Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General, the thread dedicated to first-decade Gygaxian D&D, its various modern clones, and content created specifically for use with this. Later editions (2e and newer) should be discussed elsewhere.Broadly, OSR games encourage a tonal and mechanical fidelity to Dungeons & Dragons as played in the game's first decade (74-83) — less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching meta-plots and a greater emphasis on player agency.If you are new to the OSR, welcome! Ask us whatever you're curious about: we'll be happy to help you get started. We also have two excellent beginner guides created by Anons with feedback from the thread, feel free to check them out for answers:>n00b DM's Guidehttps://pastebin.com/EVvt6P0B>n00b Player's Handbookhttps://pastebin.com/XALkXkV0>Troves, Resources, Blogs, etc:http://pastebin.com/9fzM6128>Need a starter dungeon? Here's a curated collection:https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/94994969/#95006768>Previous thread:>>96799302Continuing from the last thread. Gaze attacks: how do you resolve them?
there is already a thread >>96815556
>What's an OSR? >Don't know how to get started? The friendly n00b guides can be found here: >n00b DM's Guide https://pastebin.com/EVvt6P0B >n00b Player's Handbook https://pastebin.com/XALkXkV0 Want to contribute to the thread but don't know where to start? Use this table. >1. Make a spell >2. Make a monster >3. Make a dungeon special >4. Make a wilderness location >5. Make an urban set piece >6. Make a magic item >7. Make a class, race, or race-as-class >8. Make a 4-10 room lair. >9. Make a trap >10. Roll 2D10 and combine
I'll just say for the record that I preferred the >Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General, the thread dedicated to first decade, Gygaxian D&D, its more faithful modern clones, and content created specifically for use with them. Later editions (2e and newer) should be discussed elsewhere.>Broadly, OSR games encourage a tonal and mechanical fidelity to Dungeons & Dragons played as intended and taught by its creators from 1974 to 1983 — less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching metaplots and a greater emphasis on player agency.phrasing from >>96801529 although I don't set myself up for an authority. Also, given the circumstances I get why you had to make this one quickly and might not have felt like fucking around for exact phrasings in the last thread.TL:DR death to faggotry whether fish- or Hodgson-based, glory to /osrg/.
>>96815802Yeah, that was exactly it: tried to make some quick additions based on discussion but was in a hurry because of the hijacker. We can continue to tweak over the next few threads.
>>96815785dogshit troll attempt
>>96815816For sure.
>>96815749>Continuing from the last thread. Gaze attacks: how do you resolve them?I already posted my take on gaze attacks here: >>96814887, although I will say that the MMII guidelines on handling gaze attacks are pretty good *as long as* you don't take them as clarifications of existing rules, at which point you'll notice that they conflict with almost every petrifying monster in the original Monster Manual.
>>96815917Why is everyone here so autistically aggressive / aggressively autistic?
>>96814966>It's not magic, it's just a thing that happens, then again I've never had such things interact with anti-magic so hard call, I'd probably rule they're non-magic for the most part, an inherent part of the creature.I'm not really seeing this, you figure a beholder's gaze attacks aren't magic? I can kind of see making a specific exception for a creature which just looks supernaturally horrid (classically the medusa) but paralyzing and killing ray attacks, surely not?
>>96815989100%, otherwise the next question is 'Is the Beholder floating in midair magic'From there you end up at '...man this things biology makes zero sense without magic/is made of magic, does it die in the field?'I'd rather just go 'Nah mate, it's a biology thing' and knock off for a pint.
>>96816003Seems obvious to me that it's levitating using magic, not least because the creature description says so (I could've sworn I had a screencap of its MM entry, but now I can't find one so you'll have to do without, sorry). I admit that creates comical consequences if it wanders into an anti-magic field or something, but to me that's just part of the set of viable anti-beholder strategies.
>>96816076(Note: This does mean a Magic-User can just dispel the beholder and make it fall down. It's not even that hard, the base chance of Dispel Magic working is 50% and a beholder counts as a level 10 creature, so if you're level 8 you have a 40% chance of hilarious hijinks)
>>96816120NTA, but Dispel Magic affects items and spells, but I don't think negates anything that could broadly be defined as "magic".
>>96816152Good point actually. I'd have to think about that and reread Dispel Magic before I could argue with it at all.>>96816003>>96816076Found the screencap! Pic related. I also misremembered the beholder's effective HD, have a link to an extensive discussion of this matter from last year:>https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/93798979/#93815219TL;DR the average beholder has an effective HD of 13 or 14.
>>96816152>Dispel Magic affects items and spellsACKCHUALLY it explicitly does not affect items aside from potions, which it destroys. At least in AD&D. Maybe it's different in Basic? Anyway, Dispel Magic (AD&D version) affects all magic it comes into contact with in its area of effect except enchanted items, including "spells cast upon persons or objects". I suppose you could argue that the beholder isn't technically casting a spell of levitation on itself, and if that's how you want to roll at your table I'm not going to break your basement door down and upend your sand table, but for my part I don't think that kind of quibble was intended.
>>96816268No, you're right: no item effects besides potions. Although that makes it even less of a generalist "anti-magic effect".I agree that if you wanted to roll with the spell that way on the table that it's no biggie, but I'd find it annoying to try to arbitrate what effects of X or Y creature are magical vs not to figure out user cases (though the results could get pretty creative).
>>96816345>I'd find it annoying to try to arbitrate what effects of X or Y creature are magical vs not to figure out user cases (though the results could get pretty creative).Yeah, again, fair enough. I get it. Are the beholder's eyestalks magical, or does it just cast spells *through* the eyestalks, etc. etc.
>>96816268Beholder's levitation is inherently magical but not a spell. Same as an enchanted item being inherently magical rather than something that can be dispelled. Magical abilities aren't spells even if they have spell like effects or even use spell mechanics. Seems straight forward enough to arbitrate and implement although there must be edge cases.>that really upends my sand table you know?
The idea that regular henchman use is considered essentially a given in OSR games seems grossly overstated to me based on my experience with AD&D. The AD&D guidelines for recruiting henchmen are incredibly strict, requiring PCs to sink large amounts of time and money into recruitment alone. The DMG states about 1 in 1000 residents of a settlement are suitable for employment as a henchman. In a city with a population of 10000, only 10 people per month are interested in becoming hirelings, and even fewer will respond to PCs posting notices in public, hiring criers, etc. as it's impossible to get a recruiting effectiveness of 100%. That's not even mentioning the odds that a potential henchman would turn down a PCs offer or secretly conspire to stab them in the back. The idea of the PCs in an adventuring party commanding numerous henchmen on their adventures seems like a fabrication based on grossly exaggerated assumptions retainer recruitment. Playing the game RAW, henchmen are rare, useful assets that require significant investment.
>>96817347>The DMG states about 1 in 1000 residents of a settlement are suitable for employment as a henchman.Did you read the next sentence?
>>96817347>The AD&D guidelines for recruiting henchmen are incredibly strict, requiring PCs to sink large amounts of time and money into recruitment alone.This is precisely because it's so powerful. It's like a lot of the other deranged money sink rules of AD&D, like training costs: it was added to either bleed surplus funds off PCs or make abusing the thing/behavior harder or both. In this case I'd guess that Gygax wanted PCs to typically have 1-2 hirelings, not like eight. (By comparison OD&D permits a highly charismatic person to have 12 and the norm is 4; nothing really regulates numbers besides the Charisma score. Whether this is to be seen as an Arnesonism or just something Gygax himself decided over time didn't work, who can say?)>The idea of the PCs in an adventuring party commanding numerous henchmen on their adventures seems like a fabrication based on grossly exaggerated assumptionsNot to be a contrarian shit, but I don't think I've ever actually seen a notion like this expressed. I'd say the big distinction I've seen people make WRT henchmen and the OSR is that old-school PCs typically have them at all, which isn't the norm in 3e or 5e.
>>96816712Posting here just in case
>>96817497You've got Conquering the Barbarian Altanis here:>https://attronarch.com/wilderlandsBen Mazirian's Dreamlands stuff started as a spinoff of a game he was running in the Wilderlands:>https://maziriansgarden.blogspot.com/2013/11/my-ghinor-highlands.html(click the Ruined Ghinor tag for the rest of his posts about it)I'm trying to think of others; I'd swear I've read at least half a dozen accounts of using the CSIO, for example. If I come up wth any I'll post again. Melan has definitely written at various times about playing in the Wilderlands but I don't have any of his posts on it available offhand, sorry.
>>96817347holy fuck lmaoretard nogames
>>96817426Yes>>96817482>In this case I'd guess that Gygax wanted PCs to typically have 1-2 hirelingsIf that. IME and based on the numbers about half the PCs in a campaign at a given time have no retainers, and the other have 1-2, maybe 3 if the player is a fiend. >>96817570Call me "nogames" all you want, doesn't change the fact that 1. I'm correct 2. I run AD&D games every week and have for years 3. you have nothing worthwhile to contribute.
>>96818036You shouldn't even respond to posts like that nogames fag honestly, I'm like 98% certain that's the local sperg trying to make this thread look like it's full of le evil abrasive posters so that he can then accuse it of being unpleasant even though it's his own fault.
>>96818036>uhm ACKSHUALLY HENCHMEN ARE RARE AN UNUSEDmhm, ye okay>>96818082no I just dont like nogames turistas
>>96815749I already know how to play B/X. What's the most popular game that will guarantee me the greastest amount of players?
>>96818082You're right, but sometimes I can't help myself>>96818109Well then why don't you tell me why I'm wrong instead of being a massive faggot (actually I know why; it's because I'm right + you are a massive faggot)
>>96818339Probably B/X. If your sole criteria is widest appeal /potential playerbase while still being OSR, B/X and OSE games are the most popular, as far as I know.
>>96818355Nta, but he's kinda right, if a bit rude. Playing the game btb necessitates hireling use pretty quickly if you track any amount of encumbrance with coins, wilderness encounter numbers or have gaps in party composition. You could get by with just hirelings and mercenaries but henchmen will be needed for more firepower/utility pretty quickly.
>>96818339D&D 5e with homebrew rules :^)
>>96818339It's almost certainly B/X, yeah. It might, *might* get a bit more attention if you call it OSE instead depending on where you're at, but they're the same game, so.
>>96818401>>96818830Is OSE the same system? What if I want to play a game with sword & sorcery themes (Primeval Thule, On Mighty Thews, Barbarians of Lemuria, Planets of Peril, etc.) I'm looking for a fairly generic system that will allow me to play freely. B/X kind of constrains you to play with the established classes and I'm looking for something with low magic, weird, pulpy fiction.
>>96818893It is yeah: rewritten for clarity and conciseness (and in the process removing all the gameplay advice), but the same system. So if B/X doesn't work for you, neither will OSE.
>>96818893Yeah, OSE is just B/X rewritten and stripped of most of the explanatory text in favor of a "modern" reference-style layout. Honestly it's probably better at the table, but flavorlessly written compared to B/X and not nearly as good at teaching the game.>What if I want to play a game with sword & sorcery themesThen you have a few options. Hyperborea (formerly Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea, but the name was too much of a mouthful) is a heavier game, based on AD&D, but has a bunch of classes and this spiffing map for a setting.Or, if you want a lighter and more loosey-goosey system you could try an LBB OD&D derivative. For your purposes the best would probably be Seven Voyages of Zylarthen; the aesthetic in the books isn't exactly Conan, because all the art was lifted from the same Edwardian(?) public-domain illustrator, but the rules work admirably well for sword & sorcery. There are a couple other OD&D clones you could try, like the relatively straight imitation Swords & Wizardry.Be warned though, effectively any D&D derivative pretty much constrains you to play with the established classes. That's just a core element of how D&D works. So you may be disappointed either way, depending on exactly what it is you're after.
>>96815786n00b PHB anon here. I updated the doc with a recommended reading list cribbed from Appendix N.Also fixed the broken second link.https://pastebin.com/XALkXkV0
>>96819237Nice one, Anon! I'll try to remember this, if I make the next thread. Otherwise hopefully whoever does make it will remember.
Is there an O.S.R. version of the World of Darkness?
>>96819395Fortunately not. Is there some specific WoD trait you're after?
>>96819374Note the link to the pastebin works fine; the problem was the upload to the anon file site. It redirects now.
>>96819406Oh, duh. My bad.
>>96818036>did you read the next sentence >yes >still goes with 1:1000 ratio Can't help the retarded. Adjust the ratio between 1:200 to 1:1000 as needed. Shit's not complicated.
>>96819395Esoteric Enterprises and Deep Morphean Transmissions. Probably get more traction discussing them and WoD style stuff in the nusr thread. >>96803352
>>96819403Modern paranormal adventures.
>>96820128Oh, alright, cool. I'm not sure OSR games are really a good fit for that, though, because the two classic pillars of OSR gameplay are dungeon delving and wilderness adventures. I guess you could have sewers and such stand in for the dungeons, but it seems like it would get monotonous to go down there and find chuds and Ron Perlman every time. Esoteric Enterprises might be your best bet, as Anon suggested. I haven't read it myself though, so it might suck for all I know.
>>96820282>and Ron PerlmanHa, I understood that reference. Damn I'm old
>>96820282>dungeon delving and wilderness adventuresnta but I could see it being translated now that you've said it aloud. Just make it delving abandoned places and urban exploration.While it's not entirely thread relevant I've actually done something kind of similar in the past in a solo game, in an urban fantasy "Magic is real and underground" type setting.Dungeons? Ruins of various places wizards have hung out in the past, monster-haunted derelict places ala the Tunnels and pocked dimensions.Exploration? Depth rather than distance, set it all in one big ass city (I used London) and have players peeling back layers of history/finding strange places in among the ordinary. You can pass the same little side alley a dozen times but it's only once you know the weird, fucky little shop that sells cursed antiques is down there that you'll note it as worth looking into.Hope that helps a bit at least.
>>96820896Not the anon who asked for OSR WoD, but your post does illustrate the problem. The campaign you describe could definitely work, but it's a highly specific campaign. Basing an entire game around it wouldn't have nearly the versatility of the typical fantasy OSR game. That's what it seems like to me anyway.
>>96821341Oh it's 100% highly specific, but it's one of those "If that's what you want here's how to do it." type deals.Besides, you can still hit the OSR fundamentals by keeping it open/let them figure out their own path to glory/power/bitches beyond measure.As for versatility, you can keep things fairly open by remembering one benefit that the modern world has; with about $2k you can go anywhere.But yeah, it's definitely a niche setting, more so than sci-fi or fantasy and you need a hook for it beyond "Play Dave from Accounting going about his normal life", something to be a mythical underworld below & beyond.
>>96821404I pretty much agree with all of that, I just mean it's hard to imagine someone producing a whole game representing one niche concept like this, especially since OSR games are typically big on openness and player agency. Come to think of it, though, Free League's whole business model is to publish campaigns and call them games, so maybe I'm just off-base here.
>>96819395Shadow city by chubbyfunster.It has random encounter tables, d100 rumors and a 1 mile hex city generator.It's Shadow dark but Vampire isn't TSR published either.It was uploaded to /NV/
