spartans kept slaves. it is hypocritical that in this movie they talk about "muh freedom". it's pretty clear this film was made by and for amerimutts.

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>>215075647
Nationalism is a very specific idea of people with a common heritage inhabiting the same country and not just pride of your place of origin. The spartans and other greeks were opposed to nationalism if anything as they explicitly didn't want to unify into one nation state but keep their city-states.

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>>215075647
Fuck I love this movie

>>215075675
Not only that they made holidays to go around mass murdering and raping their slave class. No one else mistreated their slaves so badly. Not even muslims or rome.

>>215075647
Gayest movie ever made. The one woman in it is a dyke.

>>215075647
But why did they make the Persian (Aryan) king black?

>>215075717
source

>>215075692
The Greeks saw themselves as "Greek" in the same way that Whites today see themselves as "White". The Greek city states all had individual laws and customs while still sharing a unifying sense of Greek-ness, and they didn't want a unified Greece in the same way that modern Whites don't want their countries to become one massive cultureless blob.

>>215075773
It was made during the height of the war in the middle east. Go figure.

Spartans were retards with an unsustainable model. They should make a film about how dumb Sparta was

>>215075860
>a unifying sense of Greek-ness
Yes, "Boy-lovers" as Leonidas said in the film.

>>215075675
Slavery was the cost of defeat in every ancient culture, retard. It was a standard practice.

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>greek
>white

>>215075860
>in the same way that Whites today see themselves as "White"
only americans do this btw
>they didn't want a unified Greece
so they were not nationalists.
Nationalism is explicitly about destroying local customs to create a unified body from one nation. Look at France for example: they used to have local cultures and Occitan was basically its own language. With nationalism in the 1800s these were destroyed on purpose.

>>215075783
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypteia

>>215075941
Makes for easier governance though

>>215075943
>Every autumn, Spartan ephors would declare war on the helot population which would allow them to headhunt helots without fear of punishment.[13] The chosen kryptai were then sent out into the countryside armed with daggers with the instructions to kill any helot they encountered travelling the roads and tending to fields they deemed too plentiful. They were specifically told to kill the strongest and to take any food they needed

>>215075916
Is it morning in tel aviv already?

>>215075984
Yep. The Spartans were dumb as fuck.

sounds kind of cool desu

>>215075996
Greeks are sea Armenians

>>215075675
they are talking about their own freedom, not freedom for all, or for all slaves. I don’t think that is hypocrisy. It would be hypocrisy if the condemned another nation for keeping slaves, or if they said it was wrong in general.

>>215075941
Nationalism was a response to a world where vast empires forced various peoples to intermingle under the same government and in the same countries. The Greeks did not need to worry about this, since everyone who wasn't Greek was considered a barbarian and an outsider. Obviously it's impractical in the modern world to have every single city be its own governing entity at the level of international politics, but nationalism is in the spirit of how the Greeks viewed themselves compared to outsiders.

Meet The Spartans is miles better than this slop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQrr2BFawck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSB4hxsohdM

>>215076020
>It would be hypocrisy if the condemned another nation for keeping slaves,
I haven't watched this film in a decade but I'm pretty sure they did

>>215076021
Proto-nationalism, like what the Greeks had, was organic, but it quickly grew into a state-enforced project of cultural homogenization.

you guys do realise this movie is pretty much 90% fan fiction right? not even real greek people take it seriously.

>>215075647
nationalism didnt exist prior to 19 century

>>215076098
Wrong. Joan of Arc was the first modern nationalist, according to Churchill.

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>>215075647
>white

but meds aren't white. they're meds

I’m gonna watch 300 now

>>215076124
>ignores the wallace and bruce
What else would i expect from a bong

>>215076130
Meds are white

>>215076124
nation states didnt really exist prior to 19 century, its a very new concept for humans

>>215076021
The ancient greeks didn't have a sense of nationhood at all or anything close to it. Hellene was a shared loose culture, mostly the tongue. Each polis warred with the other constantly. Nationhood doesn't exist as a concept until industry starts picking up. Over a thousand of years later. It didn't happen because of imperialism, which had existed as a concept far before nationhood did. The Greeks didn't have a civilizing mission, and didn't view outsiders as barbarians in the same way the Roman's later did. They didn't like them much, but again, they fought with one another constantly.
Nationalism happened because of a need to centralize control over the forces of industry in order to scale them up.

>>215076146
He actually does say that Wallace might have been an exception, but then he kind of ignores him.

>>215076152
>>215076155
Shalom

>>215076152
the polis and its colonies were effectively a nationstate.
>>215076155
>The Greeks didn't view outsiders as barbarians
how can you be so ignorant and stupid?

>>215076175
Lmao accurate history is a Jewish trick!

>>215076155
>Hellene was a shared loose culture, mostly the tongue.
And the gods. And the customs. And the sense of shared identity. And the ethnic ties.
>didn't view outsiders as barbarians in the same way the Roman's later did
I didn't say that they did, because the Greeks weren't Roman. The Greeks viewed outsiders as non-Greek, which is what they were.
>Nationalism happened because of a need to centralize control over the forces of industry in order to scale them up.
You can absolutely centralize control over various people without nationalism, look at Austria-Hungary or the Ottoman Empire. Nationalism was not primarily an economic program like you seem to suggest.

>>215076198
>how can you be so ignorant and stupid?

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>>215075773
they didnt... he isnt black and he doesnt even look black in the movie.

>>215076209
>And the gods. And the customs. And the sense of shared identity. And the ethnic ties
They had very different customs. That's the whole basis of the polis system. Everything else falls under "loose culture."

And yes the greeks viewed non greeks as non greeks...I'll give you that one...

As mentioned, imperialism as a concept pre-dates nationhood as a concept. So the ottoman empire and austro Hungarian empire...were empires, not nations

>>215076175
good point, jews existed as a subjects of various empires, ottoman, russian etc. nation(state) of isreal as a concept was invented in 19/20 century
nation states as we view them today didnt exist, people where subjects of a king or emperor

>>215076269
You're legitimately retarded if you don't understand the nuance that regardless of Kings people had nationalistic identity. There's plenty of historical examples of people having nationalistic identity while under foreigners or even Kings of their own stock.

>>215076254
>They had very different customs.
Yes, but despite those differences the Greeks viewed themselves as much closer to their fellow Greeks than they did to non-Greeks. You dismissively call it "loose culture", but to the Greeks it was very important.

And while nationhood is a complicated idea that did take time to develop, a basic idea within nationalism is that a people should be able to rule themselves rather than being ruled by another people. This goes back to the Greeks, back to the Romans, and later back to William Wallace and Joan of Arc. To act like this is an instinct that only came about in the 19th century is idiotic, and makes you seem like you're intentionally peddling lies.

>Exaugustus Boiοannes was a catepan of Italy, from 1041 to 1042. He replaced Michael Dokeianos after the latter's disgrace in defeat at Montemaggiore on May 4. Boioannes did not have the levies and reinforcements that Doukeianos had had at his command. He arrived only with a Varangian contingent. Boioannes decided on trying to isolate the Lombard rebels in Melfi by camping near Montepeloso.

According to William of Apulia, prior to battle Exaugustus made a speech to the troops as follows:

Lads, have pride in your manhood, and don't allow yourselves to have the hearts of women! What cowardice makes you always run away? Remember your forefathers whose courage made the whole world subject to them. Hector, the bravest of men, fell before the arms of Achilles. Troy was reduced to flames by the Grecian fury. India knew of the gallantry of Philip. Did not his son Alexander through his bravery make the strongest of kingdoms submit to the Greeks? The west and indeed every part of the world was once in fear of us. What people, hearing the name of the Greeks, dared to stand before them in the field? Towns, fortresses and cities could scarcely render their enemies safe from their power. Be valiant, I pray you, remember the courage of your ancestors, and don't disgrace them by placing your trust in your feet [alone]! He who dares to fight like a man will overcome the strength of the enemy. Try to follow in the footsteps of your ancestors, and abandon now any idea of flight. All the world should know that you are men of courage. One should not fear the Frankish people in battle, for they are inferior both in numbers and in courage.

>>215076332
No you're the biggest retard in this thread man. These are really basic facts of Greek history and world history that you're fucking up really badly.
Or, I guess, you're just intent on making nationalism mean something like "peoples" or "states," which it doesn't mean
>>215076344
The greeks fought with each other about which one of them was even Greek. That was what drove the fighting half the time. They were bigoted as shit toward each other on an ethnic basis. The only time they'd ever really get over it was during external invasion, and they only had to do this a few times. There was no Greek army, no Greek government, nothing like that.
They didn't have the same fucking cults in their cities.

>>215075647
>Hypermasculine militaristic culture
>Gynocratic rule by women
>Train all your life to be a soldier
>Lose to a bunch of militiamen drilled for 3 weeks by some old ass greybeard

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>>215075717
>Not only that they made holidays to go around mass murdering and raping their slave class.

It was a lot more regulated than that

>only the Krypteia were permitted to carry out such killings
>only allowed to do it one month of the year
>only permitted to kill male Helots deemed to be the strongest (i.e. the ones most capable of rebelling), women and children were off-limits

Here's the thing, serving in the Krypteia was a requirement for basically any high honor in Sparta, so quite literally every member the 300 (including Leonidas since he had originally not been supposed to inherit the throne and had gone through the Agoge system like all the other Homoioi) had personally slew an unarmed Helot at least once.

>>215076392
Holy fuck of course it's te same thing. Are you telling me people have a unified idea of self and an existing state aren't Nationalistic? Do you hear the retard mental gymnastics because its NOT JUST LIKE WHAT WAS IN DA 1800S

>>215075647
Awful films? They're made all the time.

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>>215076394

You forgot

>trained extensively in receiving and dishing out assrape by their own teachers

>>215076401
I'm sure they didn't constantly go way beyond just that. They're also described as entirely living off the land during this time. They were basically bandits unleashed on the helots to do as they pleased. The Ephors directly declared war and that means everything that entailed.

>>215076406
They didn't even really have one bro. They understood they all lived in this place and spoke the same language and had the same pantheon(with very different cults). Other than that most of the time they fucking hated one another and never really acted as a unit

>>215076392
Yes, the Greeks fought amongst themselves constantly. That doesn't change the fact that Greeks viewed themselves as different from non-Greeks. They were one people with multiple city-states.

>They didn't have the same fucking cults in their cities.
No, but they had the same gods and the same basic structure of the cosmos. It's easy to forget in this secular age, but back then the kinds of gods you worshiped was a big fucking deal. It wasn't a minor cultural blip, it was one of the main things that made you who you were as a people and defined your identity.

>>215076448
And despite all that they still believed in an idea of a unified Greek people. Not just their cities.

>>215076438
It's almost as if they were compensating for being spiritually castrated by their whore females having a domineering role at home and in estate management so they had to rape and kill all the time to feel manly, contrast that with athenians or even those greeks who lived south of thracians, they simply hated women and told them to make babies and look good and if not then neck yourself

>>215076458
>That doesn't change the fact that Greeks viewed themselves as different from non-Greeks.
That's just a tautology. Yes of course. But that's not a nation. A nation is a uniform culture that can act at scale, which became possible after industrialization. We didn't even really use the term before then

And honestly the rest of it just you getting emotive about cultural bonds. Sure. But you were factually wrong about how you depicted all this

And yeah the gods were such a big deal that they fought with one another over them more than they fought anyone else in their entire history. Weird "nation"

Were shitting up the thread so imma stop.

>>215076021
LMAO nationalism was dreamed up by corporations to convince people they had an identity based solely on where they were born. It was literally a way to sell you values and products and keep you distracted while those in power rob the coffers blind and fuck children. And of course right wing retards fell for it like they always do. One of the earliest advertisements we know of is "true roman bread for true Romans" lmao you fuckin pathetic cucks will literally buy overpriced, undercooked bread if someone in power tells you to.

>>215076509
Actually the dumbest thing ive read on this website. Holy shit.

>>215076509
Roman nationalism predates that on it's own and so does everything else. Read some fucking history instead of facebook posts or wherever you concocted that retarded anecdote into something resembling an opinion.
>people use an existing thing like nationalism for marketing
>DAT MEANS THEY INVENTED IT

>>215076498
The Greeks had a culture that was uniformly similar compared to outside cultures, but which had variety among its own city-states. This is true among virtually all nations today, someone from New York is going to have some cultural differences from someone in Texas but they'll still both call themselves Americans. Why you think this viewpoint wouldn't also apply to the ancient Greeks, despite every single Greek historian pointedly making a difference between themselves and non-Greeks, seems very odd to me.

And yes, the gods you worshiped in the ancient world were that big of a deal. You have been dismissive about them so far, probably because you personally don't care about the divine or the supernatural, but to the people of that time they really, really mattered.

>>215076509
Dude you really made me reconsider everything man capitalists pigs are so infuriating I love mass immigration now thanks bro honestly white people give me the ick now

>>215076551
Japan had literally been closed off from the world for a 100 years when nationalism rose there. It is wasn't a way to sell a "japanese identity" to the rest of the world, it was a way to sell it to japanese people so they wouldn't care about the heinous war crimes they were committing.

>>215076509
Seriously with that logic you just used modern Corporations invented Liberalism to sell products with all their pride flags and social baiting. We both know that's fucking retarded.
>>215076580
Japan already had a nationalistic identity long before that why do you think they closed off to the European jesuits trying to conquer them? They were pissed their people were being enslaved and abused by foreigners.

>>215075941
>Occitan was basically its own language
You picked the only 100% made up regional language lol

This thread is AIDS

>>215076606
Liberals are right wing. And no there was not a unified japanese identity you fucking retard it was literally a feudal kingdom lmao

>>215076509
Youre suggesting that modern corporations convinced people to be tribalistic, a characteristic of human kind that predates all modern corporations? You are so fucking stupid it hurts

>>215075647
I just don't enjoy this movie.
Have nothing negative to say about it.

Just every time it comes on, I'm not particularly entertained.
Seems even a little gay because it's just man thighs and abs.

>>215076632
I'm the other anon but hold up. You're wrong too. Rome wasn't a nation either, but you said this;

>One of the earliest advertisements we know of is "true roman bread for true Romans

Nations are directly a result of technologies enabling coordinated movement as a unit, at scale. Railroads. Electricity. The industrial revolution.

But I'm following your logic here and now I'm interested. What do you think the alternative track should've been, or should be?

>>215076655
nationalism is when people live in tribes apparently hahahahah

>>215076682
hahahahahaha or there's more than one definition to the word tribalism and you're a fucking monkey brained faggot hahahahahaha

>>215076673
Rome very much had a roman identity and concept of state. The roman identity was tied up in servitude to the roman state. And people all over the world throughout history have lived in societies that weren't tied to a national identity.

>>215076732
>Words mean whatever I want them to mean!!!
Pretty much sums up right wing retards to a tee

>>215076733
Yes, it was a republican city state with provinces, which then became an empire. Not a nation. I'm not disputing that roman identity existed or that they didn't understand that they had a government.

And yes people have done that, but nation specifically comes into play during industrial revolution. You critiqued this, I'm asking how else it could have played out

>>215076758
It could have played out any number of ways lol. Are you trying to suggest that the horrors of capitalism are just the natural state of being for man?

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>>215075647
>dude spartans were so badass
don't make me tap the sign

>>215076782
I'm trying to assert that population growth and technological advancement are mutually reinforcing, and create both the need and the opportunity for centralized states with one will, aka, nations.
Which is why this took place in every area of the world that invented or adopted any technologies beyond the wheel and the grain mill.
So, is your alternative that...what? What is it?
We should get rid all of it and go back to tribe and manual labor?

>>215076782
>horrors of capitalism
lmao
but yes greed is integral to human nature

>>215076800
Sparta was brought low by Epaminondas of Thebes, not Philip II. Philip II then in turn brought Thebes low.

>>215076841
Regardless Sparta stopped being relevant after the Peloponnesian wars

Did the Communist run away? I wanted to hear his plan.

>>215076152
Before modern republics and nations, people had a sense of identity and loyalty to their kings, religion, language/culture and territories.

>>215075647
Culling your population by post-birth aborting babies that might have a larger cheek than the other and then subjecting your kids to fight lions or whatever to the point that you have 300 people left to fight in a war is something like what China has done to itself with the one-child policy.

>>215076048
>>215076048
I can't believe America runs the world. This is the worst possible timeline.

I named my son Leonidas just because of that movie. He’s 5 now