This thread is for a open OSR chat. For games based on or even inspired by the pre-2000 games. These can be pure retroclones or neoclones. Even games inspired by the movement.This thread isn't for conflicts or debates on what is and is not OSR. It's about the wider OSR communities.There is the another chat for those of you who prefer OSR games strictly inspired by the first decade, that can be found here >>98004530Please do not troll either thread. But do feel free to cross post the new osrg thread here for those who might enjoy it as well Now the Thread Question: Why do you feel BX and BX neoclones have so dominated the OSR scene?
>>98039462Welcome to the latest definitely not-a-general hijack thread spammed by the board's greatest schizo, Fishfag.While the old thread is still on page 4.Reminder that the actual /osrg/ can currently be found here:>>98004530>>98004530>>98004530This is just a containment thread for the insane filled with samefagging, and for celebrating the eternal triumph of the BROSR. I suggest reporting it for spamming / flooding at your leisure.
>>98039462>Why do you feel BX and BX neoclones have so dominated the OSR scene?They got really big during the G+ era, it was easier to teach and less fiddly so it didn't scare the artfags that were the predominant reason OSR became so marketable.
>>98039462>For games based on or even inspired by the pre-2000 games.Sorry, but this is an inaccurate definition of what OSR is. If you want to post an OSR thread, you should be aware that the OSR covers only old-school D&D from 1974-1983 and clones closely based on those editions. And there's already a general for that, which you even linked. So this thread is clearly superfluous.
Adding this to my repertoire of canned responses to fishfag's schizo theories.
>>98039516I already linked that, it's in the OP you didn't read >>98039529 G+ was a wild era for gaming. I think BX taught a whole new generation gaming didn't have to be crunchy as fuck.
>>98039533 (cont'd)Or perhaps you meant that this is a thread for *non*-OSR games that are nevertheless inspired by the OSR? In that case, that thread also already exists; it's the /nsrg/: >>97989049Either way, you goofed and posted an unnecessary thread. I advise you do delete it yourself.
>>98039516>>98039533>>98039542They made a polite OP this time. Just let people make threads and move on with your life.
>>98039462>Now the Thread Question: Why do you feel BX and BX neoclones have so dominated the OSR scene?To be brutally honest?1e kinda sucks. It doesn't totally suck, but it's definitely got enough baggage that makes it a hard sell.
>>98039542>/osrg/ worships Matt FinchLMAO how the fuck did he ever reach that conclusion? Is that just based on people telling him that Finch and Marshall published the first OSR game? I know he's retarded, but yikes.
>>98039557I am not even the guy they think I am. I was just trying to beat him to the punch as he has an axe to grind. I don't care what the osrg folks believe, I know I am not welcome there is all
>>98039574You are 100% trollcow. Fuck off back to your dead thread.
>>98039557No. Not as long as they keep pushing the misdefinition of OSR. There's only one reason to insist on the fake definition, and that's because the fag 2etard wants to topic slide /osrg/ by confusing people about what OSR means.Again if he just wants to talk about the games there's /nsrg/ for that. If he wants to talk about 2e, he can restart /2eg/. If he just wants some vague open thread without antagonizing /osrg/ he can re-re-reboot /todd/. None of these generals were trolled by /osrg/ at all.
>>98039560The OSR versions of 1e make it a little better, but the fact is 1e is a bit of an oddball edition. It was made for a method of play that never caught on.
>>98039582Nice, we're at the point where you're firmly saying "All my trolling IS just an effort to try and convince this board that OSR means pre-2e, as opposed to pre-3e like the rest of the world believes."That makes you and your crusade firmly and objectively wrong. Congrats.
>>98039542lmao damn, your output on these image macros is quick. I suggest you spend your time actually talking about games instead.
>>98039567>LMAO how the fuck did he ever reach that conclusion?Just his schizo logic at work again:1. He took a phrase from the Primer in which Finch said "this primer is written particularly for people who started gaming in the 2000s" or something like that.2. He deduced from it that it means Finch thinks AD&D 2e is OSR. Which it doesn't, but let's say for the sake of discussion that it does.3. Since he has to use this as a "proof" that 2e is OSR, he started claiming that /osrg/ worships Finch, worships OSRIC, and worships the primer. Which, as you know, is ridiculous, because we're dunking on all of those literally all the time.4. Then he samefagged a dozen posts replying to himself saying>Fuuuuuck I win sorry we win. Totally not fishfag.>I'm a genius sorry we're a genius. Totally not fishfag.
See? Didn't take long to make him reveal his intentions.>>98039593>trollingNope.>effort to try and convinceNope. OSR *means* pre-Dragonlance (and certainly not 2e), that's not in any kind of question or debate.>pre-3e like the rest of the world believesNobody believes that but you, Fishfag.
>>98039597No, he saw the most recent version of the Finch primer where Finch explicitly says he considers 2e part of the OSR.https://www.mythmeregames.com/products/quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming-pdf-free
>>98039594Rich, coming from a retard who isn't even able to create a B/X character sheet that isn't chock full of errors.
>>98039607>he saw the most recent version of the Finch primerAh, thanks about that. Doesn't change anything though, given how much we dunk of Finch and his primer.
>>98039607...he thinks anyone respects the opinion of "Ancestries"-era Matt Finch?HA HA HA HA HA
>>98039626>"Ancestries"-era Matt FinchSeriously. The cretin finally jumped on the SJW bandwagon right as everybody else was getting off. AND he got criticised by the fags on RPGnet for still not being woke enough.Hilarious.
>>98039597Buddy, you seem quite upset.You're also laughably stupid.Not only in his 2008 primer is it clear Finch considered "modern" games to mean 3e and on by him saying as such, if he was intending to mark the important divide between modern and old school as 2e, it would have been important to indicate that. Otherwise, there would be some pretty big ambiguity in a primer made to try and explain the difference between old school and modern.And, to cap it off, in his 2024 update, he just outright says "2e is old school."As for you worshiping Finch, that comes down to you believing OSRIC is the first OSR game.The first OSR game wasn't OSRiC.But, even assuming it was, that means the guy who made the first OSR game believed what made a game Old School was not your "OSR is just 'not 2e'" personal definition, but the broader more widely accepted one.That means that even from your declared start of the OSR, the OSR community included 2e in the Old School category.You gonna tell me Finch wasn't part of the OSR community now?
>>98039626>No, we swear, our interest in OSR stuff isn't totally just a culture war proxy! We have an extremely coherent definition of OSR which excludes 2nd edition, but includes LOTFP and ACKS! It doesn't matter that we disagree with the guy who made two of the first retroclones (including the very first) and several highly regarded adventures!
>>98039637>you seem quite upset
>>98039637>clear Finch considered "modern" games to mean 3eLiterally nobody gives a shit what Finch thinks a "modern" game is. See here:>>98039542>>98039542>>98039542
>>98039637>As for you worshiping Finch, that comes down to you believing OSRIC is the first OSR game.So you don't know what "worhip" means either. We'll add it to your long list of misuses of the word "fallacy", fishfag.
>>98039643I'm not the one who scrambled to make an image disavowing the guy you think made the first OSR game, to try and exclude him from the OSR community.The OSR community has always included people who think 2e is OSR.
>>98039641>We have an extremely coherent definition of OSR which excludes 2nd edition, but includes LOTFP and ACKS!Exactly.>It doesn't matter that we disagree with the guy who made two of the first retroclones (including the very first)Correct.Couldn't have said it better myself.
>>98039582You shit-fling in all of those threads, even before anyone who even looks like your boogeyman shows up. You are actually mindbroken.
>>98039662>oh bloo bloo, only use the most literal definitions please, you're upsetting my autism!Hell, you're the guy who keeps trying to put him on a pedestal as the guy who made the first OSR game. I just think he was a known figure that was an undeniable part of the OSR community.
>>98039666>scrambled to make an image disavowing the guyWe disavow Finch daily, fishfag. The image is to mock you for how full of shit and retarded you are, fishfag.>to try and exclude him from the OSR communityGo back to plebbit with that "community" bullshit.More importantly, we're not excluding Finch from anything. We're just saying he's very, very far from perfect.
>>98039666>the OSR community.None of those anons. This I think is the sticking point. There isn't a singular one of those and trying to treat any thread like it is beholden to this imaginary community is the problem. There's /osrg/ for one definition, this thread seemed to have a polite OP talking about differences, there's /nusrg/ if people want to talk about those, not really sure why anyone would need to go into threads just to argue about definitions. I understand the historical animosity generated over years of trying to push 2nd ed in a place it wasn't welcome, but don't see any reason for the conflict to continue as long as you kids keep your hands on your own side of the car.
>>98039669Please then, enlighten me and anyone lurking, what is the basis for your definition of the OSR? If it's what you think the earliest OSR creators and the earliest days of Dragonsfoot believed the OSR to be, then you have one hell of a counter example.
>>98039641>We have an extremely coherent definition of OSR which excludes 2nd edition, but includes LOTFP and ACKS!Correct for once, Fishfag! It's not even hard to create such a definition!
>>98039678>trying to put him on a pedestallmaothe bullshit you desperately try to come up with
>>98039688Then what is it and what is its historical basis? Tell me again.
>>98039684>don't see any reason for the conflict to continueThe conflict won't stop until fishfag is still on /tg/.
>>98039653You want to play a game of "find posts that recommend Matt Finch's primer in the /osrg/"?
>>98039684Because their definition has no internal consistency, and this website is full of autists. Of course there's going to be users that get pissed off when they notice that.
>>98039684Polite hadn't been tried, I thought it would fails as the osrg can't allow open discussion. But eh, was worth a shot. Got two people before they flooded the thread
>>98039704>Someone said something in 2023.Wow, that's all you were able to find?Thanks for confirming our point, fishfag.
>>98039702"Fishfag" didn't start shitting up this thread, not did he make it. So it doesn't seem he is the core problem
>>98039674>You shit-fling in all of those threadsNope! Go ahead and have a look at the current /nsrg/, it's doing great, very peaceful. /2eg/ had an avowed friendship with /osrg/ and the only troll in there was you trying to rally them to assault /osrg/ as your private army and failing catastrophically. /todd/ likewise.
>>98039684>I understand the historical animosity generated over years of trying to push 2nd ed in a place it wasn't welcome,Except there's an insane effort to pretend that was the case when it wasn't, including pretending only one person would think 2e is OSR.And, now it's come to light if it just one person that believes that, apparently he also made the first OSR game.
>>98039705>their definition has no internal consistencyNAYRT but what's supposed to be the inconsistency in "D&D editions from before 1984, and clones that copy those"? Seems very straightforward to me. It's literally one short sentence.
>>98039543>I think BX taught a whole new generation gaming didn't have to be crunchy as fuck.It has been quite interesting to see the pendulum swing around from various >AD&D rules heavy >B/X lights >Ultralights >Art projects in rulebook format >2nd & 3rd editions adding rules back in Not just OSR stuff, various indi games and wargaming have been in similar movement for a bit now. There's always clusters of people who continue playing their preferred methods as they always have and some people who catch onto a popular thing and decide they like it enough to stick with it, but the fashion of it is neat to see over a few decades.
>>98039712Yeah, sorry about that OP. You tried, but this flamewar is going to fill any thread on the topic until mods step in. Maybe try again outside of peak Euro-posting hours, a couple of the /osrg/ guys seem most active in that time slot.
>>98039704>a guy said some shit in 2023>this guy also recommended Principia Apocrypha, a primer the /osrg/ has always hated and considered FOEGYGYyyyeeeeaaaaaah buddy, I don't know if...
>>98039724NTA but ACKs is a new clone with a lot of 3e mechanics. It's less OSR than 2e by a fucking mile. So yeah it's inconsistent
>>98039715>everyone who knew what OSR actually is has left the osrg 2023 at the latestthanks for confirming our point
>>98039724ACKS and LotFP both diverge heavily from OD&D, B/X, and AD&D 1e.
>>98039712I think the problem is thread/post ratio to games played and content about that. Its been abysmal for a while and it shows, so there isn't really enough to sustain several generals with that much overlap. Its been a consistent issue with /nusrg/ and various 2nd ed threads. I think making specific threads about whatever questions come up in those areas might be more fruitful if you're looking for answers to specific questions but if you're looking for a community forming sort of thing it needs people who actually play the games talking about that and making stuff to share. I can't tell if /osrg/ is a lot less gameplay oriented now or everyone is just cagey about it because everyone's gotten into taking screenshots of each other to pursue jihad with.
>>98039715We're just getting started.Also, I'd actually think older posts have a bit more clout in this regard, if we were asking "what did the /osrg/ think before it got infested by a few trolls who decided they wanted to deliberately change it."Here's something from 2018.
>>98039725It has been, and yeah not just OSR followed that. Also the rise of narrative games and the changes in pop culture really effect it.It's been wild to see how a game like 5e dominates gaming, but also is surrounded by light games and narrative heavy games.It honestly has been a good time for gaming
>>98039734not only that but it's entire selling point is some strategy-game-lite boardgamey shieetthat's entirely against what OSR is all about, being the dudes to go down a fucking dungeonhell, the single anecdote ACKS is mostly known for on this board is the fish-smocking incident, an entire fucking session of itthese people would argue smocking fish is the way oldschool D&D was played
>>98039727Yeah, didn't think about the timezones there. They have an really annoying troll who shows up between 11 pm and 12am EST.And sadly the mods protect the osrg trolls. There is no other term to use for them. They are trolls waging a war they can't really win. Very lost cause type of thing
>>98039762>it's entire selling point>shieet>smocking>smocking Wow.You're totally more than one person and totally not recognisable.
>>98039748Yeah, Ideally it would be one thread, but the trolls won't allow that. They have this jihad to rewrite history and will allow zero discussion about it. I know reddit is hated by folks here but they have thriving OSR communities as it's open and trolls are not allowed to run wild
>>98039769>only one person makes errors when posting on an popuanian dunk-rolling boardyou are truly insane in the most medical and objective sense there is
>>98039766I think it's less "protect", and more "don't give enough of a shit to intervene one way or the other." If they were actually protecting what's left of the /osrg/ posters, the actual Fishfag would be getting his posts deleted way more often.
>>98039769It's odd as fuck they include ACK but not stuff like c&c and 2e. I would not be shocked if most of the troll posters showed up as ACKs was getting banned on the major sites.
>>98039786>Yeah, Ideally it would be one threadThis is not what I was trying to say. Ideally people would play games enough to have various threads. So if you want an alternative to /osrg/, get ye gaming.
>>98039799I would have agreed if they didn't warn people for flagging those trolls when they openly say they are trolling . They have at lest one of the mods on thier side
>>98039557"They" should take a hint from the fact that all of "their" threads keep getting deleted.
>>98039752I will, at least, always appreciate 5E, stranger things, CR and the nerd boom for making it totally OK to talk about ttrpgs and wargames at my trades job compared to how stigmatized it was growing up.
>>98039542>we actually don't agree with one of the people who literally started the OSR>we have our own understanding of OSR>you aren't playing OSR unless you get XP from taxes and smocking fishmy fren it's time for a reality checkalso this resembles a funny joke>Honey, please be careful, they say there is this nutjob on the highway going the wrong direction into upcoming traffic>Only one nutjob? there are thousands of them here!
>>98039802OSR is very niche, it's only really supported because folks buy and read more games then they play.They are often used for short one shot campaigns at best.I think OSE is the current king of OSR. It even has its own popular setting that gets traction. But most OSR guys are just things folks like to look at and may run at some point, some day, if they get time
>>98039809absolutely
>>98039812I am the OP and I have never had a thread deleted, but a few got archived when they hit the bottom.
>>98039812Go look up how many got deleted compared to how many didn't.
>>98039766The thing is, I do understand them.A more narrow topic where everyone is operating under the same assumptions allows them to focus on details without having to argue about broader concepts like what actually makes an old school game good. There is some genuine value in making a "First Decade Only" thread for those kind of people who genuinely believe that the best form of gaming is trying to meticulously recreate that single instance in time.But, the problem for them is that their ideas are inherently incredibly unpopular. Their FDO doctrine is pretty unpopular in the OSR community, but they really, really want to tap into the OSR's popularity. An FDO thread would never attract new people, and would just keep losing posters until it was completely dried up. That's why they feel they NEED to call themselves OSR, even if their FDO is only a small unpopular sliver of it.
>>98039822Same! Play it or not, like those shows or not they brought gaming into the mainstream. I have overheard gaming conversations in fucking Walmart as people shopped. It's such a nice change.
>>98039837I tried here to even point out in the OP if folks wanted to only talk of that style to go there. I even linked the damned thread.But they can't allow that, as you pointed out Thier doctrine is not popular. People keep saying osrg posts have left and I can see why
>>98039462>Why do you feel BX and BX neoclones have so dominated the OSR scene?what's the alternative? OD&D didn't have enough of people nostalgic for it, and AD&D is ... well AD&Dhttps://rancourt.substack.com/p/ad-and-d-1e-headscratchersthat's not even an exhaustive list of the things wrong with the AD&D 1e books
>>98039858There is a reason they changed stuff in 2e. Layout alone was just bad, okay bad is being nice to it. Very kind really. There are reasons I never looked at 1e much until I was a decade or more into D&D.The thing that kept me out of BX was race as class. I hated it and still fucking hate it
>>98039827This was certainly not the case from 2014-2020 /osrg/ and G+ gaming. Its fallen off quite a bit though. Again, the only way to correct that and /tg/ in general is to play more traditional games, makes things for those and post about it.
>>98039858AD&D is probably better as a resource than a system. The 1e and certainly the 2e books come with a lot of stuff useful in other OSR systems.
>>98039870I definitely get the appeal of 1e, especially if you put in the effort to get into back in the 80's when it was the only thing around. I just don't think the juice is worth the squeeze at this point. This is why I'm really looking forward to trying out OSRIC 3 though.
>>98039837>That's why they feel they NEED to call themselves OSR, even if their FDO is only a small unpopular sliver of it.This is you being weird again. I understand your concern for a community but honestly just let it unfold as it will. Make your own, that has always been allowed. Make good questions, make dungeons, make play reports. That's what creates the community you're concerned about. Build the things you want, let other people do as they do.
>>98039880I am currently running one, playing in two and will start up a 2nd game soon. Only one of those are OSR games though
>>98039895I have downloaded the book, but not got to read them yet. Any major changes?
>>98039941>and post about it.
>>98039946Between OSRIC 2 and 3, or between OSRIC 3 and AD&D 1e?
>>98039786>I know reddit is hated by folks here but they have thriving OSR communities as it's open and trolls are not allowed to run wildExcellent, go back there then
>>98039801>It's odd as fuck they include ACK but not stuff like c&c and 2e.That says everything about you and nothing about 2e and C&C
>>98039895>I just don't think the juice is worth the squeeze at this point.There's been a sort of "grin and bear it" mannerism regarding 1e that I could never really get into, and some of the worst DMs I ever played under really stressed "I'm running this game RAW (except for a few undisclosed houserules that were approved by the ghosts of both Gygax and Arneson in a dream I had), so you'd better be ready to be fucked RAW."
>>98039972Please make an actual argument next time, thanks.
>>98039953The latter, I never read OSRIC 2e
>>98039837>the problem for them is that their ideas are inherently incredibly unpopularThat's not a problem at all. The OSR is not a popularity contest.>That's why they feel they NEED to call themselves OSR,No. We just have zero reasons to give up our name to people who came around years later and appropriated it.
>>98039972I know plenty of 2e, I ran it for a decade. C&C is as much OSR as ACKs as they do the very same thing. Use modern mechanics
>>98039984We've explained to you a million times what makes 2e not OSR. There's none so deaf as those who will not hear.
>>98039998You're demonstrably the usurper.Please go back to the thread you're happy is unpopular.
>>98040015You've established why you personally feel that way.And the world rejects you and your definition.2e has objectively been a part of the OSR.
>>98040004>I know plenty of 2e, I ran it for a decade.So what? That doesn't mean you understand what the OSR is and why 2e isn't it. In fact, that you've run 2e for a whole decade, if true, pretty much explains why you don't get what the OSR is.
>>98040020No.
>>98039993lol that's kind of controversial. The biggest change is it now includes an ascending AC option in the stat blocks. There are other changes like lowering the minimum ability scores for the Monk, but you need the original ability score to get all of his powers. I won't claim to be anything close to a 1e expert, so I don't know the nitty gritty.Beau Rancourt made a list of observed changes (https://rancourt.substack.com/p/ad-and-d-1e-osric-30-changelog), but he's also coming at the game from the perspective of a guy who hasn't actually played 1e. I checked the OSRIC Discord, and there's a bunch of grogs in there who disagree with some of Rancourt's observed differences. On top of that, the 1e rules are ambiguous or flat contradict themselves sometimes, so there's places that Finch had to stake a claim on interpretation for purpose of clarity. And on top of THAT, that are still some lingering typos.So, like I said, controversial. But I'd generally say that OSRIC 3e, with the exception of stuff like ascending AC, tries very hard to adhere to 1e as closely as possible while maintaining internal consistency.
>>98040026>A million lemmings cannot be wrong
>>98039946From their kickstarer:>New Version of OSRIC:>Easier to learn, with more explanations and examples of play>Avoids paragraph "wall of text" and favors granular “bites” of the rules.>Doesn’t use the Open Game License.>Provides licenses for third-party publishers.>Is closer to the original AD&D rules than OSRIC 2.0.
>>98040040>a tiny group can't be wrong about what a much larger group believes
>>98040038>OSRIC 3e, with the exception of stuff like ascending AC, tries very hard to adhere to 1e as closely as possibleWrong. It's full of Matt Finch's house rules smuggled in. The cake wants his cake (be seen as someone who made a faithful retroclone) and eat it too (shitbrew it).
>>98040031We've already established 2e is OSR.You're just trying to avoid what's been demonstrated earlier in this thread.Not gonna let you do that bub.
>>98040015And we've given many, MANY arguments as to why those are bullshit because they apply to things you accept as OSR, had fucking nothing to do with the early days of the movement, or just plain aren't accurate claims of the optional rule infestation in the first place.AD&D 2e supports OSR-style play about as well as AD&D 1e, no amount of bitching and moaning about changing priorities or fiddly mechanical details or pseudo-automation missing will change that. They are genuinely editions of the same system to a greater extent than 3e's "revision", you might be able to hunt down friction over a few points of rarely-necessary minutia one has that the other lacks or that's worded slightly differently in a way that turns the RAW a bit more jank than usual but the vast majority of the time a rule written for one is entirely applicable to the other.It is you who are the revisionists by insisting on cutting large chunks of AD&D 1e and BECMI out of scope, often simultaneously lauding a system that REVOLVES around exactly such off-ramps to the dungeon-delving you seem to keep insisting is the utterly sole identity in ACKS. Either Companion and Master and AD&D 2e are OSR for incredibly well-rooted play-pattern and design trend follow-through from what was already popping up regularly in 1984, or ACKS is not for making the exact fucking same "bloat" away from your framing of "Only First Decade" "norms".
>>98040051I'd love to hear what some of them are (other than the ones I've already mentioned of course), I'm far from a 1e expert. And don't just post Rancourt's list again, I don't really trust some of his observations of this one.
>>98040049No, dear. I criticised an argument you actually made (that a bunch of people agree with you, so that makes you right), you're criticising an argument I never made.I'm saying that number of believers in a claim says nothing about its truth value. This has been understood to be true in Western civilisation since at least the Galileo trial.
>>98039976NTAYRT I've been using the AD&DDMG as a toolkit, dungeon builder and various tables for my homebrew for years now. No intention of ever using the PHB. Always seemed foolish anyone would claim to run AD&D RAW given the endless debates about interpretation.
>>98040068>AD&D 2e supports OSR-style play about as well as AD&D 1e,Wrong and retarded>>98040078I didn't l
>>98040078I didn't read that post, and I don't share effortposts here. Ask on the real OSR thread and I'll be happy to answer.
>>98040031Not arguing with a troll over this. Go back to your echo chamber
>>98040081>I'm saying that number of believers in a claim says nothing about its truth value.Incorrect for descriptivist definitions. Unless you can point to an authoritative body to establish legitimacy of "OSR" as some manner of technical jargon, a million screaming retards are in fact more correct about what a term means. It doesn't matter how that defiles the etymology, that's how vernacular is accepted to work in the vast majority of relevant fields.
>>98040087>>98040095Huh?Looks like two comments got mixed up. Odd
>>98040098>Go back to your echo chamberRich, coming from a literal plebbitor and RPGnet faggot.
>>98040068It's funny that people were talking about Finch earlier, because in Finch's primer while he says that 2e is objectively OSR, he does admit that it was "already beginning to be affected by business-drive decisions that created some divergence from the very earliest of editions."Meanwhile, ACKS is basically just B/X but guided entirely by an effort to try and make money off of selling splatbooks. Even Finch's first pillar of what makes an OSR game OSR is "Rulings over Rules", and ACKS is essentially the exact opposite of that. I kinda understand why some of these ACKS guys have a problem with Finch.
>>98040099>descriptivistLol it's the midwit again.
>>98040038Acending AC is such a great change for OSR games. It's just flat out better that decending.I am the opposite of the 1e guys. I started with 2e and can't see why I would ever go to a worse (IMO) system. And if I have to choose between 1e and BX, fuck BX with the race as class removed all the way
>>98040113>Even Finch's first pillar of what makes an OSR game OSR is "Rulings over Rules",Which is something /osrg/ shits on daily. Again, Finch isn't the authority that you think it is.
>>98040129>/osrg/You mean the ACKS guys that hijacked it.
>>98040041ty, I never really look at the 1e clones much. Wotc caused a mess with there OGL stunt and folks are now seeing it's to big for Wotc to sweep up any more and are saying fuck em.
>>98040129Are we back to playing "find posts that recommend Matt Finch's primer in the /osrg/"?
>>98040109I post many places, as do most folks who don't require echo chambers
>>98040115If the term "OSR" is not defined by how it is broadly used, and it is not defined by the guys who started up the community that labeled itself such, then how is it defined?
>>98040115It is not midwittery to point out that the basic paradigm of word-meanings you are insisting on doesn't make any fucking sense on a Vietnamese plastic extrusion forum.
>>98039462>TQI think it’s because people were tired with how long 5e combats last and how fiddly balancing encounters is. Having a rules lite game probably felt like a breath of fresh air. And also the fact ad&d attributes are more complicated. I wouldn’t be surprised if the average 5e player looked in 1e PHB, saw each stat had 4 different unique and specific modifiers attached to to them, and had an aneurysm because it wasn’t just “you get +2 mod every 2 attribute points”
>>98040150It's the community that started the OSR. And no, Finch isn't the whole of that community and doesn't represent it. 2024 Finch even less so.
>>98040155>It is not midwittery to point out that the basic paradigm of word-meaningsIt is, when the reality is that the term originally meant something, was appropriated by newfag morons such as yourself, and that doesn't mean we have to relinquish it.
>>98040189Who actually is representative of that community, why them specifically, and why isn't Finch part of it?
>>98040189NTA, but are you trying to deny Finch was part of that community?Remember, you're in the position of trying to say you're the guy who can declare what the whole OSR community thinks, just like you seem to insist that you're the guy who speaks for everyone who's ever been part of the /osrg/.
>>98040185Good observation, I think it started with 3e, which was more crunchy and slugging combats. Honestly unifying stats was a good call, and yeah those ad&d mods are often .fuck that
>>98040205>>Finch isn't the whole of that community>are you trying to deny Finch was part of that community?That's retarded even by your standards, fishfag.
>>98040189>And no, Finch isn't the whole of that community and doesn't represent it.When he was the guy writing one of the first "big" OSR titles, he is in fact highly relevant to prescriptive definitions.>>98040195>It is, when the reality is that the term originally meant somethingWe keep directing you to the actual original discussions having no such consensus.>and that doesn't mean we have to relinquish it.It doesn't mean you have to abandon your usage, but does strongly indicate you have to stop squatting on it as the SOLE valid meaning of the term.>>98040250The point appears to be attempting to slice away game designers to show your position was negligible in the making of OSR titles (also why Castles and Crusaders gets mentioned), and thus the authority lent by being the philosophy actually making games is against you. To further this, how well can you demonstrate Macris' philosophy behind ACKS aligning with yours?
>>98040250No one ever said Finch was the whole community.Do you understand basic logic?Here's the competing claims:>2e has always been considered a part of the OSR by the OSR community.>2e has NOT always been considered a part of the OSR by the OSR community.In order for the first to be true, even just a part of the OSR community considering it to be part of the OSR would make it true. In order for the latter to be true, no one in the OSR community could want to include 2e.So, even if you wanted to say "no one in the TRUE OSR community thinks 2e is OSR", you have to draw a line between the "fake" OSR community who believes in a fake definition, and your TRUE OSR community that only believes what is right and true. So, are you actually gonna go ahead and try and say Finch (and the people influenced by his ideas) was never part of the TRUE OSR community?
>>98040185That's what helped get the whole OSR ball rolling; except it was people who didn't like how long and complicated 3e battles (or character creation) were. When you take 3e and compare it to B/X, B/X definitely comes off as a much lighter, easier system by a considerable degree.
>>98040129>an on spot selfpwnwhich once again solidifies that osrg is not about OSR anymore
>>98040078This was mentioned in one of the OSR Threads by another anonbut one of the major "Finch's houserules" departures was introduction of STR requirements for weapons... which isn't very major and is easily ignoredstill worth it over using 1e books a the tablealso the layout is meh see picrel
>>98039717>My deleted posts never existedIf everyone you don't like is fishfag, everyone who seethes about fishfag is the mindbroken faggot.
>>98040373Man, that's ugly. Functional, but ugly.
>>98039560>it's definitely got enough baggage that makes it a hard sell.The problem is not that it has a lot of "baggage", it's that it has any baggage at all. In a competitive market, even just being slightly worse than the competition can translate to losing out on the lion's share of sales.That's kind of why the OSR in general can be so... aggressive. Lots of very similar products, all competing for a limited pool of players.
>>98040319I think also it has to do with how much can you actually change the ad&d rules to still be similar but also a different game. BX is simple enough any retard with some motivation can type up some house rules and publish it as his own product and it’ll mostly work. Ad&d has so many specific stats and rules it’s hard to add changes without erasing what makes it ad&d. Almost every ad&d clone ends up just being a restatement of the rules. OSRIC is just 1e with all the charm stamped out. Gold and Glory is just 2e with art downloaded off google images. Only game that I feel did anything unique with the ad&d rules to warrant being it’s own game is Hyperborea
>>98040559d20 and 5e being the designated "games you build your game off of if you're just looking to make some money" games also probably helped draw away a lot of enthusiasm to build anything out of AD&D. If you're gonna make a game that's not either of those, you might as well make it one that's significantly different, and B/X is at least one more step further away from those games than AD&D is.
Speaking of Hyperboreawhat are some good S&S feel modules?preferably something that feels like bronze age or as close as possible to conan the barbarian movie (I know it's not bronze age but it might as well be)Currently my short list of modules to pick from is just two entries- Caverns of Thracia- B4
>>98040661The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan could be said to fit that, but it's also a competition module (though much more fair and better designed than ToH).If we're talking about fitting the theme of the Conan movie, Against The Cult Of The Reptile God captures some of those elements and also came out the same exact year.As for book Conan, Temple of Death always struck me as having a lot of distinct Conan-like aspects to it, including briefly touching on the tiniest sliver of Lovecraftian horror.
this thread doesn't need to exist
>>98040559NTAYTT,Hyperborea is invocative as all fuck. It also does some interesting stuff with its classes. I really need to give it a deeper dive
>>98040661I haven’t played them but Lions of Tel Arn and Palace of Unquiet Repose both have the vibe of “ancient city haunted by strange sorcery”. Lions is specifically set in a Bronze Age world and deals with people messing with inter-dimensional portals. Palace is a necropolis with lots of undead and a roaming flying polyp that fades in and out of our reality. It chases the players around the city and its presence causes the dead to raise. The next obvious answer is all the Hyperborea modules by North Wind if you’re fine playing in their setting
>>98040724>The Hidden Shrine of TamoachanI think adventures with score cards are neat.
thank you for replies anons>>98040761>all the Hyperborea modules by North Wind if you’re fine playing in their settinghow hard is it to adapt to B/X derived systems?can you play it out of the box? do you need to go through magic items and spells in the modules before you play?
>>98040862Well, ad&d PCs are stronger than BX PCs, and Hyperborea PCs are a bit stronger than ad&d PCs, so I’d say you either need to buff the PCs, play a couple levels higher than recommended, or nerf the modules
>>98039734>It was salt about ACKS the whole time>againLmao you *need* to stop being so goddamned predictable, you just can't keep it bottled up for long enough to try the whole play, can you?
>>98039744>if I just lie, it will work>I'm sure these OSR guys don't know anything about OSR games, this will be an easy sell
>>98039750>A post from 2018>which clearly states that OSR is based on 1E and BasicjejWith enemies like these, who needs friends?
>>98040928It's almost like the /osrg/ isn't a monolith, and different people can have different opinions, and they don't even have to stick to certain "sides" of an argument on all matters.
>>98039825>smocking>but for real though anybody could be making these same exact mistakes, over and over, on the same narrow topic>it could be anybody!!!!
>>98039837It's funny how this is supposed to be an "open" OSR thread where various faggots can talk about the allegedly incredibly important and foundational OSR games left out of the /osrg/ and yet all you can do is post "mutual" (they're not really reciprocal since it's all just one guy samefagging, but ostensibly mutual) commiserations about how the ebul osrglers won't let you into, and take over, their secret club which actually you should totally own and they shouldn't be allowed to use their own name.It really seems like you definitely have a massive interest in these nonexistent left-out OSR games which is totally real and sincere. You also definitely sound like more than one asshurt autist.
>>98039855>Thier
>>98039884>certainly the 2e books come with a lot of stuff usefulLMAO it's never been clearer that you haven't even read the 2e books, 2e was gutted. The DMG especially.
>troll is tired of talking to himself in his dead thread>begins to shitspam in the thread where actual people are in order to try and get attention because he's become desperateIt's actually kind of sad.Anyway...>Only game that I feel did anything unique with the ad&d rules to warrant being it’s own game is HyperboreaWhat's it do that's so unique? I gave it a glance over a while back and nothing really stood out aside from it being human-centric and having good art.
Whoops missed the reply.>>98040559>Only game that I feel did anything unique with the ad&d rules to warrant being it’s own game is HyperboreaWhat's it do that's so unique? I gave it a glance over a while back and nothing really stood out aside from it being human-centric and having good art.
>>98040798>leaving crab undisturbed +3>bargaining with crab +1>believing crab -1You've caught my curiosity.
>>98040946hory shietyou are an actual schizo with a persecutory delusion
>>98041015It's not all that exciting. A boulder turns out to be a hermit crab, and if you ask it for directions, it will just waste some of your time by first sending you to a dead end.
>>98040998NTA , but off hand the classes are different . They have like 26 and no multiclassing as each class fills those roles.
>>98041070NTA, but the points made it seem way more interesting
>>98039462You could ask that in the generalNice art thoProbably because the rules are written more directly and havent undergone the media and community entropy that the real old stuff did
>>98041081yeah, that' a fucking letdown of just >not interacting with environment is the best rewarded optionwhat's the point of these "tournament" modules again?
>>98041081>>98041015Wait so why is doing nothing with the Kreb +3, did the tourneys run on Golf rules?
>>98041101I do not go to the osrg so no, I couldn't have.There is something to be said about being more direct with rules.>>98041102IKR, so many ways you could go with it and they did the most boring option
>>98041107First guy here, maybe it was golf rules. Less delay?
>>98041081I think most of the chart conjures up much more interesting ideas than the ones in the actual adventure.Like-incapacitating hand with limeI thought that it might mean some sort of crawling hand monster with a strange citrus allergy or something.Turns out it's just a block of stone covered in lime that if you touch with your bare hands it will damage them.
>>98041071>no multiclassing We'll see about that.I'm gonna make a mage/thief/mage-thief(or whatever it's called).
>>98041107The crab only gets disturbed if you attack a crayfish in a pond that's just guarding the boulder. You can just walk past the whole encounter.Yeah, in the "leave no stone unturned, there's always treasure underneath" philosophy of encouraging exploration, it's counter-intuitive, but in the "you gotta gamble on whether a stone has treasure or instant death underneath" philosophy of encouraging players to feel like every step they take is a risk, it works.
>>98041102From the looks of things, it appears you win by finishing the Dungeon with as little damage and disgression from completion as possible. Which makes avoiding the very entertaining but time consuming sandbagging by a gigantic Crab and his dipshit Crawdad fren the optimal move. For a given definition of optimal.
>>98041102>what's the point of these "tournament" modules again?How else are you supposed to prove you're the greatest roleplayer of all time?
>>98041132That is a letdown. But damn is that chart not inspirational >>98041144Pretty sure one of the classes cover that. I think the warlock is a fighter/mage type but don't recall the others
>>98041208NTA, but pretty sure they were trying to run d&d like a wargame and that simply does not work. It's why most people did not play AD&D by the book
>>98041246People still need some way of establishing bragging rights in their nerd hobbies.I recently went to a party where four girls were trying to establish which of them was the biggest Harry Potter fan by first trying to test each other on their knowledge before just listing out the most expensive merchandise they've purchased. It was important to establish this because their entire hierarchy for the night was essentially determined by which girl had bought the most lego sets or guzzled the most butterbeer.D&D nerds needed something equivalent. That's what tournaments where the winner is decided by how well luck favors them as they gamble on reading the module designer's mind are all about, because that's clearly what every D&D nerd thinks of when they think of a good roleplayer.
>>98039582>accused your enemies of what you are doing, the postYou inflicting this thread with your presence is proof it's purpose is working.
>>98040739You don't need to exist.
>>98040149Faggot you literally showed up here in February, newfag redditor rpgnet tranny trying to dictate what /osrg/ is>>98040739Nothing "needs" to exist bozo
>>98041246>but pretty sure they were trying to run d&d like a wargame...what do you think a wargame is?
>I've played through only four official modulesHow many do I need to play through in order to be able to brag about them?
>>98040998As the other guy mentioned, it has actual classes that fill in for multi class archetypes. Most ability/skill checks are either d6 or d12, d100 is only for extraordinary feats. So checks are a bit more unified but not completely unified. And I personally just really like Hyperborea’s versions of the classes in general
>>98041493Just find some top 10-20 list of best adventures of all time.Beat them, and then you can be a right insufferable cunt.
Is there a better monster to rule over a mega dungeon than a Lich?
>>98041878S'all about the Elder Brains.
>>98041878The most evil monster of all.
>>98041354Could be, we all know people do that kinda thing. I personally think it grew out of war game tournaments where you would have an overall winner
>>98041490>...what do you think a wargame is?Something D&D has not been since the Greyhawk supplement.
>>98041878A lich is hard to beat as a boss. Very classic. What's not to love about an undead power mad wizard?>>98041940That one is also a solid choice. Eldritch mind fuckery.
>>98039967Still salty they banned you? Not everybody likes posting on Reddit as much as you ACKSfaggots do, who love it so much they conspire to brigade and get themselves kicked out of every space.
>>98041490Something that is not an RPG. Yeah in VT sometimes we do light roleplay but you pull out a second game if you want to really roleplay a character
>>98041878I think death knights are severely underrated. I love the idea of the big bad just being a dude who runs up and kicks your teeth in. After DKs I have a love for aboleths
>>98041878Balor or Pit fiend might be good options
>>98042059Man, Balors used to be so dumb looking.
>>98042148Lol yeah. The PS art is a little better but doesn't show how badass theses fuckers are. it's why I picked better art.
>>98042161I do weirdly love the Planescape Pit Fiend art.There is something supremely sinister about it, and it feels less like a direct depiction of one and more like an emblem or even a dream vision.I kind of wish we saw more reiterations/adaptions of this version of the Pit Fiend, but it sadly just sort of disappeared.
>>98042177The PS art was interesting. I can see the sinister in the pit fiend for sure. It just invokes that shadow lurking in the darkness feel.I always liked the succubus art. It always felt like something was just lightly off, and uncanny valley vibe
>>98042197A little too much this for my tastes.
>>98042202Kinda why I like it, it feels like a mask. Kinda invokes that unsettling otherworldness for me.
>>98042038>>98042045You have no idea what you're talking about do you?
>>98042042The resident anti-acks fag literally admitted to coming here from Reddit and rpgnet back in February
>>98042227I am the second guy and I feel I do. I have been playing BT since about 88, RPGs since about 90/91. If you think Wargames and RPGs are the same you have never played one of those.
>>98042233NTA, but I've played enough skirmish-scale wargames and RPGs to know that the only differences between the two are completely soluble in alcohol.
>>98042233Battletech's a boardgame.
>>98039637lol they have NO argument, went straight into "you were angry that we lied, that makes our lies sort of like truth if you think about it" and "well actually this guy doesn't decide what OSR is, I do because I'm the CEO of OSR".
>>98042282/osrg/ decides /osrg/'s content, no-one and nothing else
>>98042230>resident anti-acks fag literally admitted to coming here from Reddit and rpgnet back in February>and then he was so salty he used a timemachine to go back in time to argue with CKShills in osrg for a couple of years because it's definitely just one guy with the same spelling mistakes and swipekeyboard/autocorrect words out of placea literal shizo
>>98040135Even the mods told you osrg has been the same for over 10 years when you went to cry to them, schizo retard.
>>98040155>the basic paradigm of word-meaningslolMidwit
>>98040325Wrong and retarded
>>98042432sure why not, you can talk about fishing all day long for all I careonly why call it OSRg then?
>>98042475>why call it OSRgwho cares, I didn't name it, I just respect it's borders
>>98042481>osrg is some sort of monkey stepladder experimentspeaks volumes
>>98042546okay, cool? youre the one with a problem with the name. most normal people would just see that the contents arent what they want, and move on
>>98042475
>>98042274so? wargames are boardgames
>>98042233D&D was categorically a wargame and an RPG
>>98042741>D&D was a wargamenoI'd like to hear your arguments thou
>>98042274You are very confused
>>98042737But not all boardgames are not wargames, you retard.
>>98042796>2etard doesn't know that D&D is a wargamePar for the course, you're all a bunch of idiots who know nothing.
>>98042803>t. doesn't know what a wargame is
>>98041878Regular evil wizard.Other then that, a not-balrog is the standard.
>>98042809oh you had no arguments all along!
>>98042903I'm not the Anon you originally replied to.
>>98042825Ah yes, the "it's not a phase mom" wizards who need a dungeon to be trendy
>>98042475>why call it OSRg then?Because in spite of your schizo screeds it allows discussion of all OSR games. Just not objectively non-OSR games like 2e.
>>98042909so you are saying there are two of you with no arguments?I see
>>98042967It was already established earlier in this very thread that your whole "2e is not OSR" stance is ridiculous even by the standards of guys that people like you cannot reasonably exclude from the OSR community like Matt Finch.You're basically just putting your fingers in your ears now, and that makes you definitively an idiotic troll.
>>98042982I refuse to spoon feed you, I'm content pointing and laughing. The other Anon can do as he wishes.
>>98042989If he's a troll, getting you to reply is a win. Stop biting the retard's bait.
>>98042989>you cannot reasonably exclude from the OSR community like Matt FinchWe don't need to exclude him from the "community" to say he's very overrated and often wrong.
>>98043003You're the one who's replying to the troll.
>>98042967>it allows discussion of all OSR gamesCorrect.
>>98042989Not only is "AD&D" 2e not OSR, it's not even D&D except in branding.If it's not by Gary Gygax, it's not D&D.
>>98042737If I had one buck for every ignorant idiot who can't tell the difference between subset and superset I'd be a fucking billionaire.
Here is a question y'all. What type of saves do you like best and why? Is it the classic five? A single save like Swords and wizardry, 3e's three, 5e's ability score saves, something else?I myself, do not see any reason to stick with the classic 5 while all the other versions I mentioned are just outright superior. A single save us simple, 3e's three saves are just easy to understand and make sense. Ability score check saves are also simple and do not improve much if all as you level
>>98041878>Is there a better monster to rule over a mega dungeon than a Lich?ACKS II Báleygr
>>98041878>>98041940>>98041965>>98042049>>98042059Such an organic, insightful, totally not samefagged discussion by multiple anons none of whom is fishfag, who doesn't exist.
>>98043042>>98042148>>98042161>>98042177>>98042197Such an organic, insightful, totally not samefagged discussion by multiple anons none of whom is fishfag, who doesn't exist.
>>98043029God I fucking hate amateur game designers.
>>98043029>What type of saves do you like best and why?FOEGYG
>>98043042Once more you can't tell how many folks are talking. You are not good at this
>>98043064>I'm multiple peopleYou're not even one person, you're a subhuman.
>>98043034>Based ACKS enjoyerOnly correct reply in the chain. Have an Alexander.
>>98043073Honest question here, why are you so sure any actual conversation must be fake? You have never been right as far as I can tell and anytime you are shown to be wrong you make outrageous claims of how it's fake you can't back up. But why have you convinced yourself it must all be fake?
>>98043080>B-but I swear I'm more than one person!Wouldn't change anything. If it's two idiots sharing comments utterly devoid of content just to fake engagement it's exactly as retarded.
>>98043091Yeah what I thought it's just you trolling with no substance. Okay, question answered.
>>980430295e's are terrible because the system doesn't actually use them correctly. Instead of making them balanced, you have almost every save be either Con, Dex, or Wis, so the class bonuses are all messed up, stats are all messed up, and the only reason it works out is because the game keeps save bonuses so low that the d20's randomness obfuscates the issues and there are additional layers of protections.3e's aren't bad in concept, but the scale and application once again just don't work out that well. There is a sweet spot between levels 4-8 where the math does work out, but by level 12 the saves are a broken mess.The categories these use are logical, and probably superior to the classic 5, but this actually ends up being a problem. They become less of a "save" and more of a "defense", and they end up coming into play almost every other round. In theory, a smarter system overall would probably actually drop armor class entirely and just use 3e's saves as defenses and there would be a separate layer of saves, but that would definitely kill the feel of D&D so there's no point in mentioning that.
>>98043109>More amateur game designer nonsenselol this thread is fucking trash.
>>98043101>no substanceRich, coming from someone who shared a dozen posts devoid of content to simulate engagement.
>>98043034>ACKS II BáleygrThat's great, but a 20 HD ACKS II Cacodemon Archfiend is even better.
>>98043034>>98043130These are so bad. It's like they were deliberately made to prove that the Alt-right suffers from some kind of imagination deficiency.
>>98043109I agree the application can be an issue, but the Idea behind them is a good one. I think there is something worthwhile and simplistic with the ability saves, but as You stated you end up with three of them being the most used.I myself really like a 3 save split, and think the 3e save are just easy to grow. Are you bodying it, dodging it or me mentally toughing it out. Yeah the numbers may need fixed but go me it is just the one that makes most sense.
>>98043136What else did you expect from that bunch?
>>98043136>>98043140You can always count on fishfag throwing a samefagging melty whenever ACKS is mentioned
>>98043147Wrong as always
>>98043130>20 HD ACKS II Cacodemon ArchfiendLove that, but at that point I'd prefer an ACII 20 HD Venerable Dragon!Ignore the troll, by the way. ACKS II is on topic here, you can talk about it all you want.
>>98043151>I have two different browsers on my laptopVery impressive, fishfag. You're a veritable haxx0r
>>98043136>Alt-rightLMAO go back to plebbit and RPGnet, you literal faggot
Ah yes, the 550 page 3e inspired game pretending to be a BX game
>>98043029>fish's fake hillbilly doesn't know about saves, just got here in february >really wants to tell everyone how to be though
>>98043137>WotCtards and 2etards theorycrafting
Oh shit, the troll is throwing down his "I lose flags" already.Score's already 6 cool guys - 0 Brosr.
>>98043157Ah you changed arguments as the other was stupid as fuck
>>98043169>fish's fake hillbilly doesn't know about saves, just got here in february >really wants to tell everyone how to be thoughHe also thinks ShadowDark is OSR
>>98043175>Fishfag is trying reverse psychology againhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdPtb-1cUMM
>>98043175Nah it's just the morning trolls. These two have a love of memes and can't actually debate or argue worth a damn. They just call everyone fish fag and attack folks like children.They are very predictable
>>98043187The BrOSR is not here to debate.The BrOSR is here to make smelly nerds into men by raping them.
>>98043137>Are you bodying it, dodging it or me mentally toughing it outThose three questions are defense questions, and it would make sense if armor actually mattered when it came to the first two. OSR saves are almost narrative in nature aside from being gamist, with the answer to "How did he survive that point-blank fireball?" being left to the imagination of the DM and players and often involving copious luck. 3e tried to make them a bit more simulationist, and ended up changing their nature entirely.
>>98043187>These twoHow dare you say I'm more than one person? I'm just one person, Jeffro Johnson.
>7 coolguys - 0 BrOSRWe playing to 11 today?
>>98043201We're raping you until you like it. Do you like yet?
>>98043201>>98043203Sorry I forgot the meme
>>98043211Thanks man.> 8 cool guys - 0 BrOSR
>>98043196Eh D&D has always been very abstract. I always like splitting AC into a "did it hit" and "how much my armor stopped" because armor doesn't stop the hit, it stops damage.Savs to me are defensive but different than AC or Evasion or whatever you call it
>>98043140I was expecting something that didn't look like the most soulless shit imaginable. It's like if you asked AI to design a sticker set.It even makes >>98042148 look awesome in comparison. That stupid-looking Balor actually has some charm to its design, whether its the stupid way he's holding that sword or those excessively hairy armpits...Wow. I never actually took that close a look at the art enough to really see just how fucking hairy those armpits are. Jesus christ he's like a French girl.
>>98043219Why are you counting the number of times you've been raped as something that makes you cool, faggot?
>>98043241>I was expecting something that didn't look like the most soulless shit imaginable.LMAO he's expecting Anons to put effort into shitposting. Your retardation is really beyond reckoning, fishfag.
>>98043246He's starting to like it, as predicted
>>98043187>These there two trolls are just the one dang ol reckoner of the varmint yall same antifishfagtroll so you both better knock it off now yall hears?
>>98043241I’m pretty sure ACKS II uses a lot of AI art. I’ve looked in the phb before and the art is all just soulless dog shit. Doesn’t even come close to the soulfulness of 2e art
>>98043241Pretty sure some of that art is AI, I think ACK II got dragged over AI art. It has the look. Which, should shock no one.And yeah the old Balor art is bad, but D&D art got better over time. You recall how gods awful most 1 art was? 2e also had some stinkers
>>98043280Okay to be fair, D&D often had killer cover art. The sword and sorcery oil paintings are hard to top for vibe
>>98043280I guess that's just yet another reason why the ACKS-fags hate it.Pure, primal jealousy.They're also jealous of Matt Finch explicitly saying 2e is OSR, while laying down in his primer why a game like ACKS is basically the exact opposite of what an OSR game should be. It's such a weird thing to be jealous about, but I guess the easiest way to avoid people pointing out that you don't belong is to start screaming that someone else doesn't belong.
>>98043288I'll take stinkers over soulless slop any day.
>>98043305Shadowdark's out then huh.
>>98043288>Which, should shock no one.With how many boomers there are in the OSR community I'm amazed and mildly relieved there aren't more AIslop illustrations. >>98043300Wait wait, wait. For all the obnoxious shit the ACKSfags get up to, the game is based on B/X. By definition it's an OSR retroclone.
>>98043300>jealousy of 2elollmao, even
>>98043300>>98043320
>>98043310>ShadowdarkI like Shadowdark's graphic design as being an unabashed love-letter to the black and white art of early D&D but amped up and modernized, but as for the actual art itself......incredibly forgettable.I'm fine with graphic design making a product feel like a product; that's almost its job. But art needs to do something more than just take up space.
>>98043320Well yeah, I am glad it's less AI art than I feared. Honestly I am glad the majority of the gaming community is anti AI art for products otherwise more companies would pull that shit.And not the second guy you were talking with, but he is at war with the trolls over 2e being banned from Thier echo chamber. While 2e is OSR, they can do what they want there. But those folks also back ACK to the hilt while claiming actual OSR games and the first OSR game C&C, which does the same things ACJs dies us somehow not OSRJust leave those two groups to throw shit at each other
>>98043320Nono, I don't like it so it isn't. Which is different from when someone else doesn't like a thing and discounts it because they're not me.
>>98043337NTA, but some art just lacks passion. It's technically sound but does not inspire.
>>98043337It sucks because SD has some really good art. But for every piece of art like the beholder cover it’s got 15 pieces that are just shit. Not even the “it’s got some charm” shit. Just really mediocre
>>98043320It's based on B/X, but there's so much dumb and useless shit slapped on, it's very far from a system that came about as an effort to present a simplified and streamlined version of D&D.A good chunk of B/X's popularity in the OSR comes from it being relatively simple and unburdened, especially compared to 3e and also as an answer to 5e. When you take that, and bloat the fuck out of it so even 5e looks like a rules-lite system in comparison, you're barely B/X anymore, just like if you took a boat and overloaded it. No point in calling it a boat if it can't even float.
>>98043077these pics are so funny to anyone who's seen macrisI'm actually not sure if ackshills are posting those or is it ironic postings by fishfags
>>98043382It's 100% just something the shill had in his fap folder.
>>98043320>By definition it's an OSR retroclone.it's not a clone if you take like 60 pages of rules (w/o monsters) and add 1000 on top
>>98043300>why a game like ACKS is basically the exact opposite of what an OSR game should beI want to hear you out. How is it this? inform me, i am listening.
>>98043403NTA,People now days use retroclone to mean both a retroclone and Neoclone it seems
>>98043413retroclone / neoclone is all the same>it's not a clone if you take like 60 pages of rules (w/o monsters) and add 1000 on top
>>98043438Even the Hobbit movies were closer to the source material.
>>98043438No they are two categories of OSR, but over time the retroclone term became general use. It's kinda like how fuck buddy and Friends with benefits where two different things, but now everyone just uses FWB for both.There is a difference, they mean different things, but the common use just uses one term for both.
>>98043411>>98043438>>98043403let's not start flamewarsyou are going to get ackshill into the grave with all this stressthe thread is almost a normal thread nowa few osrgtard/ackshill tantrums caused by spring exacerbation of mental sickness here and there is probably the best anyone can hope on this board
>>98043468>No they are two categories of OSRmy point was that it's no cloneit copies some basic resolution and character progression mechanics while building 1000 pages worth of rules on top to support a playstyle completely alien to B/X it borrows from
>>98043337Its an unabashed attempt to cash in on nostalgia. The makers have no love for early dnd. Its just sales.
>>98043351>ThierTell us more about how Shadowdark is OSR, like you claimed earlier. >>98043179
Any suggestions wording for the next post? I am pretty sure we hit the bump limit and I would like to keep it in line for how I made this one.
>>98043403We can do page count as the defining feature of OSR. How many pages is the cut off?
>>98043413>now dayslmao learn to spell english retard
>>98043483Which makes it a neo clone. Good or bad at following the spirit not OSR does not change what it is.
>>98043411That anon is caught up in thinking >osr = ruleslite indi which it does not and never has. There are many that are, but it isn't a defining feature. Its barely a defining feature of nusr at this point given the size and baroque design of some of the newer stuff from that area.
>>98043471>mental sicknessRich, coming from someone with literal clinical autism, olympics-level autistic fixations, and a broken theory of mind.
>>98043483This could get interesting though. So outline the divergence you think is the most egregious in terms of gameplay. Now compare that to the general idea that 2nd ed, with the optional rules and such, is a divergence but still OSR.
>>98043492fwiw I think trying to be non-confrontational and separate worked better than any of the other attempts. There's some obvious trolls on both sides but the more reasonable everyone else is the more they stick out.
>>98043508Not the guy saying it’s not OSR. Personally I don’t care if it’s OSR or not. I think it’s just a shit system with shit art that focuses too much on domain play that I don’t care about. If I want a game with an expanded class list I’d just play one of the ad&d clones
>>98043485There's no doubt it's incredibly commercial, but the designer has spent countless interviews defending her "gaming creds" and just seems more of being genuinely superficial, as in she actually believes the game captures what she thinks is essential to the "old school" style, she just happens to be a dimwitted basic bitch.
>>98043533That was my goal here, I am not the guy putting up the other ones. He seems to want the fight. I just want a place to talk about OSR stuff and the osrg isn't it.
>>98043511Funny you stopped posting your dog shit bestiary pages as soon as everyone started pointing out how bad they looked. Take your AI slop game to another thread nACKer
>>98043508I wasn't asking you, i was asking him.
>>98043492the current wording is quite alright, just fixed a few spelling/grammer/styling mistakes for you anon>This thread is for open OSR discussions. Including old-school D&D, retroclones, and broader OSR-adjacent games.>There is a general for those of you who prefer OSR games strictly inspired by the first decade D&D that can be found here ______>Please do not engage with trolls.Also don't be too hasty with the new thread, no need to post it while the current one is still up so high
>>98043561It doesn't matter what you wanted its an open forum. Enjoy your stay newfriend!
>>98043560>Schizo theories about why Anons shitpost in one way and not another.Wow. Sherlock Fishfag is so smart and he doesn't have a broken theory of mind at all.
>>98043511>see something about mental sickness>immediately take it personally and proceed to no ulike pottery
>>98043493>We can do page count as the defining feature of OSRYou quit bullying BECMI right now.
>>98043537lol but also sadness Makes sense its quite popular when you put it that way.
>>98043612Rules Cyclopedia isn’t OSR because it’s too big and came out after 2e, I’ll die on this hill
>>98043635Even the general with its hackeneyed 1983 cutoff made allowances for Rules Cyclopedia.
>>98043508Don't try to speak for other people.ACKS isn't OSR because it takes B/X and goes deliberately against its very core. The "OSR=Rules-lite" is inaccurate, but there's a reason why that inaccuracy developed and became so widespread. Comparing Old school games against Modern (defined primarily as 3e and later systems), and there's a number of differences that people like Matt Finch have explained as being "business-driven" in nature. Matt Finch, in his Old School Primer, lays down the old school style as favoring Rulings over Rules, as well as focusing on the player's skill over the character's abilities. There's plenty of room to debate about these, but it doesn't take much to realize that what he's passive-aggressively bitching about is 3e's considerable proliferation of subsystems and mechanics, along with the "business-driven" decision to embrace splatbooks and endless system expansion.They're not strict rules, and he even admits that games like 2e and BECMI (which he outright says are OSR) were starting to show signs of these corporate influences, so you can push a game in that direction a bit without making it not OSR.But, we're talking about degrees. Pushing a game a little in the "Modern" direction is fine and even welcomed in many ways, especially if the "modern" direction is cleaning up or simplifying dated mechanics. But, if the "Modern" direction is making the most uninspired, rules-heavy version of B/X with splatbooks designed specifically to just sell extra classes, then it's hard to link it with the reasons the OSR began or grew popular.
>>98043583Thank ya, I know my grammer blows. I want to wait to it sinks more, but the other guy will make a thread. I'll likely wait and even if he does still make a more open thread.
>>98043560I just googled this, and this is false. None of the interior images from the Monstrous Manual was done with AI, they were all done by Old School Jelly, who doesn't use AI.There's one artist among many who contributed art in the other two ACKS II books (the Revised Rulebook and the Judges Journal) who uses AI, but he was also called at the end of the process, after most of the editing was done and they found out they had some extra space left. It's all minor filler.Source and quote follow:https://old.reddit.com/r/Autarch/comments/1i7lfhm/ai_art_in_acksii_books/>It's got ~ 50 handmade paintings by Michael Syrigos and another ~500 comic-style illustrations by a team of 20 artists, though one of them (Old School Jelly) accounted for half of that>But at 1,500 pages I still had empty space left, which I then filled up with over 200 lore entries and then still had empty space left so then I partnered with an artist who is AI-assistedThe overall art budget was in the high five figures, spent more on art and have more art than all prior books I've done added together.
>>98043665That’s the joke
>>98043676Their main artist went from incredibly unpolished amateur art to art that pretty clearly had a mignola filter applied to it, without admitting he was using AI. Here's what he was doing.
>>98043676So he spent 5 figures just for his art to still look like AI slop? LMAO
>>98043699And here's his art a year later after AI had become widespread.I wondered if such a rapid amount of improvement in his art could have been the result of AI, and put through an AI detector got a pretty high response.
>>98043709Him having a machine gun alone is kinda a give away
>>98043709AI detection tools are notoriously broken and unreliable, both for text and for images.
>>98043728Ok but I can also just look at that and see that it’s AI
>>98043728NTA and not gonna disagree with your statement, but it does scream AI. Also why is there a SMG?
>>98043736>why is there a SMG?Not sure why that matters, and no idea what that image was used for.
>>98043709I'm not familiar with that artist nor with his evolution, but I don't think that the two images you posted provide proof of unnatural improvement.It could be, instead, that you are comparing two images created with different purposes (e.g. to be printed at different resolutions), and/or commissioned for different kinds of work with different specifications, and/or two images on which the artist spent a different amount of time and effort.Additionally: Are you sure that the two images were drawn one year apart from the other? Just because they were posted one year apart doesn't mean they were drawn one year apart.
>>98043728And if a person has basic photoshop skills, they can correct/modify AI images to pass both AI and human detection... except that humans also have that all-powerful "vibe check".There may not actually really be all that much of a point in arguing if or how much AI was used to make an image, particularly because even before the much more powerful versions of generative AI available now, artists were using compositing techniques and CGI and generative fills and other "cheats" to get their work done faster.Ultimately, at the end of the day, that human "vibe check" is what's most important, and that ACKS shit looks like slop. AI or not (but probably AI or at least considerably "AI-assisted"), that art is so absolutely soulless that even filling a book with corposlop probably would have had more soul.
>>98043493it's not about page countit's a simple statement that if you have C = a little bit of A + 15 times more of Bthan it's not fair to call C a clone of A
>>98043746Because it does not fit anything else in the image. He is in standard fantasy gear in a clear AI style holding a SMG
>>98043773I don't particularly like the ACKS art either, and if all you were saying is that it looks like shit I would have nothing to comment on it.I'm just wary around accusations that AI was used to create something because, when it comes to texts, I've seen first hand how many false positives there are, and how damaging it can be for someone who is falsely accused of it, particularly students.
>>98043822It has to be intentional. It's not exactly difficult to tell an AI to remove an SMG, or to remove it by hand in "post-production". So I certainly it made sense in the context in which the image was meant to be used. Is your hypothesis that he didn't notice there was an SMG when he published the image? That doesn't seem very plausible.
>>98043843I do think it was AI modified, but I really wanna know why it has an SMG. As you said it's easy to remove, but my brain is like "why is it there"
>>98043766>>98043824https://www.instagram.com/oldschooljelly/Here's Old School Jelly's instagram.I'll let you decide IF he started to use AI.I'll let everyone else decide WHEN he did.The when is actually hard for me to say. To be charitable, there's some extreme examples of obvious AI art (undisclosed, of course) he did for a Post-Apocalypse setting, and we could say that's when he began to use AI. But, then there's still a pretty big leap between art that pretty clearly he drew himself (bad anatomy, muddy coloring, awkward posing, etc.) and the work that is done in the Mignola-esque style, and the quality keeps changing dramatically where sometimes it looks like pure AI art and others it looks like him doing a really bad job of imitating that AI art.Artists can improve, and aping someone else's style is one way to get superficial gains quickly, but I'm more than inclined to think someone that tried to pass of clearly AI art for the Post-Apocalypse setting probably doesn't deserve too much of the benefit of the doubt.
>>98043822>>98043901It's for a post-apocalypse setting.He really just went HARD on the AI there. And then there's some art above that which was probably done by himself because it's so thoroughly amateur.
>>98042989>2e is not OSRCorrect! I'm glad you've finally figured this out.Now, the sooner you admit to yourself that there's no real discussion in these threads and stop posting them, the better.
>>980440522e is OSR and ACKS has ugly AI art.
>>98043080>Honest question here, why are you so sure any actual conversation must be fake?>actual conversationjejThey're obviously fake because they're just empty exchanges of alleged preferences according to an obvious template. There's no actual interaction and as such it is not in fact a converdation.
>>98043942The amateur stuff isn’t even that bad. I’d say it’s on par with most stuff in the OSR scene. Certainly looks better than the AI stuff. Looks like he was on track to be a pretty decent fantasy artist then got mind raped by chat GPT
>>98043115It was made to be trash, what else would you expect?
>>98044058>2e is OSRFalse.>ACKS has ugly AI artLol faggot. Only NuSR faggots and 2etards care about art, because you only read books instead of playing. The BrOSR only cares about RULES.
>>98043246I refuse to have any wojaks saved on my phone or box but he's literally that one with the smug mask over a guy crying like a bitch. He thinks that if he pretends that we lose every time we post an image that really hurts him he can get us to stop.In a way, it makes sense that he thinks this ridiculous plan will work since he clearly also thinks he can just declare his way out of the incontrovertible fact that 2e is not OSR.
>>98044097>it makes sense that he thinks this ridiculous plan will workLiteral autist with a broken theory of mind. At this point we have a mountain of evidence.
>>98044097>I refuse to have any wojaks saved on my phone or box but he's literally that one with the smug mask over a guy crying like a bitch. I gotchu senpai
>>98044096>w-wuh we don’t actually care that our books look like shit!>we just care about the rules!Your rules are shit too
>>98044065It's not... It's not something I would say is bad to his face because I wouldn't want to discourage him, but it's pretty obvious why he chose to go the route of passing off AI images as his own art.That "Noam" image is probably 100% his art. The amateur linework, bland and stiff pose, the poor understanding of shadows, the various armor failures, it's the sort of stuff that are mistakes not made because of a lack of time or effort, but a lack of skill and knowledge. You can see the direct lines of ability between >>98043699 leading to the Noam image. He's still struggling with a lot of the same things, and even though he's now trying to imitate Mignola in the Noam picture to match his AI generated images, he just completely fails because Mignola's art can look simple, but underneath is a complete mastery of light and form, and this guy is struggling to draw a guy just standing there.That Noam image is still better than the slop, but it also feels indicative of coming from someone who would end up passing off slop as his own work.
>>98043667>Don't try to speak for other people.Funny for you to say fuckhead. >ACKS isn't OSR because it takes B/X and goes deliberately against its very core. Then 2nd ed isn't OSR for the same reasons. >but there's a reason why that inaccuracy developed and became so widespreadIdiots with meme opinions flooding social media with their fuckhead opinions. >finch, rulings over rules Debunked as is before we even get to you parading its corpse around just like how you detest others doing with gygax. >They're not strict rulesThen fuck off with your ACKS grinding problem.>But we're talking about degrees when its a thing I like. Nah. The ACKS shills are bad but you're just as fucked in the head and make it worse.
>>98043635If the thread gets over 335 posts, its not OSR anymore duh.
>>98044096Actually, people care about integrity and quality, and having poor AI slop passed off to people and even sold to them is basically a scam. It's like the simplest ethics test, and ACKS failed. And, if it failed that test, what other shady shit would they be willing to do?
>>98043806Quantify your little bits or suffer others to have overlapping but different opinions subject to taste.
>>98044295>And, if it failed that test, what other shady shit would they be willing to do?How much samefagging have you done?
>>98044293Exactly yes, any “OSR” thread that goes over 335 posts is no longer an OSR thread
>>98043241The balor said the artist draw me like your French girls.
>>98043676>macris is a confirmed plebbitormy sides!
>>98043537Yeah, I'd agree with this characterization. Kelsey can write a solid modulev (though nothing I've read by her was exceptional), but she's really not that great at the systems end.
>>98043709Yeah, that's defo AI stuff
>>98043560It looks like the whole "ACKS uses AI art" did get them to give up slopping up the thread. It's a good thing to remember for the future.
>>98044563Idek why they like ACKS so much. There are so many better options out there. I guess they like to domain play, personally I never liked domain play that much, so a whole system designed around domain play is not appealing at all to me
>>98043942That make sense and yeah it looks at least AI modified
>>98044317What if the numbers are from 1st edition?
It's hilarious how fishfag drops all effort and pretense of having organic conversations one the thread reaches bump limit. And as soon as a new one is posted, there's a flurry of activity.
>>98042982I just woke up, but here you go, bozo>>98043000thanks for having my back
>>98044332Balor looking at picture. Not like that
>>98042989>your whole "2e is not OSR" stance is ridiculous even by the standards ofWE DONTCAREgo back to rpgnetgo back to rebbit!because we just dont give a fuck what you or the outside world thinks or cares about
>>98043136>These are so badmake specific criticisms.>the Alt-rightmaybe on planet retard
>>98044624NTA, but domain play sounds interesting in theory. But it really works out, ACKs wen t with the accounting route. Which is a fuck no from me. Other games try to get a middle ground, but it turns crunchy too which most players don't want. However folks who like ACKs are just the type of neurodivergent that loves that shit. We don't get it as we do not think that way
>>98043151please stop impersonating me>>98043165LOL >>98043029>y'allkill yourself you fake hillbilly tourist faggot.You are a literal self-admitted rpgnet/reddit transplant and a newfag scumsucker,AND YOU DONT EVEN UNDERSTAND THE FUCKING RULES OF THE GAME
>>98044877>neurodivergentCuck.
>>98044886>You are a literal self-admitted rpgnet/reddit transplant and a newfag scumsuckerAnd he thinks Shadowdark and AD&D 2e are OSR
>>98043280>soulfulness of 2eyou know how I know youre gay?
>>98043300>jealous of 2e's art, that's why they like ACKS!uhhhh?>also jealous of Matt Finch explicitly saying 2e is OSR...do you know what jealous means?
>>98043387>>98043382what does the word "shill" mean?
>mnnnm, I find this art to be lacking in quasi-commmunal emotional space!
>>98044905...Do you have brain damage?
>>98044970No not like the dyslexic hillbilly, now answer the question.
Ah the even troll shift has arrived
>>98044901>uhh your gay!I’m not the one photoshopping another man’s head onto Arnold’s body
>>98044843you are in the wrong thread anonyour echo chamber is the second left
>>98044835so what?there are men who call themselves womendoesn't make them that
>>98045142>attributing tranny arguments to LBB ODDkill yourself>>98045134I post where I please, juinor-janny>>98045086Not me.you know how I know youre gay?
>>98045218>Not me.>you know how I know youre gay?b/c you've got hard just looking at him?
>>98045368>looking at him?through his webcam??
>>98044563Lmao we stopped posting because there's no point in flooding a thread past bump limit, retard.Anyway:Last for 2e is not OSR.
>>98045733Anon, this thread is dead. The new one is here:>>98045379>>98045379>>98045379and it has some great discussion of ACKS going. See you there!
>>98045753nigger people can post in whatever thread they want
>>98043676>https://old.reddit.com/r/Autarch/comments/1i7lfhm/ai_art_in_acksii_books/>The overall art budget was in the high five figures, spent more on art and have more art than all prior books I've done added together.>five figures for AI slopYo that shit is EMBEZZLEMENT.
The new "OSR" thread is here:>>98045379>>98045379>>98045379Come join the fun!
>>98046098this thread is still on page 8, bozo
Last for 2e is not OSR.
>>98046934Hueh. Still can't manage it. What a cuck.
2e is OSR
>>98048504>2e is OSR
