>tried to prevent black elves, black dwarves, feminist Galadriel, gay Elrond, black Numenorean boss-bitch from existing >somehow is the bad guy Eru Ilúvatar allowed all this to exist, he's the true villain.
Bump.
>le spiked (big)guy with a macethis is the lamest design ever
>>218078352Tolkien was a known hack.
>>218078352for you
>>218077037Sorry Chud, but black dwarves is the will of Eru
>>218077037That stuff is only in the gaymerican version of lotr
TV's takes on LOTR is reddit personified. Stop posting
There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.
And it came to pass that Iluvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Iluvatar and were silent.
>>218078356Strong accusation, do you have any sources to back it up?
Then Iluvatar said to them: ‘Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.’
>>218078352It wasn't a thing until he came up with itTolkien invented big guys
>>218078631>>218078654Can't wait to see the adaptation of The Silmarillion to thr big screen as a musical.
Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Iluvatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Iluvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void. Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.
>>218078684Someone made a concept movie and put it on youtube.. it was fucking amazingly good
>>218078495>>218078517>slop doesn't matter because is slop >the same slop that is being consoomed by millions of people and by the new generations that find problematic OG LotR and will do anything to rewrite itIn the end Melkor was right, kek. Ironic, I wonder how would Tolkien react to this.
>>218078716Post link.
>>218077037let me guess, you think the demiurge is the good guy also?
>>218078352>>218078356It's supposed to be a hammer not a mace, and other than being large, dark, and having an iron crown, he has no other physical description
>>218078730Again, this take is stupid and ill informed. Read a book sometime in your life. Any book. A book with pictures. Literally anything
>>218078752Surehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8ZIkGfWX7UThe original version this guy made came out years ago but he was slapped with a whole bunch of copy right infringment bullshit which forced him to edit the movie, so this version is NOT the original but its still pretty fucking cool
>>218078700keep going
>>218078876It's all in like the first 20 pages of the Silmarillion
>>218078876But now Iluvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.
Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Iluvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged.
Then Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and ontended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery. Then again Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and profundity. And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Iluvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.
In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Iluvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Iluvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Iluvatar, the Music ceased.
>>218078758>Melkor the Anti-Demiurge is the good guy >therefore, Ilúvatar the Demiurge is the bad guy You are a dumb illiterate.
>>218078846Thanks anon, I will watch it.
>>218079172the Ainur (including Melkor) are literal archons
>>218077037>>218078730Back in my day we had to work for our (You)s
>>218079397and that makes them bad?
>>218079812Yes and no. It's not as black and white as people want to believe
>>218079837oh, thanks for clearing that up
>>218079855I'm not sure I did but np
>>218079812if you're not hylic, then yes the archons are bad
>>218080053Hylic is a meme at this point
>>218080053so gandalf is a bad guy?
You realize Melkor is the demiurge? Tolkien even calls him that
>>218080105gnostic ideas don't necessarily map cleanly onto Tolkien's work since he didn't believe the material world was inherently corrupted
LORD OF ALL NOLDOOOOOOR
>>218080173well that's good news, i'd hate to think my boy Olórin was a baddy
>>218080154Ilúvatar is without a doubt the demiurge because he guided his archons (the Valar) in crafting the material world
>>218080105He's not the bad guy and never was and 4chan believing this is proof how goddamn media illiterate this place has gotten. Ppl just want to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian because actually liking things is considered uncool. Zoomer coded behavior yet here we are, dealing with this utter tripe
The worst part is that Eru basically created Melkor on purpose to do what he did. Everything was part of Eru’s design, even Melkor being a huge dick.
>>218080215>EXISTENCE...LE BAD! I want reddit to leave
>>218080257Melkor going off the rails was not part of Illuvatar's plan. Melkor was an anomaly
>>218080215No he created the world theValar just shaped it. He’s the one true God whereas Tolkien refers to Melkor as demiurgic many times. In fact that is one of his goals to convince men and elves that he is Eru
>>218080300it was 100% part of his plan>‘Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.’
>>218080277the material world is nothing but hollow illusions in the end. if you believe existence = the material, then you're not on the right path, friend>>218080304>No he created the worldyes, that's why he is the demiurge (or craftsman). the demiurge is responsible for creating the material world
>>218077037Melkor is literally discord
>>218077037>wants to fill the world with literal green niggers and enslave you((Melkor)) only sees you as a golem
>>218080335Initially, I think it was but the more Melkor beheld the void, the more independent of Illuvatar he became. Illuvutar did decree that there was nothing he couldn't turn towards his will (this is how snow came into being,). He saw it coming, sure, and didn't step in but he was always pretty hands off when it came down to ME and trusted his stewards to do the right thing. I'm not disagreeing with you 100% tho. There's just a lot of nuance there that I believe gets overlooked
>>218080369Existence from one end of the universe to the other plus all the other dimensions that we suspect exist plus the ones we have no clue about, let me re-state it differently
>>218079580The future is now, old man.
>>218080154>>218079397>>218080215>>218080277>>218080369Ilúvatar is literally the Demiurge, the Creator, it's a neutral term. Plato thought the Demiurge, aka Zeus, was good. Gnostics that he was bad.
>>218080411If you actually read Tolkien's lore, dragons were the greatest of Melkor's creations, if Melkor had won the world would be full with dragons not orcs.
>>218080369He created the spiritual world as well he’s the unmoved prime mover and that is not the demiurge
>>218080410Manwe is Reddit
>>218081298Tulkas is chadMorgoth is chud
>>218080410>>218081298>>218081416And who is 4chan?
>actually succeeded in grantinghumans immortality >fucked over elves>actually lived in middle earth among the free people instead of just fucking around in ValinorMelkor was based.
>>218081630>>actually succeeded in granting humans immortality I don't remember that part. But for the rest, yeah he was based, specially in the #FuckElves.
Why do chuds always identify first and foremost with the loserWhy do they crave victimhood?
>>218081591
>>218081737the ring wraiths were immortal or some shit.
>>218081591Mandos, the Doombringer
>>218081903Got it, but that was Tal-Mairon (aka Sauron), not Melkor.>>218081947Can you elaborate it?>>218081876Kek'd.
>>218081903Immortally dead in subservience to terror, death and destruction personified with no true willpower of their own. Sounds peachy
Just a reminder that Eru randomly made a human male immortal solely because he came to Valinor. Melkor and his crew were 100% correct. Death isn’t a gift.
>>218081591Grima
>>2180820334chan brings doom to all, Vala, elf or mortal. When he spoke, he spoke with the authority of Illuvatar. He was Manwe's brother and just as powerful, if not more
>>218081841Because Good is dumb. And Ilúvatar is a schizo.
>>218082033>that was Tal-Mairon (aka Sauron), not Melkoroh yeah, that's right. shit. then idk who morgoth made immortal >>218082050hell yeah!
This is now a Tulkas thread. All Melkor worshipers can GET FUCKED for being faggot crybaby bitches just like their "dark lord"
>>218082051It's available is a gift. Elves could not leave ME, as their spirit was tied intrinsically to ME's fate. Even if they died, they were (usually) reincarnated and eventually even looked the exact same as their previous life. Men, however, were freed from the mortal realm and where they went after they died, only Illuvatar knows. The Valar don't even know. Mankind was the mysterious stranger to them even though Illuvatar foretold of their coming. Melkor apologists begone!
>>218082155Huan goes wherever Tulkas goes. That means he's here with us too
>>218082081>>218082083Good choices and thanks for the explanation. >>218082051The whole "Death" thing makes no sense, if you die as an elf of dwarf you respawn in Valinor, I don't get all the drama. If you die as a human, now that's where the drama starts, because you don't know where you go (Ilúvatar is an asshole).Perhaps it's impopular, but each time I re-read the books or rewatch the films, I more convinced that Tolkien's catholicism ruined an otherwise chill good world-building.
>>218082169It's absolutely* a gift. The elves literally called it man's gift and were jealous of it
>>218082208>Huanall dogs go to heaven
>>218082218Is it actually confirmed that Dwarves reincarnate? I thought that they don’t even go to the Halls of Mandos?
>>218082218I'm not Catholic but I find it endearing. He really gave a shit about humans. I don't so I find it a bit wholesome
>>218082155Isn't Melkor also a Valar? Why did he run from Tulkas?
>>218082259Yes, they go to a different Hall. >>218082267>Tolkien didn't give a damn about humansThat's not very christian.
Ackkkk!!
>>218082259They do not. They weren't in Illuvatar's plans at all and where they go, no one knows though it is known that Mandos favors them, as does Aule (who made them) and Yavanna (who cried for them). I may be misremembering some of this, my memory is not quite as good as it used to be
>>218082208Huan was Orome's
>ooh noo>the giant evil light eating void spider that i casually brought to arda is still hungry>and now she wants to eat me!?>how could this have happened??>aaahhh save me balrogs!!!
>>218082321I said he gave a shit about humans, not that he didn't. I don't give a shit about humans
>>218082155It’s kind of funny how pathetic Melkor is>gets rejected by the valar of the night >hates her for all eternity like a pathetic incel>is also bullied constantly by Tulkas who is basically the valar equivalent of a meathead jock>got defeated by a giant spider and squealed so loudly that his cries can still be heard thousands of years laterNo wonder he was such a bitter little incel.
>>218082318>Why did he run from Tulkas?because he's a BITCH
>>218082349>nooooo I don't have enough semen for this!!!!!!
>>218082318He is but Tulkas was THE fighter and barehanded wrestled Melkor into submission like it was just another Sunday to him. I can't say positively that Tulkas was the mightiest but I think he was. If Tom Bombadil had a patron (not saying he did) it would have been Tulkas
They are going to make movies about the Melkor era. There is so much spectacular battles and creatures in that time, much more than in Sauron's time.
>>218082326If Tulkas didn’t have the chains Melkor would body him. Melkor was said to be the most physically powerful out of all the valar.
>>218082409But Melkor had a big army with Balrogs, dragons, spiders, etc. He could attack Tulkas with a few Balrogs and then he finish the job.
>>218082339But Tulkas' constant companion, I thought. Orome and Huan hunted evil together but I thought Huan and Tulkas were actual companions. It's been awhile since I've read the Silmarillion
>>218082380That giant spider predates the known universe. I'm not so sure it was just a spider
>>218082481Eru made her as a joke. Likely to fuck with Melkor.
>>218082424cope harder, fag, go back to getting diddled by your dark daddy. sauron ass bitch
>>218082446>Melkor had a big armyFor you
>>218082155>>218082246Why is he depicted like Marvel's Thor?
>>218082481It was probably just a very powerful Maia. Morgoth gets defeated by that spider because he poured his power into her to make her stronger
>>218082424Melkor could never. Tulkas had to defeat him first before he could apply those chains and mighty, he may be, but might can be measured in many ways. Manwe was every bit his equal and I have little reason to doubt that Tulkas wasn't far behind, if not actually physically stronger and manwe had the strength of mountains
>>218082528That's how he was described in the book>Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, who is surnamed Astaldo, the Valiant. He came last to Arda, to aid the Valar in the first battles with Melkor. He delights in wrestling and in contests of strength; and he rides no steed, for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless. His hair and beard are golden, and his flesh ruddy; his weapons are his hands. He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend.
>>218082446Tulkas is pretty much invulnerable to everything that is not a Vala. I'm sure Illuvatar made him that way. Illuvatar might misjudge but he doesn't make mistakes. At one point in time, Illuvatar loved Melkor too
>>218082567I would love to hear his laugh. I'm so fucking depressed all the time and feel like no one loves me or likes me. Tulkas would fix that. He would tell me to stop being so fucking difficult and mopey
I like the dancing Vala because she's so useless
>>218082354Ok.>>218082349>>218082481>>218082500>>218082542Ungoliant being a fallen Maia is not canon, Tolkien proposed different origins, another one is that she was from a native species before Ilúvatar created Arda, a creaute from the Void. Aka if Hollywood choose this one, you would get Ilúvatar portrayed as an evil colonizer and Ungoliant allying with Melkor to free her stolen land. This reminds me a story, I don't remember from where, that the natives of this universe were the leviathans before Yahweh / Ra / Zeus came here to create this reality. That's why there are myths of giant serpents wanting to destroy everything, they want their realm back.
>>218082650cheer up buttercuphttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMSx95iU-yQ
>>218082848I don’t care as long as Ungoliant is portrayed as a sexy goth woman.
>>218082848That's why I said probably
>>218082848>>218082890>here's that giant spider i was telling you guys about
>>218082883If only our world, reality, society was as Kino as this fantasy worlds. No exams, taxes, shitty jobs, etc. Just going with the boys barding, chilling, smoking and flying with dragons through the universeDespite I'm atheist, I get why the gnostics were maltheists.
>>218082883I love that song. A bard in a d&d game I ran got a sword called the Bardsword that sang out this song while they were in battle for a +5 morale bonus for all allies in a 20' radius to hit. 3.x game. Good times and thank you, fren. I'm basically getting discarded as I get older and I never thought that shit was real but it is
>>218082956its okay anon, one day we will all be dead, and none of this will have mattered to anyone but us who are alive to feel it. make it happy or sad, but don't let the world dominate your will.
>>218082890>>218082952That is Shelob, Ungoliant's daughter, and according to some Tolkien's readers, her father is Melkor. Since Ungoliant was not a spider but a entity that choose the spider form (she like Melkor and Mairon could shape-shift), so her original form could be more appealing for the Valar.
>>218082997theres a little PC game called Mordhau that lets you play as a bard while your buds are running around the battlefield smashing each other with axes and, with a small mod called LuteBot, you can actually import and play any song you want, but on a lute. Bard's Song is a perfect ballad for such times.
>>218082929Cool. >>218083011Ngl, that scene gives me hope despite that white-pill moment doesn't last too much.
>>218083069Sounds fun. I wish I still played games but I just can't rn. I'm so isolated so I feel like it's time to introspect and do some much needed damage control. Thanks for the heads up
>>218083069Is it still alive? How good is it today?
>>218083167https://sacred-texts.com/eso/kyb/index.htm>>218083177idk i got it for free on epic years ago and haven't touched it in quite some time. there were always a few full servers though whenever i played so finding matches was never hard
>>218077037Hail MelkorHail our peopleHAIL VICTORY
>>218082318Evil is borne from cowardice.
>>218083256What an I going to get out of this if I read it?
they’re just fucking trees
>>218083294whatever you want
>>218083343Hm. I'm a skeptic but I'll give it a go
>>218082051>Just a reminder that Eru randomly made a human male immortal solely because he came to Valinor.No, it is *said* that he did (a common Tolkien conceit). His mythology (all made up, of course) allows that Tuor is worm food but that people sing his song a bit more...cheerfully.>But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.Tuor lived as an Elf, was adopted by Elves, and married to an Elf. Perhaps the fate of Men is actually the "greater" later, but he was granted the lesser now for his sacrifice. Plus made the trip, not to avoid death but to "be" what he "was" with his love. (Or maybe they just wanted to trade for Luthien to make things even.)
>>218083256Thanks for the info.>>218083260Kek, I forget about this character. I always find funny how in this kind of worlds where there is a "Dark Lord", they never show why normal people are so loyal to them, it seems like if the viewer see an alternative to the "good guys", perhaps this "good guys" are not so good after all.
>>218082218>If you die as a human, now that's where the drama starts, because you don't know where you go (Ilúvatar is an asshole).None of the children really "knew" their ultimate fate. Tolkien says...>Since Men die, without accident, and whether they will to do so or not, their fëar must have a different relation to Time. The Elves believed, though they had no certain information, that the fëar of Men, if disembodied, left Time (sooner or later), and never returned.>The Elves observed that all Men died (a fact confirmed by Men). They therefore deduced that this was 'natural' to Men (sc. was by the design of Eru), and supposed that the brevity of human life was due to this character of the human fëa: that it was not designed to stay long in Arda. Whereas their own fëar, being designed to remain in Arda to its end, imposed long endurance on their bodies; for they were (as a fact of experience) in far greater control of them.>Beyond the 'End of Arda' Elvish thought could not penetrate, and they were without any specific instruction. It seemed clear to them that their hröar must then end, and therefore any kind of re-incarnation would be impossible. All the Elves would then 'die' at the End of Arda. What this would mean they did not know. They said therefore that Men had a shadow behind them, but the Elves had a shadow before them.>Their dilemma was this: the thought of existence as fëar only was revolting to them, and they found it hard to believe that it was natural or designed for them, since they were essentially 'dwellers in Arda', and by nature wholly in love with Arda. The alternative: that their fëar would also cease to exist at 'the End', seemed even more intolerable. Both absolute annihilation, and cessation of conscious identity, were wholly repugnant to thought and desire.1/2
>>218083909>>2180822182/2Andreth indicates it may be more that Men forgot and twisted what they knew...>"Yet among my people, from Wise unto Wise out of the darkness, comes the voice saying that Men are not now as they were, nor as their true nature was in their beginning. And clearer still is this said by the Wise of the People of Marach, who have preserved in memory a name for Him that ye call Eru, though in my folk He was almost forgotten. So I learn from Adanel. They say plainly that Men are not by nature short-lived, but have become so thorough the malice of the Lord of the Darkness whom they do not name."But Finrod sees it differently...>"This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!>"For that Arda Healed shall not be Arda Unmarred, but a third thing and a greater, and yet the same. I have conversed with the Valar who were present at the making of the Music ere the being of the World began. And now I wonder: Did they hear the end of the Music? Was there not something in or beyond the final chords of Eru which, being overwhelmed thereby, they did not perceive?>"Or again, since Eru is for ever free, maybe he made no Music and showed no Vision beyond a certain point. Beyond that point we cannot see or know, until by our own roads we come there, Valar or Eldar or Men.>"As may a master in the telling of tales keep hidden the greatest moment until it comes in due course. It may be guessed at indeed, in some measure, by those of us who have listened with full heart and mind; but so the teller would wish. In no wise is the surprise and wonder of his art thus diminished, for thus we share, as it were, in his authorship. But not so, if all were told us in a preface before we entered in!"
