I guess the father just killed himself? Why are they so comfortable with the idea of a guy misteriously getting stabbed in his own house, no robbery or motive and without any explanation because "ackschually, you can't prove the son did it therefore he's inocent!"?
>>218631601The film shows how a trial gets derailed by what-ifs and speculation that hold no actual weight in court
Why didnt the prosecutors get some actual evidence if they wanter to convict the child so bad lol
>>218631638Abd that's why the anglo justice system doesn't fucking work.
>>218631601Because the film was jewish propaganda directed by the jew sidney lumet
Would they acquit him?
>>218631601>Beyond resonabel doubt Basically the angry man was doing what the defense attorney should have done from the start and show that there isn't enough evidence to fully prove that the son was the killer.
>>218631601>>218631756How about you retards learn to spell before shooting your mouth off about a criminal trial
>>218631717Jury trial can exist in common law system as well, and there is nothing wrong with it either.
>ackschually, you can't prove the son did it therefore he's inocentThat is in fact the underlying principle of "innocent until proven guilty".Why are Americans such nigger retards? All of them are just the fucking dumbest, blackest monkey gorillas you've ever encountered, a race of fucking imbeciles.
>>218631779Sure, point out the errors I made in my post so that I can avoid making the same mistake in the future.
>>218631717Lousiana in fact does not have Napoleonic code.
Not guilty =\= innocent.It only means that there’s still reasonable doubt.Innocent until proven guilty is the American justice system.
>>218631849>>218631816The American justice system also make a note that there is an important difference between innocent and not-guilty.
>>218631756The defense attorney was throwing the case because he knew that the kid was a scumbag murderer who would kill again. Henry Fonda let a killer go free to stroke his ego.
>>218631849>>218631872So he got away scott free? Awesome message to show to kids! If you're lucky enough you might also be found "not-guilty" after murdering your family!
the movie is about how even a bad defense is necessary to make a solid prosecution. if the defense had questioned the old bitch about her glasses/vision, and she responded with "i'm farsighted and only need them to read," and the defense tested it, and found it to be true, her testimony wouldn't have reasonable doubts. If the defense had questioned limpy, and limpy had said "oh i added doorways to me apartment on account of me limp, originally it was quite a long way to the privy," his testimony wouldn't have any reasonable doubts.if the defense had questioned the knife store owner or whatever the fuck he was, and the knife store owner said "yes they look the same but they have different model numbers and this model number is the one i sold to the defendant," his testimony would not have any reasonable doubts.even if the defense hadn't botched the case like this, all of this would've come up on cross-examination.and finally, you don't need a better theory to reject a bad one.
>>218631929Not exactly Scott free because now he has a criminal record that shows he was declared not guilty, which will make it harder for him to get a job or get good credit.
Same poltard threads over and over.Yes Ivan we know you're raiding. No Ivan this isn't white guilt. No Ivan reasonable doubt isn't a jewish trick. No Ivan I dont want an authoritarian justice system where people are automatically guilty. Yes Ivan we know this is part of an influence campaign trying to get people into supporting fascism.
>>218632018So you're saying all the J6 guys pardoned by the president have had a hard time finding jobs?
>>218632032Is "Ivan" in the room with you now?
>>218632018I don’t know if that’s how it works
>>218631601The more this guy talked the more I thought the kid was guilty. Fuck this guy and all of the bad people we let go
>>218632055They might, before the pardon definitely but after? It could go either way, Trump supporters would probably hire them on the spot
>>218632070Are you in the thread you fucking idiot?
>>218632032Christ
>>218631756The job of the jury isn't to go to bat for either side of the case, or to essentially have their own mini trial where they weigh new evidence that no one else has been privy toHenry Fonda takes the idea of reasonable doubt to unreasonable levels when he starts making wild accusations like "Well old people can walk kind of slowly, so clearly the old man was lying about having seen the murder so he could feel important". I'd love to know if the movie was made with that metatextual layer in mind, because it feels impossible to watch it now and accept the surface level story without thinking about how specious some of the arguments are
>>218632102>NOOO COMRADE DO NOT RECOGNIZE REPEATED INFLUENCE THREADS NOOO
All he is SAYING is that there is a CHANCE
>>218632117>The job of the jury isn't to go to bat for either side of the case, or to essentially have their own mini trialIt literally is, you dumb russian bitch.
>>218632123Yes Eye Van I know you’re raiding
>>218632097>name isn't Ivan>not even RussianI think you might need to see a mental health professional.
>>218631872You don’t know the he murdered anyone Anon.
>>218632117>"Well old people can walk kind of slowlyThe old man did walk with a limp. Not "could have possibly maybe walked a tiny bit slow".
>>218632117the reason jury deliberations are off the record is because literally anything goes with them. all the rules of trial are about how information is presented to the jury.the entire point is moot because the vast majority of cases will never see a jury due to plea bargaining, which means downgrading crimes to much lesser offenses for shorter sentences.
>>218632117It… is the job of the jury. That’s what what deliberation is
>>218631816Only thanks to 4chan anonymity can a retarded third worlder see other retarded third worlders speaking about American politics with retarded secondhand knowledge and then assume it’s Americans who are the dumb ones asserting factually incorrect drivel. I love you adorably underdeveloped thirdies.
>>218632132>there's a chance a random guy unrelated to the victim decided to break into a house (actually an apartment where he would have to climb stairs to get there), stab a man, leave no trace behind except for a knife, decide to not steal anything then leave in the span of 2 minutes>casually right after the son had an argument with his father and threatened to kill him>the same son who owns the exact type of knife used to murder his dad>and was allegedly watching a movie at the time of the incident, a film which tittle he couldn't remember
>>218632117>he starts making wild accusations like "Well old people can walk kind of slowly, so clearly the old man was lying about having seen the murder so he could feel important"Which is then reinforced SVERAL TIMES by the older juror who flat out admits that sometimes you embellish the events of what you saw because you feel left out of a society that ignores you. The witnesses didn’t have any objective proof of seeing a murder. They were nosy busybodies who were probably racist and just wanted to feel important.
>>218632117>trial where they weigh new evidence that no one else has been privy toYes that is indeed an issue but I can't recall if the jury with glasses points out to Fonda that he can't go out of his way to find new evidence like he did.
>>218632396we just CAN'T be SURE
The doubt was unreasonable, he did it.
>>218632396>>218632458If you are so sure then explain how the father was stabbed when the height difference would have made it hard for the son to stab him.
I think we should just say he's innocent just incase and then we can all go to the game
>>218632512I guess no woman ever stabbed her boyfriend/husband since most women are on average shorter than most men and thus any case where a woman is accused of stabbing a man should be dismissed.
>>218632512He jumped
>>218632566They use kitchen knives, switchblades aren't designed for downward stabs. Alternative they stab from the back while the father was stabbed in the chest
Presumably the investigation would continue now that the boy isnt the only suspect
>>218631638People doubt that you're shown this movie in law school. The only times I've ever sen this movie was in second grade and during law school. Like you said, the whole point of showing it to people who are studying to be lawyers is to show how easily it is to derail a trial with a bunch of nonsense.
>>218632566God, this picture is so fucking gay lmao
>>218632563This
>>218631601>ackschually, you can't prove the son did it therefore he's inocentI know right, imagine if the legal system was based on this concept
>oy vey goyim, yes, you MUST ACQUIT the obviously guilty murderer, just like we did with Barabbas in the 1st century and Leo Frank in 1915!
>>218632626But nothing was derailed, there was no nonsense at play. One jury wanted a quick "guilty" so that he could go watch a ballgame while another had discriminatory views on people from the slums.
>>218632146You are in dire need of medication, or preferably suicide
>>218632700>Leo FrankHe was sentence to death and then life, then a Lynch mob did a very illegal thing of breaking into a prison to kidnap and kill him. Why are you supporting one side who violates the law but not the other?
>>218632802>tfw you've summoned the ADLlolThe murderer/rapist got what was coming to him.
>>218632711>while another had discriminatory views on people from the slumsAnd was he wrong? Either the kid did it or some crackhead from the same ghetto broke into their house and killed a man
>>218631601>inocentI just wanta let you know. "the word" >inocentsis speled with two zs as in (inoccence) if u get what I mean
>>218632893White men is going to get whats coming to them >>218632912Yes Because you have to leave such views behind while serving on jury
>>218631816>"innocent until proven guilty"why cum ya have to be the either to become the other? whats the use of thinkage in absolutes when the reality is less opaque? who ever even thought up of such noncense as "provided guiltage" and "inocent" which are many words whom others (not me) would have sayage " I don't get what they means"
>>218632700>>218632802>>218632893 >>218632032Yes Ivan we know you're raiding. No Ivan this isn't da joos.
>>218632912Achtually it was a 6'4 Aryan rocket scientist in a suit and tie who has a 6 figure job, a wife and two and a half children, and is a known family man and churchgoer. It's subversive.
>>218631849>Not guilty =\= innocent.isn't that what innocent means? aka "nut guilty!"what else those "nut guilty" meant if not pure innocence?
>>218632032>>218632996Yes Ivan we know you're raiding. No Ivan this isn't white guilt. You've made this thread too many times.
>>218633049To be fair, Leo Frank and Barabbas were literally murderous jews who were acquitted.
>>218633069>>218632032No Ivan it doesn't. No Ivan /tv isn't for discussion about politics. No Ivan this doesn't make me want an authoritarian justice system. You've made this thread too many times.
>>218633094Yes Ivan we know this thread is part of the pol influence campaign the russian government runs on 4chan.
>>218633122Politics? We're talking about a classic movie.
>>218633069In layman terms it's the same, in the legal world it means >You had nothing to do with this crime >There wasn't enough evidence to prove you had something to do with the crimeTo bring it back to the movie, the kid is declared not guilty because there wasn't enough proof to show he actually did it. But if it was revealed that he wasn't even in the city when the murder took place then he would have been innocent
>>218633094whats your beef with Frank???
It's not a jury's duty to solve the fucking crime, retard.It's the jury's duty to determine if there's reasonable doubt of the defendant's guilt.
>>218633160No Ivan you're using a movie as a cover to try to influence people into supporting fascism. No Ivan asking about the difference between 'not guilty' and 'innocent' isn't discussing the movie.
>>218633122I only made this thread 2 times though:https://archive.4plebs.org/tv/thread/217882502/#217882502My first thread. Made it after I watched the movie and decided to recycle it today because I'm still mad at the movie. Maybe I was the 12 angry men after all.
>>218633284Not a good lie ivan.
>>218633273Well, I mean, discussing the difference between "not guilty" and "innocent" in a thread about 12 Angry Men seems relevant to the movie.
>>218633190>There wasn't enough evidence to prove you had something to do with the crimeeeeh, if nut guilty means this. why ain't it actualy changed to a better word for it such as>unevidentually guilty>unbeproof of guilt>nonguilty due inpotentence>not disprovage of unguiltor whatever words u make up, cuz wud u nut want language to be samed so laymans can fuckage undastand wat law actuallage says??
>>218632123sorry mr. Schekelblack
>>218631816Why do we have the world's most respected universities and lead technological, medical, and scientific innovation if we're so ignorant? Why are we still the only nation that's put men on the moon, half a century ago, after we invented the airplane only a few decades before? You sound jealous of our wealth and privilege. I bet my garage is bigger than your entire flat.
>>218633378the real question is why are you only just now learning that legal definitions and layman definitions are different? Learning the distinctions is half a legal education.
>>218633355It's not. You've made this thread too many times Ivan. This doesn't make me want fascism. You're about to argue that it's too complex and we need fascism to simplify things because you're a pol influence shill paid to make these same threads over and over.
did you lads now the juice made a 110% gay homoparody movie of 12 angrier men to riducilate the murrican system and made fun of murricans?
>>218631601Trial by a jury confuses me as a concept. You don't pick a bunch of assholes at random to diagnose if you have cancer or to make political decissions. Why should they decide how law works?
>>218633420>the real question is why are you only just now learning that legal definitions and layman definitions are differentno. the real q is why they're different.. whats the need. there's actually no need except for......
>>218631895>Basically the angry man was doing what the defense attorney should have done from the start and show that there isn't enough evidence to fully prove that the son was the killer.What if Henry Fonda was the murderer. He did own an exact match for the murder weapon.
>>218633423>>218633444Lol right on time. You russian faggots are insanely easy to predict because you make these same threads over and over to try and brainwash people.
>>218633410>respectedHA.... ur schules are filled with wokeness and other imported colored isssues.. maybe u had cool schules 50 years ago but the best ones today exists in china and india.. sry the states is less relevant now and will be a 3rdy in 10-20 years when the dollars goes byebye
>>218633476>whats the neednot having conversations like this one in a court of law, for starters.fixed objective meanings for words is necessary for a functional legal system. Hell, "innocent" isn't even a concept in law. Its guilty and not guilty. "innocent until proven guilty" is a colloquial description of how the US legal system works.
>>218633444it was a good concept. the execution failed because the founders werent reasonable enough
>>218633244>Luke, have I ever told you about Leo Frank?>Leo Max Frank was an Jewish rapist and murderer convicted of the murder of 13-year-old Mary Phagan, an employee in a factory in Atlanta, Georgia, where he was the superintendent. Frank's trial, conviction, and unsuccessful appeals attracted national attention. On August 16, 1915, he was kidnapped from prison by a group of armed men, and lynched at Marietta, Mary Phagan's hometown, the next morning. Frank's primary defense was a "virulently racist" characterization of Jim Conley, a black porter at the factory. His defense was so scummy and full of holes that the KKK actually sided with the wrongfully accused black man. This incident caused so much asshurt to the Jews that they created the Anti-Defamation League, which has been annoyingly defending Jewish criminals ever since.>And he was a good friend.
Russia is trying to destroy America by making threads about 12 Angry Men on 4chan’s television and film board
>>218633589the joke is that is actually part of the cyberwarfare manual snowden leaked
>>218631835>misteriously>resonabelsee yourself out
>>218633572Yes Ivan we know this is another pol thread.
>>218633620I doubt that very much
>>218633566>fixed objective meanings for words is necessary for a functional legal systemI don't agree with that at all. There's really no reason for have fixed meanings. If anything time has proven over and over that it's almost useless. I assume you know this as well but are arguing for trollish reasons because otherwise I don't understand the logic in your reasoning at all.
>>218631601How many times are you going to make this thread? Have you considered offing yourself?
>>218633476Because it's important for law to sound as alien to laymen as possible so that you need a lawyer to translate this lawbabble that's incoherent for the common man
>>218633752Its hilarious how literally only ESLs will claim "language evolves."
>>218633768I only made this thread 2 times nigger. Jesus Christ you people are unsuffereable, you think this board is only populated by the same 5 guys? I watched this movie for the first time THIS YEAR 2026, it's not my fault other people wanted to discuss the same movie on the TELEVISION & FILM board.
>>218633273You're spamming the thread is a better argument for fascism than anything else being post d here
>>218632647I think the old man did it with contraptions made of ice and string
>>218633907Stop lying nigger and kill yourself.
>>218633538>china and indiaSaar plz
>>218631638Jurors are flawed people acting in bad faith, so a human life only goes to the chair if all thought experiments can be deboonked
>>218634011what makes you go around and post stuff like that? are your life so bad? if so you should consider to stay away from the internet for a while because you're turning into a person no one would ever want to be with.
>>218634269>what makes you go around and post stuff like that?Braindead morons (You) spamming the same garbage over and over again
>>218631601>Chuds actually think hes wrong here
>>218634306You're describing yourself
Why must we fight so about this great, classic movie? Anyway, the kid totally murdered his father.
>>218631601It’s not their job to figure out who did it or what happened. That’s the police’s and prosecution’s job. When they think they know who did it or what happened, they gather evidence and present it in court to the jury. Now, the jury’s job is to determine whether that evidence is enough to convict. In this case, the evidence was circumstantial at best, and most of the witnesses were unreliable, so it wasn’t enough for a guilty verdict.
Kid couldn't name one movie he watchedWhat is he, a /tv/ poster?
>>218634766movies now:>massive multiplex>buy ticket in advance (sometimes days)>sit down before movie starts in designated seat in designated auditorium >leave when movie finishesmovies in 1954:>one screen>buy ticket>walk in, movie in progress or running a newsreel>stay as long as you like, either movie loops or another movie starts with newsreels every 45 minutes
>>218634766what was the latest movie you watched?
>>218634766it's not only that. he had no ticket. and no one at the cinema saw him.but sure, that's 100% reasonable. it's not like he lied about everything else. that is what I don't get with the system. If your truthful you'll get punished but if you lie then you're innocent. is that a world you want?
>>218635294>is that a world you want?yes ivan that is precisely the world we want
>>218635294this is what "theater tickets" looked like in 1954. they get torn in half at the door. they are trash as soon as you leave the theater.
>>218635294completely circumstantialwhat's the actual evidence in this movie again? It could be an interesting thread, law threads are interesting, but only because they're detailed. If the thread is just saying he did it over and over, I'm inclined to agree with ivan poster that it's some shill.
>>218634970Big Fish, saw it a couple days ago.
>>218634970bugonia :))
>>218635358>they are trash as soon as you leave the theater.so? what's wrong with keeping it for a day or two so that you can remember what you've seen in case you go to the teater the next day to watch a movie?
>>218631962lol ok, so the best way to win a criminal defense case is to just... not have one and let the jury speculate reasonable doubt out the ass because the prosecution can't do EVERYTHING?
>>218635585... do you see any movie/show names on any of those >>218635358 tickets?
>>218635585>>218635435so lets see, we have the eyewitness across the tracks, the ear witness from below, the knife, and the lack of alibi. I don't remember if he was known to own a similar knife or when the witness heard him threaten his father, or what was heard during the killing. Fonda deals with the witnesses then finishes with the knife, his knife argument is a lot weaker if the kid definitely had a similar knife. The witnesses were always a weak part of the argument as depicted, but if the witness heard a normal fight between kid and father escalate to murder I think it would be a conviction.
>>218635721or that even a completely one sided trial isn't a guaranteed conviction, thanks to the jury system.
>>218635796>his knife argument is a lot weakerthe prosecution asserted the knife was unique. It provably wasn't.
>>218635721there's plenty of courtroom dramas where the lawyer is the good guy, weird hill to die on.
>>218635894name one that isn't a time to kill
>>218635864I think IRL they would've jumped straight to the fact that it's his knife and he can't produce the other one he supposedly had. I don't remember how they knew he had such a knife.
>>218635917to kill a mocking bird? the original cape fear? shit, did gregory peck not play a lawyer, ever?
>>218635917to kill a mockingbird
>>218635435>completely circumstantialwhat? why? why is it circumstantial? what does it even mean that it's completely? it's basic logical reasoning. He said one thing, so we check it out. Ok, he doesn't remember the movie or anything in it or what it was about. That can happen. Ok he has no ticket. That can also happen. No one even remember seeing him. You're telling me 10 people did not spot this guy during the hour he was there? Not even the guys next to him or the cashier who "sold" him the ticket, the guy who opened the door, and so on. That is not reasonable. That is suitable. That is suitable for the defendant which makes us believe he's lying.
>>218636014>No one even remember seeing himthey'd be watching the movie, not staring at the door keeping track of who came and went.
>>218635789he could write them down. people with a bad memory usually writes down stuff.. or wait. he can't write either right?
>>218635955>>218635998to kill a mockingbird isn't a courtroom drama it's a small southern town movie about a girl and her dad
>>218636066>i used letterboxd why didn't the kid
>>218636014Not remembering him is not remembering him. They should've testified that he absolutely wasn't there if that's what they meant.
>>218635955>>218635998>to kill a mockingbirdthe lawyer isn't a good guy in it.. he knows his neighbour commited murder and does not act according to the lwa. that's how the movie ends.
>>218636169He's portrayed as the good guy and he is a lawyer. I never said he was a good lawyer.
>>218636169>not submitting to mob justice is... le bad
>>218636089well, from what I've heard people mainly use ltrboxd to know what movies they'd watch.also, one other reason. the kid is, what?, 13-14 years old?? the guys in the jury is 50-60 and even 80 years old. memory fade with time. none of them acknowledged that as a fact, even when they asked the 80 year old what movie he'd watch a month ago
>>218636264anon, the vast differences between how (you) watch movies and how people in 1954 watched movies has been explained in this thread. all that remains now is your autism.
Jury system is low key kind of retarded. Whats stopping a persuasive white guy from just flipping a jury room for the lulz?
>>218636191>He's portrayed as the good guy and he is a lawyer. I never said he was a good lawyer.hahahaha, you fucking lawyertalking now... of fucking course you did.. read it yourself>there's plenty of courtroom dramas where the lawyer is the good guy>the lawyer is the good guyoh wait. hmm.. no.."puttrayed"...ctrl+f...weird.. I don't see the word portrayed in there. maybe if you could edit your post... but you're on the wrong site dude... go back to weddit, that's where you'll find an edit-button
>>218636310jury selection, mostly. but hey, you're a third worlder with fractional understanding of the US legal system.
>>218636262did not say that. actually, it depends.. sometimes its good. sometimes its bad. I'd recommend you to rewatch the movie to see "which side" you're on...
>>218636308wow, going personal now when you're out of arguments? very brave, what's you're next step in you're ivanplan?
>>218636427>argumentsfacts aren't arguments, no matter how much you ree at them.
The fact Americans even have jury trials is hilarious. If it’s a nigger, every nigger on the jury will defend them and they will dox you if you don’t get on board
>>218636455you're brown
>>218636447take your circumciseds facts and shove them in your ass
>>218636455At least UK is finally doing away with jury trials, even if the cuckservatives want to keep them
>>218631601Don't try to rationalize it. It's just liberal boomer propaganda.
>ctrlf f>Ivan 23 timesKek this kike really is obsessed
>>218631717>Chilean lawFuck yeah we're the best country in all of Chile
What happens if you just go "nah I'm racist and we're gonna sit here until you're ready to convict the nigger".The entire premise seems ludicrous. Do Americans really?
>>218639824He's right. It's a shill thread. Just because he's wrong about Russia doesn't invalidate the rest.
>>218640345That DID happen in the movie. The rest of the guys began to heckle the guy and eventually he caved because it was 11 vs 1. Don't underestimate the power of a mob.
>>218640600what's being shilled, just curious, I'm half mexican so I love the americana systeme
>>218641598opposition to the "jewry of queers" system
>>218639824Why do you call me a kike?
>>218641598I dunno, maybe just engagement farm. Not sure what importance 12 Angry Men has. I say shill because of the repeated thread and circular argument every thread.
>>218641764>"jewry of queers" systemin english doc
Anyone who has ever had jury duty knows that every jury is like 80% hysterical menopausal women who get off on the thought of putting someone away and "being a good citizen" directed by a powertripping pissy judge. People automatically assume guilt and are incapable of being unbiased especially when you have a shitty public defender who does the absolute bare minimum to help you.
>>218642455Sounds like a fucking retarded justice system desu.
>>218642455I've been in four jurys and it wasn't all like that.
>>218631746I imagine ejaculating on her face like 3 times a week
>>218642808I've had jury duty 3 times and each time there was some woman literally sobbing over just hearing that someone maybe committed a crime and still somehow being allowed on the jury.
>>218632396>a film which tittle he couldn't rememberdo you have a photographic memory?
they should do a sequel about the mistrial.
>>218639417>at least the UK is becoming even more dystopian1984 was not a fucking instruction manual holy shit
>>218640345jurys can be deadlocked
>>218642586public defenders being overworked, underpaid, and heavily incentivized to clear cases as quickly as possible even if it means basically guaranteeing repeat offenses (which just increases their workload) is a pretty messed up system.
