>I want to try to convince the guard that letting us pass is in the best interest of the whole village.>Alright, what do you say to him?Nigga, I don't know, I don't have 18 charisma, my character does. If I roll and pass the check she should be able to come up with some bullshit to tell him, why the fuck do I have to come up with it myself?Immersion ruined. Fuck off with this gay shit.
What does 18 charisma look like?
i sure can't wait to have this argument again. i love this board, it's like a time loop where i get to do all my favorite things over and over again, and it never ends!
>>96533775https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKMMCPeiQoc
>>96533775Some of us haven't had this argument before. Maybe you've just seen everything there is to see on 4chan and should just log off.
>>96533773
>>96533762There's no magic words for everything. Social skills are completely worthless on their own. They're merely supplemental to something actually practical. You need to understand that and work with it, not against it.
>>96533762Charisma is delivery, not argument construction. A high roll just means your character expresses what you wanted well.
>I want to try to kill the guards so we may pass>Ok, what do you do on your first turn of combat?Nigga, I don't know, I don't have martial training, my character does. If I roll and pass the check she should be able to come up with some bullshit to kill him, why the fuck do I have to come up with it myself?Immersion ruined. Fuck off with this gay shit.
>>96533806It's both. Your character can bark in a very "charismatic way" (whatever that means on its own), and you won't persuade anyone. If you're making a diplomacy check, that supposedly includes both your charisma and how good you are at making diplomatic agreements.
>>96533815No, it's not both.
>>96533762>She
>>96533817Ok, but then you're just kicking the can down the road. If that's the case then why would my 7 int character be able to come up with the argument in the first place? It's clearly meant to be a bit of both. Rhetoric requires some degree of argumentation.
>>96533775That's the thing, there is no argument.The player isn't their character, because it's a roleplaying game. It's the same with intelligence and wisdom. It's the same with strength, agility, and constitution. Dice rolls are an abstraction for the sake of quickly conveying a result.People who suggest there's only one kind of roleplaying will never understand this, though. They hate game mechanics, so they'll cry "rollplayer" or "video games".It's pointless to try to convince them, though.
>>96533823I'm trans. Seethe.
>>96533786>4chan>log offhow nu r u
>>96533762As a GM I don't care about the exact words your PC uses, but I always want to hear their approach e.g.>The PC tries to intimidate the guard>They bring up their quest and how it's in the best interest of the village>They offer a few gold, if the guard looks the other way>They try to flirt their way past the guardAdd or subtract as much prose as you like, but at least play your role. The game is more than just collaborative dice rolling.
>>96533833>clearlyBased on what? The point is that you're supposed to engage with the game as a world rather than a series of buttons to push. You make the decisions for the character and the roll determines how well they carried them out.
>>96533762You don't have to roleplay it but I need something to fuckin work with so I'm not playing your character for you manAre you intimidating him (ie "let us pass or this place will be burned (by me fucko)") or lying about some threat in the area that you're there to deal with or (ie "let us pass or this place will be burned (by them fucko)") or some other third thing?
>>96533762You have a mouth and you have a brain. Do you never use them to convince people of shit? If you're hitting on a chick, do you just lift up your armpits and presume your axe bodyspray will make her jump your bones immediately, or do you at least try to go "Hey babey want sum fuck" so she doesn't presume you're asking to be decorated like a christmas tree?
>>96533926>>96533902These are simply different checks. There's already an intimidate skill, a deception skill, etc. I can understand clarifying a bit just so everyone has a rough idea of what's being said>I tell the guard the orcs are coming for them next.But anything beyond that is just annoying.>>96533910Based on what I wrote in that post?>If that's the case then why would my 7 int character be able to come up with the argument in the first place?>You make the decisions for the character and the roll determines how well they carried them out.Having to literally speak as the character is way too granular because it's dependent on the skill. It would be akin to me having to describe in detail just how my swordsman is precisely maneuvering his sword to try and get through the enemy's defenses. Stuff like this can be fun for some people, I understand, but not everyone likes it, and it's retarded to give mechanical weight based on it.This is why I'm always divided on puzzles that the players themselves have to solve. Of course, the whole game can be a puzzle box, so there's obviously a degree to which that always happens, but I think we can all agree that a party of 10 int midwits solving the ancient riddle of the sphinx is a little out there.
>>96533773Kill yourself, puckee.https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1mu1m14/artcomm_braggett_hathewaye_the_songsparrow_bard/?tl=pt-br
>>96533762>playoid throws a bitchfit when prompted to play the gamemany such cases!
>>96533996>Having to literally speak as the character is way too granularNo one here has suggested anything close to that. Again, you decide what you're arguing and the dice decide how well you do that. What about this do you not understand?
>>96533996>These are simply different checks.All the more reason to do it.
>>96533762When a player seems to struggle with this I usually ask them how does it look. They got stuck with the idea they had to be convincing when that's not what's being asked. If they describe how she gets all flirty and grabs his arm and tries to make him fall for her that's good enough. All I wanted was what the character is doing so I can describe how they get stabbed if they fail.
>>96533835If you can't imagine something happening then you don't get to do it, you're in charge of your own character. The vague idea of convincing someone isn't enough imput. If you ask the GM to fill he blanks and describe everything for you they probably could, but nothing will be memorable because you didn't actually do anything. I understand how soccer works, but switching my team to be controlled by the computer in Fifa isn't rewarding gameplay even if they do the things I wanted them to do like scoring.
>>96533996Yeah dipshit, we need to know how your character is expressing themselves so we can play our characters around it. You can just say “I roll to let me into the city” tells us more
>>96533842I refuse, you are valid and accepted.
>I want to try pulling this heavy lever>Alright, do this or I won't let your character succeed
>>96534115No it's not. You're lost, theater kid.
>>96534523Anyone who argues that the GM should basically roleplay for them is only successfully convincing people they're a lazy chode whose presence is not needed if they're going to be an npc
>>96534547>Anyone who argues that the GM should basically roleplay for themNobody is saying this. You shouldn't roleplay either. Nobody fucking cares, retard. It's about telling roughly what happens and moving on. The whole thing is pretext for fighting monsters.
>>96533762>i argue about some imminent danger>i argue that we are on a important mission for [important person/ faction]>i sweet talk him about shared military hardships and camradrie>i tell him we need to inform village leadership of something very important, only meant for their earYou dont need to spell it out, just give the broadest of strokes
>>96534169It must get difficult finding different ways to describe sword swings every single time you want to attack.
>>96534523>>96534558Mumble SOMETHING out, you autistic retard. it's boring. If you cant say "please let us pass, monsters are coming and I need to inform the baron/lord/commander/whateverthefuck" like >>96534561then you should just go play a video game. Roleplay, you nigger. If you managed to talk your way into playing a social TTRPG then you are capable.
>>96534572>you roll each individual attack?>just tell the GM you do combatAn argument is an avenue of interaction so it's like picking a lance or a sword or a whip. If you try to seduce him and fail you look like a prostitute, if you try to intimidate and fail you make them angry, and so on. If there are different results for each then it's not just another attack in a series of identical attacks.
>>96534558If your attitude is>Nobody fucking cares, retardThen yeah, you should play video games instead, because you're basically saying you've less worth than an npc if you can't even spell out the intent, much less say the actual words of what your toon is trying to convey
>>96533762So what's the situation in the village?Is there a doppelganger in the mayor's office?Are some of the people actually zombies?Have you traced the tunnels of a kobold bandit clan to the village?Is there a criminal operation going on?TELL ME FAGGOT
>>96534437Two can play at that game, boy.>Your ogre kicks the door down? There's the door, kick it down yourself.
>>96534719>Two can play at that game, boy.you just did the same comment
>>96533762This is just laziness. If you can’t come up with any even remotely logical reason why the guard should let you pass, maybe try to make some mysterious reason? Maybe the guard gets intrigued and lets you pass to see what happens. Even you can’t come up with even something like that, maybe just ask the DM if your character would remember something about this specific village and villagers, and work from there.
>>96534731Yeah, but I'm saying it to the DM.
>>96534719>>96534828>a god has cursed your character to suck cock>here's a cock, now suck it
>>96534628>If someone doesn't wanna play theater with me when playing a tabletop game they should just go play video games instead.Maybe you should go write a book instead, J.K. Rowling.
>>96534802>>96534707The context is obviously there from the conversation they already had from the guard and from everything else. You know as well as anyone we aren't talking about just "giving the gist".
>>96533762Don't play roleplaying games if you're not willing to roleplay.
>>96534924If "What do you say to convince someone to let you in" is too distressful and straining for your autistic brain, you should probably just jerk off to Chat GPT telling you how you're a brilliant child instead of playing a roleplaying game with other human beings
>>96534942I'm not. I'm playing D&D, not Vampire the masquerade.Don't play a tactical miniature combat game if all you want to do is jerk off and tell stories.
>>96533762Can't you just be a normal person, open up your mouth, and talk?
>If you don't wanna waste time trying to figure out what to say to some wanker nobody NPC who is literally only there so you can roll a check to either go directly through him or have to find another way, you're in the wrong
>>96534959>I'm playing DNDThere's your issue. You're clearly not, you're an armchair psychologist being mad at games he doesn't even play.
>armchair psychologistI think the theater kid broke
>>96534924>you want me to explain my intentions?>you might as well write a novel!what?
>>96533775https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oR79ja1u-o
>>96534959Then why are you complaining about immersion, faggot?
>>96535047Cause he clearly just shitposts on /tg/ whining about games he never plays instead of actually practicing what he preaches
I think the d20 pass/fail resolution system is just kind of shit for a lot of things, which is why people try and supplement it with roleplay when it comes to seduction/persuasion/bartering or other social tasks.because, like "roll a die, if the number is higher then X you win" ends up being a pretty weird and antisocial way of looking at social tasks, right? you either Successfully Seduce or you don't. this is the same mechanic as, say, jumping over a river. it feels flat and uninteresting for a task that should be complex. you don't have to in any way meaningfully engage with their viewpoints or what they want -- the mechanics provide you no space to make concessions or come to see their point of view. their disagreement with you is an obstacle to be overcome and it's overcome by simply battering it aside. it's a one-sided process done to static immovable non-agents and that doesn't really feel like it conveys the idea of a social mechanic, right?
>>96535076That's a pretty valid criticism. Social systems in games tend to work better on a scale imo than a straight yes-or-no. It's why I at least ask what the player wants their character to say, even just the general direction if they don't have the precise words they want. They might come up with a very cogent or important argument that the dice otherwise state is a failure, for example. Those instances I would allow for the chance for another player to come in and try their chance on a subsequently less challenging roll, make the efforts of the player that went before them not go to waste.
>>96534523Warhammer thread is over there >>96343477
>>96535076What social systems are there other then this? Not baiting, genuinely want to know some examples. I don't know any system that devotes as extensive of a focus to social as most systems do to combat.
Social systems should deal with long term benefits instead of in-the-moment persuasion.
>>96533762>I made a character I'm too stupid to playOk? You fail and get to suffer for being a dumbass then.>B-but the barbarian player can't grapple dragons Irl so I should be able to just-Tabletop games are a cognitive experience. You need to be smart enough to roleplay as your character. Go join a group that rollplays instead (You'll still get filtered out because if you're too stupid to talk, you're too stupid to remember mechanics).
>>96535160I like Monsterhearts and the use of "strings". They're an abstract mechanic representing your influence over someone -- favours they owe you, times you've impressed them, whether or not they like you. You can spend these strings to influence people and get them on your side--and you ca spend these strings to make your actions against people more effective, or to push them into doing what you want. I found it's a pretty effective system because it's clearly outlined the reach of strings and how many you'll need to do certain things (plus additional incentives you'll need to make the action work at times).
>>96535160nta, but Mutant Year Zero outright gives mental attributes like Wit (intelligence) and Empathy (feelings) their own equivalent of hitpoints, confusion and doubt, so that certain careers like Enforcer can use abilities like Intimdate to essentially "attack" their Empathy aka threaten someone so hard you temporarily crack their willpower and do what you say out of fear. Not the most elegant system, but it at least is consistent with the other mechanics.
>>96534558Let me give you a hint, OP. GMs play favorites based on who jives with their style best. Your GM? He likes a little roleplaying. He's asking you to give him more to work with here and engage with the scene directly.You ain't a fan of that, so either accept that you are gonna be a useless wallflower NPC, or find a different group before they get tired of you acting surly when you're forced to do something other than roll dice, and eat the food and drink the beer that someone else bought..
>>96533762but how is your quest in the best interest of the whole village?
>>96535417Well it makes sense to kill the demon that keeps demanding virgin sacrifices to keep crops plentiful, duh. Failing crops are probably that demon's fault to begin with, so if we kill that hellspawn we don't need to keep sacrificing virgins anymore.[this is just some shit I made up on the spot to provide an example of such an interaction as suggested in the OP]
>>96535014Only if you like pouty twinks.
>>96533762Its player knowledge vs character knowledge. This is part of what sells the old school style of play. You retards never seem to understand that most people fall somewhere in between wanting a game based on player knowledge or character knowledge and one isn't better than the other.
>>96535180>>I made a character I'm too stupid to play>Ok? You fail and get to suffer for being a dumbass then.this is the real reason I always play as a dwarf barbarianI'm gonna make racist remarks about elves and be a complete retard anyway so why not play the role I was born to play?
>>96535707Based? Playing what you love and what fits you as a person is always better than trying to play a character you're too autistic to even attempt larping as like OP.
>>96535707you could play a parody of a smart characteryou can mumble nonsense in a pedantic tone pretending to have a pipe and roll for the right answer being in the word salad. You don't need to know the answer, you need to let us understand what you're doing. Ideally in a fun way. The exact words are not needed.
>>96535736that was just hyperbole, I don't literally ALWAYS play as a dwarf barbarianthat's just the role I'm best suited for so it's my first choice every time
>>96535746I didn't mean you in particular, royal you, someone that never plays smart characters probably could do a pretty fun parody of one. Pocking fun of the wizard player or something like that.
>>96534942>improv theater is only one way to roleplay
>>96535756Easiest way I've found to play someone that's smarter than me is either just make them less reckless and more patient than how I normally do it to basically trick people into thinking it, or make them the equivalent of an autistic savant; Brilliant on paper, fucking weirdo in every other way that matters
>>96535756mate I'm literally telling you I play dumb characters because I'm dumb myself?You expect me to follow a train of thought? What did I say that was wrong?
>>96534591The attacks aren't identical, though, because in a combat situation, there's going to be feints, footwork, parries, and other maneuvers, but these things are abstracted into the to hit roll vs AC.You aren't expected to describe how you parry to get your AC. You aren't expected to describe how you feint and thrust when you make an attack. You aren't expected to describe the angle of your character's wrist after the DM described the placement of the opponent's shield and whether or not they're on their back foot.And that isn't even accounting for environmental concerns, emotional states, sensory states, other combatants, etc.You say you attack, make your roll, and see if it beats the opponent's AC, in spite of all of these ever-changing factors of an evolving combat situation in the context of a campaign with a larger goal.Therefore, it stands to reason, for the sake of abstraction and playing a character who can do things you can't, to say you parley with the guard, make your roll, and see if it beats the DC.If you support one thing and not the other, it demonstrates either a genuine lack of self-awareness/ignorance, or willful malice against a form of gameplay you're personally opposed to.You have no ground to stand on, so your only choices are to admit defeat, remain silent, or continue floundering from a position you literally can't defend. In any case, I'm done wasting time on you.
>>96535864Lol mad
when I run a game I really don't give a fuck what you come up with for social checks. Just fucking anything. The quality of the statement or threat or bribe or seduction may give you a statistical edge or disadvantage if it's quality/egregious enough relative to the NPC and their potential interpretations. It's my job as the DM to take that information, a roll, and interpret a result. If someone can't come up with anything I default to their character basically saying "because I said so." You can accommodate a wide range of players in one game, this shit isn't rocket science.
>>96535864in my games if someone wants to get specific about the nature of an attack and it's sufficiently rational/fucking cool enough I will give them statistical edge on the following rolls for being fun. you sound very un-fun.
you're a bad dm kek
>>96535864>You aren't expected to describe how you parry to get your AC. You aren't expected to describe how you feint and thrust when you make an attack. You aren't expected to describe the angle of your character's wrist after the DM described the placement of the opponent's shield and whether or not they're on their back foot.>And that isn't even accounting for environmental concerns, emotional states, sensory states, other combatants, etc....You mean you don't take into account any of that? What kind of shitty GM are you?
>>96535947>...You mean you don't take into account any of that? What kind of shitty GM are you?Next that fag will tell us that he doesn't even take into account combat stances and rapport phrases by the defender. That guy can't even DM a choose-your-own-adventure newspaper article.
>>96535864>The attacks aren't identical, though, because in a combat situation, there's going to be feints, footwork, parries, and other maneuversAre there? The mechanics don't say so and there are specific rules and feats and such for much of these.>You aren't expected to describe how you feint and thrust when you make an attack. You aren't expected to describe the angle of your character's wrist after the DM described the placement of the opponent's shield and whether or not they're on their back foot.You could still describe it that way, though.And you are expected to describe whom you're going to attack and how. You do not get to say "I roll combat." You have to unsheathe your sword, move up next to them, and then declare an attack action.Similarly you need to explain what you're going to try and do to convince the guard. You don't have to play out the entire conversation either, though you still could.
>>96535947>>96535917NTA, but DMs who give people advantages for "le creativity" are usually the worst kind of retards. I've had a game where I stopped saying anything because the DM was constantly giving +1 to rolls because of shit we would say. The game as rules, we are playing a game, stop it.
>>96535864the salient irony of this wall of text is that you wrote all of this to justify your refusal to actually convey your character's intent through at least some semblance of narrative-gameplay integration.
>>96536046That is a pretty obvious DM trap. Just be judicious, you don't need to throw them around.
>>96536046Hey, that's your choice anon. I do it to incentivize people from just giving the bare minimum "grunt and shrug then continue to stare at me like a philosophical zombie" when I ask them anything, but if you don't like free bonuses, then nobody can infringe on that.
>>96533762By this logic, you can just walk up to the King and decide your 18 charisma character deserves to be gifted 10,000 gold pieces for existing since your character can figure out a good enough reason. TTRPGs aren't just binary input-output machines, retarded faggot.
Turns out what could have been a normal noob problem with potential for discussion is just OP delivering retard bait. I'm amazed at how frequent you shitpost on here. I literally just had a game, while you were spouting memes itt, wasting time on keeping an online argument alive
>>96536171"I roll to convince the king to side with me" is a tale as old as time newfag.
>>96536171Diegetically, yes.
>>96536185meant for >>96536180But yeah, enjoy your deterministic "stats = god" slop style of game.
>>96536180> "The DC is 50"when they ask why put on your sunglasses, turn on The Who and say "narrative" before triggering the table to explode.
>>96536193>deterministic>you roll diceLul>>96536196>when they ask whyPlayers wouldn't ask that, DC 50 is a reasonable DC for such a task. The important thing is it's still possible.
>>96536211>statistical probabilities aren't deterministicNot only an autistic retard, but also failed basic algebra and calculus too.
I don't want to have to build a system to account for all those minuscule details and decide what to give to anyone according to the quality of their roleplay, that's too much fucking work. And I don't want to just arbitrarily decide bonuses everywhere too. The game should have the game design handled for me, that's the bare minimum.
>>96536229Yes, but as fun as HeroQuest is, most people prefer using their brains for more than the bare minimum.
random chance is indeed not deterministic, try again drop out
>>96536264If a system is not truly random, insofar 2 is deterministically greater than 1, then it is not truly stochastic. Even in your OP example, you immediately presume an 18 CHA ubermensch would simply be able to reasonably convince a town guard they should listen to them. That's by definition deterministic, you illiterate cretin.Also, you still haven't refuted the main argument.
>>96536329Nope, if it's random its not deterministic.>Also, you still haven't refuted the main argument.How so because I'm pretty sure I won it and you're just mad kek
>>96536336>if it's randomIt's not true randomness for reasons I've explicitly stated, and by acknowledging that a char with 18 CHA SHOULD be able to persuade a town guard, you prove mr ight.>How so because I'm pretty sure I won it and you're just mad kekYou haven't explained why you shouldn't be allowed to become King and fuck his daughter while he watches after rolling good only one time. Roll playing is frowned upon for this reason, since it just makes chars into soulless blobs of stats that can shape the universe to their whims at any given moment.
>>96536391If its random, it's not deterministic. This is difficult for you to understand clearly kek>You haven't explained why you shouldn't be allowed to become King and fuck his daughter while he watches after rolling good only one timeI don't disagree with letting that happen if the dice let it be so, and there are many stories of exactly that and other very unlikely events happening because of lucky rolls. The GM should set a high DC as appropriate of course, with consequences for failure.
>>96536229as stated before, the point of explaining what you tell the guard is to know the results. In particular fails. He might assume you're a drunk and tell you to leave or he might be offended and angry, or different stuff. If you don't explain your intention the GM has to make up your argument and give you a response that might seem unrelated to what you had in mind.
>>96536410>If its random, it's not deterministic. If you believe this truly, and I mean in the sense you're fully aware of the implications of what you're writing, then you should have just written "My 8 CHA grug half-orc barbarian that smells like shit should be allowed to roll to persuade the town guard to let him in" instead.But no, we know the real reason you made this thread is because you want TTRPGs to be like your vidya games with binary success/fail states that are not allowed to be indeterminately adjusted by player input.>This is difficult for you to understand clearly kekYour arteries are clogged and you smell like corn syrup.
>>96536479>you cannot roll unless you are really good at something>also I am fat and will project this personal failing upon youWew thank G*d you don't run games
>>96536493>>you cannot roll unless you are really good at somethingYes, this is implicit in the premise of the OP: Your character has high charisma, therefore he should be allowed to skip interaction and roll-play. >>also I am fat and will project this personal failing upon youYour health is already failing because of the HRT, you fucking idiot. Your school systems failed you and it's safe to assume your parents never loved you too. In complete sincerity, kys.
>>96536525>Yes you can't roll unless you're already good at thingsLmao you're retarded.>Your health is already failing because of the HRT rah rah I'm mad!Lol I can tell these are all proejctions borne of insecurity. I'm a straight white male (biological) btw :)
>>96536546Cope. >>96533842Don't pretend you're not OP you looney troony, you need to stop spamming /tg/ with your anti-intellectual shit threads.
>>96535692>You retards never seem to understand that most people fall somewhere in between wanting a game based on player knowledge or character knowledge and one isn't better than the other.This. >My character brags about the party's accomplishments>My character reveals their knowledge of the situation (perhaps deliberately omitting certain details so as to not amass suspicion)>My character tells a bold-faced lie about the leader of the village needing to meet them face to faceHow fucking lazy and uncreative are you people that you can't even one semblance of personality in your character without devolving into some babble about muh theatre kids muh I can't do silly voices tc.
>>96536572*even implement one
>>96536554>Cope>Links another postAny other copes you wanna dish out retard?
>>96536589You could talk more in depth about how statistics are non-deterministic systems, that was pretty funny.
>>96536572They're on 4chan shitposting about roleplay aspects of a tabletop role playing game instead instead of working on their campaigns or having fun doing whatever else, the answer is "pretty lazy" and "not very creative at all."
>>96536604So no, ran out of copes after the ad hominem failed? About what I expected of you lol
>>96533762Yes I ask you explicitly what you say. If it's something good you might even pass without a roll. If it's something stupid I penalize your numbers at best or auto-fail you.If that's too much for you, then TRPGs are too. I recommend trying video games where you don't have absolute freedom and everything's already planned and written for you. Maybe even movies or a book! Those are stories that already exist and you don't have to think at all!>durrr I can't swing a greataxe or cast spells why should I have to talk for my tieflingYou're not playing your character's arms. A Goblin isn't in this room right now with us that you have to stand up and slay.You're playing their mind. Why have you made all their decisions up until the point where they need to talk to the King and suddenly now you don't want to?What they think to do or say is all your choice.Roleplay bitch. If you can't, the door's right there. I'm sure there's some Shitical Role wannabe 5e games on Discord you can fit into elsewhere.
>>96533762>Erm, DM I have a +4 in intellect. Just TELL me the answer to the riddle.
>>96536443Yes, but I am the GM. I don't want to have to essentially have to fucking grade other people's roleplaying
