>end Roman democracy forever>kill more people with proscriptions than Sulla and Marius put together>set Rome up for stagnation and collapse>get hailed as a hero and visionary for it
>>220526497Le ambition le faustian spirit le great men le alexander or something
>>220526497>end Roman democracy foreverThat was Julius Caesar. >kill more people with proscriptions than Sulla and Marius put together>get hailed as a hero and visionary for itEver wonder why? Because he inherited a Roman Republic absolutely GAPED by constant civil wars. He ended that and brought peace and stability for a 60+ year reign>stagnation and collapseHe lead the Roman Empire to it’s peak of expansion and power.
>>220526497Wow, very scathing, Cicero. Fall on the sword now, please.
but what about a good Solonius?
>[UNINTELLIGIBLE]
>>220526497and that teutoburg forest or whatever happened there
>>220526704Juno's cunt, you're a fucking faggot
>>220526497>Roman democracy2% of the population (wealthy male landowners) being eligible to vote is not a democracy.there were no real democracies in ancient times, only various forms of oligarchies
>>220526497>set Rome up for stagnation and collapseRome was already stagnant and on the brink of collapse. He reinvigorated it to last centuries longer.
>>220526753It was a republic
>>220526497meh, sulla practically invented proscriptions and cicero, while kind of justified during the cateline conspiracy, also had a very controversial and murderous tenure as consul.. octavian at least stabilized things for a while
If democracy is so great then why did it fail?
>>220526753Actually that is the only form of democracy that worksYou aren't actually supposed to let people who hate you have a say in how your country is run, no philosopher of political figure ever supported this because it's extremely stupid
>>220526891its become synonymous with capitalism that is boom and bust orientated.
>>220526497Rome reached the height of its power and prosperity under the Empire. Blame Marcus Aurelius for passing the purple to his dipshit son if you want to blame anyone.
>>220526579It was Cato who fell on his sword, Cicero was hunted down and killed by Antony's soldiers.
There's no point applying modern morality to ancient Romans. Pretty much every Roman politician was an absolute fucking monster by modern moral standards, absolutely terrible and irredeemable. But it's been 2000 years. All that really matters now is if they're entertaining to read about
>>220526891It needed a booming capitalist economy rather than a mercantilist one.
>>220527024That would never happen again though right?
>>220526891Roman generals began raising private armies that were primarily loyal to them personally before all else, within the broader context of the multi-centuries long ideological and political battle between Optimates and Populares.
>>220526497The lesson I took from this is that when you take power you have to kill fucking errybody who opposed you just in case
>>220526497>>set Rome up for stagnation and collapseAnother 500 and 1500 years of existence.
>>220527034>Marcus Aureliusalways made me laugh when he became a meme for stoicisms when his son is Commodus
>>220526891The Roman desire for expansion required reforms to the military to make it sustainable. The way this was implemented led to soldiers with greater loyalty to their general over the Republic. Combined with the Senate's own constantly growing problems, it was inevitable that the whole thing would implode.
>>220526497Caesarism was some spiritually Bolshevik shit. Honestly would not be surprised if the Jews were somehow involved.
>>220527103boom and bust? more like a cloud of prosperity that hangs over an area before moving on, the system keeps booming but the old area is now bust. see modern day britain vs 1800's or the US rust belt at its peak vs today. the powers at be keep pushing china to be the new boom but well its china and they keep chinking themselves
>>220527208Not really. The founding of the Roman republic has more similarities to Bolshevism than the death of it. The Tepiblic was born in a violent and bloody revolution against a monarch. The death of the republic and the rise of “Caesariam” is more analogous to the rise of Hitler, in that roman emperors cloaked themselves in the veneer of legality and democracy and rose to power, more or less, through the system. Although desu I think comparing Ancient Rome to either Nazi Germany or the Soviet union or to modern capitalism or capitalism etc… is all retarded and an exercise in stupidity.
>>220526497>set Rome up for stagnation and collapse>27 BC - 476 AD
>>220527326Wow I should have proofread that one
>>220527187How the fuck does that stop him being a stoic? I hate you normies so much
>>220527338>4761453*
>>220527375shut the fuck up, gre*k
>>220526753>the only people who matter being eligible to vote is not a democracyand that's a good thing. Why would you let some Campanian peasant vote? Or a hill-dwelling goat-loving Samnite?
>>220527349your children are the greatest litmus test for your personal philosophy.
>>220527495Your children inherit your genes, not your philosophy. Opinions and values aren't uniform
>>220527528your parents didn't raise you? you're just a blank slate straight out of your parents home into the world? you inherited none of their values?also rome was VERY family oriented, i dont mean family dinners and holiday get togethers but family LEGACY
>>220526497Roman "Democracy" was an oligarchy run by Patricians that did fucking everything they could to fuck the common people in the ass. Whenever a politician would make the slightest bit of progress towards quelling the massive societal issues they were having in the Late Republic, the Senate would just fucking murder the troublemaker and set everything back to normal. They 100% got what they deserved.
>>220527685You're a carbon copy of your parents, down to their memories and experiences? They were low IQ retards too?
>>220527723if stoic parents raise Commodus sons then the philosophy is worthless and Aurelius' LEGACY is dead, drowned in a bath tub. if you didnt gain anything from being raised by your parents then you're no better than a nameless orphan.
>>220527685>Why didn't Romulus and Remus act like savage animals if they were raised by wolves?
>>220526572>That was Julius CaesarCaesar was Dictator for life. Rome should have reverted to a republic upon his death. It only became an empire when Octavian/Augustus took over.
>>220527812like most noble families its the servants who do most of the child rearing.
>>220527823because wolves aren't savages, they're pack animals, silly baka.
>>220526753If you don't own land, I don't see why your opinion matters on how the state is run. Governing is about building a future. Without at least owning land and, you have no legacy. Add having a family as a voting requirement too.
>>220526891It's a long story.
>>220526497>>set Rome up for stagnation and collapse500 years later?
>>220527823Romulus literally murdered his brother over which hill they should settle on
>>220527877should have hired better servants. taken a more active role in his son's upbringing even if its just instructing those servants, for example Aristotle was the teacher of Alexander the Great, bet your ass it was alex's daddy who had some say in that. especially if there was any kind of plan for him to inherit the empire
>>220526497Roman republic was going to fall no matter what, it had reached a point where there were constant uprisings and political intrigue.Augustus brought unity and stability which saved Rome as a civilizationOtherwise the Republic was fated to self-destructionThe Roman optimates were corrupt power-hungry elites who ignored the issues they brought with their schemesSimiliar to the globalists of today
>>220527024
>>220526497Agrippa carried his ass.
>>220527528>Your children inherit your genes, not your philosophyFailing to pass down your values to your children is a failure of parenting
>>220527958Augustus was like Hitler - a master statesmenNot so good at the leading armies in battle thing
>>220526753Our democracy now isn't a democracy either
>>220527812You don't get to dictate how other people are going to be in the future, a stoic would understand thatAgain, did you parents chose you to be a faggot not understanding how humans work?
>>220527975>Augustus was like HitlerI like both of those guys too
>>220526497Giving one man too much power is a bad idea, you have competent ones but also disasters like Caligula, Nero, Commodus, Elagabalus.
>>220527208>Honestly would not be surprised if the Jews were somehow involved.can we please keep mention of jews and their one god to an appropriate minimum? thank you
>>220527962Do you behave exactly the same way as your own parents?
>>220526572It's interesting that perhaps the greatest reason that Augustus was able to create a sort of hereditary autocratic monarchy that was the Roman Emperorship was that he ruled long enough for it to seem natural to the people living near the end of his life.
>>220526560not faustian at all
>>220526753its still weird to me that americucks just started this democracy larp in like 2016? 2012? i mean my pozzed canuck hs history teacher was even telling us how stupid fske democracy was and we learned the us was a republic etc. then the iraq war or something happened and media gaslit npcs with democracy buzzword 24/7
>>220527898Exactly, if you hold no land you should be exempt from all taxes.
>>220528210>pozzed canuckopinion discarded
>>220528310No. You still benefit from the infrastructure and services the state provides and maintains. Obviously, you wouldn't pay property tax but you would pay every other tax.
>>220527812>if stoic parents raise Commodus sons then the philosophy is worthless and Aurelius' LEGACY is deadYou're an idiot. There are a million things your children could do and become that don't have to do with someone's "personal philosophy." e.g., you could be a reasonable, loving person, and your kids could turn out to be assholes. Basic stuff really.
>>220528316more of an observation and aneceote really
>>220528001>You don't get to dictate how other people are going to be in the future, a stoic would understand thatIt sounds like you just conceded that stoicism is a failed philosophy that can't survive for more than one generation since it doesn't provide security for the future>Again, did you parents chose you to be a faggot not understanding how humans work?Humans can literally only function as a species by passing on more than just their genetics to their offspring, anyone who doesn't learn mindset from what has proven to work fucking dies
>>220527962Probably, but that doesn't prove the other anon's point that Aurelius's philosophy is therefore irrelevant.
My personal philosophy? A more militant and brutal version of my father's philosophy, in keeping with the harsher and more ruthless times of today compared to the 1970s.
>>220526497>>set Rome up for stagnation and collapseChristianity destroyed rome
>>220526753If kids cant vote then it isnt a democracy either, is just a dictatorship of adults
>>220526497>set Rome up for stagnation and collapseAnd Rome subsequently collapsed in just 1500 years, practically overnight
>>220527375>>220527427>The Roman Empire was Greek for longer than it was LatinI guess Cicero and co were right in calling the Greek tutor-slaves subversiveskek
>>220527975Comparing Hitler to Augustus is an insult to Caesar. Hitler failed, utterly, in his conquest while Augustus laid the foundations for a Empire that ruled the world
>>220529121Obviously we're talking about the real Hitler, not the historikike version of Him.
>>220526497wtf you're talking about mystery meat nigga?most things that people like about rome happened during the empire daysthe colliseum for instance
Nice Tribune of the Plebs, would be a shame if someone proposed laws to the people and radically upset Roman society :)
>>220526753it's not a true democracy unlike underage, foreigners and smart animals like corvids can vote
>>220526497>set Rome up for stagnation and collapseLiterally began the Pax Romana but ok
No movie about one of the greatest Caesars to ever rule the Roman EmpireHmm I wonder why
>>220526891>if democracy is so great why did I abolish it?
>>220529637worst girl btw, probably in the history of anime
>>220526497>>220526560Samefag to continue thread (forgivable)The Graccii and other tribunes and anti-trubunes already sent the spinning plate out of control well before Caesar. Everything that happened at the time of the revolution was basically inevitable
>>220529717nah
>>220529166This so much this. The Fuhrer is still fighting the kikes from his base on the moon.
>>220527873maybe if the retards didn't kill him that would've happened
>>220526753i hate you retards like you wouldn't believesame people who think starship troopers is fascism
>end Roman democracy foreverRome never had a democracy, it had a republic>kill more people with proscriptions than Sulla and Marius put togetherh learned from Julius that the only alternative is getting shanked>set Rome up for stagnation and collapseRome literally lasted 500 more years and became one of the most successful empires in history>get hailed as a hero and visionary for itBecause he was, he kept Rome as a united empire that dominated the mediterranean world and beyond.
>>220526497he literally saved rome, it was on the brink of complete collapse and disappearing right then and there because the republic was wholly ill equipped to handle an empire and had been driving rome off a cliff for centuries before octavian rote the ship. Rome survived centuries longer then it had any business in doing.
>>220526497>>end Roman democracy forever>>get hailed as a hero and visionary for itgood. democracy is retarded.
who are you talking to
>>220526753>there were no real democracies in ancient timesactually there are no real democracies in modern timesancient times had real democracy in Greece and Rome has never been considered a democracy before modern "democracies" posthoc decided it was to validate their ruse.
>democracyYou retards are talking about Rome, not Athens. Rome was a republic, not a democracy.
>>220527873>>220530512It absolutely would have happened either way caeser was flirting with having himself crowned king, thats why he was killed.Him picking octavian as his heir wasn't willy nilly he was securing the succession.
>>220531079Athens at least had a direct democracy. We have nothing close to a direct democracy today, just "parliamentarism" which is a suggestion box for the elite, that empties into a trash can.
>>220527187Children are often never like their parents. Besides, Marcus had a bunch of kids (plagued wiped out pretty much everyone viable aside from Commodus, including a coheir) and was away on campaign all the time
>>220527495that's not how philosophy works anon. arguably, he was so stoic that he would give the throne to his son ultimately knowing his son was outside his control, that's as stoic as it gets
>>220530569>learned from Julius that the only alternative is getting shankedThis. Caesar was incredibly merciful towards his political enemies after the civil war because many were former friends and colleagues and he generally understood their motives. Moreover, he'd been scarred by the last round political purges that happened when he was younger, so he had no interest in reenacting that.Those men that he spared ended up stabbing him 23 times on sacred ground. Octavian and Antony learned something from that.
>>220531029>Republic which abused the plebs and replaced their wages with slaves.... is better than a Empire.... because it just is om
>>220526560Alexander was a cocksucking faggot
>>220528041Giving one man all the power is great. He does a bad job that's only one person you gotta assassinate.
>>220528471And that's where you and every landpwner will meet Mr. G.U Illitine.
>>220526497>end Roman democracy forever >Rome>democracykek
>>220526572>Ever wonder why? Because he inherited a Roman Republic absolutely GAPED by constant civil wars. He ended that and brought peace and stability for a 60+ year reignThis is the key point.Rome was sick to death of civil wars and they were growing more and more costly both in terms of lives and in terms of political upheaval. Their republic which was already a fucking huge empire would've never survived if they had continued down that path.Augustus was young enough and had enough vision to offer a long period of stability. The real unsung hero of history is Agrippa.
>>220526497The Republic was at best an oligarchy. Rome never had true democracy.
>>220531939Only retards who conflate republics and democracies think that Rome was ever a democracy. It never once claimed to be.
>go straight from Rome to I, Claudius >expected to believe it's the same guy You don't know suffering
>>220531951>It never once claimed to be.You sure about that? There's no point to a public assembly if you're not at least pretending. And Roman historical myth notably tries to say the their Republic (509 B.C.) and legislative assemblies just happens to have happened before Athen's democracy (507 B.C.). Despite early Roman history being shoddy and semi mythological, so such rigorous dating being suspect. In other words, it implies Roman historians like Livy would have been embarrassed if the Greeks beat them to democracy so they just claim the Romans did it first.
reminder Augustus collected dinosaur bones as a hobby. How can you not love him
>>220532351Given Augustus' career pre-and post civil war and the time skip between the shows, I could see why there's such a change in personalities.
>>220526712Wasn't his fault.
>>220527326>>220527340>Although desu I think comparing Ancient Rome to either Nazi Germany or the Soviet union or to modern capitalism or capitalism etc… is all retarded and an exercise in stupidity.You're right though.
>>220532657I think one of the principal modes of Roman culture is "we're not retarded fags like the greeks, who are intelligent and cool but have no mind for politics, so we do everything they did but better" rather than "we did it first"
>>220527208>Caesarism was some spiritually Bolshevik shit. Honestly would not be surprised if the Jews were somehow involved.Yeah, no. The Roman Empire invented the mystery cult called christianity to pacify the uppity jews, so nah anon.
>>220531832Nah. In the age of mass media you'll consume your slop and as long as sportsball and funkopops are still produced, people won't care.
>>220526497>What is Pax Romana?
>>220526497he just gobbled up a bunch of offices, he never even was declared/declared himself Dictator. Nor did Julius
>>220527375By 668 the ERE no longer existed and the Byzantine rump state was sitting where it used to be.But I agree people don't give the East enough credit for being the Roman Empire for another 150+ years.
>>220526640and what of bad solonius?
>>220533876BECAUSE YOU FALLEN IN LIFE WITH ALL THAT THINGS THAT DESTROY MENKNOW THAT AS THE YEARS DECLINE AND THE MEMORY STALES AND ALL OF YOUR GREAT VICTORIES FADE IT WILL ALWAYS BE REMEMBERED YOU LEFT YOUR KING IN ASIAAND I WILL GO ON TO ASIA....WITH MY ASIANS
>>220526497The Augustan constitutional settlement did not end Roman "democracy", if we can call the Roman oligarchy that.All it did was formalize power held by military strongmen throughout the entire late republican era.No one at the time thought of the republic as coming to an end. The "democratic" institutions continued to function.
>>220527012yep. this is the form of democracy i actually support. also back in those times you didn't have people constantly on screens, looking at blatant propaganda for half their waking lives.
>>220528471Your property increases in value because of people's labor and entrepreneurship, you parasitize on that.
>>220527873You understand that Augustus never claimed to be an emperor any more than Caesar did right? Neither of them abolished the senate, and Augustus in particular spent lots of time and energy pacifying the senatorial class. The Roman senate was never abolished. It existed continuously during and throughout the Roman Kingdom, the Roman Republic, and the Roman Empire, and even survived the fall of the western Roman Empire in both the East and the West. It literally survived The Fall of Western Rome in 476 and the dispossession of Romulus Augustus by the Ostrogoths. Oedecer, the ostrogothic barbarian general, even kept the Roman Senate around during his reign over the Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy, which proved fortuitous during the Justinian Restoration.Returning to Caesar and Augustus, the senate wouldn’t actually become powerless and decorative until the constitutional reforms of Emperor Diocletian. Which was the final death blow in a long line of legal maneuvering against them, the same legal maneuvering that gave the emperors their power. Another point to make is that one of the reasons Julius Caesar and Augustus/Octavian are considered the first and second Emperors is that they were keen on naming successors, and we certainly can’t pretend like Octavian came up with that idea. Octavian/Augustus very much inherited a mess that he cleaned up and inherited a title that already had near ultimate power
>>220527012>the only form of democracy that works is the one that isn't a democracy at allYou are severely retarded. Not only do you have embarrassingly bad opinions, you don't know how the roman republic functioned because the fictitious version of it your are lionizing is just that, entirely made up.
>>220526891It didn't, the Church is still vibrant
>>220527128Actually it all started when the optimates refused to accept the lex agraria that would dispense land away from extreme concentration by wealthy landholders and killed tiberius and gaius gracchus
Entering this thread for the first time. Current academia doesn't like using the term empire anymore as most of the territory of the "empire" was gained during the Republican era. They like calling it the Principate, which is a shit name desu.
>>220538173What? That's just fucking retarded. We call American an empire, and it was a fucking republic for all of its existence. What is this shit?
>>220538173The empire refers to the time period and behavior in the time not the geographical size of the holdings. Academicfags can fuck off
>>220538186America is not an empire though, what retard says that?
>>220537765He's right though, that's why you couldn't make an argument you low IQ retard
>>220538206Have you been paying any attention for the past ten years?
>>220538287You argue like a woman anon
>>220538318And you act like a faggot
>>220538371>>220538287Cry all you like bitch, America still isn't an empire
>>220526497you are just mad because he didn't let roman citizenship be prostituted.
>>220538115That’s not a point, it’s just you rephrasing a broad description into your own more narrow and pro-populare interpretation of that description.
>>220538379I wasn't saying it was. Only that other people have been saying it
>inb4 the douglas adams books are in the wrong orderI fixed that after last posting the picture
>>220538438(((Other People)))
>>220538473yes(((them))))
>>220530530>starship troopers is fascismThe filmmakers obviously meant the human world to be fascistic though.
>>220526497
