Mmm... I'm undecided between Paladin and Ranger for the next campaign. I like both, although I think playing a Paladin will be a hassle because of the Oath. Especially since I've only played a couple of games so far

>>96444034
Oaths are good because they're a super easy roleplay tool. If you're wondering how your character might react to a situation, just think of that easy guideline of the oath and you've got a devout follower.

>>96443906
Hey what's up with you guys' tarot card OPs anyway? I keep seeing them in the catalog.

>>96444254
>The ritual

>>96443906
>TQ
I like to have the enemies use the weapon first. Then when the PCs get it that makes it all the more exciting.

>BTQ
I ran Sunless Citadel and the barbarian died to the first encounter of giant rats in 3.5 quite a start.

>>96444058
not paladin related, well actually a little, but when I was building my paladin and ranger I was actually really excited about Dual Wielder + Two-Weapon Fighting, but now that I look closely... Dual Wielder eats up my bonus actions and bonus actions are very necessary for both the paladin and the ranger.
maybe i should pick Defensive Duelist to increase my defense. my damage will drop a little, but I will have action bonus to put hunter mark

Has anyone ever had a player tell you, as a gm, how you should run the game?

I was playing Stormwreck Isle with my friend for the first time, he hasn't played D&D before. He got to the Myconid cave, proceeded to the room with the Strirges nest. He rolled perception, I explained to him what the nest and creatures were so he was warned in advance. He decides to approach it anyway, six Stirges appear, he fumbled his roll, I rolled and two Stirges attacked and attached themselves to his character. He was down to two health and would have died with his next turn. I gave him a chance because he was a new player and said that if he could make it back to the pool of water in time then I'll let the Stirges release him and he could heal up. He made it back, they let go and then went back to the nest room.

I received a message today saying that I should have let him drown the Stirges that were attached to him if he rolled above a 4 (?) On the D20. I explained that he would have died if they were still attached and that I helped him out but he doesn't seem to like that.

Am I in the wrong here?

>>96446003
No, your player is a cunt. You gave him a chance to live and he took it. You made a ruling in the moment and players need to accept that. He'll only get worse unless you clamp down hard on his bullshit.

>>96446003
>Has anyone ever had a player tell you, as a gm, how you should run the game?
Yes, and I’ve done the same for other DMs in my group when I’ve been a player. Sometimes, you see things from the player side that the DM doesn’t, simply because the DM has so much else to track. That advice has been invaluable over the years, helping us all to become better at the role of game master.

>Am I in the wrong here?
In this particular case, though, no. If he wanted to try to drown the stirges, he should have declared that intention at the time. You could then determine whether or not his plan of action made sense and then potentially assign a DC and let him roll for it.

>>96446003
Mmm... well, my GM sometimes confuses the 2014 5e rules with the 2025 ones. I let it slide during the game but remind him afterward.
> Well, you're actually wrong, GM. Check out these pages in the 2024 Adventurer's Guide.
Anyway, i blame WOTC for not just changing the name, even though they've changed a lot.
If they had called it 5.5e or something, it would have saved me a lot of trouble.

>>96446061
>If they had called it 5.5e or something, it would have saved me a lot of trouble.
Yeah, but then people would have stopped buying new 2014 books in anticipation of the rules being different.

>Imploring your deity's aid requires you to use your action. Describe the assistance you seek, and roll percentile dice. If you roll a number equal to or lower than your cleric level, your deity intervenes.
In practice do most DMs tweak Divine Intervention rules? 10-15% chance to have mommy/daddy in the sky help you sounds pretty busted

>>96444034
Play Paladin if you wish to have a clear, defined role within a group, drive RP and be one of the most mechanically diverse class. Play Ranger if you wanna be a worse fighter who talks to plants sometimes

>>96446405
Most DMs just stop their campaigns once it hits that point anyway since it requires effort and creativity to run a high tier game

>>96446003
Your player is retarded, but that's par for the course. You shouldn't have fed him a solution and just let him die. Next time he would understand that actions can have deadly consequences and to find better ways to deal with things than to just run up and hit them.

>>96446405
No, it basically almost never works anyway

>>96446061
>Oh, thanks! We're sticking to the 2014 rule for that, though.

is there any alternative to dndbeyond for character sheets that works well with roll20/foundry?
i'm playing for the first time, was going well until i had to pick a subclass and they are all paywalled. the only ones i found so far are aurora (seems outdated) and fight club 5e, but that's on mobile

Why does taking a short rest of an hour heal my wounds

>>96447788
Your party takes a fat shit and a nap.

>>96447788
Your party has a drink and jerks off.

>>96447612
just type stuff in? why would you pay to unlock text

>>96447880
i'm not going to that's exactly why i'm asking. just wondering if there are any others that integrate like beyond20 allows, since i'm new to dnd and it helps a lot

>>96447901
5e tools in the OP has a foundryvtt solution on their home page

ill be honest though, im not sure if it has character sheet stuff though

>>96447928
i'll take a look, thank you anon

>>96447788
same reason that taking a long rest of 8 hours heals your wounds

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>>96447788
You recover your will to live.

>>96448120
Spending time with the annoying wizard should incur a loss of hit points

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>>96447788
The same way clerics can heal you with just a few words.

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>>96448399
>encourages you with praise
vs
>berates you to get your shit together
which way, fighting man?

>>96448476
i chose antisocial bonk everything

>>96448476
Bitch, you have three arms.

>>96447519
Nah, he treats 2014 and 2025 as different editions. He doesn't let us use classes, subclasses, or races from 2014, for example.
Anyway, I try to be as uncondescending as possible, even adding a
>Well, anyway, you're the GM, I won't have any problem with your decision.

Hii. I'm a newbie to /tg/. Is there any place for anon-led D&D played online over discord or something?
I don't have any friends but i'd like to try the ttrpg genre. I'm not horribly autistic but i am ESL(white).

>>96448962
>Not blending his own version that uses what he likes from each as well as his preferred homebrew material
Absolute dogshit DM

>>96449502
You sound new on 4chan.

>>96449663
I've been browsing mostly /v/, /a/ and /x/. Sry for being too formaly idk if i should've said something more along the veins of

Hello my NIGGERS where can a newfren tfw ttrpg with bros? desu

>>96449688
>formaly
formal*

>>96449688
>Hello my NIGGERS where can a newfren tfw ttrpg with bros? desu
try reddit

>>96449688
>/v/, /a/ and /x/
you could have just said you're underage

>>96449502
No, and you don't want to play with the retards here anyway. Just make a free account on roll20 and find an online game there. We can help you with the rules and character creation though. What did you want to play?

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>>96446003
Player is a tard. Nothing instantly just drowns. pic realted is for your player.

>>96449831
I'm 20 rn but i started browsing during pandemic.
>>96449897
Will do! Mostly just D&D bc it's really prominent in online culture. Seems like a lot of fun, too.

>>96450035
>I'm 20 rn but i started browsing during pandemic.
I only play with people over 35

>>96450048
that's fair.

>>96447612
>>96447928
>>96447969
Plutonium imports creatures, items, etc. and can add features (race/species, background, class) to create character sheets; it doesn't import whole character sheets from some other source.

thoughts on milestone leveling?

>>96450805
you should use XP and levels to encourage players to do the things the campaign is about

in order for this to work, they must know where they will get milestones

>>96444058
You gave me the idea that maybe I can copy that idea of the paladin and transfer it to my other PC... I could give him a series of rules that shape his character so I can guide myself on how he reacts in certain situations and keep it consistent.

>>96450842
>encourage players to do the things the campaign is about
Funny. One of my players said story-based leveling is better because it disencourages murderhobo behavior.

Personally, I think there are others (arguably better) ways to keep the campaign on course without XP. Besides, milestone leveling makes it easier to balance stuff and it's one less thing to keep track of.

>>96451068
Everyone who hates XP leveling has never tried it

>>96451094
Everyone has "tried XP". It's the industry standard. If you play video games you know how XP works. So it's more like the opposite: everyone who hates milestone leveling has never tried it. Not saying you hate it, of course.

>>96451094
I’ve tried it multiple times and it is shit. Nobody wants to track a bunch of annoying numbers when you can just give level ups when it’s appropriate. It also encourages people to focus on goals rather than killing every monster for XP.

>>96451094
tried both xp and milestone and my experience so far has been a majority of players dont really care
but as a DM, xp just feels like milestone with extra steps, since you usually want to make it so both combat and non-combat encounters are viable forms of xp and you end up fiddling with the numbers to make it so they end up with about the progression you want them to have
so you could simplify it by making it so that they just get a fixed amount of xp regardless of how much or how little the killed
and then you can simplify it further by just levelling them up after X or so sessions

If my DM ran milestones i would double down on killing things even if it's pointless or even detrimental to myself. All my characters are warrior males and have baki-like philosophy on fighting so you cant accuse me of metagame ever.

>>96451143
Most nu-players are bombarded by anti xp propaganda from the moment they watch a dnd video
>>96451165
>numbers are le icky
Female post
>>96451235
Xp gives a very clear direction for players to gain power and influence. Milestone is just railroading, most players that could put effort into the game immediately check out once milestone is mentioned. It just means the DM has everything pre written and will level you up when convenient
>xp is milestone with extra steps
Only if you play the game incorrectly

>>96451262
>Female post
Your claim was anyone who tries XP prefers it. I’m telling you now me and my group tried it and found it was more hassle than it was worth. Play however you want but don’t think you can enforce your bullshit on other people’s tables. I would suggest all new DMs avoid XP as it is a trap mechanic that encourages murder hoboing.

>>96451262
>It just means the DM has everything pre written and will level you up when convenient
I mean, the DM will fuck you up if he wants with or without XP. XP leveling might give you the illusion it's not the DM who chooses when you level, but it's just that, an illusion. If he wants he'll just add more or less encounters with more or less enemies so you get more or less XP. It's entirely up to him no matter what.

>>96451262
>most players that could put effort into the game immediately check out once milestone is mentioned
not really my experience so far, player retention has been decent
they arent really playing to get level higher, they are playing just to play the game

> It just means the DM has everything pre written and will level you up when convenient
yeah, thats not really too different from playing with xp
most campaigns will generally have you end up at a certain level by the end of it, hence why gamebooks have level X-Y printed on the front, if you play them as intended and tally up all the xp they get, they will end up at Y
this is pretty much just milestone xp with extra steps

even back in DnD days with gold as xp, you generally got a fixed amount of loot and therefore a fixed amount of xp
you only really got more xp then intended if you ripped out everything not nailed down and then sold them and you only didnt hit the expected xp at the end if your players were being really stingy and ignoring all the silver plates and cutlery that was sellable

>Only if you play the game incorrectly
in my experience, playing with milestones is pretty identical to playing with xp and simplifies everything

>>96451262
i prefer XP because it helps me connect to the dream that i might play high level games outside of one shots

>>96451262
>Xp gives a very clear direction for players to gain power and influence.
Not really, no, as there's no clear way of knowing what non-combat interactions will and won't grant XP. I've also seen DMs claim that enemies that run away don't grant XP, resulting it being unclear whether ANY choice will result in the gaining of power and influence.

>>96451258
>player gets even more invested into roleplaying his character when DM adopts milestone leveling
working as intended

I started playing for the first time. It's nice.

>>96451312
Because your group is female brained
>>96451328
Not a problem if you play the game correctly, the DM should not plan every encounter before the session
>>96451341
>confuses player retention with player involvement
Yup, classic wannabe-author DM
>>96451348
Based, also a common occurrence with enlightened XP loving DM’s
>>96451394
Rolling a persuasion check or a deception check should not grant the same XP as delving a dungeon or fighting life threatening monsters

>>96451068
>One of my players said story-based leveling is better because it disencourages murderhobo behavior.
Yes. XP for killing monsters encourages players to kill monsters in order to get XP. If that isn't what the campaign is about, then you shouldn't reward XP for killing monsters.

>>96451328
>I mean, the DM will fuck you up if he wants with or without XP. XP leveling might give you the illusion it's not the DM who chooses when you level, but it's just that, an illusion. If he wants he'll just add more or less encounters with more or less enemies so you get more or less XP. It's entirely up to him no matter what.
dont tell the playerlet truths he cannot understand, he's still in the cave staring at shadows

>>96451562
If you plan every encounter then you are not DM’ing correctly

>96451519
>the DM should not plan every encounter before the session
>>96451562
>he's still in the cave staring at shadows
he is so fucking clueless

>>96451578
>If you plan every encounter then you are not DM’ing correctly
Let's follow this logic playerlet. If you don't plan every counter, do you use an encounter table? If so, who made that encounter table?

>>96451582
>milestonetard can’t even quote correctly
Kek, there are numerous benefits to XP (proper pacing of PC power to ingame effort and events, providing actual mechanical drive to really adventuring) but as you are a milestone tard you will continue railroading checked out players who “do it for the social aspect”, likely high

>>96451600
>he needs an encounter table
>with an entire bestiary and on-the-fly balancing system
Have you ever actually ran a game? I DM’d before I ever played, just asking honestly here. What do you do if during one of your forced “beach episodes” the players seek out actual adventure that you didn’t plan? Do you stall and waffle about for a few hours?

>>96449688
I cringed so hard I chipped a tooth.

>>96451617
>on-the-fly balancing system
didn't have to say anything else to prove you never played or dmed 5e

>>96451519
>confuses player retention with player involvement
even if we go by that one, then player involvement is still pretty good
most players arent actually playing for high scores or for levelling up, they play for the moment to moment encounters, whether it be fighting or trying to argue with the guards

would playing for xp solely by killing change things for them?
maybe not consciously, they would still do what they do now
but they would definitely do more actions that they know would reward xp
they wouldnt contemplate solutions like "talk the guard into leaving his post instead of killing him" if killing the guard gave more xp

>>96451635
It works fine if you understand it, but I know there are many YouTubers who say it is bad and I know that’s the point you’re coming from
>>96451637
Just run an honest xp game, you will notice an immediate jump in player involvement beyond waiting for you to throw the next obvious hook for them to look up from their phones and respond to

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can we have 3 different generals already

>>96451671
Troonns, fags+women, and high T men play like this respectively

>>96451654
>you will notice an immediate jump in player involvement beyond waiting for you to throw the next obvious hook for them to look up from their phones and respond to
i have ran both, and my players generally dont really care, they tend to have fun regardless
but there is a noticeable increase in single-minded problem solving once you reward certain actions more than others

handing out xp based on tasks completed rather than solely killing smooths it out
if the town wants goblins gone, then you get xp whether you killed them, trapped them, or convinced them to jump off a bridge
which is just one step removed from just milestone levelling

>>96451684
>I am a manly man, I play for the simulation
>but for some reason, I choose 5e to do it
yeah you clearly are

>>96451690
> which is just one step removed from just milestone levelling
Not true at all, actually. Again I beg you to actually run an honest xp game and not just lazily assign power when you feel like it’s been enough time

>>96449688
welp I'm out boys we're cooked

>>96451695
What about 5e prevents you from running a game with simulation in mind? Or are you saying that your system of choice is inherently faggy and inflexible?

>>96451519
>Because your group is female brained
>Repeats the same argument ignoring everything else I said
I accept your concession.

For other people's benefit the argument that milestone encourages railroading is fallacious. There is a difference between railroading which involves forcing players to follow a particular path and putting in invisible barriers when they don't and giving level ups as they accomplish important tasks. You don't want it to be a sandbox where there is no direction or story but you also don't want it to be a railroad where you take away player agency.

If people on here want to get something out of this conversation beyond some retard spouting a bunch of one sentence arguments to shit up the general have a read through this pdf. https://www.mediafire.com/file/9iqsz2riqgoa1z8/Sandbox_Railroading_Tracks_in_the_Sand.pdf/file it discusses the continuum between sandboxes and railroading.

>>96451094
So many DMs regurgitate reddit-tier advice about XP and many of the other core gameplay loops of D&D without ever having played corectly. I personally prefer XP for gold, but XP for encounters is still preferable to milestone railroad slop. An open sandbox randomly generated mostly on the fly, with rolls out in the open, enforcing strict time-keeping, without any pre-determined narrative, and played in character as much as possible is a higher level of game that these people cannot fathom.

>>96451729
lol reddit baby saw the word railroading once and know think it applies to everything he doesnt like
protip retard: just because a game isnt an endless sequence of 6 kobolds in a white room doesnt mean there is a "predetermined narrative". Just because you prepare the situations doesnt mean you limit the outcomes.

>>96451716
There is no difference as an “important task” if an entirely nebulous definition that is up to the DM which always ends up being “eh, enough sessions have passed you get a level up”. The milestone DM is occasionally aware that higher level ups should take longer, but as their “adventures” tend to be mostly downtime it does not matter
>>96451729
God speed. I remember when I joined a milestone group and ran a real game for them. You could see the fire ignite in their eyes, went from barely playing 3 hour sessions to a 12 hour session that extended into 3 AM once. Beautiful game

>>96451700
>honest xp game
Which is only rewarded with killing things. Any disagreement to my post is just reiterating what anon said. You don't even know what you're arguing about.

>>96451709
>What about 5e prevents you from running a game with simulation in mind? Or are you saying that your system of choice is inherently faggy and inflexible?
You try to act like an OG grognard despite being younger than 25 and wanna brag about playing a "real game" but you play the most babymode system ever conceived. It's the equivalent of trying to wargame with barbie dolls and yelling "IM NOT GAY" constantly

>>96451690
>which is just one step removed from just milestone levelling
What matters isn't XP versus milestone, it is transparency. If the players know in advance that they will receive XP/milestone rewards for doing certain things, they will do them.

The problem with your approach is it locks the players into predefined quests. XP directs them towards killing monsters, yes, which is why D&D originally gave XP primarily for collecting GP, since the core gameplay loop was going into the dungeon to loot it.

You could repurpose the XP mechanic to, say, provide the players with XP based on groups/armies they recruit to fight the Darkspawn, which would allow them to try to recruit groups you hadn't thought they would try to recruit, and be rewarded for it, and know even without asking you that they will be rewarded for it.

>>96451758
Read the rest of my posts, XP is one component to a fluid ruleset that makes it work. Most milestone DMs are already ignoring most of the other rules (like how downtime is actually supposed to work) and just play everything like a minute-by-minute living simulator, except you are living in a poorly plotted out novel

>>96451768
I am advocating for playing 5e as it was designed, how does that make me a grognard? Have you even read the phb?
>>96451769
Well put

>>96451700
>Again I beg you to actually run an honest xp game and not just lazily assign power when you feel like it’s been enough time
there really isnt a difference between levelling people up every third session vs giving them 400xp over the course of three sessions

pre-made scenarios could easily be run as milestones, because the amount of xp they give from encounters is very carefully curated to ensure you end up at roughly the right level at the end

>>96451789
If you have the amount of XP they can earn planned befofe each session and never deviate then you may as well play milestone yes. You are running the game incorrectly still, but at least the rate of power growth will be better paced and in-setting influence gain can naturally develop

>>96451757
I had the same experience with my players. I introduced 1:1 time at the same time and suddenly no one wanted to stop playing, players are off setting up crazy schemes during downtime, and they're constantly talking about the game outside of the session.

>>96451757
Making killing monsters the main source of advancement encourages murder hobo parties. The other XP rewards are also a DM judgement. If you don’t trust your DM enough to give level ups at appropriate milestones how can you trust him to run the game? There is an element of trust in any game between player and DM. Milestones work much better for my group and judging from the reaction you’re getting that’s true for many people.

>>96451729
>An open sandbox randomly generated mostly on the fly, with rolls out in the open, enforcing strict time-keeping, without any pre-determined narrative, and played in character as much as possible is a higher level of game that these people cannot fathom.
Sounds boring af. Imagine playing dnd and never having a murder mystery to solve, a royal reception to influences the nobles, a guild to infiltrate to find evidence of corruption, a bank to rob, or a prisonner to break out of jail.

>>96451777
>Read the rest of my posts
This isn't reddit, retard
>>96451701
yesp

>>96451789
I guess you could argue there's a psychological aspect to seeing number going up and feeling like you're progressing in that game, but there are other ways to capture that feeling as a DM too. It's not exclusive to XP.

What exactly makes milestone leveling campaigns have more "downtime" than XP leveling campaigns?

>>96451852
neither has any impact on campaign pacing.

>>96451818
It really is magical what a difference playing the game correctly can make
>>96451820
> If you don’t trust your DM enough to give level ups at appropriate milestones how can you trust him to run the game?
It is not a question of trust, but a basic understanding that not every DM is a master writer and game designer, most milestone DMs do so because it is the path of least resistance. They hand out level ups when it seems like the players have “done enough” or it has simply been a long time. These form bad habits where the game continually devolves into low intensity sessions as players just shuffle towards whatever the DM narrates last. I saw more player engagement with my crappy xp based games from middle school than the enthusiastic, but ploddingly paced milestone games I see now. XP puts the pace in the players hands, and many DMs are afraid of that but the game becomes something amazing when you do that. It is easy to award players for non combat solutions, but it is unfortunately easier to just hand wave it all.
>Milestones work much better for my group and judging from the reaction you’re getting that’s true for many people.
Because it is the popular consensus yes, and also you definition of success is player retention which is bottom of the barrel really.

>>96451757
>>96451818
Man I would love to run or play in a combat heavy game where you just clear our dungeons and fortresses and have epic fights. My current group are all theater kids who would rather talk to and reason with every enemy. It's fun in its own way, but I would rather be playing a different system with them.

>>96451852
Players in milestone campaigns have no incentive to get off their fictional asses and do anything other than what the DM lays out. It leads to a lack of energy and motivation that puts even more emphasis on the already overburdened DM to keep up the pace
>>96451834
That anon is misled, a proper sandbox has pre-created elements within it as well. It’s what separates tabletop from a computer game, the ability to blend both seamlessly.

>>96451834
These are all things that have happened in my games, and they come up during the sessions without any planning on my part. When you roll 20 thugs for an encounter, they aren't just 20 stat blocks in a vacuum. They're part of that corruption the party could infiltrate or whatever connection you make to the world you've generated so far.

>>96451884
Just make the enemies Nazis, nothing riles up a theater kid into glorious combat more than that

>>96451910
That's very true, they are all (unsurprisingly) leftists and would love nothing more than to take down an evil corporation or oppressive regime. Maybe when I get a seat in the DMs chair again.

>>96451881
Seems to me like you’ve invented some sort of strawman milestone DM which is far from the reality. Milestones are difficult.
>Oh you beat the dragon great here’s a level up
>You finished the dungeon well done here’s a level up
>You revealed the baron’s plot and got him arrested have a level up
I’ve never seen XP increase player engagement. What you’re talking about is railroading which is different to milestone XP. You can easily run a sandbox or open play game using milestone level ups.

>you definition of success is player retention which is bottom of the barrel really.
>you definition
Nta and work on your English esk kun

>>96451945
*aren’t difficult
Guess I should work on my English too

>>96451904
That's why I said mostly. When you roll up a hex with a monster lair, you connect the monster activity to other things that have come up in the game. I know that the boss is at the end of a dungeon if the players decide to go there, but most of the things in between aren't pre-planned, including if the boss even wants to fight the players.

>>96451904
>Players in milestone campaigns...
That sounds like a group problem. Do your friends not enjoy playing D&D or something?

>>96451904
Great. I don't want randomness and endless Marvel-tier banter occupying game time that could actually progress the story I want to tell and that my players are invested in. Maybe that's what milestone leveling is for?

>>96451945
Because you fundamentally don’t understand how to use XP, as shown by your previous responses. Yes those are decent milestones, but the problem I am highlighting is there is no inherent consistency to a milestone. From milestone game to milestone game I have observed both satisfying milestone level ups and completely random ones that only occurred because it had been a while since the last level up (I once earned a level up from 9 to 10 after fighting two non-deadly encounters between 5 sessions).

>>96451955
Yes I saw your subsequent posts, spot on
>>96451974
It was a social activity until I introduced proper xp play, then they really got into it. Even the rp lovers enjoyed it more
>>96451976
You want people to experience your novel with the least resistance possible, that is what milestone is for yes

>>96451908
>These are all things that have happened in my games, and they come up during the sessions without any planning on my part.
yes im sure the murder mystery was extremely satisfying

>>96451984
I understand your argument. You don’t trust the DM to provide appropriate pacing and milestones. This makes you sound like the group’s
>that guy
Whining and throwing a fit because you don’t trust your DM enough. You sound like the kind of player I’d filter out at the interview stage. Try to have a little more belief that the DM is trying to run a fun game for everyone and stop being so judgmental.

What is with all this autism surrounding novels and theatre kids?

>>96451991
>you slayed a dragon and you level up
>you slayed a dragon and you got 1200xp to level up

>>96451984
That's entirely on your DM. He has the choice of making a level up as climatic as possible, but he didn't. Retards misusing a tool doesn't make the tool bad.

>>96452020
All it takes to run mystery are some clues and a little misdirection. I've had humanoids come up on my encounter tables along with the encountered creature is already dead on the complication table that I've made. When the players get really interested in the dead thing you switch into mystery mode and start making connections to NPCs that the players have interacted with.

>>96452020
NTA, but its a nice change of pace after the last 2 sessions were straightforward kill gauntlets

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>>96451768
>but you play the most babymode system ever conceived.

isn't there someone you forgot to ask?

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What's the point of the GoO warlock's ability to not use components on their illusion and enchantment spell if they're still required to use the Material component? With subtle spell you can actually do shenanigans without them knowing it's you since there's no component requirements at all, now you'll have to do an Alec Guinness obvious handmotion as you present your material for the spell and it will be obvious that you did it. (Unless you can just touch the material component while it's in your pocket since you don't require somatic component??)

>>96452025
Who said I whined and threw a fit, seems like you’re the one inventing a person to be upset at here. In milestone games I try my best to be active and involved, and that means reminding other players of what information they missed (usually checked out) and encouraging people to follow the trail to the next milestone. I have tried approaching it the same way one might approach an xp game, looking for rumors or exploring off obvious path, but such things rarely lead to interesting results in milestone games.
>>96452035
The idea of treating dnd like a storybook to be explored page by page is the most common way to play and often leads to DM burnout and player dissatisfaction, as seen with the rise of paid DMing
>>96452047
The only guidance given for milestone leveling is “When it feel appropriate”, to milestone players it always feels appropriate because leveling up is cool. Milestone dnd is basically a puzzle game where finding what the dm constitutes as good enough is the real adventure. Sometimes you find a really interesting piece and get a level earlier than intended or you’re taking too long to piece it together and the dm just does it for you
>>96452043
Must have been a small dragon or a large party

>>96452077
Material component only requires you have the material, somatic implies hand morion

>>96452078
>page by page is the most common way to play and often leads to DM burnout and player dissatisfaction
I have literally the opposite experience, where players generally prefer being able to progress on their own terms instead of being railroaded into killing everything or stealing everything

>>96452078
>Must have been a small dragon
A young green dragon is worth 3900
A party of 4 would actually get less than 1200 each

In any case, unless you are providing a lot more henchmen to get xp off of, milestones and pure xp get you basically the same thing, which is a level up and treasure

>>96451991
>group problem
called it

>>96452099
If you want a greater breadth of options then assign xp for non combat solutions, the same book that offers milestone as an optional rule also offers this.
>>96452122
>young green dragon
Like a said, a small dragon (technically Large)
>>96452128
Across multiple groups and echo’d by many, but I’m sure your friends choosing to hang out with you is a sure fire sign your game is amazing

xp vs milestone is the coke vs pepsi debate of 5e

>>96452177
>then assign xp for non combat solutions
So it becomes something up to a DM judgment call again? I thought you didn’t trust them yo make decisions.

>>96452198
the more important question is how frequently is your group leveling up

>are you hardstuck lv 8 or are you allowed to escape into the higher levels?

>>96452202
Everything outsmarted or socially domesticated has a statblock, anon

>>96452086
>The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them, but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any.
says here you "must have a free hand to access them" implying you need to touch them

>>96452198
Xp being coke, the better drink that everyone prefers, but are often stuck with milestone Pepsi instead.

>>96452177
>multiple groups
Why are you being kicked out of multiple groups?
>echoed by many
Why are you playing with so many different people? Why don't your friends play D&D with you?

>>96452067
The point is a good mystery, plot, grand evil scheme is setup for the players to uncover, not randomly rolled on the spot oh the green slaad was killed by the beholder because reasons.
All these tryhard fags saw one youtube video about railroading and thought that means they can never prepare anything ever because that means the dm is interfering. That's not what railroading is.

>>96452221
Yes, but where and when it applies to non combat solutions is a DM call.
>The rogue sneaks past an army
>The wizard casts invisibility and fly and flies over an army
Do they get XP for the entire army? Obviously not.

>>96452177
>If you want a greater breadth of options then assign xp for non combat solutions, the same book that offers milestone as an optional rule also offers this.
Milestones are just a further abstraction that accomplishes the same thing
Since a milestone level up for telling the bad guys to pack up and leave is the same as levelling up from getting enough xp for a level up for doing the same

My half-orc barbarian thog kill monsters, become stronger. thog no like talky talky people, talky talky no make thog stronger.

>>96452231
Huh, interesting, I guess the GOO is meant to look like he’s fiddling in his pants while casting his free subtle spell then
>>96452238
I do play games with my friends, but games can end for many reasons. Moving, COVID, and most commonly the milestone DM being burnt out and giving up, usually citing a lack of player engagement and what not

>>96452234
Literally 100% of the people I know who have played with both preferred milestone leveling because there was less chaff.

Is the process for nick+vex two weapon fighting attacking once with a scimitar (action), once with a shortsword (same action) then once for free at advantage with nick (twf)?
So if I am concentrating on shadow blade in one hand, I still have to routinely bonus action attack due to not using a nick weapon?

>>96452248
That's why we asked you to go to the arena, Thog. We need to talk to the magistrates about the slave ring happening in the ghetto, but we also need coin to buy provisions for the next leg of our trek. The bard will take care of the talking, you go shed blood and earn coin, the rest of us will try and find a decent crew that won't immediately die when we inevitably get ambushed next.

XP leveling is even better in Pathfinder 2

>>96452245
They get XP for the sentries they snuck past, unless the entire army is in the viewing gallery watching for the rogue
>>96452246
You can scroll up through the thread and see why just treating XP as a replacement for milestones is inherently better than straight milestone leveling, even if being played incorectly

>>96452289
...okay, thog go and kill arena monsters.

>>96452292
How so?

>>96452292
pf2e leveling is shitass poop

>>96452261
OK, but why are you being kicked out of so many games that you have multiple groups that fall apart when you DM? You keep blaming "milestone DMs" but the from what you've said the group lasts until you start DMing and now you have multiple groups. What's going here?

>>96452265
Why would an encounter be considered chaff?

>>96452325
Hit a nerve, huh?

>>96452326
Because not every encounter is something meaningful or enjoyable.

>>96452325
He’s clearly the That Guy of every group he’s been in. He denies it but I don’t believe him.

>>96452318
i'm not sure as I've never played it

>>96452349
Seems like it when you couldn't answer my question.

>>96452350
Why? Sounds like a DM skill issue over anything

>>96452294
>You can scroll up through the thread and see why just treating XP as a replacement for milestones is inherently better than straight milestone leveling
All I see is that levelling based on number of sessions is not any different than tallying up the amount of xp you get the end of each session

Killing a green dragon gives you a set amount of xp, since you know how much xp the players need to level up, you can add or remove henchmen whether you want them to level up or not
Milestones just has them level up for completing beating the green dragon and all his henchmen if you see fit
The only time xp per encounter really affects the outcome is if you just have way more encounters than you expect your players to stumble into and they do it anyways
But that could easily be accounted for with milestones

>>96452353
Don't spoil the answer, anon. Now we won't get a spergout.

>>96452369
>All I see is that levelling based on number of sessions is not any different than tallying up the amount of xp you get the end of each session
The difference is between simply playing a session and actually accomplishing things in that session

And once again, not every session should be completely pre-planned

>>96452366
Because sometimes you play a game set in an especially hostile world where not every fight that could possibly happen feels worthwhile to the overall pace of the game or otherwise would give so little XP that it wouldn't hardly contribute to the next level.
Milestones are good for games where you're shaking, moving, and accomplishing things consistently. I don't need the game to regulate itself for me or for the DM to have to regulate XP amounts. Milestones are often self-evident.

>>96452382
>The difference is between simply playing a session and actually accomplishing things in that session
Awarding xp for killing a dragon that leads to a level up is just a distinction without a difference for giving them a level up at the end of the session if it ended with the killing of the dragon

>And once again, not every session should be completely pre-planned
If people are levelling up faster than expected due to completing more encountere per session and getting more xp
Thats not really different from breaking a milestone into 2 different milestones
Or vice versa, slowing down your milestones if they are progressing slowly, which is the same as people getting less xp out of each session

>>96452390
Good thing the game provides guidance on how to create meaningful encounters for any level, and any encounter can be tied into your characters goals relatively easily by the person who controls 99% of the setting. XP is to provide clear guidance on how players can achieve power and drive their stories, milestone is just following the DM around. It can still be fun sure, and there are certainly people who appreciate a more low effort game, but I’ve seen cases where people who would say such things suddenly switch on when presented an honest xp game

>>96452409
Yes XP can lead milestones being achieved, and like I have said many, many times to you that the method they achieved a level up allows players to make actual decisions in a game and incite them to seek out adventure beyond what is plainly presented. Your main argument is
>XP also levels people up, doesn’t that make it like milestone leveling
And I have said the numerous other reasons they are not the same. But yes, if you level up it is like leveling up
>A milestone DM can pace according to encounters
Pacing according to what then?

>>96452419
>milestone is just following the DM around
Which is what XP is at the end of the day but with additional number tracking. The DM already has to design all of that anyway, so it's no different from milestone in effect. It's not "low effort" just because there aren't explicit numbers tied to advancement.
>I’ve seen cases where people who would say such things suddenly switch on when presented an honest xp game
And I've seen groups who became far more invested the moment they didn't have to care about the seemingly arbitrary value in slaying enemies or accumulating wealth. Some goals are more abstract than that and can't as easily have XP tied to them. The DMG is not a great resource for how to properly balance non-combat encounters or otherwise for XP distribution. Literally anything you can do with XP can just as easily be conveyed with milestone leveling.
In the end, your experience is just as anecdotal as mine.

>>96452419
>milestone is just following the DM around
No it’s not. That’s railroading, this is not the fault of milestone levels. Using XP can be just as easily railroaded. As many people have pointed out already.

>>96452375
We’re getting a pretty magnificent spergout already. It’s nice to see the whole general so united for once.

>>96452452
>they achieved a level up allows players to make actual decisions in a game and incite them to seek out adventure beyond what is plainly presented.
Again, if it takes one session to kill a noteworthy opponent, and it grants you enough xp to level up
That isn't any different from having them level up at the end of completing that session

If they are bumping into every single encounter you put in their path and causing them to level up faster while drawing a session out into 2 sessions
Thats the same as giving two different milestone levels

>>96452461
Name a goal too abstract for XP
>>96452480
Milestone lends itself to railroading, XP does not

>>96452487
Why are you running sessions with only a single encounter? And how do you decide what a good pace is?

>>96452494
>XP does not
Yes, it does, because the DM decides what, where, and when you can fight things and can simply decide when things go down, if at all. At the end of the day, you are not getting that XP if the DM doesn't want you to.

>>96452231
why is wotc retarded? is that really the intended design?

>>96452494
XP lends itself to railroading, milestones do not*
ftfy

>>96452509
Then if a DM is running a game in that style they would be better suited to milestone, and an honest dm is better suited to xp. Work on your english

>>96452522
I didn’t know it was referred to as Milestones Leveling

>>96452494
>Name a goal too abstract for XP
A complex web of social interactions, schemes, and infiltration that all intertwine and culminate in one of many equally possible outcomes to the event is not exactly simple to assign a particular amount of XP to. Not every single possible interaction is necessarily significant to assign XP for the outcome or may be vague enough that even attempting to assign XP would tip the players off in one direction or another when the outcome of the interaction and its efficacy is meant to be a mystery.

>>96452537
You don't know a lot of things
>>96452529
Then if a DM is running a game in that style they would be better suited to XP, and an honest dm is better suited to miltaones. Work on your english.*
ftfy

>>96452543
Social interaction, schemes and infiltrations involve people or monsters being convinced, deceived and eluded, which all have statblocks. XP isn’t assigned at the outset of a “plot” but at an encounter by encounter basis. What do you do if players wish to seek out an item to help them with their schemes mid session, that may interfere with your railroad after all. XP allows a sudden encounter to be quickly balanced and appropriately rewarded, as well as handling the overall “arc” you’re going for

>>96452529
No, an honest DM can run either perfectly well because they have the integrity and internal consistency to know when the players have made significant enough accomplishments to warrant advancement. Whether you throw in a bunch of meaningless encounters or not to fill out a quota is not an inherent weakness of either milestone or XP, but XP leveling does necessitate particular and discreet encounters for the sake of bookkeeping.
As well, XP is itself an abstract resource that oftentimes poorly lines up with character ability advancement and requires further suspension of disbelief.

this retard shows up at a table and asks other players "go do this, it might give us xp"
yes if your goal as a player is to gain xp im sure using xp is the better system for you

normal players are trying to accomplish their character's goals, not leveling up

>>96452562
There just doesn't seem to be a huge difference between handing them a level after they solve all the ongoing intrigue vs calculating all the xp from each encounter and seeing that it leads to a lev up

>>96452566
We know, anon. Anybody who actually plays this game knows there isn't any difference. Can we argue about stat allotment instead?

>>96452564
> XP leveling does necessitate particular and discreet encounters for the sake of bookkeeping.
How so?
XP is a pretty accurate measure of the difficulty you are overcoming, I find it more convincing that I overcome a knight in strength after felling many beasts or solving incredibly complex schemes over whenever the DM feels like. You’re arguing that a defined ingame system is more abstract than pure DM fiat, which I don’t buy
>>96452566
Without XP to drive true player choice, accomplishing your goals is just waiting for the DM to present the solution

>>96452584
>Can we argue about stat allotment instead?
We play with strangers every week, so we use standard arrays just so that everyone is about on the same level

>>96452594
>Without XP to drive true player choice, accomplishing your goals is just waiting for the DM to present the solution
As has been mentioned, its solely a matter of presentation
Giving them a level up after several hard encounters over a period of several sessions is about the same thing as getting the xp from those encounters that leads to a level up

>>96452572
Because the nature of encounters may change throughout the session or sessions they are planned. How do you decide when something is properly solved?

>>96452595
>online vs irl debate
Naw, I'm good, but standard array is based.

>>96452562
>but at an encounter by encounter basis
And sometimes the overarching contribution of individual interactions to fulfilling a goal is not clear, and so assigning XP based on those interactions would be inappropriate. Not every interaction is overcoming a person or monster. Sometimes it's just gaining information toward a greater goal, influencing an entity one way or another, or deceiving someone temporarily. Accomplishing any of those things is not necessarily worth the entire statblock's XP total, and asking the DM to decide how much an individual interaction is worth requires further deliberation.
You're trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.
>What do you do if players wish to seek out an item to help them with their schemes mid session
They can do that just fine. The scheme they were set on is not the only potential milestone they can accomplish.
>XP allows a sudden encounter to be quickly balanced and appropriately rewarded
They can be awarded without the meta currency of XP by way of gaining treasure, social advancement/connections, or information that furthers their goals. You're putting yourself in a box and constraining your definition of what milestones can be rather arbitrarily just for the sake of having something to be set against. It's empty sophistry.

>>96452602
And as said before, presentation is providing players information, information they can use to make informed choices

Most people I see running xp end up bullshitting out an estimate for "finishing a quest" or something similar so xp is basically milestones for the average person anyways

>>96452602
That's not even a good argument because the exact same thing can be said about XP.

>>96452602
>>96452622
Shit, I'm stoned. To clarify I agree with you and am saying the anon you are replying to doesn't have a good argument.

>>96452594
>Without XP to drive true player choice, accomplishing your goals is just waiting for the DM to present the solution
wtf are you even saying you absolute moron? do you think that when players decide to do something unexpected, dms that use milestone leveling dont reward them? how retarded are you really?

>>96452614
>gaining information
Found through exploration or social deduction, your following examples are also of just social solutions that can be rewarded with XP

All of the rewards you list can be given in addition to XP anon, which defeats the need to reward xp for solving abstract problems. Again you think that explicitly not giving clear cut rewards for player action will drive informed player choice

>>96452594
>Without XP to drive true player choice, accomplishing your goals is just waiting for the DM to present the solution
Or the DM can just go with whatever direction the players choose them give a level up at an appropriate time. There is nothing unique about XP that gives players agency. All it does is encourage them to be murder hobos for Muh XP

>>96452584
>Can we argue about stat allotment instead?
What's there to argue? Most of the time it's not worth it to point-buy because it leaves you with straight up less numbers than standard array. I like rolling 3d6 for the thrill of it but no one that actually cares about their character will do that.

>>96452639
Players do a minor side objective related to the schemes, do you give them an additional level up before the scheme is solved? Do you give them an additional level up when they solve the scheme? What criteria do you use beyond “eh, why not”
>>96452636
>stoners love lazy solutions like milestone
This is known

>>96452618
>You can also award XP when characters complete significant milestones. When preparing your adventure, designate certain events or challenges as milestones, as with the following examples:

Accomplishing one in a series of goals necessary to complete the adventure.
Discovering a hidden location or piece of information relevant to the adventure.
Reaching an important destination.

When awarding XP, treat a major milestone as a high-difficulty encounter and a minor milestone as a low-difficulty encounter.

its the same in the 2014 rule set as well, you're supposed to use milestones in conjunction with xp from monsters. but you're right, most DMs just run milestones as whenever the DM feels like leveling up the group they do

>>96452594
>How so?
Because you literally have to dole out XP in measured amounts for every encounter, which necessitates tracking. If creatures and encounters aren't compartmentalized, then XP ceases functioning as a resource and its value becomes fiat currency.
>XP is a pretty accurate measure of the difficulty you are overcoming
Hardly. WOTC's statblocks are middling and inconsistent and XP equates certain creatures that have no business being equated.
>arguing that a defined ingame system is more abstract than pure DM fiat
It is, in fact, because you're resorting to completely abstracting the idea of character growth into a numbers game on top of the already gamey aspects of TTRPGs.
You do not need to kill X number of boars before you can defeat a knight.

>>96452645
It is unique in that it is a clearly defined system that gives player agency over pure DM fiat

>>96452658
If I was looking to be lazy I would have the book tell me at what XP to level up.

>>96452615
Fully informed choices are not always satisfying and XP per encounter may demystify potential intrigue by way of giving away too much information at times.

>>96452665
You can award xp at the end or during steps of a multi stage encounter, the rules cover this
You are abstracting player growth into the arbitrary choice of one person rather than a defined built-in system that tracks player growth

xp FEELS really good a lot of the time until it starts governing game play decisions.

>make a animal handling check to coax a wolf into into letting us pass since its slavers are dead
>our warlocks EBs it, because we'd only get half XP for letting it go.

Truly, a double-edged sword.

>>96452648
>we allowed someone to point buy
>immediately does 3x 15s and 3x 8s as a joke

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Any GMs present in this thread, how would you view this?
Would an avenging paladin be breaking his oath if he spared the life of a defeated enemy if it meant that leaving him alive for a while would allow him to heal the wounded and also find and defeat the real boss?
>Show the wicked no mercy.
I'm letting him live, but temporarily. and definitely not out of mercy.
>Fight injustice and its causes.
stop others like him who are doing the same thing
>Aid those harmed by injustice
Well I try to find a cure for all those he harmed.

>>96452674
Learning and applying a book is harder than listening to one guy arbitrarily say you level up because you do
>>96452679
>I know you made this choice but I am ignoring it because it interferes with my story
Milestone lends itself to railroading after all

>>96452694
>avenging paladin
Oath of Vengeance paladin

>>96452642
>that can be rewarded with XP
Not all of them should be rewarded with XP and the XP amount you would have to give out for them in that event is going to be something the DM just has to come up with anyway.
Information, treasure, and contacts are clear cut rewards that are more naturally satisfying than making a number tick up on your sheet. Why should they also get XP when they're already being rewarded with something that can be put toward further accomplishments?
If the players need a number to go up to make an informed decision, then they may be slow.

>>96452694
Why would sparing a defeated enemy buy time, they’re already defeated?

>>96452704
They should also be given XP because it is a measure of character progress, with in book rules for dealing with situations like the one you described.

>>96452683
>the rules cover this
The rules give vague guidelines on how to do this, but still require the DM to do the heavy lifting. In essence, it's no different from milestones at that point.
Not all of the steps of an encounter or interaction are should be worth their statblock's XP value and there is no set XP value for performing an infiltration, finding a rare doodad, or successfully navigating the political rigors of a dinner party with nobility.

>>96452694
Not really. The nice thing about Oath of Vengeance is that it can lean towards good or evil without it looking like you're breaking character. He is, after all, fighting the greater evil by doing that.

>>96452707
Because he knows secrets he tells in return, and that sometimes helps us give context to what we're facing.
Plus, it's because the rest of the group wanted to keep him alive as a talking head.

>>96452694
Maybe dont make it an immediate oathbreak, but have whatever god they serve make their pleasure/displeasure know
Not too direct, buy maybe something like old wounds burning as punishment for not avenging like he should

>>96452700
Yeah, so why would I have the DM arbitrarily set up XP instead of the organic progression over the character is growth?

>>96452700
Nothing is being ignored. Not telling someone how much their action contributed toward them getting stronger isn't railroading. It's just obfuscated. For example, talking down a thug who may or may not be a piece of a larger scheme will have later ramifications that are not adequately conveyed by handing out XP. XP puts a hard number on progress that can give away too much or a deceptive amount of information about the relevance of player action.
Watch the backs of those hands now.

>>96452714
Not all character progress is equal and a simple conversation has no business directly and measurably contributing to your Fighter's ability to learn how to attack multiple times per action.
It sounds like you think every action should inherently lead to class progression, which is just faulty. There are forms of character progression that go beyond leveling up, which is why the aforementioned reward of treasure, gear, information, connections, etc. are enough.
>with in book rules for dealing with situations like the one you described
No, there are vague guidelines and suggestions for that sort of thing.

XP is really good if your campaign involves shit like random encounters and side quests and fucking around but milestone is better if you decided to cut out the fluff

>>96452648
>Most of the time it's not worth it to point-buy because it leaves you with straight up less numbers
Standard array gives the same number of points as point buy. The advantage is it discourages min maxing. I only use point buy and have never run into an issue. It just gives players more choice.

>>96452799
The milestone games I've played in still involved those things, but gave rewards aside from XP in their place and it all flowed well enough.

>>96452837
>rewards aside from XP
such as?
I'm genuinely curious

>>96452837
>Rewards aside from XP
See this is the biggest issue with XP I can see. It gets people to go hunt for it. And XP is very much a meta currency. I've only ever seen it lead to meta gaming with no real advantage over milestones. Maybe if your DM is a retard it could be better but if you have a retarded DM the game has much bigger issues than whether it uses XP or milestones.

>>96452854
Your no games is showing. If you eventually get into a game remember these magic words after defeating enemies I loot the bodies

>>96452854
I know it's been mentioned in the conversation, but usually anything worth fighting has loot of some kind. Whether it be useful armor or weapons, supplies that save the group money, valuables we can sell, materials we can use to create or supplement our existing gear, valuable information about the region, etc I'd say that there is seldom a fight you can find yourself in that doesn't give you SOMETHING at least.

>>96452860
>>96452894
>I loot the bodies
how often do you actually get better gear than what you currently have?

>>96452898
It's rarely about getting better gear. Redundant gear has its uses or can just be sold if we have no other use for it. The resource loop of picking up the spoils and determining what to do with them is an enjoyable part of the activity itself.

>Unarmed Strike lets you grapple or shove a target
>Not creature, target
>Grappling and shoving require a saving throw from a target no more than one size larger than you
>The rules on breaking objects say they automatically fail saving throws
>an 8 strength elf wizard can topple or drag a large marble statue without a check

>>96452954
You are correct, the rules for 5e 2024 are written very poorly and always fall back to "if the DM says so"

>>96452504
>Why are you running sessions with only a single encounter
nta but in any group I've played in or DMed for there's been usually zero or 1-2 encounters, which is determined by what the PCs decide to do, how they engage with what the DM has prepared. If it's more than that, it's basically always a dungeon or a high-threat exploration scenario. Plus session length imposes a pretty strict limit.

>>96452898
Once you reach peak gear eg. fullplate, breastplate etc I find money is usually spent on scrolls, potions, and spell components all of which can get pricey quickly. Looting the bodies might not give better gear but it’ll give you money to spend on other things to help in future encounters. Or mitigate the cost of items used in that encounter.

>>96452954
>n 8 strength elf wizard can topple or drag a large marble statue without a check
you can only carry STR x 15 and drag STR x 30 pounds
so that block of rock is limited to 120 lbs if you intend to hoist it above you and limited to 240 lbs if you want to push it

a 240lb block of marble is about 1 cubic foot
so your anemic wizard could at best move a small statue of marble but not a whole uncut boulder

>>96452954
>>96452984
>what is carry capacity? Why can I grapple an object automatically? Ought it not struggle against me feeble arms as I attempt to hold onto the statue???

>>96452984
it actually has a stated carry capacity in the rules glossary and tells you to consult that if you ever plan on doing something like carry or drag an object as an example
with 15x and 30x your strength to lift or drag an item, respectively

also, feats of strength are determined with an athletics check with a DC determined by the DM
so if tell the DM you are going to drag a stone boulder clearly beyond what your carry capacity says you should be able to, thats when you roll to see if you can muster heroic strength to briefly move it in an inch

>>96453035
anon's example is shoving a marble pillar.

>>96453047
either dont allow it in the first place or make a very hard athletics check if they can justify how they would be able to do it

>>96453079
>either dont allow
Which circles back to >>96452984
>"if the DM says so"

2014 was simple, but at least it didn't have as many holes that the 2024 team decided didn't need filling.

>>96453095
Ability Check Examples
Ability Make a Check To...
Strength Lift, push, pull, or break something

SkillsSkill Ability Example Uses
Athletics Strength Jump farther than normal, stay afloat in rough water, or break something.

>>96453095
Toppling a heavy object is literally what an athletics check is for

>>96453047
They mentioned dragging, which is prohibited by carry capacity

What are some ways being deafened can tactically disadvantage PCs in a fight? Obviously they can't verbally share information, and I might say they automatically fail some perception checks they otherwise might have rolled for or automatically succeeded. How would you exploit a creature being deafened in D&D?

>>96453446
>and I might say they automatically fail some perception checks they otherwise might have rolled for or automatically succeeded
you could have them be hit by some magical attacks without revealing the position of the attacker outside of "it came from that direction" because they didnt hear them yell out the spells somatic component

Rangers can talk to animals and detect magic. Can fighters say the same? I don't think so.

>>96453597
>Can fighters say the same?
>I don't think
We know

>>96453597
>detect magic
Eldritch knights can…but can rangers wear heavy armor? Checkmate tree hugger

I’m about to join a level 20 5e game. Never played past level 11. What should I expect and is this going to be a disaster?

>>96452721
All of these can easily be given xp by assigning difficulty value to the encounter. Also, like you said you can also gain non progression benefits just like milestone.
>>96452733
Because it isn’t arbitrary with defined guidelines
>>96452742
You provide the xp for taking down a thug, this isn’t hard.
>>96452767
Correct, it is unequal and solved by using XP
>>96452799
Correct, XP is good for real games, milestone is for railroaded stories

>>96453848
Fuck off already you cunt

>>96452991
This is caused by milestone leveling
>dm uses “whenever I decide” leveling
>players are less invested, just do whatever until level up comes
>combats are slow an anemic, players have no incentive no keep a quick pace and accomplish multiple things per session
>combats are also drawn out because railroad incentivized milestone DMs think every encounter needs to be specifically prepped

>>96453848
It's arbitrary when the DM arbitrarily put XP in the game.

>>96454005
Nope, XP has clear rules and guidelines for potential vagaries. Arguing that a defined system is more vague than pure DM fiat is retarded

>>96454018
Arguing that any XP in the game isn't put there arbitrarily by the DM is the epitome of retardation. I don't think you know how this hobby works.

>>96454041
If you have ever opened a playwrs handbook you will notice defined XP for creatures and difficulty levels. Try running a game or putting effort in while playing one sometime

>>96453909
>dm uses “whenever I decide” leveling
this isnt very different from handing out encounters with xp in it

>players are less invested, just do whatever until level up comes
this has never been the case
players are invested in the turn-to-turn moments of gameplay more
it literally would not matter what form of levelling they use

>combats are slow an anemic, players have no incentive no keep a quick pace and accomplish multiple things per session
combat has always been limited by how skilled and how quickly the players take their turns
whether they get xp from this specific encounter or if they get their level at the end of the campaign is irrelevant

if anything my players are more willing to try non-combat solutions to encounters when there is no xp at play
and if you are rewarding your players non-combat xp in amounts equal to killing them, then this is basically what mileston levels are supposed to accomplish, rewards for playing through the adventure as a whole, not just killing enemies or looting treasure

>>96454048
If you have ever played this game then you know that nearly everything in the game is an arbitrary decision made by the DM. Again, I don't think you know how this hobby works.

>>96454054
If your argument is
>XP can accomplish what milestone can
Then I accept your concession. Because it does so with inherently better pacing, clear guidelines for players elucidation, emphasis on accomplishing defined tasks rather than waiting for a DM to decide you level up, etc. If you click through the reply chain you can see me dismantle these often repeated claims without counter argument (unless you count restating the same claim again as an argument). Milestone does not award adventuring, or awards whatever the DM considers an accomplishment. This usually comes in the form of reaching pre-planned plot points. Ultimately, at its very best milestone is a lazy emulation of XP, with none of he benefits beyond saving the group from some occasional addition.

>>96454061
Way to announce that you are a bad, lazy DM.

>>96454086
Yes, I am a lazy DM for putting encounters in my game. Why did you thi k the ohb shows the exp totals for npcs?

>>96454106
For calculating the XP in encounters you overcome them in some way

>>96454120
So you think that the exp value of every single npc in the game is in the phb? Why?

>>96454076
>If your argument is
>XP can accomplish what milestone can
more like the kind of vast disconnect in gameplay you keep saying is real just isnt in my experience
players rarely care about the exact number of xp they have and generally perceive game length in the number of sessions they have rather than the encounters they have in each session

> Milestone does not award adventuring, or awards whatever the DM considers an accomplishment.
milestones are just a fixed way to advance the players after they have adventured enough and accomplish the same basic thing granular xp does, which is that you will be so-and-so levels after so-and-so sessions

>Ultimately, at its very best milestone is a lazy emulation of XP,
it is just a more abstract way to measure player advancement and arguably ties more into their perception of how long they have been playing than
you almost cant tell the difference between milestone, per-session xp, and per every single action you do xp

>>96452073
>isn't there someone you forgot to ask?
System's ok.

>>96454175
There are rules for assigning XP values to custom creatures. Have you read any of the books?
>>96454179
>I haven’t noticed a difference
Because you haven’t run an honest game using XP, the idea of an unplanned encounter continually confuses you

I know what a milestone is, pure DM fiat

>XP is more abstract than DM fiat
How?

>>96454235
So it's an arbitrary decision by the DM to assign an arbitrary value to every single npc in thw game? Why did you think the exp value of npcs are listed in the phb?

>>96454275
It isn’t arbitrary, there are rules on how much to assign. Again, have you actually DM’d before?

>https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/2017_UAMassCombat_MCUA_v1.pdf
Have any of you fuckers used the UA Mass Combat rules?
I've been thinking of trying em out for a war drama campaign, but im not sure.

>>96454787
Yes. They're terrible. I recommend reading Chainmail and adapting those rules to 5E. Representing groups of units and attacks as pools of hit dice while allowing time to zoom in on player character battles using standard combat is the way.

>>96453909
>This is caused by milestone leveling
Uh, no? This has been my experience regardless of whether the game uses XP or milestone levelling.

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can Battlerager Barbarian ever be salvaged? I just want to backflip into people with prickly armor

>>96451820
>The other XP rewards are also a DM judgement.
Create a transparent set of rules that the players can use to anticipate if they will get XP for something, and how much, and you will discover that XP rewards do not have to be "a DM judgement." If XP rewards are just "a DM judgement," then players will not engage with them, because they will either a) annoyingly ask you if/how much XP they will get for doing X thing they are considering doing, or b) just assume they'll get magic XP pinatas somehow and fuck around at the magic item shop all session. It isn't about "trusting" the DM: it's that you cannot formulate plans to get XP, if you do not know what will get you XP.

XP is an INCREDIBLY powerful motivator for PC behavior. Your entire proclaimed issue with it is that it is a powerful motivator of player behavior, encouraging murderhobo parties!

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3/6 people showed up for D&D, session cancelled again

>>96456033
3 is enough to play. They ought to be rewarded for showing up

>>96456033
2-player one-shot?

>>96456084
>>96456100
DM said it wasn't enough to play so, oh well, better luck next week I guess

>>96452688
>xp FEELS really good a lot of the time until it starts governing game play decisions.
>>96452856
>See this is the biggest issue with XP I can see. It gets people to go hunt for it.
What the fuck are you idiots talking about? The whole fucking POINT of rewarding XP for doing things is to encourage players to do those things!

Holy shit, 5e really does cause brain damage.

>>96455997
the motivator for pc behavior in my campaigns is the pc's objectives and goals and traits, not some metagamey currency
>let's do this because we might level up if we do
if you say this in my game you are out

>>96456156
And what the base game awards XP for is wanton killing. Nothing else automatically is assumed to provide XP. So, if you want to encourage players to do anything other than murderhobo, you either have to discard XP or rewrite the entire XP system to clarify what will and will not grant XP.

>>96456190
And that involves seeking out dangerous locations and fighting stronger monsters

>>96456208
>And that involves seeking out dangerous locations and fighting stronger monsters
The game isnt only about fighting monsters.

>>96452073
Look at those dicksucking lips.

>>96456033
IRL or online? Because if it's IRL, that's the perfect chance to have a board game night. Or have another system/one shot in your back pocket.

>>96456255
>exploring dangerous locations (dungeons
>fighting terrible monsters (dragons)

>>96456605
online

>>96456033
the same thing happened to me and I just decided to cull the two players with the shittiest attendance and run the game with whoever was there. We have to be respectful of each other's time or this shit won't work

>>96456255
what else gives XP, then?

>>96453848
>can easily be given xp by assigning difficulty value to the encounter
Which means the DM has to make up a number anyway. There is no clear guideline in the book for assigning a static XP number to a complex series of tasks.
>provide the xp for taking down a thug
I said TALK down a thug, which is not necessarily the same difficulty as defeating one in battle. You didn't take down the thug and that conversation may have larger ramifications than the simple act of defeating a thug even if you did. In this event, the XP number on the thug's statblock would be inaccurate and irrelevant to the overall goal of the players.

Anyone know any neat resoures to make custom monster stat cards? I am preparing a boss encounter for next session and wanted to have his stat card on hand (he has several legendary and mythic actions etc).
>>96456685
In my campaign we do milestone leveling and I've found it a lot more rewarding. Also makes veteran characters in our campaign really stand out more as they've got actual accomplishments behind them. We play a kind of West Marches campaign (there is an overarching narrative but we have 20 players and 3 DMs so... yeah)

>>96454076
All you've done is talk in circles and blatantly ignore the points leveled against you by repeating yourself. You haven't dismantled shit and have only reinforced how redundant XP often is.
>Milestone does not award adventuring
Adventuring rewards adventuring with discovery and loot
XP is a stiff, poorly balanced number tracking game that adds a meta currency on top of the more natural benefits of adventuring. It's unnecessary and largely emulates what reaching goals set by the party or DM does anyway.
Sitting with your thumb up your ass and screaming about how you totally won doesn't actually change the fact that you've failed to assemble a coherent argument that holds up any amount of scrutiny.

>>96454235
>the idea of an unplanned encounter continually confuses you
All of the milestone games I've played in and ran still had these. They just awarded alternative resources and helped the player's further their goals without the need for XP to tell them they did something good.
You do know that milestones can also be player-driven, right? Milestone does not equate to preplanned. Accomplishing a major goal, oftentimes forecast many sessions in advance by way of the players themselves deciding on a course of action and desired outcome, is the primary way to establish a milestone.

>>96456140
Sounds like you should overthrow him. A DM isn't the ultimate arbitrator of the game like most seem to think they are. They are also a willing participant and player whose contributions, while appreciate, can be just as negative or faulty as any other player. Take his chair and do it yourself if you'd like your games to fire. I did it and it all worked out in the end. I got two and a half years of great gaming out of taking the DM chair from the previous one and I'm enjoying my break after ceding it to another player to give him a shot at it now that he's seen how games can be played.

>>96456156
>The whole fucking POINT of rewarding XP for doing things is to encourage players to do those things
I don't need XP to drive me because I'm invested in the game itself. I don't need to watch the XP number tick up to know I'm making progress by slaying monsters, saving damsels, and overthrowing unjust tyrants. If you need some sort of external motivator, then that's on you. The players are encouraged to do things because they are willingly attending the table to play out a fantasy, develop their character, and amass power. XP is a meta abstraction that is wholly unnecessary if you have any amount of internal motivation.

>>96456156
>anon discovers people have been playing rpgs different than him all these years

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>Spent a year worldbuilding a huge open world for a campaign
>Hundreds of unique named NPCs, three UK sized islands, 13 nations, around sixty cities with economies/histories/politics
>Not a lot of history/deepness to the world, mostly just a big sandbox
>Everyone had an awesome time still
>Total final document categorizing literally everything is about 50 pages including timelines, pre-history, campaign notes, and long details about people/places/things

>Took a year break
>Ready to set up a new campaign
>Want this one to be a little more deep, because the first was wide, but not deep
>Will be set in the same world but in a different land
>Am now 10,000 words and 20 pages into early history/creation myth that is only half done and will be completely irrelevant to players in-game besides minor hints and history lore drops that affect nothing

I should just kill myself because this shit is never going to get done

>>96457021
Yeah that's called over-thinking the plotline you are playing a game maybe try writing a short fantasy novel.

>>96456871
And how about I tell you to fucking shut your ass up you fucking dickhead? You came in here complaining about RAW and I told you that XP is the foundation of the game. You stupid fucking trollop. Nobody cares about your fucking anime pornographic shithole "DnD" group where you spend the entire session gooning and cry because you have to do basic maths. You should be fucking taken care of.

>NOOOO YOU CANT PLAY THE GAME ANY OTHER WAY THAN FIGHTING RANDOM GEN KOBOLDS IN WHITEROOMS AND COUNTING XP

>>96457062
no thanks

>>96457254
that sounds like hella fun to me anon

>>96457021
That sounds pretty cool, as long as it makes you happy.

>>96450298
yeah plutonium was pretty much what i was looking for, moved my character sheet with ddb-importer as well. thanks

>>96457080
Got it, so you never had an argument and are resorting to insults, purely anecdotal evidence, and RAW of a poorly balanced game with vague guidelines both for in and out of combat balance.
You can't call XP the foundation of the game when it falls apart under mundane circumstances and exists purely to abstract linear progression in a wholly unnecessary fashion.

>The object can’t deal damage or give any conditions.
damn Illusionist is really lame, lmao

>>96457021
Just realize that, as you pointed out in acknowledging the players won't ever really have the opportunity to interact with it, you're engaging in this of your own free will for your own satisfaction. Some people just have the itch to create, detail, and hint at something for their own amusement. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but don't get bent out of shape over something that is purely for you. Attempting to initiate the players in it is secondary to your drive to create. Just keep that straight in your head and at the table and you'll be fine.

>>96455586
Learn how to use XP properly, stop railroading
>>96456741
There are guidelines in the book for assigning xp to a complex series of tasks, try reading it and find out!
>>96456787
>it rewards adventuring because the DM might decide you adventures enough
It quite isn’t the same, if you tried reading my and others posts you might understand what we’re saying.
>>96456818
You can award non xp rewards in xp games too, XP is what drives the players to adventure

>>96457573
Nah, illusion magic is incredibly fun as long as you know how to use it. You can win encounters without ever dealing damage or by allowing other players opportunities to deal damage. If you still want to harm things, then mix up your illusions with real summons or attacks to throw off the enemies and breed uncertainty in them.

>>96457594
>XP is what drives the players to adventure
the pcs are playing characters, the characters want to adventure because they have various objectives and goals that have been workshopped with the dm. If you apply to my game and "my character's goal is to get xp" you are kindly told to apply somewhere else

>>96457254
Even the most over the top criticisms of xp based games sound fun, meanwhile the average milestone game is
>go to place
>dm unveils epic new funny voice npc
>monologuing
>do the one combat allotted for this session, next one will be in 2-3 sessions
>follow the obvious hooks to another lore dump / funny NPC
>level up dude!

>>96457619
The players are also human beings in real life anon, a clear incentive system that gives the players and obvious way to interact with the world does wonders. Without it you just follow the hook closest to your nose waiting for the plot to bestow a level up.

>>96457594
>XP is what drives the players to adventure
No, adventure and willingly being at the table for the sake of completing quests is what drives the players to adventure. Adventure and the fruits that come of it are their own reward, and an arbitrary XP number is unneeded toward that end.
>There are guidelines in the book for assigning xp to a complex series of tasks, try reading it and find out!
Quote the page and passage. I can wait, because surely the guidelines you are referring to are as robust as you make them out to be. It's not like I would sit here and say otherwise if I didn't have access to the widely available rules for the game. I think you'll find that these guidelines are woefully vague and largely equivalent to DM fiat when you actually break them down, but you'd know this if you actually read them yourself.

>>96457622
The fact that you are making up strawmen shows how badly you are losing the argument

>>96457634
XP encourages players to adventure even more than milestone, which has no such encouragement what so ever
>read the book for me
Luckily I’m not your DM anon, start with the table of contents

>>96457622
>B BUT I DIDNT GET TO KILL KOBOLDS IN A WHITEROOM THIS SESSION
>WHAT DO YOU MEAN EVERY PLAYER HAD FUN UNCOVERING THE VIZIR'S PLOT I WANT TO KILL KOBOLDS IN A WHITEROOM AND COUNT XP

>>96457644
Compared to the post I was responding to, which was completely in good faith :)

>>96457632
>players are also human beings in real life
Right, and human beings are capable of internal motivation and divorcing their point of view from their own frame of reference for the sake of getting into character and playing out a fantasy in a personally rewarding fashion. The "clear incentive" is the adventure. The "obvious way to interact with the world" is in engaging with the world itself, not some meta currency.
>Without it you just follow the hook closest to your nose waiting for the plot to bestow a level up
Why is leveling up your only motivating factor? Why aren't you capable of having overarching goals without XP to lead you to them? Why is the "the closest hook" even a problem in your mind when "the closest hook" would logically be the thing most pertinent to the characters within the world?

>>96457654
Tell me of this vizier, what is he plotting?

>>96457674
With XP engaging with every aspect of the game becomes rewarding, relying on character motivation leads to constant encounters where only one or two people are engaged at a time, unless the PCs all have the same goal which gets boring quick

>>96457650
How about you start by reading the book to begin with?
>XP encourages players to adventure even more than milestone
No, if anything it creates a barrier between players and their characters by breaking the immersion of personal motivation. Why go on a grand quest with complex actions to reach their goal when they can eventually reach the same point by slaying goblins and kobolds en masse?

>>96457695
>With XP engaging with every aspect of the game becomes rewarding, relying on character motivation leads to constant encounters where only one or two people are engaged at a time, unless the PCs all have the same goal which gets boring quick
citation needed

>>96457695
PCs should have intertwining goals that they developed together. Otherwise, why would they even be a party? It's on the group to create a coherent reason to be together.
>With XP engaging with every aspect of the game becomes rewarding
No, because not everything awards XP and things that don't contribute to the overarching goals of the characters still do.

Ok guys im sure you want your characters driven by something other than getting more powerful and leveling up. Unfortunately unless you all want to rescue the same sister or avenge the same bad guy, that will become boring. As a solution, I propose that you only be motivated by getting xp. Now you can have fun!

>>96457710
You know dnd isn’t a video game right? If the players decide to genocide the goblin tribes that is an excellent springboard to build a campaign of the goblins seeking to stop them. However that doesn’t sound like the novel you had in mind, such a concept is upsetting to milestone DMs.

>>96457737
Thank you dm! Okay guys I see a pen with boars over there. According to my calculaitons if we kill them all we will get 4800 xp! Exciting!

>>96457732
Sticking together to gain power to achieve goals, while gradually forming bonds and care to resolve each others motivations, is PC 101. In milestone teaming up isn’t necessary since the DM can give you a level up after a session of rigorous chatting and coffee drinking
>>96457737
Um guys stop seeking out more adventure it is scaring me (like direct quoting people) please stick to my novel I will say when you level up and achieve your goals, not you

>>96455909
As in optimizing for it?Grappler and Tavern Brawler. Assuming that you can pick any race I'd go with a Goliath to get more defense on reaction because at most you'll get 16 ac. (Currently playing a barb with 16 ac at lvl 7, and I'm eating shit very often and I don't have a shield due to two handed weapon). You'd need a hand free to grapple anyway.
On home brewing it to be better, I'd say that it mostly need more damage from the spikes and/or emphasis on grappling (which might tread a bit too much on grappler and tavern brawler feat). The first things that came to mind would be:
>battlerager armor
give proficiency in Smith tools, and the barbarian can change any light or medium armor, including magical's found during the adventure, into a spiked version of it.
I wouldn't change the damage of the bonus attack, but would boost the grappling damage to at least 5 or Str mod. Maybe add a passive effect to the grappled target, such as lingering damage equals or disadvantage to escape grappling.
>Reckless abandon
Good enough, don't think that needs change.
>Battlerager charge
Absolutely shit feature for a lvl 10, can't just slap charger on it, but keeping movement in mind, maybe gaining movement with each attack, and being able to move at full movement while grappling a target.
>Spiked retribution
3 is also ridiculous for lvl14, so that should be boosted too.dont play enough at these level to know what would be appropriate

>>96457762
>PCs fight one hundred boars
Kino

>>96457751
You realize that gameifying everything by assigning XP to each and every mundane task is more akin to video games than what you're describing, right? There's a great irony to all of this. No one said there being a set plot a milestone game must follow. In fact, quite the opposite has been stated because goals in milestone games are primarily decided by the players.
XP is more likely to create a rift in party motivations because some players might just decide it's easier to level up by fighting from dusk 'til dawn instead of pursuing larger goals that the rest of the party would otherwise be ecstatic to engage in.

>>96457825
> goals in milestone games are primarily decided by the players.
Citation required

>>96457794
>teaming up isn’t necessary since the DM can give you a level up after a session of rigorous chatting and coffee drinking
By your own words, a DM can assign XP to the exact same session. Your division between milestones and XP is malarkey. For some reason you've decided that there must be a clearly indicated number defining progress for you. Again, internal motivation and a drive to play the game itself already takes care of this.

>>96457825
>progression is gamey
lol
>milestones are set by players
No they aren’t, they are explicitly defined by the DM. Players may beg for it but it is 100% the DMs decision what constitutes a proper milestone
>my players might fights lots of monsters
And explore dangerous wilderness, delve dungeons and contend with powerful NPCs! The horror! Write up a scripted shopping session fast!

>>96457843
The DM assigns XP using rules guidelines that players understand from the start, modifications are made clear up front. That’s the point, it’s a system that allows proper interaction between the player and the world. How come not one of you have actually read the rulebook?

>>96457844
>And explore dangerous wilderness, delve dungeons and contend with powerful NPCs
You mean all things you can still do in a milestone-based game?
Not one person is in here saying that milestone games must be scripted, but you've created some kind of arbitrary adversarial definition stating they must be when you've been quite explicitly told the opposite.

>>96457867
Things you can do, but have no incentive beyond “well we’re playing dnd I guess”

>>96457862
The rulebook does not do what you say it does and your refusal to actually cite it despite this text supposedly being right there furthers my point and harms your own. The mere fact that they are guidelines when your previous point was the assign XP based on creature statblocks is self-defeating because having to rely on guidelines instead of clear rules is itself DM fiat.
"Modifications" are the DM having to make decisions one when and how the party will be able to level up to begin with. You've yet to refute the point that a DM can simply pace XP gains however they want to begin with because there is no refutation of this. The DM is still ultimately in control of the game, and XP is the mere illusion of control you cling to.

>>96457898
>assigning xp based off of creature statblocks is dm fiat
Kek
>still can’t conceptualize an unplanned encounter

>>96457880
No, they are things you can do because they're inherently interesting hooks to grab onto. They provide rewards of their own without any need for XP.
Again, why is leveling up and the arbitrary progression toward it your only motivating factor? Why do you NEED XP to know you've made progress toward a goal? Do you really need to know exactly what percentage toward a level you are every time you accomplish something to be truly engaged?
It just sounds like you lack internal motivation or the ability to enjoy literally anything without a number going up.

>>96457910
You were already told that milestone games have no problem with unplanned encounters.
>assigning xp based off of creature statblocks is dm fiat
Not what I said at all. You've once again just been speaking in circles hoping everyone else will give up before you do.