Why is he a bad guy again?
because he creates net-negative happiness in the universe, and he takes all his actions knowing that will be the result
something something millions dead something muhammad alhamdulillah
he was a fakecel who wasn't strong enough to follow through with the golden path
he falls for the utilitarian fallacy in thinking the ends justify the means and that it'll all be worth it in the end, when, even if we grant he has accurate sight hundreds or thousands of years into the future, he does not know the consequences millions of years beyondhe may simply be murdering and genociding people for nothing in the end, and acts like he is helpless in being forced to commit violence, and abdicates all personal responsibility for his actions and fails to take ownership of his own soul and destiny
>>215307894>golden path aka dude become a virgin worm for a millenia
>le messiah that every simpleton follows to war this is just bad and dishonest writing
>>215307815He's French.
>>215307971idk about that nigga
>>215307815He is neither a good guy nor a bad guy. Herbert was inspired by Ibn Khaldun's notion of the cycle of civilizations in the Arab world. It is simply inevitable that the decadent empire will eventually get overrun by barbarians with greater asabiyya, the only question is how it happens. Paul gains superpowers, the ability to see the future, but this doesn't actually make him powerful, quite the opposite. All it does is show him that he's another pawn of fate, with limited free will.He accepts his destiny because there is no other choice. He lets himself get molded into his destined role, and commits the necessary atrocities. Asking whether he's good or bad misses the whole point. The whole point of the Golden Path that his son takes on later is to figure out if it's possible to escape fate and escape the tyranny of prescience. Can you stop Khaldun's cycle? Is it an essential part of nature?
>>215307951>he falls for the utilitarian fallacy in thinking the ends justify the meansHe doesn't tho. That's the whole point of Paul is that he breaks under his own philosophy and his son has to pick up where Paul left off and ends up a worm in the process.
>>215307815Did they...?
>>215307951>fails to take ownership of his own soul and destinyThe fallacy of this line of thought is that it assumes atomized individualism, that man is an atom totally free from outside influences. That he is totally non-deterministic. Aside from the points I made in >>215308033I should point out that this story is also about desert ecology, which Herbert was also very interested in. Changing one aspect of the desert can change the whole ecosystem. The fate of the desert is tied up in all of its elements, not just one. This furthers the theme that Paul is not an isolated island, but a boat caught up in a storm. He can't stop his destiny and can't stop the Jihad by himself. He even says at one point in the book that even if he dies the jihad happens anyway. Everything is connected and the hero is actually powerless.
>>215308017I guess you have a point
>>215308033It’s a fallacy to think you have no choice - you always do.
>>215307815He did nothing wrong
>>215308328Paul knows he has choices, and knows which ones to make, and why. The future he foresees has already incorporated them.
>>215308355He used innocent men, women and children for his vendetta. Plus he fucked his mom.
>>215308328You have limited choices, and you are not fully in control of your own destiny. You are a product of the world, not a disembodied spirit that came out of the void ex nihilo.But all of that is actually beside the point. It doesn't matter what you personally believe about free will, but what Herbert built into the story of Dune. Prescience exists, therefore the world is mostly deterministic in the Dune universe. The whole point of the Golden Path is that escaping prescience/determinism is hard, and it required a superhuman worm planning over millennia to maybe make it happen possibly. You can disagree with the philosophy, but that's how it works here.
>>215307815>Why is he a bad guy again?Kills more people than Hitler
>>215308328Your fate is fixed, Havi. You may work your way through the weave as you so choose, but the threads only go one way.
>>215307815Falls for his own hype, turns into a massive cunt, fucks off and lets other people clear up the mess and do the difficult stuff
>>215308421Lots of people have already done that already. Hitler was pretty unremarkable in terms of contenders for the high score. By the time Dune takes place, there'd probably have been thousands of despots with a Hitler-tier kill count.
>>215308528>there'd probably have been thousands of despots with a Hitler-tier kill countNah, they even talk about Hitler and Stalin in Dune Messiah. While they're childs play compared to the Butlerian Jihad or Paul, they're still up there.
If we don’t have choices then we aren’t even conscious, just soulless automata no different from a rock
>>215308528Yeah, they sound like bad people too
>>215308437Absolutely not true. His prescience fails after Ghanima is born. Leto's own prescience shielded her existence. Paul was relegated to a gadfly role after that.
>>215308613Why his son gotta be a worm bro?
When does dubs messiah get good?
>>215308613>His prescience fails after Ghanima is bornThis is actually a good point. Having prescience interferes with other people's ability to see the future.This and the navigator shielding the assassination plot are foreshadowing that Leto is right to some extent about the Golden Path. It IS possible to beat prescience. Don't know if that actually changes destiny or just distorts your vision of it, but it's a clue maybe proving him right.
>>215307815The book is making some point, but the movie is definitely DOUBLE-SPEAK/THINK: you're supposed to be in awe of this character/actor, yet also accept all its promo/scripted gobbledygook about "danger of charismatic leaders" -- while treating Chalamay as exactly that. Doublethink is training people to hold contradictory thoughts like good sheep, so they can be manipulated repeatedly as there is NO CENTER, no unwavering principles, only FOLLOW THE NARRATIVE.
>>215308591This is blatantly wrong. Religions historically had plenty of determinism, it's not just a materialist thing. Christians have struggled for millennia explaining how free will can coexist with an omniscient god. Hinduism is pretty fatalist, and so were Germanic and Greek mythology. Muslims take fate and Allah's omnisicience very seriously, and pre-Islam Arab pagans didn't believe in free will either. This is actually relevant because Arab/Muslim beliefs are a huge part of Dune, whether anyone likes it or not.
>>215307815>mahdi>jihadHow did they not get in trouble for shamelessly ripping off Islam word for word ?
>>215308861All those religions are pagan - most Christians are either dualist or trinitarian with God, Jesus and the Holy Sporit, and Islam deifies Muhammad and says he was sinless and names their children after himFree will quite easily coexists with a singular God. Just because I can perfectly predict your actions does not mean you didn’t make a choice
>>215308644Worm man’s saddiq haderash, come off it
Literally because he’s the white guy who rules brown people
>>215308657Dune series just keeps getting more and more schizo and preachy as it goes on. God Emperor is mostly just Leto blathering on about philosophy and how he can't get laid. Then after that Herbert moves on to hyper mega coomer shit and space Jews.
>>215308889Remember in Dune 2 how Paul reveals to the Fremen that Arakis used to have a Fremen name?
>>215307815There's no good side. Just a lot of bad sides fighting for power and vengeance.It's based on the middle east after all.
>>215308916I was just kidding. I like the book and wanted to discuss it. Not done with it yet though
>>215308889It’s not ripping it off it’s what Frank thought islam would become
>>215308918>Dune.2021.1080p.HMAX.WEBRip.DDP5.1.Atmos.x264That's a long name for a planet. Must be some kind of special space designation.
>>215308901>God has a plan for you and everything is according to his plan>You get to choose thoShut the fuck up, Kierkegaard. Calvin already btfo you before you were even born.
>dude he's bad because he does a little bit of genocide to secure a million years of peace and prosperitythe ends outweigh the means. paul is a hero.
>>215308965Liberals hate this man!
>>215307885sixty one billion*
>>215308901>Free will quite easily coexists with a singular GodYou may believe this, but it is far from a settled theological matter. Plus as I said this is an Islamic story mostly.>Just because I can perfectly predict your actions does not mean you didn’t make a choiceYeah, that's called Compatibilism, and it doesn't refute determinism. Your choices are still bound by cause and effect and your nature is affected by the world around you. Even if you're making a choice, it's not happening in a vacuum ex nihilo for no causal reason. You still don't totally own your destiny. You are part of a long chain of cause and effect, which God initiated.There is an entire sect of Christianity that goes hardcore anti free will like Islam. It's called Calvinism. You can disagree with it, but it exists.
>>215308955that’s the claim of specific religions that god has a plan and I didn’t assert that please respond to me as an individual instead of using me as a prompt to say whatever you want against a strawman in your mind
>>215308927I enjoyed them all and I would recommend them. They definitely get weird later though.
>>215308644So he can live long enough to do what he gotta do.
>>215308901Free will doesn't exist because your actions are at the mercy of physics that cannot be circumvented.As long as your mind is subject to physics then free will is only an illusion. You had no choice because alternate choices were not actually physically possible in this universe. They only seemed possible.And this argument is not dependent on determinism. Even if physics is nondeterministic you still don't control it. It would be like throwing a dice and claiming you chose the outcome. Even if the dice was nondeterministically random, you don't control where it lands.
>>215309010>religions are historically determinist>nu uh, not muh christianity>yes your christianity>pls treat me as an individual instead of focusing on my religion k thxYOUR FATE IS FIXED HAVI. YOU CAN EITHER GO TO YOUR GALLOWS CONTENT WITH THE REALITY THAT YOUR CHOICES WERE MADE FOR YOU OR LIVE WITH BLINDERS ON. YOUR RIDER HAS CHOSEN YOUR PATH REGARDLESS.
>>215307815Because he’s not giving up that bussy like he did in Call Me By Your Name. He should learn from Tom Holland.
>>215309104We don’t fully understand physics, let alone how quantum mechanics functions in the brain waves of our mind. We’re clueless as to why reality even has an experiential quality to it, i.e. the sense we are experiencing something >>215309123I’m not Christian, just an agnostic deist, that’s how much you’ve assumed
>>215308889The movie didn't use "Jihad" it used "Crusade" because they are pussies
>>215309202>agnostic deistExplains why you don't know shit by treating Christian metaphysics as separate from Hellenic metaphysics. For the record, most Christians are at minimum compatibilists. There are exactly 0 actual Christian denominations that believe in true free will.
>>215309277I have the right to have an opinion about religions, I just refrain from telling them they’re practicing it rightly or wrongly unless it’s a very blindingly literal contradiction. Most Christians and Muslims I’ve personally known are basically pagans in practice, not all but most.I assume you have an opinion about religions not your own, and might even decry some sects as not truly Christian (e.g. how some do with Mormons).
>>215309330You have a right to have opinions, so long as those opinions are based on fact and not your made up head canon over what you think those religions might think about a subject. Christianity's world view is heavily based on Hellenic stoicism, not Judaism as /pol/tards and fundies like to espouse. Ironically, most early jewish to Christian converts ended up gnostics which is about as dead a religion as actual nordic paganism.
>>215307815in jodorowsky's dune, he gets stabbed to death. but then his consciousness is spread to everyone else on dune, plant life and a fucking absurd amount of spice starts growing everywhere and covers dune turning it green, a blue ring forms around the planet. then dune gains its own sentience and takes off into the universe to do the same for other planets it comes across.in the exact words of jodorowsky, "i raped frank herbert! i raped him, like this! but with love, but with love "
I like Dune overall but imagine being a white guy and getting obsessed with Arabic cultureDisgusting
>>215309728>imagine being a white guy and getting obsessed with Arabic culture
>>215309704>in this unfilmable non-existent imaginary clusterfuck ...
>>215309934he wanted it to be something like 10-14 hours long and the studios refused to hand over any money if it wasn't 1 1/2 hours or less. they also thought it would only be around 15 million to make which was hilarious.but it was unfilmable back then, these days it could be done as a 1 or 2 season show
>>215307815>Why is he a bad guy again?Because Chani is a stupid cunt who doesn't understand how royal marriages work...
>>215309136That's pretty zestsy
>>215309245Pretty sure they just used holy war didn’t they?Using jihad in the 21st would be insane though. In the 60’s nobody knew what it meant
>>215311585True that people actually know what it means now but it's braindead pearl clutching to freak out over it
>>215307815in this house paul atreides is a hero end of story
>>215308565kinda stupid, desu. In 10,000 years no one has killed more or a similar amount of people? A missed opportunity to fill out the fictional history of Dune more.
>>215308096the scene is so weird
>>215308017Jesus is not Jewish.
>>215313524Then why was he circumsized?
>>215308033So how did the small population of a single desert planet genocide the galaxy? Even the big Muslim expansions lost steam eventually.
>>215309202Even the domain of physics we don't understand still suggest determinism. The only way to define "free" within "free will" is with theistic metaphysics. Each potential layer of reality, as long as it is beholden to a system and not an independent sentience, is deterministic. You can't even really define free will without omniscience.
>>215307815He's a amalgamation of the notorious 20th century dictators, which the author obviously had a hard-on for.
>>215307951paul sets the jihad in motion before even becoming prescient. thats why he completely breaks down when he sees the jihad, because he realizes he's completely powerless to prevent it and the best he can do from then on is minimize how much damage it will cause to humanitypaul's great sin is using the fremen for his own ends and treating them merely as tools for political purposes. him forging them into his version of the sardaukar is what puts them on the path of jihad
>>215308033>He is neither a good guy nor a bad guy.no he's definitely a bad guy. but he's not a comic book bad guy that does bad things just for kicks.he's a tragic villain that unintentionally lets loose an unimaginable evil in his quest for personal power. he doesn't realize militarizing the fremen to reclaim "his" planet will cause the jihad, but that's not an excuse. he could've accepted the loss of a world that never truly belonged to him but he felt he had the right to own a world he had never set food on until recently and would go to any lengths to exercise that "right".the tragedy comes when he gains prescience and realizes he royally fucked up and now humanity will pay for his sins. he knows he didn't cause the jihad on purpose but he knows it is entirely his fault.
>>215313827Herbert had this belief that people who survive harsh tough environments breed stronger soldiers, like the Emperor's elite dudes used to be the best of the best, but the Fremen survived even harsher life so they are superior warriors.Plus the movies leave out when the other Houses reject his bid as Emperor, Paul has the Spacing Guild on his side and they control all space travel so they basically grounded any attempts at space travel to fight back against Paul.
