>ruins RPG's
>>96544619It's okay, he fixed it with AD&D.
>>96544619He created them AND he ruined them?Damn, dude was on another level.
>>96544663That's not Dave Jeffery.
>>96544663People believing Gygax invented anything is one of the way RPGs are ruined by him.
That's not a picture of a bunch of theater kids...
>>96544663>He created themIt appears the OP's image is of Gygax, not Dave Arneson. You seem to be confused, anon. Don't worry, I was here to correct you! All is well!
>>96544619How hard are you crying right now, son?
>>96544861You seem to have confused being an illiterate autist with being an RPG designer.
>>96545019>>96544619I bet he was a nogames
>>96544619>being angry with dead people NGMI
>>96544619>>ruins RPG'sHe is schiophrenic see: >>96535933
>>96544619>>96544663>He created them AND he ruined them?War gaming was better!
>>96544861>>96544777>People believing Gygax invented anything is one of the way RPGs are ruined by him.Red pill me on this!
>>96545811Wargaming and role-playing diverged into completely different types of games pretty early on. Wargames don't really do anything for me, just not interested in that type of game.
>>96544619That's not Matt Mercer or Wotc
>>96544777>>96545816NTA but Gygax worked closely Dave Arneson, on the original release of D&D but Dave was the one who came up with the idea and pitched the prototype to Gygax.However once things started picking up Dave wasn't able to hold up his part of the workload and so Gygax, bastard he was, cut him out completely and took full credit for the sake of PR.The issue is that Gygax in that founder role had basically made two versions of D&D.His personal anything goes, improv heavy sessions.And the AD&D rules that were meant to be a complete unchanging (outside of official supplemental releases) product covering every way the game was meant to be played so that no 3rd party devs could risk the copyright.This has led to a long argument within the community about "what would Gygax do" that is ongoing to this day where each side cites various contradictory thoughts and statements made by him over decades with diffrent goals in mind to justify their own ideals about the game.If Arneson was given credit than the argument of "what the founders wanted" would lean so much on the RP heavy improv side of things that the community would of reached a general consensus.Combine this with a culture manufactured by the people who played with him of their own importance just by being close to Gygax and you get an absolute clusterfuck that all the older grogs who engaged with the larger community have had to deal with in some form. The kind of thing which would of been mitigated if Gygax wasn't treated as the one founder.Basically its all the issues with monotheistic religious structure but done with a cult of personality.
>>96544619I ain't gonna weigh in one way or the other, but I AM gonna say that my experience playing RPGs became vastly more enjoyable the moment I tried a single skill-based system instead of something with levels and meat points. So I guess I have a generic dislike for all descendants of the D&D lineage.
>>96545899>cult of personality.The funniest part is that Gygax didn't have much charisma, he just had charisma compared to the incredibly low standards of Wisconsin.When he moved to California to try and start up the D&D entertainment division, even with millions of dollars to throw around he wasn't able to accomplish anything and had to slink back home.It's like hearing there's a giant warrior revered by his tribe, except that it's a pygmy tribe and he's 4'2".
>>96545832>Wargaming and role-playing diverged into completely different types of games pretty early on.Yep. RPGs are basically what a schizo like Gygax would make up full of insane and schizo ideas like>HP (what is that even?)>Armor class (?????)>Aliment (self contradictory garbage)>Class (?)>Vancian magic system (!!!)Anyone who did not give up upon facing this retardation is a schizo or to degenerate to be reasoned with.War gamingIn contrast>Logical simulation of real combat>Everything makes sense>Nothing is illogicalContrastD&D>Why don't we simply have a party of all mages?>>>REEEE MUH GAME BALANCE!>What is even the logic of 4 adventurers killing a dragon and not the king using his army?>>>>REEE I MUST PLAY A PAN SEXUAL DEMI QUEER ELF WITH A SCAT FETISH!>>>>>REEE LET ME ROLE PLAY!In contrast>Why don't we get an army of 100% tanks?>>>Tanks are expensive and the game simulates what your budget can afford for a army of this size. Also tanks can have problems maneuvering in forests etc.>Wargames don't really do anything for meThe opposite. I rather stab myself then spend 5 years of my like playing the same scenario of some fagot whose conclusion is ultra retarded and childish.In Wargaming everything makes sense everyone basically has 1HP and uses evasion/terrain with armor to not get hit. This is 100% realistic since getting an arrow into your leg will disable you from fighting in any efficient way.The only things that have more then 1HP are inhuman monsters who can lose an arm and keep on going like it is nothing and genetically engineered super soldiers or demon incarnated into the material world.WTF does it even mean in D&D to lose 3HP?
>>96545899>no 3rd party devs could risk the copyright.How the fuck does this even work?Did WOC copyright using dice in one way or some shit?Not that anyone would dream in a billion years to copy the absolute trash that is the D20 system!
>>96545899>And the AD&D rules that were meant to be a complete unchangingYeah, nah.DMG says: Do things your way.>As a participant in the game, I would not care to have anyone telling me exactly what must go into a campaign and how it must be handledDMG says: Rules in a different campaign and/or run by a different DM will be very similar but not necessarily identical.>Character races and classes will be nearly the same. Character ability scores will have the identical meaning — or nearly so.DMG says: Change but don't change too much.>Similarly, you must avoid the tendency to drift into areas foreign to the game as a whole. Such campaigns become so strange as to be no longer “AD&D”.DMG says: I didn't figure everything out and I did that on purpose so you could feel special about doing things your way (not because it was too much work and it would cost too much money).>Imaginative and creative addition can most certainly be included; that is why nebulous areas have been built into the game.
>>96546279>>Logical simulation of real combatSays the person posting a picture of gun-wielding sapient ambulatory fungi.
>>96546311>Says the person posting a picture of gun-wielding sapient ambulatory fungi.YES.If you want 100% historical human V human combat you can have that.However! If you want to venture into speculative fiction with monsters zombies and abominations some extrapolation is needed.>wielding sapient ambulatory fungi.The difference is that 1 wound is something everyone understands what it means it a good part of flesh was removed from the model.If you did that to a normie human he be bleeding out in minutes on in pain on the ground. Not so much for the fungi man.WTF does losing 3 HP even mean in D&D? I have seen it interpreted as physical injury and also no injury at all. It is like entering a world of schizophrenia.
>>96545899You're conveniently missing the part where Dave Arneson could couldn't even put together Blackmoor on his own and had to have Tim Kask virtually re-write and edit it so much that it was significantly delayed.I do not wish to speak ill of the dead, but Arneson was possibly retarded.Pic relatedToo many people watch Secrets of Blackmoor and get on the Gary hate train.
>>96546335Are you the "D20 system is stupid because people get tired in zombie apocalypses" schizo?Anyway, losing 3HP in D&D is an abstraction of your remaining capacity to fight, namely, your stamina. It's why you don't bleed out even when you're on 1HP.You're just assumed to be in combat and glancing blows against your enemy constantly, it's like how "missing" in your roll doesn't mean you literally missed a strike.
>>96546397>namely, your staminaThis is why people hate D&D!>HP is le stamina!Why is it named HEALTH POINT or HIT POINT not stamina?>*Angry D&D fag face*And what kind of stamina gets only used up only when you get hit????!!!>REEEEEESee where the problem is? The more you try to explain the worse it gets! It is pure schizophrenia that reeds like something written by robots who exist in a simulation and do not know how this having a body concept really works!>"missing" in your roll doesn't mean you literally missed a strike.Did your schizophrenia get activated now?
>>96545816So, we're going to talk about a guy you've never heard of.David Wesely. This is the grandfather of roleplaying games. The short version is that Wesely created a game called Braunstein, which was a game about a fictional german town during the Napoleanic era where in everyone was in charge of one character and trying to accomplish that character's objective. In the course of running the game, people started getting into characters and roleplaying - kinda unprompted. Emergent gameplay. It's cool stuff.Then comes Dave Arneson. Dave one day decides to hold a medieval fantasy version of Braunstein, called Blackmoore. There's more to it, but we're going to fastfoward a bit - Gygax and Arneson were in the same circles, and the two decided to make a game that mixed Arneson's Blackmoore and Gygax's wargame Chainmail.Out of this mess comes a game, Dungeons and Dragons, and a company to publish it - TSR.Through various interpersonal issues and seemingly a general want to not be in charge of a company, Arneson winds up leaving TSR. And while there's more to pick out there, Gygax being the man left in charge of TSR made it very easy for him to basically craft the narrative that D&D was a thing that he made, that he was this great man who had no REAL partners in making this game happen. Sure, there were some collaborators but he was THE GUY.
>>96546424>Why is it named HEALTH POINT or HIT POINT not stamina?Because it inherited the term from a historic war game about naval combat.
>>96546297NTA, but having met Gary and asked him myself, he saw AD&D as a baseline everyone should be working from. The unchanging flat and true foundation you built your house (campaign) on top of. Hell, your quotes reinforce that truth.
>>96546502>Umm in D&D stamina is named HEALTH POINT or HIT POINT because umm because umm because from a historic war game about naval combat! Who D&D is not!>Also you only deplete your stamina not by doing actions.... it is depleted is another character hits you with an attack!Anyone who did not give up when encountering this wall of schizophrenia and continued playing D&D is not right in the head!
>>96546424So you are the zombie apocalypse schizo. Good to know.
>>96546548IS the zombie apocalypse schizo in the room with us right now?
>>96546509>baselineThat's the imaginary line that's used for comparison of different things. That just reinforces the quotes that AD&D is neither complete nor unchanging.>foundationThe six, or later seven even that didn't stay the same for long, ability scores are foundational to the game. If Gary in the DMG says>Character ability scores will have the identical meaning — or nearly so.that tells you that while all campaigns are built on the AD&D foundation that the fundamental concepts that make up that foundation are not anywhere near as unchanging as you're making them out to be.
Gygax's stain is embedding a passive-agressive style to all GM and Player interactions and teaching every game designer who followed that RPGs should be poorly organised books.
>>96546424>HP doesn't make sense!!!!!!!If only there was some kind of adjacent medium with a similar concept to draw inspiration from...
>>96545899>And the AD&D rules that were meant to be a complete unchangingObjectively incorrect.
>>96546279>>Why don't we simply have a party of all mages?There isn't any reason, many do.>>What is even the logic of 4 adventurers killing a dragon and not the king using his army?The Kings level 1 peasant army wouldn't win.>In wargames why don't we get an army of 100% tanks?MUH GAME BALANCE, MUH COMP TOURNEY PLAY
>>96545899>mfw dnd basically has fucking hadiths
>>96546279>posts a pic of 40k which has>HP aka Wounds>Armor class aka armour saves>"Aliment" vis Imperium vs Chaos vs Xenos>Class as shown by Marines spending 200 years sneaking then forgetting how to do that when they graduateVancian magic is the only point you've got to stand on, but only retards and faggots hate Vancian magic
>>96547938>The Kings level 1 peasant army wouldn't win.>The Kings level 1 peasant army> level 1 peasant army>peasant army>peasant armyImagine being D&D.Imagine thinking kings used peasants to fight wars and not TRAINED KNIGHTS!Imagine being so nonsensical that you think that the kings army fighting non stop various humans and monsters would not level up...D&D EVERYONE!
>>96545899"No."Arneson never wrote any shit down. His notes for Supplement II were less than half of what was needed for the booklet, that's why filler (all the sea monsters) had to be made.Yes, Gygax tried to cut Arneson out of AD&D (but not D&D) royalties, because he did nothing at TSR. Dave won the lawsuit anyway.AD&D was made to answer all the questions and misinterpretation of OD&D and combat the rampant proliferation of unironic D&D bootlegs (inb4 "you couldn't make an RPG without copying D&D back then"; Traveller, TFT, and TnT all disprove that).The universe where Arneson is given credit for inventing RPGs is the universe where RPGs don't exist, because he didn't have the drive to write, publish, and spread his ideas.
>>96548025>knightsHe can get maybe 100 of them, not an army lol
>>96548046>>Knights>He can get maybe 100 of them>I know nothing about history!
>most entry-level contrarian take possibleBold today, are we?
>>96546283>>96546297>>96547689By unchanging I meant that the original releases of D&D were so incomplete from a mechanical standpoint that 3rd party products were able to successfully sell themselves off filling the holes.Gary got scared that these products would weaken any attempts to hold on to copyright in court battles and so made AD&D as a "this is everything you need to build off of" product to divorce the game from the 3rd party rules market legally.As said you could build from it on your own, but AD&D's original purpose was that it was built to be Ur-Books from which all else that was to be D&D for copyright purposes.Espically with how litigious TSR could get at times.
>>96548053t. HistoryletMedieval Kings were not absolute monarchs who could make every single person in the kingdom obey their whims. They were often just the leaders of a confederate of vassals whom often held more power than they did. They are not going to go gather all their retinues and fight a random dragon because "duh kang said to".The King himself would have only a small household to call upon. Everyone else is getting levied. And he can't even levy too many people because there are laws even Kings must obey. A Dragon would easily body him and his army of level 1-3 followers.In comparison it's much cheaper to just ask some adventurers to go deal with the beast instead.
>>96546386>>96548038I said Arneson, couldn't keep up his part of the deal in reference to that, I just didn't want to bloat out the poet even more.But yeah the dude was functionally incompetent outside of his one big idea, but the amount of supports he had nowadays is mainly because for decades he was basically scrubbed from any official marketing when it comes to the "founding of D&D" which was the main point, that letting Gary be presented as the God-King of D&D was an issue.
>>96546279>I AM SILLY!!!Why even write up and effortpost if you're going to discredit yourself with strawmanning?
>>96548123>I said Arneson, couldn't keep up his part of the dealIt's a gross oversimplification of Arneson being a mongoloid, anon. And pointing out that Arneson was a retard drives home the fact that there would have been debates over how RPGs should be played anyways.
>>96548104>t. HistoryletYes you are.>They were often just the leaders of a confederate of vassalsYIKES! Imagine writing this!YIKES!Kings where absolute dictators executing people on a whim. Hardly better then bandit leaders.
>>96548178>Yes you are.nope you are>YIKES!kek onions>Kings wherespelling error you lose
>>96548163That's fair but I think you underestimate how much follower mentality goes on, even in the Tabletop sapce.
>>96548190>sapcekek
>>96548185>spelling error you loseCan you discredit yourself more?
>>96545811Those fliers look so comically out of place lmao
>>96548202you lost and have no credit, I win.
>>96548224I accept your unconditional surrender.
I accept your concession, you lose.
>>96548245I accept your concession, you lose.Stay salty
you lose, i windie mad about it
>>96544619>ruins your RPG's and culture
>>96546549He's certainly in the thread.
>>96548224>>96548230>>96548245>>96548481>>96548513Shut the fuck up.
>>96548689Nope, you lost.
Gygax's legacy is pretty faded at this point. I would wager that a large majority of D&D players don't even know who he is.
Gygax's legacy is going strong at this point. I would wager that a large majority of D&D players know who he is.
>>96546283>Not that anyone would dream in a billion years to copy the absolute trash that is the D20 system!Compare to what.FYI I am already laughing at your answer.
>>96548797MCDM.No you aren't, you're seething.
>>96546096>When he moved to California to try and start up the D&D entertainment division, even with millions of dollars to throw around he wasn't able to accomplish anything and had to slink back home.Yeah, because the sheltered Jehovah's Witness boy from Lake Geneva discovered hookers and blow.
>>96546386>I do not wish to speak ill of the dead, but Arneson was possibly retarded.When Arneson published "The First Fantasy Campaign" with Judges Guild, not only did it reveal how scatterbrained he was but he intentionally OMITTED details about Castle Blackmoor.Why?Because his campaign was still ongoing and he didn't want his own players reading the supplement and getting an upperhand on him. So sucks to be you, paying customer!
Gygax didn't force anyone to slavishly follow his original design for 50 years.
>>96544619How?
>>96545811>table so cluttered, maneuver doesn't matter>one army is nothing but 3 aircraft and some vehicles.>>9654821340k players don't care about simulation. They don't want an actual wargame, they just want to smash toys together.
>>96546279>nothing is illogical>he says with a straight face, as people with 40,000 year futuristic weapons have trouble hitting targets 20 feet in front of themYou're an ass-pie retarded autist who is too self-obsessed to understand anything he is saying, and simply has misplaced convictions towards some game that he obsesses over instead of dealing with the actual problems in his life he refuses to face, as if defending war games with little model toys will somehow make the world a better place, despite none of his arguments even making postulatory sense.
>>96547984NTA, but Vancian magic IS retarded. It originates from a world that doesn't have actual magic but instead people were performing a futuristic form of technology/math in order to manipulate reality. In other words, Vancian magic is not "real" magic in the sense that you are conjuring spirits/energy/inner power, you are simply performing a higher degree of autistic mathematics.Which is absolute shit and in direct opposition to all previous ways magic was thought to function in both mythology and literature.
>>96549363>Vancian magic is not "real" magicOh god it's this butthurt autist again
>>96545811at least half of the "problems" people have with rpgs here would be solved if they just played a wargame instead so if there was never the name rpg and people called them "light wargame systems with campaign rules" i unironically think more people would be less opposed to trying other stuff
>>96549757You say this but get turned off by anything with less charop and rules that D&D. There's plenty of fantasy systems with less rules than WotC D&D and you know what happened? The only rules light genre with any serious following is...OSR.You don't want less rules, you just want to feel more powerful.
>>96545816I encourage you to watch Secrets of Blackmoor. It is a great little documentary on some of the lesser known history of D&D. So if you liked reading the info in this post you'll probably enjoy it. If you don't give a fuck about TTRPG history, skip it.Dave Arneson introduced Gygax to the concept of the TTRPG. Gygax codified the rules and turned it into a product. Without Arneson the idea would have never got to Gygax. Without Gygax the rules would have never hit paper and been published.The abridged history is they made the Kriegsspiel as one of the first war games back in the 1800s.It was big on having an Umpire/Ref. Some Civil War general found it and made a version for the Civil War called Strategos. A gaming club in Missouri found that book and adopted the idea of a ref and being able to try anything, coming up with Strategos N. They kept experimenting and giving people smaller and smaller units. Eventually David Wesely set up a game where you controlled one guy called Braunstein. It got out of control, but people loved it. After a few tries they figured out the freedom to do whatever and the Ref making rulings on it was what made the game so fun.David Arenson was a Braunstein player who took over being the ref after David Wesely had to leave the group for his military career. Arneson made Blackmoor set in a fantasy world and Gygax saw it at a convention and started up his own game. The two of them collaborated to make the first D&D.The documentary is kind of pro-Arneson because it has a lot of his friends in it. Gygax dicked over Arneson and they are rightfully salty.
>>96547938>muh game balancequite the opposite. tourney faggotry has encouraged nothing but skew lists in games like 40k. when most other games, and old 40k, had restrictions on divisions because manpower economy, resource economy, and command structure are a thing and have to be at least partially simulated
>>96551018>quite the opposite. tourney faggotry has encouraged nothing but skew lists in games like 40kYep so they designed it out of the game entirely. No fun allowed! The proper way to play has to be MANDATED and REQUIRED!
>>96551466"Proper 40k" isn't possible under currently published rules.(Not a impossible problem, older rules and alternative rule sets exist, but it doesn't overcome the mutilation of the game, setting, and model lines. Good luck finding opponents.)
>>96551652>"Proper 40k" isn't possibleNever was because it's a dumbass wargame. Turns out making a competitive tabletop game doesn't work if you give people freedom, wowww who knew?
>>96546386>>96548123>>96548933I love how Gary dick-riders revert to gossip and hearsay in defense of him, unable to combat the literal fact that it was Arneson that started it all, NOT the thieving, canniving, backstabbing, power-hungry, piece of shit, Gygax.You can call him scatterbrained, inept, incompetent, slow, even retarded. But you can't call him a liar. But you can call Gary Gygax that.
>>96549376>againThank you for supporting my point by making me aware that other people have made this exact same statement.
>>96552918I don't consider you to be a person.
>>96552929>I don't consider you to be a person.Never said you did, shit for brains, but who's splitting hairs here? You're just a genetic dead end with no future, meanwhile I have a family! Cheers! You'll be dead and out-bred in 40 years!
>>96552956As a parent, you have a duty to spend less time acting like a huge faggot online, buddy.
>>96552973I don't take parenting lessons from self confessed genetic dead ends lmao, you can suck my left nut until the right one's jealous
>>96552912>gossip and hearsayIt is well documented fact.
>>96552973>as a parentHe isn't.
>>96552980It's gonna be really funny when all your kids turn gay on you.
>>96553033Got it.
>>96548797>FYI I am already laughing at your answer.And then the D&D fag is surprised why everyone hates him as a person.>Compare to what.Literally EVERYTHING.For example whatever system talisman uses.>NOOOO I must scale my damage based on my characters strengthLOL>And also dexterity and strength are 2 separate and different things.... >Because .. .because .. .because .... because Gygax has schizophrenia!
>>96549337>over instead of dealing with the actual problems in his life he refuses to face, as if defending war games with little model toys will somehow make the world a better placeWOW sir I have never seen a Gary dick-rider as you.At this point this must be some for of gay necrophilia.>with 40,000 year futuristic weapons have trouble hitting targets 20 feet in front of themLOL is this the best you can come up with? If you look at the rules you quickly realize that 40K is basically medieval combat the rules for a bullet deflecting are identical to an arrow deflecting from medieval plat male. And you can go>Oooo today I learned something about real life medieval warfare>futuristic weapons haveIf you failed to realize it the lore explicitly says the imperium is dogshit and regressing technologically this is why these jokers also use candles etc. The point was you insufferable fagot that it is easier for anyone to understand that every le futuristic space unit shoots like they are all drunk then to understand the concept of armor class or Aliment or Vancian magic system.The point is that a shoot is a shot, a swing with a sword is a swing and getting hit by a sword is getting hit by a sword. And evasion is an evasion, a deflect from armor is deflect from armor. In D&D no one has any idea what is going on when they lose HP or WTF even HP is! Are you getting stabbed in the face you clowns or not?
>>96549363>but Vancian magic IS retarded.This.Not only is it from a long forgotten and irrelevant book....If it was not for the schizo Gygax whose schizo brain somehow got activated by the idea of Vancian magic NO one would be talking or aware that this retardation exists. Vancian magic in D&D is next level schizophrenia.I have seen D&D fags try to explain Vancian magic and every time they literally need to deny the D&D books to make up their own pet theory>WTF do you mean my mage forgets this spell after using it?>>HE DOSE NOT FORGET IT IT MEANS>Look here it says FORGET>>REEEEEI have never seen a more perfect example of this meme only real.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFrrlCStRFASimply imagine that your mage is a revolver and loads magic bullets into himself. Anything outside of that is pure insanity.
>>96552944>Never said you did, shit for brains, but who's splitting hairs here? You're just a genetic dead end with no future, meanwhile I have a family! Cheers! You'll be dead and out-bred in 40 years!BASED!
>>96553118>>96553168Sup Zombieapocalypse Anon. Great news, it's trivially easy to model exhaustion from combat in 5e, simply apply exhaustion penalties to pcs every encounter the way you would for inclement weather or forced marches.
>>96553407>, it's trivially easy to model exhaustion from combat in 5eIs it something in the core rules?>to model exhaustionIs Vancian magic in the core rules?>Sup Zombieapocalypse Anon>There are no zombies in D&DWhy are you like this?
>>96553151>>96553168Don't care, it's unrealistic garbage nonsense.>the imperium is regressing technologicallyAnd yet they still have galaxy-travelling interstellar space ships, lmao, fucking tard. Get dunked on, faggot.
>>96552980He literally just said he had a family. Man you be fuming.
>>96549077>40k players don't care about simulation.I do, the problem is that a wargame with>simulation>/yourdudes/>proper monster faction(s)doesn't exist, so yes older 40k editions or OPR are basically the only options.
>>96550601>Without Gygax the rules would have never hit paper and been published.No, Arneson always could have gone to someone else. In fact, we probably all would have been better of if he did.He went to Gygax because he thought Gygax was the guy who made Chainmail, without understanding that Jeff Perren had been the primary brain behind that game and Gygax would stab him in the back.If Arneson had taken the game to an actual designer, and not the hack that was Gygax, the original D&D probably wouldn't have been so broken. It was actually even worse in its first printing, because Gygax rushed it out in order to try and get first-mover advantage over several other similar games that were soon to be published.
>>96553009One of them already gave me a grandson.>>96554723>He literally just saidAnd like most inbreds he lied. He got so mad he reported my posts and then got banned btw.
rpgs were never good
>>9654907740k players are just babby wargamers. they will grow up to cherish the dumb shittery of 40k and move on to a more complex game system when its right.
>>96554814But he didn't....There's no reason to believe he would have either. Given how he's been before and since, it really took Gygax to push to get rules published at all. His Blackmoor game had been going on for years with a good number of players and no one tried to get rules developed before Gary did it.Don't misunderstand, I don't think that Gary is a good developer but he was the only developer that moved things from being some thing happening in a community center ad hoc into a product that players across the world could try.
>>96553168I don't think most people who started with 5e even know what "Vancian Casting" is supposed to mean. At this point, it's a mechanic that's part of the game because it's a D&D thing which they do because it's a thing D&D does. A tautological sacred cow.
>>96554989>wargaming is only about rules and systems
>>96555379Yes? That’s the entirety of the simulation the names of things and the setting is entirely secondary you can change those to whatever you want them to be.
>>96554814>No, Arneson always could have gone to someone else. In fact, we probably all would have been better of if he did.He went to Judge's Guild and the resulting product was straight ass. Arneson alone couldn't make TTRPGs into the phenomena it would be. He would either put together some incomprehensible ruleset or someone else would've stolen his idea.
>>96555468>Yes?The most popular wargame has never gotten popular due to its rules.Few people are gonna play your wargame-par-excellence if it involves pushing red rectangles vs blue rectangles.>That’s the entirety of the simulationThe ramifications of what is simulated and how it is simulated hinges on the setting. >you can change those to whatever you want them to be.The simulation is hurt in the process of that. You can't really take bolt action rules and plug Infinity miniatures into it. Or well, you can, but few would consider the result to be satisfactory.And yes, people get into wargaming for miniatures and their visual design. Or fluff/extension by which the wargame can support narrative or yourdudes.
Wasn't he a litigious asshole and a terrible DM?
>>96555137He wasn't the only, he was just the first, and he was only the first because he deliberately rushed a botched product onto the market because he wanted not just the natural first-mover advantages, but to try and sue any similar game that followed.
>>96554611You never did tell me which The Walking Dead character was using magic.
>>96555533people played wargames before with colored blocks and cigarette butts. Just because more hobbying is bundled into it nowadays doesnt mean the simulation part is gone. Just because theres a visual appeal element to the games doesn’t mean the rest of it is gone
>>96555586Do you have any evidence to show that there was an actual attempt to codify and distribute an RPG that was in progress when TSR went public with D&D?
>>96555543>litigiousYeah, he was an American businessman. They're all litigious assholes, but he was quite an asshole.>terrible DMPeople say this because of the advice for punishment in his DMG, but if you've ever been a DM trying to wrangle 10 or more retarded gotcha-players at once I'm sure you'd be prepared to send Conan after their asses too. I don't hear enough stories of Gary being a shit DM to believe that he truly was one.
>>96554710You are using a computer to view the internet while being barely smart enough to not eat your keyboard. Being able to use something does not mean you understand it or be able to make it.
>>96555589>You never did tell me which The Walking Dead character was using magic.You need to stop you already agreed I won this debate no need to humiliate yourself further and make me win more.>You never did tell me which The Walking Dead character was using magic.See you made a spelling mistake here let me fix that.>You never did tell me which The Walking Dead character was using A MELEE weapon.About every character.>REEE NOOO D&D Has no melee weapons!>REEE there are no zombies in D&D!See you lost the debate again.>REEE That is a oversimplification D&D is a oversimplification of using a melee weaponThen why does the D&D system have a limit on spells that can be cast?>I literally do not understand how this is relevant!You are retarded or/and a obtuse D&D fag.You failed the IQ test and everyone is laughing!
>>96553168that is not how king crimson works
>>96556646I've never gotten an answer to this
>>96554778In that case, I didn't mean you, Anon. You're good with me.
>>96545899From what I've heard over the years from secondary sources, Arneson was just a terrible writer, in the literal sense. He couldn't come up with a readable manuscript to save his life.Giving credit for ideas is murky business because Arneson himself got the idea from playing in the Braunstein games being run at his LGS - so then do we also give credit to the creators of that proto-playstyle?I believe that Arneson and Gygax deserve equal credit for creating the hobby as we know it today (Arneson did produce more than just D&D in the years following, it was just never as popular). Arneson would not have made D&D without Gygax or someone else to help him actually write the thing, and Gygax wouldn't have made it without Arneson there being an "ideas guy" and being his inlet to the Braunstein games.
>>96545899That doesn't sound too bad if you take out your editorializing.
>>96544619>pluralizing with an apostropheEw please don't do that
>>96545811lol Gmfags really do pay for these pieces of plastic from the 80's with a 900% markup lmao talk about stockholm syndrome
Is this the /dogshittakes/ general?Because we are at a parody level over here
>>96548861So basically a 4rrie. Unsurprisingly.>>96553118>Literally EVERYTHING.So basically you don't have actual opinions, only contrarianism. Gotcha.
>>96549363>In other words, Vancian magic is not "real" magic in the sense that you are conjuring spirits/energy/inner power, you are simply performing a higher degree of autistic mathematics.This is how magic of the old worked.
>>96561452I don't think anyone will deny that Gary wrote many of the original D&D books and played an instrumental role in the spread of D&D which led to RPGs become a hobby unto themselves. However, the claim is usually that Gygax invented RPGs, that he wrought D&D wholly from the aether by himself, from his early idea of the Chainmail wargame rules, and so on. That's the contentious claim.Gygax got the idea from Arneson who was not angling to turn Blackmoor into a brand and a company and to sell it all over the world. Without Arneson, D&D doesn't get made. Without Chainmail, which wasn't made by Gary either, Blackmoor doesn't happen. Without Braunstein, none of it happens. To say he was unimportant would be equally incorrect, but many people in the thread aren't implying that. Just that Gygax's reputation is greatly exaggerated. Kinda like how Keiji Inafune went around crediting himself as "The Father of MegaMan" when the entire game was already plotted out, including MegaMan's design, before Inafune was ever hired to do some character designs. His contributions were valuable, but he didn't create MegaMan, the idea, the formula, or anything like that. He helped and he mattered, but he wasn't the the mastermind that made it all possible.
>>96544619perfect ying yang then because in a way he got TTRPGs off the ground and into the mainstream for many to enjoy and if OP is right then is also the cause for why they are the way they are today: bad. But I don't think it is Gygax's fault. I think that is mostly the fault of players.
