Why is Luke so bitter and acts like an idiot in the Last Jedi? what could have happened to him to make him become such a bitter failed old man?
>Why is Luke so bitter and acts like an idiot in the Last Jedi? Because the writer doesn't understand the character, that's it.
Old white men bad
Humiliation ritual.
>>219532291>Why is Luke so bitter and acts like an idiot in the Last Jedi?Because he wasn't actual Jedi according to George and hist heir.
>>219532733Stop being disingenuous. George said that Luke is not a "traditional" Jedi. Interpret that in whatever way you will.
>>219532291>Why is Luke so bitter and acts like an idiot in the Last Jedi?Why is Yoda so bitter and acts like an idiot in The Empire Strikes Back?
>>219532866Yoda wasn't bitter.
>>219532832>George said that Luke is not a "traditional" Jedi.Nope he siad "I don't think Luke was a real jedi"
>>219533179He absolutely was. And had good reason to be.
>>219532291they showed in the movie though. he got urges when he saw kylo asleep and vulnerable and that disgusted him, he thought he was a good person but then it turned out after all that jedi growing and heroics no, he was 'after' a young boy inherently. he also got caught in this moment and so there was no lying to himself that it didn't happen. This is not a joke btw, the scene and plot is a direct deliberate allegory of a kid getting turned into a sociopath because of someone raping them and the person being someone in their family
>>219532291>what could have happened to him to make him become such a bitter failed old man?He watched The Force Awakens
>>219534198This reminds me of the people that interpret all those Brothers Grimm fairytales as allegories for sexual awakenings and/or sexual violence.Well, all power to you. Death of the author and so on.
>>219532866>>219534040Put down your phone and you can follow along with the movie zoom zoom.
>>219532291Idk, toppling an evil empire only to have a bigger and more aggressive one take its place would blackpill me too. How the fuck do you even cope with something like that?
JJ was too much of a hack to think through the implications of Luke fucking off into the great unknown without telling even his closest friends and family where he was going. Johnson decided if they were going to do remixes of the OT, Luke would get to be yoda.
>>219534950Are you really trying to tell me that Yoda in Empire, particularly right after we meet him, came across anything like he'd later be portrayed in the prequels? Or that he was genuinely hopeful Luke would succeed at any point in the film? Obi-Wan literally had to pep-talk him into even trying.
>>219535025>cripple the empire>rebels take over, immediately disarm and disband their entire army for no fucking reason>empire 2: the sequel shows up a few decades later and takes over the galaxy in the space of an afternoonThe sequels are so fucking stupid.
>>219535059I'm sure there's something that says "oh he left to make his jedi academy super secret so that he wouldn't get found out by the empire" but then why would the new republic unilaterally disarm if there was any chance of the empire ever coming back?
>>219534746>death of the authorif you don't think it was the deliberate intention i can only infer you haven't much familiarity with rian johnson and his favor for 2012 'twitter humor' (fyad humor)
>>219535490>if you don't think it was the deliberate intentionIt pretty clearly wasn't. And such an interpretation has neither any equivalent in Johnson's other work, nor anything to do with "twitter humour".
>>219533794Source on that?
>>219532291His best friend NTR'd him and stole the woman of his dreams.
>>219535892>His best friend NTR'd himR2D2 fucked Leia?
>>219532832What does that mean? He's different in what way from other jedis and how was this made perceivable to the audience?
>>219535060He was obviously not comparable to TLJ Luke.
It's a stock archetype. I'm genuinely shocked so many people were brainwashed into thinking this was a genius subversion. The "old legend is now a bitter has-been, and is found by the young plucky protagonist, and they learn from each other," is cliched as fuck.
>>219535972He's not the "ideal" of a jedi as it is portrayed in any of the films.It's made quite obious by how he is portrayed as insecure, overly impulsive and driven by emotions in TESB, where a vision of his friends in danger promps him to abandon his training, against Yoda's and Obi-Wan's explicit warning of that being a trap. It's doubled down on in the finale of ROTJ, where he responds to Vader taunting him and treatening his sister by impulsively giving into the dark side and nearly killing Vader (who he'd come to redeem) when the later is defenseless on the floor, only snapping out of it in the last moment.Lucas would later add to that in the prequels, where you learn about the ideal code of the jedi and what kind of doctrin they are supposed to follow, even if you are given many examples of how many of them didn't adhere to those religiously.
Luke is a broken-down bum, a worthless stinking hobo just waiting to die. He's an alcoholic paedophile who reeks of shit and stale urine. He has betrayed the jedi and himself and must be eliminated.
>>219536310*DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING*
>>219536310>Luke is a broken-down bum, a worthless stinking hobo just waiting to die.>He's an alcoholic paedophile who reeks of shit and stale urine. He has betrayed the jedi and himself and must be eliminated.>posts a fuicking TORtanniclol
>>219536176In quite a few ways, he was.Just like TLJ's Luke, he blamed himself for enabling the villain's rise to power by failing a promising, if troubled, student.Just like TLJ's Luke, he didn't believe he'd be able to rectify that error.Just like TLJ's Luke, he reluctantly agreed to train another student.And just like TLJ's Luke, he was disappointed in said student's lack of understanding of his teachings.They're obviously not the exact same character and don't have the exact same background story. But they are similar enough for a comparison.
>>219536245millennials weren't ready to learn that bureaucratic governments with a monopoly on violence are never truly destroyed
>>219536310>must be eliminated.He must suffer first
>>219536372>Just like TLJ's Luke, he blamed himself for enabling the villain's rise to power by failing a promising, if troubled, student.[citation needed]
>>219535195>>219532291I like the idea of Luke becoming bitter and cynical, but it doesn't feel earned in TLJ because the movie refused to show us what happened in the 30 year gap between the OT and the sequels outside of a bunch of short rashomon scenes. Should've just begun the movie with a 30 minute flashback then ended it with a rashomon sequence of luke attempting to kill ben.
>>219536397I'm fine with Luke being brutally tortured
>>219536267And which literally shows that actual mastermind behind OT was different Lucas. Not the one ended up in charge of the whole IP
>>219536408>[citation needed]Did you even watch any of the films, anon?Granted, he never spells it out in the same way Obi-Wan does. But there is a very clear understanding of Yoda's regret of how Anakin's education went, particularly in episode 3.
>>219532291If they ever explained it, it was in something no one read or watchedIf I had to guess, based on the fact that he left his lightsaber in a fucking bar in the middle of nowhere, he didn't take to the postwar peace all that well. Remember, he's a war hero with zero skills beyond fighting and basic maintenance of farm equipmentSo he sets up a dojo because it's literally the only way he could support himself, and his version of the Cobra Kai ends up training the next space Hitler (this was revealed to him in a dream) so he goes to kill the kid in his sleep and realizes, quite rightly, that the force is full of shit if it's telling him to kill somebody because of something he hasn't done yetSo he fucks off to the middle of nowhere and brings a bunch of Jedi books with him because there's nothing to do out there but milk sea cows and watch dumb animals all day
>>219536452Not sure what your point is. That Lucas evolved as a person?
>>219536432Luke crept into Ben Solo's cabin one night to give him the bad touch. Unfortunately Ben woke up while Luke's fingers were up his asshole. Luke tried to murder him to keep him quiet but Ben got the better of him.
>>219532291Bad writing Men badThat weird animal milk messing with his guts
>>219536475Nta but I just reject your hypothesis.
>>219536535>Don't get between a dog and his meat.- Pedo Luke
>>219536509>That Lucas evolved as a person?Quite opposite. Just pointing out that unlike Prequels Original Trilogy was made by two Lucas.And that Mara Jade was coompletely fitting for the RotJ Luke.
>>219536675>My, what a big lightsaber you have Uncle Luke
>>219532291Rian Johnson is a faggot and should be hanging dead from a noose
>>219536756Nah he is unsung hero, who did the dirtiest job.
>>219536746MMM FRESH MEAT
>>219532291Because they wrote it that way.
>>219532291What do you think was JJ's original idea for the reason behind Luke's disappearance, assuming he had one?
>>219532291because he was a self insert by a bitter, self loathing plastic sack of diarrhoea.contrast that with his being originally the self insert for an empire building visionary who was a rebel outside of hollywood who had to develop everything himself while defending himself against a diseased tribe.
>>219537553>assuming he had one?He didn't, and he takes pride in not having ideas:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpjVgF5JDq8
>>219534746why do you write like a josh weedon character
>>219536267So it's just that he had an unconventional path to being a full fledged Jediâ„¢ then. Stay in Jedi school folks
>>219535239Luke was shown on a barren rock at the end of TFA, if he had started a secret jedi the ending scene of TFA would have been very different
>>219532291Imagine if some potato headed ꜱoy elemental forced you into walking up to your sleeping nephew and readying a weapon, then running away like a bitch to let other people die for you after he goes space columbine, culminating in an obnoxious Mary Sue using you as a stepping stone to look better and dying doing something a retard in a bathrobe did with literally no effort.You’d be pretty pissed too.
>>219537788>because he was a self insert Luke and Lucas? Are you hearing yourself!?
>>219532291
Luke was raped by First Order Stormtroopers
>>219538754Funny that you forgot what happened right before that picture on the top.And that the picture on the bottom didn't actually happen at all.
>>219532291He never met Mara Jade and thus became an incel. He would have banged his sister but Han called dibs.
>>219538793Had the most powerful Sith Lord in history taunt him as people died in the thousands just outside the window, then had his father threaten his sister with a fate worse than death? That’s where Luke’s threshold is, and he snapped out of it in less than a minute.A vision about a sleeping relative doesn’t sound remotely enough to make that man so much as raise an eyebrow, let alone a lightsaber, especially as he had both teaching and first hand experience of how unreliable visions are.
>>219538793>bottom picture didn't happenbut it did though
>>219538817>have literal mind control powers>inceljust jedi mind trick some cutie.He also definitely should have banged Rey, she was a fangirl and would have easily given it up
>>219538754>like my father before meyeah because anakin never tried to murder anyone on impulse?
>>219538948no, because all the bad things were done by Darth Vader. Anakin only did good things because he was a good friend.
>>219536310I just died from all this cringe
>>219538915Maybe his mental fortitude degraded with age, or does the Force prevent that? Chat are there Jedis with dementia?
>>219539003Obi-Wan paying him constant visits and telling him about good friends eroded his sanity
>>219536310Where does this Luke is a pedo meme come from?
>>219538915>A vision about a sleeping relativeIt wasn't "about a sleeping relative", it was about a future where said relative would endanger and kill his friends and family (the same family Vader once threatened, that much is said by Luke himself) and also millions of others. Yes, that's clearly above the threshold you described. And, guess what, this time he snapped out of it within a few seconds of just rising the saber, not igniting it, not bringing it down repeatedly in a blind rage. I'd call that progress.
>>219536897Kys faggot
>>219539100He saw a vision, while also looking at the sleeping relative it was about. The camera even lets you view him clearly focusing on him rather than being taken away fully.Try to blow it up as much as you like, the scenario is nowhere near what he faced on the Death Star and it’s inexcusable that he readied a weapon over it.
>>219538754>I am a jedi like my father>tries to kill a teenager withj light saberAll according to prequels.>>219538948I think you've missed that Luke already surpassed his father when he did two things:1) Told Obi-Wan to fuck off in RotJ2) Restrained himself from killing blow.Among all OT heroes Luke is literally the last person who would try to kill his own nephew for teh Greater Good.Also, it's still doesn't explain Adam Driver going becomming full Darth Tantrum Vaderboo.
>>219539160But anon think about it. Rian Johnson made sure that Sequel Trilogy will never become ogrannic part of the Star Wars. He made a fine borderline between before and after. Can you imagine if TLJ was more like Mandalorian or Ahsoka?
>>219539270>rather than being taken away fully.That's not how visions in Star Wars have ever been portrayed.>the scenario is nowhere near what he faced on the Death StarIn episode 7, we literally see a Death-Star type weapon blowing up multiple planets. If Luke saw that and that it related to his nephew, then that alone is as bad, if not worse, than anything that could have propted him to go all patricidal on Vader. Which, frankly, had only to do with Leia and not with anything other going on (which should have made Palpatine his main target).
>>219532291where's rian's trilogy btw? shouldn't it have been released already?
>>219539595It has been released. It's called Knives Out.Frankly, I hope he moves on from it soon though. As fun as those films are, they are a becoming a crutch to his creative potential, trapping him in one particular genre.
>>219532291because he is in a bad movie
Mark Hamill should've read the script first and then said that he refuses to play the part. What could they do if he said no? It's not like they would recast Luke Skywalker.
>>219532291I always took this scene as metaphor for Luke raping Ben Solo
>>219532291In a well writtem film Luke would have given up the Jedi way after having premonitions of Kylo betraying everyone, ignoring those premonitions, and then watching as Kylo turned to the dark side anyways. It'd be an interesting inversion of what Anakin experienced in ROTS while also actively challenging Luke's personal morality. It makes more sense Luke would give up on being a Jedi if his view of redemption was completely destroyed.
>>219539963>ignoring those premonitionsThe same people who cry about him trying to "murder" Kylo would have cried even more about that.
>>219532291He was sold into slavery.
>>219538793>Funny that you forgot what happened right before that picture on the top.Luke had the heroes journey. He failed, and he redeemed himself. Having him turn on Ben just like that invalidates the entire path Luke took to get there in the first place.
>>219532291Here's the thing, you could have a fallen Jedi arch for luke, but they didn't earn it. You can't just throw in a couple of short flashbacks and go "look look, this happened btw". There has to be an equal or greater buildup as to the path Luke took to becoming a Jedi in the first place.
>>219540296>the heroes journeyYou guys take this fucking template way too seriously. If you can really not develop a character past that path, have him have flaws and make mistakes anymore, then what are you even allowed to do? No, if you really want the "Hero's Journey" to be the be-all and end-all, you have to end it there and not bring the character back at all.
>>219540456>You guys take this fucking template way too seriously.If you create a character using that template you have to adhere to it going forward. You can't just rewrite the character midway or past it because it was modeled from it to begin with. I never claimed it was the only way to write a character, but if you disregard it completely for Luke you will end up breaking the continuity of the character, i.e. making a completely different character.
>>219540456>have him have flaws and make mistakes anymoreFlaws =/= turning 180 degree just because it's required for the further plot.
>>219540515>If you create a character using that template you have to adhere to it going forwardYeah. But that's the problem. Once you're done, there is no "forward". Luke has his call, loses his mentor and so on. But by episode 6 he's done with the whole program. What now? Kill the character off off-screen? Not ever even mention him again? Bring him back as a glorified cameo non-character that's just there as fan-service and has no purpose?I don't think any of those options are any more appealing than having him fall into old habits and try to get another character arc out of it, even if that means that you turn your hero into a regular human being.
>>219540604>What now?You cast him as he is, as they did in the games and the EU lore, as the mentor. At this point he has reached the same stage as Yoda or Qui-Gon. He is a mentor meant to teach the younger generation of Jedi. It would have been better if they almost cut him out entirely of this plot, only having him turn up to give guidance at pivotal moments.
>>219540648>this plotMeaning the reylo universe
>>219540561>turning 180 degreeThat's not really what happened though. What episode 8 did was to ask what kind of flaws he already had, and how those flaws could, if still present, lead to a new conflict.The alternative would be to make up new flaws out of nowhere. A bit how Back To The Future suddenly made Marty someone who can't turn down a challenge just to have a big payoff in the third film. That's always been a point of contention for that trilogy.
>>219540604>What now? Kill the character off off-screen? Not ever even mention him again? Bring him back as a glorified cameo non-character that's just there as fan-service and has no purpose?DO NOT plan your sequel trilogy as carbon copy of the Original Trilogy but with new protagonist which would require previous one to step aside for retarded reasons.DO NOT hire hacks for this jobDO NOT rely on cheap WOW-effect of Bigger Batman.
star wars is so fucking gay nowthanks rianthanks jjthanks kathleeeeenyou did it!
>>219540648>You cast him as he is, as they did in the games and the EU lore, as the mentor.Well, that's the "cameo non-character" option, and in my opinion the worst of all. Because it's a role that you could put anyone in, and you stop telling anything about the character himself.>At this point he has reached the same stage as Yoda or Qui-Gon.Yoda wasn't a perfect character when he first appeared. He actually had an arc from Empire to Return, and was shown to have been wrong about quite a few things. If anything, Obi-Wan was the static mentor figure, at least until the Vader reveal retroactively turned him into a liar.Qui-Gon is quite interesting, and probably the closest to a non-character. His main purpose as a character was to die to move prequel-Obi-Wan's development along.
>>219540707Okay. But you didn't answer the question of what to do with Luke after the Hero's Journey.If you keep him, you have to do something with him.If you don't, that's a bit of a continuity problem in itself.
>>219540674>That's not really what happened though.It is exactly what happenned, Luke.>What episode 8 did was to ask what kind of flaws he already had, and how those flaws could, if still present, lead to a new conflict.And among Luke's flaws kill-on-sight instinct was never presented. Even brooding sociopath and retard (aka PT Anakin) needed several series of nightmarish visions (first about his mother, than about Padme) and years of mistreatment by Jedi Order including his best friend and elder brother figure to finally turn his morale compase on killing spree mode.>The alternative would beActually putting efforts in planning and developing Sequel Trilogy, which would include working with source material, hiring competent writters, actors, costumers, operators etc.
>>219540804>what to do with Luke after the Hero's Journey.Literally anything. Just hire proper people with talant and competence.>If you don't, that's a bit of a continuity problem in itself.Make a fucking timeskip like Star Wars Legacy if you unsure.
>>219540906>And among Luke's flaws kill-on-sight instinct was never presented.Yes, it was. In fact, it was his major flaw in the OT.It was why he rushed towards Bespin in TESB, and it was why he almost killed Vader in ROTJ.>Actually putting efforts in planning and developingYou're evading the problem of what to do with Luke. Plan as much as you like. You will not find any development for a character that's "finished" unless you're willing to "unfinish" him in some way.
>>219540978>Literally anything.No, anon. Not literally anything. That's what we're discussing. What can you do with him that both has a purpose and doesn't in some way "invalidate" the Hero's Journey from before.>Make a fucking timeskip like Star Wars LegacyWell, yes, that's a possible solution. Then you not only won't have Luke, but none of the original characters. Though I'd love to know how the hardcore fans would have reacted to that announcement.
>>219541007>Yes, it was. In fact, it was his major flaw in the OT.But it wasn't.>It was why he rushed towards Bespin in TESB,No retards. He isn't flying to Bespin to kill Vader. His main motivation is to save his friends. He faces Vader and bracing himself for fight, but he never express cold blooded determenation to kill Vader at all cost here and now.>and it was why he almost killed Vader in ROTJ.He gives up to his anger in the climatic moment under heavy emotional weight of his own experience, Emperor revealing Endor was a trap for Rebel Alliance and his friends on the moon's surface and Vader learning about Leia. And even then he stops himself in the critical moment. At this very moment Luke's development into adult is complete. If you want to make Luke into something straight opposite, you better have a good plan of how to deliver this picture to the viewer. Does TLJ dilvers it? Absolutely no, Rian Johnson just suggest you to take it as axiom and purchase action figure of Rose Tico.>You're evading the problem of what to do with Luke.-> >>219540707>You will not find any development for a character that's "finished" unlessLuke isn't finished as characters. We aren't automatically dying when our bodies grows into adulthood.
>>219538432not really seeing as Luke actually succeeds because of his attachments to others so woud not preach to others about it and also has the hindsight to see how the Jedi Temple was actually wrong and not in balance with the force.
>>219532291at least that design is KINO, he could look really good in some medieval cape and sword flick.
>>219541084>No, anon. Not literally anything.Any creative idea can be executed well or poorly. It's hangs on writting, visual and sound design and proper directing and casting.>Well, yes, that's a possible solution. Then you not only won't have Luke, but none of the original characters.Okay and..? Oh right, no cheap nostalgia-bait.Also Force ghosts.
>>219541084>Though I'd love to know how the hardcore fans would have reacted to that announcement.Why bother with guessing if we already know it?
>>219541297>He isn't flying to Bespin to kill Vader.Killing isn't the main point. Being impulsive is.>He gives up to his anger in the climatic moment under heavy emotional weight of his own experienceYeah. Just like he does in episode 8. I.e.: The same exact flaw.>At this very moment Luke's development into adult is completeAnd that's exactly what we're talking about here: If you really think the character is "complete", then you cannot bring him back and have him have a character arc. Unless you allow him to have maintained his flaws.>want to make Luke into something straight oppositeAs I said, it's not the opposite, it's the same old flaws being brought back. The alternative is to not have any flaws (and no character arc), to have entirely new flaws out of nowhere (terrible idea) or to not have the character at all.> -> postNone of that has any concrete answer of what to do with Luke.>Luke isn't finished as characters. We aren't automatically dying when our bodies grows into adulthood.Characters being finished doesn't necessarily mean death. We're not talking about a real person, we're talking about a fictional entity who gets a full arc with a beginning and an end point. Luke had that in the original three films.
>>219541370>Any creative idea can be executed well or poorly.I disagree. Some ideas are inherently destined to fail.>Oh right, no cheap nostalgia-bait.Like I said, it is a solution. But you have to remember that fans demanded nostalgia-bait.>>219541536>if we already know it?That wasn't a mainline film made with the old actors still alive and available. Fan reactions to some side project won't ever be comparable.
>>219532866when you are 900 years old you get out of touch with sub 100 year old zoomers. You start missing the better times when you were only 100 years old.
>>219541545>Killing isn't the main point. Being impulsive is.Just because you quickly grab snacks in the store instead of carefully picking what you actually need it doesn't mean you are ready to kill a child after your meal.>Yeah. Just like he does in episode 8Unlike he does in episode 8.>If you really think the character is "complete", then you cannot bring him back and have him have a character arc.Pic strongly related.>As I said, it's not the opposite, it's the same old flaws being brought back.It's not the same flaw, because it's drops out of nowhere and exists only to justify Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver characters.>None of that has any concrete answer of what to do with Luke.Hey Rian, how about I recieve my first paycheck from Disney or you before I start making concrete advices on writting?>Luke had that in the original three films.And so..? Thesis please (c)
