I AM the Senate.
>>218672607Not.Yet.
>>218672607A rare actually accurate example of this sentiment, yesGod I'm so crushed that Rome was cancelled. This show got 2 seasons whereas GOT got 8. Even fucking trash like Westworld got more. I legit seethe.That scene where he absolutely dominates over the Egyptian pharoah is kino, showing jsut how feared and respected Roman generals were in this era, they scared even kings.
>>218672678funny how hbo used rome total war as a historical reference when designing the Egyptians in the show.
>>218672607How come there weren't any blue Romans in the show? Seems like a historical oversight if you ask me
>>218672920Didn’t pompeys men wear blue in the show?
I have brought peace, freedom, justice and security to my new Empire!
>>218673128they did not
>>218673138Except unlike Anakin he didn't get humiliated by being mutiliated and disfigured by his enemy, and was a healthy, fit chad for the rest of his life.
And what of good Solonius?
>>218673138The episode where he had sex with his sister was so unnecessary
>>218673258>healthy, fit chad for the rest of his lifeas I recall he only had 1 child, a daughter, who was a whore and he exiled to an island, he went crazy with grief when he lost some eagles and quit eating or shaving for a prolonged period and his wife poisoned himeverything that went wrong after this point can be blamed squarely on augustus not producing a male heir of his own
>>218673343Tiberius was a fine successorThe Empire didn't have direct heriditary succession at this point anyway, that didn't start for another 150 years with Aurelius.Augustus had his problems like every emperor but his reign was one of the high points of Roman glory and he was so respected that he basically created the concept of empire in Western civiisation.
>>218673432Tiberius only looks "fine" in retrospect because he made Caligula his successor and that fucker was insane.
>>218672607NYYYEEEEHHH
>>218672678Those Egyptians were vassals of Rome at that point. They were trying to make their master happy. And Cleopatra was far more deserving of power than that little shit and his eunuchs.
>>218673492What standard are you measuring Roman emperors against if you shit talk both Augustus and Tiberius, huh?I get so fucking sick of modern assholes just criticising every historical figure for the sake of hearing their own fucking voice and feeling superior.
>>218673432>Tiberius was a fine successorisn't he the guy who used to swim naked with little boys that he called his 'minnows' and would jerk off whenever his guards threw them to their deaths from a cliff at his villa? and isnt he also the dude who molested caligula at those same 'minnow' parties? yeah. he seems like a fine successor
>>218673577just a lil fun
>>218673533This. They basically had been paying bribes to Roman generals and consuls to keep the legions away from Egypt, because they knew they were a ripe target and had no means to defend themselves against the late Republic.
>>218672607>HE WAS A CHUDSUL OF ROME
>>218673533>Egyptians were vassals of Rome at that pointwrong
>>218673577Literally just propaganda written by senators seething that the Caesars took away their power
>>218673807ok sure thing lol>why you no like emporor??>those are lies reeee!!!
>>218673807Propaganda doesn't mean untrue
tfw mommy is very angry with you
>>218674300she was low key jealous
>>218674300Words cannot adequetely describe the immense sex appeal that Atia had in that show, god I'd wanna fuck her even if she was my mother
>>218673258Hmm I k is its Star Wars slop but I would like a Star Wars alternative universe where Anakin beats Obi Wan and doesn’t lose his limbs.>There is no dark side or light side; Only my side
>>218673807>Tiberius Claudius Nero has secluded himself in the pervert's Villa Jovis, copulating with the children of Rome! He fucks dogs and reptiles. He swims naked with little boys, like a prostitute.
>>218674300>can act>can be funny>hot>does full frontalPolly's the fucking best
>>218674369here you go budhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EtCGR2M_oU
>>218672607L'État, c'est MOI.
>>218673277
>>218673577The more things change the more things stay the same> Trump watched as girl’s newborn was murdered & dumped in lake, Epstein document says
>>218673577let me guess, you also believe Hitler was gay, had one ball, and a scat fetish?
>>218674519It just dawned on me with that first bit black screen how iconic the lightsaber sound is, that kinda stuff is the real genius of Lucas and ILM
>>218675166>1 He acquired a reputation for still grosser depravities that one can hardly bear to tell or be told, let alone believe. For example, he trained little boys (whom he termed tiddlers) to crawl between his thighs when he went swimming and tease him with their licks and nibbles; and unweaned babies he would put to his organ as though to the breast, being by both nature and age rather fond of this form of satisfaction.https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Tiberius*.html
>>218675166>it's not true because... I JUST STRONGLY FEEL IT CAN'T BE TRUE OK?!
>>218673138>If you kill your enemies, you win
>>218675169i think the original sound for lightsabers came from smacking power lines with a wrench. a shame disney killed lightsabers and everything else cool about star wars
>>218675152i thought that too lol2,000 years later, after the dark ages, and we're right back where we fucking started. we're gonna keep doing this same gay cycle on this same gay earth forever unless something changes in the way reality and life fundamentally operate within the universe's faggot fucking laws of physics
>>218672678As much I love Rome, they completely shat the bed with the Egypt production design and costumes>Alexandria is a desert because IT'S EGYPT GETTIT?>there's sand INSIDE the palace because IT'S EGYPT GETTIT?>most of the locals are black because IT'S EGYPT WHICH IS IN AFRICA GETTIT?
>>218674363trvke
>>218673526
>>218675438The historical advisor gave an interview where he basically said>I'm only a Roman historian>I don't know anything about Egypt>so we just copied Elizabeth Taylor's Cleopatrawhich I thought was insane, how much can it cost to hire an Egyptologist for a week? I bet those academics would do it for free.
>>218675231>peasants back then accused elites of doing pedo shit on an island>peasants today accuse elites of doing pedo shit on an islandTime is a flat circle
left or right?
>>218675537just a coincidence i assure you
>>218673253>hyped up battle lasts a few secondsI legit thought I was getting trolledwhat a huge disappointment that was
>>218673492Caligula was a based chad and you are a drone who fell for Senatorial propaganda
>>218675702Hard to keep up with what "based" and "chad" mean these days
>>218673343>augustus not producing a male heir of his ownYou don't understand that the Roman Empire larped as a republic for the remainder of its days. They were never going to openly install a hereditary monarchy. I wonder just how bad Tarquin was that it made Rome hate the idea of royalty forever.
>>218675702>To leave no kind of plunder untried, he opened a brothel in his palace, setting apart a number of rooms and furnishing them to suit the grandeur of the place, where matrons and freeborn youths should stand exposed. Then he sent his pages71 about the fora and basilicas, to invite young men and old to enjoy themselves, lending money on interest to those who came and having clerks openly take down their names, as contributors to Caesar's revenues. 2 He did not even disdain to make money from play, and to p471 increase his gains by falsehood and even by perjury. Having on one occasion given up his place to the player next to him and gone into the courtyard, he spied two wealthy Roman knights passing by; he ordered them to be seized at once and their property confiscated and came back exultant, boasting that he had never played in better luck. Dude, pimping out little boys and stealing money from your soldiers is hecking based AND caesarmaxxing. No wonder his subjects loved him! those fucking senators were just jealous as fuck.. faggot fucking senators need to get their wives raped.
>>218675268No, all of history is fake because human beings are physically incapable of playing the long game of telephone.
>>218675231And what was the Roman version of this alleged "tiddler"?
>>218676298Best character
>>218675702Nero and Domitian were the decent emperors who were unfairly slandered by seething senators, Caligula really was just nuts
>>218676357>Nero>slandereddidn't he murder his own mother then go crazy because she was haunting him?he seems pretty based
>>218673277wrong show, idiot
>>218675231Jewish slander
>>218676012Jewish slander
>>218676652>>218676738>it's DA JOOZYou're jewish
>>218674300
>>218676652>>218676738>Suetonius>His place of birth is disputed, but most scholars place it in Hippo Regius (the modern Annaba), at the time a small north African town in Numidia, in modern-day Algeria.[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suetonius#Life
>>218676797
>>218672786Or maybe that's just how they looked
>>218676856fucking nigger
This scene (and the loss of my mother when I was a child) jump startedy Mommy fetish
>>218676899can confirmthey also had helicopters
>>218676971sorry for your loss :(
>>218677006I want a movie with Roman attack choppers
>>218673138This guy ruined the show. They should have stuck with the original actor
>>218677130>MARS!>EXULTE!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la5psCPIaPg
>>218677269He's not that bad. The were already hyper crunching the real history time skips using the kid actor. Even though the kid was great, he would look out of place leading armies and becoming consul etc.The adult guy is a downgrade, but i think he gets overly blamed because the og was so great and the writing in season 2 isn't quite as good either due to the show being cancelled
>>218677402There was something hauntingly psychopathic about him, not sure if that was intentional or not, though.
>>218674762
>>218676652>>218676738it certainly sounds like a spiteful pervert with an overactive imagination just making outlandish shit up
Has anyone made a version of this meme with Vorenus?
Everyone's always like "Caesar this Caesar that"What about Sulla and Marius
>>218673533>Cleopatra was far more deservingI piss on her. I shit on her.
>>218677824lol what if caligula and nero weren't even real?what if they were just made up people that never even existed haha
>>218677894I wouldn't mind a First Man of Rome adaption
>>218678150First Man in Rome that is, forgot the actual title
>>218677857
>>218676298holy kinohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7cQk-QWb5Ynot the scene in your .gif but I'll post it anyways
>>218678320Based anon, thanks
>>218677857>>218678320seems a bit odd, the text smack bang across their nose, no outlined text for legibility, no nothing
>>218678320You didn't even need to change it to "Pullo" dummy
>>218678441lol fuckhe never called him by his first name though
>>218678548Yeah but then the meme would be funny
>>218676971she was even prettier in Caprica, it's a shame that show was terrible
>>218678593whatever
>>218672678>God I'm so crushed that Rome was cancelled.The average HBO viewer is so culture shocked watching that show it'd never last. It's one thing to put something like Game of Thrones in front of them where the progressive white woman is abolishing slavery by force. It's another to show them a facsimile of ancient cultures where slavery was perfectly accepted and nobody really gave a shit what you did with your human property.
>>218678733>wet feet>instantly step on sandwho fucking designed this bathhouse
>>218678799tits, lots and lots of tits were why people tuned into both rome and GoT.
>>218678837FUCKING HATE SAND AAAAHH
>>218678868How can that be true when youtube clips of sinister dialog exchanges have 10x the views of aznudes pages?source? I made it up
>>218678909>meesh, i just shit my panties
Who is the Jar Jar of Rome?>Is there even one
>>218678868sure, but then that also includes Mark Antony raping some random girl on the side of the road while his maniple waits for him to finish
>>218678799no one cares when it's white people portrayed as slaves
This guy had a hard life.
>>218679000Cicero
>>218679521>YOUSA MUST VETO DE BOMBAD MOTION
>>218679453getting fucked by some zesty patrician servant is nothing compared to what gnaeus would have done to him, in terms of bussy merchants of the time he had it easy
>>218673138The only good part of season 2.
>>218672607You are the worst kind of Senate, Caesar.
Did he rape Octavian? Is this why older Octavian derives sexual pleasure from being struck?
>>218672607You sure?
How come after years of terrible emperors and deadly rebellions, no one ever thought that things would be better if Rome went back to being a Republic
>>218677894What about Catilina?Now THAT was a senator
>>218681818How come you ask stupid questions to bump threads on a circassian tap dancing network
>>218681478How would were the boys that Greek and Romans fucked? Like prebuscent? Teens? Barely legal twinks?
>>218681818There was a reason it stopped being a republic in the first place
>>218681818>How come after years of terrible emperors and deadly rebellions, no one ever thought that things would be better if Rome went back to being a RepublicBecause the Senate were constantly stabbing eachother in the back, murdering eachother, exiling good men, and stealing from the state.
>>218676971>This scene:) B========D>and the loss of my mother when I was a child:( B=D
>>218681618>the senators go to stab Caesar>Caesar unleashes force lightning and fries them all>Caesar appears before the plebs saying the attack has left him scarred and disfigured
>>218675152Literally just propaganda written by deep state seething that the Trump took away their power
>>218681618
>YFW You experience a rare species of victory.
>>218679166He’s not under the standard
>>218681818Why didn't they just write a new constitution to form a new government, using the US Constitution as a model?
>>218673577I came here to post this but you beat me to it.
>>218673577>jews writing lies about european historyI totally believe this
>>218675596Left if she didn't have nasty hair
>>218685863You don't believe Rome existed?
>>218686827There's no real evidence of it
>>218681818They probably did but political systems don’t go backwards. They crumble or rise.
>>218672607>GaiUPF!
>>218672607Is this show actually worth a watch?Like, I know people hype it, but knowing that it ends up abruptly just puts me off. Same with other HBO shows like Deadwood and Carnivale that were canceled after a season or two, people seem to love em and I'm sure that I will too cos I love classic HBO shit, but ill just get angry that it end up prematurely
>>218690542It's a mix of good and bad. Personally I skipped virtually every scene where a woman speaks.
>>218690542Just learn to fool yourself that it was your choice and do what I did; I watched season 1 and tremendously enjoyed it and then put off watching season 2 because I knew it was rushed and squeezed several seasons worth of story into one and the budget was lower etc until I finally forgot about it and just moved on, I was never actually disappointed or let down and didn't need to get upset about anything
>>218681818Being a Republic doesn't really work when you're a vast empire dominating different ethnic groups who would rather be independent. Lots of Italian city-states tried to become local republics, after the empire fell, with varying degrees of success. Usually it'd become a merchant-republic, like Florence, where only the top 5% of wealthy men were enfranchised at all. But even this level of power sharing only really worked cause there was so much prosperity from trade that no single family could permanently dominate the city. In most other, poorer places, you'd have standard feudalism, with a single family in power.
>>218676899by that time they looked and dressed no different from the romans
>>218685127>Is this PC Bob Walker from Hot Fuzz?>check imdbHuh, it is.
>>218681818monarchy is the answer, always.
>>218672678Yeah it sucks. At least they somehow managed to wrap it up pretty nicely.
>>218676536most people don't realise this but it's set in the same universe
>>218681818because reddit hadn't been invented yet
>>218673138Poor portrayal of Octavian
>>218677269He's a midwit filter. Great understated performance.
>>218673577Yeah, but he was only doing it ironically
>open random wiki article about european history in the olden days>king Broderbund the Amazing consolidated power and conquered much of continental Europe>did so after killing his brother, three nephews, uncle, other uncle and some other related people>patron of the arts>one leg shorter than other, but unconfirmed>crowned Emperor because he kidnapped the pope, or had a local backup pope>had two sons, one died right away>other son is an imbecile and rules for 5 years then dies in a fishing accident>entire empire fragmentstough titty
>>218677402He acted a fine character, but that character was not a good Augustus, historically speaking
>>218681818Rome never stopped being a republic on paper. It took centuries for the emperors to even be honest about the fact that they're absolute monarchs, for a long time they maintained the illusion of republicanism and all the procedure and pageantry of the senate. Nobody thought of Rome as an empire, it was still the republic aka "the people".
>>218673138Doesn't look the part at all. Looks like some Syfy original anglo cuck.
>>218677660you're just a normie who isn't used to pure pragmatism.
there is not enough praise for mark antony in this thread
>>218695583Ah...Anon me old cock!
What was the point of no return for Rome?Seems like that even with lunatics in charge they still did quite well and the factors that lead to the downfall were not really related to their leadership directly.For instance no matter what the Emperors did the provinces would eventually exert more and more influence and citizenship would be given to more and more outsiders. Also the complexity of the bureaucracy would continue to increase, which created conflicts across the board.
>>218695833should have developed a more sophisticated caste system with strata in between slave and citizen for foreigners
>>218681818Power is a one way street
>>218695833For western rome? Probably when they took on/were invaded by large goth populations. Eastern rome it gets a lot more complicated
>>218681818People start with such a basic misunderstanding of Romain economics.There were not jobs or wages besides soldering,The entire economy was so centralized post 100 ad no one today would really understand it. You were more like an ant colony If you wondered off you’d likely be picked up as a stray and pressed into the lowest form of service. Most people begged for money, or where provided housing food from where they worked, which basically makes you a sort of slave class (not like American slave, a slave class). 1/5 people in the city were on the bread dole.9/10 people did not read, and anyways there were no books.Your knowledge was limited to what people wanted you to believe, this isn’t talked about enough, this is extremely limiting if you were born into ignorance,8/10 people were farmers, many working as slaves on the great estates.These people were no more able to rebel than a dog is able to rebel against crating, they simply lack the greater knowledge to act.Most people think Roman was like the tv and movies show it, it wasn’t.The simple answer the great estate owners benefited from having an emperor and they were the ones able to act. A weak emperor let them sit on their mostly self sufficient estates unmolested and a strong emperor provided gains in trade and military slaves
>>218675596I didn't realize how jacked the redhead was
>>218695997ah so there was no merchant class, no goods traded, no common or luxury items, no public life, no festivities, no communal events, nothing like that, right?Come off it, mate. I've had it with you wiki-historians with your brainless hot takes. Rome had a thriving public life and all sorts of jobs, manufacturing and industry going on, as well as cultural activities. This is all well known and documented so stop bullshitting.
>>218695833Racial browning.The boarders were closed for 2000 years after that for a reason.
>>218696058Those were all extremely limited as a portion of the population.You don’t know how trade worked, you are the wiki historian.And post 100 ad everything clpoassed and condensed
>>218690542I found it transitions perfectly to I claudius I Claudius starts with Octavian as an old man and wraps up all of Rome's hanging plot threads
>>218695833It shit the bed when Roman emperors had to stay with their army or it would rebell. Once rome got to that point it lost its ability to pump out loyal armies that served the state and was fragile. Had they kept the legitimacy of the senate for appointing first amongst equals I don't see it collapsing
>>218695997What in the fuck, lmao. Have you ever read a book?
>>218695943For eastern rome I'd argue the start of it was the Holy See/King Richard situation.
>>218695997grok is this true
>>218696237east rome allowed foid rulers which was their downfall
>>218672607I rewatched Rome and while the show is still good, it has too many soap opera sideplots that lead nowherewhy did octavius sleep with octavia? why did octavia go lesbo?even then, in the age of golden television, they had to have filler episodes
>>218696648>octavius sleep with octaviabecause the emperor does whatever the fuck he wants>why did octavia go lesbo?she was lowk groomed
So why are you retards discussing the fall of Rome when this thread is about the show Rome
>>218696648It is supposed to show what a hypocrite octavian is, he was swinging/molesting his own daughter/fucking his sister then when he becomes old he wanted everyone in rome to be a prude
>>218695833>What was the point of no return for Rome?There's no clear answer for this. A turnaround could theoretically happen at any point, but the rot was deep.>the factors that lead to the downfall were not really related to their leadership directly.This is why bureaucratic states always, always, always end up kicking the shit out of everyone else they fight. (Well, except for when they don't, but there's argument there.) They have such deep wells of resources and manpower to draw from, their societies have such strong institutions that whoever conquers them just ends up in charge of the same system.>>218696209>It shit the bed when Roman emperors had to stay with their army or it would rebell.This is why I would say that the core issues were rooted long ago, decades before Caeser. The big problems were:1. Widespread Political Violence and reprisals2. The use of armies for internal, political manners and civil war3. Removing leaders by assassinationIt's all these things becoming more and more common, becoming expected. Marching an army on Rome was like pulling the genie out of the bottle, they could never put it back in.I would also say that a massive problem is the Roman Empire never really figuring out how to truly administrate different regions. These districts were originally ad-hoc classifications, set up by military commanders for logistics, maybe they figured they would rework it after it was conquered, but it just stuck forever.So much of the Roman Empire was centralized from Rome, but in some areas it was not enough, or too much.Did you know that the Republican era, HALF of Roman armies were not Roman citizens? They were made from Roman allies and subject states on the Italian peninsula. These dudes paid pretty much no taxes, but were expected to provide troops. Over time, they became full Roman districts and citizens, and this cheapo form of troops vanished.There's so much to learn about Rome, so many problems, it's so interesting.
>>218696786but Octavian did none of those thingsHe actually suffered that bitch Livia for the rest of his life only to be poisoned by hertheir portrayal of Octavius was always lukewarm, some accurate traits (intelligent, introverted) other not so accurate traits (autistic, perverted)
>>218696345It cracks me up that their foid rulers actually, unironically massively fucked everything up. What are the odds that you get 2 female rulers and both of them are insane? Irene had her fucking son blinded in the room he was delivered in. Can you imagine?
>>218696808Nah there are rumors that him and his wife were swingers and that Livia used to arrange for him to sleep with women under the marrying age according to seutaneous
Was Augustus mom really a big fat whore
>>218696904are you dense? are you retarded?Suetonius was born over 50 years after Augustus diedAugustus was pretty much a priest when it came to sexuality and only got a hard on for power, partly the reason he married Livia
>>218696968She was actually a sweet virtuous timid lady. Attia got mixed with Fulvia from real life. Fulvia was Antony's ex wife, probably as rich as Pompey and the first mother in law of Octavian's. Antony cheats on her so she tries to fuck Octavian in revenge and the Octavian divorces her daughter. We find sling bullets gossiping about all this
>>218697000There is just as much written suggesting he was a perve and the writers all commented on his hypocrisy. I don't know what weird angle you have.
majority of all of this was just propaganda from both sides btw octavians side wanted to portray his mom as an innocent saint and the others wanted to show her as a slut we will literally never know which side was telling the truth its all fake
>>218697063common sensedo you think Augustus would had been such a good administrator that increased the empire twice his size and laid the foundations for the new imperial system if he had been whoring himself around like Mark Anthony? Those rumors are more credible when it comes to Emperor Tiberius, but even then, i have reason to doubt those too
>>218697167augustus was a fucking nerdy neek and got zero pussy unlike the chad mark antonymark antony was the greatest general of all time he wouldve been perfect he was meant to enjoy life, kill retards and have sex with the best whores in all of rome caeser dying fucked it up for him he wasnt meant to rule he was meant to fuck and kill and lead soldiers in an actual war unlike that beta augustus who hid behind agrippa
>>218673313No it was very necessary
>>218697167He was a hotheaded shithead who fueled his excess with proscriptions when he was in his twenties and didn't become a good administrator till later. He wouldn't have been able to pull it off either without Agrippa or Germanicus. Tiberius though I can't see him as a child raper considering divorcing his first wife for political aims broke him and he stopped functioning competently after being forced to do it. I can't square that with the psychopathy of the rumors.
>>218677669lmao
>>218697239exactly my pointAugustus is described by his contemporaries like a workaholic typethe idea that he slept with the wives of senators and then publicly humiliated makes no sense, considering how long he reigned and how he kickstarted Pax Romana
>>218694740lmao
>>218674478she was hag kino
>>218674519videogame graphics literally did not need to progress past this
>>218678439>this film seems a bit odd, no youtuber going WHATS UP GUYS??? at the start, no VPN promotion
>>218694740does that mean Julius got assraped by Crassus' kid in HBO Rome too?
>>218676878it was a different time!
>>218695997I wonder who could be behind this post
>>218675596Pullo was ironically more compatible with the crazy bitchHe literally forced the slave to marry him and barely had things to talk about as her latin was awful
Juno's private parts
>>218695833Brothers Gracchi was the last chopper ouuta 'Nam for the Roman Republic
>>218673258Healthy chad? He was notorious for missing battles due to feeling unwell. To this day historians debate whether he pussied (not chad) or genuinely was a sickly weakling (not healthy).>>218678733>that cursorAm I gay for noticing?>>218681818Even when they were a republic, they still appointed dictators, willingly or not. During the empire period, you basically needed a full-time dictator just to prevrnt the entire thing from crumbling, and that's during peaceful years.Another important thing is Augustus' long reign. By the time he died, there were several generations of Romans who got used to have a single central demigod ruler. There was no one around anymore to bring back the republic. They were long dead already from purges.>>218690542Yes. Even with the production problems, it is still a masterpiece. Even the second season which was rushed and butchered. People ITT (and all over the internet) complain about adult Octavian but imo he is extremely based.>>218695833People yap about this and that but it was only a matter of time before they collapsed from the migrations. Goths kept outsmarting them and got the first Roman emperor to die in battle. Then they had nothing to stop the Huns and their Germanic vassals. Persian pressure from the east also kept weakening them.
>>218681818there's some evidence that Nero was popular among the people but disliked by senatorsHe used to finance a lot of public arts and coliseum games so take that in mind, only literate people wrote about roman history aka patricianswe barely know anything about the pleb perspective but chances are most emperors were popular with them
>>218695997>misunderstanding of Romain economicsMY CABBAGES
>I give everything for Rome
>>218672607>I AM Greece
>>218675532How much does it cost to ask a 5 year old with an Internet connection who is interested in Egypt
>>218695833>What was the point of no return for Rome?christcucks
