Are there any watchmen fans who genuinely believe Veidts decision was the correct one?Like morally and objectively the way to go
No. A coalition held together by fear of a common enemy will always be unstable. Everyone will constantly be looking to secure their own supremacy once the threat has been eliminated, and the alliance will also inevitably dissolve once the squid/blue penis never strikes again. It simply was not a pragmatic long term solution, and was actually pretty naive and short sighted for a supposed supergenius. And then inevitably, once enough time has passed, someone will find out what really happened and nite owl and all the remaining "superheroes" will be lynched.So yeah. From both moral and pragmatic standpoints, Rorschach was right.
>>215542113No obviously not. I know it's considered the chud take now but Rorschach was right to be disgusted, and was in fact the "hero" of the story. Even Alan's revisionist takes won't change that, he was obviously written as the primary protagonist and flawed hero.
Me
>>215542113Moore obviously does. He's spent a good chunk of his life getting mad a people who cheered for the character who opposed Veidt.
>Nixon and Kissinger as harbingers of peace.My ass. Not in a million years would this have ever lasted for more than a decade or two. Veidt was the villain of the story. No two ways about it. Pompous asshole with a saviour complex.
No, especially not with the way that it got changed to blue man being the bad guy>>215544162grr nixon worst man ever grr
He's a smart guy, I'm sure he would have fixed the bugs in the blue man making machine sooner or later
>>215542212Though people rightly have some strong feelings about the show, I appreciate that they had Veidt take this into consideration and have smaller events with tons of little dead squids drop randomly from the sky all over the world in order to assure that they would remain terrified of it happening again.
deluding yourself into believing that killing millions of people is the only way to bring people together is absolutely psychotic behavior
>>215542113Pfft, no, he's the bad guy
>>215542113The only way you can really say it was a good idea, is if you are 100% positive that nuclear war was going to happen otherwise. The world of Watchmen seems to suggest that it was much more inevitable than it ever was in real life.
>>215542113even if it were to work as he intended for a generation or two, people are fundamentally retarded and will just eventually ignore the lessons passed down to them and return to fighting each other in time. we are just three generations out from the world wars and young people already are back to acting like war isn't a big deal, valuing their idealism and ignorance over the lived experiences of people who actually lived through them.
>>215542264not only is rorschach the hero and chud-coded, ozymandias is a lib-coded villain with his faith in his own elite expertise being able to mold humanity against their nature. "we'll just trust the science and do X, i'm sure there will be no negative second-order effects."
>>215542113I see the logic of it. Objectively morally correct? Can't say.But hopefully most people would get to a point in their adulthood where they would realize good and evil are not so simple.
>saving millions by killing billions
>>215544455isn't it implied it's the other way around?
i think we won't know until we try it. let's blow up someplace and say it was aliens. due to the high population density i nominate india
>>215542212>dissolve once the squid/blue penis never strikes againfact. for the "common enemy" plan to work, the threat must be constantly reminded.this means that humanity must be attacked every few years or so.
>>215542113Yes, it's morally correct and objectively the way to go. Tell me, why do you automatically see his plan as wrong and the government's plan as right? Because they're the government? They're definitely always going to do the right thing and it's the only course of action?
>>215542212Once one common enemy is wiped out. Just make a new one. We have plenty to pick from.
>>215545866>to stop these two superpowers from nuking cities we'll just continuously nuke cities
>>215542113I think everyone in this thread including OP are posers and didnt understand the book because that very question is already answered in it. Movie is better than the book btw
>>215546039Why would I read the comic if it's inferior trash? You're retarded.
>>215546039nigger, this is /tv/.
>>215545824>Tell me, why do you automatically see his plan as wrong and the government's plan as right? Because they're the government?no, because his plan is retarded and also objectively doesn't work even in the short term (since rorschach's journal gets leaked), let alone in the long term that ozzy envisioned
Alan Moore worked himself into a shoot; essentially the theme he was working was anti-determinism, but he went to far into authoritarian principles, essentially man as God. That's why every normal human identifies with Rorschach, because we know we are not God, we are victims of whimsy, and we pursue justice anyway. A lie is a lie, simple as.
>>215542113He could have simply dropped the squid on tel aviv
>we'll have peace on earth as long as we keep faking the existence of evil aliens forever and also nobody ever slips up
>>215542113it was a brilliant plan, no notes
>>215542264>Even Alan's revisionist takes won't change thatCare to explain? Rorschach isn’t depicted as a hero at all. Just a fucked up guy.
>>215543420Yeah, but that's revisionism. He obviously did write Rorschach as the hero but didn't like how readily chuds took to him and his enthusiast they are about Rorschach's hard headed mindset.
>>215544280It is a difficult path, but a choice some have made
>>215546323he's a fucked up guy and yet functions as the hero in the story because he's the only one who doesn't bend to evil. it's not hard to understand.
>>215542212fpbp>>215542113The idea of setting up an elaborate lie as modern mythology is totally absurd on its face. They tried to do the same thing in The Dark Knight, and I was utterly confused by it as a kid because the idea is so retarded. But the point is to condition the audience to think that it's good for people in positions of power to lie to them, whether it's the police (which superheroes represent) or billionaire vigilantes (which don't even exist). The Noble Lie is at best a retarded idea cooked up by delusional rulers and at worst sophisticated propaganda.
I literally spent every scene this guy was in waiting for him to spit the marbles out of his mouthGo back and watch his scenes, the fucking actor can barely speak lines out loud correctly. It's like he was concentrating so hard on holding his face like that his tongue swelled up.Malin Ackerman was also a tragic disaster, she was 90% capable of projecting the sense that she was getting dicked in the sex scene and then after that she was a blow-up doll.Jeffery Morgan Dean was also so completely drama-class inept they might as well have turned on the house lights every time his character was on screen.
>>215542113>ah yes, a rogue american asset that was paraded as america's greatest weapon for years nuking half the world including america's biggest enemy the ussr will surely end the cold war and make former enemies unite against an american fuck up and will never lead to america being ostracized or outright nuked in retaliationhack snyder is a fucking retard
>>215546323He's the protagonist, the narrative of the comic is shown from his perspective and his actions are what drives the story. He's shown in a sympathetic light and the story is written so that even his most violent actions (killing the paedophile) are seen as justified and good. Every other character is shown to be morally compromised at some point other than Rorschach. He doesn't have to be a perfect human to be the hero of the story.
>>215542113The purpose of a bandage is to cover a wound long enough for your body to repair it properly. Keep in mind the time period the series is set in. We know what happens, they do not,it's a reasonable action.
>>215546393>They tried to do the same thing in The Dark KnightAnd it was immediately exposed in Rises. I hate to be that guy but, "media literacy"
>>215546501Rises was utter trash and came out years later. I barely even remember what happened in that movie other than the fact that I couldn't understand a single line of Bane's dialogue.
>>215546393>The idea of setting up an elaborate lie as modern mythology is totally absurd on its face.
>>215542113I would have blown up some overpopulated shithole like India or Mexico, and say the naked blue guy did it. That way, the whole world truly wins with losing some overpopulation while ending the cold war.
>>215546519Ok but it wasn't pushing the narrative you've been saying it was for more than a decade. Don't be intellectually absurd, it makes you very easy to dismiss.
>>215542113>Like morally and objectively the way to goveidt is not moral nor was his decision. he was a leftist
These days I am having a really hard time believing morality and justice even exist. Justice itself seems to need a foundation of injustice - for example, a society like ancient Greece needed to delineate between slaves/barbarians and citizens. So all sorts of horrible things could be done to the former, but not the latter class. This doesn't actually seem just at all. And yet if you don't enforce that type of delineation, you get a system totally open to abuse by outside elements. Genuinely kinda need help here if anyone has insight into this sort of thing.
>>215546622It literally was. The end of the movie is glorifying Batman for lying to the public to protect Harvey Dent's image. I don't care if some shitty sequel retconned that after the fact. The Dark Knight was a self-contained narrative that was very obvious and clear. Don't talk about media literacy when you're this wilfully retarded about media.
>>215546546i know you're thinking le holohoax le wooden doors but that shit's a retarded internet meme. the real post-ww2 liberal world order is based on subtly mythologizing factually real events, like pretending the nazis were far more of a threat than they really were, not staging some elaborate fiction with actors and sets. the le holohoax le fake moon landing counter-memes are simplifications designed to sell the idea that "what they want you to believe is fake" to the cleetuses that don't have the iq to comprehend the much more subtle ways in which the liberal world order is founded on falsehoods.
>>215546546If your society is built on a web of lies, it is destined to crumble. Lies are always temporary. Truth is absolute.
>>215546913I was thinking of older lies desu
>>215546936Your idea of truth wouldn't happen to be about 2000 years old would it?
>>215545866Jews for instance
>>215546943like what? if you mean muh christianity that wasn't "constructed" in this way either, but developed organically through myths and theological significance accruing over time around a real person's real biography.
>>215547045No, modern Christianity was constructed by Constantine to unite the disintegrating Roman empire.
>>215546323Crazy yet principled > sane but immoral
>>215546905There are three movies in the trilogy and you selectively ignore the third. Understand why I'll ignore you.
>>215547081like, what, he sat down and faked the new testament and so forth? because that's what we're talking about here, and it would be retarded. he just used an organically-developed cult to his own ends.
>>215546936>My 6 gorillion
>>215547241You can't be crazy and principled.
>>215546913>I know your thinking this but no *cue hyperbolic tirade*Great argument bud, really proved your point about "foundational lies"
>>215547279Says fucking who? Crazy is just counter to accepted sanity. What if the majority are mentally deficient?
>>215547259>media literacy if when individual movies don't mean anything, only complete franchise "canons"nta but you're retarded.
>>215547275No, he commissioned a council to collect the teachings of the various Christian cults in Rome and decide what was canon and what was not. This became the Bible. This will be my final word on Christianity: It's awfully convenient for Rome that Christianity's teacher taught people to "render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's" - ie. to pay their taxes. Based on what he says elsewhere, I have a suspicion that the historical Christ, if there was one, would have at the very least not cared whether people payed their taxes to Rome, or would have been an active dissident. Additionally, it's some incredible hubris to assume fundamental Truth has anything to do with a man who lived 2000 years ago. This is all neither here nor there, because there are even older and crazier foundational lies.
>>215547352I AM that anon and YOU are retarded. The Nolan trilogy has a thematic point when taken as a full work. You choose to ignore the "synthesis" conclusion to the classic "thesis-antithesis" story telling arc. You literally rob the story of its point and expect me to pay you credence? Like your inability to digest a narrative is a badge of honor, or intelligence? STFU you fucking plebian. Slay all cucks.
>>215547332If we're defining crazy as like ... actually out of touch with reality and unable to function, and not just "I am have a different view than the majority", I don't think a person who is sufficiently crazy to be non-functional also has the capacity to be principled. I'm talking like the severely handicapped here.
>>215547305>i have nothing to say but i'll act dismissive and smugreally proved your dad should have molested you harder, homo
>>215547417I'll say what I'm thinking:I think your a bitch, very womanly. That's why you argue like you do. Probably raised by a single mom, probably thinking about hrt. You have the most childish, half-digested opinions I've ever seen. And yet somehow, you think you shit cinema..
>>215547411Rorschach was definitely lucid, perhaps detached but still in reality. Ofc people with maldevelopment would not understand morality, but that's beyond Rorschach and further, ignores who defines "crazy" in an immoral world.
>>215546971How is Christianity in any way relevant to the discussion?>>215547259Cool so you are just retarded. No point discussing further because your brain is literally incapable of comprehending my position. Go fuck off and watch the latest capeslop.>>215547277Exactly. The lie is doomed to be uncovered.
>>215547407>b-but m'lord, dost thou expect me to give credence to thine recriminations????? i shall surely faint i'm so flabbergasted!!!you are an incredibly pompous 95 iq faggot. if a filmmaker releases a complete movie with a beginning and an end then you are free to interpret that movie as you please without waiting for what he might change his mind about in a sequel. the basic unit of a filmmaker's work is "film" not "trilogy" or "quintology" or "the mcu universe." he didn't want the film to be read that way? then he shouldn't have made it that way. please try to be less gay
>>215547554Lmao the fact you can be such an asshole when I call out your trashy consumption of film then sick my dick when I holohoax post. You can go fuck yourself too.
>>215542212The point of the space squid was to show that there is an unknown potential of enemies in the universe that could attack at any time. We would need to be reminded of it regularly, but it would be a real boogeyman for the world. This is why the change in the movie doesn't work... the danger comes from a single being that was created on earth. Humanity would reasonably believe that he is gone for good within 1 or 2 generations and that there are no other dangers.
>>215547554>How is Christianity in any way relevant to the discussion?Christians tend to believe in this idea of "absolute truth" I am unsure, if we are really serious about this discussion, whether any man can lay claim to understand "Truth" at all. This gets into Eastern philosophy, and this board probably isn't up to the discussion.
>>215547609>I read 1 of 3 pieces in a trilogy, now I'll explain to you what the trilogy was trying to say thematically Eat a dick, didn't even read
>>215547468>let me abandon the subject to make smug poses and write fanfiction>but YOU argue like a woman>also let me start randomly talking about trooning out because it's on my mindthanks for this glimpse into your troon faggot mind, troon faggot.
>>215547709You arent arguing, you're spiraling.
>>215547658nobody said anything about "a trilogy" except for you. it's a film.>b-but you didn't watch the five sequels and read the comic book and play the video game so you can't say anythingi can and i will. live with it, homo
>>215547731you abandoned arguing posts ago when you had no real response to >>215546913, so i'm just calling you a troon faggot for fun.
>>215547362>No, he commissioned a council to collect the teachings of the various Christian cults in Rome and decide what was canon and what was not.so, absolutely nothing like what we're talking about, which is intentionally staging intricate fake events for the purpose of creating a new mythology. he just selectively used an existing organically developed body of religious thought for his own purpose, like i said.
>>215547818I am alledging that Constantine might have added things to his benefit, like the idea that good Christians pay their taxes. I am also alledging that the resurrection and miracles of Christ might have been made up.It's very easy to make things up. I could say "I died a few years ago, and now I am a ghost haunting the internet". If I had powerful allies, like Constantine and the Roman government, such allies could decide people should think this is true.
even Veidt doesn't believe it himself. he wasn't in the right, he just did what he thought needed to be done
reminder: the real cold war ended with the collapse of the soviet union due to cooperation with the west and their entire economy being "corrupted" by capitalism, leaving the soviet union as nothing but empty ideology on top of a system completely at odds with it.in the comic, veidt and osterman had solved all the economic issues that forced global cooperation between the superpowers. veidt's genetic engineering solved all food crises forever, osterman synthesized enough stable lithium to solve the oil/energy crisis, thus preventing chernobyl. With no reason to cooperate for any reason, the arms race intensified and and the ideological schism deepened. Which meant veidt did need to manufacture a reason to force global cooperation, for the economies of the east and west to intertwine to produce things neither could on their own.
>>215547948>I am alledging that Constantine might have added things to his benefiti understand that, but i don't see how that's an argument for the plan in watchmen being feasible. constantine, even in your view, is only making subtle alterations to an already existing body of organically developed myths. he's not setting up elaborate mythologies from scratch via large-scale stagecraft, he's not making romans believe in hell by having a million soldiers dressed as devils rape them in the streets. it's not a relevant comparison. the question isn't "do people believe in myths" but "is perfect top-down control over mythology possible"
>>215547611I didn't suck anyone's dick. Sounds like your brain has been poisoned by all that gay porn you've been watching.
>>215547647Truth exists and it doesn't take Christianity to realize that. The sun will rise tomorrow. The sky is blue. Dogs bark. Epistemological relativism is a mental poison.
>>215546905The third portrays the truthers as terrorists and that the conspirators (Gordon and Wayne) are heroes.
>>215542212Yeah, just like that backlash that happened to all the people who staged Gulf of Tonkin, right? Or all the other exposed ops.
>>215548300>i understand that, but i don't see how that's an argument for the plan in watchmen being feasible.Given the modern Bible being largely based on a construction by Constantine, and the unclear historicity of any of its contents, that's exactly a mythology on which the modern world is predicated. So if any one miracle or teaching of Christ was fabricated, Veidt's plan is more than feasible. It's already been done before. >constantine, even in your view, is only making subtle alterations to an already existing body of organically developed mythsBefore constantine, the myths surrounding Christ would have been, at most, folk mythology. Even if, against all odds, some of it were true, Constantine regardless used the mythology as a political tool. The resurrection of Christ is remarkably questionable, but billions of people still believe it, because a Roman emperor decided it would be best for his citizens. Again, Veidt's plan seems very feasible.
>>215548452you fundamentally don't understand how constantine wielded power vs how veidt is trying to. constantine is not fabricating the miracles of christ, (part of) the populace already believes in the miracles of christ, because they want to, because the christian heaven is something they want to be real. he's piggybacking on organic myth. veidt is trying to force people to believe something they themselves don't have any psychological reason to believe, to induce arbitrary desired behavior on a planetary scale. that's where the foolishness of his plan comes from. it's pure hubris.
>>215548356There is no guarantee the sun will rise tomorrow, that dogs will continue to bark, or people will still consider the sky to be "blue".That latter issue depends especially on language and how people perceive the sky. "Blue" is only relevant to speakers of the English language. There are primitive cultures who don't even have words for the colors that we do, and we don't necessarily have words for all the right colors. We can't even see beyond a limited spectrum. On top of all of this, humans only understand the world through their senses, which are remarkably fallible, as interpreted by the mind, which is also remarkably fallible.We each have our own perspective on what is outside us, and we can communicate that with others until we agree on what seems to be common between our experiences, and we think that agreement is "reality" but there is no guarantee we're really ever talking about the same thing.
>>215548570>constantine is not fabricating the miracles of christThat's quite a truth claim.
>>215548648how so? you've said yourself the mythology predates him. are you going to tell me christians didn't think christ rose from the dead before constantine told them he did? that would be preposterous. that belief is the reason they're christian.
>>215548818Old Christianity was less concerned about whether he was a aman or God before the council of Nikaea
>>215548452>>215548648also>The resurrection of Christ is remarkably questionable, but billions of people still believe it, because a Roman emperor decided it would be best for his citizens. this is just inane. they don't believe it because an emperor said so, they believe it because they wish it to be true, because they themselves don't want to die.>>215548850it was immediately concerned with him defeating death. that's the founding idea.
>>215548570Okay but stop forgetting about the psychic shockwave that slammed the manufactured history of the alien squid into the minds of everyone on the planet and how that’s a comic book parallel for, say, spreading the news of “the miracles of christ” via word of mouth through plants.
>>215547259You can ignore the dark knight rises because it’s the point where “the trilogy” stops being about 9/11 and is clumsily trying to demonize occupy wall street
>>215548818Regardless of who is making the claim, the idea that there was a historical man called christ who performed acts of magic and came back from the dead is a tall order to swallow. As we are thousands of years from the supposed date of the event, there is no way of proving it ever actually happened. Christians themselves will tell you it doesn't matter whether it can be proven to have happened or not, only that the Christian believes it does. I can make a similar claim: If you believe in me, you will become wise.Should you take me seriously?>are you going to tell me christians didn't think christ rose from the dead before constantine told them he did?Yes actually. Christianity before Constantine was practiced in a variety of different cults with very different beliefs about him.
>>215546393> The idea of setting up an elaborate lie as modern mythology is totally absurdHere are just some of the elaborate lies that are (or were) part of modern mythology>America is a force for good in the world>money>god>justice>representative democracy>social mobility
>>215548930>it was immediately concerned with him defeating death. that's the founding idea.It's arguably not at all. There are certain Christian cults, arguably very foundational ones, that perhaps merely taught that Christ came to free Jews spiritually from Judaism. Not that he necessarily performed miracles or died and was resurrected, or came to bring people "eternal life" - he came to teach Jews they didn't have to be beholden to the insane rules and dogmas passed down to them by their fathers.
>>215542212I wonder what will become of Europe when that happens
>>215544623aww piggies
>>215544623How often does Jesus need to remind people he’s real?
>>215549323He doesn't personally, but his priests certainly help tell his story.
>>215549130>There are certain Christian cults, arguably very foundational ones, that perhaps merely taught that Christ came to free Jews spiritually from Judaismand this would be relevant to the non-jewish population of the roman empire how? christianity wasn't spreading among roman gentiles because of some theoretical points it made about judaism, it was spreading because it promised a happy afterlife to miserable slaves. that's the foundational idea of the branch of christianity that thrived. you are really grasping at straws here, all trivia and no thought.>>215548953but that's just an admission that the idea is absurd in real life, surely. "the plan works because of the make-the-plan-work magic rays."
>>215549422All Constantine needed to do was have people pretend to have seen miracles and now we’re stuck with various international death cults that rape children and get away with it.
>>215546385>>215547241>>215546479Rorschach is cool but hypocrite.Of course people on 4chan would relate to him.
>>215549472people believed christ would give them eternal life long before constantine was born, therefore he had no reason to do any such thing, and whatever personal issues you have with clergy are irrelevant to this discussion of watchmen.
>>215549422>and this would be relevant to the non-jewish population of the roman empire how?It wouldn't. I suppose I am suggesting Christianity might never have supposed to have been relevant to non-Jews, but it spiraled into something that became a mythology to unite the Roman Empire. "You (he says to the Jews) are free from the concept of Sin and supplication to your god. You don't have to be a slave to your god and your religion anymore." becomes "Everybody has sinned, and through me is a child of Abraham, also I'm here to save you from death LOL"
>>215548626>Blue" is only relevant to speakers of the English language. The color blue exists regardless of what word you use to describe it, and the sky will continue to be that color. The words you use to describe a phenomenon are irrelevant to the continued existence of thst phenomenon.>There is no guarantee the sun will rise tomorrow,There literally is. It is the most constant thing in this reality. Every single human being who has ever existed for hundreds of thousands of years can attest to that fact.
>>215549123Yeah and the problem is that these movies suggest those lies are good things and in fact necessary. They are not. We live in a world controlled by pathological liars but it doesn't need to be that way nor should it.
>>215549708>The color blue exists regardless of what word you use to describe itIf we don't call that color blue, is it blue?
>>215549738Yes. Your brain has been poisoned by language. Language is just sounds we use to describe reality. Reality exists independent of those monkey noises.
>>215549708>There literally is. It is the most constant thing in this reality.It could explode at any time. Or you could die, and your experience of reality could transform into something entirely different.
>>215549751>"Your brain has been poisoned by language." - he wrote with words.
>>215549757>It could explode at any time.Even soientists don't believe this.>>215549793Yeah unfortunately I am trying to communicate a fundamental idea about epistemology to you, but you ultimately have to come to this understanding yourself. That is actually the purpose of Buddhist-style meditative contemplation: you have to see the way the world works for yourself instead of getting caught up in word games. But on some level I think you know that reality continues existing without your subjective perception. Object permanence is one of the first things you learn as you develop out of infancy.
