>>97135533
>TQ
I think I'd like to travel along the Southern coast, particularly to see Chiaroscuro, which sounds like a magnificent sight.

>>97135533
>TQ
Rakshastan hooks my imagination easily, though I'd only try it if we were roaming, had some fast transport, and some decent-or-better Wyld protection or Wyld Shaping Technique to fall back on. The more settled places Skyport and Ilio Stara seem incredible to visit.

>>97135533
Island-hopping across the West

File: typo.jpg (35 KB, 735x541)

35 KB JPG

>>97135533
>>97112000
Fuck, I forgot to link the previous thread again, because I copied the last threadhead again, and the one before last forgot to copy it. I'm so dumb.

At least I remembered to add the draft.

>>97136245
It's okay, I mess up a lot two.

>>97136201
Talking about raksha.

I found this short story, it is a really good example of mortals meeting with one.m, and how terrifying they can be.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wendigo

Total Annihilation is an environmental effect in 3e. I knew taking Element-Resisting Prana was worth it

>>97137750
Why did they split that single specificl spell into two spells? What were they thinking?

Assuming you have a specialty, how many dots in Lore would you need to be a lawyer in Creation?

Options for getting some Attribute-based Yozi Charms:
>Lunars who were adaptable enough to survive the upheavel of the World Joutens in the Primordials who became Yozi during the war...but who subsequently got shoved up Malfeas's Ass with the rest of the Yozi (They do something similar to the Infernals involving Exaltations implanted into 1CDs that then merge with Mortals)
>The Alchemicals of a Matropolis that somehow got yeeted into the Realm Malfeas (They use Charms built by the inhabitants of the Demon City.)

>>97135533
Cool pic

>>97137750
>The emerald light is an environmental hazard with difficulty 5. Unlike most hazards, it inflicts five levels of aggravated damage on a failed roll, or five dice of aggravated damage on a successful roll. Characters damaged by it are exposed to green sun wasting (p. XX), and are permanently blinded if they suffer 3+ levels of damage. Those killed by it become shadows smeared across the landscape, leaving not even dust behind. The hazard deals uncountable damage to trivial characters, Might 0 battle groups, and most mundane scenery. It always counts as a source of recurring uncountable damage for Charms capable of defending against them.

>Once the hazard reaches long range, it releases a shockwave of burning ash and tainted air at the end of the next round. This is a lesser environmental hazard with difficulty 5, Damage 5L that extends out to short range from the emerald light’s edges. At the end of each subsequent round, it expands outward by one range band, but its difficulty is reduced by 1 each time. Once it reaches long from the blaze’s edge, it disperses. With that, the emerald light finally curdles and collapses, leaving desolation in its wake.

>Control: The sorcerer’s anima and eyes throb with emerald light. She can hurl the orb out to long range and is immune to being blinded by both the initial flash and the hazard. Characters with Ties of fear toward Ligier also treat them as applying to the sorcerer while interacting with her.

Goddamn, this thing hits way harder than in 2e (if you can’t BTFO environmental effects). Control effect is a bit weak but I guess it can afford to be.

>>97138996
>Lunars so useless they were forgotten about and abandoned in Malfeas
Lmao

>>97138996
>3 yozy decided to join forces to create their own Exalted.
>hey weren't diminished because Oramus sacrificed his wings in their stead.
>Which allowed him to scape to the beyond.

>>97138331
I dunno, maybe something like 2. I think in a lot of places it'd be more a matter of having a lot of Presence or even Performance than a lot of lore. My understanding is that in ancient Greece and Rome defense and prosecution was often more about the character of the accused than about any complicated legal arguments, and at least in Rome court cases were often a chance for aspiring young politicans to show off their rhetorical skills and build a reputation that way. Obviously Exalted's neither Greece nor Rome, but I think the justice system in a lot of places, including a lot of highly civilized by Age of Sorrows places, is likely to be more similar to ancient Greek and Roman practices than to any modern system. Of course, in a lot of places being a professional lawyer might just not be a thing.

>>97140942
Investigation is also in need if you're not just the "help with slapping irons on the most obvious scapegoat" type. Or, I guess, if you excel at entrapping people who are less obvious targets, too.

Did the 3e sorcery book ever get released?

File: water roundabout arena.jpg (462 KB, 1700x810)

462 KB JPG

>>97138331
One and a specialty dot would be pretty normal for a lawyer, I think. That's equivalent to two dots in 1e/2e, but in 3e one + specialty is needed for Introduce a Fact.

The harder thing will be finding somewhere the law is respected and you can speak up without overruling or being overruled by everyone based on a small status difference. I'm trying to think of somewhere that wouldn't happen all the time, and it's like... the Realm, when there aren't any Dragonblood involved? It'd be gutted and crumbling with the Scarlet Empress missing though.

In most places they'd have (professional or not) mediators, advocates, councilors, advisors, and ambassadors doing the things you'd associated with lawyers, or so I would expect. People who are respected by and ideally associated with neutral third parties. The King's vizier or jester advocating for his people, or the Guild's mediators negotiating between local groups, that sort of thing.

>>97141234
>Did the 3e sorcery book ever get released?
No

>>97140942
>>97141273
Think I'll go for the old fashioned division of law, solicitors (litigators / desk lawyers) need Lore and Linguistics, whereas barristers (advocates / courtroom lawyers) need Lore and Presence/Performance.

>>97141682
Bureaucracy is the actual key skill that'd indicate job competency here, unless you're planning on really in-depth Pheonix Wright-style stories being common.

>>97141800
Bureaucracy is delivering through others more often

>>97141805
The description of the Ability in 3e includes expertise and familiarity with legal codes. Like, in the first sentence.

I really feel like the people who don't care for the high concept philosophy mojo are playing a fundamentally different game than the people who read GoD and had a spiritual experience. I feel like that's the real core of all of the arguments that happen around this game.

>>97141871
You're no different to people who still play AD&D because 3.5 'ruined' the game

>>97141876
This got aggressive really quickly.

>>97141805
>>97138331
1e/2e actually have rules for one particular case where you would have lawyers, judges, and a court of law where the law is respected somewhat, and that's with celestial audits.

The process of a legal audit, whether into criminal cases or general ones, is an extended Manipulation + Bureaucracy action. Legal maneuvering in the courtroom itself, such as via examining and cross-examining witnesses, is Intelligence + Bureaucracy.

>>97141871
GoD was cool but it didn't make me want to change from the sword and sandal or martial arts epic vision of the game. To me it was kind of weird and heady and took a lot of time to say not a lot in practical terms. I know a lot of people treat that and Sidereals as like their setting defining books, but I was always more of a scavenger lands guy.

>>97141871
>high concept
Words that I now realise had disappeared from this thread after that one anon crushed the last idiot who was using them without actually understanding them. I hadn't realised how thankful I should've been for that. Anyway, moving on.

The difference I see is between people who see that as a hypothetical endgame to aspire towards, vs the people who see it as what they came to the game for. It's a bit like there's a bit of a split in, say, D&D 3.5 classes such that a pretty clear tier list had to be made to put people in the right games, or how there's a bit of a divide in oWoD between goth horror enthusiasts and superhero-with-a-masquerade urban fantasy types. Theoretically the game has the space for both if you push it, and at certain times the lines have leaned towards particular playstyles, but ultimately it IS a matter of style, and it IS a good thing if a game is flexible enough to be turned to multiple purposes, and it does all come down to the table at the end of the day.

>>97141977
I only used it because it's been used here before and everybody seems to get what it means, on top of being much faster today type and convey then something like "big platonic ideals and their myriad interpretations in the form of magic representing them".

File: 1656998814227.png (678 KB, 693x875)

678 KB PNG

my games have very human stakes and characters but are very grand and involve yozis and monstrous apocalyptic magic and feats. I think it can work. try it sometime, bros

>>97142018
>"big platonic ideals and their myriad interpretations in the form of magic representing them"
I certainly don't think it means that. High concept is an art term. It essentially means it uses ideas that are easily pitched and do what they say on the tin. Exalted has a low concept narrative style, which is to say that it tries to be character-driven and build a whole and complex world to situate games in. The end of 2e, especially under Ink Monkeys, had a lot of high concept narratives introduced. Games of Divinity is mostly in the middle-field. 1e Exalted had a lot of high concept charms, in that they basically did what they said on the tin and skipped over describing complex mechanics in favor of just working, or otherwise firmly married what the charms said they did to the mechanics they presented in straightforward manner. Examples of high concept charms in 1e are Sandstorm-Wind Attack or Invisible Statue Spirit, while examples of low concept charms might be Fire and Stones Strike or Blurred Form Style.

File: 1512925102223.png (120 KB, 214x259)

120 KB PNG

>"this game is about the consequences of success, not whether you succeed"
>game's mechanics assume it's about whether you succeed
>game has no mechanics or decent guidance about consequences of success
>entirely enforced by the ST having to eyeball it
>still doesn't change the fact the game's mechanics are about whether you succeed and not the consequences of your success

>>97141977
I don't like it when things get too much into the Games of Divinity write up territory. If it feels like the game becomes a measure of you needing to be a certain level of conceptually big to play. Here's where I use a pop culture reference to illustrate what I think the game should be like.
In final Fantasy xiv, which I know is a mmo, you play as the Warrior of Light. That's a big title of course. Your first major accomplishment is defeating a fire god created out of pure faith and magical energy that brainwashes people into being its followers. The grandiosity of your feats just continues to skyrocket upwards after that: you defeat more gods, ancient super weapons of a fallen civilization, demons from a broken world of darkness, hyper advanced invaders from another world whose technology can bend time and space, sorcerers of eld that possess magic can recreate lost civilizations on a whim, defeating hopelessness itself at the edge of the universe, and so many more. But ultimately you're still an adventurer. Possibly the most powerful one to ever live, but you're ultimately a guy. You don't change on a conceptual level, you don't become an avatar of some cosmic truth or primal force. In fact, they just lean into the cheese of your human heart being your true strength.
I like that kind of stuff, and for me that is my endgame of Exalted. It's a game about people ultimately. Big people, the Exalted, but they are still just dudes like the Warrior of Light is a dude.

>>97142065
Okay well I didn't mean that. Thanks for the explanation though

>>97142125
Yeah I don't like that and thats one of Exalted's biggest problems which is the playerbase is so divided over what Exalted should be.

>>97142204
It feels weird to me to not like the idea of Exalted being about the Exalted, but I'm willing to hear your own opinion elaborated on.

>>97141977
>how there's a bit of a divide in oWoD between goth horror enthusiasts and superhero-with-a-masquerade urban fantasy types.
After what happened in Vampire 5e, I believe that the line doesn't actually exist, it is hard to put in words, but is a case of "rules for you, but not for me".
"Your game should be a misery fest that ends in TPK, mine is doing everything that I said is ruining the game".
A more Exalted related example is the players interacting with the primordials, the fanboys/devs will go and write about those grandiose characters, but if a player suggests to dance with Malfeas, the devs/fanboys will throw a bitch fit

>>97142318
I would tell you no, but only because that sounds boring. You should be having a dance off against the Pallid Dancer, as only your sick moves can banish him and his Gauntourage and thus cleanse the shadowlands he rules.

>>97142363
>I would make up a literally who rather than let you dance with the Brass Dancer

>>97142318
it's the divide between the people who play and the people who just jerk off

>>97142411
Yes, of course. This guy I made up just now has this immediately accessible plotline, with stakes unique to this hypothetical campaign. I also tailored him to be Undead Michael Jackson which is pretty cool, and driving them out and healing the land with your happy holy feet is a real victory and would be a cool and meaningful character moment for a PC.

>>97142363
Like I said, this is the kind of "high concept" stuff that they bitched about.
They may write about similar things, but once the players interact with something in a non-conventional way, they will shutdown.

>>97142438
I wrote the counter example mostly because I do think dancing with Malfeas sounds boring as compared to a showdown against a clear foe with something tangible to win or protect.

>>97142318
Mildly related.
New fans to the series obsess over the biggest fantastical stuff like Ebon Dragon and...Ebon Dragon and...Ebon Dragon. Also the Celestial Incarna and maybe a few Deathlords. Rarely will many of these new people take a liking to liking to the Realm outside of the Realm Defense Grid

They obsess over it so much and are so annoying that other people start to dislike those elements and will alter them in such ways that they'll never be involved in stories or will only show up in the most abstract and dismissive ways to make sure that annoying new players who obsess over them feel suitably alienated.

There's nothing wrong with a game about interacting with those high power level, high setting related characters in isolation. There's just a culture surrounding it that you have to deal with.

>>97142461
The Realm’s problem is that Solars are the most popular splat, and they and most of the others, don't really have a reason to care for the minutiae of the Realm.

>>97142437
Your example genuinely a lot less captivating than surviving a dance with the Brass Dancer, which contains an entire mythological dimension that can only exist because you are an Exalt sharing reverie with a broken world body that can only find solace through dance. You, an Exalt, likely holding an incarnation that was part of the quorum that decided his fate. There's so much to read it and extrapolate there.

I think you are coming at this from the assumption that dancing with the Brass Dancer is something that happens a lot in various people's games rather than an example that is brought up sometimes, which is two separate things entirely.

>>97142485
this kind of is a problem yeah. the 'realm' and 'immaculacy' kill solars on site, so most people aren't even going to want to interact with them all that much because they're never going to be able to engage with all that setting material unless they're good at disguise.

>>97142485
The "default" (and the best by far) game premise is Solars exalting in the middle of the Realm and having to make the most out of their precarious situation.

>>97142437
random low concept character you come up with can never beat more established characters in aura

>>97142504
not a single named npc in any white wolf slop has aura

>>97142494
Yeah I'm not feeling it. He's not really relevant to Creation anymore and I don't see any point to dancing with him. Who cares if he has solace or finding quorum with him? He's meaningless compared to the people you can save and the triumphs you can earn in the world

>>97142503
Any campaign that actually revolves around an impeding Wyld Hunt encounter is automatically disqualified from being 'the best' because that is utter misery to run.

>>97142503
Of 1e's Solars, out of head, only Lyta exalted in the blessed isle.

>>97141931
I think Scavenger Sons is cool, but it portrays a lot more mundane setting than what Creation later became. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is naturally a matter of taste. One tjing I'd like to know, though, is just how the fuck did Halta's writeup in Scavenger Sons become the completely ridiculous nation presented in Kingdom of Halta.

>>97142068
The game not being about whether you succeed is what a specific subset of players claims when someone dares suggest their characters in any way, not an idea guiding the writing of any edition.

>>97142485
As a Solar main, I always want to play games righting the Realm's wrongs and reconquering what is rightfully mine.

>>97142518
I don't really care about a made up ghost guy dancer expy who rules a Shadowland that we have to stop, that's the sort of plot I expect when I play D&D or something.

>>97142524

>One tjing I'd like to know, though, is just how the fuck did Halta's writeup in Scavenger Sons become the completely ridiculous nation presented in Kingdom of Halta.
White Wolf writers don't have sense of scale, and are always trying to one-up other writers, including themselves.

>>97142537
You say that like it's an insult. I enjoy both games, but a challenge against a worthy foe with the prize of protecting innocent life and restoring the world isn't a D&D exclusive concept. I believe this is straight up a suggestion for character motivation in Exalted corebooks. The world is made with threats and injustices to face, tragedies to avert, and people to save. It's weird to say it's D&D to interface with those in the clearly intended ways

Just coming in to chime in that I honestly feel like all the high power stuff and low power stuff can co-exist and that's what I really like about the game.

I'll say it: Malfeas and everything stuffed inside of him is less important and worthy than a single human life.
At least that's what many of my characters think

>>97142554
You started by insulting the other guy's idea lmao. I'm just saying your idea and justifications aren't as good even as you're trying to air brush it. It's just too simple and generic an idea for my tastes, so I wouldn't want to play at your table.

>>97142568
bet you won't say that to his face

>>97142571
I'm not saying I'm insulted. I'm saying you're using D&D "as if it is an insult.". I could expand on the idea, make it more complex with characters and more threads running through it, but I just don't agree that Malfeas is himself some kind of innately interesting thing to interact with especially when you look at all the things in the world that need a hero

>>97142554
It is the blind anti D&D sentiment, found in WW.

At first they hated D&D because it was a "low scale Tolkienesque dungeon crawler, about local heroes", so they wrote Exalted as a "high concept game, where changing or conquering the world is a starting goal".

Than they began to hate D&D because "it is a Tolkienesque freakshit global level game", and began to write exalted to be more about local stories.

>>97142594
He really hasn't come up much in my campaigns as a character, desu. More like a location. But they would because I live those kinds of characters

>>97142595
I just don't think your idea was particularly resonate or interesting in Exalted's setting, the best part about Exalted. It's fairly generic and is something more resonant to d&d

>>97142600
I don't think it's about power level. In my games, the power level and scale is very grandiose but we're still focused on people, even individual mortals because that's what we care about.
>>97142612
I disagree, honestly. Exalted was built on the idea of heroes taking back a broken world on the brink. Almost every single plotseed has a clear point where players are meant to intervene and take control of fate (lowercase f here). Thorns is meant to be saved, the Realm's abuse curtailed, the Wyld repelled and so on. Or made worse if you're feeling particularly Renegade. But that's how Exalted resonates with me and my games and characters are always about that.

>>97142654
It is less power levels, and more scope levels.
Despite being associated with 2e, even in 1e there were shades of "your character goal should be to change the world".

>>97142594
If you say it to his face, his importance and worth becomes equal to the damage he can do to you. You're still more important and worth more than him, he's just scaled up since he's found a way to be relevant to a human now.

The only way he scales past that is if a bunch of humans go to Malfeas at once. Maybe if he holds the lives of a dozen mortals in his hands, he might be as important as one of those mortals.

>>97142685
I would agree with that, honestly. I can't think of a character in my games that didn't start or end up making a lasting change on the world. That's not particularly hard, though lol. Even if you wanted to go full wandering benevolent hero instead of some kind of godking, Creation just has so many serious problems that rolling through and beating bad guys or solving dilemmas WILL change the world. Like, for example, let's say you destroy the Lintha. That's HUGE and will forever change entire regions, but you're still a guy rolling through taking on things he thinks aren't right.

>>97142719
That's not really what's meant by it. I meant that his power and works and even his life hold no value when compared to even just one person. It's a statement that uplifts humanity while throwing down the yozi. He can still be dangerous, but the character thinks that the yozi simply don't count as compared to human life. Happy to explain.

>>97142736
How do they feel about ghosts?

>>97142754
I've had several characters have a similar view on demons, but ghosts are a mixed bag. Some think it's neat that the dead can still be talked to, others think it'd be better if they moved on. I had one game end with destroying the underworld so the concept of ghosts ceased to be, and in that game the character thought unlife denied the soul the dignity of rebirth.

>Devil-Prince Sword Style
Well, that was boring. It's kind of weird to have such a straightforward MA after the weirdness of actual Infernal Charms. Most interesting thing it does is scare people a little, otherwise it's just parry good, stab good, scare people some more, glory kill. Seems like something a nasty Solar could've come up with.

Oh well. I was always more looking forward to sorcery and artifacts for Infernals anyway.

>>97142793
Sometimes a martial art is just a martial art.

>>97142793
Charms are full of roundabout yozi nonsense, the MA is their Solarish raw power coming through

>>97142798
I'd prefer a more interesting martial art to have been the one a splat debuts as. I feel as though I've judged the Bishop's lacklustre SMA too harshly looking at this thing.

>>97142813
>their Solarish raw power
Let me stop you right there, one that's fucking cringe. Two, the lore of this style has nothing to do with Solars. It's actually taught by Suntarankal, created by ancient Lintha corsairs, and maintained for centuries among their descendants to the point Lintha are apparently infamous for challenging opponents with it. It has zilch to do with Solars. It is a Lintha thing.

File: ming-ming-john-2025-5-24.jpg (635 KB, 1920x2640)

635 KB JPG

What kind of campaigns or experiences have you guys had with Abyssal Exalted? I'm getting more into them here lately and would like some examples. Please and thank you, anons.

>>97142793
There's a finite number of ways of mechanically portraying "fight good", specially "cut good", after a while it will become samey

>>97142813
Isn't the Solar raw power best portrayed by just playing a Solar?

>>97142818
>It is a Lintha thing.
the MA is their Linthaish raw power coming through.

Lintha are well known for their raw power after all. And everybody knows that long bloodlines/populations of super-demonblooded enlightened essence wielders capable of practicing martial arts, using artifacts, and performing their own personal kinds of magic fit very well into 3e's setting and direction, yes mhm.

Yep, I was right. Sorcery is in fact much more interesting. Sometimes to the point of impracticality. But absolutely more interesting. Wtf are these Control spell options, Chariot of the Blazing Sun makes flying things (explicitly including Devil-Stars) check their privilege I guess on the off-chance you're in a game where an ST is prepared to run a mostly airborne campaign, and Mirror of Symmetrical Opposition lets you scrape surfaces with silvery ink that let you clash decisive attacks for 5 motes.

>>97142864
I would argue even by those standards, this one is uninteresting. At the very least it could've come with more interesting lore than "Demon pirate man is smug"

>>97142907
It's just not a very interesting Lintha martial art, do a kung fu pose and punch aid at me or something dammit. It feels like a martial art made up by some fanboy who really wanted to BE a Lintha.

>>97142907
See that post about how the devs' game, is different from the players'.

brb, gonna use Sovereign Apparition of Thunder to say the not allowed word

>>97142919
NUCLEAR
For me, it's using Hand of the World-Makers to shape every building in the Realm into a giant dildo and write "property of the Scarlet Empress" on their walls.

File: Unity of the Closed Fist.png (463 KB, 560x493)

463 KB PNG

awwww yeah

>>97142912
I think you're just into things being oddball. It's okay for it to be practical.

>>97142951
This entire release feels like them finally putting back all the fun spells from previous editions into the game and making them Yozi-flavored. Not that I'm complaining.

>>97142968
I'd be okay with it if it wasn't the only Infernal MA present, but as it is. I'm less wowed than I was back when Infernal Monster Style was the representative Infernal MA, even though I didn't necessarily like all the themes it locked you into.

Also practical is fucking lame when you're playing a Solaroid-level demigod who breaks away from human excellence.

>>97142951
I think I'm sticking with the version from the leaked Core Book, the whole not being able to combine with spirits thing is extremely lame

>>97142980
>be solar
>dont wanna be good at thing
Pick only one

>>97143010
>be solar
Sir this is the Infernal kickstarter.

>>97143020
They're still Solars. That's the whole gimmick of why they get to be Good instead of like, I dunno, Dragonblooded. It's literally the powerlevel excuse

File: Stop Looking Into The Camera.png (1.49 MB, 823x1075)

1.49 MB PNG

Now that the Charms and Sorcery are out, reckon I can get chatgpt to make optimised characters and run some white rooms to see who wins between splats?

>>97143031
Well I think you're generalising things too much to defend a fundamentally low effort and uninteresting martial art.

>>97143045
chatgpt can't even optimize 3.5 combats well. Don't bother.

>>97143045
Funny, I tried something similar earlier today. It started hallucinating homebrew Charms. Watch out for them AIs, give them an inch and they'll start retconning in ways to cheat Initiative into existence and start justifying reasons to have like 150+ Charms by E5.

>>97143046
I think it's fine and I think you'll just have to accept some things as being practical when your exalt type isn't a baby yozi anymore.

>>97143020
It was mentioned in other threads that some people see the different exalted types as specs of a single class/splat, it is more notorious with the Solaroids.

>>97142855
I like to draw from Arthurian legend a bit. Even the most homicidal of deathknights will go out of their way to honor their promises, and all have personal honor to uphold. They evangelize death's virtues where they go, and when encountered, they are almost always on a quest for their lord that they will doggedly perform. Their favored subjects are handsomely rewarded for their contribution towards bringing about the end. Everything they do has a macabre nobility to it, even if its just cutting their way through their foes.

>>97143127
I think it's because Solaroids are a dumb concept. Imo, you are a Solar or you aren't. Abyssals and Infernals can be on the same tier of power, but I think because they're all "Solars" people get weird about them having equivalencies or even just slightly tweaked versions of the same charm and it makes them all worse for it.

>>97143075
Funnily enough, despite being technically ability-sorted Infernal Charms feel more transhuman than ever in practice. I like it, even though it's the complete opposite of what was advertised.

>>97143206
>I like it, even though it's the complete opposite of what was advertised.
There's not much that deviates from what the devs said prior to this coming out.

The Solaroid thing IS worse than like, Terrestrial or Celestial power levels. Those are clear abstractions and it's expected that not all of them are equally up to snuff. But you just can't do that with Solars and their evil twins, because Solars MUST be the strongest at actually doing things so the others either get charms that are "sidegrades" that are usually unintentionally slightly worse or better. It's a shit situation to be in.

>>97143243
Cringe.

>>97142736
I don't think that throwing down others to puff up your own ego, which is what your character's attitude sounds to me, can really uplift humanity. It sounds kind of pathetic, to be honest. There are also non-pathetic reasons to not think much of Yozis, such as seeing the suffering they cause to the serfs living within them, or just not thinking much of them because they're not relevant, but that particular way of thinking is inherently sad.

>>97143250
Yes, their faces display a certain "awkwardness" of a modern Disney character.

>>97143331
>I value human life over any and all demons
>sad
Bro, you are probably projecting a lot onto the Yozi.

>>97143331
Hell deserves every bad thing said and done to it. Putting one human life above the entirety of that dimension is both ethical and moral.

I eagerly await the benediction of the Proton man

>>97142068
I feel like that whole concept would be instantly more relevant both thematically and mechanically if Limits didn't feed off failures and instead successes. The Great Curse should ideally be encouraging players to fall to it instead of just being ammo for the GM to fuck with players. Have that shit entice players to risk it, create a positive feedback loop where more success breeds more limit breeds more success, feed those delusions of grandeur that once nearly destroyed Created.

>>97143843
Limit is a dumb mechanic anyway. I always get rid of it.

>>97143051
You mean D&D 3.5e?

What does Lunar Limit Break look like in each edition?

>>97143928
I never see it come up organically in games that do keep it. Sometimes there's just the one guy trying really hard to force it to happen.

>>97144028
No, Busty Barbarian Bimbos, obviously.

>>97144066
It was never organic, Grabowski just really hated the thought of players not playing the exact way that he wanted.

>>97144066
It was a stupid, poorly designed system that tried to force people to be stupid and/or edgy even though they do that already without a punitive mechanic that doesnt even work

>>97143928
>>97144066
I have this exact same experience desu. The only times it comes up is with Abyssal or Alchemicals. The rest it's just never organic, I honestly forget about it until someone is like "ACTUALLY you are at 10 limit now."

>>97144170
It's always forced and lame and to be honest, the idea itself is pretty shallow an uninspired too. Some Solars of the first age could have just genuinely lost touch with their humanity. The Bronze Sidereals could have legitimately reasoned themselves into an extreme action they can never take back. The Great Curse and Limit cheapen decisions in a game that wants to tell you it's about your choices and their consequences.

Is it just objectively better to use Sorcerous Workings rather than Wyld-Shaping technique to achieve the same outcomes? Because it feels like it

>>97144522
Sorcerous Workings is a better system overall, to the point Essence used it as a basis for the venture system.

>>97143556
Nah, anon, read before posting. I said that claiming that throwing down others is uplifting to humanity is sad. I also specifically mentioned reasons for disdaining Yozis I wouldn't consider sad or pathetic.

>>97145013
You're talking like they're another ethnicity of human and not monster spirits locked in an eternal prison because basically the whole world was sick of their shit and teamed up to put them there. They deserve that treatment, and so even collectively, none of them has more inherent value or worth than any human ever will.

>>97145113
And mortals only came into being because the gods found having a consistent source of veneration that was helpless to survive without them to be convenient. By that logic, mortals collectively matter less than the lowliest least god.

024CVDKMV0#SzOg4Hf7S99h

>>97145113
The gods did it mainly to take the games of divinity to themselves.

>>97145013
That's literally what happened and the basis of the setting. The Exalted, men and not gods, cast down the Primordials and began a new age of Creation where it is mankind that steers the ship of the world. Never again will the old masters rule, humanity's victory has uplifited themselves. That's genuinely the point you autistic fuck.

>>97145161
>>97145186
The exalted won the war. you know, people.

>>97145172
thank you nukem man, sorry about forever

>>97145193
>The Exalted, men and not gods, cast down the Primordials and began a new age of Creation where it is mankind that steers the ship of the world.
And it was worse. Entire fundamental aspects of reality entirely ceased to be, never to be recovered. THAT'S the point, you dumb motherfucker. Every single time a bunch of people overturned the order of the world for their own benefit, what was leftover was materially and existentially worse than what came before. The return of the Solars is the big opportunity to fix some of what they broke, and they aren't gonna do it by pretending the shit they tried last time is going to do anything except make things worse for everyone except themselves and only themselves.

>>97145193
I feel like you're misunderstanding something pretty fundamental here, but it's late here and I'm too tired to get into it. I'll just say that improvement of humanity's physical condition is different from considering looking down on Yozis to an uplifting sentiment, and obviously whether or not Yozis and demons are more or less valuable than or just equally valuable to humans from a moral or ethical point of view is also an entirely different matter, unrelated to the fact that humans won and benefited from their victory.

>>97145201
That doesn't seem like a very relevant counterargument to either of those posts.

>>97145257
You've lost sight of an extremely basic setting premise, which is that the Primordials sucked so bad that almost everything that could sign up to fight them did. Those things that were lost are regrettable, but casting them down was the right thing to do because everyone hated the Primordials as they were the worst tyrants imaginable. The world was different, but it was infinitely better for everyone else to be in without them

>>97145257
Oh no, we lost the flubber elemental pole. Anyway...
>>97145285
The Yozi and demons were garbage, throwing them down was good. They deserve to be treated like garbage. They've earned every bit of disdain and contempt

>>97145285
Anon, it is just the zero sum mentality, that anon believes that somebody can only go up if they bring somebody else down

When I said it uplifts humanity, I said it because it meant that my character values humanity and the sanctity of its life more than power or eldritch wisdom or anything that the Yozi or Hell can offer or are. There is no miracle they can do or knowledge they have which compares to the importance of one human soul. Holy shit you guys, you were looking to take offense to a basic ass heroic statement.

>>97145286
>You've lost sight of an extremely basic setting premise, which is that the Primordials sucked so bad that almost everything that could sign up to fight them did.
Not really, we just don't hear about those who didn't because they were genocided by the Exalted host.

>>97145286
The base setting premise is that gods rebelled. That's it. Whether Primordials were bad or not is kind of irrelevant - I mean, we know they weren't benevolent and kind-hearted rulers, but we also know there were flourishing civilizations in their time on Creation, and that there were races that fought for them, so their reign can't have been a complete horrorshow sufficient to make everyone hate them. Gods rebelled because they weren't keen on eternal slavery and because they wanted all the cool stuff the Primordials had. Humans helped them because some of them were Exalted, which is pretty awesome, and also humans had obvious and significant material benefits waiting for them if they won. Dragon Kings helped because they worshiped the Unconquered Sun, Jadeborn because of Autochthon. Did any of the other races of the time even choose to side with the rebels? Lintha and Alaun, at least, stuck with Primordials.

>>97145332
I didn't take offense, anon, I just said that I don't consider than an uplifting sentiment.

>>97145373
How is it not? You're a human right? Wouldn't you feel uplifted if you, random commoner without anything special, are considered of greater importance than all the dark miracles and vastness of Hell and its dark masters? Wouldn't that make you feel like you aren't a dirt spec to understand that a hero thinks you're irreplaceable and significant?

Yozi brainrot is real. The apologism is honestly getting annoying

>>97145401
TED approves.

>>97145400
Personally, I don't like being jacked off at random, no.

>>97145400
No, and the part of that sentiment I consider pathetic is specifically the comparison to others, the need to have someone be less than you to feel "uplifted". What I'd consider uplifting is looking at highest achievements of humanity and knowing that people not that unlike myself can achieve that in the right circumstances and with the right application of human talent, or stories of people overcoming their shortcomings and growing as persons, or examples of altruism and cooperation - you know, humans actually uplifting each other - and so on. Whether or not imaginary demons are greater or lesser than humans seems pretty irrelevant to it.

>>97145401
Is it really brainrot when people points to the canon material? The real brainrot is the humanist view.

>>97145455
You are really getting stuck on the term in a, I'm sorry, extremely autistic way. I've tried to explain how the view is to hold up your fellow man over tyrant supergods, and by doing so you reduce the cosmic lords to less than the least among mankind. But like you're really stuck on the idea that it can't be uplifting because potentially some other nonhuman entities are made less than by this elevation. Normal people dont think like that.

>>97145401
>>97145468
The real brainrot is not being able to accept that a lot of things are up to debate, with more than one and possible more than two sides having valid views. When it comes to morality and Primordials in Exalted, people should either enjoy arguing about it and accept that they're every bit as autistic as anyone else arguing about it, or stay out of those arguments and let autists entertain each other in peace.

>>97145512
>Exalted.
>Uplifting.
The canon ending of 1e is that the world will be destroyed, with the Exalted being utterly powerless to deal with the problems, with some of the worst problems being created by themselves.

>>97145526
No I don't think I will. I think they're bad, because they're pretty much all terrible things which, like I've said, earned every bit of contempt they get. There's a lot of gay bias for them here that's almost completely dismissive of what should be the main characters in the setting. The exalted, if you forgot. The guy saying a fucking nice thing about the value of one human life being more then all the creators of the universe put together, but we got this weird argument about that not being cool somehow.

>>97145512
Hey, you asked me why I don't consider that sentiment uplifting and I answered. That's all there is going on here. I don't think you quite understood my point of view, though, because
>But like you're really stuck on the idea that it can't be uplifting because potentially some other nonhuman entities are made less than by this elevation
no, what I'm saying is that considering that lessening of others in itself a part of what's uplifting about the whole thing is kind of pathetic. Holding up your fellow man is great, taking joy in pushing down others is not, and that's the case regardless of the morality of those others.

>>97145559
Wow it's a good thing that they abandoned that even in 1e because it was fucking stupid.

>>97145565
Szoreny is notorious for never doing anything bad, in fact he never did anything as monstrous as Autochthon and Gaia did.

>>97145565
>No I don't think I will.
You're almost there, though. You're already here having autistic arguments about dumb shit, and the only thing that's missing is you accepting that you're just as autistic as anyone else here.

>>97145568
They're the Yozi. They're not humans. They're literally fucking devils. It's okay to push them down. They're not disenfranchised Somalians or something.

>>97145571
>1e.
>abandoning it.
Grabowski even criticized the fanbase for not getting in the doom train.

>>97145568
It's okay to push down tyrants. I won't apologize or negotiate on that.

>>97145597
Grabowski said a lot of shit that doesn't matter.

>>97145607
Tell this to the writers that are still trying to make 1e Lunars work.

>>97145577
I don't think either of them were particularly monstrous. Weird compare, mate

>>97145615
Anyone who wants 1e Lunars is a retard.

>>97145586
You're obviously not readin what I'm saying, as I've not said a word about how Yozis should be treated. I'm saying that "you can be more" is an uplifting statement and "you're already great, even if you haven't done shit, because at least you're not that guy". Talking about a single human life being worth more than anything in Malfeas combined and considering that uplifting is kind of the latter. It has nothign to do with what to do Malfeas, or whether to do anything with Malfeas.

>>97145631
>and "you're already great, even if you haven't done shit, because at least you're not that guy"
...and that's not an uplifting statement, is obviously what I mean to say. I'd even say that it's a sentiment that lessens everyone involved, the guy being supposedly uplifted by inviting complacency and also by pretending that there's any kind of a compliment in being compared to shit.

>>97145631
It does, though. The average person isn't much. They sure as hell did not create the universe, and they know it. It's emotionally uplifting for the person to place them above that in your moral compass. By the same token, seeing everything that the Yozi are and saying they aren't shit is it cool, because it takes their power and spits on it. This tells the regular guy that his value and worth are not tied to things like power or accomplishments, but that he is worthy as he is.

>>97145648
Sorry man, weird take. Just weird. Really focused on the self improvement when I'm on the intrinsic human value angle.

>>97145652
>This tells the regular guy that his value and worth are not tied to things like power or accomplishments, but that he is worthy as he is.
if he's worthy as he is, in a manner unrelated to power and accomplishments, then why the fuck would spitting on Yozis power and accomplishments, the things that don't define one's worth and value, matter at all?

>>97145663
If you're on an intrinsic human value angle, then considering comparison to other, non-human entities meaningful is even weirder. If human value is intrinsic, then it's there regardless of whether or not other beings are greater in some way than humans.

>>97145631
Talking about this, a funny thing happened between Lunars and Chimeras/Hearteaters.
Despite Hearteaters/Chimera being created to be mocked for "all those years that they hold Lunars back", without Lunars, Chimera/Hearteaters ended up too dangerous to be canon.

>>97145672
>>97145683
It's really common in stories or even philosophies to go at it from both ends. In this case, the implication is that Yozi only have power and lack the inherent human worth and value. They are the opposite of the espoused virtues, and are disrespected for it. This is really basic storytelling stuff.

Am I witnessing an "autist failed liberal arts" moment?

>>97145703
That seems like reading a lot of stuff that isn't there into the material. Yozis lost and are disrespected because they lost, and that's pretty much all there is to it. The only implication is that Yozis weren't mighty enough to defeat the Exalted Host and their allies. Well, all that there objectively is to it, all kinds of other shit can obviously be argued about from various different angles.

>>97145723
You're witnessing what would've, at one point, been a fairly typical Exalted argument.

>>97145703
Unless the virtue is self-righteousness, everything broke away from worth and virtue.

>>97145740
I mean, they aren't human. They never were, never will be. That's as canon as it gets and the only thing that is necessary for the viewpoint to work. It doesn't hurt that they're spirit monsters in hell on top of that.

>>97145776
Sure, fair enough, assuming a wholly human-centric view on morality is fine for a character to do.

>>97145756
In this example, the Yozi existing as semi-mad beings of near infinite power that believe it is their right to impose their will on everything (which has been used as a summary for their conglomerate opinion before) kind of opposes a lot of virtues.

>>97145795
It's been said before but it's a human centered setting. The important events of history are done by the Exalted, best of humans. You can sort of argue outside the context of that setting what might be moral or not, but Exalted very much assumes that humans are the center of the universe from now on. Humans can do good or bad, but they're the main characters and what little comments on ethics and morality we get are usually related to human injustices.

>>97145829
>Humans can do good or bad, but they're the main characters and what little comments on ethics and morality we get are usually related to human injustices.
I want to add on to this anon's idea that when morality is discussed around the Primordials (living or deceased), it's usually bad and it's usually about the bad things that they do to mortals and each other. I'm willing to say that the morality of exalted is focused on doing good by mortals

>>97145829
Exalted is human-centered in a manner that has absolutely nothing to do with morality. It's a game about humans, albeit ones given great power, that's absolutely true, but that has no real implications on, well, much anything. As you say, humans can do good or bad, and so can non-humans, and what counts as good or bad doesn't have much to do with humans being the centerpiece. Or rather it might have a lot to do with it if that's what your character things, but the setting mostly doesn't take any kind of a default moral stance, not one based on human-centered morality or otherwise.

>>97145869
>things
Or *thinks, whatever

>>97145869
I don't know about that man. It can be a bit clinical with some things, but it's doesn't mince words about things like cruelty to mortals, greed, and indolence at the expense of the people you ought to be protecting. Especially when talking about the flaws of societies, the way they highlight human suffering is not unbiased, even if it doesn't say shit like "This Kingdom is Lawful Evil".

>>97145869
It's pretty judgemental to some things. Raksi, the Lintha. Hell, the Realm. It deffo has an opinion on human dignity

>>97145893
Eh, obviously writing's never unbiased, but I think that more often than making moral judgements Exalted just presents things without prettying them up. Obviously a lot of people have worked on the game and specifics like handling of morality inevitably depend a lot on the writer, but I think overall, and at the very least when it's at its best, Exalted shows Creation as it is, warts and all, and leaves making moral judgements to players.

File: Exalted Nun.jpg (113 KB, 1280x1280)

113 KB JPG

>>97135533
What do you think of the signature Infernals for 3e (also, why did they have to make new ones when Infernals have the lowest max number of Exaltations of all the canon Exalt types?), and how do they compare the the signature 2e Infernals, and which is your favorite(s)?

>>97145917
I think all the Infernal Iconics have always been cringe. Sorry, not sorry.

>>97145916
I don't really agree with the idea that Exalted is at its very best without moral judgements. It has moral judgements, like how the mad Solars were reprehensible or how the majority of the Satraps oppress and exploit the people they've conquered and these judgements are good. They add some of the most important flavor to the game, and they invite new players to get mad along with the authors at these wrongs.

>>97145981
Agree to disagree, then. Though I'll say that I don't consider showing oppression and exploitation practiced by the Realm in itself a moral statement. Obviously it invites moral judgement, and there'd be something wrong with a person who thinks that all of that is fine if the book doesn't explicitly explain him that it's wrong. I think there are a lot of instances where Exalted just shows something that's obviously - obviously to most readers - wrong but ultimately leaves that judgement for the readers to make instead of saying "this is a bad thing, by the way".

>>97145113
>>97145776

Some demons can get along better with humans than others. Stomach bottle bugs are a manageable nuisance that can be bargained with to aid in healing, angylaka are only a bit haunting in their playing music with time itself, aalu are interested in eating each other and not others, and neomah are just out to combine flesh together to make new beings.

Firmin, marottes, metody, and gallmau, though... bad news. Decanthropes are active hazards, and blood apes literally live to eat humans and cats. Not a very pleasant time being together. At least, not for the humans or cats.

>>97145607
>>97145615

Grabowski dialed Lunars back even on his initial themes. For all of that "you started them at rarr and then went backward" he wrote, he was guilty of the exact same thing. One need only look at the lack of Appearance Charms and confounding excuse given to see that.

>>97146013
It rarely says it, but by highlighting it and often expounding on its human cost, it's an obviously altruistic, human-centric sense of morality. Even if it wont judge you by prohibiting you from doing something else. Anyway, long story short: Yozi bad.

>>97146100
>Yozi bad.
I don't actually disagree with that, but I'd argue that it's a different matter whether free, unmaimed, not-that-mad Primordial bad. To be clear, I'm not arguing that Primordials were innocent victims of nefarious usurpers or anything like that, but I think that the fact that there were races willing to fight for them implies that they weren't pure evil.

>>97146093
>Appearance charms.
I have a few theories.
A) Grabowski wasn't capable of disassociate "Appearance = prettiness = socialite = civilization".
B) Appearance is where illusion charms where, and they couldn't think of anything to replace them with.
C) Contrary of Manipulation, the devs couldn't think of ways to turn it in a non-social stat.

>>97145917
The worst thing I can say about them is that they’re utterly forgettable. I would rather take five bondage nuns than five vaguely ancient world-themed Fortnite skins.

Hey uh, is nobody talking about the fact that 3e seems to have given Isidoros the whole “The 1Ebon Dragon knows he is trapped forever but it is in his nature to test the limits of that cage” shtick? Seems kind of on the nose compared to how the current Ebon Dragon is more similar to his 2e form.

>>97146265
Sure, I did notice that, and it irked me a bit. I'd really prefer it if Ebon Dragon was less about antagonism and more about desperately trying to break out, while still being a freaky, creepy, doom-loving thing.

>>97146220
The Alaun seemed to be incredibly slavish, having been noted for only really wanting to sing praises and curry favor. The Lintha, while less overt slaves, are still deeply bound to their master and dependent on that favor. The implication I get from a lot of the Primordial Other Races is that they didn't really have the independence to say no, rather than them having genuine affinity.

>>97146347
The only non-human races who sided with rebels did so due to ties to that side, too, Dragon Kings being devoted to the Unconquered Sun and Jadeborn to Autochthon. My impression is that races of Creation weren't overwhelmingly in favor of the rebels over the Primordials. I don't think Alaun worshiping Primordials is inherently any more slavish or anything like that than DKs worshiping the Sun. Both sides in that war had their dudes, and assuming any kind of moral superiority for either side seems kind of pointless, both because there's no real evidence of such, because there's not enough information on that age for there to be such evidence, and of course because it doesn't really matter much to Creation's current day one way or another. Yozi are bad now because they lost, were imprisoned and are mad as fuck about it.

>>97146394
If we're going that route, the only race that had a choice of whether or not to fight WAS humanity. Now, what little we know about mankind in those days was that shit super sucked. I would argue that it was moral of the first Exalted to agree to challenge the world order for the future of their species. It's always been framed as such (and also because you couldn't really compel the Exalted that way)

File: 1764899573848101.jpg (133 KB, 773x924)

133 KB JPG

>>97145917
>What do you think of the signature Infernals for 3e
Post their lore otherwise I'm going to assume they're all similar to this dude considering how hard the devs initially tried to push Infernals as being the SJW exalted.

>>97143232
Absolutely, completely disagree. I was under the impression the initial preview-the one at the start of 3e-had been completely abandoned in favour of SJW Penumbras. I am ecstatic THAT sort of revolution shit is what has been dumped with the Infernal "humanism", and that the Infernals are in fact channeling more Yozi powers than ever not less.

>>97146394
There's also the humans who don't fit cleanly into the First Age's narrative. The Lintha aside, there's the Genesis Lords of Heartwind who (assuming their lore is more or less intact) were a civilisation of humans favoured by Gaia for warning her about some kind of fae scheme and received bioengineering magitech so powerful the Solars murdered them in a fit of jealously for it long before the Great Curse really set in.

>>97146296
Cool, cool. I'm just surprised that hasn't been a bigger deal here. Personally I'm ambivalent about it, I came into the game with 2ebby and I've always thought folks exaggerate just how different 1ebby is but I don't mind a more abstract take either. I just find it funny in a roundabout way they've manage to preserve the idea of Isidoros being "the cool Yozi" prevalent in the fandom while still making him formidable and alien.

>>97146479
The Genesis Lords feel like something that was thrown in on a whim because their shit is mad stupid and incongruent.

>>97146471
The snippets of lore I've seen still isn't demonic enough for me.

File: ED.png (36 KB, 1303x186)

36 KB PNG

>>97146265
>>97146296
>>97146493
On Ebby.

File: reilly-lohr-2.jpg (163 KB, 800x1277)

163 KB JPG

>>97146252
>five vaguely ancient world-themed Fortnite skins.
Fortnite skins can look better than that.

>>97146507
Like many things in the setting, they are probably from a random book that the writers thought was cool.

>>97146535
I feel like whoever wrote this did it with an erection. Why are Yozifags like this?

>>97146471
They're about the same in Essence as they are in 3e. I think that 3e has more room for playing with permanent transformations as Essence doesn't bother with mutations, but the focus on vengeance and hatred was a core part of their charms in Essence.

>>97146547
Dunno and not that guy, but I ain't apologising when this is the game with the furry fandom backing Lunars and Realmfags unironically claiming the Realm has never done anything wrong in the Discord.

>>97146524
Fair enough. Each to their own, my expectations were set so low I was expecting much worse.

>>97146507
I think they're fun, which after all this time is all I hope for Exalted to be. When you get right down to it the entire game is mad stupid and incongruent. Like despite divorcing itself from oWoD's prehistory officially the fucking writers STILL constantly throw in inane references to it in every edition because...reasons.

>>97146562
>I think that 3e has more room for playing with permanent transformations as Essence doesn't bother with mutations
While technically correct the sheer gulf in scope makes that comparison complete bullshit, Devil-Bodies in Essence are comically weak.

>>97146595
>and Realmfags unironically claiming the Realm has never done anything wrong in the Discord.
Do they? The forum ones just want to nuke the rest of the setting.

File: Penumbras.png (129 KB, 595x570)

129 KB PNG

>>97146562
Also I cannot stress enough how GLAD I am what's been shown of 3e's drafts have shed the stupid, stupid contrived >muh revolution shit pushed in Essence and Crucible. You can claim Penumbras are fundamentally the same all you want, but there is a massive gulf in execution and emphasis between what originally made me completely lose faith in the writers.

>>97146595
Eh, I'm not against fun, but I am against out of place inclusions like that. There's absolutely no good reason to have them when everything they are is just done by Solars

>>97146620
Bro this feels basically the same overall

>>97146620
That's what the Penumbras are in 3e.

>>97146547
If you're not writing Exalted content with an erection you're not writing Exalted content right.

>>97146636
>Bro this feels basically the same overall
Nah original essence forced you to be a SJW exalted while now the devs just heavily encourage it while admitting you can also be a selfish greedy slave owning asshole committing warcrimes who doesn't give a shit about oppression.

>>97146701
Brother that is like saying diet coke and coke zero aren't the same ass fucking drink

>>97146712
>die coke and coke zero
Nigger that is literally the perfect analogy for why I'm right. The product can be fundamentally the same but have different emphasis and superior execution. Which is the case here.

Critiques of Essence ? where does it work and where it doesn't ?

>>97146731
Nigga they're literally the same. People confuse them in blind taste tests all the time and this fluff may as well just be a red label vs a silver one. Shit is the same.

>>97146731
Sorry, but they're the same drink and these exalts are still shitcringe

>>97146766
you sense of taste is dead if you think diet coke and coke zero are the same

>>97146838
They're so similar I regularly just pour one for the other and nobody notices. Similarly, these Infernals still post on bluesky even if they aren't wearing pride shirts

Get a fucking room already.

>>97146620
Is this the new ones? They are still "checked their own privileges" but reworded slightly different, and they are still about social justice revolution

>>97147081
>Is this the new ones?
No they're from the 1st draft of Essence

>>97143057
Sounds like the average Exalted munchkin

>>97147816
I am pretty sure that you can do it in 3e thanks for lore supernal

>>97147821
>Twilights also have crafting cheese
Damn twilights breaking the game again

>>97145172
Thank you. I really appreciate you posting these

>>97146701
How did Essence "force" you to be a SJW exalt?
>B-b-b-but you just KNOW someone will call you problematic if you don't play the shittiest parody of a lefty possible!

>>97148050
Essence Infernals outright gain exp for fighting against evil.

>>97147821
>I am pretty sure that you can do it in 3e thanks for lore supernal
Only if the Storyteller lets you target yourself with Flowing Mind Prana. Usually everybody else in the circle will have a billion charms, while the Lore Supernal plays around with the ability to give temporarily give themselves charms they have the prerequisites for via Power-Awarding Prana to solve their problems, but otherwise actually has less experience available than everybody else since they're dumping all they can get away with into Flowing Mind Prana.

The real way to play a character with 150 charms is to go Craft Supernal for a bunch of craft point generation and Spirit-Stoking Elevation. Spirit-Stoking Elevation converts white points 5:1 into xp, you commit the xp into Flowing Mind Prana to essentially wash your money, and when it uncommits from Flowing Mind Prana at the end of the story you can spend it on whatever you want. This charm line also takes you past Exegesis of the Distilled Form, which lets you once per story get an injection of immediate xp by rolling you white points and getting that much xp, up to 20.

>>97148050
>How did Essence "force" you to be a SJW exalt?
In Essence if you play an Infernal you're supposed to have been chosen from among SJWs, and the storyline you're supposed to follow is fighting for minorities against oppression and overthrowing unjust tyrannies and hierarchies. If that sounds like it doesn't make any fucking sense or fit with the patrons involved at all then you might understand why people have complaints.

>>97148098
>Is it really that easy to get white points? I thought they were the hardest to obtain and needed chains of projects to acquire.

>>97148263
>>Is it really that easy to get white points? I thought they were the hardest to obtain and needed chains of projects to acquire.
The main limit is the pace of the game and availability of resources. You should definitely take Resources 4-5 if you want to play a serious crafter to solve the latter problem. You don't need to complete chains of projects to get them, you just need to complete superior projects. Superior projects take gold points, but they also pay out gold points, and they pay out more gold points the faster you completed the task. They break even so that you can just keep going with artifact projects fairly easily. At the very start of the game if you didn't take any of the Craft dicetricks (and if your build is Spirit-Stoking Elevation, Flowing Mind Prana, Thousand Forge Hands, that's fifteen charms with no dicetricks) you might not be breaking even yet, but you've got five major project slots and a superior project slot at rest from the charm line that took you to Spirit-Stoking Elevation, so you can shore up your gold points with major projects if you really have to.

>>97148263
To go a little more in-depth, the charms on the way are the ones that let you craft a lot of projects at once. Clay and Breath Practice makes every roll on an artifact-crafting project pay out silver points, and Efficient Craftsman Technique converts silver points into more craft slots, and Copper Spider Concentration lowers the number of craft slots you need to combine to work on artifacts, and you just have a bunch of slots given to you by some of the charms. Finishing artifacts pays out the gold points you need to build more artifacts, and all of that is before you even consider Unwinding Gyre Meditation, which makes every consecutive project of the same artifact rating easier and pay out more gold points.

The dicetrick/Power side of the Craft tree is probably more busted in terms of artifact creation unless you're crafting exclusively 2/3 dot artifacts, but this Efficiency/slots side lets you do way too many things at once and pays out at the end by converting all of the things you did into large sums of extra experience points. It probably takes a story or three before it actually breaks even between the amount of xp you're generating and the amount you invested into the Craft charms to get there, but in that time you're also pumping out Artifact 2-4s and juicing your crew's ability/attributes to silly numbers, and that's also the point where the xp you're generating goes exponentially out of control.

>>97148094
>>97148098
I know this isn't a valid answer for the discourse, but, if your ST replaces that with acts of villainy or something like that, there anything mechanically wrong with them?

I'm starting an Essence game in a week or two and playing an Infernal, is why I ask.

>>97148568
>I know this isn't a valid answer for the discourse, but, if your ST replaces that with acts of villainy or something like that, there anything mechanically wrong with them?
Not anymore. They're a bit more human/normal-ish than 2e Infernal charms were which gets people up in arms a bit, and they're just in general not very similar to either version of 2e Infernals. They had a bit of an overreliance on inflicting penalties as well, which is still somewhat around but less bad now. Keep in mind that you'll probably have a lot of options to do that which look strong in your charms, but that penalty negation does exist, and at least in combat it is very very cheap - Excellent Strike is something everybody uses whether or not you're doing penalties, and if you run into a Solar trying to Shadow Spite Curse them is going to actively screw you.

>>97148511
Sounds like I want to play EMIYA then. Or Tenkou Kishou.

Anyone got the new Infernal codes for sorcery?

>>97146455
There 100% will be DEI and SJW.
In teaser chapters on bacer site we get isight into some infernals characters.
One is Tya. Who now is a male after Exaltation.

>>97149786
That sounds fine. Clumsy virtue signaling done to pander to a specific audience as cheaply and with as little effort as possible with no regard to a setting's tone or internal consistency is a problem. SJW stuff that fits the setting is not. A specific Tya wanting to be a man sounds reasonable, even if it's not what most Tya are about, and so does Infernal Exaltation causing changes like that.

>>97149820
It is 3e, they always have a token nonbinary character, nu-nu-devs missed the memo with the chosen of masks.

if you're playing a solar and you're not buying all the teaching charms you are literally trolling

>>97150222
3e the teaching charms get actively worse the more people take them, since you can't both learn and teach with Flowing Mind Prana at the same time. 2e Tiger Warrior Training Technique's not any more effective with two people using it. 1e teaching charms rarely apply to other Exalted.

Okay, but let's be serious for once and tackle the important questions. Which canon character has the cutest feet?

>>97150846
I'm gonna disqualify all the Incarna and Primordials because it's cheating and some homo will say Unconquered Sun.

>>97150846
Unfortunately, when exalted writers copied Tanith Lee, they did it in a very swallow way, the nuances of barefoot fetish was lost to them.

>>97150971
I don't think we have calves down pics of him.

I mean I'm in a 2e infernals game right now and whilst we aren't very far in, the fact none of us really want to release mad demon gods to rampage across the world killing everyone, yet we all have demon allies and/or demons we have some empathy for is causing an interesting dilemma.

My character's martial arts instructor is a second circle of adorjan, her blacksmith is another second circle of adorjan the first recommended her to. She has the Adorjan excellency. She has good relations to several third circle species descended from Adorjan. At her free townhouse in Malfeas her butler is a little penguin guy. Granted, a demonic penguin scavenger descended from an all-eroding glacier, who turns interesting things (including humans) into ice sculptures to be used as raw materials to forge artifacts by his progenitor...

She simultaneously knows how dangerous Adorjan is and how she thinks, and that the first age exalted throwing the Primordials into prison to rot in a lobotomised state was simultaneously cruel and their safest option. She's going to have to betray the reclamation sooner or later, but can she just ignore the realm of Malfeas when trying to fix the world as any high essence exalt would? Is it even possible to improve conditions in there? What would that even look like?

>>97150846
Faka-Kun. I think she's primarily walking around barefoot.

>>97151228
Just leave them to rot? 99% percent of why it sucks in there is proximity to the Yozi

File: G7p7oVCXcAAR2wl.jpg (541 KB, 2000x1288)

541 KB JPG

How do you fix the Lunar's castes?

>>97151604
The solution seems to be social distancing

>>97151772
Excise the breaking of the Castes because it's an inane plot point. Get rid of casteless for the same reason. There's always been three. Maybe break the mold and give each an extra Caste ability to shore up playstyle limitations.

>>97151881
Just get rid of the Castes instead and give Lunars a bunch of Anima abilities to choose from, with customizing them also being an option.

>>97151772
First you have to fix Lunars conceptually. The only thing everybody can agree on is they should be able to take animal shapes but that's like saying Solars should be able to throw holy bolts and trying to make a whole splat on that.

>>97151943
Honestly I wouldn't Lunars stealing the Anima Twinning gimmick from ExWoD's Heart-Eaters. Now that would be an actual fun addition to their shapeshifting theme.

>>97151604
Even if sins of the Jouten transfer to the entire pantheon of subsouls, demons are weird people - do they deserve to live in the environmental hazard that is hell in perpetuity?

Plus if the campaign actually does go devil tiger our group would be Neoprimordials and thus have a stronger sense of "community" with them and thus potentially feel like

"Shit, can we give them therapy?"

File: Exigent Booba.png (2.41 MB, 1359x877)

2.41 MB PNG

Where is it said in 3e that charms of a specific ability can only be used on rolls using that ability? I know it is said, but I just can't find it.

>>97153520
>Shit, can we give them therapy?
The problem is only the Solars are good at therapy and throughout Creation's history, Solars would consistently rather solve their problems by suplexing them, subjugating them with oaths of ontological subjugation, burning them away in blazes of power, building giant war machines and generally by using the limitless power of creation like a sharp rock instead of by actually using their therapy Charms.

Now that the dust has settled on Infernal Melee, is it fair to say that it's overall weaker than Solar/Abyssal in terms of Initiative/attack efficiency if you can deal with disease/environmental damage effects, and overall stronger if you can't? Especially since they have decent access to Agg damage.

>>97153499
shapeshifting is a bit of a weak theme all things considered. you can fluff a lot of abilities as being based on it, but it really is like if you wanted to design solars as being the blazing solar bolt exalt.
>>97154473
why would you use therapy on your enemies?

>>97154485
It'll be good for slaughtering Not-Exalts. Solars are still probably the most effective at fighting other Exalted overall.

>>97154468
What is wrong with their everything?

>>97154506
As they should be. Solars are the best in a white room, other exalts can be the best in certain circumstances or relying on other factors

>>97154506
Yeah, not much of a mechanics guy but that was my takeaway as well. I keep coming back to Gajam-un as the biggest statted problem in 3e that can't be dealt with using dice tricks as easily as "the floor is now lava" type effects and looking at both Melee and Lore I was pretty chuffed at how effective the Green Sun AIDS spam seems to be.

Comparing Infernal and Abyssal Melee against each other specifically, it occurs to me Infernals don't have much for REDUCING wound penalties (which seem to be necessary to proc the better Abyssal Melee effects) but they suffer much less from them than most so I could see that being an interesting matchup in terms of what specific attack Charms being in play seeming more important. Whereas with Solars it's just, Holy go brrr, Rampage Berserk Attack and Ascendant Battle Visage go brrrrrrrr.

>>97154506
*Melee and Brawl I mean, specifically the Metagaos-based supernatural disease Charms. Really in 3e's overall environment I like Infernal Charm design is still thinking laterally, you may lose the swordfight against a peer despite going down swinging but if they don't have good healing they might not live longer than you. And you're VERY good at disengaging/conceivably performing disengage-based gambits.

I don't understand bashing damage, how the fuck is smashing someone in the face with a goremaul (artifact sledgehammer) non-lethal?

>>97154545
Yeah, Abyssals and Infernals are having this game where they're looking to inflict certain effects to trigger their best damage and advantage. The Solar won the fight by showing up and being Goku. They're different philosophies.

On that subject, how are we feeling about Infernal Brawl? Retribution Will Follow and it's keys, to be specific. No complaints about the Metagaos stuff but I'm torn between thinking it's underwhelming and that it's a nice little initiative farm with enough upgrades. Likewise One Hand Fury seems kinda crap in a vacuum as something that could be substituted by literally an artifact purchase, but also does big numbers taken with the charmset as a whole. I do like Infernal Brawl specialises in pushing people away in terms of rangebands while Solar Brawl can suck people back towards the Solar, and that it's equipped to wrassle multiple opponents

>>97154560
They grow them boys REAL thick in Creation, please understand. No seriously, it's wuxia logic.

>>97154519
AI art, see their wrists, the hands were edited

>>97154487
It is arguably worse, since heavenly fire is a very broad theme, specially once you get the mythological firmament

>>97154654
Potentially. The weak core theme and lack of vision is the heart of their problems.

>>97154560
In pre-Power Combat 1e, all weapons, even clubs, did lethal. For reasons of poor game term choices (a WW classic if there ever was one, just look at Past Life from pre-Revised W:tA), someone took "bashing" too literally and ignored how people get horrible, bone-ruining injuries from blunt weapons without being knocked out into a stupor first. And so they made sledge damage bashing in power combat. Then shit rolled downhill, and kept rolling through 2e and on into 3e.

>>97151772
>How do you fix the Lunar's castes?
I really wish people would give their own fucking opinions when asking shit like this first. People on this site love doing that for cheap engagement.

>>97154711
They have a vision for Lunars, but it doesn't include mythological or folkloric shapeshifters.

>>97154804
Is their vision John Cena?

>>97154825
It seems to be barbaric soak beasts, the definition of "barbarian" changes with the edition, but currently they are going with "culture heroes of the people the Realm deems as backwards savages".

>>97154473
>only the Solars are good at therapy
Everybody's able to be good at doing therapy. In Exalted, therapy is mind control and social influence applied 'for their own good'. Most everybody looks at therapy and sees brainwashing, because that's basically what it is. That's a large part of why the only people who're trying it are Gold Faction Sidereals in the Age of Sorrows on Solars, because therapy in a world with clear social excellence looks exactly like brainwashing. What the gold stars are doing is making a cult (of the Illuminated), but as in cult indoctrination rather than in the manner of an Exalted cult where it's mostly a for-benefits prayer arrangement.

>>97154468
>Where is it said in 3e that charms of a specific ability can only be used on rolls using that ability? I know it is said, but I just can't find it.
Core pg252/253 under the Supplemental/Reflexive sections.
>Supplemental Charms can generally only benefit rolls using the Ability they’re listed under, unless otherwise stated.
>Reflexive Charms which enhance static values may generally only enhance static values deriving from their governing Ability, unless otherwise indicated.

File: Cheesecake.jpg (97 KB, 1280x720)

97 KB JPG

>>97154926
>Core pg252/253 under the Supplemental/Reflexive sections.
Thanks

>>97154560
>I don't understand bashing damage, how the fuck is smashing someone in the face with a goremaul (artifact sledgehammer) non-lethal?
Bashing incapacitation knocks a mortal out for days. Any amount of bashing damage that overflows into lethal damage leaves them bleeding and against mortals that means they take another lethal health level every minute until they're dead. If you're the kind of Storyteller who wants to invoke every rule available to screw people over for the purposes of verisimilitude it's actually somewhat worse to take damage that way because bashing overflow creates internal bleeding, and internal surgery has +3 difficulty on treatment rolls, and stabilizing someone who's taken overkill from bashing is usually their highest wounded health level (+3 for internal surgery) for Difficulty 8, rather than the stabilization for someone who was incapped with direct lethal damage from a sword which'd only be Difficulty 5. Most people forget about the difficulty hike on internal operations though.

>>97154618
>see their wrists
Hannah-Barbera tier.

File: 6bf5c1e6dd642871264d21197(...).png (244 KB, 457x820)

244 KB PNG

>>97154956
>its harder to save someone smashed with a hammer than stabbed with a sword
Makes a Malfean sort of sense

File: 1763858639353482.jpg (5 KB, 230x219)

5 KB JPG

>>97154725
Its a consequence of social narcissism, really. Phrasing something like:
>How do we fix swords?
lets you assume you're right, hides your true thoughts on the matter, and makes people sound defensive when they say, "Fuck you, nothing is wrong with swords."
Phrasing it like
>How do we fix swords? They keep bouncing off plate armor and I'm so sick of it.
provides something that people can actually make fun of you for, and for the emotionally feeble people on 4chan, this is not acceptable.

>>97154856
Unironically Barbarian is a much more flexible and usable archetype than that entire culture hero sentence. If anything, Solars are culture heroes already

>>97154825
>Is their vision John Cena?
Why John Cena?

>>97155028
Considering the pic, that anon was just looking for an excuse to post goon art.

>>97154956
Don't forget that before 3e standardized damage across the board, bashing damage weapons dealt absolutely retarded amounts of damage. If you played 2e you learned to FEAR the guy wielding the grand goremaul.

>>97155066
1e Solars were the historical barbarian, the Howardian barbarian and the culture heroes.
While Lunars were the degenerate barbarians that Conan killed by the dozens.
In fact, the albino cannibals are based on the antagonists of one of his stories.

>>97155070
Because you cant see him

>>97154468
dear god what made this. please tell me this isn't in some book.

>>97155694
It is from the main Exigent's book.

>>97154804
Good. Shapeshifting has been a stupid dead end for years

>>97155721
It was the other way around, a dev did a long post about how "despite mystical illusionary fox spirits screaming Lunar material, they shouldn't be used as a basis for Lunar material".

>>97155708
what the fuck. they look like weird tangled up people floating on air. It just looks so off.

>>97155743
A dev making a stupid statement, in fact, reinforces my point. There's so much more to magical illusory fox spirits than "shapeshifting" that removing that word from your vocabulary is a good start. The devs are just retarded

>>97155761
It is likely AI, the cover of Abyssals is likely too.

>>97155721
>>97155743
Both things are true. Shapeshifting is too narrow a thematic focus and the developers are bad at their jobs.

>>97155777
Oh wow, it's even more obvious with that one. Damn. The arms and weird proportions seem pretty damning. Maybe I'm just imagining things but damn...

>>97155827
I don't think it is you, if you look closely, the masked Abyssal body is made of 3 different parts, and there are some weird details in the borders of his cape.

>>97155838
Look at the picture on page 24 as well. That's the only other one that comes across as AI to me. The stool in the top right, the way the person is being stabbed...

>>97155874
As much as i'd love another way dunk on the 3E books, it's not A.I.

No way to prove it of course, but if you look close at the way the light hits different people's skin, and clothes, and the way the light and shadow is on the ceiling, you can tell it's all being done with the same brush tools. A.I., especially back then, loves to change minor artistic quirks at random.

The art is merely shitty, not artificially generated.

>>97155908
No, it's touched up by people but it's definitely ai generated. This art style is bad. Rich is just that greedy.

>>97155766
God I wish Lunars would just commit to being Kitsune Exalts and dump shapeshitter. Imagine illusions for days, ghost flame, power over the harvest and fertility, hypnosis, blessings and curses (the killing stone), and divine messengers that can appear in dreams. Instead we get culture hero dumbass shit, and people who homebrew are stuck on making them beast boy or mr fantastic

File: __luan_niangzi_thunderbol(...).jpg (239 KB, 992x1403)

239 KB JPG

>>97156010
I like my dumbass peafowl Black Claw stylist social Lunar based on Luan Niangzi from Thunderbolt Fantasy

>>97156111
I fail to see the incompatibility with my suggested vision

If we're entirely honest as a community step 1 of fixing lunars is rounding up everyone boring enough to dislike shapeshifting and throw them into a volcano.

>>97156196
It's the opposite. I don't even dislike the idea of being able to take different forms, but I'm not so blind to see that it hasn't taken up virtually all the mental space around the Exalt.
>>97156010
This is a portfolio as broad as any other Exalt and it would still include being able to change your appearance. That is so much better than being the animorph exalt

>>97155090
The albino cannibals descended from a servant race of First Age Solars? What do they have to do with Lunars?

>>97156196
I don't understand. Kitsune Exalted sounds on the surface like it would be really restrictive but like it was pointed out, they are associated with so many different things that it really wouldn't be a bad idea to just have Lunars use that alone as their inspiration. If you wanted a different spirit animal you could probably do that, but you could also just play somebody who never touches any of that and still be uniquely Lunar.

>>97156227
Yes, they had a more Lunar-player facing write up in 1e!Lunars.

>>97156282
You could also take inspiration from the other Asian animal shapeshifters, Lunars already do the nekomata modus operandi.
The problem is that the devs don't see AAS as Lunar's material.

>>97156010
I understand people being unsatisfied with Lunars, but people wanting to drop what they're about and replace it with something they've never, ever been about is pretty wild. No, anon shapeshifting should definitely be there, even if there should also be more to them. I think that shapeshifting combined with the predatory angle implied by the sacred hunt are a solid core for both the themes and mechanics of the splat, it's just that more should be done with all that. Kitsune-inspired beings in Creation are fine but what you're describing is not a Lunar, nor what Lunars should be.

>>97156311
That's just fucking Garou

>>97156303
Nekomata basically just turn into kitsune as they age, gaining virtually all the same abilities, only lacking the divine associations which give them power over things like harvest. I feel like current lunars are really bad at that

>>97156303
>Yes, they had a more Lunar-player facing write up in 1e!Lunars.
Sure. Regardless, they were a Solar slave race, the point being that Solars aren't so much Conan-style pure, hardened barbarians as the decadent god-kings of old returning. Also the righteous kings of old returning, but, like, thematically Solars are very much associated with the higher, more complex, more advanced civilization of the past.

>>97156326
Nah, though I think Werewolf's a game with a lot going on for it and rejecting any and all W:tA influences for Lunars is not the way to go. Regardless, there's more to both shapeshifting and predation than werewolves.

>>97156311
Lunars as werewolves will never work because of a single issue, Solars exists.
For all that 1e!Lunars talked about the strength of the barbarian vs the "weak meek city-borns", it is the civilization building Solars who are the the strongest among all of humanity.

>>97156311
Those are the worst parts of the Exalt. The werewolf influences are, and always happening, the worst part.

>>97156339
I meant the "eat a person to take their forms".

>>97156376
They also don't have to do that. Those are specifically the evil monster kind that do it because they want to eat you. The regular cats that awaken to being magical for living so long can just magically disguise themselves as kitsune do.

>>97156282
If you want to do something completely different from Lunars, why call it a Lunar, anon? You're describing a new Exalt type. Just say that you'd want to add a new kind of Exalt and go from there, don't pretend you're fixing Lunars.

>>97156390
The fix for lunars is to be something new. We've always known this

>>97156341
Both Yurgen and Demetheus are based on Conan, and ironically enough, Yurgen existence made the ice walkers break away from their lunar imposed stagnant traditions.
Which make Lunars come even more as Howardian villains.

>>97156396
Nah, we have always disagreed on what Lunars should be, and there has never been a consensus that attempts at handling them in different editions are bad conceptually rather than in terms of execution. Personally, I'd be happy with how they are in 3E if there shapeshifting was broader and if there was either less focus on the conflict with the Realm or more focus on Lunars actually achieving some kind of success in that conflict. I don't think they need much more fixing than that. I do think that limited shapeshifting and over-focus on rage and revenge are big flaws they have. Still, despite my issues with the 3E take on Lunars, every time this thread talks about fixing Lunars I'm reminded that things could be a lot worse and that there are a lot dumber shits with worse opinions on Exlted than the current devs around.

>>97156368
This.

>>97156417
Brother adding more to shapeshifting is not going to fix it. As it has been repeatedly stated, the core of the issue is a lack of vision and a lack of a meaningful portfolio of diverse but related themes to draw on.

>>97156354
>rejecting any and all W:tA influences for Lunars is not the way to go
It's the chemo for the cancer that is shitty garou exalts.

>>97156434
Things do not become true through repetition, brother. Both 1E and 2E had a clear vision for Lunars - neither "barbarian and proud" nor Thousand Streams river are unclear or incoherent. Neither's a terribly good vision, in my opinion, but lack of vision was not the problem with either of those editions. 3E's more lacking in vision, but that's largely due to the baggage of the two previous editions and a couple of decades of heated fan discussion - as with a lot of things in 3E, the edition's scared of committing to something and doing something really bold, and ends up half-assing it with sort of bland Lunars who are kind of barbarians but kind of not and all about their war with the Realm but not really and also they're not allowed to achieve anything in that war. Still, whenever I've introduced people to Lunars, they've never had any difficulty grasping what these shape-shifting, people-eating, half-monstrous, half-heroic dudes are supposed to be about. The problem's never been players not finding plenty to like in that concept, either, but the complaints I've heard actual players make about Lunars have overwhelmingly been about execution.

>>97156401
>Lunar-imposed... traditions

Only in 2e. In any other edition, people came by their traditions solely on the basis of what they encountered and it's definitely an independent cultural genesis, instead of a Silver Sidereal plan to engineer cultures to... do something, we're not entirely sure what.

>>97156478
The root of the execution issues is their half baked identity. It's the WtA influence that drags them down and makes all their stuff garbage because Solars are already all the non furry things but better. It's a sacred cow that needs killing

>>97156478
You're way off base. Why are you talking about the thousand stream river when this is about power portfolios and a more flavorful charmset?

>>97156498
1e!Lunars were seething that the ice walkers were breaking away from their traditions.

>>97156311
>predatory angle implied by the sacred hunt
Solars are the apex predators and best hunters. You know what they aren't? A magical divine fox

>>97156504
Shapeshifting's an extremely versatile power, especially as long as it's not limited animals, and I'll repeat that there's more that can be done with the predator angle than what's currently being done. For instance, I'd shamelessly take Charm share away from Eclipses and give it to Lunars as something they can do through the sacred hunt - it'd be a better thematic fit for Lunar's supposed versatility than Solar's excellence, and there'd be a natural progression from Lunars stealing their prey's shape to stealing their powers, as well. I'd also expand on that to give Lunars a more specificx toolset for dealing with and traveling to other Realms, meaning the Wyld, Underworld and Malfeas alike, than Solars, because those are all - or should be - Lunar hunting grounds. There's enough there to build a splat on. If you don't like it, that's fine, but I do, and there's absolutely no reason for kitsune Exalts or illusion Exalts or any other proposed Exalted type that's offered as a new take on Lunars but that's actually completely different from Lunars should be preferred over just actually, you know, executing Lunars well. Kitsune Exalt can then be an Exigent, or some setting-bloating nu-Exalt, if something like that is desired.

>>97156512
2E Knacks were plenty flavorful, too, and a whole lot of people have complained about 3E not having the same kind of shapeshifting as 2E did, so I'm evidently not alone in thinking this. Now Lunar Charms were boring as fuck, but Knacks were great, and the conclusion to be drawn from powers specifically related to shapeshifting being the best and most interesting part of 2E Lunars definitely isn't that shapeshifting is boring and should be less central.

>>97156546
See this right here, this is why the game continues to suck. You are literally suggesting stapling other people's abilities onto them instead of just starting from scratch and making them worthwhile.
>>97156560
Also Knacks sucked. Shapeshifting in general sucks, I do not know why you are so married to it conceptually

>>97155743
[citation needed]

>wow, the devs are so lame for not using kitsune as inspiration
>ok let's do that then, they're a good replacement
>whoa dude, you can't go using actual kitsune as inspiration. too much not shapeshifting
This will be the 1100th conversation we've had on this and it's not getting better.

>>97156517
And they weren't the ones behind them or imposing them; that was entirely the Icewalkers' deal with the avatars of various animals.

>>97156504
>>97156546

"Breadth" is unnecessary. If you have access to the arbitrary dials, you're not really ruling all that much out even if you do rely on animal shapeshifting.

(If something like Fire Force can explain away FTL and time dilation from control over heat and flames, there's an even higher ceiling for the concept of animal shapeshifting than anyone can see.)

>>97156584
Personally, I think shapeshifting as a facet it is fine. When it's their entire charmset it's a major problem.

>>97156601
Why is it only Lunars have to force everything though just one expression? Solars don't. DBs don't. Siddies don't.
>>97156611
Speaking as the guy who made the original suggestion, the ability to change forms was always going to be a part of it, because that's something they can do. It's just one of their many different powers.

>>97156587
Part 1
>Lea:
>Speaking personally, I mostly just wanted to be able to e.g. make a dilapidated mansion appear whole and luxurious, because of that one thing the fox-shifter did in Sandman: The Dream Hunters1. Not so much phantasmal force or silent image as being able to cast seemings on things to make other people perceive them as other things. So, gold coins that are actually leaves, regal garments that are actually peasant rags, etc. EDIT: Possibly a beautiful carriage that’s actually a pumpkin.

>I don’t really want it anymore, though, because it’s closely associated with a method of shapeshifting where e.g. once you notice that the beautiful woman has a fox-tail poking out from under her dress, you look at her face and realize she has actually been a fox in a dress the whole time, OMG, and that’s not really how Lunar shapeshifting should work. Tying Lunar shapeshifting to the physical but then giving them a bunch of powers that make the most sense given a much more trickery-and-illusion shapeshifting paradigm leads to incoherence.

>>97156624
Part 2

>1. Sandman: The Dream Hunters is a standalone original pastiche of Japanese fairy tales by Neil Gaiman, in which the character of the Sandman only appears tangentally; it is mostly about a monk. He goes to a remote temple where he’s pestered by a shapechanging fox and badger, but the fox falls in love with him, and then later it turns out he was sent there by a court magician who had forseen his own doom and was using ritual magic to inflict it on the monk instead. There’s a bit after the monk dies and the fox takes revenge where she makes the magician fall in love with her, and then gets him burn all his belongings and follow her to a remote country estate, where he compliments her on the decor and fine food and she goes “Yes, and to think, if I hadn’t been here, you might have had to sleep in a dilapidated old mansion and dined on mice and spiders!” My very first thought when reading the 1e Lunar description was “Awesome; I’mma make a Lunar character who can do that.” And then of course it turned out Lunars can’t do that

>>97156624
>>97156629
Not finding him in either Lunars or Many-Faced Strangers, so its a bit like asking Holden what his influences were when writing Exalted 1e core.

>>97156629
Part 3.


John:
>This sounds amazingly cool, but how do you do it without messing with the Loom of Fate and without casting phantasmal force? Evaluate it separately from what you’ve been told about Lunars and just from the standpoint of what you know about Essence.

Lea:
>Maybe “Under the light of a waning moon, the eyes play tricks — a gnarled branch may seem as a grasping claw, or a [insert other example of thing looking like other thing in dim light here that isn’t something lame like a coat on a rack looking like a stranger in the hallway]. A Lunar may give one thing the appearance of another.”

John:
>This is still the action of a phantasm, by shifting moonlight or Lunar Essence. I’m not trying to be a bickerer here, and I’m certainly not saying that phantasmal powers are bad.

Lea:
>There’s really no way to get away from ephemeral phantasms here, because the alternative — literally shaping things into other things — is if anything even lamer. I never liked Lunar Charms that let them take one thing and make it pliable so they can turn it into another thing, so that leaves us with persistent holograms or some sort of mind-whammy effect. (And anyway it’d be dumb to do the my-mansion-is-actually-a-hovel trick with a literal stuff-is-pliable-like-clay Charm.)

>I think it can be madeacceptableby putting in a bit of text in the Charm about moonlight, but I don’t write Charm sets!

>That said, when people lament Lunars losing illusion powers, I think they are mostly lamenting the loss of powers like that depicted inSandman: The Dream Hunters, and they don’t have an answer for how those powers can be well-portrayed because, d00d, they want to pay us game designers to answer that question! That’s why they buy books!

>>97156641
Part 4.

Lea:
>Yeah, I don’t have a solution. If one is sufficiently attached to that sort of trickery-and-illusion motiff and the idea that it should apply to Lunars, the obvious solution is to proclaim that obviously, Lunar magic should not just be about physical shapeshifting, but about all sorts of things that relate to it — physical shapeshifting but also mental trickery and hypnosis-style make-you-believe-things powers, and casting seemings and conjuring holograms, etc.. And while it would be pretty easy to justify including all that under the domain of Luna, goddess of the night and trickery and misdirection and things, the result can easily come across as incoherent. This is how we got Lunars 2e. I would like some way to reconcile it all, but I don’t have one.

John:
>Well, shapeshifting and phantasmal illusions are two very different and very powerful abilities. They are not necessarily inversions, but they aren’t of a same set either. I think it’s safer to say that they are conversions of one another. If I allowed Lunars to pick shapeshifting or the power to project illusions, I would quickly have people demanding that they should get both and that a disconnect is unreasonable, even if I were to explain the logic of the division in-text. I don’t see the gain being worth the subtraction from the “were-thing” side of the design, which is already going to be super complex and difficult to resolve.

>>97156584
Power stealing is a distinct ability of its own, widely used in fiction and thematically appropriste for Lunars. It's also not the only thing I suggested, so claiming that I only suggesting "stapling other people's abilities onto them" is disgustingly dishonest.

Also I'm married to shapeshifting because it's cool as fuck. That's all. If you dislike shapeshifting, why are you so stuck on Lunars? Insisting that a splat whose core ideas don't appeal to you - but do appeal to other people - should be remade so that it'd appeal more to you and less to its actual pre-existing fans is dumb as fuck. What you want is pretty clearly a new Exalted type, and you can just try to get brainstorming going on about that new kind of Exalt without pretending that it has anything to do with Lunars.

>>97156636
Anon, he is the 3e editor.

>>97156656
Hey fuck you buddy. As I've said another post I don't hate it, but what I do hate is everything having to be through that lens when even the developers know that's wrong.
See
>>97156629
>>97156641
>>97156647
>>97156624
Where they let a few weird autistic quibbles quash expanding their power set to something that is entirely reasonable and thematic. That is the problem and you're part of it.