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>>97425322
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/97300427/#97305668

>>97427614
That could be your thread project, Anon. Maybe you could put together a little pdf and release Vampire: the Reanimation.

It'll take a bit, but you'll be proud of it when you're done. (:

>>97427725
>boohoohoo reality sucks.
sounds like the vampire experience
muh blood muh beast waaaaaaa

We love Wieck here :)

>new bread midway through the discussion getting interesting
Sadge. Anyway I'd like to say that while what we got in modern society is indeed due to consumerism, Pentex represents the ravenous sort of consumerism that turns people into the spiritually poisoned and unable to enjoy nature and life. Perhaps it doesn't land very well, but I think it pulls enough that you can't ever mistake Pentex for "the good guys"

>>97427734
Being a vampire is fine.
Sounds more like another clan's problem.

>>97427521
Personally, I'd love to see more Wraith and Mummy but I know those two are spooks

>>97427809
Anon, he's just fishing for (You)'s and / or he's autistic as fuck.

>>97427826
Is Vampires under God's own design not indicative by itself of "boohoo reality sucks"? Perhaps not in such blatant commentary as Changeling or Mage but it's a fundamental part of the setting considering Vampires are meant to represent the rich elite who've broken the social compact and prey on their subjects for their own stimulation or economic gain instead of any grand sense of loyalty, progress, or competition

>>97427844
Even if he is, I feel compelled towards posting, sorry anon

>>97427858
Sounds like a 1 or 2-dots flaw.

>>97427846
That Wieck slop premise was abandoned with 1e when people found it far more enjoyable to ignore any "social commentary" in favour of Camarilla social intrigue.

>>97427872
Is Bloodlines Wiekslop? Or is it only partially Wiekslop?

Any advice for a hard-working and dedicated employee trying to get a spot on the board of directors?

>>97427883
Open wide

>>97427864
>Easily ragebaited
Nah, 3 dot flaw. An ST would have a field day making you act up. Alternatively this is just playing Brujah/Ahrouns/Red Caps

>>97427877
Isn't Bloodlines closer to the Vampires in Trenchcoats with Katana's on Rooftops form of playing VtM?

>>97427872
Nah the subtext remains there throughout, but I suppose it's a bit difficult for a third grader to parse

>>97427883
Either getting fucked by banes, wolves, vamps, or murder. A lot of murder

>>97427883
kill a director and wear his skin

>>97427877
Not really. The setting of Bloodlines doesn't fundamentally suck, people don't look at that version of Los Angeles and think "wow, that is such a terrible shit hole, what a nightmare, all I want to do is fix it and make it a better place." They think that Bloodlines and its version of Los Angeles is cool and atmospheric, to the point where some people actually get depression playing it and wish they could live in that era. "Boohoohoo reality sucks" is 100% not a part of the Bloodlines experience, it is the absolute antithesis of Wieckshit like WtA, MtA and CtD.

Wait a minute, that Werewolf the anon posted is just a new Deadlock hero,

>cross-threading arguments
Ew.

>Tell us about a WoD/CofD gameline or book that doesn't get talked about enough? Doesn't need to be a main splat, or even a template at all!
I don't know if it counts as it was printed in a magazine but World of Future Darkness. Vampires in a cyberpunk future seems leagues cooler than any other part of oWoD.

>>97427978
Post something new then

>>97427734
>>97427846
I really, really don't want to get involved in this conversation, since it's more bait that discussion. But the "reality sucks" complaint levied refers to this common thread in games like WtA, MtA, CtD, etc that reality is fundementally flawed or was broken a long time ago, and that is where the problems come from. "My life sucks" is a different thing entirely. Vampires aren't altering the laws of physics, and as a game VtM isn't really concerned with the laws of creation. Hence why some find it jarring hopping from VtM, which is the big draw game, to another oWoD gameline.

I find the "wieckslop" poster annoying because he's taking a somewhat common and reasonable stance and making it absurd and needlessly antagonistic to anyone with different tastes.

Why do I have a feeling that this autistic arguing is coming from our resident autist trying to reinvent his WtA trolling?

>>97427521
>TQ

World of Darkness: Immortals. Fuckin' love that book. It's a nWoD splat neutral book containing a bunch of small, lightweight templates based around different methods for achieving immortality. Blood Bathers, Body Thieves, you've even got some fun fringe ones like people kept eternally young by a spirit in exchange for never leaving a location. The book is excellent for NPCs to spice pretty much any game up with.

>>97428075
oh yeah minior nwod splats are nice. i am also a big fan of skinthieves and the not kindred vampires in the night horrors books

>>97428075
Yo Anon, I'm really happy for you and Imma let you finish, but the Nephilim were the best minor splat of all time

>>97427521
Wraith: the Oblivion, Mummy: the Resurrection, Mummy: the Curse, Deviant: the Renegades, and Promethean: the Created are all underrated and under-discussed.

>>97428325
What is there to discuss?

>>97427910
I remember that episode of Xavier: Renegade Angel.

>>97427754
Real life DuPont told the government to fuck off, they were going to continue to dumb cancer causing chemicals into the ground water, & if the government shut them down, they would change the formula slightly & the government would have to start from scratch to stop the new chemical

BTW, are you also the anon who hates vampire blood sweat cause it makes you vampire fantasy "icky"?

>>97427998
https://files.catbox.moe/hp2055.txt

>>97428075
I always thought it would be fun to run a game of Immortals. Like a small group of various/diverse Immortals decide to meet up at a bar or something every 20 years & chat.

>>97428330
That they are the most provocative and cerebral lines, but nobody gives them a chance.

>>97428325
nah Mummy: the Resurrection is over-discussed on here in relation to how much content the gameline has

>>97427883
The fastest way up the corporate ladder is by climbing a pile of bodies

>>97427900
Bloodlines does let you jump down from a really tall building to land slow motion in a puddle though

>>97428378
well there is that one scene in bloodlines 2

legit the only scene i remember from that game

>>97427883
Unlike all the others telling you to listen to your inner wolf (AKA inner retard), I'll tell you to think of a way to maximize company growth and make the shareholders happy. Murder is easy, any idiot can do it. opening up a new subsidiary and using it to advance the corporation's goals? That's how you do it. Look into AI, I'm sure there's plenty of things you could do with it to make everyone a bit more miserable and further the company's goals. Use your brain anmd don't be afraid to scerw others over, the board isn't a place for the stupid or the weak.

>>97428339
Anon that's a blatant bait post, don't feed the trolls.

>>97428330
Well ill talk about DC Mummies.

One thought I had would be that the Mummy, created a phylactery using some notable relic of America, then the Earthbound cult also used it (unknowingly) as the reliquary for the Earthbound. The Mummy & Earthbound are now bonded to the same object & cant exactly destroy it without destroying themselves. Also the Mall was constructed by the Freemason Cult to be a very minor Web of Faith

>>97428365
Can't speak to Mummy, but my impression was that Wraith is a hard sell because of the shadow pvp aspect and also the whole premise is more detached from our world. Promethean seems like it restricts players to a specific goal, and usually that goal isn't "fight big bad guy" so it doesn't appeal to the normies.

>>97428400
It has to be a blend of the two. Simple merit isn't enough to get people into positions of power any more in the 21st century, especially not in a corporation that's secretly an apocalypse cult. Show that you're competent but also show that you're willing to go the extra mile to eliminate your competition and get what you want. If you have the former but lack the latter, you're just going to be eternally exploited middle management. If you have the latter but lack the former, you're just going to be turned into a cannon fodder fomor. Only the most capable cut-throats are allowed in the big leagues.

Here's what bending over and letting a greater Bane straight from the Atrocity Realm fill all my holes with barbs and snares of Wyrmish energy taught me about B2B sales

>>97428419
The problem with Promethean is that all at once youre supposed to be unique one off creations that arent completely human, but there's enough of these things floating around to have factions & subfactions. But also, you cant stay in one place or shit goes sideways. So in the end its about being a hobo & constantly switching up the location, the NPCs, etc. Its a lot of work. Sure, the ST can construct a road trip style campaign but that can easily go off track. If they rejiggered Disquiet to allow for sitting still it would have more range

>>97428417
I'm not sure that poster is exactly good faith either, given how he's still seething about an unrelated argument from the previous thread. Dude's just looking for things to be pissed off about.

>>97428447
Nah it's fair. As soon as one argument died down another sprung up. Feels like one person dedicated to bitching about a similar thing given that the wieckslop poster favors vampire

you ever had one of them magical items in your game? what it do

>>97428189
My man. I could gush about so much stuff in the night horrors books. Really good concept in general "here's a bunch of antagonists for your games, go wild." Inferno is another great book. No frills, no nonsense, just honest to badness demons and rules for their toadies.

>>97428257
Care to elaborate as to why or?

>>97428355
Absolutely. Granted, some of the immortals in that book get their immortality through very fucked up methods, so depending on the comp you'd need to commit to being fairly nasty people. Not to say that's a problem in a "World of Darkness", but someone might want to play a good boy Purified spirit guru type and that could clash with the outright serial killer that is most Blood Bathers.

But yeah as PCs there's a lot of fun things you can do, especially since while they don't have many uber-showy supernatural powers, most really do take the term "immortal" seriously. Had a friend that made a high exp blood bather he never got to play, an immortal Cossack that bathes in the blood of his enemies and fights with reckless abandon, because he knows if he dies, it's temporary as long as he gets his monthly blood bathing in. After the Czar was overthrown he spent the entire rule of the Soviet Union terrorizing hinterland villages and military outposts. Fun character, wish he had a chance to play him.

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>>97428478
Mostly minor stuff, like blade weapons that deal aggravated damage to kindred or another template.
There was this salubri guy with an amulet that prevent blood magic being used against him but in the end I underestimated the PCs and he went down fast.

>>97428504
>Care to elaborate as to why or?
A really nice take on demon blooded. Also, you can use all the weird demon powers without being an actual demon.

>>97428473
A lot of people like vampire, that doesn't mean they're all the wieckslop shitposter. The posting styles are also very different, I doubt it's all one person. Besides which the guy who's still pissy about last thread's argument was being an ass the entire time. He's either looking to argue to argue or is so upset he isn't being objective. After all, he bit on bait as stupid obvious as "big companies, like the ones pentex is based on, are a force for good in the world".

I mean hell if we wanna engage in wild speculation what if it's the same poster arguing with himself to drag others in?

>>97428519
>>97428257
Which book?

>>97428535
>big companies, like the ones pentex is based on, are a force for good in the world
Is this wrong though? It depends on how you define the world, I guess.

>>97428545
Demon Storyteller's Guide. Chapter 5.

>>97428550
Personally, yeah I'd call it incorrect. Now Pentex is still an exaggeration because it makes the evil that large companies engage in all-encompassing and the result of a cosmic force. Pentex is on some "do oil spills on purpose to make more banes, even if oil spills are objectively bad for business" timing. The evil that is done by megacorps IRL is more the result of extremely perverse incentive structures in publicly traded companies combined with the general apathy that comes from being entirely removed from the consequences, horrors, and fallout of the fucked-up things you and your people are doing.

Now does this mean that companies as a concept are beyond redemption, or that a company has never done good things for the world? Absolutely not, and I don't think WtA at its most deranged treehugger would say that.

>>97428615
>The evil that is done by megacorps IRL is more the result of extremely perverse incentive structures in publicly traded companies combined with the general apathy that comes from being entirely removed from the consequences, horrors, and fallout of the fucked-up things you and your people are doing.
But thanks to them, the majority of humanity has access to clean water, food from all over the planet, shelter with temperature regulation and access to the sum total of worldwide human knowledge. Life has never been better for the average human and it's largely thanks to these corporations. If the "perverse incentive structures" that keep them afloat ever disappear, most of the luxuries that you currently enjoy will probably evaporate, never to be seen again.

Strawmen like Pentex is what you get when people start believing the lies that corporations are evil.

wait a minute, I recognize this bait. this is the technocracy shitposter reskinning his argument.

>>97428478
I got a klaive :D

Ignore the shitty bait, please.

>>97428550
It isn't black and white in the real world. No doubt modern capitalism has made your life better in some ways but the way the rat grind is structured and the way companies want to monopolize your free time and wallet isn't very good. Nevermind they donate to causes that allow them to do dangerous stupid shit to others for profit chasing. Pentex is comparatively rather black, I'm sure it does a moderate amount of good for humanity seeing as how the Red's are a few seconds away from Total Human Death Now and that they provide good services, but those services and your oil and all that shit comes at even more of a price to the planet as Pentex is malicious, whereas real like companies are just incompetent because they ultimately only care about money instead of doing the right thing. It's a shareholder issues, it's illegal to not make more money for shareholders for example.

>>97428689
To be fair, all of that happened before we got the modern megacorp trying to monopolize your soul, peddle you AI, poison your food, etc. Corporations maybe had a golden period you could claim they weren't actively trying to Jew customers though this period ended somewhere around the mid 2000s I think

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There's no world where Yeren should be fighting without at least thirty mooks between them and the opposing Garou, right?

>>97428732
Good boy!

>>97428504
>My man. I could gush about so much stuff in the night horrors books.
please do! i am mostly a vampire guy so i would be interesting in hearing what might be some favorites from the other books

>>97428778
Is it a single Yeren versus a single Garou or a pack of Garou? I'd imagine they'd have their own group of goons yeah

that reminds me. do we know what happens when you try to embrace a mockery breed?

>>97428785
>Words said shortly before rage is rolled
>>97428535
Not that anon obvious but might be schizophrenia, though I engage in a little bit of it from time to time. Anyway, VtM firsters are alright in my book, everyone's free to appreciate what games they like the most. Everyone likes different things after all, but it does feel needlessly inflammatory to go on about Wieck and how they wished Werewolf had more to do with popular culture and folklore. though to be fair I do get their point, but then Werewolves would be fundamentally not very interesting and too similar to playing an entire race of Gangrels. I think werewolf adapts enough of what it does while staying unique and that's fine. Perhaps too different from Vampire on purpose, but still

>>97428778
depends on how rare Yeren are in your setting is it still 2004 and Yeren are rare near prototype beings who's potential limits aren't even fully explored yet (highest one only reached rank 3 so far) or is it 2020+ in which case the second generation of yeren would be young adults now already

>>97428872
Do you not know how Yeren reproduce?

>>97428778
>>97428872
>>97428884
Better question, would a high regen Garou in Crinos beat a Yeren with Savage Genitalia?

>>97428884
Anally?

>>97428976
A Yeren subjects an aspirant to a week-long hazing ritual, immersing the aspirant in a whirlwind of non-stop debauchery that weakens the Gauntlet to the point where their partying leads them in and out of the Umbra, with each unconscious act of stepping sideways fusing more of the aspirant's depravity to his flesh, until it passes a threshold and he goes through a First Change and becomes a Yeren.

>>97429054
This seems like a good trade deal

>>97429269
It's not quite that simple. When I say debauchery, I mean debauchery. It's a week of drunk, drugged-up violence, likely involving murder and rape, and the candidate mustn't engage in the act for any reason other than enjoying it for its own sake. All of the cruelty and greed must be mindless and self-indulgent, with no higher ambition, not even to become Yeren. The change doesn't take in anyone who doesn't 100% commit themselves to the depravity, which usually leads to their Yeren sponsor killing them for being such a disappointment.

>>97429367
If you know what you're getting into you may as well enjoy it. Idk, if I'm willingly damning myself for eternity to be a degenerate furry psychopath you may as well all in. I suppose it's hard to imagine someone willingly engaging in psychopath behavior like that for it's own sake unless they're already insane

>>97429516
You need to be a Patrick Bateman, Jordan Belfort or Jeffrey Epstein kind of guy from the very start.

>>97429540
I'd assume any Pentex wagie getting considered for sponsorship will be that type of dude anyway, but yes that does sound complicated

>>97428778
Can you embrace mockery breeds without turning them insane?

>>97429658
All of the mockery breeds have the same Rage which makes the Beast unmanageable, so I would assume no.

Imagine needing Rage.
This post made by the Ananasi gang.

>>97429953
Imagine getting mogged by anyone with rage, couldn't be me

Aisling Sturbridge, High Regent of NYC, leader of the Josians and the High Questor (anti-mage and anti-infernalism archon factions, respectively) has 9 Willpower.
Vlad "Mother Fucking Dracula" Tepes has 8 Willpower.

>So why does every Tremere neonate have 10 Willpower?

>>97430188
As the epically intelligent wizard clan, its primary audience are power fantasists, character optimisers and people who self-insert as the smartest guy in the room.

>>97430188
Those guys have done big magic & lived dangerous lives which has eroded their willpower. Many Tremere start iff strong but loose a bit as they go. This is also why the Pyramid is a bit... cavalier with their neonates lives.

Important question
How much drugs do you need to be resistant to the supernatural

>>97430229
all of them
t. Ecstatic

>>97430229
Depends on the drug and depends on what you're trying to resist.

>>97430188
>Why does [PC] have 10 Willpower
Main Character Syndrome, you are my specialz
>Why do anons act like their PC has 10 Willpower
Main character syndrome and it's the only thing that matters anyway as everyone thinks erroneously they have 10 willpower irl. Realistically I feel like your character should have willpower relative to their discipline (not the superpowers) and their ability to stay composed. Like if you're playing a murdergooner, you should have low willpower unless you're choosing to engage in murder for reasons that aren't it just makes your dick hard. Leadership should generally have high enough willpower and self control so it's not entirely alien for those and your chosen characters to have high willpower

Can a ferectoi awaken as a mage?

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>>97430188
>anti-infernalism
Here's your problem, bro.

>>97430283
>Realistically I feel like your character should have willpower relative to their discipline (not the superpowers) and their ability to stay composed
Not really. "Willpower" isn't associated with self-discipline, that's entirely the role of the Self Control virtue. Willpower is entirely about Stubbornnes and Ego. A willpower 10 character should be absolutely INSUFFERABLE with how impossible it is to get them to change their mind after they decide something...
So pretty accurate to the average wod character honestly.

>>97430362
I would assume they'd immediately become a Nephandus even if they could awaken right?

>>97430283
nWoD did it like that

>>97430079
Imagine all your Rage falling you because some Thaumaturge levitates you out of the way

>>97430188
Neonates have something to prove & so they have better willpower

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Why are werewolfs like this?

>>97430537
She throated my klaive til I Rage

>>97430537
This must have either been written ironically or before it caught on, that's quite funny.
>>97430482
>Garou seething in impotent rage from getting lifted
I can see it. Woofs are kind of huge jobbers in a lot of the ability descriptions you read up anyway

>>97430546
>garou gf will never throat you
Fuck this wyrm-filled hellscape.

/wodg/ has made me internally sigh and prepare myself for the worst whenever a player says that they want to play a Tremere.

>>97430612
I doubt most Tremere are powergaming chuds out to ruin your game
>>97430569
>he enjoys getting beat up by women

>>97430431
I suppose so. Basically a Widderslainte? Mechanically the same in origin if it happens, though fomori have innate powers.

Though I was at first wondering if it’s ever possible.

>>97429953
>Being a s*ifter
Lmao, imagine not being Wyrm's top guy.

>>97430627
Well, I suppose a Fomori that's 100% bane, even one that's stable like a Ferectoi, isn't a human and logically they wouldn't be able to awaken. That's on top of already being kind of a spiritual entity. This is a gay explanation though so I'd prefer to just say they can awaken anyway but go full Nephandus like a Widderslainte. I wouldn't say it's mechanically the same origin though, Fomori and especially high rank fomori already have some reality warping bullshit going on

>>97430569
Garou women only date mage men

>>97430658
This would be a terrible idea for all parties involved

>>97430229
If I can tell the difference then I clearly need more LSD

>>97430555
There's just a ton of threats that get nulled by telekinesis. Sure, if they have ranged weapons or powers, its not that strong but given how melee focused 90% of Garou are, especially Lupines in a VtM game its easy mode.

>>97430692
Can't they roll rage to just say no?

>>97430723
nta. nope only for mental powers (as in powers that affect them mentally) and even then succesful rage roll is not a "no" it's only a +2 diffculty for the vampire according to the dark age werewolf book

>>97430362
Technically yes, but it's not pleasant for them. Being possessed, they automatically lose the ability to grow with seekings until they get un-possessed and lose 1 dot of Arete for every 3 points of fomori powers.
They'd have to have a very high starting arete or be a Very weak fectori to not instantly un-awaken, but it's possible.
>>97430431
That's not how that works. Nephandi are a Very specific thing. Being possessed doesn't invert your avatar. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, can make a mage into a fomori other than willingly choosing to complete a caul or being the reincarnation of a previous nephandus.
I imagine a fectori wouldn't hesitate to go through the caul though.

>>97430779
>Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, can make a mage into a fomori
*Nephandi
I meant a Nephandi.

>>97430723
Unless there's something I dont know about, no. Its a physical interaction & unless they have some way to grab on to something to leverage their strength they have nothing. Note that its not like telekinesis does much to hurt them. It just makes them impotent. Once it wears off you had better have killed them or run for your life.

As the helpless werewolf drifts up into the air, rendered utterly helpless by the superior intelligence and mystical mastery of the thaumaturge, totally impotent and incapable of doing anything whatsoever, absolutely at the mercy of his captor and made completely harmless in every possible way, all he is able to do is whisper...

Halo of the Sun.

>>97430827
Halo of the Sun only hurts out to 20ft. The mangy Lupine is farther than that up in the air. Sure the flash might be very scary but that's about all they got, a werewolf "Solar Flare"

>>97430893
It was just to make the point that werewolves have Gifts, unless you're just running them as Lupines without any sort of magic. Gifts that allow them to cling to surfaces, Gifts that allow them to compel others to their bidding, Gifts that can cause vampires to frenzy, Gifts that can grant them ranged attacks and even if they don't have a Gift for that particular situation, all they need to do is step sideways with the aid of a reflective surface that they probably have on their person and if they have the right Gift, they might not even need that.

>>97431018
Putting gifts on anything other than a more boss-like encounter for a Werewolf other than basic gifts is some dickhead ST behavior I'd say. Some of those are basically I win buttons

>>97430779
Aren't Ferectoi already incredibly possessed to the point that they're not really human?

>>97430679
Well, one party is known for not thinking things through while the other party thinks too much about things and gets the wrong idea. Sounds perfect.

>>97431033
If one of the players is playing a Tremere thaumaturge who can reliably levitate any dangerous close quarters combatant away from them with enough speed and over a great enough distance to render that combatant a non-threat, I'd say that it is time for the ST to start pulling out the big guns.

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>TQ
CyberRealm. There's all these 'pocket dimensions' of World of Darkness but the CyberRealm is spread out across like 4 books and two gamelines, a touch more if you want the Japanese flavour (and you should, it's a Cyberpunk world).
There's a cyberpunk world over a pit of refuse ideas that you go to when you die (so death matters, but you can reverse Dante's Inferno your way out of it), all the Shifters have put their differences aside because it doesn't matter in there so you can finally run your cross-shifter party, all the sci-fi stuff that's spread across the books can seem commonplace, and the Umbra stops being a deliberately un-understandable but still integral part of woofs and co and starts being CYBERSPACE which is accessible in a few ways. The Ananasi even get to fill the role of corpos, being recognised as the spiders that exist in the upper spires of the hive city that is this realm.

There's mage stuff too but I don't fuck with Mage, those lot can be over there doing their own thing.

>>97431037
that's not totally a no go we have fomori-like spirit in mage called owlshards and someone who is currently being possessed by one can awaken and another mage with spirit 3+ can try to yeet a spirit out of you (getting rid of a spirit yourself is harder)

but awakening is already pretty rare if you are just a random doing non mage things and being a fomori probably makes it even more harder and rarer which is probably why anon said technically yes

>>97431058
Fair enough yeah
>>97431068
Why would Woofs have any interest in this place?

>>97431158
glasswalker either have their ancestral homeland in the umbra there or it's adjacent to it. void engineers sometimes send personal they don't like and want to get rid of there with the missions of keeping the glass walkers out of their own ancestral homeland and then watch as they get swarmed by a entire tribe of woofs

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>>97427521
Chronicles 2e had some cool ideas crafted as chronicle backdrops. I'm also partial to the spirit-choked Tokyo where the Strix are working alongside the Werewolves to keep the other spirits somewhat corraled in a move that totally won't backfire on the Uratha

>>97431018
I addressed that. 90% of werewolves are just melee beasts. All Lupines are. I specifically said there are ranged options they might have, bit it's still not very likely. If they step sideways they're still going to fall

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>>97431215
notably, the Lodge's totem is possibly on the path to becoming as powerful as the Firstborn of Father Wolf

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>>97431018
>clinging to walls

No but seriously when you think 'werewolf' are you envisioning shooting porcupine spines out of your wrists or whatever?

>>97431269
>No but seriously when you think 'werewolf' are you envisioning [Gift]
What does this matter to the conversation at hand?

>>97431292
don't mind it's just the resident weaver/anasi fan

>>97431292
It's called a tangent, it's a pretty core part of human conversation. You'll get it eventually anon, I believe in you.

>>97431292
muh pop culture

>>97431269
When I imagine Werewolf gift I imagine the type of funny shit that lets you immediately atomize your local city block (on a good roll, granted)
>>97431292
It's related
>>97431221
What if they take out their fetishes (actually just a gun) and start shooting at you?

ITT: Why oWoD cross-splat doesn't work.

>>97431452
oWoD works best with limited cross-splatting. Everyone who is relevant is too busy to actually deal with other splats except for a blue moon since they all have their own struggles, so while you CAN see a rank 4 or something Garou who can turn your city block into ash he's unlikely to do it or bother with you since you're just small fry. Likely for a Garou you might eventually run into a lick who can levitate you or raingun a silver spike into your cranium but the odds that he cares enough to do that, realizes you're a Werewolf, or isn't busy doing other things is pretty low. Same shit with running into a Mage. I kind of prefer this interpretation that some of these can co-exist but everyone is too ignorant of each other to care

>>97431475
strongly disagree. keep them separated.

>>97431452
>aaagh help me sire my vitae is everywhere
I think werewolf works as intended cross-splat

>>97431489
Randomly doomping a mid-high tier character from another splat can be interesting, I just think it should be done to not detract from the main splat you're playing.

>>97431386
In my experience (& this is anecdotal I understand) most garou use melee weapons or their claws. A few glasswalkers use guns, true, but a garou with a gun & a mortal with a gun aren't all that more dangerous unless they are looking to optimize. And there's less chance of a garou having a gun in the first place.

>>97428786
Sure. From Grim Fears, a Changeling Night Horrors book you have a lot of individual antagonists that are very fun. Marquise Tristesse is a weird fae creature that can absorb the powers of any supernatural she eats. Any. Disciplines, Gifts, you name it, it's on the table. If she can eat someone with those powers, she can steal them. Like a cannibalistic Rogue, which makes her an excellent antagonist in any gameline, not just changeling. She can take the form of either a woman or a great, horrible spider.

The same book also has Ybalashi, a True Fae trapped in a lamp Genie-style, she's like an androgynous, far more subtle version of the genie from Wishmaster. Utterly malevolent behind her approachable veneer, extremely bitter she got stuck in that lamp. Makes for a classic genie set-up with a neat enough twist to things. The only winning move is to not play her game.

Werewolf the Forsaken's Night Horrors: Shunned by the Moon has so many hits. Forsaken in general has so many hits as far as fun antagonists are concerned The Geryo are a personal favorite of mine. Basically, they were the first crack at making Werewolves, and it didn't go right. Too much spirit. Not enough person. They're glitchy in the worst way, but also very strong. So daddy threw them in a dark, dark pit never to see the light of day again but guess what? They got out. Worse, they can actually "infect" werewolves with their shitty code, warping them into mindless wolf-thralls. The book gives some example Geryo, my favorite is Zahakeryon, who was the dupe that got convinced to be the jailor for his fellow Geryo, unaware he was a prisoner too. He likes to put things in jail, his MO is to roll into an area, call it his territory, start throwing whoever or whatever pisses him off into his supermax spirit world jail, then once it's full up and he has nothing else to do, just abandons it.

>>97431522
That presumes the table in question likes that splat. Which in my experience is rarely the case, at least in oWoD.

>>97431605
>Just shove a random changeling into a VtM game
Literally cannot go wrong, the less they understand the better

>>97431591
> Ybalashi
I was pretty sure that was a guy.
The GodMachine must have changed the past again.

>>97431763
eh, Ybalashi is an androgynous fae, he/she/it probably lacks sexual characteristics entirely just to achieve maximum levels of androgyny.

>>97430364
>Here's your problem, bro.
Nah, quick and easy power through infernalism is a common symptom of a weak-willed person.

>>97430364
>>97432142
Does the Ratkin have any actual chance to win here?

>>97431269
Depends on the type of werewolf. Outside of WoD/CofD, I could see it working if you lean into them being cursed monsters.

>>97430779
>That's not how that works.
This really pisses me off when I see it. There are so many retarded STs that treat becoming a nephandus like something you can get infected with or make characters spontaneously transform into for being "Too Evil"(Every fucking verbena would be a nephandi if that was how it worked).
That's like an ST suddenly making your character turn into a garou because you got a scratch from one, it makes no fucking sense in the setting.

>>97432151
Depends. There are a shit ton of otherwise weak spirits that look pretty metal, but if it's a full demon it get's into the particulars of what Kind of demon.
"Demon" in classic wod is a long list of entirely unrelated types of supernaturals. Some are weak as shit and could be repelled by a stern talking too(wraith demonics), while others could eat Incarnae like candy.

>>97432164
>find some random hook up at a bar
>she's bitey and aggressive
>turn into a murder furry the next day
haha oh no that would be terrible

>>97432181
I'll pray for Ratbro then so he can survive to cull the human population with some super plague like Covid(1)

>>97429269
You have to be the kind of guy whose soul is so utterly rancidly black already that God's light cringes away from you in horror in order to be considered for becoming a Yeren. Anything less and you won't make the cut (and your Weren't patron will kill/rape/eat you and not necessarily in that order).

>>97432414
Electrochemistry — YEAH that's me baby. Sigma-pilled, straight up.

>>97432427
Harry Dubois would either somehow fucking win WoD or he'd end up dead in record time because of all the Skills going peak schizo within mere moments and there is no inbetween.
Funnily enough, Electrochemistry in canon would HATE Yeren - it likes to have fun yeah, but even it has limits and shit it finds appallingly awful. Yeren cross all of those and then some.

>>97432435
Yeah, yeah he would. Either all or nothing with that guy, immediately uncovering a Camarilla plot or getting murdered for getting too snippy with some freaky looking guy he thought was a foreigner instead of a Nosferatu.
Electrochemistry would hate all of Pentex but he's Harry's hypeman so I think he'd tell Harry (erroneously, as all blips tend to me) that Harry can totally become a Yeren and he's totally like Patrick Bateman
Now I'm sad Disco is left up to fan projects with the way the group splintered again.

>>97427521
So I tried to run vtm and I ran a small plot of a crazy elder that was 0 humanity that was locked away but the players opened it because they thought they were awesome just because they had guns and were all newly embraced 13th gens(they are very new to wod and came in from dnd). It was supposed to be just for display in my thought process but despite my warnings the elder became lose and I ran it as he ran away ignoring them but the decided to hunt it down in the woods and only one player reacted by running away, one of them got ahead and well I ran it as the elder easily killing him and drained him dry so I thought one death was a good enough warning. They decided this was the main plot and werent detered by what it could do so they went in the woods trying to kill it but by the end of it, they kept fumbling until it killed another one again and then one of my players rage quit and told me why was this not balanced expecting I would use a CR calculator or something then forever holds contempt at me because I ran it this way. Am I in the wrong here? I am also new to V20 and I mostly learned how to play from discord servers.

>>97431269
There were plenty of other options there aside from ranged attacks, and I think that unleashing a terrible howl that fills the target with bestial rage and robs them of any sense of strategy is a pretty 'werewolf' thing to do. Bellowing a command and filling the target with such terror that they're compelled to obey you is also a pretty 'werewolf' thing to do.

I think it's silly to pretend that doing anything aside from being a mindless melee monster is the antithesis of being a werewolf. Even if you're playing Vampire the Masquerade and your werewolves are Lupines and you're ignoring the existence of Gifts, the generic "Elder Shapeshifter" statblock for a Lupine still gives them Obfuscate and Dominate and all Lupines have Celerity. Even an "Adolescent Lupine" in its wolfman form has Dexterity 6 and Celerity 3, which the Thaumaturge will have to beat in initiative before he's able to levitate them into the air to helplessly float.

>>97432483
So, based on what you've told us, your only real mistake was potentially not communicating to your players just how different VtM is to your typical D&D style game, which seems to be where their huge disconnect is. It sounds to me like they were expecting a typical fantasy adventure danger curve where they fight enemies more or less appropriate for their level. You really need to break the players out of that D&D mindset for VtM. In general, knowing your players is so important to running an enjoyable game. It's why playing with friends is ALWAYS preferable to playing with randoms. Were these randos or did you know them?

But would I say you were in the wrong? From what you've told us, no. You warned them and gave them several outs (having the elder wight flee), but they continued to pursue a vastly superior enemy even after it had already taken out one member of the coterie. It sounds to me like they were used to a fairly typical modern D&D soft-rails low lethality adventure story, rather than how harsh and dangerous it is to be a young vampire of weak blood. Even still, throwing a tantrum over some character deaths when they didn't even approach the "encounter" tactically is, I would say, uncalled for.

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This is what glass walkers look like and they see nothing wrong with it.

>>97432683
I would consider them my friends but the one who got angry was a wargamer and used to making every combat fair and balanced. He would rather DM and i do know he has issues being powerless as a player so he prefers to DM more. The rest of them kinda forgave me and decided to go again knowing now how the game is like this, I just lost passion from his anger at me and I wanted to know if I am doing it wrong and how I can improve

How to play as a good guy Thallain?

>>97432669
to add to this before v20 celerity used to just beat the initative of non celerity users at default

>>97431591
oh fuck yeah anon those really sound awesome and i think i can really use Marquise Tristesse in my next game so thank you

Do the dice pool increases from celerity, fortitude, and potence also apply to the use of other disciplines, e.g. in the stamina + melee roll for Armor of Caines Fury?

>>97433359
yes for celerity and potence but no for Fortitude because the first two add to every roll while Fortitude only adds to soak
>Each point of Celerity adds one die to every Dexterity-related dice roll. (cutting off a bit here)

>System: Each dot that the vampire has in Potence adds one die to all Strength-related dice rolls. Further, the player can spend one blood point and change his Potence dice into an equal number of automatic successes to all Strength-related rolls for the turn. In melee and brawling combat, successes from Potence (either rolled or automatic) are applied to the damage roll results

>A character’s rating in Fortitude adds to his Stamina for the purposes of soaking normal damage (bashing and lethal). A character with this Discipline may also use his dots in Fortitude to soak aggravated damage, though Kindred cannot normally soak things like vampire bites, werewolf claws, magical effects, fire, sunlight, or massive physical trauma. See p. 272, for further details on soaking and damage
all 3 quotes v20 corebook

>>97432151
He just needs to jump into the umbra & call all of his friends. A handful of killers with those special ratkin daggers can turn the tide

>>97433379
Ah, in V20DA its different:
System: A character’s Fortitude rating adds to all her Stamina-based dice pools, including her soak rating for bashing and lethal damage. A vampire may use her Fortitude dice as a soak pool against aggravated wounds,
which vampires typically have no recourse against. Once per turn, she may spend a blood point to automatically soak her Fortitude in damage, instead of adding it to her
Stamina. This can be used to soak aggravated damage as well, but not damage from fire or sunlight.

>>97433842
to be fair i assume this was always the intention but v20's corebook has some errors in it

the no sunlight and fire debuff in dav20 however will always be weird to me

>>97432669
>I think that unleashing a terrible howl that fills the target with bestial rage and robs them of any sense of strategy is a pretty 'werewolf' thing to do.
Post five examples of werewolves doing that in pop culture or folklore.
>Bellowing a command and filling the target with such terror that they're compelled to obey you is also a pretty 'werewolf' thing to do.
Post five examples of werewolves doing that in pop culture or folklore.

Here's a hint: You can't.

The only common superpower that werewolves exhibit in pop culture and folklore is the ability to transform. Anything more than that is an invention of Werewolf the Apocalypse and not based in any sort of collective perception of werewolves. This is why werewolves should have never gotten their own game, pop culture and folklore don't provide nearly as much material for them as they do for vampires.

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>>97433857
I think that part only applies to the automatic successes

>>97433857
I like the idea that there should be no power that let's you resist fire and especially not sunlight.

>>97433942
Again, no one cares about your popslop tangents

>>97433942
Could you post five examples of vampires fleshcrafting people in pop culture or folklore? What the fuck kind of argument is that?

WtA fans once again prove that they're unable to accept criticism of their game. No one's allowed to have an opinion other than them, apparently.

>>97434126
The local troll's autistic platonic ideal for World of Darkness has no originality whatsoever. There's a reason he's compared to an Autumn Person

>autumn person
>looks inside
>severely autistic

>>97434161
well autistic people in wod canonically have weak souls

>>97433942
Who cares? WtA has powers that do if you dont like it make your own game.

>>97432669
There ways to get around some of that. But you are correct. Im mostly talking about the most reasonably advantageous action a vampire could possibly take without going too far into white room optimization if youre a guy with Movement of the Mind 5 & a Garou/Lupine wants to use your neck like a chew toy you cannot reasonably take him in a straight fight. They can burn Rage to resist mental control, it takes a lot to kill them so you arent going to get them in just one round & live through the next. So, when in down, float them

>>97434146
There's a reason he's compared to an Autumn Person
I take great offense to that, Sunday Friend does not deserve such a harsh comparison

Fellow Hermetics, how good are your grappling skills?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhaOrK1cmXQ

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>>97434161
This is why C20 was wrong for making Changeligns an autism allegory, autists are actually extremely banal

>>97434437
All of those behaviors are a lot more whimsical than believing in magic woo woo, which is how White Wolf writers define "wonder".

>>97434437
shots at coin collectors and bug enthusiasts seem a little mean-spirited
>>97434551
I think part of the Autumn Person condition is supposed to be the imposition you place on others with your banal focus. Which is mentioned there in the text btw

>we're still doing the "You dislike what I like/like what I dislike? REEEEEEEEEEE" routine

Why do you keep biting on it? Is it so hard to just acknowledge people have different tastes and that's okay?

Start a blog if you don't want people to reply.

>>97434126
this entire discussion is stupid, but being perfectly fair, a shitload of what the Tzimisce do was lifted from the Necroscope series.

>>97434437
Autism is a mix of high banal and high glamour depending on special interest though ngl

>>97434676
Necroscope is pretty based though so I wouldn't say it's a big deal

>>97434645
you're the softest one here by a longshot

>>97434645
Because everyone who knows how to do that shit left a long time ago.

>>97432787
Honestly? This stuff does sometimes just happen. Friend of mine recently told me about a game someone else was running that ran into a similar issue. I think the game was Battletech, or some other tactics/strategy heavy mech RPG. Two of his players fancy themselves strategic masterminds, I know this, because they take every board game night way too seriously to the point you have to be sweating as hard as they are if you want to have a chance to win. Now to be fair, I know one of them actually plays a strategy game competitively, so I'm not saying they're necessarily bad, just sweaty and maybe not AS clever as they think they are. Anyway, the GM set up an encounter and they got this idea in their minds that the right plan was to blitz the enemy. It backfired horribly, got their mechs scrapped, and they suddenly stopped wanting to play the game. Shit happens, it's important to not let it demoralize you.

Anyway, if you did anything wrong, it had to do with setting expectations and communicating that VtM is not a game of balanced combat encounters, but of being a small shark in a vast ocean (at least, a fledgeling/neonate game is). I dunno if you plan on starting entirely fresh or just moving on with replacement characters for the dead members of the coterie, but perhaps lean more into the social end of things for the next few sessions. Get people invested in the local Kindred, the rumors being whispered around Elysium, flesh out the place they're in and let the players decompress with some low stakes plots that help build atmosphere. If they want a certain amount of combat, throw trash-tier Sabbat at them, or maybe Hunters. I say maybe Hunters because in oWoD, they're so fragile that the best way to make them an actual threat is to have them fight in a very indirect, unsatisfying for the players way. Save reintroducing the feral elder for if the game turns into a long one, let them get their get-back once they've developed the skills to actually get it.

>>97434680
High banality is certainly true. Being around someone with severe autism is emotionally draining at times. My job at the moment is to deal with children who have special educational needs, and sometimes it's amazing. But then you'll come across people who have a limited capacity for free will, to their detriment. Those times are not so great.

>>97432787
tell him that vampires fight with sexiness and manipulation so he cooks up a slutreador instead

>>97434773
>My job at the moment is to deal with children who have special educational needs
I'm so sorry

>>97434804
No, no. It's actually pretty great. I do like my job, it's just really demotivating when you meet someone who absolutely requires help but doesn't want it. Just...speaking to a brick wall really.

>>97434645
>Is it so hard to just acknowledge people have different tastes and that's okay?
No, but that is almost never the issue. This shit always, Always starts with an idiot proclaiming "X need to be like THIS and all of you must conform to what I Like/Dislike!".
Writers doing that is exactly what took wod from D&D's competitor to a niche game no one ever heard of.

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I'm glad Black Tooth massacred all the stinky yeenoids. They had it coming.

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It's spider brainstorm time again.

So Vampires have Hunger Dice, causing them to solve problems with violence when they fail and have no blood.
Woofs have Rage Dice, causing them to solve their problems with violence when they fail and have high rage.
Hunters have Desperation Dice, making them take greater risks in pursuit of their quarry when things aren't going their way.

What would the Ananasi have? They have a blood pool but unlike the leeches they don't get all mad without it and don't need it to live. What should their special shtick be, and what should cause it to increase/decrease? Maybe something to represent their apathetic or withdrawn nature, making them more cold and calculated?

>>97434977
Something like "influential dice" would make the most sense given how Ananasi has hive mind of sorts with their children.
The more influence she has on you the more competent your character is at the cost of lacking independence when Big Spider™ makes her demands like "I NEED that fucker to survive and I don't care how you go about it.

>>97434977
Why do you want a fifth edition version of Ananasi?

>>97434773
What about autists like me who are just aspies that hate modernity?
>>97434804
>>97434823
I get that, yeah. I'm sure it can be rewarding but sometimes you'll just run into something that ruins your hope in humanity

>>97435141
>What about autists like me who are just aspies that hate modernity?
i am sorry but acording to white wolf you are just a lesser being and also your soul does not have autism

demons can also take over your body as if you are a recently deceased corpse

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>>97435141
>spoilers

>>97435163
praying to get my own mummy bpd

>>97435221
well even in Resurrection you can higher the chances of that by having someone cast the (new and improved) spell of life on you

so know any guys who seem like the might secretly know egyptian necromancy?

>>97435219
stop being so f*ckin rude

>>97435141
I'm sure you're fine. Trouble makers are much worse than those who lack intellectual capacity. Their are children who simply want to fuck with other people because they operate under the paradigm of Fear and Security. This is because they lack fundamental emotional capacities. They need supreme emotional and institutional power over others, even if that means subjecting themselves to hypocrisy, lies, defiance and a constant need for attention from people who do not care for them. They want complete security over their environment, which to them necessitates that others are in a constant state of fear, distress or annoyance. It's not a matter of upbringing, it's a matter of capacity. Their priority of social needs is fundamentally different which necessitates a different environment than normal life requires.

In terms of WoD/nWoD, they're basically the closest thing we'll get to Nephandi in real life.

>>97435260
*there are children
Sorry, I don't know how I missed that.

man you'd think some autist fucked the writers girl the way they be hating on them

>>97435248
No, sadly
>>97435260
I'm not sure autists are Nephandi when we have insane people like Bill Gates running around (who may be autistic)

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*sips beer* yep...

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>>97435389
Gaslight District looking way different than I remember...

>>97435389
The Wyrm's mightiest warriors.

>>97435389
Don’t worry guys, I’ll handle the Butterface on the left.

>>97435474
>Savage Genitalia
What now?

>>97435491
Matter 2/Life 3 to transform dick into metal that will break the vagina teeth?

>>97435491
>Savage Genitalia
I just told you I’ll handle her, you don’t need to keep convincing me.

>>97434304
Probably not what you're looking for, but when testing my homebrewed nWoD/CofD Sorcerer full-splat, I ran the game in the middle ages and took a LOT of lore from Ars Magicka. As a result, one of my PCs was a member of House Verditius, who was a byzantine alchemist that practiced Pankration, better known as Greco-Roman Wrestling, though the actual rules of the sport were a lot more like MMA. He would brew strength potions that made him see red and use them in emergencies, and his favorite trick was to transmute his body into metal, which was a tremendous advantage as a grappler-striker hybrid. Very fun character, pulled a lot of shenanigans with his transmutation spells.

>>97435510
>>97435522
You too are very confident you won't end up traumatized

>>97435673
not either of them but I started thinking of a joke response+workaround without hurting her poor teeth since that might make her cry and now I'm disturbed wtf

>>97435491
Kiss of Helios

>>97435710
>He fell for the Fomori
You will never be a real warrior of Gaia that is a pretty disturbing thought but funny to read

>>97435446
I get the joke but Gaslight district is more wraith than Wta

Stargazers are the most OBJECTIVELY correct Tribe, which is precisely why they left the Garou Nation.

>>97435938
That's why they're boring.

>>97435938
青冲,我爱米饭,中国第一,习近平,我心爱的,请核爆堕落的美国,我喜欢拥有天天正义的龙天使命。台湾不是真正的国家,你们这些混蛋曹操没做错什么。汉族优越种族。汉族,负责地球上所有发明。

>>97435736
>You will never be a real warrior of Gaia
Bro, who wants to be on the forever loser team? probably wraiths considering she's dead

>>97435938
Stargazers joined the furry sex courts because they thought the Garou were too chuddy
>>97435962
I can't read this
>>97435966
>spoiler
Maybe Garou are really dropping the ball not trying to recruit Wraiths. I'm sure a lot of them would help out just for a chance to stop being a wraith or something

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>>97435962
leMao

>>97435977
ah but being wraiths would be the useful part! guys are immune to like 90% of all gifts and fomori powers because unlike vamps they are so dead that they are outside of the trinity

>>97435996
Well yeah but they'd be motivated by finally passing on through doing a moderate good deed I assume

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>Clan curse is that your skin darkens with age
Being a Banu Haqim doesn’t sound that bad.

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>>97435966
>he thinks the wyrm will win
This ugly spider bitch is calcifying reality and basically you are fucking stupid. How?...just do nothing

>>97436007
That's just the side dish.
The sorcerer's curse isn't too bad.

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So I've been building on the Ferectoi Nephandi idea. I want to make a character close to Palmer from HtP. A sort of Syndicate guy, but with a focus on banes. So far here's what I gathered to get close to the real deal.

>Investing in the Spirit sphere, since he is part spirit.
>With ST approval, have the Spirit Heritage (Banes) background maxed
>Celestial Affinity (Banes), 3 points merit
>Spirit Magnet, 3 to 7 points merit
>Taint of Corruption, 7 points flaw

Optional, but interesting when building my character
>Natural Shallowing, a 5 points merit
It would allow my character to physicallyt manifest banes into the world without the need of a host
>Networking talent
>Covert Cultures, Power-Brokering knowledge

>>97436146
Based always add enemy 5

>>97436161
>Spoiler
Who would that be?

>>97436187
>Ferectoi Nephandus
Verbena, her coven, and her family of Garou probably, but honestly it'd probably be more interesting if your boss or underling also had it out for you like Mike since this is based on Palmer

>>97436161
Isn’t the flaw limit 7 for PCs? Adding five more wouldn’t add any benefits.

>>97436254
You can always add more flaws for no reason whatsoever or flaws that are secretly merits like glowing eyes or other stuff. Hell, from a certain point of view being a midget or a child can be a merit

>>97436274
Meh, since he’s a nephandus enemies will naturally appear. Like any garous sniffing his way, or after he corrupts a caern

>>97436310
Fair enough, yeah

>>97436251
>Spoiler
Having enemies on the inside sounds more dangerous when you're talking about pentex. Being enemies with Mike would be a death sentence if you're not a board member or tied to one of them assuming that we're going with the normal version of mike and not the HtP one You could always throw in the single issue voter convention if you really want to give them a hard time.

>>97436254
>Not taking enemy
Missing out on kino potential

>>97436366
Nice digits, I just figure if you're going to play one of these you may as well have people out for you in the pre-emptive case you take their position. Enemy 5 is supposed to be huge big league enemies though right? Perhaps not chronicle antagonists level of influence but more like a local big fish
>>97436370
I agree, enemy kino is always for the best

>>97436366
Pretty sure if it’s Mike it matters not if you’re on the board or working under one of its members if he can get away with it. And I’m 90% sure my nephandi fresh out of chargen, and his circle, will get exterminated.

>>97436370
>>97436456
Though I do agree it’s a pretty nice tie-in to whatever the ST could use in his story. But I wouldn’t take it without any benefits… unless the ST agrees to remove the flaw for free if the enemy is dead

>>97436522
>Nephandi fresh out of chargen
Maybe you just aren't a big enough deal for him to care about directly yet? Even if we use the canon instead of funny swedish man there's no reason for him to go out of his way until you earn it more or less
>I wouldn't take it without benefits
Can always be discussed
>remove the flaw if the enemy is dead
Isn't that how it works already? It's not like you can just print more and more enemies like the cycle of violence actually matters to psychopaths no one cares about. At some point, your path of blood will dry up if you keep killing.

>>97434437
Nearly every "Autumn person" description seems unfair, since it seems to cover nearly everyone who isn't a literal manic pixie.

A fun merit combination i put together once was no name & amnesia. You know jack shit about yourself & neither does anyone else. No sire, no connections, nothing. Who even knows if your clan likes you?

>>97436665
Near quads, rip. Though yeah, rather I think it's because Autumn People represent particular single-mindedness as opposed to being anti-manic pixie.

>>97436716
How would you even know your clan at that point?

I'm very interested in Werewolf the Forsaken. I liked it more than Werewolf the Apocalypse. I wanted to know why it's not as popular as I think it should be.

>>97436966
Probably the big thing is that because of CCP and Paradox keeping WoD stuff in the general promotional forefront, it became harder for CofD stuff to stand out on its own unless it was way better than the older version, like CtL.

>>97436966
>has to compete against oWoD's schizokino conspiracy nutjob setting but without the same type of nonsensical foolery outside of Vigil and without the same usage of folktales like Lost
>Shunned by Paradox because it's not their own homecooked nonsense
>Shunned by White Wolf because terrible economic situation
>no videogames or even close to any videogames unlike wta for 2 decades
Simply not lucky

>>97436966
I think both have their strengths. I like Forsaken for
>Spirit border patrol is solid conceptually
>little to no metaplot unless you play into the pre-built backdrops offered like >>97431215
>antagonist werewolves in more shades than just cackling capital E EEEEEVIL (with the Bale Hounds serving as that if you really want)
>greater examination of spirits that aren't just literal embodiments

>>97436746
Maybe not. It'd be up to you & the storyteller on that. You vould also always roll as a Caitiff on top of it

>>97437137
>Caitiff but your ST determines randomly when and what your curse is
Sounds both kino and miserable

>>97437147
Hey man, taking 7 dots of "fuck my sense of self & belonging" is gonna be a little miserable. Tabula Rasa for your entire existence, it hits a lot harder than "tee hee I have amnesia, ive got no backstory" cop out

>>97437216
>ST turns you into Hitler's top guy or the Immortal from Planescape
Some Tabula Rasa's are not made equal

>>97436966
People don't actually play WtA here, they just like talking about it. So a better question is, why don't people talk about WtF?
>Simple premise. It's up to the Forsaken to maintain the status quo and prevent the physical world and spirit world from interfering with each other and the barrier between them. There's no infighting over how this should be done, no moral or philosophical conundrums. They've got a job and they need to do it.
>Black and white morality. The Forsaken are objectively the good guys and objectively in the right, especially in the second edition. Even the less moustache-twirling antagonistic werewolves are selfish cultists driven by childish resentment so the Forsaken don't have to feel bad about killing them.
>Bland tribes. You've got the warrior tribe, the shaman tribe, the sneaky tribe, the techy tribe and the leader tribe. Any complexity has to be found in lodges, as the tribes on their own don't have more to them than that on the surface, nor is there much meaningful conflict between them.
>Basically the only things about WtF that people like to discuss are the threats that they fight. On occasions when people do talk about this game, no one actually says anything about the Forsaken because unlike the Garou Nation, there's nothing to really say about them. They're just the good guys who do their jobs like good boys.

>>97436746
>>97437137
Pretty sure you'd KNOW if you were Embraced by a Nosferatu.

>>97433053
Thing is, none of the Thallain are fuckable, so they're automatically regulated to "bad guy" status only.
>Ugly=Evil

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Is there any reason not to spend 12 freebie points to have 10 Glamour on a Wilder Changeling?

>>97437291
Because it doesn't fit your character concept?

>>97437259
CofD books are a bit of a chore to read interesting but CofD feels purposefully less schizophrenic and engaging as a setting.

>>97437296
It would, actually. A Knight of House Danaan would probably have a high Glamour score

>>97437298
WoD does "feed a huge amount of lore so the ST just focuses on the story."
CofD does "Build a bunch of possible lore seeds so the ST can go in any direction they want."

>>97437311
You see, what I think CofD failed to realize was that the majority of people are creatively bankrupt.

>>97437306
>A Knight of House Danaan
I'm curious. What concept do you have in mind?

>>97437317
I mean, DnD 5E is still the biggest seller...

>>97437298
Imagine if you buy two novels written by the same author, who's famous for rich and compelling stories.
One is rich and compelling just as advertised, if a little wacky, from start to finish.
The other is pretty good for the first ten pages but then on the eleventh, it just says "the rest is up to you, use your imagination" and then after that, it's blank.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the second style of novel, as it can be an interesting thought exercise and promote creativity, but maybe the author shouldn't be surprised that people want the first style of novel instead, especially since it's what made him so successful in the first place.

>>97437311
>>97437317
Both of these are true though players of all kinds enjoy lore and lore lets you "borrow" a bunch of cool stuff someone way more creative than you cooked up without feeling silly about it, which I find helps a lot. Though, I also wouldn't say it's entirely a problem with creative bankruptcy. The WoD lore is rather good and covers nearly every angle of modern conspiracy theory

>>97437372
I wonder why (pre Stranger Things and CR) 5E sold so well? I know 4 was kind of mediocre for some because of being intended to pair with modern technology, but 5E was so watered down and kind of inferior to 3 and 4 despite the art being good. I must say, I enjoy the roleplay focus of 5E enough but making your own setting + trying to allow all the players to have fun without going too hard on the combat makes it hard to get invested in. It's probably just not for me on top of the available settings not being as cool

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>>97437259
>People don't actually play WtA here, they just like talking about it.
What a weird thing to lie about.

>Ventrue whose Feeding Restriction is women breastfeeding
>Like, he can only feed on them during the actual act of them breastfeeding
How would this fare at your table?

>>97437402
The big problem is that WoD's lore was completed, they brought them all to apocalypse scenarios and wrapped up, then decided the best way forward was in a different direction, especially rebooting the mechanics to be easier to play and making them all set in the same world and mechanics.

But then you get the corporate types hung up on how there were a few video games successful from WoD and giving no shits about the tabletop stuff.

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>>97437370
I’ve been thinking about a Sluagh knight, with the sluagh-ness coming from them representing the story of the “end of empires” and such. Someone who was personally involved in the culling of the Firbolg, for example. They have two main gimmicks. The first is that they’re sort of two people due to the specifics of their Changeling Way, but the second is that they can’t speak without Unleashing. Sorry if my answers are a little terse, i’ve been drinking

>>97437413
>I wonder why (pre Stranger Things and CR) 5E sold so well?
Critical Role switched over to D&D from Pathfinder in 2015, one year after 5e first came out. As the first truly popular actual play, responsible for turning it into a trend, it's uniquely responsible for 5e's rise to the top. While there were some gamers who went back to D&D with 5e's release due to its return to form after the unpopular direction that 4e went in, it only became ascendant after Critical Role became popular. The impact of that show on the hobby cannot be overstated.

>>97437425
I'd beat the shit out of anyone who tried that shit

>>97437413
One of the big things is that it's kind of like "My first 3.X", going back to the same core concepts and dumping all the "DnD Tactics" design ideas of 4E while also (over)simplifying the game.

4E was absolutely designed to need the VTT they wanted to launch with it. Basically every turn has every PC and enemy applying a bunch of buffs and debuffs with their Powers that all have turn counters, so there's usually several things the DM has to track on everything.

>>97437457
>Critical Role switched over to D&D from Pathfinder in 2015
Not by choice, but because WotC paid them to.

>>97437473
And it was the best financial decision that WotC ever made, when it comes to D&D.

>>97437478
And then they alienated them enough with the OGL 1.1 shit that they started being a competitor publishing their own games.

>>97437499
Only after D&D had already achieved an effective monopoly over TTRPGs.

>>97437425
>Like, he can only feed on them during the actual act of them breastfeeding
Hot.

>>97437499
nice get
>>97437510
Yeah, Wizards is probably too big to fail barring them doing some massive stupidity like OGL x2. Shame too, they've made basically every bad decision they could make regarding brand outside of CR, BG3, and Stranger Things.
>>97437457
>>97437465
Interesting yeah, just seems kind of a shame. On the other hand, Pathfinder is a bit of a sidegrade especially setting-wise.

>>97437499
>produce DnD 5 II
>it's even more oversimplyified
>relies on metacurrency and cooperative storytelling to prevent retardation instead of murdering PC's
I'm surprised it managed to sell well for being so mediocre

>>97437567
I've played both versions of 5E, it's generally better as a player in 24.

I've heard bad things about its DM experience, especially for how bad it is at telling a new DM how to prepare and run a game.

>>97437580
I've done both and it's perfectly playable but when you look at the other books and the degradation of the setting and vibe you can sort of feel it. One thing the game fails to really stress and most of the community won't bother with though is the resource management aspect of the game often gets ignored for the theater kid roleplay that's become synonymous with CR, so wizards and shit just get to ignore resource drain

>>97437238
Those sound great, as long as the ST doesnt say your backstory was being a bottom for bus fare

>>97437646
How about these choices then
>Furry Hitler (Brujah)
>Gay Immortal (Toreador)
>Slutty fem Shiro Ishii (Tzimisce)
>Unknowing Habsburg (Caitiff)
>Asexual Brutus (Assamite)
If we must Monkey's Paw, you were partially a degenerate along that character theme

>>97437679
Nah, I mean I try to be accommodating for STs & not be a self important asshole, but I had an old ST that would take any grey area to make a players character gay or cucked or degenerate in some fashion, so I draw the line on the ST making any declarations on my characters sexuality or sexual circumstance. No rape (victim or victimizer), no fag shit, no cuck shit, no molested by an uncle shit, nothing. He can say I was a hobo or some lame beta bitch, but nothing about my characters sexuality/sexual circumstance.

>>97437718
Based, yeah I respect that. I try to leave the kinky shit out of things I determine for other characters because it would be weird, but if I get given a Carte Blanche you're getting turned into the Zodiac Killer or worse

>>97436966
I also really like Werewolf the Forsaken. I think it's less of a popularity issue than you might think. I think oWoD lines are actually over-represented in discussion here for a handful of reasons.
>Less mutable and customizable lore means it's easier to discuss. CofD's big advantage over oWoD at the table level is that it caters more to the types of STs that like to be creative and have options, tailor things to their liking. This makes it harder to just casually discuss, there is far less in the way of official dudes and characters and flashpoints to discuss. It appeals more to the lorefags, and lorefags can talk forever.
>The anti-modernity lines accidentally aged well. Simply put, a lot more people hate modernity now than in the 90s, so even if the point isn't terribly well made, it resonates with more people now. Hell, you've got the people calling it "schizokino" because what I might call a jumbled mess of crappy lore can come across as cool in a post-truth world.

To make it clear, I don't even dislike oWoD as rote. Some things I like, other things I really don't. I like to run a mix-match of oWoD and nWoD material myself. Just tonight my table fought a bunch of Setites as Lostlings. Mix and match, make your perfect WoD for you, that's my philosophy.

But if you put beside lore discussions (and let's be frank, a lot of shitflinging) and look at the actual numbers of who has claimed to be playing what here, I think it's actually Hunter: the Vigil that'd be the most popular line. Followed by VtM and then after that it's 0-1 games for other gamelines. It just gets less discussion because, for a multitude of reasons, discussing actual active games has become less popular. Not unheard of, we still have a few, but it generates a lot less discussion.

>>97437772
So like Dark City.

>>97437869
Yeah, it would just be boring to make a guy an irrelevant amnesiac, but maybe if it's twice in a campaign I would do it to fuck with players

I think Forsaken & Apocalypse should be blended together. War of Rage/Impergium could largely be replaced by the Pure. Spirit border patrol can give them an actual duty other than "warrior for Gaia (tm)". Make the Wyld/Wyvr/Wyrm imbalance be tied to the death of Father Wolf, & it's less about the Apocalypse (it's still there as a plot point) but more about trying to fix the problems they started.

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>>97436966
I want to run a WtF campaign in the future as I like it conceptually, but I am struggling to see how a full campaign of it would come together. You have your territory, and you have to hunt. I'm not too clued up on Spirits and that side of the gameline admittedly so that may be my issue with it, but you basically play as Predators hunting other mosnters to protect your territory. You can also slip into the Hisil to hunt there? It feels to me like the scope of the game is deliberately tight (Hunting), but then that Hunt is meant to engender further threats and consequences (spirit ecology stuff?) that feel var more vague and nebulous, and less in keeping with the "Hunt 24/7 awoo" angle that the game pushes?

I think I'd like to run a more encounter-heavy game with the PCs as the powerhouses that use teamwork to bring down other threats. I just struggle to immediately envisage it as a full campaign, you know? For Hunter, I can get a campaign in my mind with a few sentences, even if it's just monster-of-the-week. But for WtF that both feels like what I'm meant to do, but somehow not enough, like i'd be underutilising what I'm given?
I have a Uratha as a target in my Hunter campaign and they feel pretty natural as a foil honestly. Maybe I should run a Pure campaign and not tell anyone.

>>97437966
Funny. I consider “Warrior of Gaia” a better defined duty than Spirit Border Control and I hate the concept of Father Wolf.

>>97437996
Not to sound like a pretentious cunt, but have you actually read the WtF 2e book?

>>97437966
>>97438016
Spirit shit and dealing with humans is also warrior of Gaia behavior. You do not need to fight the Wyrm every day.
>>97437996
>spoiler
That sounds quite kino

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>when you tell him that electricity and magnetism is the same thing and he gives you the signature Etherite stare

>>97438018
Go for it man, I've not read it in-depth no, those are just first impressions for a light read through.

I was a bit surprised that the Tribes given aren't a Covenant equivalent ala VtR but were more of a "Choose your enemy" type affair. Blood Talons were Pure/other Werewolf hunters, there was one for Slashers and humans etc. They had societies attached but it felt like the book didn't pretend they had some deeper function in Uratha society, that's given to the Lodges which each had a few paragraphs and that's it.

Everything else felt like it pushed Hunt Hunt Hunt. The morality tracker pushing the middleground by mechanical design was interesting and felt thematic, and every PC making numerous NPCs for the packs support network was a nice touch.

I'll admit straight up that I didn't get too into the Spirit chapter as I'm not going to be using Spirits in my current campaign and didn't want to get too tempted to add a new antagonist, I know I'd get carried away.

I think the part I struggle with is that the book clearly does want you to always be focussing on the next hunt, it felt very immediate and that leads me to feel like a monster-of-the-week format is how a general game would unfold? A wider shell story to cover it all and you and your packmates go hunting to maintain your territory and build your legend.

I'm happy to be wrong though, oftentimes I find it's easier to learn about a game through exposure to other games.

>>97438023
We'll see I guess, I may have completely the wrong idea about things.

Wow, even the CofD werewolf fags have thin skin. Hilarious.

>>97437996
>I'm not too clued up on Spirits and that side of the gameline admittedly so that may be my issue with it, but you basically play as Predators hunting other mosnters to protect your territory.
>but then that Hunt is meant to engender further threats and consequences (spirit ecology stuff?) that feel var more vague and nebulous, and less in keeping with the "Hunt 24/7 awoo" angle that the game pushes?
Keeping Spirits in check is the Uratha's job because every Spirit is categorically insane by every definition of the word, and are fully convinced that they are the ones who must become absolutely dominant to ensure their concepts reign supreme. Even Spirits of Love, Justice, Hope, Light, and Life can and will become utterly nightmarish if allowed to do as they please unchecked. The Uratha hunt them to prevent them from basically raping (literally and metaphorically) humanity to death, and these are one of myriad threats they deal with - from Pure incursions where the Pure outnumber them three to one and want to cull humanity back to the stone ages or worse, to the Idigam escaping the Moon, to Geryo just flat out wanting Urfarah's second gen kids exterminated out of spite, to void spirits and void space-whales trying to crash down and cause cataclysmic spiritual devastation, to the Hosts, and to other old enemies that Father Wolf had made prior to dying.

It is also worth noting that Uratha don't just Hunt Spirits but they can try diplomacy. It just doesn't work often because Spirits are still categorically insane AND said spirits usually fucking hate them due to the wolves preventing them from spreading everywhere like a cancer as is their main wish.

>>97438023
In fact, trying to fight the Wyrm everyday and seeing it in everything (which it is, but that's beside the point) is part of the Garou's fucking problem. They have no goddamn chill and no them to actually just sit and be people because they're on a constant hair-trigger 24/7 about every issue in the goddamn world or every issue they perceive the world as having.

The irony is, for all that people mock their job here and for all that they're part alien wolf spirit and part actual person, the Uratha are infinitely more well-adjusted than the Garou because they can sit back and actually be people when they aren't dealing with like, a Host plotting to lay a gajillion eggs in the water supply or some shit.

>>97438618
hey vlov haven't seen you in a while. did they ever release the second half of your fucking visual novel?

>>97438599
Garou are able to be people and do people things, it's just that those things are usually aligned with their goals. For example, a lot of Glass Walkers can hold down jobs, even if the motivation behind that job is ultimately tied to generating profit that the cause can use to better serve Gaia.

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>>97435021
>Ananasa has a hivemind with her children
Does she? I know she communicates with them but I didn't think she was capable of just directly seizing control of them. Every Ananasi meets Ananasa (at least) once, in the Umbra shortly after their Metamorphosis, as part of a ritual where 3 elder spiders will fuse their crawlerlings to summon her up as an aspect - but since she's been encased in Amber she doesn't seem to be able to do that under her own steam.

I don't dislike it conceptually though! The notion that you begin valuing your mission above and beyond literally anything else, but that seems to be approaching Drone stuff which is more Weaver-proper in nature. Is 'identity' or the loss of it thematically consistent with the Ananasi? Could it be made to be? They CAN change their appearence as matter of course after all, I suppose...

What would gain them those dice though? Maybe directness. The more you 'go loud', the more your web starts to unravel and you solve more and more problems directly and damn the consequences to yourself or others. Makes for a great reason to mechanically encourage the subtlety the Ananasi are known for and supposed to operate by.

>>97435034
Personal project! I love the Ananasi, so since it's been 10+ years since they last got proper bespoke rules (and 20+ since they last got a lore touch-up), I figure making a 5th Edition version of the Ananasi lets me do both while avoiding getting all tangled in prior editions.

In Mage the Ascension which type of magic is better for creating a wizard with super speed, Correspondence or Time?

>>97438901
>Is 'identity' or the loss of it thematically consistent with the Ananasi?
Yes, as they claim the memories of the people who they body-snatch and they lose memories as their leader Crawlerlings die.

>>97438929
depends what you want Time let's you bullet time. Correspondence let's you teleport behind people and say that it is nothing personal and life let's you have superhuman dex

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>>97438690
still not, but I bet it will be released at the same time as VTMB3.

>>97438946
Oooh that's true, they change who they are in both body and mind. Plus their metamorphosis can result in enormous personal changes to the point people notice they're different, so it's a theme through their entire lifespan.

This is all very useful to chew on, thanks anons.

>>97438690
>>97439035
Vlov probably won't be featured in the Red Side routes desu

>>97438901
>Does she? I know she communicates with them but I didn't think she was capable of just directly seizing control of them.
We don't see her possessing people but she is the default totem and we have some descriptions of how the change fucks with their head.

>What would gain them those dice though?
When you violate a law or refuse one of her request Big Spider™ pulls on the leash until you choke or stop acting stupid.

>>97438587
Appreciate the insights anon. My reading of it was that the Uratha have to carry out a capital-H Hunt with regularity as their power stat goes up or they will shift in Gauru and go on a murder rampage that also lasts longer the longer they're in power. Does diplomacy with Spirits satisfy the criteria of a hunt?

It's still extremely early days as I'm running another campaign, but my current plan would be to have the PCs as Uratha united by the howls of a captive or dying Cahalith (depending on my current PCs decisions really). Either the PCs are lone-wolves up to now, remnants of a broken pack or maybe they knew the Cahalith previously. They're drawn to this howl that carries such whose rage at being captured/killed is potent enough that it would inspire in those who hear it a legacy of vengeance, cementing the Cahalith in the memory of the PCs and wider Uratha culture. It might be as a changing of the guard and passing of the mantle, it could be just to bear witness to her passing and spread the word. Something in that ballpark, Father Wolf-esque without sundering reality itself.
From then, the PCs encounter varying threats in the region as they inherit her territory. Spirits and the Pure would also be aware of her passing and look to make gains of their own in her absence. Throw in some legacy returning villains from the current campaign but now viewed as Uratha rather than HtV-bozos and that's the campaign. Ideally it'd be framed less as "putting out fires" and a bit more empowering.

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love seeing WtF discussion

>>97439269
>Does diplomacy with Spirits satisfy the criteria of a hunt?
Yes, because a hunt is not necessarily murder rampage for the Forsaken but a general challenge they pursue from my understanding. SUCCESSFUL diplomacy and getting them to fuck off after a long hearty race to figure out why say, a Soirit of Construction is building Mcmansions everywhere before it smothers the entire local community would qualify as a Hunt about as strongly as simply ripping the damn thing to shreds. Of course, this only (kinda) works with Spirits. You cannot reason with Hosts, Idigam, Geryo or void spirits - they have to die.

>>97439269
I can't see that word without thinking of Gyaru and by extension Gyaru werewolves

>>97439423
Gotcha, appreciate the explanation. I figured that if the consequence for not doing a hunt was an uncontrolled murder spree, then a hunt was probably a slightly more restrained murder-spree.

>>97439363
>What the Fuck
Can somehow give me a rundown? Which creature do you play as?

>>97439625
*someone

>>97439625
What: the Fuckening
A cosmic game of incomprehensible horror

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>>97440134
My kind of game

>>97439625
You play as a No One, obviously.
>>97440134
>>97440471
>tfw mystery eldritch waifu will never blow your mind literally and metaphorically
Why even live if we can't engage in 4 dimensional coitus bros?

I volunteer to repopulate the Bubasti!

>>97440515
Due to your many genetic inadequacies, the busbati reject your offer.

>>97436007
really says something about Caine that he saw that as a curse

>>97436007
It's not tanned mommy gf it's your skin turning utterly and unnaturally black making you a walking Masquerade violation.

>>97438076
>When a Sleeper says something so mundane, you got to hit them with that Etherite Stare (Mind 1 Rote)

>>97436177
This, sleepers still cling onto their silly beliefs, too afraid to embrace the perfection offered to us by machines.

>>97440588
>being black is a walking Masquerade violation
Come on now

I don't care what the books say, I am 100% of the belief that the Assamites are talking out of their ass when they blame the Baali for their vitae addiction and diablerist's aura. Caine probably found Haqim trying to tear into Irad or Enoch like a stray dog tears into a ribeye and slapped his ass with a mark of shame for all time. Honestly I bet Ventrue might be a similar story. Both clans have a blood-drinking based curse, and INSIST that they were actually good bois and Caine's favorite? Nah those two were up to some bullshit in the first city.

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>>97440787
Obsidian black skin is very weird looking yes.

>>97437996
While the spirit stuff is important, remember that WtF isn't just about spirits. What are the other local packs like? Are they mostly Pure or Forsaken? Are they independent, or organized? What is the pack's territory like? Anyway humans might be fucking things up? One idea I had for an antagonist once is having the local government controlled by a cult lead by Claimed (well, two cults in conflict with each other, but still). Do to the existence of favored prey, one potential solution is seeing what Tribes your players are interested in and shaping the antagonists around that.

>>97440799
>t. Tremere