Do you prefer systems with a strict class-based martial/caster division or classless systems that allow anyone to dip into anything at the cost of never being great at it?
Letting people multi-class inevitably leads to meta gaming.
I prefer systems that let people build whatever they want within reason, thank you
>>97229035Sounds like you need better players.
>>97229027I prefer total puckee death.
>>97229027In my game, magic is appropriate for war, and classes are designed for their roles in battles against the numerous forces of evil in their world, instead of just being some arbitrary distinctions based on 70s pop culture literature and movies, mutated and neutered to please "the modern audience".
>puckee thread
>>97229027Classless with optional templates. This is the only correct way.also kys puckee
>>972290474pbp
>>97229027This looks like shit.
>>97229027Uh-oh, puckee! Poopie! Stinky AI art from puckee the redditor!https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1m1pnnd/artcomm_phineas_gavran_wizard_apprentice_by/https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/image/Dfqh8B0ovwZwGynzIrC5vg/
>>97230082He's here! The this-looks-like-shitter! Haha, tell us how shit everything looks!>>97230283There is no puckee.
>>97229027>Another fake binary choice thread>With a puckee image to bootJesus Christ, this board is beyond zombie.
>>97229027I can't think of any systems that have a strict class-based martial/caster division. D&D had gishes practically from day 1 and multi/dual classing became a thing really fast.
>>97230390>He said in a blatant puckee thread
>>97230499Literally worse than rpgnet now.
>>97229027Neither. Anyone can build their character however they want, and they can be good at more than one thing at a time.
Why is Puckee spamming his AI slop on /tg/ again?
>>97229035I personally despise multi-classing. At the very least, the way D&D does it because I also hate the 1-20 level system in general.I would personally make it a feat that takes several instances of getting regular feats to represent its powers and you'd get a lesser version of the orignal classes's power but never be able to overshadow the original's use of it.
>>97229027Ugh, this looks like shit!
>>97229027Classes are better, it gives more structure to the game and helps the GM keep everything in check.
>>97232930I agree honestly
>>97231862Because the mods won't do anything about it and never have.
>>97229035How so? You just need to make sure players pick their second classes based on what happened in game and character motivations, not because of what's mechanically strongest.
>>97229027Yes. Class games make new campaigns more fun, you get to try new mechanics that were not available before. Classless games can only offer the same experience if they have enough variety in their possible options.
>>97229027>puckee spamming his commission againhttps://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1m1pnnd/artcomm_phineas_gavran_wizard_apprentice_by/https://desuarchive.org/_/search/image/Dfqh8B0ovwZwGynzIrC5vg/>5 times since July 2025
>>97229027If my players (my wife and child) want something other than just being a person, they've got to seek it out in the world. And everything comes at a cost either in gold, or (mis)deeds. It's basically 5e but I've removed all classes and most racial abilities. They also don't really level up. My daughter has learned Detect Magic as a ritual from the village wise man. She does hunting and combat with a crossbow her dad taught her to use, and is pretty stealthy. My wife has learned to fight with a sword and shield from the old war veteran who lives in the village, in order to help defend against bandit raiders while the majority of men are out fighting in the war. Currently, they are investigating a group of bandits that have taken over the local iron mine. They already assassinated the leader of the bandits who camped at the shrine to a forgotten forest spirit. They cleaned the shrine and my daughter was granted limited use of a version of the entangle spell through an amulet. The bandit leader had a book on breathing exercises for fighters that resulted in the Second Wind ability for my wife. These new abilities will be a big deal if they end up fighting the bandits head-on, or running away for that matter. Yes, I could call my wife's character a fighter and my daughter's a ranger... But where's the fun in that?! My wife keeps ambushing people and stabbing them in the back if she can... So she might develop sneak attack at some point. And if she somehow
>>97229035Letting people build their own characters inevitably leads to metagaming. The correct answer is to ask your players what they want to play, and then building the specifics of the characters yourself so that all characters are equally minmaxed, and then I lay allowing character advancement based on what the characters have been practicing in the game. The guy who only talks and never swings a sword doesn't get better at swordplay as he gets more experienced. The less control players have over the mechanics of their characters the objectively better the game will be
>>97234531Cute.
>>97229027This looks likeThis looks likeThis looks like shitThis looks like crap, and this looks like assPosting and trolling on ol' /tg/ boardHey guess what your mom's a whore
>>97229027Classless is better, classes only restrict the game in arbitrary ways.
This is a bumpfag thread
>>97229035The Level-by-Level multi-classing was one of the biggest mistakes in 3.X. As most martial classes had their abilities front loaded and caster's power grew with caster levels. Dipping a few levels into a martial got most of their benefits while dipping into a caster was pretty much useless. The table based leveling didn't help either as it created many "dead" levels with no benefit.>>97231941>I would personally make it a feat that takes several instances of getting regular feats to represent its powers and you'd get a lesser version of the orignal classes's power but never be able to overshadow the original's use of it.You just described 4e D&D multi-classing.
>>97234531>And if she somehowSomehow... what?
>>97238311>You just described 4e D&D multi-classing.Well, really only one kind. 4e has three ways to multiclass:>Multiclass Feats>Hybrid Classes>Paragon Multiclassing
>at the cost of never being great at it?Any classless system that doesn't provide for synergies across disciplines is inherently shit.I'll go a step further. The dynamics of builds in any system should be that in a solo single-class build should be worse than a solo multi-class build, but a sufficiently organized team of single class builds working together should be better than an equal number of multi-class builds. The point of multi-classing should be to shore up an individual character's weakness that another class would cover if they were available to let that character reach their class's maximum heights.If you can't strike this balance, your system shouldn't allow for multi-classing at all.Not only that, if there is a class that isn't worth multiclassing into for any other class, you fucked up.
>>97229027Class-based because it's a game for more than one player. If you use some Elder Scrolls-ass shit for character creation all the players will make the same gish and seethe about not being great at everything.
>>97238882Anon got candleja
>>97229027Class based with the ability to mix and match and make tradeoffs here and there.
>>97239169Truth.
>>97239190That's not how Candlejack works, retard - you have to say the entire n
>>97239169hasn't ever happened in any of my games.
>>97239948Heh, heh, heh. The bait never fails.
>>97239160>I'll go a step further. The dynamics of builds in any system should be that in a solo single-class build should be worse than a solo multi-class build,That is a stupid take designed to pander to competitive multi-classing optimizers. A Fighter 5/Barbarian 5/Ranger 5/Paladin 5 should not be a better Fighter than a Fighter 20. In a truly well built system solo class builds and synergestic multi-class builds should be equally viable with comparable power.
>classesbro is posting from 1975 LOL
>>97239948Ok, I'm actually curious if there's a script that cuts posts that mention Candlejack in half or is it just anons' collective joke.
>>97241356It's a memetic reference to a joke used in the 90s cartoon Freakazoid that predict a lot about how things turned out on the internet.
>>97234704You are either nogames, or the despised DM who leads just because nobody else would.You sound like a reddit moderator on a power trip. Your entire post is disgusting.
>>97241754Minmaxing faggot assmad that he can't mechanically break the game detected
>>97242858Control freak shitting himself in terror at the thought of a player doing anything out of his own initiative.
Do people find this wizard apprentice attractive?
>>97240637>A Fighter 5/Barbarian 5/Ranger 5/Paladin 5 should not be a better Fighter than a Fighter 20I didn't say a multiclass should be better at being a class than a single class. I said it should be better at operating in a vacuum. A single class should feel like it is missing things. Characters should be significantly weakened by not having abilities from other classes or there is no point in partying in the first fucking place. Multiclassing should be giving up maximum potential to get rid of inherent weaknesses.Classes should complement each other or else what are you even fucking doing?
>>97240637>In a truly well built system solo class builds and synergestic multi-class builds should be equally viable with comparable power.In a truly well-built system, there should be no classes and characters grow by building synergies up from individual abilities that don't have prerequisites.
>>97229027Damn, this looks like shit! I thought AI was supposed to be good by now?
I was about to say something related to the thread question but I was mesmerized by how shit the artwork is. Only a complete tasteless retard would commission something like this.. I bet the guy who commissioned this is also a faggot beside a conglomerate of other mental issues.
>>97243786>I thought AI was supposed to be good by now?Good morning saar!
>>97229027>Do you prefer systems with a strict class-based martial/caster division or classless systems that allow anyone to dip into anything at the cost of never being great at it?
>>97244349What are you on about?
>>97229027This looks like shit!
>CTRL - F>Puckee>10 resultsyou guys are slipping
>>97245027explain
>>97245860What specifically should I explain, and what entitles the OP of this thread to receiving this explanation?
>>97243781>In a truly well-built system, there should be no classes and characters grow by building synergies up from individual abilities that don't have prerequisites.That is the exact opposite of a well built system. That mentality results in munchkin power gamers playing in imbalanced messes. Restrictions and limits do more for a game than free form insanity.
>>97243777>I didn't say a multiclass should be better at being a class than a single class. I said it should be better at operating in a vacuum. A single class should feel like it is missing things. Characters should be significantly weakened by not having abilities from other classes or there is no point in partying in the first fucking place. Multiclassing should be giving up maximum potential to get rid of inherent weaknesses.That is a very bad idea and that mentality is what resulted in the 3.X D&D Fighter and Rogue class design. Fighters were designed only to fight and Rouges were designed to be skill monkeys. Both classes suffered at higher levels due being pigeon holed.
I never understood the complaint about metagaming min/maxingAs a DM I’ll just make it harder and crank the CR of encounters.
>>97229027this looks like shit
>>97229027Class based system, with no multiclassing and minimum of class overlapping.
>>97242858Why did you choose a system that can be ruined by players making good decisions?
>>97246705Nope.
>>97246742>Fighters were designed only to fight and Rouges were designed to be skill monkeys. Both classes suffered at higher levels due being pigeon holed.So you think every class should be good at everything? That's shit design.
>>97248962Every class should be good at something meaningful.If a class is dropping off, either what they're good at isn't meaningful, or they aren't designed well enough to engage with it.
>>97249089On that, I agree.
>>97229035>Letting people multi-class inevitably leads to meta gaming.And? Building characters around expressing interesting mechanical ideas is fun, and doing so while also coming up with good rp reasons as for why your character is the way they are ironically makes for even better rp since it usually forces players to venture outside of comfortable tropes and come up with more unique character concepts. A Pallock is obviously a very strong meta gaming class combination, but the potential plot hooks of having someone who is torn between their personal honor code and their obligations to their patron are absurdly juicy from a narrative perspective.
>>97248962Two major issues popped up:1. Casters just got to be good at everything because "muh magic power fantasy" and the weird autistic need for a spell that could solve any problem, so the caster-martial divide became larger and larger.2. If the scope of what a character is meant for is limited enough, it leaves the player with a character that's useless in too many aspects of the game. It's not good design to have a class whose only abilities pertain to combat when a massive chunk of the game consists of non-combat things (and as such things the fighting focused class won't be useful in or interesting to play during that down time).Give casters heavier limits (they should not perform better in combat than fighting focused classes of the same level, they should not be able to just replace a skill monkey in scouting), give all classes more to do in rp heavy social situations and during dungeon crawling, there shouldn't be a class that's completely useless in a major phase of the game.
There is no reason at all that you shouldn't be able to make a character that is good at sneaking and good at fighting if that's what you want to do.
>>97249589>there shouldn't be a class that's completely useless in a major phase of the game.That should be obvious and I never suggested that. I don't think you should discount a good design philosophy simply due to a boneheaded execution. Gaps in class performance should always be vertical slices of a game.
>>97249721Classes will never be good design philosophy.
>>97249181I wish TTRPG companies and indie game designers agreed, but then again, I can just make what I want ("rewrite what you don't like") so I don't need to worry about what other people produce.
>>97249689This
>>97229040Are these better players in the room with us?
>>97229197But only if there is an exhaustive reference document restricting and structuring the freeform method of character creation. Otherwise you get problems like minmaxers all over again. Inevitably some asshole discovers some bullshit exploit in some obscure splat somewhere and they just dump all their points into that to one-shot every target without being able to do anything else.So although it feels strange, the class system emerged specifically to provide that structure, to force players to spread their build currency around to maintain basic competence for believable characters while also restricting power relative to other characters.To use concrete examples, in GURPS you could spend 100 points to be able to do insane amounts of unresistable guaranteed damage. But such a character wouldn't really be a character. They'd have no competence in basic skills like climbing or swimming or fucking knowing the symbols of the local deities and noble houses. They'd be absolutely crippled in some capacity that should prevent them adventuring at all (like an IQ of 6 or something insane like that). The other players might make realistic characters, with carefully chosen skills and powers to depict competent experienced adventurers with believable personality flaws and powers that don't threaten to destroy a city at the cost of five fatigue points.Or, in other words, by allowing players to escape the structure of a class and level system, you are requiring yourself to exercise extremely intense micromanaging oversight upon their character design... but that is exactly what a class and level system fucking IS in the first place. You can't escape the necessity of it. All you can do is manipulate the players' perceptions about its fairness.
>>97249089There is no point in the game at which skills and fighting are not meaningful. No one has all the skills. No one can fight alone. That doesn't mean rogues and fighters suffer. It means they're part of a team. You wouldn't like being told to wait until the fighter resolves the combat for everyone. You wouldn't like being told to wait while the rogue does an entire political intrigue dialogue and infiltrates the vault to sneak out with the jewel.Try to solo the game as a caster and see how far you get. Hint: you die to the first longsword you encounter at level 1, even if you win initiative, because encounters have multiple guys and you have to deal with multiple encounters per day before you can rest to recover your spells. There is no win condition for casters if they do not have people covering for them. That doesn't mean casters are useless.It means they're part of a team.Because it's a team game. Everyone has their role. And therefore everyone is meaningful.No matter whether you personally enjoy playing that role or not.
>>97229027AI art, AI thread topic
>>97249589>Casters just got to be good at everything because "muh magic power fantasy" and the weird autistic need for a spell that could solve any problem, so the caster-martial divide became larger and larger.That sad old chestnut all over again. We can tell you're new to this conversation because you're vomiting undigested memes you picked up from twenty year old charop flamewars which weren't even taken seriously in those days. But since you're a child, you lack media literacy and you interpreted it as sincere. Because you have absolutely no real experience actually playing the game.Here's a hint: go check out how many spells you get in a day and the action economy it takes to cast those spells. Being theoretically able to cast any spell doesn't mean you can cast them all for free and with no opportunity cost. Each one you cast costs you some other spell you couldn't cast instead. Even if you could do anything (which you emphatically cannot, in fact, which you would know if you actually read the spell lists), you still can't do everything. Action economy and opportunity cost are not things you can just handwave away. If your GM is just letting you cast unlimited spells by naming them when your turn comes up, that's a problem with you cheat and the GM being a dumbass.So don't cheat. And don't let your players cheat. Suddenly, as if by magic, there is no problem anymore.
>>97248610Warrior, thief, mage, priest.The classics are classic for a reason.>>97246778But the problem isn't minmaxing. It's the fact that players are not all equally competent at minmaxing and even if they were their characters wouldn't end up perfectly matched in sufficiently many encounters. You're gonna end up in situations where the weaker members get one-shot while the most powerful gimmicks just trivialize any encounter due to exploiting some abusive gimmick."I always go first because this advantage here says I do, and then I invoke my locate city nuke and the surrounding three thousand miles is rendered devoid of all forms of life or unlife, with myself being the sole exception. How much xp do I get?" is not a situation you can deal with fairly.You can concoct some bullshit to 'counter' it:"You would go first in the initiative order, except this guy has the thing that says he always goes first, even before you do because I said so." is just Mother May I. And now, congratulations, you are no longer playing a game. You're playing Mother May I. And those are no longer players, those are an audience for your shitty, low frame rate VN.The truth of the matter is that you do in fact need players to abide by some game system which limits their characters to reasonable abilities specifically to prevent there ever being a situation that spirals out of control, because that way always ends up as Mother May I.
>>97239962You're lying. And you are apparently so inexperienced that you believe we don't immediately know you're lying. Pretty embarrassing for you. But now you know: we all know you're lying. Be quiet. Adults are talking.
>>97229027Garbage thread. pee pee poo poo, have a (you)
>>97251405Fair enough. But I'd rather design my own class/level system for the game I want to run than rely on a prebuilt system which doesn't work for the game I want to run. Classless systems are just easier for me to work with for that purpose. Class-based systems rarely explain the design philosophy behind their classes or give instructions on how to modify or build new classes.
>>97251451proof?
>>97252840He has none, he's just shitflinging
>>97252840It's photobash, but hey as long as it triggers the turbo autist he can continue.
>>97229027Damn, this looks like SHIT! Is it AI? You guys have a general for AI sloppa, go post it there.
>>97251405Minmaxing isn't a problem.
>>97251422Why does only one member of the team get to do interesting things?Why is it that a party of all clerics or all druids can easily defeat any level appropriate opposition in the book, but a party of all fighters is helpless against 50% or more of encounters starting from approximately level 5?Why do the classes that are most dependent on magic items to do anything not receive magic items as class features, nor get sufficient skill points to be able to craft them without sacrificing the competencies the game expects them to have?Why didn't the developers make every class of the same level about equal in their ability to affect the world, instead of not doing that?
>>97251495Why are you awarding xp for murder?
>>97251507No, I'm telling the truth, sorry your games suck and you suck.
>>97253915That's only true if mix-maxing only accomplishes the exactly same results as non-min-maxing. That is to say, if minmaxing isn't possible because there's no difference whether you try to do it or not.And it's not really possible in real life to make a game like that. Even in games like chess or checkers there's the first-mover advantage.
>>97253950Sure, Jan.
>>97251356They could be if you sought them out.
>>97251659How much time do you spend explaining to your players your design philosophy? Have you never had a player complain or argue with you about why the class you built should work differently?
>>97248292>>97244688>>97251736>>97251736>>97253991>people are trying to have a discussion despite everything>he just can't help but spam This faggot is more annoying than puckee at this point. Wouldn't be surprised if it is puckee bumping his own thread, actually.
>>97253998Why would puckee say his own art looks like shit?
>>97229027>>>/ic/7826581LolLmao even
>>97254019No such thing as bad publicity. Anons also get addicted to any sort of attention, even negative attention. You know this, there's been fetishizing poor treatment of self memes since before you were born.
>>97254071I guess so, but that poster is also saging the thread everytime he posts, I think he just generally is seething.
>>97253976Yep, you lose.
>>97254019To bump the thread while trying to avoid looking like it's him.
>>97254080>is also sagingAnd you know this how, exactly?
>>97253985>How much time do you spend explaining to your players your design philosophy?None. But they usually understand well enough by the time they finish character creation.>Have you never had a player complain or argue with you about why the class you built should work differently?Sometimes, but usually we're able to reach a satisfying compromise after some light discussion. But class-based systems discourage compromise, so such games are a pain to run.
>>97254119Everytime time I see it posted, the thread didn't bump on the catalogue This poster has a habit of posting that and saging.
>>97229027Ugh, this looks like shit.
>>97253985>How much time do you spend explaining to your players your design philosophy?I just take a classless system, but write up a handful of optional archetypes/templates to pick, or if a player isn't interested in any templates, then I write up a short list of limits and requirements for players to follow. I also include a brief explanation of the premise of the campaign, so players know what to expect and build their characters accordingly. During character advancement or "level-ups", I offer optional trait packages, or allow players to pick their own individual traits within certain simple yet well-defined guidelines. If players have any questions, then I'm glad to give further elaborations. These are things that every good GM should be doing anyways.>Have you never had a player complain or argue with you about why the class you built should work differently?Certainly. I often get requests from players to swap out an ability for a class, or for permission to break a certain limit to achieve a particular concept that makes sense in the setting. Classless systems make these sorts of changes easy, since classless systems often have a clear metric for defining the "value" of different character options, and give warnings or reassurance about what combinations might break or might not the game. Class-based systems are rarely so clear-cut, and are much easier to break by trying to modify, because there are rarely such guidelines.
>>97254490What do you have against wizard apprentices?
>>97254212A lie. You know it because you are the spammer.
>>97244361hes just retarded
>classless systems that allow anyone to dip into anything at the cost of never being great at itThis is how you get metagamers.
>>97262029>game exists, players are allowed to interact with it in any wayThis is how you get metagamers.
>>97262032you can still make it harder to do so by design
>>97262029That has never happened in my games. Maybe you need better players.
>>97262948Yeah, but that would take effort.It's better and easier to just put a sticky note on the table that says "gm decides everything" and tell people to find a new group if they don't like it.That way you can focus on the stories and worldbuilding a lot more.
>>97229027This looks like shit
>>97264083Or you could play with your friends with whom you're on the same wavelength in terms of game expectations.
>>97265510Why wouldn't anyone want to focus on the stories and worldbuilding?
>>97229027Ugh! Where did you find that? This looks like shit!
>>97234704This sounds absolutely miserable to play
>>97266926lol
>>97269431I accept your concession.
>>97234704>thatsbullshitbutibeliveitWeird flex but okay.
>>97266458Turn on your monitor
>>97254824This poster is a good GM.
>>97254824Trash.
>>97229027Doesn't really matter. What options players have available to them isn't particularly determinative of the quality of the game. Rules are 10% of it, but 90% are the energy and fun you bring to it. Either ruleset can be just fine, as long as you and your table are into it.So really? Whatever you've recently found that inspired you to go "oh shit I could a run a game off that."
>>97279110I agree, rulebooks are a complete scam.
>>97280451Tools being mostly interchangeable doesn't mean "don't use tools." It means pick one and do the job, rather than arguing about which one to pick.
>>97279110Stop bumping Puckee threads
>>97280579Make me.
>>97280579I don't know who your friend is, anon. You guys playing hide n seek?
>>97251495The classics were miserable then and are miserable now. It doesn't accurately reflect 90% of the fantasy genre or create a good gaming experience.People enjoyed it back then similar to how people 15000 years ago felt warm in their shallow cave at night - it's better than not having any option. Compared to a warm modern house, or a correctly designed game, that experience was always terrible, people just gaslighted themselves.
>>97253976Concession accepted. Maybe play with adults next time, who sit down with the purpose of having fun as a group and creating interesting gameplay and stories, so they don't intentionally try to ruin the game they want to have fun instead.>"B-But-"No, faggot. You just give the asshole one warning, and you kick him if he doesn't conform to the experience everyone else is trying to have.
>>97229027YUUUUUUUUUUUCK! This looks like SHIT!!!
>>97280564I agree, you should buy an $800 bicycle just to use the handlebar as a walking stick.
>>97284574Who are you quoting?
>>97285049The retard who said you only need 10% of the product that expects money; >>97279110.
>>97285069so you're just mad that he's correct?
It's unfortunate that >>97253936 never got any answers, but the silence is more compelling than anything his opponent could ever say.
>>97229027This looks like shit, dude.
>>97251422Well?
>>97229027>AI art>AI prompt
>>97234704In my experience many GMs have no concept of how minmaxing works and can destroy the balance of their own game worse than the players will. I've only known a few who had credible optimizing chops. One of them, to his credit, TPKed our group multiple times with ridiculous antagonist builds.
>>97285069Sure, if you like. It's your money. But a better analogy would be that the best, $200 walking pole from REI versus a stick from the forest aren't fundamentally different, except that you wanted one or the other. Same for TTRPGS.
>>97234704LMAOOOOOO
>>97288194The analogy I used works perfectly for the idea of not using something you bought compared to not using something you bought.
Spellswords?
>>97294516Aren't a thing in most fantasy.
>>97296402Elves have been there since day one.
>>97296454Then post the Tolkien quote
>>97300674>"The first Elves awoke by Cuiviénen, the Water of Awakening, in the east of Middle-earth... The first Elves awoke under the stars before the rising of the Moon or the Sun."
this looks like shit
>>97229027You can have the best of both with the right system.
>>97296454We were talking about spellswords.
>>97305070Yes. Also known as the original magical warriors aka spellswords.
