If I have two and a half weeks in Argentina to visit Patagonia in late November / early December, should I just focus on Buenos Aires and El Calafate / El Chalten, or should I add more stops?I like the look of other places like Salta, Valdes Peninsula, Bariloche, Ushuaia. But I recognize that the country is massive and I don't want to spend too much time flying around.
>>2749516Argentina? I hardly knew her!
>>2749516Bro Argentina isn't white anymore I would be careful you could get robbed and killed man Shit's real out there, shit IS REAL.
>>2749516Depends on what kind of trip you are looking for. Re: PatagoniaThe whole corridor that goes from Bariloche to to San Martin de los Andes to Villa La Angostura is called the 7 Lakes Region. It's a popular route for hiking/trekking/biking/camping. It's an area filled with lakes, very cute small mountain towns, and Alpine-like climate. Many national parks and camping sites and trails. It's also a popular ski destination in winter but you are going in summer.The route continues further southwards, to El Bolsón all the way through Los Alerces National Park to Esquel, though this second stretch is less popular because the climate is way colder, even in summer a sudden snow can ruin your trip (It's beautiful though).The area you are targetting (El Calafate) is even further south, it's a very cute town but IMHO other than seeing the glaciers there's not much to do there. Santa Cruz province is more like Siberia rather than the Alps, it's more barren steppe and sparsely populated. There the plan is more staying at a hotel/hostel, do the tours, drink hot chocolate, but there's not much in the way of hiking (for a normie).Ushuaia is more similar to the 7 Lakes Region (more Alpine) despite being further south. It has some cool hiking stuff to do.Outside of Patagonia:Mendoza is cool for the wine tours but I see it more as a honeymoon/couple trip. San Rafael has really cool rafting sites though.Salta/Jujuy/Cafayate same as above except with llamas and cool rock formations. But you can always meet cool people on hostels if you sre travelling solo.Buenos Aires. Yeah spend some days here, there's a shitload of interesting things and cool nightlife. You could probably spend a lifetime and never get to know all of BA, it's massive. It's the gateway to the country so you sre probably be passing by might as well take use of the opportunity.Iguazu Falls. 3-day trip at most, not much to do other than see the Falls or take some tour of the jungle.
>>2749558This is the 7 Lakes Region, I recommend it if you like hiking and camping and meeting people.I did the two stretches. SMA to El Bolson in one trip. El Bolson to Esquel (the southward route) on a separate trip. Two weeks each time and had a blast in both.
>>2749531Nationwide it's safer than the USA.Particularly Patagonia which is Europe-tier.The only real place to stay away in terms of safety is Rosario (you can guess which province it is on this map lel), and some of the seedier suburbs outside of BA (south-western suburbs in particular). Otherwise take normal precautions and you'll be fine.
>>2749558>>2749561Also since you asked about Peninsula Valdes, I wss there as a kid and I found the whole town really lame, avoid that unless you are a biologist or some such that is desperate to see the whales, sea lions and penguins. (You can't even pet the penguins because they are autistic about smells and the other penguins will reject them if they smell like a Human... lame).
>>2749565>The only real place to stay away in terms of safety is Rosariothe city center of Rosario seemed fine to me, I didn't go to the shitty suburbs because I had no reason to
>>2749558>>2749561>>2749578Thanks for the detailed response. Is El Chalten similar to El Calafate in terms of not much to do? What I'm reading is that Calafate is a good stopover to see the glacier and then there is a lot more hiking and social opportunities in Chalten. Bariloche looks incredible but I am more interested in going further south because it looks more unique - I've spent a lot of time in the Alps and the Rockies and they look similar. Hence interest in Salta as well for cool rock formations and salt desert. Not so interested in Mendoza for the reasons you mentioned. Admittedly my interest in Valdes Peninsula comes solely from seeing the orcas beach themselves to kill sea lions, but I recognize that is super rare and probably won't happen, so it's an easy skip. Iguazu feels too out of the way to spend travel time on for such a short time (and I've already done big waterfalls in my life). So with 17 days - maybe Buenos Aires, Calafate / Chalten, then one of Bariloche / Salta / Ushuaia?
>>2749516Come to Jujuy instead
>>2749516How easy is it to rent a car in Argentina so you can see Patagonia? I can't imagine trying to make it to all these places on bus or something.
>>2749606>Is El Chalten similar to El Calafate in terms of not much to do? What I'm reading is that Calafate is a good stopover to see the glacier and then there is a lot more hiking and social opportunities in ChaltenI've never been to El Chalten so I can't give you any advice there anon, sorry. As to El Calafate, it's not that there aren't hiking opportunities, it's just that my impression when I was there was that the people doing hiking/rock climbing/camping, were a bit more "hardcore" (better equipped with special gear) compared to Bariloche/7 Lakes region which is more normie-friendly. El Calafate is filled with either normie tourists that just like to see the sights and stay comfy or the outdoorsy hardcore types, whereas 7 Lakes Region has more of an overlap since it's easier for a normie tourist to do the trails/go camping/etc. Not sure where El Chalten falls on this spectrum.Ushuaia is nice, it's like a smaller Bariloche climate-wise, and has a little glacier (Glaciar Martial.... not even close to being as impressive as Perito Moreno in El Calafate mind you) and lots of camping trails. Webm related is Ushuaia. >Bariloche looks incredible but I am more interested in going further south because it looks more unique - I've spent a lot of time in the Alps and the Rockies and they look similar.Fair enough, yes, if you've seen the Alps or the Rockies Bariloche probably won't be something new to you.>So with 17 days - maybe Buenos Aires, Calafate / Chalten, then one of Bariloche / Salta / Ushuaia?Sounds about right time-wise. That would involve flying to three different locations though, those spots are quite far apart, but if you are up for it sure. I would do 4-5 days in BA, and the remainder split between the other two locations.
>>2749929It's quite easy to rent a car but I would not recommend it. Argentina is BIG, we are talking about a 10 to 14 hour drive from Buenos Aires to Bariloche, and more if you are going further south, it can be quite stressful particularly if you are the only one driving and not taking turns with someone else. Most Argentines that go to Patagonia do so by airline (several of low-cost airlines these days) or just take a long-distance bus (those are quite comfy, air-conditioned, recliner seats, catering and all, but they take a long-ass time to get there since they drive slowly). Renting a car is a good option for driving locally once you are inside the area you want to visit but I would not recommend a long-ass roadtrip, crossing Argentina is like crossing the continental US except with worse drivers.
>>2749952>we are talking about a 10 to 14 hour drive from Buenos Aires to Bariloche* 18 hours according to google maps kekMight want to consider one of those Antarctic Cruises those stop all along Patagonia. Or just bite the bullet and take the three flights or a long-distance bus.
>>2749952>those are quite comfy, air-conditioned, recliner seats, catering and all, but they take a long-ass time to get there since they drive slowlyOne "advantage" of our rail network having gone bankrupt in the 1980s-1990s is that the bus companies stepped up to fill the gap. I think we have the most luxurious long-distance buses I've seen compared to other countries. So I would consider it if you want to save up money.https://www.nextstopwhoknows.com/luxurious-bus-journey-ever/Still, you are looking at a 20-24 hour drive in a long-distance bus compared to 2 hours by airline...
>>2749558>Mendoza is cool for the wine tours but I see it more as a honeymoon/couple trip.Mendoza is where you're going to see Aconcagua and the entire area between Mendoza and Chile is very scenic. Definitely not limited to wine.
Is it true that you can fly into Argentina and instantly establish residence? I heard that they are so liberal with their immigration/citizenship laws that they literally cannot deport you. If simply spending a week being a tourist can get you residency towards citizenship, then I want in!
>>2749565It kind of depends on where in the USA, like if Detroit or Chicago or south Florida then what the fuck?
>>2750595That has changed. Milei has cracked down on foreigners taking advantage of state services intended for residents.
>>2750595They won't deport you, nobody will check, but you will still be staying illegally. Getting residency is VERY hard, it can take more than a year nowadays. Some people get citizenship faster than residency (but that applies only to thoe who have immediate family in Argentina).Technically, you can apply for citizenship after two years living illegally, but it's problematic and I don't know anyone who actually succeeded.
>>2750595>>2750685It hasn't changed that much. What happened before, is that people from neighbouring countries (ie. Paraguay) did medical tourism, that is travel to Argentina, get an expensive surgery for free at a public hospital, and fly back to their country. Or study for free at a public university and then use their degrees on their countries. Which was a net loss for the taxpayer.Now you need to prove that you are a resident, to attend a public university or get an expensive surgery for free (they can't deny you emergency healthcare otherwise but now you will have to pay for it if not a resident), but it's still quite easy to get residency yes, and from residency comes citizenship which can be obtained after 2 years as a resident.You can get deported or denied at the border due to criminal record or suspicion of being a criminal but otherwise the Argentine Constitution says the government cannot restrict immigration of foreigners who want to "work in industry, education or the arts" so yes it is quite lax.
>>2750617Of course I was comparing nationwide averages, some areas in the US are Swiss-tier safe and others are more dangerous (same as in Arg).
>>2750819>but it's still quite easy to get residency yesIt's easy only for people from MERCOSUR countries, they indeed can get residency by just completing a form. If you're not from South America, you need a job to sponsor your residency, which is extremely unlikely. The only realistic way to get residency now is to give birth to a child, or find a spouse. Some people also apply for asylum and just hope to wait 2 years like that and request citizenship.
>>2749558>Buenos Aires. Yeah spend some days here, there's a shitload of interesting things and cool nightlife. You could probably spend a lifetime and never get to know all of BA, it's massive. It's the gateway to the country so you sre probably be passing by might as well take use of the opportunity.Nah, there's nothing worthwhile in BA. Yeah, it's big, but 99% of it is a total shithole, with the other 1% being mediocre at most. Spend as little time as possible there and go see the nature.
>>2749565Would you use your phone in the street in Argentina?
>>2750838There's a digital nomad temporary residency or a temporary student residency, that gets you permanent residency in 3 years. I dunno seems fairly easy to me compared to other countries.Otherwise there wouldn't be so many immigrants.>>2750925Yes? I do it all the time. I'm more careful in Microcentro or in shady neighbourhoods but otherwise it's fine. (Careful = I still use it).And I have a Samsung S23.Just don't walk staring at your phone bruh it's not that hard. Stop at a corner to type a message or something.Also anon is asking about Patagonia where people leave their doors unlocked and bikes unchained. You ever been?
>>2749516There's nothing to Argentina past-BA but run-down old barns and the far off but occasional rustbucket town that looks like it hasn't changed since the 1960s.If you want to go to the mountains that's nice, but it gets boring after a while. Better also hope you don't run out of gas out there, cuz you wont see a station for a long time.
>>2750920>>2750983The duality of man
>>2750976>Yes? I do it all the time.Yeah well somebody posted on BAExpats today that they had their phone stolen on the Subte. So I wish you luck, cos you're going to need it
>>2750976>There's a digital nomad temporary residency or a temporary student residency, that gets you permanent residency in 3 years. I dunno seems fairly easy to me compared to other countries.>Otherwise there wouldn't be so many immigrants.Digital nomad is only valid for 1 year and does not count for citizenship, unless you switch to another type of residency later. I don't know anyone who applied for it because if you want just to stay 1 year it's easier to pay the fine of 40000 peso for overstay when you leave.Student residency yes, but you need to speak Spanish fluently to study in Argentina, so it kind of unrealistic for most people from outside Latin America.What I see is 80% of immigrants are parents of newborn children, the rest are refugees or try to get the "rentist" residency, which most of the time Migraciones is just dragging the case for years, so they live on "precaria" residency without DNI.
>>2751169>they had their phone stolen on the SubteA phone pickpocketed on a crowded train? What is the world coming to. I'm so glad nothing like that ever happens in superior European countries
>>2751173They didn't mention what happened to them, but I never felt unsafe on the Tube in London or in Warsaw, where plenty of people used their phones while riding the train. In fact, let's not forget that the biggest train station in Buenos Aires is located right next to the biggest villa miseria.
>>2751194>where plenty of people used their phones while riding the trainEverybody uses their phones on the train here as well, in fact you went out of your way to google on expat forums for a case of someone having it snatched. Are you the troll at >>2749531 trying to derail the thread from the first post?Fact is Argentina is safe, not Europe-tier safe but US-tier safe, like I replied. You need to take common precautions against petty crime (don't flash around expensive jewelery, don't walk around staring at your phone and pay attention to your surroundings) but otherwise it's fine. Argentina has the lowest murder rate out of any country in Latin America and the US. Buenos Aires' murder rate is on par with Toronto's.And Patagonia is extremely safe, though I am sure if you google you can find news about some murder, or robbery or the like. (which do happen, sporadically)
>>2751204>in fact you went out of your way to google on expat forums for a case of someone having it snatched.Nope, I check it sometimes to laugh. There's a schizo on there who's really hilarious.>Are you the troll at >>2749531 trying to derail the thread from the first post?Why are you so paranoid? Are your little peronist fee-fees hurt?>You need to take common precautions against petty crime (don't flash around expensive jewelery, don't walk around staring at your phone and pay attention to your surroundings) but otherwise it's fine.Do not have nice things, always be on guard, always be alert, got it!>Argentina has the lowest murder rate out of any country in Latin America and the USDo tourists get murdered or robbed? It's usually the latter.>And Patagonia is extremely safeOf course it is since you can go for miles without meeting anyone.
>>2751211Wow, you're insane>Normal precautions on any major metropolis around the worldNah. This is what always makes me laugh about Argentines. Why do you always assume the rest of the world lives in the kind of hell you have created for yourselves. NK level of brainwashing.>You are some kind of pussy if BA seems too dangerous to travel to youI have a high enough IQ to never relax around latinos. And uh oh>no denial
>Why are you so paranoid? Are your little peronist fee-fees hurt?>No denial of being the same dudeQED.>Do not have nice things, always be on guard, always be alert, got it!Normal precautions on any major metropolis around the world. I got cornered by a beggar on Paris who demanded money aggressively (on a nice area of the city!) but you don't see me whining about Paris being unsafe.>Do tourists get murdered or robbed? It's usually the latter.You are some kind of pussy if BA seems too dangerous to travel to you, sorry.>Of course it is since you can go for miles without meeting anyone.No I precisely suggested the 7 Lakes region to anon because it's safe and extremely crowded with tourists from around the world and it's a cool place to meet people.
>>2751214>Nah. This is what always makes me laugh about Argentines. Why do you always assume the rest of the world lives in the kind of hell you have created for yourselves. NK level of brainwashing.Troll confirmed thanks for playing.
>>2751216>no denialUnfortunately, as you can see, this website isn't Reddit, so you can't edit your posts here. The point is to formulate your thoughts precisely the first time. But how would an Argentine know that? Everything you do is a mess. I simply cannot believe the Subte only recently allowed paying with cards and phones. Do you even have a mobile app for bus tickets? Oh, sorry, you are outraged because the city wants buses to look like in a first world country. Those tacky colours really worked well to show where exactly a bus is going, right? Isn't that one of the complaints? As if even seeing the line number in Buenos Aires is helpful by any means.
>>2751219>random spergout about buseslmao what a random thing to complain about. Could be better (I'm still waiting for the new subte lines they promised years ago), but tourists typically praise the transport system.2/10 troll.10/10 schizo.
>>2751221>but tourists typically praise the transport systemIf they can get a Sube, right? Oh wait, they can't
>>2751223Any tourist can buy a Sube card at a kiosk or at a train/metro station, I really have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. Looks like you are browsing random complaints at the BAexpats forum to whine about here.
>>2751228>Any tourist can buy a Sube card at a kiosk or at a train/metro stationDid something change over the last year? You couldn't buy them anywhere in 2023.
>>2751230That's true, they were more scarce in 2022-23 (don't know why) but now it's not a problem.
>>2751231Right, now the problem is different https://www.lanacion.com.ar/sociedad/el-tramite-online-imposible-largas-filas-y-malestar-de-los-usuarios-para-registrar-la-tarjeta-sube-nid07022024/
>>2751243>keeps googling for random problems to post about here, without knowing the contextSchizo behaviour.BTW, that queue is for the registration system to get subsidized cheaper transport tickets. (Which were dirt cheap I support them making it more expensive). Only during the first days you saw that kind of queues, later they allowed people to register online, so that's solved too.A typical tourist that wants to move around the city doesn't have to bother with registering the SUBE card, it's not worth the hassle unless you live here and use public transport to commute to work everyday.
>>2751221>tourists typically praise the transport systemI was surprised about how reliable and convenient the buses were, I usually try to avoid buses but they worked great there. The Subte is pretty good but the trains seem to move slow compared to other cities, probably because the stops are so close together. The commuter trains are cheap but I'd almost rather pay for an uber to avoid the Latin noise and chaos on those.
>>2751255We must have gone to different cities. One time I had to wait 2 hours for a bus to come. Every time I'd see the right line, the RAMAL would be completely different. Finding bus stops was a mess. Google Maps was especially terrible at helping find some random spots where there is a small sticker on a post somewhere. The Subte was as packed as Tokyo. And commuter trains are full of villeros, amateur rappers and other sellers of bullshit, just like the buses.
>>2751255>Latin noise and chaosb-but Argentina is a White country, right? All order and decorum and high trust, right?
