I liked that it wasn't twee. It's like a real book!

There's a lot more goth themed gangs in NC2045 than I expected

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>they made fortnight real
#5 The Combat Zone
>A large section of New Westbrook is separated from the rest of the district by a high wall. Inside lies one of the largest permanent movie sets ever constructed: an entire fake urban wasteland owned and operated by Network 54 and used to film shows like [...] The Combat Zone.
>In case you’ve been living under a rock for the last five years, The Combat Zone is Network 54’s highest-rated show. Every six months, the show’s producers select fifty contestants from a pool of roughly five hundred applicants. Those contestants are then stripped of all clothing but their underwear, sedated, and fitted with a special neural implant.
>When they wake up, they’re alone somewhere in the fake combat zone where they must scramble to find clothing, armor, weapons, and supplies. For the next three days, the fifty contestants engage in a battle royale in an attempt to be the last person standing. To make matters worse, on day two, the producers activate the MIST, a shrinking circle of death. Remember that special neural implant? It directly zaps the brains of the contestants caught outside the MIST, causing intense pain, damage, and eventually death. By the end of the third day, the MIST shrinks to such a small area that any remaining contestants cannot hide from one another and must kill or be killed
>The contestant who survives to the end wins a year’s worth of chicken dinners, courtesy of one of the show’s sponsors, Continental Brands.
>Cameras and drones positioned throughout the area capture every minute, which is then cut, edited, reassem-bled, and interspersed with interviews potential contestants record while applying to be on the show.
>The winner becomes an instant celebrity, a lifestyle they are rarely ready for. Most die within weeks of the show airing, usually from suicide, violence, or drug overdose.

>>97915258
This was already shown off in Night City Atlas I think but yeah, they made Fortnite real. Personally I'd prefer to think of it in MadWorld rules.

>>97915228
It still has a few stupid ideas and characters here and there but overall the book does a lot to re-inject the darker aspects of the setting back into it and remind how ugly and harsh Cyberpunk can be. Very much needed.

>>97915301
I'm not finished yet but my criticisms are rarely about what's on the page so much as what's not. really missing the physical descriptions of buildings endemic to 2020, and/or the illustrations of buildings. sometimes it's fine but a lot of noteworthy buildings are described in function and not in appearence, like a few of the corpo towers.
in general there's a good mix of dark and goofy, and in fact unlike previous releases there are very few goody two shoes

The idea of the referee counting 60 combat rounds till the police get there is classic 90s RPG.

okay, easily the worst part of NC45 is clearly something decided upon by rtal instead of any of their contracted writers
every location involving petrochem must be bordered by its equivalent sovoil counterpart, and vice versa. employee apartments, executive homes, refineries, corporate office towers, etc. it's really tedious - they often have the same wording! someone clearly thinks this is very clever - if they ever read this, they should know it only works if it's not literally always the case. the employees bunking together is a lot less amusing or interesting if they also work side by side managing facilities side by side whose bosses love next door to each other.

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I had a healthy chuckle at this

>>97915582
It’s a great joke, also it’s not literally always the case. The profiles for the actual people are pretty different

>>97915673
besides the Soviet consulate, name a single time they aren't neighbours.

>>97915658
There's also The Forge which is obviously the old Puddleforge bookstore before Maelstrom sieged it and took it over.

>>97915689
Red Cab

>>97915902
why do you think redcab is affiliated with either megacorp?

>>97915915
Soviet

It's weird to read about a night city which is conspicuously and completely absent of Arasaka. there aren't even hints of sleeper agents or proxies! the ubiquitous big bad is just gone. I'm not sure it's a bad thing but it's bizarre after playing 2077, reading the original sourcebook, pacific rim, etc

>>97916213
Well, there’s Danger Gal

>>97916213
>>97916254
At this point I think it's safe to say Red is some kind of alternate timeline masquerading as a prequel.

>>97916213
Wasn't Arasaka kicked out after 4th Corporate War and made a comeback only when Night City declared independence from North California and NUSA/Militech tried to invade?

>>97916357
yes, but it's still weird to have them be so absent. Militech and Lazarus have filled the void somewhat but it's odd

on that note
>be COG in military base in norcal
>turncoat on the USA to pledge loyalty to free state of NorCal
>give nationalised by USA megacorp militech a sweetheart 1eb lease on your military base for the regional offices
>zomg someone on base is leaking intel back to washington...
are they stupid?

Padre and Dino both show up in NC45, but not wakako and they signpost the origins of the Valentino's gang of 2077 - as essentially a breakaway faction of el norte cartel. Rogue is already a fixer, and many of the radio stations from 77 feature. Also, subtly, there is a company which makes special SAAI romantic companions run by a Victoria Cunningham, suspected of having access to soulkiller. Also featured is the dairy farm where the cereal killer from river wards quests milked little boys, Judy's shitty home town pre-flooding, and of course the sunshine motel from the game - not the sunset motel where you get friend zoned by panam and where you take Hellman after you capture him, a different, smaller motel farther out on the same road. you don't remember it because it was just a militech combat encounter

I didn't catch any other obvious references to 2077 but there are a few reappearing faces from the old sourcebook

>>97916554
Wakako is already in DGD as a Tyger Claws member, isn't she? Why would they reprint that info in this book?

>>97916632
they reprinted other dgd stuff, actually. not a lot, but it's there. ditto for some stuff from hope reborn

>>97916373
>are they stupid?
FIA keeps killing their leadership, making backdoor deals with others, and now they are in a spiral of mutual decay.

>>97916320
This. A lot of the stuff in 45 just doesn't survive aesthetically into 77, nor does it seem like it naturally follows from 20. There was the court snippet posted that they "electrolash" people and hang them. Like, what? They ideologically returned to a medieval society because modern society got knocked down a peg? It's not even bad it's just kinda silly, in a way that doesn't gel with what came before (the important part), and doesn't gel with what's to come later. On the other hand I'd be happy with RTal coming out and saying 45 is another divergent timeline; that'd be just fine.

>>97916999
>They ideologically returned to a medieval society because modern society got knocked down a peg?
Lashes and canes are still in use in Asia and Middle East. It's an effective punishment, so it may have been an AI generated answer to many social problems (in-universe).
Presumably tar and feathers is too right-wing or traumatizing to jews or something.

>>97916999
77 doesn't even have furries without mods.
It's a very cleaned up version of Cyberpunk.

>>97916213
Well, in my campaign the Arasaka is using both Tygers and the Yakuza to get a foothold in the city, but the more overt threat to people is Militech.
Now, there's Lazarus as well.

>>97916320
And that's a good thing.

>>97915258
Interesting bit of lore is that it's where the corpo center before corpo center was, where Militech first butted heads with Arasaka.

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>>97916213
>there aren't even hints of sleeper agents or proxies!
There is /some/

does anyone have a link to the books? g0file or m3g4?

>>97917707
It's found on the pdf thread.

>>97917707
share thread is the place to ask

>>97916320
Nah, Red is where the millenials hit 40s-60s, and overtake boomers, the great inhibitors.
That's why it's so weird and semi-optimistic, but with a heavy dose of fatalism.
Zoomers will resurrect the hate gangs and explode the number of shemales, returning everything to its rightful place.

>>97917841
>You're most likely playing a gen Alpha with your edgerunners.
Pretty cool. Can't draw too many parallels with the alternate timelines, but maybe the Millenials managed to reawaken humanity's heart.
Just remember - instead of jews, eldritch monsters known as corporations (likely meshed with AI) are the enemy in RED.

>>97917841
>Be zoomer in the bombed out ruins of social collapse
>Running through the almost bone-dry sewers
>Faint footsteps on dust reverberating through the masonry
>Pause, hold my breath, a millennial search party is right above the next grate
>"The femboy ran this way!"
>"Do you see him?"
>Heart about to burst
>Let out a little gay gasp
>"HE'S HERE!"
>Get forcibly taken off to the shemaleification plant, the fate that awaits all zoomies
>The search party are all posergangers that look like they're from Stargate Atlantis
Yup, just as nature intended.

>>97916320
It actually all fits the timeline they made for 2077, where Arasaka is kicked out after the 2020s and only returns during the war in the 2060s. If anything I think a bunch of the weird stuff comes from attempts at brand synergy

>>97916999
anon that was lifted directly from 2020 lol

>>97917792
How do i use that?

>>97918509
If so there's a lot of egg running down to my face and I don't like it

>>97918532
I don't think anyone read protect and serve. however red is actually harsher than protect and serve - you can get bail in protect and serve and there's weeks between arrests and trial. now they just chuck you in front of an AI the next day

clearly someone really likes and liked judge dredd, desu.

>>97918549
It's PaS? Cus I was now looking through the NC sourcebook wondering why I'm retarded. I don't even have a copy of PaS. I think I might be unegged, I like it. But now I'm going to find a copy of PaS and be mad at that instead.

>>97918576
Originally it was the State Executioner doing it instead of the City Executioner

The funny thing is that in PaS you actually have a *right* to be publically executed instead of just shot behind the jail

I've now finished NC45, and I do really like it but I want to say my 4 main problems with it upfront

>1 different authors leads to different styles, tones and quality.
mostly these work and I like most districts, and mostly there isn't a great tone shift from one district to a other, but here's a clear example.
In little europe, the author falls into a somewhat tedious rhythm - every spot has some secret or conspiracy that they haven't unraveled yet. these kinds of twists don't work if the reader comes to expect them, they just get boring. not everything in a district can be a shady secret conspiracy!
in contrast, Watson has the opposite problem. nothing in Watson is ever anything but what it appears to be on its face. there's no intrigue or conspiracy or twists. it's a pretty boring district! two opposite problems caused by having two unrelated authors

>Some gangs are left a little underwritten
2020s sourcebook had a problem: all the gangs were themed retards who, for the most part, stabbed people because stabbing is awesome, or were really lame guardian gangs who ran DARE programs after school. NC45s gangs are mostly doing things for actual reasons. they have business plans and goals, even if it's "sell used chrome to get new chrome" "being goth is awesome" "run child sweatshops to make money to save the white race." Unfortunately they go a bit too far and there just aren't really much in the way of classic junkie boosters we all love to waste. the Kill Krashers are one, but they are super underwritten, and get basically no locations and very little mention outside their faction page. this is cyberpunk, you need some themed murderhobos to gun down! the toecutters are similar but in a better spot. Outside of the lack of boosters, the yellow brick road gets ZERO mention in any of the district sections, nor do the Andersons (despite running a night market) and the willows only barely do. mostly the gangs are way better than 2020s, but those are the exceptions.

>>97918635
Is the electrowhipping also a thing, or is that a Redism? Because that's my point of contention. Being shot unceremoniously is way more what I've been playing, and an electrowhip for public humiliation\torture seems way out of the scope of the justice system.

>>97918652
part two
>the big one: locations are often not described physically and have no illustrations
2020 had the gorgeous corpo plaza illustration, and they went into evocative detail about the architecture of each corpo tower. it really set a tone of glittering excess and corporate power. many buildings, especially notable ones, lack any description of the building itself - including the mansions in the exec zone and the corporate offices. another example is the eagle rock cargo containers, which bafflingly never mention that they are located inside of an abandoned stadium.... most sections have great cover art, but man was I jonesing for illustrations or descriptions of a few key spots. this is far and away my biggest gripe with the book.

>petrochem and sovoil
this joke gets old fast. at every petrochem and sovoil location, they are next door neighbours (funny!!!) and bicker about it. and I do mean every. the game never missed a chance at this gag, and at many locations their descriptions are literally copy pasted but with sovoil swapped for petrochem. someone up the chain clearly thinks this is the peak of comedy. the only exception are the chooh stations, which share some description but are located on different roads. plastic factories, refineries, housing, corporation offices, executive mansions - even the garbage guys are LOL funne petrochem sovoil share the dump xD.

>>97918652
>every spot has some secret or conspiracy that they haven't unraveled yet. these kinds of twists don't work if the reader comes to expect them, they just get boring. not everything in a district can be a shady secret conspiracy!
If this were a novel, that might be unrealistic, but this is a setting book. I think the rational is "you could use any of these hooks, but they only exist if you use them."

It's like the deadlands setting books. Every little town listed has some crazy haunted magic mumbo-jumbo going on, not so you can portray shit that way, but so every time your characters go to a town, there is a session or two worth of content there.

>>97917894
Stop Femboy erasure.

I cannot say enough how glad I am that NC45 gets rid of that "Face" crap right out of the gate. god that shit was lame and so out of kilter for the tone

>>97918689
I don’t think his problem is the hooks so much as the division of authors means that in one neighborhood everything is a conspiracy while in another everything is exactly how it looks on the outside, which can get incongruous

FWIW I think Little Europe is probably the weakest part of the book and it’s a shame it’s the first location because it sets the wrong expectations

>>97918796
agreed, little Europe is the weakest and it is a shame it's first, and it's a double shame because "middle class neighbourhood of retired pre4CW solos" is a really, really cool idea.

the best districts are, in no particular order
>Little China
>Rancho Coronado
>Santo Domingo

these are all basically perfect. You could probably have a party of rank 6 PCs roll Rancho Coronado and take control of it too, which to me is a bonus.

>>97918874
Yeah, those are all great. I think South Night City is also up there

>>97918920
Oh and Old Japantown too, it has the single best location in the book (Kidz Kamp) and a bunch of others solid stuff too

I like that the guy in universe writing the The Glen section is obviously and intentionally a huge douche. really adds to it

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another great location

does anyone know if they've intentionally added ROF2 shotguns, very heavy pistols, etc to any NPC statblocks before? there's a couple in the book, and I'd assume they're typos but I wanted to see if it might be intentional

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I go through the weapon customization section of Solo of Fortune 2 fairly often and so am regularly greeted with this art, and still for the life of me I cannot quite understand what is being depicted in it. Any ideas?

>>97919762
There is a gun in the foreground.

>>97918655
Electrowhipping seems to be a RED thing. But as the other anon said, punishments like caning do still exist in our world today in modern countries like Singapore.

>Being shot unceremoniously is way more what I've been playing
They definitely do that if you piss them off while in jail or if they sentence you to death.

>>97919762
Looks like a camera aimed directly at a firearm being held pointing up, with that guy standing multiple feet away from the camera so the gun looks giant next to him. What this art is meant to mean or evoke, I don't know.

>>97918652
>Unfortunately they go a bit too far and there just aren't really much in the way of classic junkie boosters we all love to waste. the Kill Krashers are one, but they are super underwritten, and get basically no locations and very little mention outside their faction page. this is cyberpunk, you need some themed murderhobos to gun down!
You are right, but it is a problem that is easy for a GM to solve. Just make up some random gang of one-note dorphers for the players to blast to pieces and then forget about. There's probably dozens, maybe hundreds of them in Night City.

What annoys me is that RED doesn't mention if dorphs are really still around or not. Have they all moved on to Black Lace? Is that the standard drug of choice for violent street thugs now?

>>97918511
ask there, not here

>>97918652
>Watson has the opposite problem. nothing in Watson is ever anything but what it appears to be on its face. there's no intrigue or conspiracy or twists.

>the karate dojo owner might be an Arasaka loyalist
>the Canadian Consulate might be diving into the Old NET
>the daycare is a front for a biker gang
>the Yakuza might be branwashing people with subliminal messages in BDs
>the NeoSoviet Consulate has a Consortium spy
>Redline might host off-the-books deathmatches
>Tyger Claws making XBDs in the back of the Snack & Shack

It may not be a lot but it's more than nothing.

my biggest complaint about the NC2045 book so far is how hard they're still trying to push roller derby as something to care about

>>97917559
Unironically I think it's better if Red is it's own fiction separate from CDPR canon. Gives R.Tal more freedom to write whatever gay shit they want without having to consult CDPR and also if fans don't like it they can just say it's non canon and ignore it, like most already do.

R.Tal seem to want to exert some kind of ownership over the IP that's no longer theirs, so I don't think they'll ever do it. Setting the game in the 2040s-50s give them enough leeway to handwave the tonal and lore inconsistencies.

Really R.Tal change their mind over plot details all the time, certain things like Night City having no cars seem like them trying to explain the nonsensical economy rules via lore but back tracked when people criticized it. I see Cyberpunk Red as a rules system first and a setting second.

>>97920915
>Tonal inconsistency
The world ending is rather cheery.
The writers just focus on the surface and the tonally light stuff. The vulgar aspects of the world are mentioned, but I think the legal system is the most in-depth take on the dystopian and darker aspects.
>lore inconsistency
What do you meän?

after this NC sourcebook I think it would make sense to let lawmans backup be more determined by the local security contractors, especially at the lower levels, and maybe with some consideration for bonuses or penalties for less secure areas. golden dragons in Chinatown, 6th street in Heywood, sheriffs in the boonies, etc.
nothing to shift the power dramatically, just for flavour and to try to "fit the bill". It seems likely that if you report in a disturbance in charger hill, militech is more likely to respond than, say, NCPD in New Westbrook or god forbid Rancho Coronado. and maybe on a crit fail, in an appropriate situation, maybe they don't appreciate your presence in their district either

>>97921015
I think the lawman should have some more nuanced powers. Sure, they will have the skillset to roleplay a cop, but having some rules for access to the police terminal and file registry would be good. Good way to risk the licence, breach some case files not meant for the living.

>>97921015
>after this NC sourcebook I think it would make sense to let lawmans backup be more determined by the local security contractors, especially at the lower levels
If you are a corrupt cop, and for some reason have jurisdiction in an area that is guarded by gangs- I can see it working with that gang. They may demand membership for this, however, and if it's found out, you're out of the police force.
Doubt that gangs would protect a crooked cop unless they've invested in them.

>>97921078
anon the gangs are fully legally deputised in their districts by the legally appointed district manager. 6th street in heywood are exactly as legit as NCPD in the glen. its not a matter of corruption or joining gangs at all. you should probably give the book a peak
>>97921072
oh sure

>>97920915
I feel like it just invites shithead complainers who bitch about canon and don't get that the only really canon that matters is the one at your own table. When I eventually run the Red campaign Im planning, I want the players to have the ability to effect Night City long term, and the story and setting of a videogame I'm never going to play doesn't factor into my decision making process in the slightest.

I'm one of the few people who think it's *good* they set the game in 2045 and didn't just make cyberpunk 2078. I appreciate that Red is trying to be it's own thing, even though that thing has been kind of schizophrenic. Red has a hell of a lot more character than what I've seen of 2077.

>>97921096
2077 is an amazing experience but it's a rushed product that had to cut a lot of content from exotic customizations to flying vehicles and even most vertical environments.
Driving around in Night City is a great experience. But they cut down the scale a ton too- don't want to bore your players.

>>97921091
>the gangs are fully legally deputised in their districts
Yes. Doesn't mean much outside the district and I fail to see how they'd have much love for the NCPD.
The situation isn't all that different from the self-appointed district governor Kurt Hansen and his guard dogs.
The top levels of the city join the same galas and parties, but the more notorious districts play the role of dissidents to the public.
Whilst I think the 6th Street is playing more with the cops at this stage, David Ling Po's posse and other combat zones will likely be very unwelcoming to cops.

>>97921240
you should probably actually read the book anon, instead of just playing vidya. if you need help sounding out the words, im sure your mommy can help you

>>97921240
Anon, you know the districts arent walled off and everyone is on the same council? It isnt anything like Kurt Hansen, they are legally selected district managers and on the council. They don't "play the role of dissidents to the public" what are you on about?

>>97921253
I'm pretty sure the Old Combat Zone is exactly like that. Combat zones are part of the city council just like the sharia courts are part of London. Their areas are still no-go zones for cops, firefighters and ambulances. Just like combat zones.

>>97921288
The kids raped by the gangs seek help from cops, get raped by the cops instead. Cops would get in trouble for approaching the gang issue, or their superiors. They still can't enter the no-go zones despite having legal jurisdiction.

>>97921249
>murder is illegal, and has death penalty
>therefore it's rare
You have some degree of gullibility to you. You take written material too seriously.

>>97921288
the old combat zone isnt a no go zone for cops - they just dont care about it. the warrens are, though, because its too much of a maze. there are only two real no-go zones for cops - the norcal military base and the executive zone, which are both actually walled off. the norcal base is also not subject to the laws of night city - its military law.

the reason for deputized gangs is because the ncpd is relatively overstretched and underfunded, so the council empowers district managers to choose their own security providers. a lot of very well off districts also have contracts for private security forces, for various reasons.

the true shitholes are rancho and the hot zone, where there isnt any government administration and the cops basically just do flybys with psycho squads

>>97921096
>Red has a hell of a lot more character than what I've seen of 2077.

You really should play the game before criticizing it's setting. 2077 is pretty good at world building and is pretty consistent on selling you on Night City as a hyper capitalist dystopia that's basically all the problems of today being taken to their logical conclusion. Essentially a more modern take on 2020.

Red on the other hand has always been confused on it's themes and tone. Is it Cyberpunk or Post Apocalypse? Is it noble bright or edgy dystopia? Do cars exist or not? Why the fuck is there so much material on an in universe MMO and it's almost ubiquitous popularity when internet infrastructure is limited on a city to city basis and the average Night Citizens are barely scraping by

Generally I think 2077 has a more consistent setting and Red is just a grab bag of whatever the writers thought was cool. Granted NC45 seems like an earnest attempt to address the above complaints but still R.Tal are fighting an uphill battle trying to get people to care about the 2040s when 2077 is vastly more popular and the default setting for a lot of tables due to being more well known and popular.

>>97921142
>cut a lot of content from exotic customizations to flying vehicles and even most vertical environments.

Were exotics or flying cars ever planned? There's no mention of exotics anywhere in the game (thank god) and flying cars are in the game, but are automated and only show up in the corpo opening and certain cutscenes, so I don't think they were planned either.

>>97921316
>the old combat zone isnt a no go zone for cops - they just dont care about it.
Good to see we have NCPD spokesperson in here.
Next you'll be saying how good the crime rates are looking.

>>97921304
>>97921324
man you really are a faggot. you can just read the book man its on the share thread, the information isnt hidden. unless youre argument is that you dont care what it says, which sure whatever do what you want at your table. but if youre saying that all the districts are basically dogtown as presented to us in the book, youre just a retard. but desu i think you just havent touched the book.

>>97921323
>exotics
We see one exotic in the game a crocodile skinned man, and one bozo. The Animals are lorewise part furries. They were likely cut to shape the tone. We also don't get FBC options and the like. Highly likely they were on the table early on but cut as the project took shape. The initial character creator was more in-depth, not a list of options but full customization.
>flying cars
Flying vehicles were on the table but Pondsmith talked them out of it- he had been part of something similar and it would have made everything much more challenging to combine and design. You have to make a whole lot more environment for it, and design encounters for aerial approach. I agree with the call.

Initial story of 77 was going to be about NightCorp, and Sandra Dorsett would have been more vital part of it, even living in the same apartment.
They cut entire districts and some are drive-by - much dlc was cut (at least two), as were Megabuildings. Consider the state of its release- it turned out quite well despite everything.

>>97921335
>youre argument
Combat zones are, and have always been, no go zones for public institutions. No taxis, ambulances, police or military go there and expect no retaliation. They work together but it's way more loose than competing facilities in USA or elsewhere do (Fbi / NSA / police / ice etc.) - imagine they'd
That's why they employ or allow for criminals or mercenaries to do it for them, whereas Militech has expanded its influence and is not going to act as anything less than an occupying force. Likewise, you can give Chinese Mafia a badge but don't expect them to be all buddy buddy with the police or risk their lives for one.

>>97921363
>imagine they'd
hire actual gangs to guard an area. Say, New Jersey jewish police force, or MS13 would get to guard a Mexican area. You think that the legal bs hoodwinking is enough to make people willing to risk themselves for the technical opposition/risk factor?

>>97921363
so you havent read the book, got it. you should just lead with that.

>>97921323
>>97921355
im pretty mixed on 77. it does some things really well and other things really poorly. it fixes a lot of its mistakes in the phantom liberty content, but that has a few new problems. the level of detail and verticality is pretty crazy, especially in dogtown - as cliche as it is to say, i do discover new areas every time i play. i wish theyd taken/had the time to actually flesh out a lot of that detail, instead of it being unused but extant.

on the other hand, it does a lot of frankly gay bethesda tier 'read the terminal for exposition' story telling (improved in PL)
moreover, its frankly retreading a lot of 2020 in ways that arent always that interesting. it both focuses a lot on characters who are in universe in their 80s or older, and retcons 2020s canon in weird ways. kind of weird to mix those two habits, but it ends up feeling like its not telling something totally new nor giving oldfag fans a nostalgia hit. its saved by good emotional beats, really good setpiece action moments, and fun gameplay (so long as you invest in dashing).
then gameplay wise, theres the fact that the game becomes poorly paced because people are constantly calling you with new shit - if they even waited a single in game day longer with some of the crap they call you for, it would be easier to have a naturalistic playthrough. not to mention all the lame threads leftover from earlier stages of development, like braindances.

im fairly worried for orion, since afaik the switch to unreal undid all their work on actually making night city - what i want from the sequel is for an even better night city, and im not sure starting from scratch will get that. mike said youll go somewhere new now too, and im a little worried about that as well, that they're going to spread the worldspace development too thin. doing something original will let them work totally divorced from OG content, which will either be really good or really shit. and its hard for me to feel confident

>>97921377
I know they have legal status. They even go beyond the law, esp. in the Old Combat Zone where they make their own laws. You get killed or thrown out, very simple. No jail, no court, no file.
You think Edgerunners Inc will save your lawman in there? Hah.

>>97921385
why would i bother talking about this with someone who hasnt read the book and just wants to shit out their headcanon? idgi. its free dawg

>>97921355
>The initial character creator was more in-depth, not a list of options but full customization.

Was it? The final character creator was still pretty in depth. No body sliders, but otherwise pretty in depth compared to alot of other RPGs. Even in that fake 2018 vertical slice demo it seemed pretty similar to the finished product, just with different UI and changing the way origins worked.

>Flying vehicles were on the table but Pondsmith talked them out of it- he had been part of something similar and it would have made everything much more challenging to combine and design.

Honestly I wish people would stop quoting Mike as a reliable source on a project he didn't have much to do with. I don't doubt CDPR probably toyed around with flying cars at some point and decided it was too hard to implement, but I doubt Mike was the one who made the call. Regardless I don't think they were ever some major feature cut mid development.

>>97921385
But what could be done is creating a lawman who belongs to one of the other guard factions. They'll have their ability in the region (and if they bring a squad with them, elsewhere).

>>97921381
Originally they wanted to just retcon away 2013 and 2020.
All the 2020 content was going to take place in the 2040s to stay ahead of current world. RTal talked them out of it.

>>97921390
am i the only one who knows what the lawman ability actually does and says? in the rulebook its explicit that your help isnt necessarily the NCPD, and that theres a bunch of gay bullshit where various private contractors have various agreements with each other. its why at rank 2 you summon rent a cops explicitly. 7 or so is county mounties, 5-6 is highway patrol, 9 is maxtac and 10 is spooks. even the role description says the PC doesnt have to be NCPD, they can be from a private contractor.

>>97921385
Yeah, actually. ERI is required by city ordinance to cooperate with other deputized law enforcement and NCPD. They'll back you up if only because a dead cop in their district looks bad. Whether or not they have the manpower to do it in a place as fucked as the OCZ is a different story.

If you call for backup in the OCZ, if it's not your guys swooping in like cavalry, it's probably a handful of ERI guys.

>>97916554
>Victoria Cunningham
surely this has to be a red herring...

>>97921404
Suppose the GM would have to go out of their way to prevent the ability. Contrasting to Rockers - may encounter non-fans and haters, but lawman has to be in a place where he gets support or doesn't. I can see myself giving them support in public spaces so long as they haven't caused harm or don't wear NCPD/hated uniform.

Say, what would happen if Tygers-lite or Golden Dragons choose to not aid a few cops? NCPD could either launch a revenge strike, or choose to put pressure on the council seat. Or they could put it all under a rug

>>97921445
damn, if only there was some way to determine whether or not a lawman would get the support they requested, some sort of way that involves chance but which factors in their reputation, rank and abilities, because after all, people are more likely to assist a big shot than some rookie who crapped his pants... maybe... maybe you could roll a D10 and see if it was equal or less than the rank of their role ability?!?!???!?

>>97921460
Hah, maybe.
But even then it's flexible. Say, you fight against an enemy with Backup at x rank; they may call for help and it may even be on its way but it'll just be too late on a failed roll.

>>97921091
Shut the fuck up James
>>97921072
Yeah? Try to come up with something that isnt a skill boost, or a weapons cache I dare you.
>B-but muh access to the terminal
Mechanically anon, mechanically

>>97921466
Fundamentally the issue we're running into is that Backup as a Role Ability is an abstraction. When a Lawman calls Backup a few things are known:
- He is able to call in Backup via some communication device he has; only if all his avenues of communication are cut should the Role Ability fail to function
- He is calling someone that may help; Whether it's his buddies at the Precinct or members of his gang or so on, only rarely does his backup call actually take the form of some kind of open call where he doesn't have any idea who might answer; in which case any reasonable authority should arrive as backup. Only in the case where communication cannot be made to a reasonable should it fail to function

So if an NCPD cop calls backup and asks for beat cops to help with dealing with even something like Tygers on their own turf, it would be wrong for the Ref to say "you can't get beat cops here because the Tygers are in charge here". His backup will be coming from another district then, or be off-duty cops coming to save his ass, or whatever makes sense for the ability.

For a most extreme example; say you call in backup in the NorCal Military Base and for some absurd scenario you have a good reason. If the dice say they'll show up, the chief hail threw you a hail mary and they'll be there. As a point of order, I wouldn't recommend calling in renta-cops if you're in trouble on a Military Base, but if you call in a AV, that AV is going to come in.

>>97921488
I keep saying Half Lawman Rank as a skill bonus to any social skill or facedowns you use acting (or pretending you're acting) in an official capacity. Call it Authority. The only string attached is that if you're abusing your authority, if the person you're using it on knows (and I mean, actually knows, like with proof or directly being told) you don't have jurisdiction or approval, or if you're suspended, it automatically fails your checks.

>>97921488
I think that crime terminal should absolutely have its own list.
>lvl 10 has access to VIP records and blackmail material, including execs, councilors, maybe even the surveillance networks that only the schizos speak of
>lvl 5 has access to all criminals who don't have law firm or your boss guarding their file
>lvl 1 has access to bounty hunter and cop apps but not full membership
Something like that.
Special equipment, forensic labs etc. are perks of the field too.
One of the hidden perks or banes should be the boss NPC you will have.

>>97921517
if you call cops to fight MPs, at the very least youre in for a reaming after the fact - it does explicitly state that if you abuse the ability you can face punishment from your boss.

as a gm, unless hes calling cops to fight cops, id probably just let him do it, and probably take into consideration what district hes in. If hes on base and not being a naughty boy himself, MPs arrive in an amount which balances out to equivalent to whatever he could normally summon, etc.

of course, i wouldnt expect edgerunners inc to help a cop gun down some genred kiddos, but i think it would be fair for, say, sixth street to help him if theres some toecutters attacking Heywood. It just might reflect poorly on him and his department

im just trying to make the ability make more sense, not less, than the base RED rulebook where county mounties can show up in the hotzone

>>97921560
I bet Militech is drooling at the opportunity to save poor little NorCal from its independence and wants more times it "saves the day" with ncpd sucking their thumb.
Being saved by Militech won't reflect well on the precinct. But it's one of those things where you get chewed but not burned.
https://youtu.be/vvwYO5wOm_o?is=qeybds9Qs9kcqila

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speaking of, these bastards are stone cold killers. those are mean stats.

>>97921569
which makes it completely retarded that the NorCal military invited them to stay on the base...

>>97921517
>>97921524
You actually delivered, neat.
>abstraction
Yeah it leaves it all on shoulders of the GM-player communication, fiat and all that. Even NCPD wont help you when you're inside norcal fighting ACPAs.
>Authority
I'd apply same logic as you've used in your first paragraph - it might be a bad idea to use authority of Iron Sights on Red Chrome Legion territory.
>crime terminal
Hmm, base it off the fixer inner circling power and I think you're golden.
PS: I've seen these rules in at least two different homebrew, I guess one of them would be yours?

>>97921580
I just came up with it- will have to add to my homebrew rules when I get to my pc though.
But I've seen lots of crime series once upon a time.

>>97921575
>50 HP
>can't bullet dodge

Still jobs to a well made PC straight outta character creation.

>>97921622
>Cyberware: GM's choice
TUP popup shields or Reflex Co-processors are definitely permitted.
Dodging bullets in a bike is featured in the video game (end of Act 1), so I'd allow it.

>>97921622
>a well made PC
Not every character needs to be a super soldier.
Style over substance, anon.
Punks who flare their afro or mohawk and get killed by an aimed shot are way cooler than agent Smith copies.

>>97921622
>16 evasion
>16 resist drugs
>15 sp
>whatever ware you want
slap on infra vision, a coprocessor, and maybe teleoptics and interface plugs for smart gun+ammo. how many characters at chargen have 16 for combat skills and dodging? and that's without even going for a popup GL.

>>97921575
Are you supposed to negate flak stats from those numbers, or are they already counted?

>>97921645
I assume T.UP means -2 penalties instead of -4. So they have Base 18 bumped down to Base 16.

>>97921626
>>97921633
>Grapples you

Now what?

>>97921658
I was thinking of giving them the cop style linear frame from Black Chrome (12 body + mobility aid) and having them grab problems by the throat whilst on a bike. Unless you're also a very big boy - fat or borged - you're going along for a ride as you get choked.

>Aurore's mom or grandmom runs a district
Interesting.

>>97921658
*undoes the buttflap on my pants (one handed btw) and shits all over both of us* roll resist torture faggot

>>97921579
They're guarding a hot mess (mega-dungeon). It's likely nobody in NorCal or Night City wanted to deal with it. Militech just leveraged the situation.

>>97921833
which district?

>>97922023
Old Japantown.

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>>97922090
Also runs a major corp in Pacifica.
Militech really is busy backstabbing those who work for them.

>>97922114
Pacifica Confederation* no direct link to Pacifica district.

>>97922114
... militech?

>>97922242
Cassel twins worked with Militech on the project. Their reward is getting murdered by FIA skinwalkers, both of whom were also betrayed by NUSA/Militech and FIA.
Incorrect mission parameters are also betrayal of V but that's sort of the lesson of the DLC.

>>97922258
did you know seeing unrelated statements as related is a sign of schizophrenia?

>>97922346
>unrelated
Oh I just jumped the shark there a bit - since I initially saw it as the Pacifica district being her playground too.
But Militech is known to shoot its own in the back - their business model is akin to how US treats its veterans.

>>97921645
Already counted.

>>97916999
To be fair, RED takes during right after the 4th corporate war, which was basically world ending/fucking up event. So during RED it might as well be a post-apocalyptic setting.
So them bringing back execution by hanging does make sense to a degree. Also you could look at this from a more morbid pencil pusher POV, hanging criminals and other undesirables is cheaper to do because you won't waste bullets doing it.

>>97916373
>yes, but it's still weird to have them be so absent. Militech and Lazarus have filled the void somewhat but it's odd
The reason why Militech didn't fill the void in Night City as much is because the people of Night City just hate the corporation due to its connection to the NUSA and how they tried to take over NC by force and forcefully re-annex and integrate the city and its territory back into the NUSA.
The people there basically view Militech and NUSA asshole aggressors who tried to invade their home and forcefully make them NUSA citizens.

>>97917101
>77 doesn't even have furries without mods.
>all furries became extinct during the 4th corporate war
Maybe we were too harsh on Arasaka and Militech...

>>97923075
Nah, that's all on Johnny SilverBulletHand

>gave an elite a 16 autofire base on a whim
>he still can't hit shit unless it's in his Goldilocks band
Fucking trap skill I swear to God. Carry a shotgun

>>97923157
>he still can't hit shit unless it's in his Goldilocks band
Or his foe attempts to dodge and rolls poorly.
Until you're in the ideal zone, you can also use other things. Plus, a bike lets you get to the goldilocks zone.
It's a very powerful foe.

>>97923157
This is why MOVE is important for autofire shooters.

>>97923289
Makes sense. It was a chaingun guy so I made him slower.

>>97923402
Also a good reason why a lot of machine guns are mounted on vehicles. Maneuvering into ideal ranges is a lot easier in a truck than on foot.

>>97923439
Sure thing
Should tracers give you a +1 to autofire?

>>97923469
Tracer Ammo is in Solo of Fortune 2045 and that is exactly what it does.

>>97923492
Sweet.

>>97923439
But trucks can't dodge! Doesn't that make them weak?

>>97923630
tech upgrade the truck to dodge bullets

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Would you look at this!

>>97923768
Please stop trying to make elflines a thing

>>97924008
the three things i wish they'd stop trying to make a thing:
>Elflines Online
>Roller Derby
>"Doomba"

>>97923768
please keep trying to make elflines a things

>>97924008
To me it sounds more like a GM can take your characters for a long trip away. It's like jail, really, but much better.

>>97924030
>session begins
>"You all wake up in a forest, in the bodies of graceful and lithe elves"
>"You are in Elfines Online, but you don't remember logging in, or even having an account"
>Cyberpunk character sheets are thrown in the trash
>spend the next two years playing a "trapped in a virtual MMORPG" isekai plot

>>97924041
I will admit I considered a hook for a job introducing a rival netrunner who manages to trap your crew's netrunner in an Elfnines tutorial instance, looping constantly for 17 hours.

Give the netrunner an exhaustion penalty and a single point of Wilderness Survival and they go to find the guy to push his car into Morro Bay.

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>>97924041
>Dwarven hell

>>97924030
To repeat something that shouldn't need repeating: If you sit down to play Cyberpunk(tm) Red(tm) why on god's green earth would you then have to play generic brand DnD(tm). I'd love to be a grog and talk about it being antithetical to the attitude era or some shit, but the reality is that it's as simple as why would you even play this if better alternatives exist? Nothing stops you from saying that your characters are in Call of Cthulhu-land and switch to your favourite edition of CoC and say it's inside a digital realm. Imagine sitting down to play DND and an evil witch curses you to play a module in Traveller. What in the actual fuck? And I know I am preaching to the converted but by jove I am still really upset about it.

>>97924105
>If you sit down to play Cyberpunk(tm) Red(tm) why on god's green earth would you then have to play generic brand DnD(tm).
Never said you should-! I view it as a trinket of the world. It's either a masterpiece within the confines of the story, or it's slop.
However, it's now a usable story element.
>Your mom was kidnapped and placed in Elflines Online - you must do xyz to get her out
>The foe will interrogate you with extreme methods, and will also place you in a safe-keeping box (Elflines Online) for the next six months
>GM wants to do a timeskip and scams the party
None of these require even a single sentence of Elflines gameplay.

>>97924136
>GM wants to do a timeskip and scams the party
Getting them all evicted when they were gone is a pretty ballsy move. Might kill a campaign.

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I think this is contradicting itself.

>>97924200
What exactly is the contradiction you see?

>>97924219
Oh wait, it says County not Country. My bad.

>>97923768
>>97924041
Ok, so is Elflines online just a re-skin of the old Dungeon interface software from CPK2013 ?

>>97924105
>Imagine sitting down to play DND and an evil witch curses you to play a module in Traveller.
That would be super fucking tight actually.

>>97924700
I join forces with the witch and play Traveller with her in her little hut, she clearly just wants someone to play :)

Pass me some toad legs and give me an Engineer (J-drive), Maggothilda.

>>97924105
>Imagine sitting down to play DND and an evil witch curses you to play a module in Traveller.
Well you see in the AD&D 1e DMG there were rules for crossing over to Boot Hill, Gangbusters, and Gamma World (and maybe Star Frontiers) so actually this is a return to tradition.

I keep waiting for the Elfline Online rules for magic as a way for RTal to try and backport Witcher material into Cyberpunk and fold in Shadowrun players.

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>>97925074
>The awakening happens but it just turns everyone into elves

I'm making a rocker for 2020 but I'm not sure what to equip them with. I though of combining a guitar and gun like the SMG briefcase in stormfront and maybe a cyberaudio suite but not much besides that. Any cool gear or cyberware you guys recommend?

>>97925339
Cyber-audio module, voice stress annalyser, voice synthesizer, Wearmann, audio/video recorder, adrenal boosters if you don't want a neuralware eating your noggin', and of course fashionware like techhair or light tattoos

>>97925074
so far the only interesting thing elflines has even gestured towards is rabids leaking into the game

>>97925699
i wouldn't be surprised if RABIDs invading ELO and killing everyone is what reveals that the CitiNets aren't as segregated from the Old NET as Ziggurat claims, which will lead to them getting shut down by Netwatch

Is it sincere comedy or just laziness when the Petrochem and SovOli locations have the exact same description except with the names swapped?

>>97925744
it's an attempt at it, because they do it at literally every opportunity. it's flanderisation. I found it tedious pretty quick - it's not like we don't have a lot of unique characterisation for these corps and especially Billy Joe

>>97925776
there's a SovOil paint factory in Santo Domingo that doesn't have a Petrochem neighbor so thankfully there is at least one case where they don't do the bit

What if SovOil and Petrochem are the same company - like democrats and republicans in the states?

>>97925709
>and killing everyone
No. Bartmoss/Rabids would instead launch the sequel

Thinking of getting into Cyberpunk. Is Red a good edition? I’ll likely be GMing for my group if I choose to start it. What are the pros and cons compared to other editions?

>>97926413
RED is made for new players to get into. It is simplified compared to the very crunchy 2020 edition which was hyperfixated on simulationist levels of detail. Because of this simplification, it is sometimes considered "watered down" and more "action movie/video gamey" than the more hardcore and far more lethal 2020. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing depends on individual taste. Both games are, at their core, still more or less the same: roll d10s + Stat + Skill for everything. You're an outlier of society with a gun and an armored vest ready to shoot people for money, paid to you by corporations and gangsters and special interest groups.

Don't worry about Cyberpunk editions that aren't RED or 2020. They're either superfluous or irrelevant.

>>97926413
the pros is red is simpler and less deadly, the cons are that it's simpler and less deadly. the roles are also much better balanced, and netrunning is much less fo a disaster but it's not quite, uh, smooth. 2020 has a L O T more content, and if you want to run a campaign of cybermercs doing black ops shit then it's much better.

Red has its wonkiness, but 9 times out of ten it's come from a desire to keep things fairly simple. theres also a LOT of free 'DLC' pdfs, which canbecome overwhelming, but a lot of it's quite handy. the DLC about the customisable player home base is definitely essential. I'd also recommend "finding" a copy of the most recent night city sourcebook, cover is the OP. it fleshes out the slightly scatter shot setting. If you find your players want more guns and deadlier encounters, then check out the three "hardened" DLC for NPC statblocks and the solo of fortune 2045 from interface red, as well as gunmass.

finally, I find the Tales from the Red Street stories to be a decent assortment of one shots. I always recommend 'dont have a stitch' for an introductory game, as its simple and hits all the bases.

PS: you'll want to run it on a grid. trust me, the to hit system is done via range bands, and its just a mess in theatre of mind

>>97926452
should note that 2020 is really only "far more lethal" for players who don't know how to game it. people who know all the ins and outs, and have access to all the equipment added in sourcebooks and supplements are very capable of smashing 2020's balance to pieces. RED is overall designed with an autistic obsession with balance, for better and for worse.

>>97917841
>That's why it's so weird and semi-optimistic, but with a heavy dose of fatalism.
I don't think the hope on the horizon is really that whacky. I think of it like the Bronx in the 70s and 80s. The whole place is going to shit, the city won't help, so what happens? The people get together and starts creating their own groups to rebuild themselves. Literal street gangsters working with their community to help clear out burnt out buildings to open up new housing and what not.
Sometimes shit gets so bad that people have no choice but to come together to make things better, and seeing that happen is almost inherently hopeful. I think that's the idea that RED kind of wants to display but can't really follow through.

>>97926501
hm, I mostly agree but when I say "more lethal" I mean for everyone. 2020 is a bit of rocket tag. RED it can take a few rounds of shooting to knock anyone down, but in 2020 friend and foe alike can fold like a bag of wet piss. unbalancing 2020 is - usually - about ensuring you always win the game of rocket tag

>>97926413
Some people have mentioned lethality as a difference between 2020 and RED; I feel I should make something clear: RED being 'less lethal' generally means 'there are less than five things in the game that can reduce you to mortally wounded in a single turn'. Most things will need to shoot you at least twice to force death saves, which are not 'saves' in the sense there are multiple you have to fail as much as each time you roll them you're checking to see if you are permanently dead. You do not want to spend any time there; even a minmaxed character is looking at a 1 in 10 shot of just waking up dead on their turn-- most softer characters are more looking at a coin flip.

>>97926497
>Tales from the Red Street stories to be a decent assortment of one shots.
Eeeeeeehhhhhh I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to say decent. They're all really, really railroady and the template that they use is kind of fucking shit.

>>97926413
>Combat
RED is autism tier balanced in a way 90% of "builds" fall into mediocricity because of how much stronger the remaining 10% is. I guess there isnt really a way to make a fucking missile launcher balanced.
>Rules
Surprise, surprise the RED rules are really weirdly made. Allow me to explain - in general sense they are really simple, but you are expected to have a knowledge about pretty much all other ruling, by which I mean most of the time the rules state the exceptions from general rules.
>Corebook
Is badly formatted, to the point of it being a meme. There are sections that are fucking A like lifepaths are the best goddamn instance of backstories generator I've ever seen, and at the same time night market repeats like 13 pages of equipment. That being said, once you read it, it's pretty easy to navigate as you simply skip the lore and such.
>App
Oftentimes slept on, it's really well made and easily puts major players (like WOTC) efforts to make a game app into shame.
>fast combat
Not really sure how to call that, but RED turn takes like 5 seconds if your player isnt retarded, knows the range bands and holds attention to what is happening in the battlefield, and 15 seconds if you do whacky stuff like martial arts moves, crits and so on, or the player simply isnt that smart. Compared to dnd 20-60 seconds per character with martials having triple attacks, wizards checking spellbooks n shit it really is fast as fuck. Now, I've seen faster systems, namely Alien quicked the combat so much I dont really see anything that could be trimmed, but for a cyberpunk genre RED really is quick.
Thing is, 2020 is just as quick but in a much different way - you see, it's realistic, or at least as real as a world with cyberarms and 16mm pistols can be. This means, that (as it has happened IRL) if someone figues way to stop bullets (kevlar IRL, subdermal armour in CP) people who are out there for the kill simply start using armour piercing.

>>97926413 (You)
>>97926833 (me)
My point is, if you got hit in 2020 you fucking die.
If you wear bodyarmour (including being a borg, subdermal plating and such) you dont, unless you're hit with 7.62 full auto, then you do.
If you make some ludicrously high SP "build (I've seen people stacking various sources of SP up to like 40, maybe 45? for reference this universe instance of mechas has like 60 top, and tanks have maybe 80 at best I think) You dont, unless youre hit with a missile launcher or a tank shell, then you do. But I dont think you'd expect to survive that even as a borged out person.
Now, in RED if you got hit you lose HP, sometimes you get a critical injury that could possibly sent you down the death spiral, not die instantly.
Getting critted forces you to rethink your strategy and life choices, as you may lose ability to see, move extremely slow, cannot use two armed weapons and so on - point is even crits dont serve as instant death (which is served by a 9mm in 2020 btw) but rather as a way to introduce some chaos into the game (cause they're mostly random).
As for balance... Hmm... I really do like the balance of RED, in fact when I tried to critique it (ergo run some numbers and actively tried different builds while playing the fucking game itself) I only discovered that it's relly well designed. I'd like to tackle the LAJ meta if I may, as an example, since you've got more than enough context for it from this thread alone.
>You've got light, medium and heavy version of this combat kevlar meshed jacket
Light has no penalty, but offers little protection yada yada. But wait, heavy and medium both have the same penalty. Ok, this is set off by heavy costing more (and taking longer to repair) and being harder to get - essentially you can get just one more point of SP while getting 5 times the price, so what's the point? Even paying a tech to upgrade the medium to reach SP level of heavy is easier, why ever bother having heavy?

>>97926413 (you)
>>97926833 (me)
>>97926858 (me vol 2 electric boogaloo)
ok, this is getting too long I promise I'll be quick.
>why ever bother having heavy?
Because you can upgrade it further dummy, and then you reach, and look next point of SP (which is 15) would be equivalent to Flak.
But hey, flak cost the same, but has heftier penalty of -4 (pretty crippling, but fitting and I say it as a person who wore real bodyarmour for prolonged periods of time) meaning you pretty much cannot hit fucking anything unless you boost yourself with chrome/gear/drugs/whatever.
My point is, that everything just clicks, and design that might look retarded by a glance is actually done so good you cannot find a way to make it better.
It plays out into the wider design of the game
Medium pistols (think wondernines) kill civilians, bodyamour stops pistols, mercs kill armoured personnel with shells slugs and bigger bullets, flaks or metal gear stops even big bullets, so now you've entered the big league - security chugs grenades at you. And more impostantly, nothing in RED, not vehicles, not ACPAs (mechas) nor borgs survive rockets. As God intended - in everlasting arms race it's the offence that always have the final say.

Anyway I've drifted a bit from your topic, let's get back to your post.
>Character progression
neither RED nor 2020 realy have any. I could go into the mechanics, but I wont. General gist is that you start the game around 40-80% (depending on whether you minmax or not) of maximum possible firepower and there's not really much about how more strong, or deadly can you get. You dont even start the game at rank 1 out of 10, but 4. Ultimately both are roleplay heavy games, and as much as I love to sperg out on combat ins and outs - a good favour is worth way more than a rocket launcher.
If anything that's the only lesson I'd like for you to remember about these games.

>>97925074
they released magic rules for Elflines a while ago under the name Magic Returns

>>97926893
>RED doesn't have any Character progression
Literally posted it in this thread: >>97923768
Then you proceed to transition into your Elf doll form like "Gentleman" and so many others.

>>97926893
well I'd say that progression in both red and 2020 is about gear and chrome. you use money to buy better guns to get more money, etc. I like this more than DnD style progression, because it's symmetrical with NPCs, so it's very easy for the GM to give you a proper challenge if they aren't retarded. Anything your players do you can do. I like that philosophy. and the players can never reach such levels of bullshit that you can't throw something from maximum metal at them

at the same time, unless they're retarded or you're intentionally trying to be unfair, they always have a chance

>>97927337
Skills start at 0-6, and cap at 10.
There's even a skill that lets you chug drugs, some of which give +4 (total) stats. Tuneup, medtech, nomad and fixer are important contacts even if you didn't have any of those skills. Solo for a fighter would also be character progression.

>>97926893
Money is the issue. Exec and Nomad scale their wealth from a stat, others from gm.

>>97926452
>>97926497
>>97926633
>>97926833
Thanks for the advice, everyone.
I guess I should have prefaced that my group’s primary game right now is Call of Cthulhu, so high lethality isn’t really a problem for us. I think I’m leaning RED specifically for it being less deadly just to give us a change of pace, as well as ease of access to books and such (I’m big on having physical books, so being able to buy it new vs. having to eBay/used bin hunt for 2020 stuff appeals to me).

>>97927657
anon-kun-chan-sama, rtal does print on demand for their 2020 books. I got the original NC sourcebook and deep space that way

>>97926833
2020 is definitely not even close to how quick RED is at resolving.
>>97927337
And RED leans significantly more towards xp based progression as opposed to 2020’s gear based.