>>214289487
sasuke vs itachi is one of the most wasted potentials in media's history. a fight built up so much just to be total dogshit and over in 2 seconds.

>>214289487
>murders his entire race for the state

this would be bad, if not for the fact that the uchiha were an evil tribe, that kishimoto literally said were meant to be analogous to jews. so i'm glad they were all killed.

>>214289523
2 episodes for a fight is plenty. For some reason shonen fags love dragging fights out for 5+ episodes

>>214289487
He wasn't a good guy, he only didn't have a heart to kill his little brother and third hokage was incompetent bafoon.

>>214289523
It wasn't a fight, how do you lack media literacy that much?

Same op! Literally ruined Itachi.
T. Read Naruto for the first time this year

>>214289487
That's because it was. Made even worse by the fact that he wasn't even the one responsible and instead his dead cousin's the one who killed 98% of the clan

>>214289523
The problem wasn't length, the problem was it literally wasn't a fight. Itachi was half-blind at this point and still could have wrecked sausage from the very beginning, he was just playing with him. Sasuke didn't win, he just got spared. All that training and power seeking was ultimately for nothing and he didn't even really get his revenge.

>>214289487
He was more badass as a villain indeed.

>>214289523
the big problem with naruto is that dead people can come back, multiple times even
even though sasuke was always going to win it's not like itachi just went away forever

>>214289487
"a good guy"
he was a traitor to his family though

>>214290515
His family was bascially the jews though.

>>214290416
Itachi really was just a shitty Gary Stu. Naruto fans are really retarded for constantly praising and adoring this character.

>>214289487
Go back to /a/

>>214291191
Make me

>>214290494
The entire war arc is such bullshit because of this. You have villains with finished arcs like Zabuza and Haku who get brought back just to pad length ad nauseum. Not only does it ruin any resolution the original arcs might have had, it makes any future deaths seem pointless since anyone can just come back. And it ruins any immersion you might have had since we mostly only see villains that we, the reader know. It's not like Haku had much historical in-universe relevance.

>>214289626
>kishimoto literally said were meant to be analogous to jews
shit that never happened award

>>214289487
>>>/a/

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>>214291266
Also Shippuden looks far worse

>>214292351
It wasn't just the anime art direction that got worse, Kishimoto really started to suck at character designs after the time skip.

I always found it funny how the only (non ancient) character that dies was neji. Was it so Naruto could bang his sister without repercussions?

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Itachi going from a cold ruthless killer to "He was a good guy all along and undercover" was really fucking retarded and took any punch out of the resolution between Sauske and his brother. Had Sauske have to actually struggle with slowly becoming like his brother the more powerful he got would of been interesting. Instead once Sauske figures out the truth he just becomes an edgy faggot and is like "Imma destroy my brothers lifes work because I love him" shits retarded.

>>214292748
>he was a good guy who genocided his entire tribe including his parents and the women and children

>>214292779
Didn't Madara do all the dirty work? Hell, Itachi didn't even kill his best friend to get his Mangekyo (who was even more talented than Itachi, but no one talked about him). Plus, he was as much a lame crybaby as Sasuke. Every cool thing about him was retconned.
>Kisame, we're leaving
stay gone faggot

>>214292748
>a good guy
this is a bit of a strawman
I think kishi wanted a fall from hero -> anti-hero thing, but didn't bother thinking it through.
Itachi was a good character that was just used and executed poorly.

>>214292659
All part of Hiashis Keikaku to create the strongest clan.

>>214293482
It was Obito who helped him which yes I agree that retcon was retarded and makes Itachifags look way more stupid. Before he managed to solo his entire village but now it was yeah he had some super powered S-Class Ninja help him. It really kneecaps Itachi in the power discussions.

>>214291266
I have serious gripes with Shippuden but I sincerely make the argument that it should of ended after the Pain Arc and there should of been another time skip. The amount of power scaling that happens in such a short time is retarded. I think the War Arc in story is only like what 2 weeks?

>>214292351
It gets horrid once you get to Boruto. Kishi somehow made pastels and soft colors look bad.

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I thought it was retarded when I was a teenager, but now that I'm older and understand the true nature of jews, Itachi was 100% justified and correct.

>>214290494
The original way Reanimation jutsu worked was fine. You could bring back the dead but they only had a fraction of their power and they seemingly had no will of their own, just kind of a husk. I think thats fine but the mass spam of Reanimation then making them full power and on top of that allowing them to have some degree of free will they completely ruined any strategic use of the Jutsu to basically a retarded press x to have Fan service.

>>214292748
It was extremely retarded since none of his spywork on the Akatsuki was usefull. He could've at least warned Jiraiya or the leaf about Pain.

>>214290068
Hard agree. The biggest problem with Naruto is all the filler and the fact that characters will repeat the same line 12 times before finally making a move in a fight.

>>214293962
Oh ffs thanks for reminding me about that. That just made me hate him even more. What was the point of Jiryas reconnaissance then.
>inb4 Itachi was an Leaf Insurace Policy
Again this makes no sense since Itachi did pursue Naruto multiple times pre shippuden (Which is why that retcon is ass btw) on top of that Pain only had to resort to destroying the Leaf because they were the only Village that wouldn't give up their Tailed Beast all the others sans Garra didn't really care.

>>214292748
>cold ruthless killer
never really happened

the hints were there all the time, there were retcons? yeah, but Kishi never planned him to be a full villain

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>>214289487
The entirety of part 2 is so bad it's good.

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>>214289487
They all had to go.

>>214289487
whats dumber is that they tried to paint what he did as something a “good guy” would do

>>214289487
part 1 was better
part 2 didn't lived up to expectations

>>214294188
>>214294381
Opinions the post

>>214294345
The Uchiha had planned a rebellion. If they had, cue world war 4!

>>214289487
not really? he could have killed sasgay at any time. any excuse to let him live was already a huge contrivance

>>214289487
It would be a good twist if done properly. It's a problem with the weekly manga format and constant retcons. Naruto would benefit greatly from a complete rewrite.

>>214292748
>spend years trying to get strong to kill the brother who murdered your clan
>even join an evil group to help
>finally kill him
>actually the old village you were in was the ones who told him to kill your family
>”wow can’t believe this 15 year old would snap and make rash decisions”

>>214294448
Agreed. The lore of Naruto was already starting to show cracks back during the early days. The Chunin exams was definitely a point where questionable things started popping up in canon. Kishi also sidelining any character that wasn't Kakashi, Naruto or Sasuke was definitely irritating. If it was rewritten back to being the original strategic Ninja fights that it was early on then I think it would be much better.

>>214294574
The series began with a man fighting a Godzilla sized 9 tailed demon fox which he not only defeated but SEALED inside the body of a baby!
So.tell us when was it that the series, to you at least, jumped the rails?

>>214294173
Thats just cope on Kishis part to make it seem like he had a plan all along and Itachitards grasping at straws to defend the retcon is pathetic. I can at least respect the Itachi fans who wanted him to be a full on Villian. The "Uchiha" curse would of had more weight if you had someone like Itachi to point to but other than Madara you really dont. You can't even use Obito because he saw his best friend kill his waifu after being left for dead he didn't really have anything else to live for.

>>214294636
The tailed beast aspect of it was fine even tapping into their power. It was the constant power scaling to the degree the fights were only marginally different than DBZ. If you want my honest opinion the series truly jumped the shark after the Pain Arc. All the power scaling before that was fairly reasonable sans the Shadow Clone Jutsu XP glitch (Which was a massive red flag stuff was about to get retarded)

>>214294696
>power scaling?

A man fought a Godzilla sized Demon Fox and SEALED it inside a child.

Define power scaling whence compared to that.

>>214294443
What was his excuse for mentally scarring his brother for a second time in the op pic and putting him in a coma that only the best medic in the world could wake him out of if he was supposed to be a good guy and brother?
>>214294173
There were literally 0 hints. This is pure cope.
Itachifags are so retarded, goddamn.

The itachi clan depiction is the most Japanese thing to ever come out of Japan.

>obsessed with bloodlines
>murders each other and takes their eyes
>blinds their own eyeball to have a one-time nuke on their rivals (kamikaze shit)

>>214292504
Shippuden is like a retail wow post lich king - no soul, all established aesthetic and design guidelines are thrown away, caters to the most common denominator instead of creating something unique

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>did nothing wrong

>>214295580
more like
>did everything wrong
it is comical how much of a fuckup this guy is, literally caused every single problem

>>214290574
Gary Stu's make for great side characters though, they make for a great ideal for the main characters to measure themselves against, to see where in their journeys they are. Having complex character arcs and full development for a character that only shows up a few times is just a pointless waste of screen time and effort.

Itachi is actually a great example of a Gary Stu side character being ruined by the author trying to add depth, backstory and development to it.

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>>214289523
Personally, I think Naruto vs Sasuke was worse. It's well animated, but it's just so damn boring compared to the way it was hyped up in promo media a decade prior.

>>214293880
Something like that. Hell, like a 100 or so of the episodes takes place in the span of a single night (so not even a full day, literally just during the night)

>>214295580
he never got over petulant childhood shit with hiruzen and based his entire life around being bitter about it. If Kishi was a better writer, he would have weaved in that realization

Never watched the anime, only read the manga, I couldn't stand another 200+ episode filler filled slog like watching Dragon Ball Z as it aired.

>>214296062
It's only watchable if you look up a list of filler episodes and skip them.

>>214289523
On the other hand, Tengen Uzui vs Gyuutaro is the biggest "exceeded potential" anime fight ever.

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>>214289523
>Too bad...you're in my genjutsu
>No, you're in my genjutsu
>No, you're in my genjutsu
>No, you're in my genjutsu
>No, you're in my genjutsu
>Well here's an ability that's never been set up that is sure to destroy you
>Actually, it's MY ability that's never been set up that is sure to destroy YOU
>WHAT'S UP EVERYONE IT'S ME OROCHIMARU RETURNED FROM THE DEAD, AND BOY IS IT GOOD TO BE B-
>ACK
>Now I'm finally going to kill you and get my revenge
>I'm dead? All according to plan...

>>214296302
>WHAT'S UP EVERYONE IT'S ME OROCHIMARU RETURNED FROM THE DEAD, AND BOY IS IT GOOD TO BE B-
>>ACK
Orochimaru is so based.

>>214289487
It makes sense though.
Why would someone kill their parents and their entire clan at the age of 13? How could someone, even as skilled as Itachi manage to kill an entire clan in the dead of night without the whole village swarming in?
It makes way more sense that someone with a space-time jutsu was teleporting in and helping Itachi kill the clan and that there was a conspiracy - likely Root keeping the village from noticing by taking measures.

Itachi, when acting as a villain, claimed that he wanted to “test himself” by killing his clan. How is it testing himself to assassinate people in the dead of night?
Testing himself would be fighting against a Kage.

Again, it makes zero sense if there isn’t a twist.
Also, if Itachi really wanted a Mangekyo, he would have helped Sasuke obtain the Sharingan first, helped him develop it to the 3 tomoe level, then he would have killed his parents in front of Sasuke in order to obtain the Mangekyo Sharingan.
Obviously, Itachi knows to obtain the Mangekyo, you have to see someone in front of you die that’s important to you. You don’t have to kill someone important to you, otherwise how would Shisui have the Mangekyo?

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>>214294848
Motherfucker how dense are you. In the anime and manga during the attack on the leaf we see so little of how that actually went down. So we can only infer what type of jutsu was used in order to make that happen. Again I can accept that this world has supernatural animals living in it with lots of power, once again said demon being sealed inside child thats fine Minato and Kushina literally had to sacrifice themselves to make it happen. Then finally said beast is so strong that their power and influence leaks into the host. Said thing has been done by countless anime and other mediums. Its when the hosts then get to use the beasts as basically unlimited chakra wells and start pulling larger and larger ass pulls because of it. Before Naruto using the tailed beast power was incredibly dangerous and he risked losing control after he "trained" and by trained I mean talked no jutsu the nine tails he gets the biggest asspull powerup in the war arc.

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>>214295804
>Gary Stu's make for great side characters though
No they don't, not when the writer keeps sucking them off and treats them like a messiah that never did anything wrong.
>Itachi is actually a great example of a Gary Stu side character being ruined by the author trying to add depth, backstory and development to it.
He's not an example of a "good character" if the author failed at properly write him.
Ffs you sound like a pretentious and pseudo-intellectual moron. You're an embarrassment and a retard.

>>214289487
GO TO YOUR OWN FUCKING BOARD SASNIGGER!

>>214296324
When Orochimaru showed up during the Chuunin exams I'm pretty sure everyone was shitting their pants about it. I remember being on YouTube at the time and watching the low quality clips of the Death Reaper jutsu at the end of that fight and thinking "How strong does this snake guy have to be that the Hokage (at the time the strongest ninja) has to basically kill himself to beat him". Orochimaru really was unmatched

>>214295057
>What was his excuse for mentally scarring his brother for a second time in the op pic and putting him in a coma

That and torturing Kakashi for days on end in a distorted time hallucination that made seconds seem like hours. A scenario that would have been the most convenient opportunity to covertly inform Kakashi of his double-agent role

>>214289487
Obito being called "cool guy" was the worst part of the series.

>>214297096
Also Orochimaru who kidnapped and experimented on children gets away with everything.

>>214290561
it's true, that's why they have magical powers and everyone is jealous of them.

>>214297114
He said he was sorry kind of.

>>214297096
He wasn't called a cool guy a hypothetical version of him was called a cool guy. Don't forget to eat breakfast and check your smoke alarm.

>>214289487
I loved it. Itachi is the best. Very satisfying set up and pay off for the character.
>>214289523
Retard tier take. Consider suicide.

>>214296756
Orochimaru beat a 70 year old man way past his prime….
What an accomplishment…

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>>214296658
NTA but I think what he meant to say was that Itachi served as a good benchpost for Sasuke's development as a character. I certainly would call what Itachi eventually became a total Gary Stu: He is retconned from a murderous psychopath to a loving brother. That is complete horseshit. But insofar as being more powerful than Sasuke, it was good that he served as a looming threat for him to have to tackle. A better approach would have been a typical three-part structure as seen in most fantasy: In the first confrontation, the hero is clearly outmatched. He only escapes with his life due to intervention of some sort. In the second, the hero having grown more powerful faces his opponent on equal footing, only to realize after a short time that he is still far beyond his goal. In the final, he has finally ascended beyond his opponent, and after a hard-fought battle reigns in victory.

Sasuke's character arc should have focused around his growth as a man from brooding teenager consumed with revenge to a powerful and unencumbered warrior, defeating Itachi and revealing his inherent weaknesses that stopped him from achieving the heights he could have were he a moral person. Instead like most manga the author simply decided to use it as a vehicle for fanservice, and since Itachi looks kind of cool changed everything about him to make him a good guy. The entire series is filled with this shit, it's obnoxious. Even if it's written for teenagers you should still have good plot structure.

>>214296756
You are absolutely correct, I remember when that fight first came out reacting exactly like that. Much of the manga leading up to the timeskip was pretty damn good, but especially everything up to that fight was terrific.

>>214289487
Ninja really woke up and decided to paint his nails before work, huh?

>>214293958
I am strongly of the opinion that any form of communication from the dead is a huge mistake in most fiction. The finality and uncertainty of death and what lays beyond it is relatable to all people, it severely dampens our ability to take any story seriously when the stakes are lowered by confirming the existence of an afterlife. Kishi should never have fallen into this fanservice situation where everything became a playground just so we could see old characters on the page again.

>>214297530
Which is what they should have gone for. While I like the idea of all of Team 7s senseis being the Legendary Sanin I have often wondered why they didn't have Kurenai train Sauske ever at one point pre-shippuden but Kishi can't write a competent woman to save his life and went so far to nigh character assassinate Tsunade.

>>214296756
The original Naruto was so much darker and it always felt like a threat was always hanging over Team 7. After The Chunin Exams the series got much more light hearted, I couldn't even take Sasuke leaving the village seriously because of how overly edgy it came across and I was an angsty teen at the time it aired here in the US and even I thought Sauske was being kinda cringe and whiney.

>>214289487
Go back to /a/

>>214299571
go back to discord/reddit/twitter/facebook

There are few inherently evil people in this show, even Kaguya was only "evil" after she ate what was effectively the fruit of knowledge.

Even Madara questions himself and thinks back to his old friend in the moment of his 'death'. Most people are either misguided or somehow tragic individuals with strings attaching to a 'before it all went wrong'.

>/tv/ is too media illiterate to even understand fucking Naruto

Sad

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>>214299989
And that's a good thing. The idea that no one is too far gone is a good message for the middle school audience. And it made for a good cast of villains since almost all of them actually had something to say instead of just being evul for the lulz. It also contributed to the pottery of them all either being failed versions of what Naruto is trying to achieve who lost themselves along the way or the potential result of what could happen if Naruto failed.

>>214296756
Orochimaru was always a threat when he wasn't (temporarily) dead and it's insane that he basically got away with everything

>>214289487
i do

the uchihara are retarded, of course it took someone with 3 digits IQ to realize they needed to be genocided for mankind's sake

>>214297196
Isn't it later implied he's still doing his whole "using child subjects to be immortal" shtick despite that?

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>>214300334
>gets killed
>has a spare body
>gets killed for real this time
>Kabuto resurrects him
>gets killed absolutely for real
>appears out of curse marks
>gets killed 200% for real
>Kabuto becomes Orochimaru
>gets locked in an infinite Tsukuyomi, being killed physically and spiritually forever
>appears out of a curse mark, again

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>>214300369
This, Tobirama did nothing wrong.

>>214300386
I think so. I didn't watch Baruto but I think he has his own village again.

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>>214289487
Itachi was and is a cunt. But he still has the best goth bussy game in all of anime and Manga. Next to Kakuzu of course.

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>>214299989
The whole of Naruto is essentially just one giant therapy session disguised under the veneer of a ninja manga. Which is rather fitting because of how much it plays to a ninja's nature of hiding in plain sight.

>Kills entire clan to save Konoha
>Village gets invaded twice and destroyed anyway by outsiders
What a useless ninja

>>214293962
He could've warned them about Orichumaru and the sound ninjas/sand village. Nigger was useless along with the anbu squad.

>>214294426
They got wiped out by one guy, the hokage, would've crushed them.

>>214289487
agree. that was where the series started to decline, but the Pain arc was still peak.

The JRPG style train of end boss switcheroos out of nowhere at the end though...

>>214295836
These fights are lame, why not start with the giant frogs/snakes?

if itachi was so strong he could btfo the whole village, then he could have waited until there was an actual battle to help konoha without killing everyone

and it spoiled sasuke's revenge, which was very kino

>>214297114
>experimented on children
He raped them, that shit was more than implied.

>>214290416
>All that training and power seeking was ultimately for nothing
No

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>all these manchildren analyzing and debating the paper-thin plot of a japanese cartoon

>>214302567
>He says, posting a reaction image of a cartoon frog on an anime website

>>214302152
the point was avoiding prolonged suffering because his retarded clan was getting into a battle they were going to hard-lose, and there was no convincing them otherwise. So atleast they all die relatively quick, and there's no chance of survivors left to become untouchables from the societal fallout.
His only real other option was abandoning it all and fleeing with sas, but thatd be tedious and also a whole different story.

>>214302567
naruto shippuden has one of the best plots of any TV show ever. it's for intellectuals really.

also madara did nothing wrong

Itachi was cool as a bad guy

>>214302712
Ok good point. Hand me that baby.

>>214292351
what was the reasoning to making him a femboy?

the uchihia clan gets fucked by two guys, did they ever have any chance in a civil war?

>>214302931
The only thing that can kill an Uchiha is another Uchiha.

>>214302931
>clan full of overly-hyped jobbers
nope

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>>214302931
Two Uchihas

Considering how ridiculously over the top depraved Itachi acted, it was retarded. No one keeps up a charade of that level of indifference to slaughter for that long.

>>214302567
naruto being almost 30 years old and still getting heated discussions is truly a testament to how enthralling it is, while still being heavily flawed and outright shit at points.

>>214302931
Didn't they hate some of the old Hokage for BTFOing them so hard they're still seething like Confederates are irl? Just sitting there grinding their teeth down over how hard they got BTFO?

>>214296571
Dense? Hey Yo! A mortal man defeated a Godzilla sized Demon fox and then sealed.all million pounds in a 5 pound baby. Are you retarded?

>>214296571
And how did Minato do it? He used a god like deity Made by other mortals!!! Let that sink in, The Uzumaki made a god that can seal chakra gods/demons! And you're on about MUH power creep? ARE YOU RETARDED????

>>214303062
No, they were blamed for the nine tails attack and ostracized

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>>214303062
best hokage never liked them, yeah
He grew up in the trenches and knew the uchiha were autistic retards who'd ruin everything, especially madara.

>>214296421
>How is it testing himself to assassinate people in the dead of night?
You just said it would be nigh-impossible task to pull-off
>Again, it makes zero sense if there isn’t a twist.
If by twist you mean the reveal that someone was helping him, then yes, that's mostly fine. The retarded twist was the reveal that Itachi is some kind of shitty anti-hero

>>214296756
Naruto was at its best right after the exams when the premise was that Oerochimaru was just training Sasuke so his body could contain his power as a vessel. Then it shit the bed completely when Jirachi refused to become Hokage and Tsunade was jammed down our throats.

>>214289626
itachi going through his own village and killing them all was basically a historically accurate retelling of the Kristallnacht

>>214303585
The Uchiha were behind the nine tails attack tho

>>214289487
ok so there are a couple moving parts going on. madara sends obito to tell the uchiha clan to commit a coup d'etat. Madara does this so he can overthrow the village and obtain the ninetails so he can do the tsukuyomi.
obito, who at the time was pretending to be madara, even though he was merely serving him while the real madara hid in the shadows, tells the uchiha that he will kill them if they do not cooperate. itachi was presented with a no win scenario and decided to become a double agent betraying his clan and spying on the akatsuki, who were also under madara's control.
its the big picture. yeah did itachi do something wrong? yes, but was it for the greater good? yes.

>>214304524
An Uchiha

would you rather enjoy the mugen tsukuyomi or go back to konoha which is run by a retard (naruto)?

>>214298313
There's a world where You could adjust some of Anko's story into Kurenai so that Sasuke has that Orochimaru connection maybe prior to his first confrontation. You could get Orochimaru being Sasuke's sensei after he defects with a short battle between Orochimaru and Kurenai or something.

Would also make for a more coherent storyline in other places, not like Kishimoto did much with Anko anyway...

people dont understand the rammifications of naruto. the hyuga clan knew of the origin on the byakugan but kept it a clan secret not allowing outsiders to obtain its power.
the uchiha clan, although the stone tablets were altered, knew about the infinite tsukuyomi and the origins of the nine tailed beasts. there are many secrets within naruto, these secrets shape how clans behave within the world. what you have to understand is that the big picture in naruto that people cannot understand is that a good portion of it is maintaining power, or power grabs. i hate to say it, but the uchiha clan were pawns. obito was a knight, and madara was the queen, while kaguya is the king on one side of the chess board. ultimately there is a game within a game being played, most the time people see the uchiha massacre and blame itach. some people understand he was set up, and people that really understand the story know its 10d chess from kaguya, with man-let madara getting fucked over. big picture is what mattered, stopping the tsukuyomi was the endgame.

what is it with the japanese having mass murdering characters say "my bad" once, then suddenly be forgiven for all of their crimes

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>>214304904
>not like Kishimoto did much with Anko anyway...
depends on what your definition of 'much' is

>>214305489
if the United States can do it after dropping nuclear bombs why not

>>214305728
The United States could do it because it was the victim of a surprise attack by an imperialist power.

>>214300386
No, he's just lite paperclip Mengele now