>billions of dollars and manhours are poured into games yearly>the most ambitious single player game of all time is still something Bethesda barely scrapped together 20 years agoWhat the actual fuck went wrong? Why can't anyone else make a huge and deep intricate fictional world and just let you get lost in it?
Because that's like a five year investment and Well shit I can't even make that argument anymore after fucking Concord.
>>688068810I don't know. Maybe modern companies are very bad at front loading and project management? Maybe people try to build a game with one certain feature they want to implement and have problems building a game around it.
>>688068810Morrowind is dogshit
>>688068810Why don't you do it? As long as you keep the poligon count and texture resolution of Morrowind, it should be doable in 1 or 2 years.
>>688068810because games are no longer made by a bunch of middle-aged autistic perfectionists with a passion for computers and game design.they are being made by zoomers who grew up in a cultural desert with no real life experiences being managed by "MBAs" and "Lean Project Managers" from Linkedin to maximize profit post-launch.Notice how we're still getting good games from Eastern Euros, Turks and Japs. It's just the West that is in a cultural and creative desert.
20 years ago>bunch of white nerdy guys combining their passion with worknow>500 niggers and pajeets who can barely read doing bare minimum for a project they don't care about or don't even understand, not to mention the women whose only purpose is to ensure there's nothing remotely sexy in the producthmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm what could be a the cause
>>688068810No one's really sure. There, that's the answer. I've been a game coder for years and can't tell you the amount of times I've heard this statement. The best guess I can come up with is that you need an all-male team for this type of project, and that's effectively illegal in the U.S. now.
>>688068810Morrowind isn't that ambitious, it was just written by adults that have read a book. Oblivion is more ambitious, it's just written to be aggressively dumb.
>>688069027Turd world hands typed this post
>>688069563Is there a single concept that Oblivion tries to meaningfully expand on except for graphics and voice acting? I'd also say ambition is relative, so getting Morrowind to work on 2002 hardware is to me way more ambitious than getting Oblivion on 2005 hardware, the latest TES and GTA (that no one considers retro) were also designed for that 2005 hardware so they could've pushed for even more with Oblivion.
>>688069965World interaction? The whole NPC schedules and everything.
>>688069668please saar do not shit on morrowind saar it's the only game that my shitty pc can handle saaar
>>688070126Oh yeah I always mentally fall back on E3 Radiant AI being a lie so I forgot there were actual improvements in the base game
>>688068810The dip in quality of the fun in games directly correlates with the increase of women in the industry.That's why you see that the most fun games released today are by 1 white/east asian man and his bros making a game
>>688068810>sword cuts right through rat>miss>miss>miss>miss>misswoah... so this is what 47yo boomers like...
>>688070126>>688070387If we are talking about npc scheduldes then Gothic is even more ambitious than both. And it also came out before both oblivion and morrowind
>>688070596are you properly imagining the scenario? the model limitations are there but you are swinging at a small creature that probably isn't trying to die. they are dodging. have you ever tried to kill a rat with a sword? because the idea is that you wont be good at that until you have practiced
>>688070583The combat is so shit it's unreal. This game came out only a few months after and had a much more satisfying combat gameplay. But well, we all know bethesda is always "make it big, no matter if it's just a massive pile of shit". For some reaso morrowind gets the pass here. I suppose people don't care how dogshit the gameplay is as long as it has text-text-text-text
>>688069965Consoles. You might not believe me, but Morrowind was a runaway success on the original Xbox. It was the most popular RPG on the platform and only lost to Halo on keeping it's place on top ten sales every month. Bethesda must've seen this and shifted all focus into grafics, voice acting and user friendliness for Oblivion, which has payed off for them until Starfield.
>>688069140>Notice how we're still getting good games from Eastern Euros, TurksShow me 10 example.
>>688071080Morrowind sucked ass on Xbox though.
>>688071391Mount and Blade Warband and Mount and Blade Bannerlord alone are worth more than anything a US Slop Factory produced since 2014.
>>688071893Name 1 good game from the US.Just 1.
>>688068810because the average person in general, let alone gamers, has become so fucking as stupid that they don't want complexity or nuance. They want the MC to be a 1:1 self insert of themselves having gone through similar fictional ordeals and they want the antagonist to be so comically evil that it's impossible to sympathize with them in any way.
I wonder why indie devs don't drop stuff like this today even with the "shitty" graphics. There's plenty of mechanics to add to them and make them thrive in this aspect.
>>688072310They do plenty of games with poor graphics, but making something on the scale of Morrowind is a lot of busywork; creating a map, dungeons, characters, dialogue, quests, items... It's hard to do big quantities of handcrafted content as an indie
>>688072310Because it's still technically complex to do even discounting graphics.Dread Delusion is the closest, and it's still no where near the complexity of Morrowind.
>>688068810If you want to know the reason why modern games suck balls in general here it is:It's graphics.Every single issue with modern games is tied with graphics, spending endless cash on making super detailed models, spending valuable time in making sure the animations are pin point perfect and spending untold effort into realism.The biggest classics often have a thing in common: they generally look like ass.Morrowind, New Vegas, Terraria, Undertale, Minecraft, Stardew Valley... all the shit that most people like (and that /v/ loves/used to love) generally speaking has pretty shitty fucking graphics.Why are they classics then?Why are they loved?Because the GAMEPLAY is fun, because people just made art a secondary thing to the gameplay, to the atmosphere, to the actual important parts of the game.Take Team Fortress 2, putting hats aside, TF2 is a fairly mediocre looking game, though the style choice for the mercenaries is nice overall the quality is not that realistic: it is cartoonish, it isn't detailed... it's serviceable, yet the game itself has survived decades upon decades.Let's take a look at another... Risk of Rain!First game was pixel stuff, wasn't that detailed, frankly was choppy here and there... still a beautiful game, loved by many.Too much time is wasted into graphics: the more "amazing" something looks, the less fun it is by virtue of funds being allocated to it looking good rather than it being good.
>>688072116I really enjoyed Civ 6 (which is why I specified 2014 as the last year any good game came out from the US).
>>688068810There is no monetization, shareholders want cash cows that sell mtx forever.
>>688072480>Dread Delusion is the closestNo it fucking isn't, jesus christ stop it with this meme. Just because it has mushrooms in an open world doesn't mean it's like Morrowind. I even like the game but calling it a Morrowind like game is flat out wrong.
>>688072619Alright pal, you post an indie open world rpg released anytime recently.
>>688068810We live in a disgenic society fraught with low iq half breeds that have been positions of authority way above their pay grade. This has produced a low class culture, with low class art, poorly written narratives, and enforced homosexuality to promote even more dyslexic breeding. We are living in a post- enlightenment era where all the principles that got us here are slowly being turned upside down by dei initiatives in order so that the rich can gentrify the world, maintain their authority, and create a permanent underclass of inbred brown retards. Tl;dr everything you love is being tainted by the gay
>>688072503ThisFuck ur 7 year dev cycles
>>688069965Persuasion was kinda neat and so was the spellmaking. Skyrim butchered spells
>>688072431I have a feeling that for indies graphics is an enormous bottleneck especially given the difficulty they face when creating assets, but yeah, I guess you can't discard the dimension of something like Morrowind worldbuilding-wise.>>688072480>Dread DelusionInteresting. Really cheap too. I'll check it out.
>>688072712There's more to Morrowind than just open world RPG. There's a level of world interaction, breadth of locations and content and itemization that Dread Delusion doesn't have because that's not what it's going for because it's not trying to be a Morrowind clone.
>>688068810Incels hate gaming and graphics, so they say "old thing good, new thing bad" to gaslight game devs.
>>688072503Are you saying Oblivion has fun gameplay?
>>688072503This so fucking much.Skyrim SE, GTA San Andreas, FarCry 3 are the highest graphics fidelity you will ever really need to make a good game with awesome gameplay and great narrative and art. Anything higher than that is unnecessary.TES 3 to TES 4 = 5 year cycleTES 4 to TES 5 = 5 year cycleTES 5 to TES 6 = 15 years and still counting ???
>>688073019Kinda?
>>688072878Yes, and that's what I said. Dread Delusion is no where near as complex as Morrowind. They still share a similarity in being an open world rpg in an original setting.
>>688073151I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disagree with that
What are the best QoL mods for this, including combat?I like jank I like exploring I also hate trash combat and Im busy as fuck so Id like it a bit streamlined
>>688068810>Why can't anyone else make a huge and deep intricate fictional worldQuite an investment for something people don't even appreciate.Anyone ever thought how much work it meant to simply allow a player to enter houses?
>>688070834Arx Fatalis is basically Ultima Underworld meets Morrowind, but on a smaller scale. Such a great game.
>>688073019Better than skyrim yeah
>>688068810>huge and deep intricate fictional worldThat's has nothing to do with any Bethesda game
>>688072503it's because your average person has no idea how long assets take to create. for example, assassin's creed valhalla was developed by almost 6000 people across 15 internal studios. those are absolutely insane numbers.
>>688073470>le contrarionSkyrim gameplay is objectively better than Oblivion's. Oblivion's world building and quests are much better but seriously the gameplay? Do you remember the arena at higher difficulty? Do you remember how shit archery and magic were? No shield bashing?
>>688072310Why would they show any effort when they can make a shitty 2D platformer and print money?
>>688073334Basically any of the MWSE mods made in the last three years
>>688073648>Skyrim gameplay is objectively better than Oblivion'sno
>>688072503A bunch of these games were considered good to decent looking at the time of release, Morrowind too even.The issue is that as graphical fidelity has increased so has the amount of manpower needed to create those assets and the content therein.
>>688073648>how shit archery and magic were?Touch spells is the only thing I miss from Oblivion. Required less magicka but more skill at melee range, a fun trade-off.Otherwise Skyrim is generally better at everything.
>>688073848And it increased exponentially, contrary to other aspects of game development which feels to me that either got somewhat easier or sophistication to implement stayed linear.
This question is coming up more and more, and even game industry workers think it's a mystery. I've seen posts like this before >>688069436My guess:Morrowind is a low fidelity game in that it has less details in the simulation of the physical world compared to modern games.It has simpler graphics, so models, textures, fewer environmental details, simpler post processing, simpler effects. It has simpler animations, basically no physics, even the AI is simpler.So creating a low fidelity world would be easier than a high fidelity one, everyone could guess that. But I think the reason we don't see more games like this is because there's no economy of scale of game developers to create this level of fidelity anymore.For instance, every kind of game artist is trained, expecting and used to making assets for a graphically realistic game. So when you try to get them to do something simpler it's like asking a modern construction worker to just use hand tools to make a smaller house: it's not actually going to be cheaper, it's actually going to be more time consuming and thus expensive.But this phenomenon of developers being suited to developer higher fidelity games would apply to lots of areas, not just graphics.I'm not sure if I have to point out the obvious, that as modern games have gotten better at simulating realism via graphics and physics developers have stopped bothering with the other games features they used to have to rely on like writing or interesting systems.
>>688074091I mean even graphical stuff got easier with things like substance painter and shit. But it's still like you said exponentially more than every other aspect.And yet I've never finished a game that I enjoyed and said "Man that game was really good because of the graphics"
>>688073019Oblivion has a way more fun gameplay than Morrowind just for the fact it has way more advanced psychs for the objects and ragdolls for the npcs, their reactions to you attacking them are better and so is their AI + it is goofy as fuck. If you really want to HAVE FUN it is a game where you can have a lot of fun. (the problem is that most nerdy ugly virgins think "fun" is reading 800 pages of lore "based on real life religion and philosophy" or some shit instead of actually playing a vidyagame)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0naPAk_M240
The guys at SureAI managed to make Nehrim and Enderal as very small teams. Sure they used a lot of bethesda assets but they crafted an entire world with 100hrs worth of content managed to hack in an actual leveling system in skyrim on top of a lot of other mechanics.I'm not sure what you'd need now to get a similar project going. The problem with open-projects like these is that you can lose your core artists for random reasons like petty dramas or people losing interest. And with more and more egomaniac trannies infiltrating project nowdays it seems even worse than in the 2000s.
>>688074243>"Man that game was really good because of the graphics"It's funny to read that because Death Stranding popped into my mind as an counter-example as I read your post, but if you remove the gear autism in it you wouldn't have shit to show lol
>>688073648Magic was much better I'm oblivion because you could cast with weapons drawn and didn't need to swap. Not even mods could fix skyrims shit magic casting system. Oblivion on the other hand had casting macros and hockey's you could set up that would act as a switch AND cast button all in one. There was so much less mending in oblivion compared to skyrim its unbelievable. That and the dogshit locked-in sprint animation that prevented all other actions ruined fucking skyrim. Feels like shit to play even now
>>688074380It's a lot easier to make a mod than a full game like that. Asset creation, tool creation, everything for animations, a front end scripting language. All of that was done for them already.
>>688074354Who cares if it's better than morrowind? Anything is better than morrowind gameplay, it's the absolute bottom of the barrel.
>>688074687>hockeysHotkeys >mendingMenuingFucking autocorrect
>>688074687>cast with weapons drawnSpellsword is the stealth archer of Oblivion
>>688074729You're specifically mentioning oblivion instead of referring to also the rest of the series. So I supposed you were comparing the actual gameplay of both
because writers can't fucking write
>>688074354>has way more advanced psychsEnemies blown the fuck out by fireballs really elevates it.Or paralyzed enemies rolling down a hill.
>>688074380It is so incredibly easier to make a glorified mod, you have the assets, engine everything but conceptually you also understand what the game could be and therefore what your mod should be from the outset.So even writing a mod's story is easier.
>>688074687Idk I really like the sprint power attacks in skyrim Also a lot more animations for different weapon types. archery in skyrim is fantastic. shouts, ragdoll physics, blocking are all fantastic.the problem with skyrim is it's a shit RPG and you cant roleplay for shit (everything is shallow and linear). But combat is fun.
>>688071779Disagree. I didn't have a PC, consoles were all I had at the time and Morrowind on Xbox is what really ensured I would remain a gamer for the rest of my life. It's what directly led to me eventually getting a PC for Skyrim.
>>688074894Full mages are the stealth archer of morrowind. And the warriors of morrowind. And the thieves of morrowind. Because yeah, mages in the game can be better at everything. Even do better than the original class they're trying to imitate, despite that class supposedly being specialized on that.
>>688075275Yeah, Skyrim is the only one where I felt like playing pure warrior, no magic.
>>688075039>It is so incredibly easier to make a glorified modAbsolutely true. I'd go as far to say that ANYONE here on this thread could do it. And Ibdoubt anyone here could make their own game lol
>>688068965can't claim to speak for the entire industry but Bioware, Blizzard, and Creative Assembly in particular have been absolutely fucking hobbled by retarded management, both direct hands on project management and corporate level retardationthey have all had tons of very real problems on the actual creative direction side as well but they have all suffered from crippling production problems, wishy-washy insecure direction on projects, rolling technical debt, waves of layoffs, senior level staff leaving because the work environment is dogshit, sales and marketing people have direct involvement in game design decisions
>>688075716I mean our resident morrowfag did both.
>>688076094Who?
>>688076159trainwiz
>>688076182What game did he make?
>>688076241Underspace
>>688074354>Oblivion is better than Morrowind because it has a physics systems and your attacks connect despite having all the impact of a flailing noodleGameplay-over-everything fags have lost their fucking minds.
>>688075716Making a big mod is still hard because it's still a time commitment. Sure the majority of the internal work is done for you but making all that content is what will also be the thing that takes a bunch of time.
>>688076459>still hard because it's still a time commitmentDoesn't sound hard. Imagine if you had to invest time AND.. basically everything else.
>have only white people in the dev team>make kino gamesIt's as simple as that
>>688076459bullshit, the Tamriel Rebuild guys are pumping big content for years
>>688076828Yeah, for 20 years.
>>688076828And I'm going to be dead and buried before they ever start working on Mournhold.
>>688068810Morrowind is even getting expanded upon, by modders. Theoretically before it even came out. 22 years later we will get our first Cyrodilic release.Also the mod is being worked on by people like the old guard, white and asian males, just that some of them want to larp as women lmao. But theyre still austists.
>>688076958There's enough content there that it doesn't really matter now.
RDR2 has a much better world and exploration, not sure why nobody is able to make fictional worlds the same way.
>>688074151Excellent analysis and plausible explanation.
>>688077227I haven't even done everything in base Morrowind yet.
>>688077273Rdr2 is bland as fuck in comparison. Its a better frontier/cowboy larp, and that only to a degree sadly.
>>688077361TR's got a shitload of stuff to do, even just around the newer areas.
>>688077273Rockstar has unlimited money, an eye for detail, and are ambitious.A company like Bethesda lost all ambition when they realized people would buy their shit regardless. Well, until they plopped out Starfield and found out the well of goodwill had run dry.
>>688077294He is wrong since Morrowind was a big budget multiplatform game back then, literally the only good thing about the water was and still is the water shader.
No other game apart from skyrim comes close to the comfyness and immersion of morrowind.
>>688077825>apart from skyrim
>>688077825>modslol
>>688077891Skyrim was better with camping mods and just bullshitting around, one of the best sandbox games so far. The story, lore and quests were dogshit in comparison to morrowind.
>>688077825I always drop a (you) for decent bait. Enjoy it my main man
>>688070834Arx fatalis isnt an rpg but an action game so they are vastly different genres with different goals in mind
>>688078148Morrowind isn't an RPG since there is no roleplaying, it is an action game with stats that has very crappy action mechanics.
>>688078148It is as rpg as any Dark Souls/King's Field is
>>688072310Low IQ probablySome literal nobodies took the Gothic 2 engine and made their own game that would have been a massive hit in 2000 and then just gave the game away for free.People could absolutely take these old engines and just make their own games just like Obsidian made the tranny game New Vegas
>>688078227Lol be quiet
Something else about Morrowind, the creators had a much deeper well of inspiration than newer devs. Not to say the media they drew from disappeared but that generation of game developers were huge nerds and had much broader interests outside of only being in it for the money.I had an epiphany talking to a friend about Morrowind when I realized the whole concept and execution of the Nerevarine is literally just Dune. I'm not saying it was a bad thing, just that that was the type of media developers were pulling ideas from as opposed to something like Concord where everything was ripped from Marvel movies.
>>688078148>Arx fatalis isnt an rpg but an action game
>>688072503Subhuman retard take from a tranime zoomer. Idiots who don't comprehend that these old games had cutting edge graphics and more effort was put into the graphics than today. It was harder to get any game to run as hardware got outdated every month. Meanwhile today you just take your Unreal engine and there you go, cutting edge graphics that will run on all hardware.Idiot lumps cutting edge graphics in the same list as 2D pixel art games and even Minecraft. Minecraft looks the way it does because it's a voxel game and at launch it was very hard to run without a very tiny draw distance. Minecraft looks like it does because this is the best it could have looked without your PC melting. Completely ignoring that these devs made their engines and cutting edge graphics from scratch.
>>688078786Literally all wrong
wait, tamriel rebuilt is supposed to mod in the whole island not just morrowind mainland?
>>688072859>Persuasion was kinda neat and so was the spellmakingBoth were done way better in Morrowind. Also Skyrim didn't butcher the spells, Oblivion did. Skyrim removed spellmaking and cut the spell count a tiny bit, but it made every spell behave differently to make up for it. That's nothing compared to how many cool spell effects were simply gutted in Oblivion.
>>688079718No, that's other mods that do that but they all share resources and coordinate.
>>688078593I think it also has to do with the quality and "level" of the inspiration, media inspired by popular media which in turn was also inspired by popular media etc starts to feel like formless sludge very soon, Morrowind instead draws from things much closer to real life like real life religion and folklore which makes it feel like a unique living universe full of stuff to discover instead of a broken copy of stuff you've seen a million times before
>>688070834>Arx Fatalis>satisfying combatHahaha... You guys are really funny, you know that?
>>688079718Tamriel rebuilt is for mainland morrowind, Project tamriel for all the other provinces.
>>688081079ur mum built me cock
>>688081079Any big project to revamp vvardenfell? Mostly on the graphics side
>>688068810you need to play more games
>>688081616Morrowind Rebirth.
>>688080329It is satisfying because there's weight in your hits. The combat is slower for both your enemies and you. You have to walk forward and backwards when your enemies are about to hit. It kinda feels like an older version of Kingdom Come combat.Meanwhile, morrowind is a completely retarded click spam which feels even shittier when not you nor your enemy can connect a hit 60% of the time early in the gameI'm not saying AF has a super impressive combat for today standards. But it is millions better than whatever the fuck the MW devs were trying to do with that dogshit hybrid of RtWP isometric systems in a game that is 1st person and clearly action-oriented
>>688081959>completely retarded click spamYou didn't play the game lmao. Morrowind forces you to hold attacks just like AF only it doesn't take 30 seconds per hit. Also unlike AF you can't just kite the braindead AI over and over so your stats actually matter.
>>688081959>Hit Rate>(Weapon Skill + (Agility / 5) + (Luck / 10)) * (0.75 + (0.5 * (Current Fatigue / Maximum Fatigue))) + Fortify Attack MagnitudeThe only way for you to not hit 60% of the time, even early game, is to be a drooling nigger.
>>688082532I finished the entire game full sidequests + both expansions in May you retarded nigger. This is a random screenshot from when I finished Bloodmoon. It doesn't matter if you have to hold for a fucking second, it still a retarded spam of the same action
>>688068810>And almost all of that time is spent trying to get it to run on an 11 year old console Many such cases
>>688081959>in a game that is 1st person and clearly action-oriented>Hurrrrr, it first person that mean it action game durrrrrrr
>>688072503Wtf are you talking about stardew valley has bad graphics? The graphics are a large part of why that game is popular
>>688083304It is an action combat you idiot. You decide how much you want to hit and when to hit. You don't have "turns" or an attached stat that modifies "attack speed" like in RtWP. The input you have to do is no different from any shooter where you use a knife.
>>688077825Oblivion is far more immersivr than skyrim. Better music score, more kino voice acting, story isn't gay white man bad bullshit
>>688077607Rockstar is 5x the size of Bethesda.
>>688079780You couldn't even use magic in skyrim without constantly entering a fucking menu and swapping out your weapons. It was fucking trash
>>688083594The gameplay of Morrowind literally doesn't matter, it's not an action game. Comparing AF and Morrowind is a false equivalency at best and disingenuous at worst. AF is an action oriented imsim, Morrowind is a first person CRPG.It's like comparing Red Dead Redemption and Oblivion because they both have horses in them.
>>688083546stardew valley has a good art style. it doesn't have high-tech high fidelity graphics.
>>688071893HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
For those dishing on Morrowind : Bethesda was too lazy to include dodge animations.The game is about your character's skill not your mouse & keyboard abilities . So yes your attacks will miss and your spells will fail.
>>688072310There are, they just do it for free and it goes underappreciated for some reason. Look at Tamriel Rebuilt and Nehrim/Enderal
>>688084594I'm comparing the combat. I'm not gonna enter the retarded discussion "this game is crpg, this one is not". Both are rpg and both have action combat. Having random shit depending on your stats don't make a game be a "typical" isometric rpg like you're trying to make it seem. By that logic we could say gothic doesn't have action combat either since you only do the maximum damage when hitting if the randomness of the dice roll gives you a good number.I don't know what kind of logic are you using for deluding yourself to think a game where there are no turns, neither a stat that decides how often your character can make an attack is not an action game. Do you really genuinely think morrowind combat is more similar to Fallout or BG over something like Diablo?
>>688087710>Do you really genuinely think morrowind combat is more similar to Fallout or BG over something like Diablo?Yeah actually, as a result of the dice roll focused combat.>Muh GothicI assumed you were some sort of Eastern Euroid because of the broken English and hatred of Morrowind but this cements it.
Morrowind is a game that depends entirely on its content rather than its systems for appeal, what that means is that you can't outsource it to southeast asia for pennies and instead have to write multiple books worth of compelling story, dialogue, lore, in-game books etc, a task that is far beyond any current game production or indie dev
>>688089385>Yeah actually, as a result of the dice roll focused combatDiablo has dice rolls retard. You literally miss constantly to hit in the first levels in the same way happens in morrowind. I honestly really think you haven't play shit. You're just a morrowfaggot who has 0 idea about rpgs
>>688090069And Diablo has 4 stats, Ivan.Shut the fuck up and go back to Piranha Bytes slop and let the humans talk about real video games.
>>688091503>comparing to the newest entry instead of Diablo 2 from around the same era as mwjust concede already dude, you have no idea about anything
>>688068810Literally every Bethesda game is ambitious often in spite of their fans' feedback. If you listen to what Morrowind fans actually want, they basically want Bethesda to stop chasing new gameplay systems and scope creep and instead commit to iteratively refining on Morrowind's feature set. They basically discount everything the later games added like>item physics>livelier NPCs and radiant AI>horse mounts>larger procedural world spaces>hiring a level design team>more intricate combat action>Bioshock hand system>random events and radiant quests>crafting systems>settlement system>modular weapons>more elaborate enemy design/AI >dynamic world behavior, e.g. dragons and BoS raids>online multiplayer>customizable space ships>mobile POIs>more elaborate wildlife behavior>land vehiclesGamers give shit feedback. They continually ask for bigger, more ambitious games and the devs give it to them; but it isn't ambitious in quite the ways they had imagined. But rather than simply saying "Ah geez guys, I was hoping you'd do X instead of Y or develop Z a little more" they throw a tantrum and insist the game is "worse in every way" or spout some vague nonsense like "soulless". The developers who spent an assload on staffing and engineering to get every new feature working decide these fans are impossible to please and just go full damage control; shutting fans off from direct communication entirely and assigning a community manager to babysit and mitigate negativity.
>>688093079Starfield's problem was >>688089912 rather than gameplay/systems, if it was an actually interesting IP and story with memorable characters and aesthetics people would've loved it
>>688070834Filtered
>>688072503
>>688068810>what if an rpg but its antifun to play and its only merit is how you can crack the game wide open with easily exploitable systemsBravo Todd! more brown slop for me!!!!
>>688091883Yeah, Diablo 2.The game with 4 stats, dipshit.
>>688093620That's basically asking for the opposite of ambition. Writing is literally the easiest part of game development. It only gets hard as the dev tools you need to use to implement stuff get more complicated.
>>688095824Starfield can't be considered ambitious in a genre where Scam Citizen, No Man's Scam, Elite Dangerous etc exist, especially with its comical handling of the space parts. If 10 of the 1000 planets were as populated with interesting cities, towns, quests, characters on the level of Morrowind, it could be considered an ambitious game. >Writing is literally the easiest part of game development.Funny how every single developer in the last 20 years is fumbling this easiest part so badly.
>>688096130Starfield can't be considered ambitious in a genre of tech demos with no content exist?>Funny how every single developer in the last 20 years is fumbling this easiest part so badly.Because gamer feedback is just shit so the devs shut them out entirely.
>>688096130Im still convinced Starfield isnt 1/10th of what they set out to do. Like, Bethesda surely wanted a full traversable planet with radiant quests and locations and dungeons but didnt have the talent. They clearly wanted to build a system with the main story that was woven in and out between handmade sections and radiant sections that were "so good you couldnt even tell" but they also lacked the talent, so instead we got Starfield
>>688068810constraints of money. they decided for the subsequent games that they needed the player to be able to complete entire quests in under an hour so they could reach as wide an audience as possible, so the 9-5 workers, as well. also, why do I keep losing AI companions in this game? every time i set off somewhere with one to complete a quest, i turn around and they're not there, if i ever happen to want to get off the beaten track and take a shortcut over a steep hill.
>>688096379Yes, we have three games with no content, but Starfield's ambition is the smallest of the three, if each magically got their full potential fulfilled, Starfield would be the least impressive because it didn't aim as high.
>>688070834>cant even cast spells without your mouse input disappearing unless you install a mod, breaking the whole gameYeah great combat right there...
Play tamriel rebuilt
>>688096552I think you're being crazy generous to NMS and Elite. They straight up don't have the tool set to do real quest design, it's not just a lack of labor. They don't have the combat and animation systems to support it.
>>688070834Why didn't we get another cool underground game already?
>>688068810>most ambitious single player game of all time???
>>688069027i think both games are great thoughever
I finally played Morrowind for the first time in VR.
>>688079780Persuasion sucks in both. In Morrowind it is a chore and in Oblivion it looks hilarious.
>>688073648then why did i stop playing skyrim right after the intro segment? its boring as shit, oblivion is way more engaging
>>688098050It's a chore if you don't build for it, as it should be. Persuasion in Morrowind gives you so many more options compared to Oblivion.
>>688098623It is pretty badly designed in terms of being actually fun. Like a lot of Morrowind ;^)
>>688077574nigga thats ba sing se
>>688077574>>688100142wait no its mournhold, im so sorry anon please forgive me please
>Redguards have low intelligenceWhat did Todd mean by this?
>>688070583learn to build a class, and not be out of stamina, zoomiezoom
>>688100353I can't, sorry.
>made with a shoestring budget and some nerds in a basement>still one of my favourite games and nothing comes closehow?
>>688101138Too bad all their interesting shit is being sanded down.
>>688101345desu i would probably lose passion as well when i do it for free for 10 years+
>>688101345I get redoing that area to be like, actually unique concept wise.But god the inn just looks so much worse and it's all so much less detailed.
>>688069027Motherfucker i was expecting the combat footageHow am i supposed to agree with this now
>>688101612The old area was apparently too detailed.
>>688071391stalker SoC & CoP, thats 2 right there
What kills me is there's no mechanism or what have you to license or farm out 'game worlds' to other smaller studios to set their own game in. For example Cyberpunk's game world. It took hundreds of millions of dollars to make it, it's really incredible from a technical perspective. But it gets used for the Keanu Reeves story and then that's it. If smaller teams could license that whole ready made map and then just make a new story or events within it players/customers could enjoy seeing games of that magnitude but much more often like how amazing games used to get released 4-5 times a year every year from the mid 90s up until the mid 2010s when these game budgets and whatnot spiraled out of control.
>>688101345such is the fate of these "Conversion mods" They get humbled by the sheer scale. How many Fallout 1 in fallout 4 projects we've had? Or Van Buren rebuilt or the unending shitshow of F4NV. The only one that i remember beeing actually finished was F4 Point Lookout (which is a better approach in my opinion smaller scale and you test the waters)
>>688076771starfield was liquid ass though
>>688101983you got filtered
>>688068810cos modern gamedev is overtaken by leftists and leftists dont want to make>morrowind but betterthey want to make>morrowing but with niggers and so badly optimized that you have to buy next gen hardware for promoting which they were paidjust look at slopfield
>>688102167Starfield is a kino game with SOUL, sorry your DEI wokeslop all flopped.
>>688101742>this was too perfect!Shut up
>>688094804it's really beautiful
>>688093880?pbp and /thread
>>688078786you completely misunderstand. we're not talking about the engine we're talking about the assets. there are a hundred times more and each is a hundred times more complicated. and then because the assets are so good looking they have to be placed perfectly within the game world because any misalignment looks wrong due to the high detail. This creates a drag on everything. Because your graphics are too good now you need a plan to place blades of grass because you can't do meadows otherwise, and you need the trees to dynamically interact with that grass during placement. trees can't be identical because that would stick out and look wrong.the response then is, surely there are libraries that can handle some of this. but then you can't be ambitious because you're stuck using solutions that already exist making it conform to landscapes and scenarios that you've already seen. as game physics get more detailed you have to make more and more detailed models for how your imagination is implemented in reality which makes you stay closer to reality.
>>688102240if it is so good then why it is so dead?
>>688102609Are you a game dev? This is the most informed and reasonable take I’ve seen on this board. You explain well what a lot of us feel.
>>688069140>they are being made by zoomersstopped reading here. shove your generation wars up your fat arse.
>developers spend over a decade creating an entire galaxy with its own lore and handcrafted locations you can fly to without any loading screens>/v/ complains that it's taking too long to complete
>>688102609
>>688102085you have brown hands
>>688102996I prefer underspace
>>688103047This just sounds like a tree version of "the door problem"
>>688101880Witcher 1 had a quest creation contest and they put the winners in the game and voiced some of them. They should do this again, as should other devs. They weren't publicly traded back then, though.
>>688102781just a normal programmer, game dev looks like too much work
>>688103181Yeah but it's an actual indie dev recounting the shit they had to figure out to implement trees in their (basically) low poly 3D game
>>688103240Close enough desu. Wish we had more in depth discussion on this board.
>>688103271Yeah but indie devs can at least ignore that shit now.Fuck I wonder if people will make games with the OpenMW engine.
>>688095824>Writing is literally the easiest part of game developmentlol
>>688068906You don't even need to mention concord when Starfield exists for a more apt comparison of wasted time
>>6881013452011 > 2023 >>> 2004 I do agree that the latest one fits right into base game though.
>>688103047>>688103271What the... I'm making foliage for my own (and of my fellow colleague coder guy) wannabe not-Fallout game and the process I used for making trees was nowhere near as complicated. Am I missing something? I have yet to learn LODs (yet to implement those in-game I mean, only modeled my foliage so far) but aren't they basically the same model but with decimated vertex count? For which there is a handy Modifier to do just that on the fly.Also, "double sided shader", why don't you just duplicate your faces and invert said dupes instead? Meaning the planes of your foliage model share the exact same position but thanks to Backface Culling only the front facing plane currently in your view will be visible anyway. It's some real plug and play stuff, I've tried it with other models before, they were fully implemented in the game and gave zero issues
>>688105061I think you are doing a good job
>>688097915It's on my to do list after I'm done with enderal vr.Did you use a modlist?
>>688097915How was it? Is the VR mod enjoyable?
>>688105061Interactive trees maybe? This is the game
>>688093079The problem is that non of those things add to the game as much as what has been removed since Morrowind. You're completely misunderstanding what people are asking for. Its not that they don't want more, is that they want _more_, without removing systems that are already in place.
>mushroom trees XDddd!111 BEST GAME EVAR!!11nah bro, loading into small instances for every npc because having anything outdoors was too hard is not good game designskyrim is clearly superior and better in every way with a massive community and the only fans of morrowind are all trying to remake it into skyrim because skyrim is just that damn good lol
>>688107005>nah bro, loading into small instances for every npc because having anything outdoors was too hard is not good game designHonestly I prefer this over the "open" way, those never feel properly "inside"
>>688069140>>688069197pretty much these. Money was ALWAYS a factor but not anywhere near the degree it is now where number can never ever down or we all die suddenly. >>688071893>BannerlordLMFAO, good one, Mehmed
>>688068810>An RPG series that got dumb-downed for consoles>ambitiousLol, no.
>>688107628Uh oh, here come the Daggerfags pretending the removal of Climbing and Languages as skills was some major loss.
>>688107005Ok but like wizards live in those trees. Isn't that badass?
>>688107824>Uh oh, here come the Morrowfags pretending the removal of Levitation and adding quest markers was some major loss.
Game developers are supremely uninteresting people. That’s it. That’s the secret. A random white collar Californian millennial will never make a good game. They can’t. Same reason rockstars make all their best music when they’re young men doing every drug possible and committing suicide like it’s a competition sport, but if they make it a few years into success they will shrink to mediocrity.Art requires an artist.
>>688108267What the fuck did Daggerfall have that was so ambitious? A big map? Oh wow, hot damn, this giant empty procedurally generated map really adds a load to the game and wasn't something you just fast traveled around in.Daggerfall was boring, stock standard fantasy shlock, the setting, story, and lore of Morrowind blows DF so thoroughly out of the water they shouldn't even be considered part of the same series.
>>688108703At the time it being big map and big cities where every building was enterable was the ambition. But now true chads know that procgen cannot generate soul.
That's what happens when you think money can fix all your problems.
>>688084261The KotN DLC with Huna and Peniel? They refused to confirm any relationship with Alessia, but throughout the years they went from Huna's sex being unstated to outright saying he was meant to be male. From caring about how we feel for eventually becoming him to 'Haha, faggot.'
>>688108703Systems you fucking retard. The procgen map was a negative, but the game had a ton of systems that supported role-playing. I wouldn't expect a Morrowbab to know about that though.
>>688108858>procgen cannot generate soul.It can facilitate it
>>688101345They're changing it cuz the indoril/mournhold architecture style is going to be exclusive to indoril nobles while the plebs instead will be living in standard hlaalu-esq buildings, that is to say they're being extra autistic about the nitty-gritty worldbuilding And That's A Good Thing
>>688110141What fucking """systems"""? Half the fucking skills in the game are languages and the rest are present in Morrowind in one way or another.Needing to have a skill to facilitate role playing is the sign of a turbo brainlet as well.
It's funny how there's still literally no other game series where you can walk into any house and punch the books off the shelf and then open any of them to read about a character that's referenced in 10 other books in this game and 15 in the past one
>>688112554>More ways to customise your character is le badRetard. Climbing alone could've led to more interesting level designs if they didn't scrap. Languages also could've bleed into the faction system and allow you to ally with some monsters and unlock unique quests.>Needing to have a skill to facilitate role playing is the sign of a turbo brainlet as well.The irony. Morrowfags love to shit on Oblivion and Skyrim for dumbing the games down, but it's perfectly fine when you do it, huh. By your retarded logic the only stats TES6 needs are melee, armour and magic.
>>688114438My favorite part about the background lore of TES is how everything is so vague, it's all second, third, fourth hand information ran through governmental vetting processes so you have 4 different interpretation of an event, 1 fringe interpretation heavily influenced by a cultural viewpoint, and refutations of each with one or two falling to the wayside due to religious or governmental censorship. Nothing ever lands on top, every piece of lore asks the player to pick out their favorite interpretation or cross reference all of them and come to their own conclusion. It's the closest a game has ever gotten to emulating real world religious/historical studies.The only things that aren't textbook "unreliable narrator" are the things you actively do in each game.
>>688068810Game systems can still be designed and implemented with the same number of lines of code as before but a 10x increase in the number of interconnected systems will produce exponentially more things to test and fix. The question is whether it is economical to make new games as bigger and better version of older titles or to create new concepts and markets with an unknown pool of customers. Companies have gotten so big with departments and teams having responsibilities that are so separate from each other that no individual can lead and no group can follow without chaos. Video games, like all other entertainment, compete for your time as a consumer. This leads into a winner takes all market that encourages companies to turn games into franchises and then monopolies.
>>688114810How much did Morrowind dumb down from Daggershit, exactly? Obviously ignoring the removal of languages and climbing because they were previously mentioned and also dogshit wastes of skills.The smaller map? No horses? Please, I'd love to know what was so important that we lost in the transition from Bethesda making generic shit to good games.
>>688116512>Obviously ignoring all the things that Morrowind removedRetard. I literally just gave an example as to how those skills could've been iterated upon in future games. We also lost vast dungeons that felt like actually dungeons for lame multi-hallway interiors. There's also backgrounds, which while minor, still enhanced the RPG aspect of the game, same with banks. The reputation system was also gutted, but that was to be expected since the map size was also gutted.Anyway, you've already proven yourself to be a braindead troglodyte by saying>Needing to have a skill to facilitate role playing is the sign of a turbo brainlet as well.
>>688074151This is accurate. The AAA workflow to make a character is thus:>1) concept artist draws a character design in orthographic view>2) 3D artist takes the concept and sculpts it in 3D high poly, including all clothing, face details, everything>3) 3D artist uses Substance Designer to procedurally generate materials for everything, leather, cloth, skin, etc., and paints on some subtle detail on top, all using PBR lighting to react to different lighting conditions and mimic real world materials>4) 3D artist retopologizes the mesh and bakes the high poly details onto a lower poly model (still 4x the poly count of Morrowind probably)>5) 3D rigger takes the model and weight paints it to a modern game rig to prep it for animation>6) mocap animations are recorded and stored in a huge library and then retargeted to each skeleton, so all of the characters have the same movements typically.This is the industry standard and it splits the job of making a character between typically 6 people, one specializing in each step of the process.For Morrowind, the process would have probably been more like this:>1) concept artist draws a character>2) 3D artist box models the character vertex by vertex into the final shape (no sculpting or retopo)>3) 3D artist unwraps the UVs for hand painting>4) Texture artist goes to work using photos, photoshop, hand painting and that's it, character has a simple albedo texture>5) character is rigged and animated by hand, likely using an animation library as wellThere are just so many fewer steps and each one is done by hand with a level of artistry that is now lost due to the automation of many tasks (UV unwrapping, animation by hand) and hyper specialization.
>>688117409>We also lost vast dungeons that felt like actually dungeons for lame multi-hallway interiorsI think that can be blamed on the game's rough development and it being built with the Xbox in mind (it could barely run it as is). The lack of any real dungeon crawling is kind of woeful, the closest the game comes is with a select few within the main quest (sadly they obviously ran out of time/money when it came to the red mountain) plus of course Tribunal, as long as you're into sewers.t. not that anon
>>688118376The whole "needs to fit on one CD" problem has seriously plagued Todd's trilogy.If current signs didn't point towards Bethesda losing the plot entirely, I'd be pretty excited seeing what TES 6 could do without that limitation.As it is, I'm terrified of yet more shitty proc-gen and "streamlining".
>>688118376Yeah, but that just drives home the point I made in my first post. There's is nothing ambitious about Morrowind, it's a game that was dumb-downed and scaled down for consoles. One of the earliest and most prolific victims of PC games being consolised.
>>688117409>>Obviously ignoring all the things that Morrowind removedSo, two things. Great.>I literally just gave an example as to how those skills could've been iterated upon in future games. Ok, so, keep super situational language skills around just in case an enemy type has a quest or some other dumb shit. Sounds like a great idea, I'm going to waste one of my major/minor slots on it for one quest. That or give the developers a tripled workload writing and designing entire questlines for half the enemy types in the game. Sounds really fucking feasible.Also Climbing was completely replaced by Levitate so what the fuck would be the point?> We also lost vast dungeons that felt like actually dungeons for lame multi-hallway interiorsVast dungeons that had a very real chance to not be completable or generate four inaccessible floors, all of which looked identical and had fuck all of note in them.>There's also backgrounds, which while minor, still enhanced the RPG aspect of the game, same with banksOh come on, are you just ripping anything that wasn't in Morrowind out of your ass here? The backgrounds were such a massive loss to you? Get real, jesus christ.>>Needing to have a skill to facilitate role playing is the sign of a turbo brainlet as well.Yeah, this is still true. I don't know if you realize it or not, probably not because you clearly have some sort of developmental problem, the removal and dumbing down of the skills from Morrowind to Oblivion/Skyrim pissing people off didn't have to do with the role playing aspect, it had to do with the actual gameplay getting shittier and shallower. And don't even try to come at me and say that Morrowind's gameplay was worse than fucking Daggerfall's because at that point I would know you're full of shit.
>>688068810my dream game is >FPS ARPG>morrowind graphics and atmosphere>open world>completely randomly generated world>Path of exile itemization/gear system with randomly generated affixes>specific biomes/dungeons have a chance to drop influenced gear with their own mod poolhonestly if I was not a wagie I would dedicate my time into building some sort of demo to see if FPS is really viable for this kind of gameI also have to think about how monster/area level will scale, maybe the world will be separated into different regions and each region gets increasing monster level depending on distance to spawn and they also can start rolling affixes tooI am a sucker for exploration games, mix that with ARPGs (PoE specifically) mechanics and it's ludokino
>>688118851>Ok, so, keep super situational language skills around just in case an enemy type has a quest or some other dumb shit. Sounds like a great idea, I'm going to waste one of my major/minor slots on it for one quest. That or give the developers a tripled workload writing and designing entire questlines for half the enemy types in the game. Sounds really fucking feasible.Yes. And doesn't have to for a ton of enemies you fucking moron, just sentient ones that have something resembling a community.>Also Climbing was completely replaced by Levitate so what the fuck would be the point?One's magical and one's physical you fucking moron. Again, I don't expect a Morrowfag to wrap his head around RPing in an RPG.>Vast dungeons that had a very real chance to not be completable or generate four inaccessible floors, all of which looked identical and had fuck all of note in them.Yes, and guess what, they could improve upon it you fucking idiot, that's the point of my entire argument. Daggerfall was a good foundation to build off of, instead they tore the building down.>Oh come on, are you just ripping anything that wasn't in Morrowind out of your ass here? The backgrounds were such a massive loss to you? Get real, jesus christ.I quite literally said it was minor you illiterate dog, holy fuck. At least cooldown and stop seething before you post.>Character limitThe gameplay is TES was always shallow you retard, it was always about the RP aspect. There is zero benefit to dividing weapons into things like bladed/blunt from a gameplay point of view. Both weapons play exactly the same, you just stand there smacking enemies that barely flinch or react to being hit.
>morrowind>ambitiousholy fuck how old are you.morrowind was scaled down because they wanted to play it safe after their failures in the late 90’s. its the origin of bethesdas remove a feature because we’re too stupid to think how to integrate it into the game. banks,horses,houses, and daedric princes summoning days were removed.it shows that bethesda would rather remove content then expand and improve it since the 21st century began.morrowind is patient zero for all of bethesdas problems.daggerfall was more ambitious anyways for all of its faults.
>>688120050>Kitchen sink approach to game designor>Pin down what worked and expand on it while clearing the chaffI know which one I prefer.Not that they ever did it again past Morrowind.
>>688120813What did they expand on?
>>688068965Project management is an art that takes years to refine. Unfortunately everyone forgot that and think its just a high paying job that can put their buddies or family into. Unfortunately it's not just games. You see it all the time in construction. Construction was always a mess but in the last 6 years it's turned into a dumpster fire. No one knows what they are doing, no one wants to learn and everyone is just waiting the clock out so they can go home. You can't just blame the guys too because cost of everything skyrocketed while the wages stayed the same. So anyone with half a brain that has any abillity left for better pastures.
>>688121229making the entire game fetch quests.
>>688118692>yet more shitty proc-genthis is exactly what you're getting along attempts at integrating AI generated content or some other neural network nonsense, don't forget to buy all the fancy horse armors in the creation club coming a year after launch
>>688121401That got me thinking. How much worse would Morrowind be if it had map markers?
>>688069140>they are being made by zoomersIncredibly how we've gotten 10 years of dogshit because of millenials yet you still manage to blame boomers for itHow fucking delusional and retarded can you be?
>>688121949How very grim.
>>688122112It is what it is
>>688121229Factions, magic, worldbuilding, alchemy, consolidating the map made for much more interesting exploration, environmental variety.
>>688121949>paid mods will be at their peak since M$ will be in talks to buy out Nexus in preparation for TESVIGrim
>>688122168morrowind questthe sunjamna quests weren’t good at all and the fighters guild sucked ass.
>>688070834they both good
>>688122349Source?That sounds utterly fucking terrifying.
>>688122092Probably almost as bad as Oblivion and Skyrim
>>688094804kino...
>>688091503>>688095481diablo doesn't have 4 statsit has 4 "attributes", but there are a bunch of important stats, most of them more important than the attributes
>>688101345Bottom is great. Top is retarded, looks like babby's first mod.
>>688120050it's still ambitious tardy>uhghHGNngng how OLD are you, swweetie? Heh..dumb virtue signalling faggot
>>688120050I hate this youtuber-influenced take on the series which is clearly adopted by hipsters who want to feel contrarian with respect to the Morrowind hipsters, and I see there's other fags itt repeating it. This mythical Daggerfall 2 with an incredibly long laundry list of superfluous features would have been impossible at the time, and if you don't see how Morrowind is ambitious with respect to actually focusing on quality over quantity, then you're lost.
>>688122334>FactionsObjectively false. The amount of factions were drastically reduced and they removed the associated factions. >magicTrue. They removed an entire school of magic called Thaumaturgy, and distributed spells to other schools. The exact same way Skyrim removed Mysticism and spread it spells out. However Schools still became more fleshed, Illusion in particular was woefully sparse in Daggerfall.>WorldbuildingTrue. Daggerfall felt like a game where they wanted to get systems in place first before expanding on the lore or world (shame they never expanded on the most of the systems).>AlchemyTrue>Consolidating the map and environmental varietyEh, half and half. The topography was a lot more varied and interesting to navigate, but the environmental variety is still less than Daggerfall. The omnipresent FOG to hide the shitty LOD and pop-ins didn't help much either.
>>688123318>diablo doesn't have 4 stats, it has 4 "attributes"Tomato, tomato (British).You don't have a say in the rest of your stats though, it's down to your gear so it's not comparable.
>>688124273>Tomato, tomato (British).Exactly. They're all stats.>You don't have a say in the rest of your stats though, it's down to your gear so it's not comparable.So you can't choose what gear to wear? In fact, that's what you DO choose. Most builds go "str/dex for requirements and the rest in vit". There's very little "choice" in attributes because they do jack shit. Meanwhile your gear is full of choices and has stats that actually matter.
>>688124650Sure, but that argument from 7 hours ago was about Morrowind's combat being closer to Baldur's Gate or Diablo.
>but the environmental variety is still less than Daggerfall. iirc Daggerfall has forest, desert, and jungle. Morrowind has mushroomy forest, swamps, grazelands, ashlands, and those weird rocky coastal areas with the giant mushrooms.
>>688125250for fucks sake meant for >>688124060
>>688097430I wish that Toady spent more time fixing bugs. One of DF's worst bugs was fixed in 0.50 because he finally went and looked for them before the steam release, now worldgen is like twice as fast because geographic locations no longer attempt to write books or some such shit. Also why the dick does their website still not use HTTPS in current year + 9?Also also the steam release somehow looks worse than ASCII kek
>>688069140meds
>>688125883Have they added adventure mode back in yet?
>>688069027All Bethesda games are pure garbage. The only difference is that the old garbage was less accessible than the post-Oblivion garbage. In fact, Oblivion is one of the most retarded RPGs in terms of mechanics ever made, it manages to surpass Japanese dungeon crawlers in terms of braindeadness.
>>688122168>morrowind quest: "go here and deliver this/kill this, and come back for your reward"Literally what happens. A complete, menial task with no surprises for the player. A complete lazy design, only supposedly supported by the game giving you directions instead of pointing you in a map. Which gets constantly highlighted as something "unique" that morrowind does, despite literally being the standard for rpgs back then.>oblivion quest: "go here and deliver this/kill this, and come back for your reward"Go kill someone because they're "evil". Turns out that npc tells you the real story about hope the quest-giver in reality is jealous about him and wants him to die. You have the option to not trust him and go against the wishes of the original quest-giver, or to go back to your quest giver and lie to him / kill him.It is much more interesting from a narrative standpoint. Even the "scripted scenes" surprise you the first time you play the game (which honestly is the most important experience you will have with the game)Most single player rpg have scripted quests. Because in a fucking single player, they're needed to make the experience interesting if the gameworld isn't super reactive and lives independent of the player. Otherwise, you don't have anything else than a mmo-tier menial quest design where everything is static, doesn't add anything to the experience, and is there as an excuse for the player to win reputation and rewards. If your gameworld is static and npcs are retarded as they're in morrowind and easy to cheese (like making them to look at a different place from where the item you want to stole from them is located) you have to make the quest interesting in some other way. NPC don't even sleep or have any other non-scripted schedules. So, no matter what, the quest is going to be exactly the same every single time in every new playthrough you do. Which is no much different feeling than a scripted quest.
>>688068810Ambitious games are risky. People with money don't like risks. People without lots of money can't afford to make a game this big.
>>688068810Gothic (1) is a better game. It's just not as big. But it's big enough. It's fucking great.
>>688068810I don't think you know what ambitious means. It doesn't mean "thing I like".
>>688126062Not fully. I don't think building camp sites is in yet. I haven't played in a while so I'm not sure. Campsites were one of the cooler parts of adventure mode, anyway. I wish the groups you started there had more interaction with the world, like you and your hearthspeople being able to form bandit or mercenary groups.
What did it do that what wasn't done before? Ultima did the world Sim and GTA3 did the open world in 3D>I like it. It's kino soul. I do t like other games they are soulless slopWah baby learned a new word. Dwoes baby want his diaper change? Is dwat why you mad?
>>688124060All fair points except:>the environmental variety is still less than Daggerfall.This is just disingenuous.Daggerfall owed its robust faction system to Julian LeFay's unhealthy faction autism, which will apparently make a return in Wayward Realms, but we'll see how that turns out.Barring that one point about factions, Morrowind is undoubtedly the more expansive and ambitious game of the two. Whereas Daggerfall is a spaghetti web of active simulation systems, Morrowind is a meticulously crafted snapshot of a believable, lived-in fantasy world.Looking at their goals individually, Daggerfall is much less successful at what it's trying to do. A lot of its systems aren't even functional, which unfortunately includes some of the factions.Morrowind embodies a worldbuilding project was slowly built up over the course of 6 years - starting right after Daggerfall and through Redguard. What Morrowind does is truly special. The world it presents boasts a level of detail, care and thoughtfulness that is rarely seen in video games - certainly never in another Bethesda game.
>>688123527Bottom is basic bitch. Middle is best.
>>688068810It's pretty cool and amazing that we're still talking about this game all these years after it dropped. What a great game.
>>688068810>deepYeah, I fucking love to click on hyperlinks and discover that 90% of the NPCs are copypasted.
>>688069140noit's the investors forcing rapid profit above all elsebig studios fail because they lose their funding if they don't reach their deadlines and quotasgame quality be damnedthe green line must go up
>>688126885In what world is it not ambitious to make a game in which you can cover miles and miles of distance and then steal a carrot off someone's kitchen table or take their silverware? Clueless zoomer.
>>688068810MONEY CAN NOT BUY CREATIVITYACTUALLY MONEY IS THE ANTITHESIS OF CREATIVITYCAPLOCKS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL
>>688128371Ultima did it first.Clueless zoomer.
>>688128763I'm glad to see you concede, dummy.
>>688125250Daggerfall has Forests, Deserts, Jungles, Mountains, Plains and Snowy areas.>>688127565Eh. While it's true that Morrowind succeed in making a believable world more than Daggerfall succeed at being an RPG life-sim, Morrowind is still not very ambitious. It scaled down or removed the majority of the life sim elements seen in Daggerfall and greatly condensed the map. The problem is though, is that while the world design improved, the majority of it's inhabitants are still as robotic as they were Daggerfall. My immersion always shatters when some merchant refuses to do business with me because I have Skooma in my back pocket, which I proceed to place on his table and then he has no problem doing business. There's also the fact that shops never close for the night and NPCs go to sleep, so good lucking playing a Thief. There's also the glaring absence of a bank.Morrowind's world is far more fleshed out and believable from a writing point of view, but from a presentation, systems/gameplay point of view, Daggerfall still trounces it.
>>688128371>In what world is it not ambitious to make a game in which you can cover miles and miles of distance and then steal a carrot off someone's kitchen table or take their silverware?OH MY SCIENCE! It is the most basic thing you can do in a somewhat sandbox rpg but.... LE HECKING SIZE OF THE MAP DUDE! 16 TIMES THE DETAIL!
>>688068810Morrowindfags are the worst part of the fanbase
>>688068810whats so ambitious about it?
>>688069027FPBP
Just go play Baldur's Gate 3 and Archaelund. The Elder Scrolls is not in good hands with Bethesda.
