>What attributes do your game use?VitalityConstitutionStrengthAgilityDexterityCharismaAwarenessIntelligenceWisdom...>How do you use them?Myself, I'm brewing something where I want them used by pair, using Charisma+Intelligence for persuasion or using Constitution+Charisma to intimidate, so you aren't totally doomed if you didn't put points in one skill.>How many before it become too many?>How few before it is not enough?I find it tricky to decide which ones cover every action a character will do.>What alternative is there?Feel free to discuss any alternative.
>>96465923>How few before it is not enough?>How many before it become too many?There should be between 3 and 7.2 stats stop being stats, they're just two metres like Health/Mana.8 and more become hard to remember... unless they're arranged in an easy to get grid, f.e.>three categories: physical, cerebral, social>each category has a straight-forward, a subtle, and a defensive statOr>four stats used together with skills>four stats that don't have skills but are used as thresholds or determine secondary valuesCyberpunk gets away with 10 stats, but three of those aren't used for skill checks (BODY, MOVE, LUCK), and one (EMP) serves mostly as mental health metre rather than a roll bonus.
>>96465923Tinkering with a Pokemon system on the side. I'll answer.>What attributes do your game use?Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed. The Stats from the games.>How do you use them?4 skills each. Each Stat has a social skill so no one is a complete social retard. I also wanted a knowledge skill for every stat but it was hard to find them. You get two Major Skills depending on the classes you pick, and about four Minor Skills? Minor Skills are 2d6+Modifier and Major Skills are 3d6+Modifiers. Generally? Attack is for physical power and presence. Defense is for physical toughness and ability to survive. Special Attack is your mental power and general intelligence. Special Defense is for empathy and acuity. Speed is for reflexes and quickness of body.>How many before it become too many?>How few before it is not enough?KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid. 4-6 Stats are generally enough if you have a skill system.
>>96465923GURPS has 4 main stats, and a multitude of secondary stats derived from the main 4.The main 4 are:Strength, which determines your damage with muscle powered weapons, your hit points, and your capacity to lift/carry weight.Dexterity, which determines the speed you react/act in initiative, how fast you move, and your ability to use dexterity skills (any skill requiring the use of your hands or other extermities). Intelligence, which effects your Perception, Willpower, and ability to use Mental skills.Health, which effects your fatigue points, ability to resist being stunned or poisoned, and is used for a few niche skills like Hiking.GURPS separates what would be the "charisma" attribute into multiple constituent advantages/disadvantages, including your Voice, Appearance, Charisma (word choice), your skill at certain influence skills (diplomacy, fast talk, intimidation, sex appeal), your social status, and your reputation.
>>96465923Fighting Fantasy has Skill, Luck, Stamina, with Stamina being hit points and Luck is somewhere between a stat and a meta-currency. Some have none at all but that gets into "barely a game" territory.I'm trying to go with Bile, Melancholy, Blood, and Phlegm, with the idea being that their personality is more important than their physical or mental capacity.
>>96465923As soon as you get to like 9 or more stats, you're probably better off asking yourself if your game should just be focused on a skill list instead. And if you only have 2 stats, then you've basically reduced your game to something like pic related where the stats are just treated as inverses of eachother. Helpful for a one-page RPG that needs to keep things simple. Less so for anything robust.For what you're asking for, 4-5 is probably better to aim for, especially in the context of every roll being a combination of two stats. The thing to keep in mind there is that the more stats you have, the more combinations you need to account for in terms of what they mean.For instance, what would be the distinction between using Strength+Charisma and Constitution+Charisma? If certain pairings end up redundant, that's probably an indication that you need to meld some things together. A more generalized Brawn stat would likely be more useful in that context. And just as a whole for that sort of system, stats that sound more broad make it easier to find a pairing that suits the situation and make judgement calls on the fly.
>>96465923My main Attributes are:>Agility - a combination of flexibility & snap-decision making>Strength - an abstraction of both physical burst strength & magical might>Vitality - combines endurance, fighting stamina, & luck into one abstract factorEach Attribute has a slightly different behavior depending on each Feature, too:• Head>AGI: Every 1.00 applies +1 RFX to Action & Reaction Skills>STR: Applies its value to the base Power of Thrown Skills>VIT: Every 0.25 contributes 1/4 HP to the Head Feature• Body> AGI: Every 1.00 applies +1 Chance to the character's Control Checks & -1 Chance to incoming Zoning Effects> STR: Applies its value to the base Power of Melee Skills> VIT: Every 0.25 contributes 1/4 HP to the Body Feature• Arms> AGI: Every 1.00 increases Throw Range by 1 Space> STR: Applies its value to the Power of Skills used by the Arms> VIT: Every 0.25 contributes 1/4 HP to the Arms Feature• Legs> AGI: Every 1.00 increases Move Range by 1 Space> STR: Applies its value to the Power of Skills used by the Legs > VIT: Every 0.25 contributes 1/4 HP to the Legs FeatureThen, there are the secondary Attributes:>Armor: A Feature's Durability is equal to its ([STR]+[VIT])×[ArmorMod]. Armor Modifier is determined by character generation options.>Health: How much abuse the character can sustain before succumbing. Equal to the total HP of all Features, divided by 5. Health is reduced by some Ailments or when an Injured Feature would take Damage.The character's Current Health applies -1 Chance to incoming Ailments.>waaah too complex waaah vidya gaemsIt's part of my game, that you'll never have to play.I wrote what I wanted, & I enjoy these mechanics. That's what TTRPGs are about; finding/making games that one enjoys, with mechanics and/or challenges one enjoys.Rewrite what you don't like means there's no such thing as a bad TTRPG.
I'm wondering if I have the right stats because I intend to combine all of them, never use them alone.Medieval fantasy with focus on infiltration/escaping/disabling traps & magic + social conspiracyStrength is not needed because magic>Willpowerto combine with Vitality to resist torture to combine with Charisma to resist intimidation>Vitality (boost hitpoint or poisons resist)to combine with Charisma to Intimidate>Agility>Dexteritycan't decide if I need bothAgility is about agile body, meant to combine with Vitality if you need basic movementDexterity is about skills, meant to combine with Agility to avoid traps, or with Intelligence to disarm trap, or with Charisma to manipulateif I don't have both, it bothers me to not differentiate basic and skillful actions,>Charismasocial skills, inevitable>Intelligenceknowledge, inevitableAnd now I'm wondering if I need "Awareness/Perception"because I suddenly realized I had nothing to combine to notice traps or even ambush in a damn infiltration/backstabbing gameThat would make 7 attributes, or 6 if I can remove one.>funny filename I wish I had more joke pic about stats
>>96467227I would argue you don't need both Agility and Dex. To me, Intelligence holds more of an implication of a character doing something in a skilled way. Agility+Int works just fine as a general trap avoidance, lockpicking, etc. Agility+Charisma still works for fast talk. The lack of Strength isn't an issue because there is a decent amount of coverage for physical tasks. Willpower+Vitality works fine for someone lifting something heavy, Agility+Vitality works for general physical tasks, and I could see Willpower+Agility working fine for some weapons. In some ways I could even see fusing Willpower and Charisma into Passion. As far as awareness goes, you could possibly just use Intelligence and Willpower. Remember that the point of a system where rolls are just a combo of two stats is that you don't need to worry about making a skill for every little thing. If you're that worried, you could swap Intelligence for something like Acuity, where then it not only covers a sharp mind, but also sharp eyes and ears. That's what I mentioned earlier in the thread about using more broad names for stats so that they can cover more situation. Since then you avoid needing to add in a new niche stat .
Where's your MOVE stat? Gotta have a MOVE stat.
>>96466479Sounds kinda bad.
>>96465923Whatever you do, for the love of god and all that is holy: differentiate between dexterity and agility. And make perception or something else related to ranged combat.
>>96465923The most important feature of a set of attributes is that they spell a word with their first letters. Like SPECIAL.
>>96465923>What attributes do your game use?12, a sacred number, 4 physical, 4 mental and 4 special.>How do you use them?As base% for skills and a lot of derived stats. Abilities like magic are more affected by attributes: Mag for safe spell 'level cap' (can go beyond it but so do the consequences of failure) and damage, Cha for spell aoe/# targets, Per for spell range increments, Spi for fueling spells and spell defense, Int for spell repertoire and research, etc. Want to dodge? Use Agi. Want to parry? Use Dex. Want to block? Use Str. Ranged weapon skills use Dex+Per, bow# determines Str required to properly use it, Str also determines throw range. Want to move fast? You need Agi and Str. Want to do a lot on your turn? You need Dex and Int. Luk affects your crit rate, the ability to gamble against your odds and special defenses. Cha and App divided, high App will give benefits either if it's good or bad, Cha mostly for being social and that includes worship of gods and bargains with spirits. Int also for bonus skill points and faster learning.
>>96467825What if they all alliterate instead?>Strength>Speed>Stamina>Smarts>Senses>Social
>>96469897This is also good.S 5 S 7 S 3 S 15 S 8 S 3 makes for a very readable stat block.
>>96466017>>96466367brainlet take. wod/exalted uses 9 stats. they are perfectly fine and simple to remember, their name is self explanatory. and these are skill based games. >>96467421this guy gets it.
>>96470995Hardly.
>>96465923FightFuck aroundFind outWhat are you doing>I attack the goblinThat's a fight roll>I craft a potionFuck around>Look for trapsFind out>Smooth talk the guardFuck around>Cast fireballFight>Fuck the goblinFuck around roll. Find out to check for STDs afterward.
>>96469915kek
>>96471427Do AoE magic/abilities count as fuck around or just fight?
>>96465923This thread already exists.>>96469069
>>96471608Shit wrong thread.>>96467611
>>96471446Does it cause damage? Fight.Does it cause effects? Fuck around.Let's break it down.Cause or prevent damage? Fight.Have a direct effect not related to damage (open a lock, put enemies to sleep, create an object, etc)? Fuck around. An attempt to gather information (check for trap, search a room, interrogation)? Find out.Hacking a computer? Fuck around. Search the hacked computer for data? Find out. Prevent ICE from blasting your brain? Fight.
>>96465923I'm writing one right now that has only three attributes, but nine ability scores are derived from those by adding one attribute to half of another attribute.The game uses a d6 dice pool with varying degrees of success, and the size of your pool is determined by the relevant ability score. Two dice at minimum, five dice max.Target numbers are determined by either your own ability scores or your target's ability scores depending on the action being performed. You would roll against your own to perform a healing miracle but roll against your target's to bonk them with a warhammer, for example.You want to roll as many successes (rolls of 4 or more) as possible. Falling short of the target by one still succeeds, but at a cost. Exceeding the target by one or two is a great success, and exceeding the target by three is a crit. Falling short of it by three is a fumble. Sixes explode, and ones defuse (any dice that would explode do not).I initially conceived this to be used with a skill system, but I'm strongly considering abandoning it. I kind of wanted to ape the skill-based progression mechanics from Mouse Guard, but I'm not sure if it's actually going to add much to my game or not.
>>96467825You would love the QUENDO system I made up in an afternoon for my little sister when I was a teenager, then.>Quickness>Understanding>Experience>Nerve>Direction>Oppa Gangnam Style
STAMINASKILLLUCK
>>96468383How does this look?[Physique] :: Equal to sum of SubStats :: Health pool.-Strength- :: Governs violence and exercises of force.-Endurance- :: Governs resistance against physical forces.-Metabolism- :: Governs digestion, recovery, and biological/chemical resistance.[Motorics] :: Equal to sum of SubStats :: AP pool.-Dexterity- :: Governs fine motor finesse, particular in the hands.-Agility- :: Governs acrobatic and athletic feats-Reflex- :: Governs evasion and other feats requiring twitch responses.[Psyche] :: Equal to sum of SubStats :: Morale pool.-Expression- :: Governs social grace and persuasiveness-Intuition- :: Governs primal instincts and spiritual sensitivity.-Attunement- :: Governs raw spiritual potency.[Cognition] :: :: Equal to sum of SubStats :: SP pool.-Intellect- :: Governs matters of logic, reason, and academia.-Perception- :: Governs the acuity of all mundane senses.-Resolve- :: Governs mental and spiritual resistances.
>>96467391Thanks for the constructive argumentation, it's fascinating how anons give such wildly opposite ideas.Just to be clear, yes Dex+Int is best choice for skilled works.But if I only use Agility, Agility+Int would become skilled-work and only 3 stats would lead to easy ninja agile, smart & crafty....unless I then use Agility/Dexterity+Awareness/Perception to cover a ninja who invested in Agility+Awareness but lack the Int to craft or disarm stuff.>Willpower+Vitality works fine for someone lifting something heavyMy magic system really override Strength and Willpower is to be a character defining stat you can chose not to invest in, not a Laziness stat.Sames goes for using Willpower along Intelligence to see things, it would force to put points in Willpower just in case.I must reveal that I intend to use Willpower as a bad thing due to magic or fast-talking a Willpower build lacking Int or charisma.I might look for a whole new attribute name.>>96467421Care to go in more depth why separating Dex & Agility is important for you?Myself I want to differentiate so an Assassin's can leverage Vitality+Dexterity over a plain Vitality+Agility.Archery/ranged battle would indeed be Perception+Dexterity. I kind of prefer Awareness to include listening check or plain survival instinct.Which is why I suddenly realize my need for such stats. As said above, it could be used to replace Dex+Agility, while also giving analysis: Intelligence+AwarenessIf I only keep one, I kinda prefer Dexterity.>>96467825I shall keep these words of wisdom under consideration.
>>96473235>Care to go in more depth why separating Dex & Agility is important for you?Different guy here, but I like the idea of separating the two because they can have wildly different applications.Dexterity is fine motor, and Agility is Gross motor. Folding a paper crane and vaulting over a barrier without losing any speed or momentum are very different skills.
>>96465923Fire: Acts as strength, passion, charismaEarth: Acts as willpower, resistance, and stubbornMetal: Acts as logic and precision, intellectWater: Acts as empathy, perception, adaptationWood: Acts as stealth, agility, and deceptionDone. I've solved attributes using the most based elemental system.
World War D uses 10/11 Attributes , each contributing to three factors of your character. With most units having randomized stat gains this should help each stat feel impactful. Strength: Physical Damage, Stun Reel, Carrying CapacityAgility: Reactive Damage Bonus, Crit Reel, Running Movement SpatialDexterity: Critical Damage Bonus, Dodge Chance, Skirmish MovementEndurance: Focus Damage Bonus, Hit Point Capacity, Defensive Matrix BonusIntelligence: Technical Damage Bonus, Affliction Reel, Skill Point CapacityPerception: Dynamic Damage, Direct Hit Reel , Range Bonus Spatial Magic: Magical Damage, Spirit Points Capacity, MAGA bonusWisdom: Exploitative Damage Bonus, Control Area Spatial, Support Magic Tax (SMT)Charisma: Co-op Damage Bonus, Co-op Reel, Smirk Reel Luck: Bonus Reel, Antiffliction Reel, Force Fate points ( like a reroll but used preemptively for gamespeed) Finally there is Reason which is only for human characters with agency. Your in game faction will populate this stat one of several ways.
>>96473275The anon you answer: that is/was my original take.But both are extremely close and kinda become redundant if the true distinction is carried by the combination with something else.>Folding a paper crane Dexterity+Intelligence>vaulting over a barrier without losing any speed or momentum.Dexterity+Vitality>>96473300Deception/stealth is typically associated with water as it flow evasivelyAnd empathy/adaptation would be something that grow, that's alive: woodSorry, I would rather drink pure aether
>>96465923I'm partial to Shadowrun and GURPSShadowrun has:>four physical attributes: Body, Agility, Reaction, Strength>four mental attributes: Willpower, Logic, Intuition, Charisma>four special attributes: Edge, Essence, Magic, Resonance>physical attributes map directly to mental attributes: Body = Willpower (Resistance), Agility = Logic (Finesse), Reaction = Intuition (Reflexes), Strength = Charisma (Power)>Magic and Resonance are irrelevant to most characters, and can be thought of as an extension of Essence, so really there are only ten attributes totalGURPS has:>Strength (ST) (10 pts/lvl): physical power and bulk; governs Damage with muscle-powered weapons, Basic Lift, and Hit Points>Dexterity (DX) (20 pts/lvl): agility, coordination, and fine motor ability; governs Basic Speed and most physical skills>Health (HT) (10 pts/lvl): energy, stamina, resistance (to poison, disease, radiation, etc.), and basic "grit"; governs Basic Speed and Fatigue Points>Intelligence (IQ) (10 pts/lvl): creativity, intuition, memory, and reason; governs most mental skills>Willpower (Will) (5 pts/lvl): resistance to psychological stress, supernatural attacks, and mental manipulation>Perception (Per) (5 pts/lvl): general alertness, physical senses, and ability to notice thingsI am of the opinion that any system where Dexterity is a single attribute and costs less to raise than Strength and Constitution is shit.Likewise, any system where Willpower and Perception are inseparable attributes is also shit.
>>96470995Read again. WoD/Exalted are literal examples of what >>96466017 said.>unless they're arranged in an easy to get grid>three categories: physical, cerebral, social>each category has a straight-forward, a subtle, and a defensive statThat's point-for-point WoD/Exalted's stat line-up.
>>96473235NTA, but separating Agility/Dexterity is often done to avoid the bit you were talking about, where without splitting them Dex can easily become a very all-encompassing stat because it ends up covering things like dodging, ranged attacks, sneaking, and a lot of other quick/precise tasks, which tends to cover a very, very broad range of tasks. That isn't to say you have to include both, but it does mean that any other stats you include have to be similarly useful. Like for instance, if you made it so Awareness+Int was for ranged attacks and crafting, then the hypothetical Ninja still ends up needing more stats to cover everything. Or crafting could be Vitality+Int instead to represent a smith working at a forge, an alchemist testing chemicals, etc.>My magic system really override Strength and Willpower is to be a character defining stat you can chose not to invest in, not a Laziness stat.See, that just ensures that people are going to be reluctant to invest into Willpower if it's deliberately made worst than other stats. You generally want things to be fairly even so that players don't end up gravitating towards a certain stat spread. I might suggest doing some playtesting for some basic scenarios, and keeping a tally of what combinations of end up being used. If a combo or stat isn't getting used enough, ask yourself if you really need it, or if it could be replaced or folded in.
Fucking this >>96467421. I can't count the number of systems where the one Dexterity/Speed attribute is the uncontested God stat that does almost everything, while there are three or more stats for the same cost that do literally fuck all.
>>96473300>>96474200There is a fair case to be made for using elements or something more abstract as stats. Primarily because it allows you to subdivide things in whatever way you need without having to worry about finding the right word to describe it. Notably your objection to the list primarily seemed to be that Wood/Water should be swapped. So why not do that? Have Wood be empathy and perception because it is patient, and water be stealth/agility/deception because it's nimble and flowing. Or any other mixture really. As long as you can justify the associations, the stats are able to be as broad as necessary to have things mechanically work.
>>96474200>>96475393In Wuxing, Wood is associated with evasiveness, and water is associated with adaptation. Wood penetrates into and through objectives, and water is something that flows around objectives rather than into them. Stealth is fundamentally the practice of being where you do not belong without being noticed: Like a weed in a garden or a beast in the forest. As far as perception and empathy, Water fits because it's about intuition. While wood is also seen as impatient and assertive, the kind of risk taking you'd do to sneak into a fortress. Wood is the type to do not listen to people, while water is the type who would hold back.It also has to do more with elemental interactions in play. Someone lying to you (wood) can be easily debunked with logic (metal), which fits because wood is overcome by metal, but would be good at talking someone around their principles (earth).Someone connecting with you (water) in order to convince you to do something is easier if you're a passionate person (fire) but a lot harder if you're just a stubborn bastard who refuses to listen (earth).The other way around makes less sense. While deception is something of a thematic connection to the stealth aspect, you are right it would fit slightly better with Water... except you also need to consider avoiding making a godstat for any particular playstyle. If you make Water both stealth, deception, and perception, then any kind of scout archetype character can just max out water. As-is, every character would want at least two stats, and very few would want just one. A swordmaster would want both Fire and Metal, a scholar would want Water and Metal, while a bruiser would want Fire and Earth. That puts Water and Wood into a scout archetype.
How do you guys feel about Luck as an attribute? What have been your favorite and least favorite ideas and implementations of it?Right now, I'm theorizing the idea of having a race have Luck as their special racial ability, which functions similarly to probability manipulation that can be used in social situations, combat, and everything in between.
>>96476395>roll a d100>this is your luck stat
>>96476395Unofficial Elder Scrolls does Luck really well.For each 10 above the average, you get a lucky number (rolled during character creation) and a luck point. Points can be spent (or burned) for effects, and those lucky numbers are what you need to roll in order to crit. For each 10 points below average, you instead pick up 'unlucky' numbers which are automatic critfails.
>>96471853This is actually pretty neat. Good job.I have an obsession with the personality typology known as Psychosophy, which has four functions (Physics, Logic, Emotion, and Will). These correlate to Body, Mind, Spirit, and Soul. Or Soma, Logos, Telos, and Pathos. Point is, I think there is something about this schema (as well as your conception) which is archetypal and highly satisfying.
>>96476525I'm glad you see what I was going for there, and I would have to agree. I'm unsurprisingly trying to use this for a pulp fantasy game, but I wanted to lay a groundwork that could be used with other settings. I also wanted character creation to be dead simple. You get five points at level 1 to assign among those three attributes.If I do end up including skills, I don't want to have too many cluttering my character sheets. I'm offering classes and races, but I'm calling them "tags" and allowing each character to choose three tags, one of each kind: a "style" (nimble, terrible, noble, wild, dark, bright, etc.), a species and a job.If I do end up including explicit skills, I'll package one or two skills with each tag, probably two.
>>96466193Attributes are definitely a weak point for gurps
>What attributes do your game use?Pic related is an example>How do you use them?Point buy system, stats go from 1 to 10, but it's a d12 system. Initially you get 9 points to buy Mind Body or Soul (=), then you get double that available for (-) and (+) of every stat. In general terms:> - : Passive i.e. Passive Mind -> Resisting Intimidation, or Passive Body -> Blocking an attack> +: Active i.e. Active Mind -> Trying to learn something, or Active Soul -> Throwing a fireball> =: Neutral or fallback value, for whenever you are not sure if something would be passive of active. It's also used for other calculations in the gameItems and magic have a similar structure, but with type of damage and stuff. Everything was made to be easily created with in seconds, I also have some scripts ready to make it easier.>How many before it become too many?Whenever you are unsure of which stat to use, it's already too many imo.>How few before it is not enough?If the game feels like a Power Point slide when it comes to calculations then it's probably not enough.My system was thought for a play by post system but I've also used it in person just fine.
>>96476950Good idea. I would recommend that skills should involve specific actions pertinent to what the adventurers will be regularly doing rather than comprising a comprehensive list of every conceivable domain of knowledge. Start with a small list of useful skills and add more through play testing.
>>96474200Swift as the wind, silent as the forest, fierce as fire, immovable as a mountain.
