>>97112000
>TQ
No Key would be a fun encounter for my Dragonblood group. We travel through places that could be his kingdom without even thinking about it all the time, he's beefy enough to give them a good fight, and immortality being on the line would matter to them much more than my Celestial group.

The Perfect of Paragon. The tricky part would be dealing with the Solar he has, but once she’s gone he’s just another mortal to shrink and toy with. Plus the lunar would really like his staff.

>>97112000
This art made me remember how awkward the new iconics look, they are doing faces like they are modern adorkable Disney heroines.

>>97112000
Ipithymia. Rare case where I feel the 2e lore and the 3e lore coexist harmoniously rather than conflict. You can have her sucker PLAYERS in by preaching about reducing suffering and guiding the damned into enduring hard times...and then you actually go to her streets where flesh is sold wholesale and people are stuffed into little boxes to be assfucked with hot pokers, and you see what a goddamn 3CD manifestation of Malfeas' whyboner thinks "reducing suffering" looks like in practice.

>>97112089
You know it's extremely likely that the Perfect himself is a harder fight than Scarlet Whisper, right? She's a pretty fresh-faced Linguistics/Socialize Eclipse who likes to stay behind the scenes, talk to people, sex it up, and chose to stay true to her home (where crime is illegal and everybody's protected by the omniscient Perfect who can smite down whoever he doesn't like) rather than go on adventures abroad. The chances that she's got more than three dots in any combat Ability is low. The Perfect meanwhile is a capbreaking enlightened mortal with an Artifact N/A who's been alive for centuries and explicitly trained all of his Attributes to 5 (and more than likely this was not his primary focus, since training most of his attributes from 4->5 literally does nothing) and his other skills are likely to be similarly ludicrous.

Unconquered Sun help you if you go at him with an attitude like that in 3e, where he'll have a whole line of Solar/Solar+ tier evocations too.

>>97112125
>Rare case where I feel the 2e lore and the 3e lore coexist harmoniously rather than conflict
My favorite case was when they turned the sun's daughter incestuous.

>>97112164
Kek, they really did eh? I guess the PC crowd will come away from 3e assuming Nysela is just a wholesome dutiful daughteru, while oldfags will come away thinking Nysela has immense daddy issues.

>>97112161
Enlightened mortals don't really exist anymore in 3e. The Perfecf of Paragon is probably just an "ordinary" un-Exalted Sorceror with an artifact that's eaten up a lot of the Willpower he has available to cast spells with.

Granted, he's probably got a bunch of Evocations with his sceptre, but that's probably how the branding and spying work, so he may not have anything more combat-relevant from it other than the base Artifact Weapon profile he can use when he bonks people with it.

>>97112323
They are walking back from this, the dude with the skyrock is enlightened thanks for his n/a artifact.

>>97112323
>Enlightened mortals don't really exist anymore in 3e.
They absolutely do, they just require unique circumstances. No standardized charms to enlighten people anymore, that sort of thing. The other guy who picked up an Artifact N/A in the south was enlightened by it just fine. You've got Mist in Core and a couple of others around the place, and Godblooded are back too.

>Granted, he's probably got a bunch of Evocations with his sceptre, but that's probably how the branding and spying work, so he may not have anything more combat-relevant from it other than the base Artifact Weapon profile he can use when he bonks people with it.
It used to be the base effect of the sceptre, and nothing's changed that would make that no longer the case. It just seems really optimistic to assume that all of your enemies are incompetent morons you can play around with at will, is all.

>>97112392
>No standardized charms to enlighten people anymore, that sort of thing
Yeah, usually it'll be an Exalt charm like the one Janest gets, or the one Solars get in Essence.

Pyreflame Apostles are laughably bad.

>>97112392
>They absolutely do, they just require unique circumstances
This is a case "the exception that proves the rule".

Despite their intend of breaking away from "Perfect is the only mortal sorcerer king" view, they made the problem worse, since mortals with powers aren't really a thing in the default setting, only thanks to one-of-a-kind miracles that it can happen.

It is similar to how they killed martial arts societies.

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Blossoms in the Night Breeze is on the Directorate in 1e Manacles and Coin
>A regular, minor terrestrial God in the Court of Seasons
>Savvy trader, pushes the personal aspects of their portfolio to be luxurious commodities to royals, including the Empress
>celebrant of Spring in both senses, growth and abundance
>leverages the position to one day get a better position in the Court of Seasons.

removed in 2e because of mortalwank imperative.

>>97112161
It really doesn’t matter. An enlightened mortal will be very lucky to hold their own with a dragon-blooded, let alone a celestial. The man WILL be shrunk, and he WILL be sat on right on his sad little mortal throne.

>>97112423
>martial art societies exist and are most commonly practiced by mortals unless it's a SMA
>they get literally nothing out of it
but why

>>97112423
>It is similar to how they killed martial arts societies.
Anon, I have to be honest with you. The way you end so many of your posts like this is really recognizable and makes me glaze over your opinions, even when they're otherwise good ones, because this "It is similar to XYZ" is nonsense 90% of the time that has nothing to do with what you're talking about and seems to just be stirring people up. You could use "It's like how" or "Just as" sometimes to freshen up the script?

>>97112450
i'm >>97112447 but I also agree with you, this guy's posting style is really obnoxious and every time he tries to draw things into a greater point he fumbles the bag and the conversation becomes significantly less interesting.

Family Guy cutaways tier irrelevant.

>>97112450
It was another similar example of how they accidentally went against design intent, thanks for the way they handled enlightened mortals.

>>97112447
I think it is the uniqueness creep.

>For a mortal to use martial arts, they need exceptional one-of-kind circumstances.
>since most don't have access to said circumstances.
>It means that only a select few will have access to martial arts charms.

>>97112000
OP, please remember to link the previous thread like this
>>97097470
Weekly Update
>First Draft
Alchemicals Companion: Avatars of Brass and Shadow
First of three Exalted projects moving forward, as the Alchemicals Companion (created thanks to the stretch goals of our amazing backers) rolls out!
>Redlines
Essence Player’s Guide: For the March Lords
Second is the first of our novellas from the Exalted Essence Player’s Guide, which is now in redlines!
>Final/Second Draft
Sidereals Jumpstart
Our third project is the Sidereals Jumpstart, as redlines are yeeted back to the writer for final drafts!
>Art Direction
Infernals (BK) – Backer Kit ongoing…
>Layout
Alchemicals
>Press
Exigents – File prep
fair bit of progress this week. a kind anon continues to provide the infernals draft as seen in the OP. this post >>97068761 tells you how to see it
the infernals campaign is moving along, donate if you give a shit
https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/onyx-path/deluxe-exalted-infernals

>>97112500
Essence handled this best and said that masters or prodigies could do the first charm of an MA once per scene. Not much, but gives a reason people strive for greatness.

>>97112500
You would think a four dot merit would represent some pretty exceptional circumstances. If you were looking at closely corresponding non-mutation/non-enhancement merits (by the way direct enhancement merits like Fleet of Foot should really not exist except as mutations), they could be a Guild factor, or have a national cult, or control a powerful demesne, or have a Terrestrial Exalt as a Retainer, or so on. It does seem like the kind of floor for enlightenment could be part of the Martial Artist merit pretty easily, with competition like that.

>>97112595
merit cost =/= in universe representations
merit costs are for Exalts, not mortals

>>97112613
Merit costs do represent roughly how rare those traits are. They don't represent how difficult they are to get in-universe.

>>97112447
I think the idea 3E originally had of giving Martial Arts mortal-accessible Techniques was a good one, and I wish they'd stuck with it. Of course writing a set of powers meant mostly for mortals for every MA would be a lot of work for, arguably, little gain. Just letting masters buy Essence 1 Charms of their style and to spend Willpower instead of Essence to power them would probably a better, and certainly and easier, way to handle it.

>>97112734
>Just letting masters buy Essence 1 Charms of their style and to spend Willpower instead of Essence to power them would probably a better, and certainly and easier, way to handle it.
I agree with letting masters buy Essence 1 charms for their style, but using Willpower in place of Essence gets way too janky. Let them have a 10-large mote pool. It even makes diegetic sense if you say that mortals don't have a natural way to increase their Essence rating even if they're enlightened - they're stuck at Essence 1, buying Essence 1 charms, with Essence x10 motes. Also, you could say that it gives us something like a terrestrial and celestial martial arts split again, sorta, based on which styles have Essence 1 vs Essence 2 Form charms.

>>97112595
Maybe I am remembering it wrong, but I think that merit exists for the purpose of niche protection, to disincentive the players from making every character a martial artist.

>>97112768
Fair enough, that'd be simpler.

thoughs on giving full-on Charm pilfering to eclipsoids ? (moonshadow, penumbra)

>>97112591
Also mortals gain tags for unarmed combat for practicing a martial art.

>>97113216
Charm share was a mistake, that shouldn't be repeated.

>>97112521
Speaking of the Alchemicals Companion, where can one find the other Companion PDFs out so far? I’ve tried both the OP links and paths_trove but can’t find them.

>>97112161
But Fatima is a Dawn, and would be stronger than both put together.

>Gee, The Perfect, why does the staff let you have two Solars?

Any way to fix Essence so it doesn't have DBs in the same league as solars ?

>>97114344
>Fatima.
It feels weird to read real names among the made up ones.

>>97114382
It happens. You get an Arianna, Anja, or, arguably, May Blossom.

>>97112229
Tiny Toons did the same thing.

>>97114018
The trove in OP already has the companions released to date. They are as follows:
>Miracles of the Solar Exalted
>Heirs to the Shogunate (Dragon-blooded)
>Many-Faced Strangers (Lunars)
>Miracles of the Divine Flame (Exigents)

>>97115617
I can't wait for the Infernal performance charms I am so hyyyyped.

>>97116060
WAIT. IT WAS ALREADY POSTED. fck yaaa

>>97112439
While it was 2e, reminder that the Perfect will become a Solar Exaltation magnet once he loses power and has to face actual adversity.

>>97112768
Let them do Shape Sorcery actions to get the motes, forcing them to power up like it's DBZ.

...Who would be the single most obnoxious person to give a Solar Exaltation too? Where all of Creation would cry out "fucking... why??"

>>97116437

>>97116437
your mom

>>97116437
I put forward Tepet Fokuf as an answer that both could be played as extremely obnoxious, could happen, probably has happened in some games, and would be a fun PC to build. A game where you started the game on the Scarlet Throne would be very funny, and quite possibly very fun.

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>>97116437
Can Havesh be topped?

>>97116378
>reminder that the Perfect will become a Solar Exaltation magnet once he loses power and has to face actual adversity.
That's not how it works, that's not how any of this works. For every person that gets an exaltation, there's a million people that faced just as much adversity that didn't get it. Exaltations are a lottery ticket and you have to put your life on the line just for a chance to win, but you'll stick most likely lose.

The Perfect of Paragon will, in the end, almost certainly be condemned to a life squirming in the asscrack of some giantess Lunar, and there's nothing he can do to stop it.

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>>97112000
Basphomy in Verdigris should have been the Iconic Azimuth. I would definitely use her in an Infernals campaign. How can we convince the devs to do more with her? And what are your thoughts on her?

>>97116629
This. I'm going to even go far as to say that trying to overanalyze who Exalts and why is the same sort of behavior that took the magic out of the setting.

>>97116734
Yes; and for all talks about being exalted for greater than life deeds, a lot of examples of exaltations, exalted after failures, some pretty mundane.

The essence 5 key for Hell-Soothing Reprieve is really neat but I wonder how practical it really is. On the other hand, Night-Clarion’s Beckoning Call with Adorjan speed charms sounds absolutely hilarious.

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>>97116734
>>97116751
Yep, for comparison, pic related would be considered an unusually lucky and charmed life, one of privilege and status most mortals could only dream of.

>>97116662
>woman with horns
redemption arc. followed by romance arc. pronto.

>>97116811
This is a really good post. If you kept the Solar trying their best and enjoying the time they spent with the mortal you'd have a really great story to tell. I prefer happy endings but after a thousand years you have a lot of possible happy endings.

We need more stuff like this.

>>97112089
5 guys with hammers is enough to kill a solar, and that guy has like at least 100 of them so good luck

>>97116975
5 guys is enough to maybe kills a mote-drained non-combat solar in the best of circumstances if your DM is a dick about it. Most of the time mortals won’t even get statted and will just be extras.

>>97116997
they're enough to kill even a hyperspecialized dawn

and if the solar gets lucky then just get a few more groups of 5 guys, not like there's a shortage

>>97117004
You get another group of 5 guys, you become 1 group of 10 guys, which is easy to defeat. The DM will not let you organize your group into its strongest possible function. A group of men will be a blob of extras.

In 3e, a group of 7 individual mortals once nearly wiped out our solar circle through a bit of focus fire. Their combat pools weren't even maxed out or anything.

We started strictly using battle groups after that.

>>97117015
you'll be fighting individual groups of 5 guys at a time becaues they don't move in groups of more than 5

that's exactly what makes them 5 guys and not 6 or 7 guys

>>97117016
How did you not kill them in one shot?

>>97117023
I think if you're having a hard time against 5 guys you aren't as optimal as you think you are.

>>97117004
If you have 100 guys and you're breaking them off into 5 Man groups, that's still one battle group because a battle group doesn't have a proximity or even a time requirement for how they are grouped. In this case, it would encompass all of the potential enemies he can send because of the intention to use all 100 men if necessary. If I wanted to have a combat challenge where the circle has to fight its way across a city but the only resistance is going to be faceless extras, that entire thing would be one battle group as well since that is the challenge.

>>97117100
nope, there's just 5 guys here now

also they're not a battlegroup, they're all individual characters, true heroes

>>97117123
No they’re just a 5 man battle group

>>97117123
Yeah, that doesn't matter. If you're planning to pull another group in case this one fails, they are all part of a big group of "guys I plan to use". Since you've already said that this is your intention, it is one battle group no matter how many five man teams you think up.

>>97117130
nope, it matters

this is just 1 patrol, you haven't encountered the other 200 patrols

also look at how hard you have to bargain here to stand a chance, solars are not that strong and you know it

>>97116997
Battlegroup fuckery is so cringe. You could put all the Solar PCs into a battlegroup, turning off all their charms. It's just the Storyteller saying 'I don't care to run combat and would prefer this group loses the fight' for whichever side they want to die.

>>97117137
I'm not bargaining anything, you already made it clear that there's a hundred guys in this attack force (or 200 patrols or whatever) and that they will be replenished as defeated. That's a battle group. Congratulations, you played yourself.

>>97117144
nope, they're all patrols of 5 guys without a magic ability to spontaneously teleport to you when you spot one, so you have to fight each patrol one by one

also they're not a battlegroup, they're all heroic individuals with hammers

>>97117154
Sorry, buddy, but that's still a battlegroup. The thing that makes it a battlegroup is your intent to use it like one.

>>97117161
nope, they're all unique heroes with hammers

and there's 5 of them here now, and 200 other groups of 5s for you to fight one by one

>>97117163
I mean you can put yourself on repeat but that's still a battlegroup. You're literally describing one in both your intent to use it and how it functions. I know you don't like that because it makes you look like an idiot

>>97117138
Battle groups are there because mortals don’t matter enough for them to be ran as individuals

>>97117169
it's not a battlegroup no matter how much you stomp your feet and cry

>>97117173
I'm not the one stomping my feet and crying here. You made up a scenario which would describe a battle group, declared your intent to run the scenario which would B1 in which a battle group would be used, and then extrapolated further to balloon the numbers in a way that would obligate one to be used in a practical manner. You had a much better chance of being accepted if you hadn't wanted to thump your chest about bringing in other guys if the first one is defeated.

>>97117180
it's not a battlegroup any more than a solar circle of PCs is a battlegroup

it's 5 HEROES with hammers

and there's more, they're just not here right now

>>97117187
5 mortal heroes is a size 1 battle group. Them being mortals is the key word here.

>>97117187
Doesn't matter. What makes them a battle group is how you intend to use them. You fucked yourself from the get-go by describing your plan.

>>97117195
mortals doesn't equal battlegroup by RAW
>>97117199
it doesn't matter how they're used, they're 5 unique heroes with hammers, they just aren't the only ones in the world

they don't turn into a battlegroup just like how the entire realm doesn't turn into a battlegroup when you attack two DBs

>>97117138
You can do some neat stuff with them in 3e, especially if you're a warlord type character.

>>97117210
Does it really matter? It’s fairly unlikely they’ll even pierce my Lunar’s hardness.

File: squidward.gif (2.01 MB, 400x270)

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>Holy shit, Solars are so fucking powerful! I'm a real high-flying demigod! Going to make a forum post about it later
>Wait a minute... A-are those... three mortals?
>And they're not... *gulp*... in a Battlegroup?
>AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEE SAVE MEEEEE SOL-SAMA
>ST THIS ISN'T FAIRRRR

>>97117210
It matters how they're used because of you. You are part of this equation, and you have basically said that you want to use an arbitrarily large number of people to make your point. This means that the challenge is not these squads, it's whatever arbitrarily large number you are planning to use. Can't you see? You are the thing undermining your own argument.

>>97117226
nope, it doesn't matter

they're 5 heroic guys, and you have to fight each of them individually

and there are more guys like them in the world, you'll have to fight them individually later

>>97117234
What makes them heroic?

My brother in Christ we’d have no trouble easily dispatching 5 dragon-blooded and voring them alive, what makes you think 5 mortals are going to fair better

>>97117234
You already outed yourself. I'm not sure how you think you can argue against that.

>>97117242
I think the guy might have read some post or something a long time ago but if you're decently optimized this is not a problem. I don't know what he's fucking talking about. I just have a problem with him intentionally misrepresenting how and why groups are used.

>>97112000
Cathak Setod, I just want to give the old dude therapy with hastening night's end

>>97112431
>picrel
I need to adopt her

>>97112000
>TQ
Someone with not a single combat or combat adjacent charm. Someone who Exalted and went full autistic on Survival or Bureaucracy. Doable in theory, but a group with no combat is impossible to find

>>97114378
Double their mote costs?

>>97117303
>Doable in theory, but a group with no combat is impossible to find
Every group can be a group with no combat. Just leave when you get attacked.

>>97117331
I mean finding a group who's ok running a no-combat game.

>>97117338
Why would I avoid combat when it's the best solution to everything?

>>97117399
A very common attitude, hence my dilemma

>>97117412
I'm asking you to make a convincing argument for it, because you're essentially asking every other player to not use some of their coolest powers

>>97117338
I've not run a game with no combat, but my games usually have combat maybe every 2-3 sessions. I advice my players to put some thought into how their characters will survive combat, but I think an entirely non-combat character might work at my table.

>>97117399
...But only as long as no more than 2 separate mortals at a time are involved, apparently.

>>97117431
Don't try to restart a fight based on someone's shit optimization.

Okay idea
Lunars
But instead of furries, magical girls

>>97117123
I would simply make them cum with Celestial Bliss Technique and they would be MY five guys with hammers. Checkmate, idiot.

>>97117172
>>97117214
To be clear when I say 'battlegroup fuckery' I mean battlegrouping things which clearly shouldn't be battlegrouped, or saying 'but i would put them in a battlegroup' as a counter in discussion about a topic. Putting things in a battlegroup is an absolute counter to anything, but it's cheap and entirely up to the Storyteller. The ST can choose to run five hundred individual mortal fighters if they really want to. The system will chug to say the least but it's doable. Battlegroups are optional; they're good for speeding up fights, but demanding your opponents be battlegrouped every time you're outnumbered and refusing to engage with discussion about a topic where the stronger individuals are outnumbered by non-BG'd characters is childish.

>>97117508
Brother, battlegroups are essential to getting anything resolved in a reasonable time. You're absolutely nuts

>>97117513
>Brother, battlegroups are essential to getting anything resolved in a reasonable time.
I did say that, yes.

>>97117477
you win

>>97117468
>Lunars
>But instead of furries, magical girls
Sidereals have already taken the niche, sorry. They have everything from the color-coded heavenly warriors to the identity-protecting secrets.

>>97117518
nah im thinking tokyo mew mew

>>97117508
>The ST can choose to run five hundred individual mortal fighters if they really want to.
remind me of when I was being an asshole and said I would manually roll 100+ ranged attacks against a player instead of resolving them as a battlegroup. Nothing was at stake and I was just being a petty dick. The game fell apart after that.

>>97117242
Anyway I think this comes from the 2e rule that when 5 people gang up on a target, the 5th attack is automatically a surprise attack (cannot apply dodge or parry), therefore 5 mortals with sledgehammers (the highest damage mortal weapon in the corebook) would be able to reliably deal damage and wear down anyone without the appropriate defenses. Unfortunately "appropriate defenses" are the very first Charms of Dodge and Awareness, or just having heavy armor.

>>97113955
does it matter for Essence ? no charm combos, everyone levels at the same time, feels like a better way of having a diverse charmset over allowing exigents

>>97117545
It's been a bit but wouldn't a single point of hardness stop it?

The system is predicated on battlegroups to represent multiple combatants. Removing them obviously breaks the battle system unless you give PCs something to balance it

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>Exalted is a game where mortals have a tendency to matter so little that it's advised you just run them as background extras that amount to little more than living scenery
>And even when they are run as a mild threat they're grouped together into massive numbers to expediate what will likely be an effortless asskicking of thousands of them all together
>"Okay but what if the DM deliberately was shitty on purpose and split up combat into thousands of individual characters?"
Yes, the DM is perfectly capable of making your game unplayable, but how is that an actual argument for anything?

>>97117657
more like the DM needs to hold your gigachad demigod hand so you don't get ruthlessly exterminated by completely reasonable numbers of mortals

>>97117672
Absolutely baseless

>>97117674
that's called "cringe"

>>97117683
I meant the claim had no legs, but it IS cringe

>>97117657
>Exalted is a game where mortals have a tendency to matter so little that it's advised you just run them as background extras that amount to little more than living scenery
God, I wish. Exalted would be improved so much if they actually were willing to stop adding mechanics to things that don't need them and let them just exist as background objects. Sail does not need to exist like this. Battlegroups being rendered as environmental hazards would be significantly more entertaining than what we have in any edition. Individual extras should indeed just be furniture who you can stunt off, do feats of strength on, and roll dice at using the general system. Instead they're clogging up the move order even as battlegroups, and occasionally somebody comes up with some ludicrous War combo or sees them highroll and oneshot half the party.

>>97117672
I don't even know if there's a single mortal capable of breaching my exalt's hardness. You're literally just wasting everybody's time if you run mortals as having actual stats.

>>97117729
It's always possible in 3e. Any mortal could theoretically oneshot any Exalt with how initiative works.

You have more of a point in 1e/2e, but it's kind of hard to scale Hardness higher than ~25ish, which is around where mortals softcap.

>>97117751
You'd have to intentionally open yourself up to attack and then choose to not use one of your million options to trivialize them

>>97117751
I would consider that the exalt bearing his throat to someone.

I don't get all this complaining, battle groups at least in 3e are a ton of fun and really mix up combat. They're not exactly complex unless charms enter the picture and even then it's pretty easy to keep track of. Really not sure what the issue is.

>>97117791
Yeah, one tough guy backed up by a battlegroup has been a pretty successful formula for fights in my experience.

>>97117618
Nope, hardness has to overcome the raw damage to stop it and raw damage was way higher then. Minimum damage was also really high for sledgehammer, so if you were completely wide open and let a hammer guy hit you, you would get slowly chipped away. But like I said, the countermeasures is a 1m reflexive charm with no prerequisites, so 5 mortals with hammers is largely hyperbole, on the level of laying your head down on a rock in front of them and inviting them to smash it in.

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but could an Exalt receive a Mage avatar/awakening? Could a Solar use Science of Mutation on himself to erupt his MR node?

>>97117959
No, being a Mage is an Exaltation in its own right and you can't be double-Exalted. There's an optional-canon Exalt type in Exigents that is implied to be early Mages.

>>97117959
>Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but could an Exalt receive a Mage avatar/awakening?
Depends. In Exalted Vs World of Darkness, no. There's no reason why not, they just don't. If you're writing crossover material of your own, there's no reason they wouldn't be able to.

>Could a Solar use Science of Mutation on himself to erupt his MR node?
Almost certainly not. Science of Mutation works only to give/remove physical mutations. Mutations that aren't physical or which strongly interact with the non-physical (like awakened essence, in Exalted 2e) wouldn't be something that charm could provide.

A Solar most likely could just learn a charm that lets them do that though, just like a Solar in the World of Darkness running on '2e character runs roughshod on the setting' logic might be able to Awaken as easily as taking a charm for it, like they do to initiate into sorcery. Sorcery is after all an equally parallel magic system to Exalted charms and equally doesn't directly interface with Exaltation or it's powers. An Exalt might have an uncommonly high potential for Awakened magic or numinae (like how Exaltation grants the potential to access higher levels of sorcery/martial arts/etc) or they might not (like how it doesn't do anything for thaumaturgy) and ultimately it'd be up to you.

>>97116662
>thoughts
Very cute and based.
Also I agree with that other guy: It's a hidden blessing she didn't get in, you just know 3e devs would absolutely ruin her.

>>97116578
Lyta specifically if you are Dragonblooded.

>An Exalt might have an uncommonly high potential for Awakened magic or numinae
Definitely for 3e solars

>>97117016
Infernals truly, utterly won this round mechanically. At least Abyssals get to brag about Immortal Malevolence meaning by RAW, no mortal can actually fucking kill them.

>>97116876
He didn't post the ending where solar waifu dies, (You) get her Exaltation and memories and (You) realize that she was faithful to you all along, and Lunar rival instantly becomes Lunar bro as you fight side by side to avenge her.

>>97118062
>Definitely for 3e solars
Extremely numinous

Being a Primordial Athletics Infernal basically turns you into Captain America who becomes Superman, right?

Start off with permanent buffs to your physicality that make you mildly superhuman that then eventually turns you into a massively superhuman flying brick. Move so fast people nearby get killed by the wind pressure of your movement alone, while being so strong you can bench press the Imperial Mountain.

>>97118067
>At least Abyssals get to brag about Immortal Malevolence meaning by RAW, no mortal can actually fucking kill them.
How's that work? Could the mortals not just camp the body and wait for it to respawn, then kill it again? Funnily enough crucifixion sounds effective here, since Immortal Malevolence lets them automatically climb out of it if they're buried or thrown in pits or down a well.

>>97118104
I would've compared a Primordial Athletics Infernal to Amatsu-Mikaboshi, honestly. Shit gets weird once you get Universe-Collapsing Juggernaut Beast.

>>97118105
I was thinking of that plus Resistance still being better than that of Solars IIRC, especially in terms of giving the squishy dude with a hammer trying to hurt you a bad time, letting Infernals simply whittle down mortals with penalties. That's the kicker imo-Solar Resistance is purely about trying to be tough with dice tricks, Abyssal Resistance has some FaFl theming that encourages them to HURT whoever's hurting them, and Infernal Resistance simply pops the DT if the mortal doesn't stop from shitting his pants due to Invulnerable Wounding Futility clashing the DT and Monstrous Wound Evolution making the Infernal poisonous.

Solars are unironically being held back in 3e because this is a system where the fastest way to stop someone hurting you is to hurt them back.

>>97118067
I'm not sure why you're trying to earn points in reference to a group that apparently doesn't know how to play.
>>97118147
ime Solars are genuinely tougher in practice. It's just pure toughness though, and not blended with another skill like in your examples.

>>97117545
Vance was also trying to push a similar thing with his interpretation of the ambush rules

>>97118067
This feels like it's going to end up like the guy jacking off the Dodge penalty reducer before someone pointed out it was just a weaker version of the solar charm.

>>97117563
This is just an admission that they cannot write an interesting Solar charmset.

>>97118147
This is because of the soft rule that Solars cannot be outright supernatural, it severely limits they charmset design.

>>97118224
It was a sidegrade, a more offensive version of the Solar dodge.

>>97118294
It was weaker. Didn't cover all penalties without an upgrade. XP deficits add up and imo there's a lot of that

>>97118224
>It's just pure toughness though
THAT, exactly that, is the problem with Solars: Their Charms are, mostly designed to cohere with the system and match things 1:1. But 3e is a system that greatly rewards bypassing systems and going on the offensive.

>>97118302
Meant for >>97118204. This isn't even getting into how the Devil-Body offers Expansive Form AND Legendary Size to laugh at attempts to send you into crash, I'm being generous here because by default you need to be fucked up before going into the D-B and it's once per story before upgrades.

>>97118302
>>97118307
In my experience they actually survive bad stuff though. I haven't checked Infernals in game, but they didn't feel at all weaker than anyone else in practice. They have charms for defense that are really strong and charms for offense that are really strong, and they usually needed less of each to achieve the effect of that ability.

>missing the point that Solars don't need to turn into devils or do a dracula resurrection to be the hardest to actually take down
My dude, you are complaining that the Superman guys are Superman

>>97118372
Abyssals got the eyes beams, though.

>>97118456
Theirs is a jojo reference.

>>97118466
Considering Crypt Bolt, and what they both mirror (Spirit Weapon, & Fiery Chakram), it is a star wars reference.

>>97114378
Excellency dice is reduced by half. That goes pretty much most of the way there.

>>97117657
>Exalted is a game where mortals have a tendency to matter so little that it's advised you just run them as background extras that amount to little more than living scenery
>but it also has a bunch of setting elements that assume this isn't the case and the gap is smaller than that
This is what baffles me the most about Exalted, that these two things are true.

>>97118070
It wasn't that she was faithful all along, it was something along the lines "some parts of her were still the girl you fell in love with" or something like that. At least that's how I remember it.

>>97118515
The reason is that the setting wasn't cohesive from the start, so we get both "Solars are as a strong as 10 men" and "the Exalted host fought and won against Solar system sized enemies".

>>97118515
But it isn't true. Mortals being irrelevant has always been nogame headcanon.

>>97118522
basically, she changed, but the important things stayed the same, and both (you) and Lunar bro managed to connect through that. And I think (You) died and it was Lunar bro, who survived to the Second Age, who told you about all of this, or something.

>>97118577
Extradom is actually a metaphysical thing in some editions.

>>97118552
Luke Skywalker fought and defeated a moon-sized enemy but he couldn't take on an unlimited number of regular dudes. There's no contradiction here. It's all a matter of how the Primordials were fought.

>>97118577
mortals being irrelevant is usually how the -system- works in each edition. 1e says most of them are going to be extras except for like maybe one guy, but unless you're a DB you are kicking the absolute shit out of mortals no matter what they do.

mortals are also very irrelevant social wise -mechanically- speaking in 1e and 2e. 3e makes this a lot harder, but ultimately they can't really be much of a threat against you socially speaking unless your ST just does fake rolls off screen or uses extra mechanics not present in the game to make it a challenge.

essence is the only edition of exalted in the entire game that actually has mechanics for a king using his resources and leverage to impede you, because it uses Qualities which are even more abstract than Charms / Merits.

>>97118684
>mortals being irrelevant is usually how the -system- works in each edition
not true either

there is 0 basis for it in lore or in mechanics, you're just delusional

>>97118612
Primordials were not originally conceived as that big. Creatures of the Wyld has multiple references that suggest that like, a solar circle or even a single solar + his pet cat could kick their ass. GoD power crept Exalted massively.

>>97118692
the post you were replying to and my post is not talking about lore, we're talking about the mechanics of the game. you are unironically a noreader.

>>97118710
exactly the kind of post you'd expect for a solar fanboy who's never played and doesn't even read lmao

>>97118699
That's not terribly relevant to my point. I'm glad GoD did what it did, though, as Primordials who are worlds in themselves are a lot more distinct and interesting than Primordials who are just big, powerful dudes.

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>>97118692
Read >>97118515 again you moron.

>>97118734
you couldn't even read 15 words into my post you deranged retard

you're the last person anyone should ever listen to in regards to what exalted is like

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>Solar players when 5 guys with hammers walk in and they're not a battlegroup

>>97118728
Your point is irrelevant to Exalted and the Primordial war, however. The Exalted actually fucking fought them, and we know for a fact that GET was used against them - this is true across all editions. That is the primary bulk of the war, that they were fought in the ways we'd expect a war to be fought. This is true in 1e and 2e.

GoD ultimately lead to the craziest indulgences in powerfagging this game has ever seen because people, fairly understandably, wanted to square the fact the Primordial War was won by primarily by Exalts despite the fact that Primordials are massive worlds unto themselves.

>>97118778
>the one time where mortals are absolute menaces without even needing essence is in the edition lauded for being the most solarwank fantasy ever
were we too hard on 2e?

To be fair, I think the reason mortals aren't allowed to be given ST tools that make them threats is because the game wants parity between npcs and pcs. A local chapter of the Guild should have actual powers/abilities, but not in a magic sense if you feel me?

>>97118780
1E has no canon take on how the Primordial War was fought. There's one possibility suggested by Grabowski, but one he himself made clear was not any kind of conclusive Word of God. Yes, we know that Exalts fought them, which does not mean that we know Exalts, like, went brawling with Theion personally. We know GET was used, which means what? It could mean GETing the whole soul hierarchy of a Primordial rather than punching at the Primordials jouten. Jenna Moran offers her own take here http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/Thus_Spake_Zaraborgstrom/KillingPrimordials, which is also not canon or conclusive but suggests killing a Primordial by killing its souls.

>>97118818
I get what you mean, but on the other hand I do feel that a Guild chapter, or any other significant wielder of mundane power and influence, should have access to supernatural assistance at least. Not as the cause of the power and influence, mind you, not saying that only supernatural powers or backing could possibly lead to success, but as a consequence, as power and influence mean you have a lot to offer to potential allies.

I think there was a post from years ago that painted a picture of how a Solar would grow more decadent over the years until they reached the point of depravity that justified the Usurpation. The line I always remember is how at some point fucking mortals starts feeling like bestiality because they barely feel like people next to you, so you start looking for something better like a Dragon-Blooded because nothing less will hit the spot.

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>>97118577
Tens of millions of mortals have perished to my Lunar's ass without her even noticing. And she LIKES mortals and feels protective of them. Please explain to me how they are relevant.

>>97118821
Wasn't there a mention of a Solar strangling one to death?

>>97118612
He didn't fist fight the deathstar, like how some passages from exalted implies that primordial war exalted did.

>>97118905
Sure, at which point the question becomes whether the mention of Merela strangling Mardukth to death might be a point of inconsistency to be removed, rather than everything that conflicts with that.

>>97118930
Merela was Sol's favorite, wasn't she?

>>97118821
>1E has no canon take on how the Primordial War was fought
A single Solar Circle ambushed a single Primordial and killed it in 1e.
Proto Puma Prime and his master were FEARED by Primordials.

If one tries really hard, there's a few ways to spin it, like saying how the first one was just a weak small Primordial or how the multiple Primordials referenced in the second one were just scared of being pissed on or something.

>We know GET was used, which means what?
We know GET in 1e was used against "the enemies of the gods", so okay, there's wiggle room it could be talking about their third circle souls right?
But we also know that a single Primordial can get ambushed by a Solar circle and die. So we know that they don't have to do the 3CD massacre strategy which im pretty sure is just a fanon assumption of how primordials become neverborn

There's pretty much nothing outside of vague murmurings that the way the Primordial War was fought was done in such a way that facilitates your example. I'm not even saying it's an undesireable example, it's just not how the setting has panned out.

>>97118930
It is WW, they just cannot be consistent.
But I believe that yes, it should be removed, fighting the primordials should have been like fighting the Overmind in Star Craft.

>>97118957
nah they shouldn't have made malfeas the size of jupiter, just wank and powerscales the demon realm exponentially

>>97119005
Yes, it doesn't really make sense, that they are far bigger than their own leisure home.
How big do you think they should be?

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I like how big they are. It emphasizes how unkillable they are to mortals. You could gather every mortal to have ever lived and never hope to meaningfully scratch a primordial. Only an exalt can take one down.

>>97119143
After a certain point, it becomes dysfunctional, to the point an anon was mindbroken once he realized that most of the setting consists of Malfeas.

>>97119202
He's a big guy

>>97118792
No.

>>97119222
UU
UU

E9XQFM8PQ4#X3vWOXQ5fRyX

I get sad sometimes. You're gonna offer that internet brotherhood crap, but whatever.

>>97120077
sorry you get sad sometimes. i tried to talk about the isekai exalted thing, but no one was interested and i don't believe in isekai anyway. thank you very much

>>97112431
Not that I mind (because they look great) but why does she have pointed ears?

>>97118792
>>97118778
Is this the new lie to bait noreads?

>>97120871
Sledgehammer posting is pretty old, 3e version involves hammers + shields.

>>97118940
I'll repeat that Jenna Moran, who wrote much of the Yozi stuff in 1E, suggested slaying 3CDs as the method of slaying a Primordial. I'm not just offering fanon, I'm offering writer statements, which obviously aren't the same as actual published material, but are definitely something. At the very least we can say that when Moran wrote her parts of GoD, she didn't view Primordials as something Solars took down by fighting the Primordial itself. Not that it's clear what even is the Primordial itself - they can have multiple bodies, and their bodies surely aren't more the actual Primordial than their souls are.

>>97120935
Wasn't five guys with hammers 2e? Because the fifth guy got "advantage of earth" or somesuch and set you DV to 0.

So you'd have five extras with the heavyiest weapon gang up on someone, and one of them was guaranteed to get a hit in.

>>97121343
Yes, 3e is because Solars can be stun locked if they fall prone.

>>97120321
Sorry I will never give a fuck about Exalted crossfic and will never engage with it.

>>97120871
its just a joke about how taking exalted's rules as a simulationist representation of the setting's physics will make you retarded

>>97121641
It is hard to tell apart, since they made some rules to be in-universe metaphysical things.

>>97120321
Well, for the most part, Exalted-related fics lack a point. They give the main character godlike power, and they do fuck all with it.

>>97121457
Ex Vs WoD is cool but the rules don't really work for this straight up kind of power fantasy. It's fun the first one or two times but it quickly becomes apparent that the rules were never meant to work this way.

I also really want to play Shadow or Sonic the Hedgehog in Exalted. gotta go faster faster faster faster faster.

>>97122068
>They give the main character godlike power, and they do fuck all with it.
I find I have this issue a lot,no real Motivation. Is there any way to solve this?

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>>97122309
Find people who don't want to play 'good guys', villains are always the main movers for change

>>97122309
>Is there any way to solve this?
Get a goal for them and put a fire under their ass. Basically give them scenario from the WoD Times of Judgement and you should do fine if the other half doesn't give them a more interesting task.

>>97122309
Play with people that are compatible with you.

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>>97122309
First you have to see if you are writing character based or story based, if it is the latter, try to put your characters in situations that they can't steamroll.

>>97118780
>The Exalted actually fucking fought them, and we know for a fact that GET was used against them - this is true across all editions.
There's actually no definitive evidence in any edition that Ghost-Eating Technique was ever used against a Yozi world-body, or that a world-body was fought hand-to-hand. Yes, some Yozi died to hand-to-hand, but if you hit the Brass Dancer with Ghost-Eating Technique then Malfeas fucking dies. If Adorjan steps into a dream to sex someone up in a humanoid form, and you also travel into that dream and then stab that Adorjani dream visitation to death with Ghost-Eating Technique, Adorjan dies. It is an entirely valid reading of the Primordial War to assume that nobody has access to any abilities which have not been canonically disclosed, and that none of the abilities we know people have do more than they say on the tin, and that Primordials who could not be found for or forced into kung fu battles were murdered or crippled down and then murdered in other ways.

I simply only care about Ghost-Eating Technique's applications during a game, as the Primordials are no longer anyone's concern.

Thread reminder that primordials could get out during 1e, and the setting was written on the basis of "rule of cool", "spur of the moment decisions", "aura farming", "hype", etc... so don't try to make sense of it, since the devs didn't really have any hard structure or logic to their writing.

>>97123032
>I simply only care about Ghost-Eating Technique's applications during a game, as the Primordials are no longer anyone's concern.
"How hard is killing Yozi," is something that matters to some games, if only because of the threat that you can do it, and because it might come up in some plotlines. A Sidereal who fails a legendary twisted fate mission might have a third circle demon pull their Yozi out of Malfeas, and it might be relevant to them to know whether the forces of Heaven would be able to deal with that if it happened, or if it's a matter for a spunky squad of Solars with spirit, or if the right Sidereal elder martial artist could stuff it back in it's cage solo.

>>97123214
>A Sidereal who fails a legendary twisted fate mission might have a third circle demon pull their Yozi out of Malfeas
The Yozis can't get out of Malfeas, so no, they would not do anything of the sort.

>>97118058
>you just know 3e devs would absolutely ruin her.
How? And I'd at least like some art and a proper Charms list for her.

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>>97123219
>The Yozis can't get out of Malfeas, so no, they would not do anything of the sort.
>making declarative statements about all of Exalted that are only accurate to a single edition
Depends on the table, 3e baby.

>>97123506
I'm pretty sure a manifestation doesn't mean the entire yozi itself gets out of Hell. I'm pretty sure it means the exact opposite?

Sorta like how people were saying you could travel from Hell and back without crossing Cecelyne. When in reality demons can just respond to stuff five days before it happens, because timey whimey nonsense.

>>97123506
As I am not playing 1e, that has no bearing on my statement. They will not be leaving Hell; I do not need a clarification on what will kill them or not because they are safely away from Creation.

>>97122946
A solar not being able to fight and kill a primordial in its world body to slay it is lame and uncool. Therefore, it's possible for a Solar to do that. Also it's canon to have happened before.

I think different Primordials just work different. Killing the Ebon Dragon for example would just make him stronger. Maybe one needs to constantly talk so if you shut him up with magic and strangle his voice he'll die on his own. Lots of options.

>>97123660
>Killing the Ebon Dragon for example would just make him stronger.
Would it? I've never gotten the impression that the Neverborn were actually stronger than the Yozi.

it should be obvious to anyone with a brain that exalted did not fist fight planet sized beings because you can't do that in the game

>>97123717
>because you can't do that in the game
If you can blow up all of Creation from chargen as a Sidereal why can't you do that?

>>97123717
Strangling a Primordial could mean a lot of things and at least Adorjan can fit all of her majesty into a single human form. It's not that impossible.

>>97123739
because the 5 guys with hammers will kill you

>>97123660
>A solar not being able to fight and kill a primordial in its world body to slay it is lame and uncool. Therefore, it's possible for a Solar to do that.
I honestly think the opposite. If a Solar can just pull something out of their ass to beat up a world-body, it makes the fact that the Primordials were entire worlds unto themselves much less impactful and the feats of the Solars less significant. If the Exalted had to actually come up with workarounds to things like that, solve the puzzle presented, and use the whole range of their abilities instead of just their combat suite, that would be a lot cooler than fifty kung fu battles. A world where Adrien is defeated by Twilight engineers damming the river that encircles the world is much cooler than the world where Adrien is defeated by Merela walking up to the river, reaching in and miming strangling gestures until it dies. Defeating what-was-Elloge is much cooler if it involves manufactured languages being spread across the world at the speed of rumours that tie it up in grammar chains.

>Also it's canon to have happened before.
I think you may have misread my post if you think what I'm arguing against is canon. Primordials going down to Solars, yes. Primordial world-bodies dying to direct combat, no.

>Killing the Ebon Dragon for example would just make him stronger.
That's not necessarily the case. You might be thinking of Autochthon.

>>97123739
>If you can blow up all of Creation from chargen as a Sidereal why can't you do that?
You... can't? Duh? Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick doesn't work if that's what you're referring to. Not available in chargen and doesn't target inanimate objects or anybody behind something.

>>97123782
Nigger that all sounds lame as fuck, but more importantly it's incredibly devaluing to how legendarily powerful your combat prowess should be. I don't give a good goddamn if it makes any given primordial sound less cool, they aren't the ones we need to be hyping up. It makes the exalted so much more cool if they're Kung Fu alone is greater than one of the beings that shaped the world.

>>97123791
>It makes the exalted so much more cool if they're Kung Fu alone is greater than one of the beings that shaped the world.
Anon you're being really fucking dense. Yes, Exalted kung fu can be stronger than one of the beings that shaped the world. No, it's not strong enough to explode the world. There's a fucking difference.

>>97123797
I'm not dense, I've just heard this all before and what it does is devalue combat skills because somehow you're playing *this* game and can't wrap your head around being able to kick the milky way's ass

>>97123782
For me it's a mix of both. I want different things to be possible for different Primordials/Yozi. Some of them you could choke out, some you can't. Some you need to fetch death, some you don't. Some you flat out don't want to kill, some you can get away with. Each one is unique so them having universal rules of engagement just doesn't work for me.

>That's not necessarily the case.

Sure, but it's heavily implied to be when it's labyrinth eventually gets cracked. You are right though. I do wonder what it is about Auto that makes him so scary as a Neverborn.

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>>97123797
>>97123782
Here's how I feel about that.

>>97123791
you have no idea what exalted is

>>97123852
I have a perfect idea of what it is.

>>97123846
Exalted is in it's worst state when it devolves into everybody throwing energy blasts at each other, making three quarters of the game irrelevant and spitting on any unoptimized build.

>>97123908
So, character generation?

>>97123921
It's literally never devolved to that state in chargen in any Exalted edition, though it certainly has with some homebrew out there.

>>97123908
That's basically every instance of combat. I'm not going to let you poo poo on my favorite part of the game.

>>97123938
There are definitely energy blast charms you can access when you're making your character. It just kind of sounds like you don't like battle characters using battle to solve their problems.

>>97123908
So in fanfic land?

>>97123151
This. The worst thing to ever happen to Exalted was pretending that spur of the moment decisions by disorganised, confused developers should be treated like sacred gospel.

>>97124027
Some of those are really good decisions though. I've said it in these threads before but the stuff about what you *can't* do in the setting is important for making sure consequences matter.

>>97123791
More than Exalted combat prowess deserves hyping up, and Solar linguists battling pre-Elloge through conlangs is good and cool specifically because it lets those Solar linguists shine. If you want a game where only combat prowess matters you should unironically go play DnD or some of its ilk instead.

>>97124085
It's the principle of the matter. No monster should be so big that you can't kill it with your combat abilities. Maybe some weren't killed directly, perhaps these methods were employed to capture the rest after it was decided that slaughter wasn't preferable, but it shouldn't be for the lack of capability to.

Secondly your idea just straight up sounds boring as fuck. You gotta at least make your shit showy. Fucking conlangs, Jesus.

>>97124104
Sure, it's the principle of the matter, and the principle of the matter is that more than combat Abilities should matter. Therefore, not every problem should be solveable and not every foe defeatable through kung fu. You'd have more ofa leg to stand on if you'd just saus that "no monster should be so big that you can't kill it", because invincible enemies with "you lose" statblocks definitely shouldn't be a thing in Exalted, but there's no thematic or prarctical reason to give combat skills precedence over any other skills the way you're suggesting.

>>97123506
>>97123653
>Blood and Salt has Kimberry manifest
>the next page over from that link says outright that a 3CD could conceivably fully summon a Yozi into Creation
just say you don't like it rather than try to play word games.

>>97122946
nta but GET would work on all of them. also world body wasn't even an edified concept until 2e, in 1e it was just various ways that yozis tended to manifest.

>>97124117
You're equating killing them being viable with killing having precedence. What I'm arguing for is that violence is always an option. You can just murder the guy. Maybe it won't lead to the best outcome, but it's your choice to use the sword or not. The size or nature of the enemy is irrelevant to your choice
To stay on topic, think about the outcomes of the primordial war. The ones they decided to kill created a fucked up mirror world where souls become trapped before they can reincarnate and gave rise to entirely new types of monsters. The ones they decided to merely imprison are still neatly in their box, but will lend their power to those who seek ruin on Creation and have corrupted many with their temptations. Different consequences, but you had an equal choice of both.

>>97123782
Your ideas would be way cooler if like, they could still be fought with kung fu, because tactics like that are sort of lame if they're Mistletoe-to-immortal-Baldur aka necessary rather than a clever, lateral solution. It also reflects the game world the Exalted play around in a lot better, because it's rare in Exalted that you are going to fight anything where it's like "You be 8 Linguistics tall before you can even thinking about fighting this guy"

The Primordial War should not be so absolutely abstracted from the main play experience that it is impossible to conceive how it worked. Every edition of the game builds hype on the Celestials in particular that they fought in that war and kicked ass.

>>97124141
Broad agreement with this. When I play this game, I feel way better when I chose an alternative path because it was an actual choice.

>>97124132
>also world body wasn't even an edified concept until 2e
It doesn't need to be codified to exist, and it's questionable to say that it exists as a defined concept with strict limits in 2e too. It definitely was an idea that existed in 1e. Malfeas was still the demon city, Autochthon was still a world unto himself, and hell, Gaia's relationship with Creation was much closer than it ended up in publications later on too.

>Befoul the Traitor Sun
>War 5, Essence 3
>Blinds enemy battle groups
>Exposes enemy battle groups to Green Sun Wasting
>Exposes crashed enemies to Green Sun Wasting too
>Deprives infected battlegroups of Might and inflicts -2 penalties
>Oh yeah and fucks over divination/prophecy because why not
Damn, this is cool. I wish there was a single Solar War Charm with the same flair.

>>97124149
>Your ideas would be way cooler if like, they could still be fought with kung fu
It's just an unreasonable amount of kung fu for them to be throwing, is all. At some point you need to progress to pitching nuclear bombs at mountains and using giant needles to pin down oceans instead of throwing hands. All of the Yozi had multiple jouten and maybe kung fu could be involved in solving one of them for each Yozi, but violence cannot be the universal solution, the skeleton key to solve all problems. That's just as lame as if Sail is the only solution to Adrien, or if the only way to beat Isidoros is to find someone who can break his will and Ride him.

Oh and

>From My Dread Keep
Infernals can just SPAWN GREATER MANSES INTO EXISTENCE with vaguely defined fortification-based advantages at E5 lmao.

>>97124180
>From My Dread Keep
Inauspicious Citadel called, it wants it's whole flow back.

>>97124189
To be fair Inauspicious Citadel got a Yozi knockoff in 2e already, so there's precedent.

>>97124177
It's entirely reasonable to use Kung Fu, especially in the context of a fight. Grind down their mountains with your heel, part their seas with a chop. That's the kind of game this is. You have to embrace the player choice to solve problems the way they want to.

>>97124215
>Grind down their mountains with your heel, part their seas with a chop.
>That's the kind of game this is.
>the kind of game which doesn't let any playable character do any of that
Sure buddy.

>>97124224
In the context of fighting a titan I'd allow those as regular stunts. Sorry that you're lame.

>>97124177
Violence is a universal solution. The issue that the game will always present is the consequence of said violence. Neverborn exist because violence was chosen, and the amount of violence necessary to make that no longer a problem exceeds the other paths that could have been chosen, or could still be chosen. This is a pretty big thematic element. Violence is an answer. It is rarely the best answer. There are no rule or fight wisely charms in Exalted, go nuts.
Also, you seem to be agreeing with the earlier anons in this thread who said that scaling the Primordials to be world tier just fucked the game's sense of scale? I have no dog in that race, but I'm interested in what you think because I feel like your main issue is that if violence is omniapplicable to Primordials, it scales up the Exalted in weird ways?

>>97124132
What are yiu basibg the idea of GET working on any of them on? None of them is more than a part of a Yozi.

>>97124149
NTA, but I don't think Primordial War shpuld be abstracted, but I do think it should be something that was fought using the entirety of Exalted skillset, including abilities that'd be generally considered non-combat. I also think that the War should've been fought primarily against souls of Primordials, with Primordials themselves obviously also being active participants but more as sentient battlefields and battlefield conditions, large-scale hazards, larger-scale strategic circumstances and so on rather than as combatants.

>>97124238
There's something really funny to me about how they just completely gave up on trying to define the consequences of "What happens if you beat up and kill a Neverborn?"

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I want my Exalt and his friends to make the bad decision of kicking a Yozi's ass and making a new Neverborn. Game should stat that out or no balls.

>>97124238
>Neverborn exist because violence was chosen, and the amount of violence necessary to make that no longer a problem exceeds the other paths that could have been chosen, or could still be chosen.
On this, I think it's also important to understand that the yozi are still their own problem. They are just a different kind of problem than the Neverborn, not necessarily an easier or less serious one either.
>>97124244
I always treated it like purifying the soul. Of course you don't actually want them to reincarnate so would you still kill them?

>>97124229
>In the context of fighting a titan I'd allow those as regular stunts. Sorry that you're lame.
Congrats on your homebrew. Must be nice to be able to do anything at your table. I prefer a little grit.

>>97124238
>Also, you seem to be agreeing with the earlier anons in this thread who said that scaling the Primordials to be world tier just fucked the game's sense of scale?
No, that's fine. It's people who scale Exalted combat to world tier based on Primordials having world bodies that fuck the game's scale.

>Violence is a universal solution.
Violence is a universal solution, combat is not a universal solution. Throwing hands is not a universal solution. Killing all your enemies can be done, at a certain point it becomes unrealistic to fistfight them even for Exalted. There are other ways of going about it that are fully available to the Exalted and nobody wants to think that they used them because then the Exalted would not have been fistfighting Primordial worlds out to get them.

>>97124249
>Game should stat that out or no balls.
I mean it kinda did for Autochthon. Him dying makes the Engine of Extinction, fuses with the Neverborn, gets eaten by the First and Forsaken Lion to make the Onceborn, which is the First and Forsaken Lion with a world-body and a hundred fresh Abyssal Exaltations popped out of his ass to work as something like second circle demon equivalents, with his host of Neverborn as the third circle equivalents. FaFL's humanoid form probably gets the kilomote but other than that I don't think it gets buffed - but considering it already has all Solar and Abyssal charms that's a hard enough fight already.

>>97124255
I think your view is just really small. The game is not realistic, so it's fine to envision larger than life feats about fighting things that are the size of worlds or whatever. Striking a living ocean and delivering a crippling blow to it is impossible for you, but it is not impossible for the Chosen. This is a problem with your own imagination.

>>97124255
>No, that's fine. It's people who scale Exalted combat to world tier based on Primordials having world bodies that fuck the game's scale.
Most canonical sources we have about the Primordial War from every edition lean more toward actual fighting, ambushes and war rather than the lateral mistletoe / ability Achilles heel as a necessity that you're suggesting though. It really seems like the omphalos of your thoughts are because they're very big.
>Violence is a universal solution, combat is not a universal solution. Throwing hands is not a universal solution.
I'm arguing that it was always on the table, not that it was always the best solution, or you couldn't marry it with other strategies, or that the geniuses of the Exalted host wouldn't have done that.

As an example, let's say in the Primordial War a few genius Exalted created a grand lake of white paint that'd obscure Elloge's calligraphy and they lead them to it. I think it's way cooler that they do that because they're making the fight less hard, rather than that being necessary.

Things like say, the Deathlords / certain other specific immortalities where you actually DO have to do something extra that is not hitting something are pretty infrequent and aren't hinted to have applied to the Primordials. Lazy fucking bums haven't even given their Fetich souls Deathlord esque immortality.

>>97124280
Fighting Primordials through large-scale engineering projects, song, philosophical debates or such is not by any possible stretch of imagination smaller, less impressive or less imaginative than just punching them.

>>97124280
It's not hard to imagine. I have played Nobilis. This is the kind of play that isn't available in Exalted outside fanon. Would it be nice if it wasn't the case? Sure. But I don't live in fantasy worlds, I only enjoy them.

>>97124291
>I'm arguing that it was always on the table, not that it was always the best solution, or you couldn't marry it with other strategies, or that the geniuses of the Exalted host wouldn't have done that.
I'm aware, assuming the 'it' you're talking about is kung fu combat. I was just arguing against it.

>they do that because they're making the fight less hard, rather than that being necessary.
I don't think that, specifically, would be necessary. There are a lot of ways to creatively deal with Elloge, not just one - which seems to be what you think I'm saying, that only one thing should be able to beat them? Which isn't what I'm saying, what I"m saying is that for some enemies simple violence should not be a solution, not even a 'solve the problem but have consequences/new problems' kind of solution. I think Elloge's calligraphed landscapes are probably too much for any canon combination of combat effects E6 and below to deal with and that some kind of custom solution to it would be needed. I don't think there is any specific such solution that should be proscribed ahead of time and that it should be up to the fucking Exalted, champions of the gods, to come up with one. Maybe that's a great lake of white eraser, maybe it's an infection of binding conlangs, maybe it's just firing a fucking continent at it out of a superhuge ballista they shaped up out of the Wyld and throwing GET on top, but none of this involves Join Battle unless it's to fight the things Elloge is sending to stop it happening, or to sabotage the mystical escape key before Elloge can use it to escape it's oncoming doom, or whatever other secondary thing is happening.

>>97124149
>The Primordial War should not be so absolutely abstracted from the main play experience that it is impossible to conceive how it worked.
that's what you would be doing by pretending that they fought world sized beings you blithering nogame retard

>>97124307
But punch them they did. That's more or less the implication of all the writing.
>>97124316
You're really not making a good case for why they can't be punched. I can't even think of a good reason why you wouldn't be able to In your own example. I just don't get why you think you need elder essence effects to deal with it.

>>97124327
>I just don't get why you think you need elder essence effects to deal with it.
I fucking don't. None of the solutions I presented involve elder essence. I think elder essence effects - high level Golden Destruction Cuts, some SMA effects, certain Lunar chicanery - exist which shortcut a lot of this and let you do the kind of direct violence you apparently want to see out of the Primordial War, but elder essence wasn't on the table in 2e and in 1e elder essence wasn't as ludicrous unless you took specifically Pattern Spider Touch and Grandmother Spider Mastery combined into Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick as both possible and the default that the rest of elder essence should scale equal-to-or-over as opposed to end of the style capstones, so what-the-fuck ever.

>>97124334
>Golden Destruction Cuts
*World-Scarring Solar Glory
I thought I'd said that wrong but couldn't be assed to double check until after.

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>>97124326
>they didn't fight world sized beings bro
>said world sized beings just stood around and waited
>also that one source from 1e that said a circle of solars killed a primordial doesn't count, that primordial was probably small bro
>also those examples from 2e don't count either
>basically all applicable sources don't count bro
u are a nogame, nobook retard.

>>97124326
What did those world sized beings do during the war

>>97124334
I don't see why you think you need any of that or your other obtuse solutions. How did you get to the point where you're reading this description and you believe that it was not something that could be solved with karate? How was your first thought not "man it would be so cool to punch this in the fucking face"?

>>97124149
>The Primordial War should not be so absolutely abstracted from the main play experience that it is impossible to conceive how it worked.
>...Unless it fits my retarded misinterpretation of the lore, then abstract as much as necessary

>>97124327
I'm going to repeat, again, that Moran's suggestion for how Primordials were killed was that it happened by killimg their 3CDs. Sure, 3CDs can be punched, nothing controversial about that. 3CDs being the primary vector of interacting with Primordials also fits how they're generally portrayed. It also neatly squares the circle of Exalted being demonstrably capable of defeating Primordials while lacking Charms for fighting world-sized enemies. I think pretty much everything related to Primordial War makes more sense if we conceptualize fighting a Primordial as waging a war against its soul hierarchy rather than as engaging in fisticuffs with a world-sized titan.

>>97124356
see >>97124339 nobook

>>97124361
>>97124339
>>97124346
>duuuude they just ran at them and punched them epic style!!!
>umm what do you mean the book doesn't say that and the rules don't support it?
>NUH UH IT'S WHAT HAPPENED LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU

>>97124359
And I think doing it only that way is lame, especially if you didn't have a choice. But we already know that wasn't the only way that they did that, we know that they did fucking just jump one (the whole goddamn thing) and stomped it like a fresh face in prison.
>>97124371
Ah, the refuge of the defeated: Roleplay greentext.

>>97124348
Fighting the world-circling River of All Torments by damming or redirecting it is a whole lot more straightforward, more intuitive and less obtuse than punching or wrestling something like that.

>>97124339
My guy your sources are ass as far as supporting your point goes. Nobody's denied a circle of Solars killing a Primordial is viable, and you even said yourself they could just... not have been killing a world-body. You've literally not talked about 2e examples, but they don't support you either. The Primordial War is kept extremely vague and no direct examples support either side of this topic, which is why we've fallen back on the literal rest of the books and the rules they show up to say that the Primordial War is, as presented, viable by the rules as written from beginning to end, but that fighting world-bodies by joining battle and beating them up isn't.

>>97124376
the refuge of the retarded faggot: saying stupid shit

>>97124376
>Ah, the refuge of the defeated: Roleplay greentext.
You mean >>97124339 right?

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>>97124371
>>dude when the book says they ambushed the primordial and attacked it, what it meant to say is that it was a prolonged 3 month war against the entire soul hierarchy and all 3CDs were coordinated to die at the same time and a bunch of other shit that wasn't written or hinted at and barely exists in the books

>>97124376
Where does it say that Solars just jumped a Primordial, specifically while making it explicit that jumping the Primordial didn't include slaying its 3CDs?

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>>97124381

>>97124383
>they just punched them LOL that's so epic
The interpretation of a mentally retarded toddler.

>>97124378
>>97124388
I don't know, suplexing a river sounds awesome. It definitely makes them feel cooler.

>>97124383
Alright, anon, let's stop with the bullshit. I don't remember where the bit you're talking about is, so give a book and a page number and I'll check it out.

>>97124402
It sounds like something a stupid child would come up with but fortunately you can't do it in the actual game so it will never come up outside of your retarded takes ITT.

>>97124402
Alright, which Charms would let a Solar do that? E1-E5 range only, because I din't thibk anyone had had the time to reach E6+ during the Primordial War.

>>97124380
>and you even said yourself they could just... not have been killing a world-body
I'm the original anon who brought up the source and I've never said that. I have no idea why people are differentiating between world-body and Yozi in this sense because apart from Ebon Dragon - who is a 'mere' 50 miles long - , all Primordials are pretty fucking large and the human avatars The layering of jouten and humaniforms are later classifications from 2e that probably don't even apply to 1e Primordials in that manner.

>The Primordial War is kept extremely vague and no direct examples support either side of this topic,
My example says in no uncertain terms that a Primordial was ambushed and killed it. It can be more complex than that, but it is NOT the level of complexity that your side is arguing against my dude.

Your counterarguments straight up rely on things that are not written in the books. I have not seen a single one of you guys actually cite a source, just constantly bargain about world bodies and extrapolating what "ambush" and "strangled" means.

>>97124409
The Primordial War itself could not be fought inside the actual game. Exalted would lose to action economy.

How do you spend so much time with the franchise (since 2e apparently) and still manage to have such an absolutely batshit insane interpretation of the lore?

these conversations make me realize the primordials should have been smaller, honestly. it's just power wank power wank power wank. at least with that fucking scorpion weapon that's bigger than creation, there's setting reasons why it's not THAT dangerous.

>>97124416
I have cited Moran's views on this three times now, but sure, it's not published material, just a writer statement. If you've cited something supporting your view, as in if you've pointed to a specific book and page, I must've missed it.

>>97124414
Brawl tree probably. Nothing in the book says you *can't* wrestle a river.
>>97124425
I've been saying for years that over explaining the yozi/primordials was a fucking mistake.

>>97124421
Considering that Exalted were backed by something like a 100 million Dragon Kings, presumably by mortal humans with Tiger-Warrior Training as well, and had gods offering such support as they could without directly attacking Primordials, not necessarily.

>>97124421
Or the Primordial War was something other than just both sides holding W+M1 until someone won.

>>97124428
NTA but Moran is the worst cite for this shit because in the Sidereals book she said Pattern Spider Touch could one tap a Primordial, and that they had to use a Perfect Defense.

>>97124436
I don't want to be mean, but we can probably lay a bunch of the problem discussions at her feet.

>>97124434
every single war in exalted is something more than just both sides holding W+M1 until someone won though even when both sides die to being stabbed, are you retarded?

>>97124425
Nah, the actual point of Yozis is to make up the sub-setting of Hell. They should be written with that in mind. As has been said multiple times already, it's absolutely trivial to make sense of the combination of Primordial size, Exalted powers and the Primordial War's outcome simply by assuming that Primordials were fought through their 3CDs. The few rare and fairly unimportabt bits of writing implying otherwise are the odd details out, tge points of inconsistency that should be written out. Doing so leaves us with a perfectly consistent picture.

>>97124447
She is undeniably a huge reason why Exalted's lore is so strange and so beloved.

She is also the reason why we have people that come into this game that want to beat up the Shinma of Identities to make the Unconquered Sun and Scarlet Empress the same person. She is also the reason why we have to argue whether it's thematic that a Solar could wrestle with a boar that is world size. She is also the reason why some smarmy fucks point out in 1e Sidereals that Yozi COULD escape.

Ultimately, I'm glad we had her, because despite these issues, anyone else would have just made something gay and boring. The flaws of Exalted make it beautiful, and it makes autistic discussions like this better.

But seriously tho, the heavy lifting in the Primordial War on the Exalted side should probably have been by the Exalted and not millions of other things.

>>97124436
Moran's a great cite on the intention behind Primordials because she came up with a lot of their lore, and that's the case even if she's said dumb shit about some other things.

>>97124458
>As has been said multiple times already, it's absolutely trivial to make sense of the combination of Primordial size,
this thread and the last 20+ years of conversation on the subject disagree with this point. just because you think something really strongly doesn't mean it's right.

>>97124466
I don't think 1E Sidereals actually says that, though the wording's unclear enough to leave it debatable, and GoD says otherwise.

>But seriously tho, the heavy lifting in the Primordial War on the Exalted side should probably have been by the Exalted and not millions of other things.
I don't think anyone ITT has said otherwise.

>>97124475
>[inane nogame babbling] disagree with this point

>>97124468
She's a great cite because you agree with her dawg. Multiple writers worked on Primordial lore because it was iterated upon all across 1e.

>>97124475
Alright, so what's left not making sense to you if Primordial were fought as Moran suggested and implications of Primordials being fought more directly arewritten out?

>>97124485
>>97124383
nobook

>>97124487
No, because she knows for a fact what she had in mind when working in GoD. Also no other writer's been cited so far. I'm all up for discussing different, often mutually incompatible bits of lore, but that'd be a lot easier if people actually said what they're specifically basing their views on.

>>97124458
Your proposal is gayer than a theater kid in yoga pants, so I will deny it based on rule of cool.

>>97124458
>the few rare bits of unimportant writing should be ignored over my invented imaginary headcanon

>>97124416
>The layering of jouten and humaniforms are later classifications from 2e that probably don't even apply to 1e Primordials in that manner.
And if you read Games of Divinity you'd know plenty of Yozi have human forms in 1e. Killing the Primordial kills the Primordial.

>My example says in no uncertain terms that a Primordial was ambushed and killed it.
You seem to be the one misinterpreting if you think a world was just walking along and got ambushed.

>>97124507
Alright, so, since it's clear that everything that's been written about Primordials can't be true at the same time, at least not with the powers of the Exalted being as they are, what would be your rule of cool solution to this?

>>97124512
I haven't mentioned a single bit of headcanon, anon. Please stick to replying to things that've actually been said instead of ones you've hallucinated.

>>97124520
They freaking punched them dude! Now that's awesomesauce.

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GET wasn't even an option to kill Primordials at all in the most direct address we ever got on the topic.

>>97124520
I say they are true without changing any of the powers. I haven't heard a compelling argument that says that it wouldn't work and it's much cooler if we continue on with the idea that players begin with the powers that saved the world.

>>97124540
Bro can't even blow up a hill before E6 and he thinks he can blow up malfeas in combat time

>>97124540
Nobody has said that players shouldn't start with powers that saved the world, so I'm not sure why that even needed mentioning. What I want to know is how you think Exalts directly hmfought world-sized enemies while not having the means to, say, punch Creation hard enough to cause damage on a global scale, and how exactly did they use kung fu to fight those Primordials without conventional physical bodies to be damaged.

>>97124547
I'm not hearing a good reason. I'm hearing naysaying negative Nancies over analyzing a monster.
>>97124555
Probably the same variable physics that allows for players to destroy things while stunting. Now what's your actual argument instead of trying to make me make it for you?

>>97124572
Why do you refuse to answer a straightforward question?

>>97124572
>I'm not hearing a good reason
In this context good is subjective. You've heard a lot of reasons that I think are good. You're just not listening to them, probably because you'd already decided on your answer and anything conflicting with it is bad.

>Probably the same variable physics that allows for players to destroy things while stunting.
If a player stunts to destroy objects that are significant - i.e. they would be difficult to destroy and not something the character could do in passing, preferably judged via automatic success rules - then that stunt should just be bonus dice added to a feat of strength roll. A miscellaneous action.

>>97124577
I'm not in the habit of playing along with answering questions when the onus was on you to provide something compelling. You still haven't.
>>97124577
That's a neat house rule but I wouldn't use it.

>>97124608
Quoted the same guy twice lol. >>97124593
Here's your (You)

>>97124608
>>97124613
>That's a neat house rule but I wouldn't use it.
So... what? You just let people stunt destroying objects that they wouldn't be able to destroy with a feat of strength / attack? Should we extrapolate this such that anything is possible so long as it's in the background of a stunt?

Wait a minute. You guys are literally autisming out because you want one to one physics on powers? The fuck is this, some powerscaling bullshit? Yoziyap did some real damage to brains.
>>97124291
>It really seems like the omphalos of your thoughts are because they're very big.
This guy called it forever ago.

>>97124608
Just what the fuck 'compelling' am I supposed to provide for you to bother to actually answer the extremely simole and obviously relevant question of just how do you picture Exalts fighting world-sized enemies, some of who aren't really even physical, with the powers they actually have. My answer to that is " they don't, therefore they probably either fought 3CDs or then there was more than punching involved". Now I want to hear your answer. Bringing up "variable physics" is "I dunno, maybe ST will just let it happen" tier, which is not a very good answer when the internal consistency ot the lore and its fit with game mechanics is the subject.

>>97124630
What are you talking about, anon? I'm pretty sure you've somehow misunderstood literally every post on every side of this argument, because you're impression of what's being said seems very far removed from anything that's actually being said.

>>97124626
Mostly. I mean it's not like the examples or fiction we are given actually pay any mind to feat of strength rules, and I'm generally told by the books to reward interesting and fun stunts that include the environment and over the top action (putting the fact aside that you're never asked to check to see how strictly legal something is when somebody stunts). I might say no if I think it's disruptive to the session.
>>97124657
My answer to that is that they wind up and hit them. I can envision it perfectly in my mind how that action goes and how the resolution mechanics work, because they work the same as everything else. I see no problem with the lore, as hitting intangible things isn't odd in this setting either. This seems extremely consistent to me, I haven't applied any exceptions to the Primordial at all, treating them like any other enemy.

>>97123653
It means the yozi, the oaths could be violated, with the only reason for why they are still stuck, is because Heaven is monitoring escapes.

>>97124674
You're asking how they could take damage without also the guy being able to blow up the planet or something. That's stupid and you're stupid for thinking it. Not even D&D cares that much about how you're damaging stuff that big. You just can.

>>97124687
Would you let an Exalt crack Creation apart if he stunted it? I mean, that's not really any different from punching Malfeas hard enough to cause meaningful damage, so it'd be pretty odd to allow one but not the other. If you would let a player do that, you would, of course, be playing very different Exalted from the game most other people play.

>>97124720
Alright, then you should be able to blow up Creation as well. That's not a matter of wanting strict simulationist physics of any kind, it's just a matter of wanting the very barest modicum of in-setting consistency.

>>97124726
Well like I said, If it's disruptive to the session I wouldn't. I would probably split the difference to make it something suitably impressive but not derail the game, like make a really cool new landmark or something that lasts for a really long time. But potentially remaking the map and damaging an enemy are things of much different real group consequence. Damaging the enemy is not disruptive to the session, but suddenly turning this into a space campaign might be. You have to keep that perspective.

>>97124743
That's fair, but it definitely sounds that you run a lot more narrative games than what's the default for Exalted.

>>97124180
Gee whiz, I sure do wish we had rules for manses!

>>97124744
I try to keep my stuff in line with the mood of the game and a fiction and examples provided, which has always been more permissive than proscriptive. I don't know why you want to scale it down so hard but you do you I guess. But don't pretend like it's the correct or the right view if you don't want to get into pointless fights like these that you cannot win.

>>97124743
My stunt: "I cut off Ligier's head. He falls to the ground, lifeless. My attack proceeds on towards Octavian, screeching with the flaming fury of the decapitated Green Sun, bringing the radioactive fire of Malfeas' first soul down on the target of my wrath."
My charms: Ghost-Eating Technique
My successes on the attack roll: 2
Octavian's Defense: 6
Ligier's Defense: 14

Octavian parries effortlessly, but I guess Ligier dies.

>>97124767
I obviously can't win a "fight" if the other party basically just arbitrarily just declares he won and refuses to either engage or elaborate further. Obviously just the fact that one party views a discussion as a fight doesn't bode well in the first place.

>>97124772
Man I know you're out of juice when you're getting this disingenuous. Throw in the towel. We're all anonymous here, nobody will know come the next thread or even a few posts down that you're the same guy making up bullshit because you're upset.

>>97124787
I'm asking the obvious here, but are you autistic? Because if you thought that was discussion, you were incredibly standoffish and self-righteous, which is not how you have a discussion.

>>97124796
Brother, you're the one who replied to a completely fair and relevant question with
>I'm not in the habit of playing along with answering questions when the onus was on you to provide something compelling. You still haven't.
You have absolutely no room to accuse anyone else of being standoffish and self-righteous, which describes your own attitude to a t.

>>97124809
If that's where you think the confrontation was starting, you're autistic. I'll try to avoid stirring the pot around your posts in the future if I can help it. This is apparently one of your autistic focuses or something.