>>219159376
All sci-fi is trash.

>>219159444
Maybe you haven't been exposed to enough good sci-fi

>>219159376
Avatar is unironically Oscar winning franchise and first movie would have even picked up Best Picture and Best Director noms if Hollywood wouldnt have picked up Sad American Soldiers In Iraq The Movie as propaganda piece.

>>219159739
Avatar 1 was indeed nominated for Best Picture and Best Director, and Way of Water was nominated for Best Picture again, though they didn't win any of those

>>219159376
if it abandoned the anti human element and instead just had some 3rd ork or terminid like faction that humanity and the navi worked together to fight it could be amazing. Instead james had to shove his faggotty political messaging into it

>>219160919
it isn't anti-human, its anti interstellar robber baron capitalism

If you can download a person's memories and personality into a computer and then upload those into an artificial body, doesn't that kinda negate the whole premise of the first movie where they needed to replace a dead scientist with his twin brother?
That guy should've been backed up, right?

>>219159376
GIVE THAT GIRL A SNOUT

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>>219161827

>>219160919
It's anti evil tho.

the whale plot is boring
the entire spider character is boring
quaritch and jake sooly constantly meeting up and helping each other then parting ways saying yo next time i'll totally kill you bro is homoerotic

The second and third are just fucking pixar movies. The first one 50% of it was humans. The fuck happened to this series.

>>219161658
You don't even know what that means

>>219159376
Yeah, I saw a bit of it the other day and was surprised how bad it was. The guy made Terminator, you think he knows how to tell a gripping story.

>>219160919
>anti-human
It's not though.

Maybe stop trying to inject your faggot 40k fantasies into everything

He should have just done ocean documentaries.

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>>219159444
FPBP. (((Sci-fi))) was created as a vessel to push marxist overtones.

>>219163546
There are many sci-fi stories which push the opposite.

>>219161736
The recoms in the second one don't have a driver linked to them, they are completely autonomous so perhaps the personality engram has to be implanted while the alien body is still growing.

Also we don't know how far ahead Tommy was in his training before he got shanked, IIRC his avatar was just a baby in a jar at that point.

Also also the recoms aren't a clone of the human original. It's the star trek transporter dilemma. The recom is it's own person with it's own will

>>219163546
>(((Sci-fi))) was created as a vessel to push marxist overtones.
Naa. You think John Carter Of Mars is Marxist?

>>219160919
what's crazy is how originally it wasn't anti-human at all
Avatar 1 had a ton of deleted scenes even after the director's cut
for example Selfridge had dialogues explaining how they basically can't get into physical altercation with the na'vi due to shareholder demand and all, so they are in a corner when they want to mine an ore they locals don't want to let them while their miners getting constantly attacked and they aren't allowed to retaliate
Quaritch and co. originally were security forces, not mercenaries, and there is a deleted scene that reframes how Quaritch had enough of Selfridge's corporate diplomatic pacifist bs and pulls a coup on the entire base
the reason Selfridge's company is shoveling money into Grace's project is to get the na'vi to let them mine that ore, and Grace and the other Avatar project members were expelled from the Omaticaya clan's camp after some of them went apeshit, killed some avatars, then blamed it on the human (hence the scene where Jake says he got Eytukan to allow Grace back who is greeted by na'vi teenagers and she tells them "oh my, how you've grown", because it probably happened years before)
So tl;dr the humans weren't assholes by default, it was more of just Quaritch being a dipshit version of Rourke from Atlantis, and the na'vi weren't morally pure either, Cameron just took the liberal jew pill and started virtue signaling to goys

>>219163588
He was far enough along that it was deemed worth recruiting his twin for no other reason than to make his avatar not a totally sunk cost even though they had no real idea of what he'd be doing.
Really given the implied expense it doesn't make sense that a bunch of avatars would be made just as a precaution with no plan to use them. If it's the case that there's a limited time frame in which to implant a personality then that's even more egregious because if you don't end up using them as backups then you either have to kill them which is a total waste or have a bunch of copied soldiers find out that they're half-human and living alongside the originals which seems like a breeding ground for serious conflict.

>>219159376
absolutely forgettable movie considering how much they spent on it didn't enjoy watching it at all

>>219163733
>not a totally sunk cost even though they had no real idea of what he'd be doing.
Well and avatar is an avatar. Having one, even if untrained is still a bonus.

>Really given the implied expense it doesn't make sense that a bunch of avatars would be made just as a precaution with no plan to use them.
If you mean the recoms, then they are a different thing altogether. Quaritch and his crew got uploaded, sent back to earth, then got resurrected on the way back to Pandora. Obviously considering the timeline the RDA took some time to come up with the plan.

I watched Way of Water for the first time recently and it kinda felt like a random season of a TV show instead of a film

>>219163763
They're not that different except that an autonomous being is a bit more useful than a drone.
They treat them as if they're the same people who died which is very sensible. They could've and should've backed up every person they were planning to send into space, especially considering that it takes only a few hours at most given how recent that guy's memories were before he died.

>>219159376
Skimmed the first one, didn't give a shit. Stupid ugly screaming blue bitch singing the song of her people was off-putting to me. Didn't see anything to be impressed by.

Haven't even bothered watching anything after that. I honestly just don't care.

>>219163843
>They could've and should've backed up every person they were planning to send into space,
Mm we don't know how much it costs to actually implant those memories into a recom body.
OG non-autonomous avatars were said to be like 4-5 billion a pop.

There's still the thing with the recom not actually being a 1/1 copy of the "original".
They are a different person.

>>219160919
>anti human element
smartest faghammer fan

>>219163933
I'm not even talking about implants they should just be backed up in case of something like accidental death which was the case for a bunch of grunts and should've been for an important scientist.
As for them being technically a different person that matters very little even to the characters int he movie which again is very sensible.
There's a setting that a sci-fi author named Larry Niven created in which a civilization has the technology to upload copied minds into bodies not their own, and they treat these people as if they are the same as the people/machines that they were uploaded into rather than who the minds piloting these bodies consider themselves to be based on their own memories. This leads to some foreseeable problems.

>>219164004
>I'm not even talking about implants they should just be backed up in case of something like accidental death
I mean,nthsts what they did in A2 so we got the recoms

>As for them being technically a different person that matters very little even to the characters int he movie
No? It's actually one of the central plots of 2 and 3
>Niven
Yeah but this wasn't written by Niven but by Cameron. Different universe, different rules.

>>219164065
The rules are the same namely that the people reborn as avatars don't consider themselves to be different people but rather the same people reborn in different bodies, and the same consequences follow.
And that they did what they should've done with some characters in the sequel given this technology is precisely the problem that I'm describing. They should've done it with everyone prior to the first film's beginning but they didn't.

>>219164131
>The rules are the same namely that the people reborn as avatars don't consider themselves to be different people
But that simply isn't true.
reQuaritch goes off the rails almost immediately and completes this arc in A3. He says it himself multiple times that he isn't the same person as original quaritch

>>219164166
That's a technicality. He behaves the same. If you want to get really philosophical about it I could do the same by considering how different I am now to who I was a year ago or who I'll be a year from now.
>A man never steps in the same river twice, for it is not the same river and he is not the same man.
But we have to be practical about some things.

>>219164187
>That's a technicality.
It's not a technicality if it's one of the central plots of the sequels.
OG qaritch would have never considered going native, never would have worked with Jake, or shacked up with an alien baddie.


FFS it's a Cameron movie and they literally almost look into the camera and say that he is explicitly not the same person. Jake says it in 3, reQuaritch crushes his predecessors skull in 2.

>>219164212
Again it's the same as how you or I might regard our past selves. I've done many things that I'd never have considered doing once upon a time.
And you might consider BTW that it's not even strictly philosophical as the cells that make up who you believe yourself to be (leaving a metaphysical soul aside for a moment) have been in a cycle of renewal since before you were even born. It's the same principle.

>>219164257
But you can clearly see the dichotomy when you compare Jake and quaritch


Jake is the perfect copy you're talking about, his mind was transferred to a new body wholesale while reQuaritch inherited second hand memories from a dead guy.

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>>219162861
And Kiri is kino

>>219164278
It's the same thing. What happened to the crippled guy? Is he not a dead guy from whom a half-human artifice inherited his memories?

>>219164317
No? Jake was alive when he got his mind transferred.

Notice how i write transferred. His "soul" or whatever was literally just poured into another vessel by Eywa.
Idk how to explain, think of it like a car engine.
Cripple Jake is Car A, and when he got an avatar body car A's engine was taken out and put in another chassis, it's the same engine.
reQuaritch is like if you took out an engine. Copied it into schematics and then built a new engine according to the plans. The "old" engine is still in the old chassis(human quaritch's corpse), theres no continuity.

>>219164351
Well that's applying your own peculiar metaphysics.
Imagine that it had taken years to transfer a soul by the same process. Would you still say there's no continuity? Maybe you would but this is basically just religious dogma.

>>219164411
>Well that's applying your own peculiar metaphysics.
No, I'm applying the logic that was stated clearly and multiple times in the films, by the director and the actor playing quaritch.

>>219163575
Like what?

>>219164448
The North American Confederacy is a good example, more blatantly political than most sci-fi

>>219164293
wasn't interested until i saw giant eywa head

>>219163933
>4-5 billion
Who knows how much this actually is in 2150+

>>219164317
It's this exactly. The brother asking how he died confirms them to be backups not Spirits.
Jake died and BluJake is a new guy.

>>219164850
>The brother asking how he died confirms them to be backups
That may be but the backups are still shown to have an existence of some kind(inter-clan couples being there) inside eywa, they don't spontaneously appear like when you play a video file or something.


There is an explicit difference between blue Jake and blue quaritch. Jake has a continuity of existence, reQuaritch doesn't.

>>219159739
Jimmy taught Kate Big everything he knows so it was a still a win

>>219159376
abatap is pure kino albeight

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>>219161658
>its anti interstellar robber baron capitalism

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>>219161658
>>219162313
>>219163434
>>219163990
The bad guy faction is 100% human, is implied to be the last chance of survival for the human race, and the only good guy humans are redditors who look like picrel.

Just stop.

>>219164980
Jake has memories, not confirmed continuity. It's a backup system. Do the copies get to exist? Yeah I guess that's good but nothing says they are anything but copies running on planternet.

>>219170229
> is implied to be the last chance of survival for the human race
At no point is this implied or stated. If anything, the opposite is shown regularly. As humanity casually wields technology more than sufficient to solve every possible problem.

You think this is a matter of the fate of humanity because humanity is willing to kill intelligent alien lifeforms, bulldoze/nuke alien ecosystems, and maintain an interstellar logistics chain to extract resources from pandora. Right now we’re still slash and burning the rainforests to grow coffee.

>>219170229
>bad guy faction is 100% human
Wrong. In the sequels you haven't seen, the bad guys include recombinants (humans uploaded into avatar bodies), as well as a faction of actual Na'vi who have turned against Eywa

>>219159376
I can't believe Cameron Just fucking redid the previous movie, with the fucking whaling finale and everything. It's like a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy.

>>219170229
>last chance of survival for the human race
The RDA doesn't represent humanity, they are an evils greedy mega corporation that is actually(not in you're retarded headcannon) responsible for the earth being fucked up

>>219170736
>At no point is this implied or stated
>Humanity went back to their dying planet
>Look into graces' memories, they killed their mother
It was 100% implied in the first movie which is why they changed the goal to immortaility juice for billionares in the second.

>>219171033
I've seen both sequels and you're retarded. You're saying there are some navi bad guys, not that there are any good guys who are human and non-redditors.

>>219171350
>The RDA doesn't represent humanity, they are an evils greedy mega corporation that is actually(not in you're retarded headcannon) responsible for the earth being fucked up
Frankly none of this changes anything. The story creates a narrative where the viewer is expected to cheer when humans die on screen mass and be sad when aliens don't. Is there ever one instance in any of these movies where you're expected to cheer because a human killed a non human? No.
That is training your mind to be anti human. This works at a deep level, there's a reason they spend billions of dollars on propaganda.

You can call me a chud but you can't call me wrong.

>>219170229
he has a big blue cat wife though

>>219172643
>Is there ever one instance in any of these movies where you're expected to cheer because a human killed a non human?
A3 when spider shoots quaritch


>The story creates a narrative where the viewer is expected to cheer when humans die on screen mass and be sad when aliens don't
So? The humans are murderous destructive invaders and the aliens are defending themselves.
Plus, they are all mercenary corpo slaves so why should i be sad about them dying?

>>219159376
It's not trash, it's a great movie and the third one is even better
>>219160919
>anti human element
shit that never happened to 500
>muh ork muh terminid
go back to /v/ kiddie

>>219170229
humanity could just find another planet to colonize that isn't occupied with the tech they are wielding. at any rate the way the RDA is treating earth will only ruin it faster and screw over the people that get left behind.

>>219172738
>So? The humans are murderous destructive invaders and the aliens are defending themselves.
Yes, and the fact that a narrative was built around that very concept is anti-human and by extension anti-you. Do you really not understand how this works?

>>219172977
>humanity could just find another planet to colonize that isn't occupied with the tech they are wielding.
>>219170736
>As humanity casually wields technology more than sufficient to solve every possible problem.

And yet they can't kill native americans? This is the other problem with the movie: The constant inconsistencies with tech balance. You motherfuckers bend things in any way you can to make it so the aliens who dindu nuffin are the good guys.

>>219173047
they're natives that are like nine feet tall, shoot arrows with the strength of bullets and live with dragons on flying maglev mountains that interfere with navigation and targeting systems. Also the humans WERE winning until Eywa intervened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3e3EpTsvCY
watch the movie lol

>>219172643
>It was 100% implied in the first movie
Literally never happened. The movie explicitly tells you that the only reason they are there is money.

>>219172998
>how this works

So your schizo theory is that the deep state commissioned Cameron to make a move that would... Make me dislike greedy corporations?

Based deep state

>>219173195
>they're natives that are like nine feet tall, shoot arrows with the strength of bullets and live with dragons on flying maglev mountains that interfere with navigation and targeting systems.
At the end of the day they're organic mass. If humanity somehow can't deal with that the idea that we could terraform some rock planet is fucking absurd.

I actually just recently watched Avatar 2 and 3 after not having seen any except the first one when it came out.

It's schlocky and some of the stuff is kind of just retarded, but it had its moments. I especially see why the internet had a thing for the evil Navi chick from 3.

However, I think the one problem I have with the overall structure is that it's essentially just the same movie 3 times:
>Humans come to alien planet, one human goes native and joins the aliens to fight the evil destructive humans who are only there to plunder resources for cash.
>Humans come BACK to alien planet, same motive but this time it's animal goo instead of metal, human-turned-alien guy leads his people to fight back and stop them.
>Humans come back AGAIN, still the same motive as before except this time they also just want to kill the human-turned-alien main character because they see him as a terrorist, I guess.

And so my issue is that I know they're gonna do another movie, and I have a feeling it's going to just be the same thing again, instead of at least having the plot be less about reverse Cowboys vs. Indians, and more about letting the humans actually settle the planet and figure out some way they can function together so that they can explore some of the threats and monsters and shit from the planet itself instead of just having a bigger spaceship come to blow more shit up again.

>>219173449
>Literally never happened. The movie explicitly tells you that the only reason they are there is money.

https://youtu.be/TeiWhrXOz30?t=245
At 4:05 "the aliens went back to their dying world.

https://youtu.be/J8n8E0oOiRc?t=102
At 1:43 "earth is dying, our new mission is to colonize"

>>219173491
>So your schizo theory is that the deep state commissioned
No, i mission the propaganda angle as proof that these things effect your mind. I don't think cameron is funded i think he's just a faggot hippie stuck in the 70s. It doesn't matter why they do it, they point is these movies require you to root for non humans against humans and that's why the movies have no cultural staying power. people love the visuals and the cool universe but nobody is going to get really invested into something that preaches to them.

>>219173195
Literally just drop rocks on them from orbit.
Nothing they can do about it.

You could probably station a lone engineer there, with some self-replicating drones to build haulers to go haul rocks to throw into the gravity well, and he would take out everything on the planet in a decade or so on his own.

Sending thousands of dudes down there with machineguns is retarded.
>b-but muh immortality whales
they live in the ocean, they'll be fine. just take out the trees.

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i just think the space cat women are hot

>>219173047
>And yet they can't kill native americans?
They absolutely can, the issue is that in all 3 movies, even though the humans are willing to destroy nature with their ships and then clear space to build their own factory city, train tracks, etc., they are always very hesitant to just straight up murder Navi people unless they're attacked directly.

Like, the whole point seems to be that outside of Jake Sully, who they want to capture, the military and the business people don't really seem interested in just shooting random natives and would prefer to just be left alone to mine their shit, farm the sea life, and make their money in peace. But Sully is the one who keeps leading them to attack and destroy infrastructure, which is what causes the violent conflict.

>>219173612
The problem is you're thinking of "humanity" as one unified group with a power level like the races in Avartar are anime characters or something. The RDA made a mining colony for the sole purpose of getting unobtanium and they only shipped up the military hardware they needed to defend that colony. They don't have unlimited resources to throw at the navi.

>>219173784
The first quote is from Jake that has a good reason to dislike humanity and earth and the second one is from Ardmore who is just toeing the company line.


If the RDA has the resources and technology for interplanetary travel and mining they can also fix earth.

But they don't want to fix earth, they want to make money and ruin another planet while doing it.
>require you to root for non humans against humans
So?
Stop being a LARPing 40kfag

>>219173867
in the extended version, they spent lots of time buildings schools and shit too. which the natives just lmaoed@ and destroyed.

really makes you think

>>219173867
>don't really seem interested in just shooting random natives and would prefer to just be left alone to mine their shit, farm the sea life, and make their money in peace.
Glad that you admit you didn't watch the films

>>219173931
You didn't watch the movie

>>219173892
just throw fucking rocks you stupid nigger teleporting your ass to another fucking solar system in a human lifetime is a billion times harder than blowing up a fucking planet even sending a single soldier there from earth would take more effort than scorching the entire planetary body to dust so stfuuuuupprpprrprhprphprh

>>219173899
>If the RDA has the resources and technology for interplanetary travel and mining they can also fix earth.

You don't know that's true in-universe. Clearly, having both the ability to create, and the need to create, space tech to send huge amounts of equipment, people, and materials trillions of miles across the galaxy to an alien world just to strip-mine it, means that A.) There's no options closer to Earth that they could have chosen, and B.) They don't have the resources left on Earth to do what they need to.

They say that they're actively looking to colonize, and the whole sub-plot of the 3rd movie is that the human kid gets fungus-magic'd into being able to breathe Navi air, which the humans immediately want to reverse-engineer because they'd love nothing more than to turn the planet into their newest habitation, and the fact that they need masks to breathe is what is preventing that.

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>>219173961
then how did I know? checkmate, atheist. now go back to your crib.

>>219174009
>just throw fucking rocks you stupid nigger
They can't do that. And even if they could it wouldn't be worth the resources put into actually doing it and then dealing with the fucked up surface.

>>219173938
I very much did, literally just the other day. What are you contending I said that was wrong? Because aside from the one single squad of Navi-clones-with-human-brains, both the military and the RDA make it very clear that they do not have unlimited resources or interest in hunting down Sully, and the only reason they're in active conflict is because he keeps blowing up their trains and shit and stealing their stuff.

The humans have millions of guns and bullets, explosives, flying ships, fire, etc. They could fly around and execute every single Navi settlement in like, a day, if they really wanted to. But they DON'T do that, specifically because it doesn't benefit them TO do it.

>>219174020
>There's no options closer to Earth that they could have chosen
Because no other planet has unobtainium on it. I know you didn't even see the movie and got all your knowledge from 40k HFYfag curclejerks but at least try

>B.) They don't have the resources left on Earth to do what they need to.
They obviously have enough to create dozens of interstellar spaceships and generically engineer entire hybrid species

>>219174020
>You don't know that's true in-universe
anon they can build entire custom lifeforms from scratch. they could rebuild the earth's ecosystem in a matter of years. they don't want to because that wouldn't be economically viable. read: no short term profit, just spending tons of money making sure the earth survives without regard for shareholders.

>>219174037
the natives didn't destroy the school, the RDA did.

And Selfridge says the only ever opened the school to try and manipulate the natives into giving up their land

>>219174009
idk if that would work logistically considering it takes years for a ship to travel from earth from pandora. but regardless blowing up a planet full of life that could be dissected and made into useful products like whale juice isn't in the RDA's best interest. In the original script there's even vaccines developed from cells created by eywa.

>>219174138
>the natives didn't destroy the school, the RDA did.
Again you're arguing within the frame of the narrative, the point is that narrative existing is the problem. Why did cameron write a story where humanity are such pieces of shit and deserve to die? Because he's a redditor.

>>219174106
>What are you contending I said that was wrong?
You say that the humans "just wanted to be left alone", which is completely wrong as they were actively encroaching on Na'vi territory, and we're in the process of polluting and destroying pandora.


I know you didn't watch the movie because the entire second act is about them burning down and bulldozing their fucking village you stupid fuck

>>219174116
unobtanium is a naturally occurring room temperature superconductor, who's value would be based on the costs of making artificial superconductors and what they're needed for.

>>219174106
>They could fly around and execute every single Navi settlement in like, a day, if they really wanted to.
They can't and this is explained in the films. But you didn't watch them so it's okay

>>219174171
Why do you keep acting like "humanity" is the space-faring version of the east india trading company?

>>219174171
>where humanity
the RDA*

>>219173899
>Ardmore who is just toeing the company line.
So no matter what is said or isn't said in the script cameron wrote you're correct about everything. Nice.

>>219174262
>you're correct about everything.
I know mum correct, that's what I've been telling you

>>219174256
>the RDA*
Is composed entirely of what race exactly?

>>219174296
capitalists and paramilitary contractors.

>>219174296
I've never seen anyone dodge their own argument lol good job

>>219173892
This is exactly my original point made here >>219160919 .

Why does the RDA have to be entirely made of humans and almost explicitly being stated to be the last hope for 99% of the human race as stated here >>219173784

If you made the RDA a 3rd alien faction and had the humans be a small race of explorers, and kept everything else about the movie 100% exactly the same what would change?

>>219174171
The things the RDA does are things real life colonizers did. The Trail of Tears for example.

>>219174116
>Because no other planet has unobtainium on it.
That may be, but they're also not particularly interested in that by movie 2, and have moved on to other stuff. But also even if that specific material was useful, it's not super clear how they even found out it was on that planet in the first place, and concluded that it doesn't exist anywhere else. That's all very much outside of the scope of the film script though, so there isn't an answer, but the idea that a specific material only exists on a specific planet an incredibly far distance from Earth and nowhere else where it might involve less armed conflict to acquire is kind of stupid.

>>219174213
I didn't say they were innocent, I said they want to be left alone to do what they're there to do. Obviously they're there to strip-mine the planet, hunt the game, and take other resources, no shit. But that doesn't change the fact that they very clearly would prefer to do it without having to shoot the natives and they're being forced into doing that because of the insurgency.

>I know you didn't watch the movie because the entire second act is about them burning down and bulldozing their fucking village you stupid fuck
In the first movie, yes, and they fought about it. The whole point of the 2nd movie is that over the following like, 15 years, the military and corporations settled into their own place and are just focused on their operations.

>>219174359
>Why does the RDA have to be entirely made of humans
Because its a human corporation.

This is the only part of your post that's actually in the movie.

>>219172892
>/v/
c'mon bro

>>219174375
>I didn't say they were innocent, I said they want to be left alone to do what they're there to do. Obviously they're there to strip-mine the planet, hunt the game, and take other resources, no shit
So why are you having a bitchfit at the na'vi for fighting the people trying to destroy their home again?
>That may be
It is
>But also even if that specific material was useful, it's not super clear how they even found out it was on that planet in the first place
Because the movie says so

>>219174391
>Because its a human corporation.
And why do you think the writer chose to make it a human corporation? Really stick with this I know you can figure it out. Remember we're asking why this movies aren't culturally relevant.

>>219174454
>And why do you think the writer chose to make it a human corporation?
Because the aliens in James Cameron's avatar universe don't have corporation's. Next question.

>>219174454
Because the corporation is from earth, acting like a space version of the east india trading company.

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>>219174359
>Why did the RDA have to be a human faction?
>>219174391
>because it's a human faction

>>219174359
>Why does the RDA have to be entirely made of humans

This is, I think, probably the series' largest weakness, because I think (though don't remember if it's said specifically) that the Navi are essentially the first alien race humanity has ever interacted with. Which I suppose makes it lucky that the only other aliens out there to talk to are just functionally taller tribal humans. But because of that, there will always be that grating between the two. Navi clearly have a culture of trading, of exchange between their distinct peoples, and of survival of the dangers of their planet, and yet they have no interest in trading with humans or working to reconcile a beneficial situation with them, because if they did then the narrative would have to admit that actually, their native-tribal ways are kind of dumb and backwards, and the clearly benefit from technology like guns and medicine and other things.

Which is why the 3rd movie gets a LITTLE weird, because both 1 and 2 spend time telling the audience that the Navi don't use metal weapons because it's not native and it hurts their spirit, but in 3 they do use guns and it's just glossed over how much better it makes them. So if you follow that path just a bit farther, a few more years on the planet would inevitably see the Navi trading for and using technology.

>>219174454
I'm going to do you a favor. I'm going to grant you the idea the only way to save earth, to save humanity is to rape another planet and everything on it to death.

Why is earth dying? Could it be because the same things the space corporation is doing the same things that raped earth to death and brought humanity to the brink of destruction? Read: pursuit of short term profit at the cost of all other concerns because fuck you got mine not my problem let the next generation figure it out?

>>219174492
The question is retarded in and of itself.

Wtf do you mean why is it a "human" corporation?
It's because it's based on earth and earth is populated by humans. Unless you wanted Cameron to add a blurb how it's also run by sentient gerbils or something

>>219174511
>they have no interest in trading with humans or working to reconcile a beneficial situation with them
What does humanity have to offer to the na'vi? Why would they give a fuck?

>>219174546
>>219174557
God you niggers are so stupid. You don't have to grant me anything, let's say within the lore of the movie humanity is 100% pure evil and there's 0 argument against that. The question we're asking is *WHY WAS THE MOVIE WRITTEN THAT WAY?*.

The answer to that question is the answer to the question above which is "why do these movies make so much money but don't get talked about?"
Because the audience is entirely human and the audience doesn't like being depicted as evil.

>>219174624
>let's say within the lore of the movie humanity is 100% pure evil and there's 0 argument against that.
It's not

>WHY WAS THE MOVIE WRITTEN THAT WAY?*.
Because it wasn't

>>219174624
>let's say within the lore of the movie humanity is 100% pure evil

Except that is contradicted by the movies, as there are numerous humans who don't want to rape pandora to death. Most likely tons on earth, hence why the RDA doesn't just fry the entire planet, due to the bad PR that would generate.

the thing is you're operating from a faulty premise contradicted by the movie itself even if we allow for the total rape of pandora being necessary for humanity to survive. If earth is dying, its not due to a natural disaster or unforeseeable crisis. its due to the exact same things humanity is doing on pandora.

>>219174610
>What does humanity have to offer to the na'vi?
This is a question one could ask of any culture. What did the Romans have to offer the Anglos? What did the British and the French have to offer the Native Americans? Probably not much the first time they met, but once a less-advanced culture realizes that subsistence living is possible to rise above, then things begin changing. I'm sure the living Navi might say "We don't need anything from them", but their children probably won't think that way. That's kind of just what happens when people live in proximity to each other.

>>219174511
The Navi don't 100% adhere to their spiritual beliefs and in the comics they do use guns after purifying themselves. It's not like no Christian has ever sinned before.

>>219174796
That's kind of my point. Clearly it's just principals of convenience, and almost certainly if Cameron was actually writing the narrative to evolve meaningfully, then the next movie would probably be set another 10-15 years in the future where a lot of the Navi are beginning to open up trade, normalize relations, and even help humans settle the planet in some ways, so that we don't have to go through a "Oh no, they're back to destroy <insert native thing>, time to fight with bows again!" story for a 4th time.

>>219174862
yes, the franchise should end with pandora essentially being brazil.

>>219174907
Well there's gonna be a 4th movie, and I'm not sure that another bout of fighting spaceship with sticks and then having a big naked-alien dance party after is really needed. We got it the first three times.

>>219174753
>This is a question one could ask of any culture. What did the Romans have to offer the Anglos? What did the British and the French have to offer the Native Americans?
Except the na'vi aren't human and don't have human concepts of value.


To a Na'vi, their civilisation has already achieved it's absolute peak.

>>219174862
>lot of the Navi are beginning to open up trade, normalize relations
I'm going to break into your house, start tearing up the floorboards and shit on your bed. In exchange in will provide you with some McDonald's coupons.

>>219174963
>To a Na'vi, their civilisation has already achieved it's absolute peak.
Yes, because they grew up in a world without guns. But now they live in a world with guns, and some of them see the guns and say "I want that.", and so they go make a deal to get them. And like, in the 3rd movie, the raiding marauder Navi get the guns, so obviously all of the people that they target to raid and kill and steal from will say "Well shit, they have guns and I can't do anything about that unless I also have guns, so how can I get me some guns?" and then they have to go trade for the guns.

And now you have kids who are growing up in a world where their parents have guns. You see my point here?

>>219175009
There's like, a 15 year time gap between the first and second movie. That's a long time, my dude.

>>219175079
>Yes, because they grew up in a world without guns.
And they never would have if the humans didn't show up.


>Well shit, they have guns and I can't do anything about that unless I also have guns, so how can I get me some guns?"
And when they defeat the humans with those guns they will get rid of them and continue living like they have before.

I cared more about the rock in Goose's Wholesome 100 movie than the entire Na'vi race and their planet put together.

>>219174955
no bro you're completely right in order for a franchise about human corporations seeking short term profit then for the narrative to evolve organically pandora should be raped into a third world nation where the navi are cheap labor.

>>219175111
>That's a long time, my dude.
A long time in which the humans were exiled from pandora because they were acting like niggers

>>219175127
>And when they defeat the humans with those guns they will get rid of them and continue living like they have before.
If you watched the third movie, it literally opens with Jake and his family collecting guns, rockets, and other shit from the wreck from the 2nd film, and handing them out to the tribe he's with. They didn't throw them away, they kept them, and it turned out they needed them later. And those marauders, also didn't throw them away afterwards. So they're still going to be there, and the humans aren't leaving because they built a fuckin' city to live in.

>>219159376
It was the first film i saw in 3d with the stupid glasses and it remains one of the worst films ive ever seen

>>219175228
not enough about a strong transgender mixed race genderqueer's struggle for acceptance in 1960s budapest?

>>219159376
how did this get so many people willing to eat this up? i remember i had a friend who wanted me to watch the stupid avatar DVD he brought over. is it because of the plot with native propaganda bullshit? why can't the viewer watching root for the humans? they seemed really reasonable the whole time.

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>>219175173
>A long time in which the humans were exiled from pandora because they were acting like niggers
That didn't happen? They didn't leave, they built a whole fucking city.

>>219175207
>They didn't throw them away, they kept them, and it turned out they needed them later.
Obviously you missed the scene where the other navi reject the guns and don't use them
> marauders, also didn't throw them away afterwards
The mangkwan are portrayed as complete psychos though.


In the end both they and the humans eat shit and lose so it doesn't really matter if they had guns or not.

>>219173047
>they can't kill native americans
Just asking, are you a genocidal jew?

>>219175289
>That didn't happen? They didn't leave,
Holy fuck you ACTUALLY haven't watched the movies lmfao

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>>219175289
they used deceleration plumes from their crazy interstellar travel vehicles to nuke the area for that city.

>>219170229
The humans are objectively the villains tho. You're not entitled to take over another planet just because you turned your own into a shithole

>>219175481
Watch him defend it, actual nigger mentality

>>219175328
When someone is too stupid to be capable of empathy, it becomes impossible to have any functioning theory of mind, and so enemies become cartoon characters. This sort of hilarious self-own is downstream from that retardation, combined with the limitless malice of the genocidal manics.

The sequels are full of pot holes

After Jake went in exile there was literally no reason to follow, the problem was explicitly stated to be that under his leadership the na'vi kept raiding and sabotaging them, he couldn't do that from the sea, more importantly, he didn't want to out of fear of retribution.

How come all na'vi speak the same language? On Earth you can have identical looking people from neighboring tribes that can't understand each other but on Pandora the various sub-species of na'vi inhabiting different biomes all speak the same language?

Why is it that humans with human weaponry need to be saved by the Mangkwan with human weaponry? Are the Scorpion copters useless now? Literally the same thing happened in the first movie, an ambush with Ikran riders they were able to fend off until Eywa decided to intervene. Also, the Skimwings are suddenly able to fly in the sky now?

Are the Tulkuns retarded? Dead bodies rotting on the sea were ok but a disfigured living one was a step too far?

>>219175719
>How come all na'vi speak the same language?
probably has something to do with being able to direct brain interface with an archive of literally every navi that ever existed.

>>219175719
>After Jake went in exile there was literally no reason to follow,
Why didn't the US just stop hunting bin laden after he went into hiding?
>How come all na'vi speak the same language?
Everyone is connected with planetwide psychic internet and have been their entire lives.


>Why is it that humans with human weaponry need to be saved by the Mangkwan with human weaponry?
Because they were severely outnumbered and ambushed


> Tulkuns retarded? Dead bodies rotting on the sea were ok but a disfigured living one was a step too far?
They take two movies to explain this to the audience

>>219175719
>Are the Tulkuns retarded?
They're a matriarchal society, so yes.

>>219175328
>thinking colonialism is based makes you a jew
the state of /tv/

>>219176570
>he doesn't get it
The state of /tv/

>whit- I mean sky people LE BAD
>whit- I mean sky people LE EVIL
>whit- I mean sky people LE STOOOPID

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I'm waiting for the proper blu-ray 4k rip for my Neys

>>219176997
You're 12.

>>219175854
>Why didn't the US just stop hunting bin laden after he went into hiding?
Revenge, which was Quaritch's motivation, but not that of his superiors

>Everyone is connected with planetwide psychic internet and have been their entire lives.
>>219175822
The Tulkuns had their own language which needed to be translated into na'vi

>They take two movies to explain this to the audience
There's literally no explanation for their change of mind other than a last minute appeal to emotion which apparently undos their entire belief system

>>219177062
>NEYTIRI SULLY MOOLTIPASS!

>>219177339
> but not that of his superiors
He was literally brought back with the sole purpose of hunting him down

>>219177339
>a last minute appeal to emotion which apparently undos their entire belief system
>appeal to emotion

I'm not sure what the matriarchs are supposed to feel after a testimony of two mutilated last survivors of a family told them what the humans would do to every single member of their race, starting with the mothers and their cubs

>>219164448
Book of the New Sun

Starship Troopers (the book)

A Canticle for Leibowitz (technically post apocalyptic for most of the novel)

PKD’s later stuff

>>219159376
It's all just a bunch of fakes playing dress up and make believe. Try not to take it to seriously. This isn't religion it's film.

>>219177397
When they were still raiding, no Jake, no raids, no problem.

>>219177459
>after a testimony of two
So all they needed for convincing was one more extra disfigured Tulkun to tell them the exact same they were told by Payakan and probably observed themselves before?

>>219159376
It’s easily the greatest franchise ever made and all the hate these movies get is inorganic. Every criticism these movies get is doubly true for the Lotr and Dune movies, yet retards on the internet aren’t able to connect two and two together, so avatar gets all the hate unjustified

Damn i didnt expect the third movie to be an exact copy of the second movie

>>219178022
Jon Landau pulled the greatest trick called the Death Star maneuver.

>>219177459
Also they could have asked the victims themselves what they thought they should do if they had a Tulkun heaven like the na'vi, they are shown linking with the underwater spirit tree

>>219178078
they don't remember how they died tho

>>219177339
>why does every member of species speak same language?
>maybe the ability to plug their brains into a planet sized computer that stores all their ancestors?
>okay but what about different species why it have different language???
Because it’s a different fucking species?

And btw, if humans were able to copy, save and upload consciousness just like Eywa, couldn't they have made a backup for their scientist's minds, such as Jake's twin brother, upload it to his avatar and spare us the whole shebang? Or perhaps put in in a matrix like simulation? That'd have been an equally unoriginal but better movie

>>219160919
Why are chuds this fucking insecure? Like this isn't even something critiquing your race or your gender. Its critiquing humanity in the context of a fictional scenario with blue aliens. Like why the fuck do you feel threatened by that?

>>219178078
Anon, the movie explains the tulkun don’t die at all. Ever. They just keep growing. They’re being hunted to harvest the compound that enables this.

>>219178292
>do you consent to have your brain copied and used indefinitely?
>no.

Eddie falcon was cast for her resting disgust face, to establish how people view digital copies. Also establishes the value of space-whale brain juice.

>>219178431
>Their lifespans are long but can vary greatly from 150 to 250 years.

>>219178343
>Because it’s a different fucking species?
I'd argue all the oceanic na'vi are a different species, their last common ancestor with the jungle na'vi must be at least in the thousands of years apart

>>219178634
"The powers that be thought it prudent that I do this backup just in case"

>>219178393
Jake's brother died before he even left earth. Nobody expected him to get shanked outside of a warzone.

>>219178878
If it's possible for Lo'ak and Tsireya to fuck and have kids, and no one has suggested it's not, then ocean and forest Na'vi would be the same species.
Possibly different *sub*species, but they look the same on the inside once you get past the extra flipper-like membranes etc.
The wiki thinks all Na'vi are one species, while acknowledging the physical variation among them

>>219179355
So do horses and donkeys, but their offspring is infertile. On the other hand neanderthals, denisovans and homo sapiens were different species from the same genus (homo) that could produce fertile offspring

>>219179507
Hence why horses and donkeys are considered different species genius.

>>219180240
Because they can have kids? You are not following the argument

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>>219160919
It's an alien invasion movie where humans are the aliens. Surely you fags should love it as an anti-immigrant movie.
But then I'm forgetting that you people have no principles and just want everything to go your way, regardless of what principles you need to feign to make that happen.

>>219160919
The movies are generic boring stupid garbage regardless of the messaging

>>219181025
modern inmigration is not the same as colonization or military conquest (trad inmigration)

>>219180914
Infertile/non-viable offspring dimwit.

>>219181352
That wasn't the argument

>>219159376
JAKESULLEY

>>219181451
The “argument” (read: you knowing shit about shit) is how speciation is defined. If two entities can naturally mate and produce viable offspring (read: fertile) they are the same species. If they can’t, they are different species.

>>219181451
I'm >>219179355 and yes that was kind of my argument, the movies never suggest that type of incompatibility between members of different Na'vi clans.
When Tonowari says
>You are Metkayina now
It doesn't come with the disclaimer of
>Oh but your children can't mate with ours, or if they do your grandchildren will be sterile

>>219181259
So immigration is good so long as you're doing it with murderous intent instead of peaceful intent?
No, I'm thinking in terms of principles again. That's not what you believe. That's just a feigned statement that correlates with your real position that immigration is good when you do it and bad when anyone else does it. Even when you do it by the edge of a sword.

>>219181551
Except that's just the broadest definition possible (and it doesn't apply to asexual reproduction) and that the argument that was made nowhere mentioned or implied it

>>219181687
How would they even know? It might be a extremely rare occurrence or even a first time that non-oceanic na'vi were welcomed int their tribe

>>219181712
How many good movies about peaceful immigration can you remember vs how many movies about conquest or colonization have you watched?

>>219178424
Leftists trained me in "media literacy" for 20 years to criticize movies down to the gnat's ass for being too white, western propaganda, etc. I'm simply applying that training to the movies they make.

>>219182570
So much training made you a tranny

>>219182340
Sadly humans are infatuated with conflict. They don't often make movies about peaceful things.

>>219175481
does it actually say why earth is becoming uninhabitable? what if its a natural disaster

>>219183237
All the more reason to kill nature before it kills us

>>219183237
It's a combination of things. Climate change, resource depletion, wars including nuclear ones fought over those remaining resources, air pollution, famine, overpopulation, ecosystem collapse.
And a general unwillingness in preceding centuries to accept that the earth isn't always going to adapt and recover from whatever damage humans inflict upon it

>>219183561
The natural counterpoint to this is that Jake Sully and co. are actual, unabashed, unironic race traitors. Not in the meme way, but in the "I am willing to let my entire species die for a moral cause" kind of way.

>>219181841
It’s also the most specific definition possible due to how many ways there are to crossbreed and produce viable hybrids.

>>219183237
Earth isn’t uninhabitable. It just isn’t economically viable to solve the problems on earth.

>>219183858
Counterpoint to that: allowing the RDA to colonize Pandora would not save the human race in the long term, as those particular aggressor humans if left unchecked would relatively quickly deplete Pandora's resources and collapse its ecosystems and put themselves in the same situation again, unlike the Na'vi.

>>219184235
But anon, they’re only going to allow the megarich on pandora.

>>219184423
Yes, those reasonable, environmentally conscious megarich people who are paying to wipe out the tulkun

Are cameronfags ironic or not? Every avatar thread is just a Poe’s Law cesspit

>>219183858
Why wouldn't he be? His life became infinitely better the moment he became a Na'vi

>>219184235
Nature is a zero sum game anon. Just because there's a finite amount of resources on earth doesn't mean humanity should be left to die in the dark.

>>219186885
He's a human being. His existence was preceded by countless years of human struggle and he has a responsibility as a soldier to protect humanity.
The movie asks you to assume that Sully lived in a vacuum all this time and literally nothing else matters to him except alien pussy

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>>219183858
>I am willing to let my entire species die for a moral cause
That's basically my position these days. I think humanity fucking sucks, always has, and the more I learn about us the more I think that we don't deserve to go on living.
I think the way we evolved saddled us with a lot of terrible instincts that make it almost impossible for us to achieve an ethical society. We developed from tribal marauders who all killed and stole from each other because the best murderous thieves were more successful.
The religions all know it. In Christianity it's original sin. In Buddhism it's worldly attachments. It's all just a way of saying, "humans are bad and we have to overcome our nature". But the only way for humans to truly overcome a nature baked into our DNA is to stop being human.

>>219187134
>nature is a zero sum game
Without modern human civilization and technology and its pollution and wastefulness, no it's really not, or not in any comparable way.
Nature without us doesn't waste and pollute, rather nearly all matter that's used and expelled quickly goes back into the cycle as something useful to another organism.

>>219184235
That's what's funniest about the anti-avatar idiots. They are mad that someone dares to say "hey, maybe ease up on the capitalism a bit and live sustainably" And would prefer unleashing a horde of billions of brown immigrants on paradise to consume it as fast as possible leaving it a barren, plastic filled, smog covered wasteland. All to own the libs. And seemingly Pandora's one of the only other livable worlds found so most of those billions would die rather quickly while the fatcat CEOs would take their spaceships and immortality juice to fly off into space looking for more paradise worlds. Current humanity dies and the elite become God Emperors of their own little humanity sect