A lot of people say retail wow is really difficult, but how does it compare to naxx/aq40 in 2006?
>>689445415wow was casual shit even when it released
>>689445415They are completely different games, the difficult of vanilla was mostly on a team-level where you had to manage 40 retards and get them to at least do enough dps while also moving (different from current wow where you can full blast on the move) and coordinating all the various unique roles per fight, nu wow you just need 10-25 retards that have enough addons to tell them when to move, where to move and how to execute their rotation, it's more on a personal level and pass DPS checks.
#ad !drops
>>689445415Most of naxx had like 1-2 mechanics you had to execute well+gear check. Modern wow raiding is a schizophrenic team dance of following some autistic add-on while you're having a seizure where one guy fucking up once means total wipe. Theres a reason there's the average wow raider experience meme with all those klaxons, bells and warning lines.
>>689445415Naxx and AQ40 were made for people who didn't have an addon telling them what to do. Every single retail encounter is made with the mindset that players are all using one, retail mythic raiding is a lot more difficultClassic raiding is more fun though
>>689445415Absolute number of wipes required to clear the hardest bosses did not really decrease. However some of the difficulty shifted to handing individual mechanics, long fights, etc. instead of keeping 40 retards from falling asleep or getting them to show up for raids. If 20man mythic raids require the same number of wipes before a first kill as classic 40man raids did, then technically the game got harder. There are way more mechanics per boss nowadays. This isn't a surprise because player skill increased not just with practice and experience, but with information being available too. It's much easier to find guides and prepare for everything than back then. There are better addons too. So, boss fights are harder, mechanics are tighter, but we have fewer people who can fuck up and have way more meta to help us.
>>689445415Oldfag here, as in played in the alpha when Tauren's had no mount and just had an automatic speed increase insteadWhat made old WoW hard was: retards didn't have spoonfed guidesThe few good guides were shared on forums and in some cases, the top guilds would literally require things like Id showing to register to access them with the idea being if you 'leaked' the guides, you were automatically agreeing to be doxxedBut no, it was never hard. It was just herding a bunch of retards who were too casual to play the autism game of 'do shit perfectly'Look at how Classic was, within days of it being announced every shithole had 'lolz these are the super duper guides you need'.
This game ruined the MMO industry forever
>>689445415Classic is a joke and has always been a joke. Classic was made during the era of dial up, during an era when information wasn't out there on how to do stuff, no addons. Hell if you watch videos of the world first kills the majority of people are keyboard turning, clicking ,and backpeddling.Retail is not World of Warcraft, retail is an E-sport first, all things else second. Fun does not come first, the players do not come first, the E-sport comes before all else. As it as been with all of Blizzards games with Starcraft.
>>689445415The difficulty of naxx/aq40 in 2006 was completely dependent on people being bad at the game and every group having dead weight. Combined with the fact that resources on the game were very scarce.Players are significantly more skilled today. They have better resources to improve and learn and assist their play. And the bar for entry at the top level is much higher. Modern players already make a mockery of these raids in classic, proving they were never actually difficult. But their difficulty was organic and SOVL in their day.
>>689445415WoW was never difficult, the only """difficulty""" in 40 man raids was to get everyone in front of the screen, because every 2 minutes somebody would have to take a shit, look after their kid, answer the phone, or answer the door, etc etc, but since everyone nowadays is a joyless metagoblin with optimized BiS gear, talents, and class composition, it heavily cuts down on the time it takes to clear these things
>>689445415Retail isn't World of Warcraft, retail is an e-sport.
>>689445802>nu wow you just need 10-25 retards that have enough addonsThis is some serious cope. Considering 20m mythic size was not mentioned, it's probably someone who has never gone past heroic.Retail WoW is incomparable to vanilla. Standards of play have increased so much that it's a totally different experience. Early vanilla/TBC raids tended to feel like wrangling a bunch of drunk retards. The playerbase was trash, with everyone clicking, keyboarad turning, oftentimes not even knowing optimal specs or gear. To be fair, the internet was newer back then, and less searchable. Modern retail raiding is like virtual professional football for autists. Massive coordination, perfect inputs for 5-10 minutes straight, if a single person fucks up or even if the team just collectively lowrolls on crits/procs for dps, the whole thing is done. On the other hand, recovering from wipes can be almost immediate. Raid prep is less. Raid comp is generally less strict in terms of viable specs unless you're pushing for world first clears. Things are more balanced.Addons can help of course, but it's an endless arms race between the raid designers and the addon coders. You didn't need addons in vanilla because there were no mechanics.Honestly I think the retail has gone too far in favor of maximizing difficulty, at the cost of fun. A lot of players burnt out eventually. I did, too.
>>689446895Not to mention that in 2005 half of the raid's computer would shit the bed in 40 man raids, and that average ping wasn't nearly as good as it is today
>>689445415>but how does it compare to naxx/aq40 in 2006?naxx was not difficult, as shown by them rehashing it for wotlk and it being the easiest tier of all time
>>689445415It was hard because players were worse. 15 fps 100 ping while keyboard turning and not gearing/specing optimally makes even simple bosses extremely difficult, especially when you don't have addons holding your hand.
>>689445802>>689446807don't forget those 40 guys were raiding at like 10-15 fps kek
>>689446248>like Id showing to register to access themWow you need a fake ID? Sure nobody out of the millions of players could come up with that! More like nobody except ultra mega losers gave a fuck about tryharding PVE in this game and still don't to this day.
>>689447530>especially when you don't have addons holding your handthere were plenty of addons holding peoples hands by then though. Some addons that were later broken because they were too strong even.
>>689447243How tight are dps checks in mythic raiding? Is everyone being a 99% parsetranny mandatory?
>>689445524>less than 2% of the entire playerbase managed to clear NaxxramasYeah total casual shit, I'm sure you cleared it all first week of release.
>>689447916AVR my beloved
>>689448062it was mainly a gear checkthe game as it was back then still exists, you knowyou can go play it right now and see for yourself without relying on made up statistics
>>689447943worse while gearing and progressing, but later while farming clears guilds often 18 man it with 2 dead carries. usually with 1 less healer. the final 2 or 3 bosses are orders of magnitude harder than the previous though.it's more about getting mechanics right than dps, but people care more about dps so their mechanics sufferive only mythic raided 2 tiers though, cleared one tier 9/9 then quit the next 7/9. I don't play anymore
>>689448306The only gear check in the raid is Patchwerk. Every other encounter requires some sort of strategy to beat. You've probably never cleared Naxx actually.
>>689448505you're talking about stuff no one could possibly fuck up like getting out of rain of fire or MCing an addconsidering any fight in naxx as requiring "strategy" makes me think you have trouble tying your shoes
Because even people in raiding guilds doing aq40 and naxx were terrible at the game.https://youtu.be/ka50KwwvJBU?si=1EjZ2crEXUIqjL_GLook at this guy, he's fucking clicking everything.
>>689448803once again you prove you have never done naxx
>>689447530>2006>100 pingFor the first few expansions if you were sub 300ms that was considered good.
>>689448505None of the bosses in naxx are even remotely complicated.
>>689449034naxx is easier than the average delve and those don't even have mechanics
>>689447943>Is everyone being a 99% parsetranny mandatory?I haven't played in a few years, but that was the case when I quit. If one player dies the fights spiral into a wipe unless you can immediately battle res. There's a cap on those now.Ever since WotLK, they've added soft handicaps that slowly ramp player power. The mechanism of accomplishing this is not always exactly the same. Unless it's changed recently, the modern method tends to be RNG weekly chests for high end gear which'll slowly scale up player power, plus whatever gear you can farm from your current progression, plus some kind of farmable upgrades with a catchup mechanic to keep everyone roughly within the same 2-3 week range of power creep.Since bosses are tuned harder deeper into a raid, in a progression guild you will always be running into a wall at whatever boss meets your current dps capability. Top guilds split up raids and funnel gear to stack a team of 20 decked out players faster.
>>689446807While DBM and BigWigs weren't as prevalent, Classic DID have the absolutely busted versions of Decursive and Emergency Monitor.
>>689445802It wasn't just because Vanilla raiding was an exercise in tard wrangling, it's also because people had shit internet and shit computers in 2006. The game was a slideshow compared to what we're used to not.
>>689445415No one here was even alive in 2006. That's ancient history no one should care about
>>689449410I would say naxx is about as hard as normal difficulty raids.
>>689449279If Naxxramas wasn't difficult at all compared to other vanilla content, then more than 2% of the entire playerbase would have cleared it.With the exception of needing tons of geared tanks for 4 horsemen, it really was too hard for players. By all means, make another post proving you never played WoW while it mattered.
Something people really don't appreciate is just how much worse the average player was back in the day. There's a reason the most mechanically complex fight in Naxx, Thaddeus, just requires the braincells to move left or right, and for everyone to do it and not just one. It wasn't just because older pc couldn't handle more complex fights, it's also because we were just objectively worse players.
>>689449547>Tard Wrangling That's putting it lightly. I remember one time to prove a point on how useless and a gear sponge most of our Paladins and Druids were, myself, the four other Priests and one Resto Druid healed Molten Core and the "Ret/Feral at Heart" Paladins and Druids could DPS full time.No one could tell a difference. In the healing nor the damage done.
>>689449894Nta but it wasn't because the content was hard, it's because the playerbase fucking sucked and even the most hardcore vanilla players would get shitstomped by a mid-tier raider today.
>>689449894It was difficult because people were worse. Stop being blinded by nostalgia and actually watch old videos, the average player is clicking and playing the game at 15 fps.
>>689445415The abilities were far less diverse and complicated, but they do huge damage. Like a dot being applied to players would chunk.Retail has fights that have far more mechanics, that also raidwipe/do half of your health or more in damage.
>>689448062Old raids are like 3-4 things.Knowledge checks, tard checks, gear checks, and the time to overcome to first 2 given the best you had at the time were typically Alakazam and Thottbot. Which were more word of mouth and player experience than the datamined information everyone is reliant on now.The hardest part of raids back in vanilla was getting all the retards that actually know their 1-5 button rotation to do it and stay out of the shit on the ground kills them, or having your competent playt=ers geared out enough to just completely off set those 10 keyboard turning chucklefucks that ran out of mana or died 30 seconds into the fight.
>>689450093Yeah but then it turned out we were actually just bad and that raid comp in question could have easily beaten MC if they just played with a minimum of optimization.
>>689450153>Knowledge checks, tard checks, gear checks, and the time to overcome to first 2 given the best you had at the time were typically Alakazam and Thottbot.You forgot one>having internet that could handle 40 players with you at once.
>>689447103That's why "Classic" raids were cleared five minutes after they were released. Everyone was hyperspecialized with BiS after 16 years of retrospection and data mining.Vanilla WoW was hard because you didn't know wtf to do. My guild learned Razorgore by attempting Razorgore over and over and over and building our own strategy. There were no Youtube guides (if there were, they were under 8 min and in 240p), no wowhead, no in-game boss guide. You showed up and you fought the boss, then you and 39 other assholes tried to figure it the fuck out.
>you were just badHow is it the fault of vanilla players that they didn't have the hindsight of 15 years of playing vanilla which let them know the most optimal way to do everything?
>>689449894>then more than 2% of the entire playerbase would have cleared it.literally copy pasted the same mechanics and bosses into wotlk. gearchecks were harder in vanilla because you had to gear from the bottom up rather than being able to enter into naxx with everyone having reasonable gear.Gearchecks are just numbers though, it is not easy or hard, its just a matter of having done the same raids over and over enough to gear up. And seeing as naxx was not out for very long before BC, not very many guilds got all the way up the ladder in time.
>>689450531>gearchecks were harder in vanillaPeople have 5-manned Naxx in Classic, it wasn't just a gear thing, we simply sucked.
difficulty back then>this unoptimal group won't pass a gear check if the mages can't click frostbolt a littler fasterdifficulty now>the trash mobs before the boss all have have 10 different phases with 50 mechanics each requiring constant position changes and split second callouts that are impossible for a human to actually do without DBM automating every aspect of the fight save for actually doing any inputs. Takes a minute to fight normally but if you don't clear it in 20 seconds you don't get speedrun good boy points this week and are going to be behind for the entire patch cycle.
>>689450460the game was poorly designed>haha you picked druid or warlock at character creation oopsie lol
>>689450102>>689450108>It's hard because it demands attention and basic gaming skillsYou can extrapolate that to anything>Quake isn't hard, literally just point at the enemy and clickYes, the modern wow-tard is lightyears ahead of boomers who played in 2006. It doesn't change the fact that Naxx and AQ40 were too difficult for them.
>>689450685Ok Druid aside, Warlocks were still viable in vanilla.
>>689450646>gearchecks were harderliterally the opposite of what the post said
>>689450726That doesn't mean it's objectively hard, it means it's hard for people that suck. By that logic every game is hard in some sense unless you're playing a Kirby game.
>>689450760Warlocks are comfy. Free group spots thanks to curses, and they can park infernals on spots where escort quests end.
>>689450153>retards didnt know their rotationsProof you didn't play vanilla, ever. Most classes are literal 1 button classes. True answer from someone who has cleared vanilla: Difficulty came from dispel mechanics, and more accurately the lack of UIs that clearly displayed which members need to be dispelled/decursed/depoisoned. And lack of datamining. Vanilla is very much about preparation.It's still laughable to say Naxx wasn't challenging at all, when only a tiny minority was able to go through it.
>>689450760>dogshit class but you need one for mark of the wild and rebirth is nice>dogshit class but you need two for curses
>>689450685>pick druid or warlock>oh no vanilla sucks!>literally every following expansion for almost two decades put you as the king of your respective role in some wayI dont think it was that bad of a choice really
>>689450920That one curse made bosses die significantly faster.
>>689445415PvE niggers get the rope.
>>689450917It was challenging because people were terrible at the game. see >>689448958
>>689450917>Difficulty came from dispel mechanicsand the solution was just to install the addon that did it for you automatically
>>689450531>you had to gear from the bottom upANOTHER poser entered the thread. They literally added ZG and AQ20 as catchup raids that allowed you to skip the entire MC/BWL stage of raiding. What compels you zoomies to post in these threads? Do you realize anyone who's played vanilla can immediately tell you've never even reached level cap?
>>689450920Honestly wish buffs and utility were still exclusive to some classes. The whole >take the player not the classshit is the stupidest thing they've ever said when people just reroll fotm top healing and dps parsing now. Same shit, different method.
>>689451020PvP was fucking lame in vanilla.
The difficulty of a game is relative to the players playing it at the time. Modern WoW is designed around people who have autistically played the game for 20 years acquiring and spreading knowledge. Naxx was absolutely the hardest raid they have ever released if you go by how many people at the time would/could/should clear it.
>>689450646>it wasn't just a gear thingIt kind of was. There was no catch-up gear in vanilla. If you wanted to be geared for Naxx you needed like rank 12 pvp gear, BiS from AQ40, trinkets from BRD with a 0.5% drop. That meant 39 other people had to spend hours running you through old raids and/or pvping for weeks just so you could put out the dps needed for some of those bosses.Also, ain't no way five people killed Patchwerk at 60, or horsemen for that matter. Were there four tanks?
>>689451063There is no addon that does that for you automatically. Unless you're using scripts, player input is always required. And in fights such as Noth, if you don't start decursing fast enough, you won't clear the curses in time and the fight is wiped. And yes, this is "difficult" in Wow standards.
>>689450920Druid was unkillable in 1v1 though. With player knowledge in classic relaunch, Druid was clearly S-tier.
>>689451080Most of the gear in zg/aq20 is garbage. Vanilla boomers who think that they're knowledgeable about the game because they played it when were 10 years old 20 years ago need to shut the fuck up because you're trying to argue against autists who have spent 20 years of their life playing the game on private servers and perfectly optimizing every aspect of the game.
>>689450917 >only 1 button>only casters existOkay, retard.
>>689451373>There is no addon that does that for you automaticallyNot anymore because they broke the functionality after vanilla. Decursive was a one button auto dispell up until 2.0 (tbc pre patch) when they changed the api to cuck it.
>>689451128True, if you weren’t mage or rogue or at the very least ele shaman, hunter, warlock you were pretty much free kills. Also way too bursty, even as a ele shaman i literally exploded in a single 1 second long no detection rogue stun. Game is an unbalanced peice of shit and niggas trying to convince you thats actually le based are retarded
>>689451558>Most of the gear in zg/aq20 is garbageYes it was, but it was better than what dropped in MC and most of BWL. There were plenty of shortcuts added into PvE, but it wasn't enough help for 2006 players. Naxx simply was too difficult for them.
>>689451080classic only player spotted
>>689445415Back then two mechanics on a boss made people shit and piss their pants.Retail has up to three mechanics now on a boss. It's intense!
20 years ago people brought strength plate warriors and like 9-16 meme specs. Now they bring 25 agi fury warriors, no shit it got easy when everyone in the raid is literally outputting 3-4x more damage than the average retard in vanilla
>>689450917>when only a tiny minority was able to go through it.burning crusade came out a couple months after naxx, thus rendering all of it irrelevant.
>>689451671Played original retail, classic, various private servers and currently on Warmane with raids adjusted to 25man size. I just know more about this game than you're ever going to admit, but it's okay.
>>689451558There is bis or near bis gear for every class in every raid of vanilla. It's not a linear intentionally designed path like later expansions. You have a reason to run all of them on a new character. In general the strongest gear in MC/BWL is better than things you can get in ZG/AQ20. But there are plenty of pieces in ZG/AQ20 that is better than MC/BWL. Especially for casters.
>>689450917Anon, your hyperbole is showing. Every single non caster (fuck half of those do too when the debuff cap got raised) utilized multiple buttons, and that's still over half the classes that you actually did take to a raid.
>>689445415>>689445802>have to wrangle 40 retards>many bosses can raidwipe due to one retard not following (simple) mechanics>everyone has dogshit pcs>way less "dbm" style addons>way less raid guide resources (no 2 minute boss recap youtube vids)The raids were significantly easier but external factors made them much harder than raiding today
>>689451661No it's not, it's barely usable blues and most of the epics are also garbage. I get that when you're 10 years old playing vanilla you have no idea what gear is optimal, but as someone who has spent way too much clearing raids and gearing up on private servers over and over again I can assure that zg/aq20 gear is fucking horrible.
>>689451856>It's not a linear intentionally designed path like later expansions.Gotta be one of the biggest mistakes modern wow made. So much content out there, yet none of it matters except whatever the latest 6 months is.They could really learn from runescape.
>>689445415Have you ever played DDR? It's that but with your fingers. I only see this game being difficult for caster classes, bosses do so much bullshit now, it's like trying to cast something in the middle of a dance class, you just CAN'T stand still
>>689445415>people had disconnects way more frequently due to shittier internet>people had higher ping due to shittier internet>2005 computers had significantly more trouble handling the game in a 40-man environment, in some cases someone's pc would outright crash mid-bossfight>people were very much still casuals, merely trying to enjoy some video games, metard guilds existed but they were more of a niche thing before twitch made it the new norm to treat video games like a job>the game was still live, which meant balance and class changes that people had to adapt to, as well as generally trying to figure shit out when new content droppedwhat's not to get zoomoid? ywnbaw
>>689449894Naxx is the epitomy of leading 39 other retards through a ton of gear checks to get to the point of beating it.Most guilds usually just collapsed because of drama. Gear gets filtered to a select few then the big guild would poach them because they met a gear check level they guild needed. Now the other guild has to poach someone that is geared to clear the level they are at. Rinse repeat.
>>689452042You sound like the bitch everyone would /ignore
naxx and aq40 were never hard
>>689452028>Press BL and upkeep shout, dump excess into HS. Execute when boss low.Super complicated>Upkeep SnD and RuptureSuper complicated>Keep up Serpent Sting and use Aimshot/Multishot on CDSuper complicatedI could go on, but there's no reason to. I realize most 2006 players were actually clicking these buttons, but vanilla still has class depth as shallow as a puddle.
>>689447243Also half the people on vanilla were running the game at 20 fps on a 720p monitor
The difficulty of real vanilla (2006) was the following-A majority of people did not know how to play the game well (This is what made the game so good by the way)-The 1.12 talent system and balance that everyone is intimately familiar with at this point was not introduced until the naxxramas patch-The game was not a solved puzzle like it is today, with information on strategies, video guides, optimal equipment, etc easily accessible to anybody.-The incredible amount of time and effort players who take a leadership role have to put into the game to assure that 40 different people all with jobs and real life commitments are going to show up on time and play properly is the absolute hardest part of vanilla, and continues to be even today in era servers, and the launch of classic in 2019. The roster boss is and will always be way more difficult than anything blizzard will ever put into a retail mythic+ or whatever raid.
>>689452097>the game was still liveRetail is still live, but this is true for all the Classic trash. Those dudes are playing a solved game.
>>689452061>No it's not, it's barely usable blues and most of the epics are also garbage.At least you are man enough to admit you didn't ever play Vanilla WoW. For your honesty I commend you, it's very rare to see on this board.
Don't forget that most people had their UI look like this.
>>689452271>rupture in vanillahehe oops
>>689450850Holy shit the mental gymnastics of a retard. If you don't rate things relative to their time then you can't make any objective statements. You would just constantly reevaluate everything as time progresses and call those before you retarded and incompetent for not having the knowledge gained after their death.
>>689445802a top raider before had to be a real “nerd” with a lot of logistic works and knowledge. now a good raider is purely about mechanical performance
>>689447943Nah, unless you're in top 50 execution and comp fucks you much more. In my top 200 guild WoD to BfA if that makes any difference we've never ran into a dps check that wasn't a skill issue. Doing 80%+ is more than enough.
>>689452271>serpent sting
>>689452501Oh no I misremembered the rogue dot, my entire point is now invalidated and I lost.
>>689452413>183msI'm glad that my father decided to upgrade our internet pretty early, and often.I'm also glad that I bought a 1600x900 monitor rather quickly.
>>689452604you didnt have the debuff slots to use irrelevant dps dots
>>689452249Yeah people are coping about le pc specs and internet and blah blah blah. I already said in this thread it but it comes down to everyone know now how much more damage you can do picking a not shit class with actual stats(AGI) that do things with a good talent setup. People cleared naxx no comms with weekly literal who boomer dads week 2 pugging on classic. It doesn’t matter when everyone is now dealing so much more damage how retarded everyone is. Retards still exist in current day wow but your pretty much playing lfr on even more undertuned content.
>>689452413titan panel, home...
>>689452593Accounts for roughly 20% of your overall damage done as a hunter over the entire run, dear pedophile-kun.
>>689452061The ZG enchants alone make it worth it. The hit gear for casters is better than shit you can get in BWL/MC. That took 10 seconds of thinking to invalidate your retardation.
>>689452395Yes, and Retail ((Classic)) started with the Burning Crusade Pre-Patch as far as Class Balance goes, which is pretty much playing on baby mode as individual class damage was off the charts to ensure shitters could catch up before the expac dropped. This pretty much trivialized raid encounters in nu-classic.
>>689452413beautiful
>>689452730if you think a 40 man raid let hunters use serpent sting in vanilla you're more retarded than i thought
>>689452693In 2006 players weren't optimizing debuff slots. You are a total fraud larper for pretending they did. It's unlikely you were even alive when Naxxramas was released.
>>689452708>were>isMore retards incapable of understanding linear time.
>40 people>vast majority were normal people and not tryhards>no minmax guides>barely anything even on youtube>tactics were a few sentences per encounter on some wow siteI didn't play in top 1 guilds where people autistically planned shit for hours but I had a lot of fun as a teenager
>>689452760ZG also did wonders for relaxing weapon droughts from MC and BWL.
>>689452831>In 2006 players weren't optimizing debuff slots. You are a total fraud larper for pretending they did.rupture wouldnt last for its duration regardless retard. even in 2006 people realized that using rupture was equal to pissing into the wind.
>>689452861it wasn't hard back then either, all the difficulty came from external reasons not because of the raids themselves.
>>689452813Debuff limits weren't understood nor taken advantage off back in Vanilla. There's abundance of footage of server first kills online to prove it. You have never played Vanilla.
>>689445415They're so different that it's difficult to really compare them. The complexity of the bosses between naxx/AQ40 vs retail bosses are night and day from a pure mechanical perspective. It's really everything else surrounding the bosses that made them tough to go through. Logistics of getting 39 other dudes that can be geared up and have some semblance of knowing how to play their classes as well as knowing the basic mechanics. It's easy now because it's been solved to hell and back but in 2004-2006, you didn't have so many resources to tell you what to get and what to do and that adds ups between all those misses on optimization.Compare that to current day Retail and you have everything in those fights neatly mapped out and understood from the get go. Thus, the difficulty for Retail raids is really put into the execution more than anything else.
>>689452413I've seen worse.
>>689445415The difficulty is getting 40 people together grinding through all the progressive content and willing to farm their consumes each week. also a frost resist set for Saph. The only iq check is 4 horsemen, the rest should only take you a few attempts and there is a couple of one shots like noth and anub.
>>689452889Oh no, most normal people stopped playing wow at like level 20-40, raiders were still ultra try hard geeks. They just didn’t know wtf they were talking about at the time. Raiders have and always will be a minority in mmos
*BWEEEEEEEP*
>>689451128Funny that was also when a majority of the playerbase were actually interested in it if you look at WarcraftVideos or read forums posts at the time.>>689451597>vanilla mage>good in pvprofl>>689451496Vanilla was balanced more about classes having situational advantages in PVP rather than every class having the same damage and options pummeling a raid boss NPC. I mained it on Nostalrius and Classic and some things about Druid are indeed very OP, a move speed increased with no cooldown for example, being able to transform into a raid tank at any time, and very strong abilities without having to cast anything. In duels in vanilla Warlocks and Priests generally win because of the limited space and fear sending you running into the countdown but if people dueled in Nagrand arena in TBC I think Druids would win pretty much every fight.
>>689453004In a way i miss old UIs and the shit people did with them. On the other thank fuck i got over the idea i needed to see every single instance of damage being done.
>>689452982>Debuff limits weren't understoodyou're a moron. >There's abundance of footage of server first kills online to prove it.find a single one where you can even make out the debuffs at all lmao this is peak larp
>>689452958Yeah the external reasons of people being worse at the video game at the time. Which is why it was difficult at the time. Crazy right? That the game was designed by people and played by people who had a set of experiences and abilities ingratiated from their time and space in the linear path of time. It's genuinely mental the gymnastics you have to go through to invalidate the experience of people at the time because people with 15 years of experience and knowledge can do something easily that was challenging at a previous time.
>>689453004>>689453103Jesus Christ, what a fucking mess. There's 0 reason to see 80% of the information plastered on these UIs. Default UI is also an overcluttered piece of shit.
>>689453034The experience was different for me and I stayed in the same guild since I could go the barrens. There was only one autistic retard who bragged that played only using a keyboard and thought it was impressive
>>689453137>situational advantage aka you picked a good class that 1-2 shot everyone at range/rogue or didn’t >pretending vanilla mage pvp is not one of the best classes when its literally always the winner of every pvp event and a battleground god with its aoe damageYeah oaky retard its not that deep blizzard just can’t balance correctly
>>689453229>more dots
>>689453229No, YOU'RE a moron and your facade is obvious. Yes, there's clearly a correct way to use debuffs. Vanilla players didn't know how to optimize anything, especially not ability use. Last response to posing zoomer who never even entered the raid.
>>689453381>onyxia wipe
>>6894454151.- Naxx/aq40 was NOT hard. ever. People were just SHIT back then. 2019 Vanilla classic proved this.The hardest part of Vanilla raiding was LOGISTICS. today, with discord and guides min-maxxing out the ass, the hardest part of logistics is diminished and the average pug performance is also higher thanks to even the most casual shitter following an optimized spec and item list to go for.back in 2006 the game was hard because people were shit and resources were scarce.today, even if the player performance was equally bad, the environment makes it more than 100% easy, because the performance or raid mechanics themselves are not hard either.There's also the factor the fans who have played since then are also better players.Regardless, outside of players being a factor, the raids stand alone were NEVER hard. there were no raid mechanics in this game until Ulduar (barebones) and realistically until Cataclysm raids.>>689445947add-ons do make fights easier, another reason why Classic WoW is a joke is thanks to addons. But so is retail WoW. Retail WoW mechanics aren't hard either. Raiding and Pve in general was never hard unless you're a room temp IQ brainlet. The illusion of difficulty is dispelled after you do the basic mechanics blizz has regurgitated since the game's conception (Taunt swapping, get out of fire, kill adds, press action button, etc) and the "nu" mechanics which retards think are complex (use the boss's attack to break terrain to click on item and use on boss, etc)If you play vidya not a single Wow boss fight is complex.
>>689453004Can you raid without knowing that your pet got overhealed by healing rain? Thought so.
>>689453332Being the best every 3 minutes doesn't mean shit when rogues, warlocks, hunters, warriors getting that MS off faster than you can react with 100-200 ping, and druids exist.>gets mad at situational advantage>mentioned aoe damage when people are groupedanon...
>giving a shit about the debuff limit when every classic raid optimal class set up is 30 fury warriors/frost mages auto attacking Lol
>>689445415Naxx was only difficult in 2 ways. The first was the preparation. Not just the gear you had to get but you needed(yes needed) 4 full properly geared tanks, the priests needed spell hit gear for the mindcontrol fights, and consumables were no longer a nice to have but a basic requirement. And the second big challenge was that the fights required the whole raid, not just the melees or just the ranged but the whole raid, even the fucking healers to move and watch their surroundings in addition to fulfilling their primary role. That was never the case before. At most you would have to watch out for an AOE but in Naxx you had to be on your toes all the time. Problem is most classes weren't designed to be mobile. So for priests, warlocks and paladins it was like threading a needle wearing oven mitts.
>>689453332>>pretending vanilla mage pvp is not one of the best classes when its literally always the winner of every pvp event and a battleground god with its aoe damageThat's not even true? All duel tournaments had Warlock or sPriest winning with F-tier Druid even coming third! And if you are talking about battlegrounds teams genuinely do run one of each class which would make it literally the most balanced WoW PVP has ever been.
>>689453424find one. a single one. you made the claim
>>689453585>the rare situation of every group pvp event ever Yeah okay, you’re a moron. Frost mage is arguably the best 1v1 durl class and objectively the best 3v3+ class in vanilla. >b-b-b-but open worldStill pretty good and who cares open world 9/10 times is just rogue stun lock bursts or killing players so low level they cant fight back anyways
>>689445415the main difficulty of naxx in 2006 was tard wrangling 40 people to show up consistently enough to learn and execute mechanics. Compared to modern wow it wasnt particularly hard. Difficulty of AQ40 was also tard wrangling, mechanics were largely even easier though however there were a few severely over tuned bosses they didn't nerf for months which made it feel super hard. Both instances also had resist check boxes which required your entire 40 man raid to grind up a full set of special resist gear only used for that one fight
>>689453575>It's not hard.>Okay they found it hard at the time, but that's because they were not as good as me later looking back at them!>Raids were only difficult when I was playing the game and was challenged! ME! ME!T. Retard.
>>689453684>And the second big challenge was that the fights required the whole raid, not just the melees or just the ranged but the whole raid, even the fucking healers to move and watch their surroundings in addition to fulfilling their primary roleI think this is evidenced by the fact that players still struggled with naxx mechanics 3 years later in Wotlk. Naxx would obviously be a joke by todays standards, but it was ahead of its time.
>>689452028lollmao even>MageFrostbolt>Lockdots. shadowbolt. >Shamanlightning bolt spam>huntermash buttons on CD. keep 1 dot>boomkinLMAO>spriestdots. mind blast on CD. mind flayall the casters were put dot. CD. filler. 1-3 button classes.Vanilla was never about skill or performance. it's just a giant gear check. This is why vanilla is overglorified shit and WOTLK was better. Because WOTLK had polished toolkits for the class design that actually gave them rotations, utility, and value in player ability.
>>689451558>Most of the gear in zg/aq20 is garbageAQ20 maybe because a lot of that shit was made to fill the gaps in hybrid itemization but ZG has pound-for-pound some of the best loot in any raid. Yes it isn't going to compete with BWL or Rag gear most of the time but going from UBRS-tier stuff to ZG is an amazing jump.I'm also biased because ZG is my favorite raid of all time
>>689453838It was never hard. There was an illusion of difficulty from players that didn't know any better.you're not very bright ESL-kun.
>>689453838Logistics is irrefutably the only hard thing about Classic/Vanilla Wow.The skill-check, mechanics or performance demanded was minimal. Preparation (resistance gear, consumables, gear) was the bigger factor in Vanilla.Hence it wasn't really hard. Just time-consuming. I'm glad the game changed to give more agency and weight on player ability. Vanilla and TBC are massively overrated.
>>689452271>wasting a global debuff slot for the absolute trash that is Serpent Sting>thinking you can just Aimshot on CD without clipping your auto attack and crippling your DPSI'm not going to argue that rotations in Vanilla were some super complicated thing but c'mon nigga.
>>689453898>players still struggled with naxx mechanics 3 years laterPlayers tend to get tunnel visioned very quickly. Focusing on their rotation, focusing on boss mod timers, keeping an eye on their buffs/debuffs and on top of that they would have to watch their surroundings. That's too much for many players.
>>689454075How do you type this out and not realize you are retarded?
>>689454165>I'm glad the game changed to give more agency and weight on player abilitymeanwhile in reality they just released delves which are all vanilla-tier hard gear checks
The naxx 40 mechanics are the same as the naxx 25 mechanics in wotlk. It was an incredibly easy tier in wotlk, one of the fastest to be cleared to date.
Hunter was only brought to tranq, you were never going to out dps the 30 fury warriors/frost mages doing 1/4th the work with 1.5x the damage minimum. Nobody gives a fuck about your stupid dot, you were only brought to vanilla raids because people were retarded
>>689453103Lacking a fingerless glove meter
>>689450153>or having your competent playt=ers geared out enough to just completely off set those 10 keyboard turning chucklefucks that ran out of mana or died 30 seconds into the fight.this kek1/3 of my guild had hardly touched a computer before WoW
>>689454165don't forget raid comp.Vanilla was boring dispel-botting and standing there doing nothing waiting on mana to regen healing-wise.2019-2022 showed us that vanilla wow is overrated trash.SoD at least tries to give it a remix novelty, but outside of new content there's no reason to even entertain vanilla gameplay.WoW peaks in MoP gameplay-wise and everyone should stop playing this MMO after that expansion. Story also basically ends there quality-wise. Pveshitters just didnt like Cata/MoP because of the dailies and rep grinds but actual gameplaywise the game is peak.
>>689454296>Doesn't know how to weave in abilities with autoshootingYou were the retard being wrangled in the raid. You shoot sting on mobs that stay alive for more than 30 seconds only, or while moving to another position. Stupid retard.And a hunter can AS/MS without losing a single autoshot in the cycle, YOU couldn't, but anyone decent could. Eat shit fag lmao
>>689453527yes, and? they'd killed onyxia before, yet didn't know about the debuff limit.
>>689454430>Nobody gives a fuck about your stupid dotnot to mention hunters had shit mana and youd not have enough to keep uptime on the dot anyway
>>689454430>clearly replying to someone>no post numberwhy does this only happen in wow threads? what mental illness causes you to do this?
>>689454353I don't play retail. I was referencing to the history of the game as they updated from Vanilla. I stopped after shadowlands. Game became a predictable pattern that was tolerable but then they killed pvp with solo shuffle, woke garbage and an objectively inferior gameplay design where you hit like a wet noodle unless you burst.
>>689454517This was not the world first nor was there even footage, it was just a recorded ventrilo clip. It fits literally zero of the criteria the anon mentioned.
>>689453802Why though? All the other clothies won more tournaments, like Warlock has better CC and damage and are harder to kill, Shadow Priest as well and can heal.
>>689454430There's a difference between Vanilla wow and "Vanilla" (i.e. Classic) wow. Yeah in Classic no one is taking more than 1 hunter it's not even for Tranq it's more for kiting and pulling mobs but as someone who actually played and cleared raids in Vanilla wow you needed at least 2-3 hunters to manage the Frenzy mechanic some bosses had via the aforementioned Tranq shot. I distinctly remember our AQ40 clears taking 3 hunters pretty much throughout and we didn't have too much trouble except for Twins/C'thun.
>>689454546A third worlder who doesn't know hunter was brought in to pull trash faster, not for the (I think four?) tranq fights in the entire game. I swear the Dunning-Kruger zoomers bring into WoW threads is gold.
>they are still going in mental gymnastic circles about how people played the game at the time, but can't accept that it was challenging for them at the time and intentionally designed with this fact in mind.If the raids were designed the way TBC/Wrath raids were nooone at all would clear them and it would be a bad game. The players learned the game both mechanically and from a meta perspective which the developers reacted to by increasing the mechanical complexity of the raids until we have the retail RTWF autism fest facilitated by approaching 20 years of accrued knowledge. Naxxramas was incredibly challenging for it's time, there is no argument. There is nothing controversial about the statement "for it's time".
>>689454165That's probably true but I like most players don't particularly care about killing dragons or NPCs in general. Logistics seems more interesting.
>>689454793I don't care about your stupid argument
>>689454404>drastically different numbers and relative percentagesYou okay in the head, anon?
>>689454512>huntards think weaving GCDs between autoswings is skillWarriors have done this since 2006, even back then with autoswing addon. Press button when bar resets. woah so much skill guys watch out.At least warriors have to be melee range. you faggot room temp iq huntards just sit here and mash buttons when autoswing bar resets. Do NOT pretend it takes skill to play a huntard.The only time it ever took skill was snapshotting explosive shots in WOTLK and even then snapshotting 2 buttons isn't hard.The only class that required a modicum of skill in all of Vanilla was feral druid, and feral druid was a mid tier nobody bothered with anyway.
>>689454873>mechanics
>689454512>durrr just AS/MS on CD>n-no, I mean have to weave them into autoshooting, obviously!Doesn't even deserve the (you).Thirdie-level literacy or just retarded? You be the judge.
>>689454864>Gets BTFO>I-I-I don't c-care!lmao
>>689454873>its easy because we arent getting gearchecked as much!I mean its shorter but the mechanics are the same. Was the target dummy fight the hard part all along? Patchwerk peak boss design?
>>6894485054H was a "did you have 8 warriors with enough gear to tank" check so in that regard it was also a gear check. Sapphiron was also a gear check; your FR gear. Lotheb and Thaddius also had somewhat strict enrage timers so they were DPS gear checks.
after reading so many WoW Threads here. I come to realize that most WoWFags just want to assert that their choice of mmo is either the correct choice or the wrong choice where they'll mention FFXIV as a good alternative mmo for the WoWfags where they then list reasons why that mmo is not good enough for them.basically coming to the realization that most WoWfags are spoiled brats, refusing to compromised or relent that treat WoW as some deity they worship and grovel too.
>>689454847There is NOTHING interesting about sitting in trade for 1 hour to fill a raid and having ESL shitters drop out of impatience to fill up or refill your raid after people leave once the boss they were sniping is cleared.Especially in old wow with non-flexible lockouts.
>>689454404Not really if you compare the numbers. A dot in naxx40 doing 3k and one in naxx25 doing 5k don't compare value wise when in naxx40 dps had 5k health buffed and 15k in naxx 25
>>689454947I didn't say it was difficult. I said it was too difficult for YOU, because you clearly thought this was some major drawback of the class.Won't bother reading the rest of your post, because you haven't played the game.
>>689454831>implying people arguing about a 20-year old MMO are capable of things such as "rationale thought" or "logic"I want to live in whatever world you're living in m8.
>>689454980>reply to some random guy who wasn't involved>l-lol you got BTFO
>>689455091see >>689455005
>>689454972>manually types in post id'sHoly shit. You wear a helmet while sleeping, don't you?
>people are just more skilled nowThis is like saying dark souls is easy 10 years later because of all the youtube guides and info. Also why does no one ever talk about how much they dumbed down or 'fixed' the game so players can't handicap themselves by overlooking things like energy ticks/hunter deadzone/stance switching?
>>689455080most people here are criticizing vanilla wow calling it overrated.you seem like a FF14 tranny trying to falseflag to me. kill yourself.
>>689455080it's the only game most of them play
i miss the simplicity of older WoW
>>689454671>ask for proof 40man raiding guilds didn't know about the debuff limit>get proof 40man raiding guilds didn't know about the debuff limit>b-b-b-b-but it w-w-w-wasn't a w-w-w-w-world f-f-f-f-first!!lmao
>>689452375I wouldn't shit on 1.12 as some people do though, some classes just having entirely useless talent trees kind of sucked.
>>689455092I'm not even the anon who was replying to you. I just jumped in because it's disgusting to see huntards thinking their class, let alone in vanilla, was hard.Hunters are statistically the little timmy spec children play and least skilled pug performance average in the player pool. Judging by how retarded you are assuming I was the previous guy speaking to you and unable to check IPs, it checks out.
>>689448062>bring 8 fully geared warrior tanksNigga, how many guilds had 8 tanks back then?
>>689455325What is even being argued here? You spammed dots on Ony while she was in the air to keep her from casting deep breath. The point wasn't to maximize effectiveness it was to simply make sure she had max dots on her at all times until she landed.
>>689455289WOTLK to MoP is peak because the game is better while still being the high consistency in damage and value in your abilitiesWoD is shit because WoD has no content, but it also enters this range.Legion is the point of no return, when you have no damage outside burst. You can thank Mythic+ for killing the game's natural feel and gameplay design because this class balance was done around it.
>>689455289I too miss WoD arms warrior gameplay
>>689445415arguably more difficult (less people downed KT than most mythic endbosses on retail) but not for execution reasons. the game design itself and the lack of resources for raiding was what made it hard. the logistics of wrangling 40 retards in an age without strict guides for everything, barely anyone knowing how to play their class, when progression was linear and there was no catch-up gear to get new characters ready to step into naxx a week after it released, all of that compounded to make achieving a KT kill one hell of a feat.
>>689455595There was no catch-up gear in 2019 either.the catch-up was ZG and AQ20.
>>689455542MoP was also burst window gameplay
>>689455005Patchwerk is peak cause healers get to sweat for a change while dps can continue their dick measuring in peace
>>689455719but it never dropped consistency or nerfed damage values outside of it. It never removed the fun. That started with Legion, and you didn't notice it because of the borrowed power.When BFA came it was obvious to the common player, and the game was barebones (pruned) while having no damage outside of burst windows.
>>689455719and the pvp was fast paced/skilled for itif you were good you could live two dps bursting on you as a healer.Now you may live a burst window, but they will just hug the pillar and stall and kill you 100% on the next one.before at least with skill you could live forever. there was weight in your ability. Now you're locked by cooldowns.
>>689455005WOTLK Naxx was more fun than Vanilla Naxxwhy? because I could solo heal the whole thing for fat 99 parses.hell, parsing culture is the only reason WOTLK raiding was fun. I can't imagine people bothering to PvE without it.
>>689455542>boomkin in wotlk>95% of your aoe damage comes from pressing starfall, a 1.5 minute cooldown???
>>689454404No they are not. Absolutely not. They redesigned whole encounters. No frozen runes, heigans gauntlet room, 4hm automatically run to their corners, you don't need materials from trash to build your T3, razuvious scream doesn't straight up kill players anymore, 2 priests are enough to MC the adds and that's just what comes to mind. I'm sure they changed more. Also they didn't really change health and damage values that much for the lv80 25 man re-release. Vanilla Naxx was much harder on lv60 players.
>>689456191Most honest wrath tranny.
>>689455464>he thinks deep breath wasn't random
>>689456292Not to mention the abilities that level 80 characters have compared to level 60s. The cooldowns and basic abilities are insane. The amount of AOE healing alone makes most of the fights much easier.
>>689445415It can't really be measured because every retail and classic player cheats with addons now.
>>689456292the health and damage values are the real kicker there, back when i played wotlk pservers they would flat buff the entire instance by anywhere from 1.5x to even 2.5x damage and health and it would still be cleared day 1it's just an EXTREMELY undertuned raid
>>689456321nothing wrong with that statementPvE was merely means to gain PvP gear in old WoWwith parsing at least you can have a resume of greatness or a trophy out of the activity.>>689456220cherry-picking. Also boomies are low IQ niggers and they don't matter.
>Half the world first race is people fiddling with addons that tell them exactly what to do and when to do it.Is this Blizzard's fault for allowing it or the players for accepting it?
>>689445415They're difficult for different reasons. PCs couldn't run the raids at the time, the netcode infrastructure was rough which is why spell batching was a thing and meta 1.12 talents weren't in place yet. Then you add all ontop of that the AH prices on servers that were a max of 2500 and before botting was prominent around the end of TBC. You were spending epic mount money on consumables a week and raiding 8 hours a day, 4 times a week. I was one of those raiders and we made it to KTZ without a clear. Four Horseman was a filter to 90% of the hardcore raid guilds.Modern raiding is ilvl checks for tanks, dps & heals depending on the fight and relying on DBM. Rotations have almost hit Wrath era of easy. Most specs you mash your head on a keyboard pressing the buttons that light up and pop CDs off cooldown.They're both difficult for different reasons. But retail WoW has just been ilvl checks and the last real difficult raid we had was Tomb of Sargeras.
>>689456412I think the biggest factor is the new abilities and toolkit a lvl 80 has over a lvl 60 back then.The rest is just simple damage tuning because it became a phase 1 raid. And also because the devs stated they wanted to make it accessible. It was definitely easier than back then, but not because of mechanical differences. The mechanics were the same. The scream of razuvious is there. Trash mechanics don't really matter. It's trash. The only mechanical difference is you don't need many priests but no shit it's 25man now not 40man.
I feel like I was far ahead of the curve back in the day. I used to be a quake pro and got sucked into vanilla wow. Game was piss easy. I played a hunter and made a fortune by killing the epic quest bow demons for the entire server basically lol
>>689456902>PCs were worse!my south american toaster ran WoW at >60fps no problem>netcode worseI played from Argentina at age of 15 and never had lag issues.>AH prices!never had issues enchanting my gear or buying consumables for the raid session back then. If anything less people = easier money making.>Modern raids gatekeepyes, this is one thing that made it harder back then is that people didn't gatekeep shitters enough.The rest of the reasons is trying to scavenge reasons to justify your opinion.
Addons ruined the game, you shouldn't know the dps of anyone. Everyone should have the same game.
>>689455325Anon are you retarded? I wasnt the one who mentioned world first, it was the other guy who said there was an abundance of footage of firsts that did it. You have not provided any proof, youve provided a ventrilo meme without even a screenshot of the fight, no proof that they were ever even raiding onyxia in the first place.
>>689457229I just PvP'd in Vanilla. didn't have time to PvE.I had Grand Marshal because my little brother would play my Warrior while I was doing homework or playing Tennis so while not playing I was grinding 4 hours a day of Alterac Valley honor.
>>689456191>healing parses LOL
>>689445415Naxxramas was built by the same blizzard who believed the original honor system to be a good design.
>>689457551Addons made the game easier? yesAddons ruined the game? noonly shitters dislike addons because it helps good players gatekeep the shitters out of their groups.
Alright /v/ answer me this, what is the best raid between Vanilla-TBC-Wrath and why?
>>689457641>no proof that they were ever even raiding onyxia in the first place.my god, the utter desperation
>>689457728dps always cry and complain about healing parses but at the end of the day the 99 p/a Priest gets in into the top 10 guilds over the person applying with no parses.>>689457731This is a logical fallacy. I'm just too famished atm to identify what type.
>>689457742I've played actually competitive games and done quite well in them. Like dota2 and counterstrike. WoW is an RPG and should be immersive and having fun with friends, not a sweaty dps-chasing shitfest it turned into.
>>689457840karazhan.
>>689457893>dota2>competitive
>>689457840ICC > UlduarUlduar was horrible to pug. ICC was more pug friendly.Both are up there though. TBC raids were honestly shit with no mechanics. The best TBC raid is Karazhan, from aesthetic, size and general design alone, but it still suffers from pre WOTLK raiding where the mechanics are barebones.
>>689457850You mean the utter desperation to try to use a voice clip of a wipe meme as proof? Quite the step down from the claim of the supposed abundant first kill footage.
>>689457893go play PSO if you want fun with friendsI'm here to parse 99 and get out, or get Gladiator, kill people like you who think we're to sing kumbaya and make friends, then get out.
>>689457854>the 99 p/a Priest gets in into the top 10 guilds over the person applying with no parses.no top 10 guild cares about healing parses dude. Get real.
>>689458009>dota 2 isnt competitive>world of warcraft is
>>689445415I've been casually playing classic for a bit and after checkout out war within I'm a bit overwhelmed honestly, I didn't remember retail WoW being this challenging. I'm not even talking about mythic raiding, the Dungeons alone have more mechanics than ever and puggig m+ can be horrific. It's a bit like the first weeks of the pre-nerf cata dungeons but much worse.
>>689457840AQ40. Music and ambience are SOVL. Huge labyrinthian design with a raid on mounts.
>>689445415I managed just fine in aq40 as a teenage retard that stood in everything so it couldn't have been too hard.
>>689458083it's funny because pso1's skill floor exceeds you
>>689457742Addons ruined the game by enabling faux-speedrun parse cultureThey're not the only culprit, flying, phasing, cross-server play, wow token, raid-based class design and change of creative leads are equally as responsible though
>>689458490>flying, phasing, wow tokenyeah these really enabled parse culture
>>689457357Why do you lie? Ok, since you were there back then post your armory age.
>>689458224First weeks of pre-nerf Cata were the most fun I'd had in WoW since TBC heroic farming. I knew I wasn't the target demographic anymore when they nerfed it and started disengaging from the game. Still took me until Legion to quit entirely but that was the first true step in the wrong direction for me.
>>689458490It destroyed people just having fun together and made it into a competition.
>>689458087correct take, anon. since healing parses are limited by how much your raid actually takes damage, higher parses say nothing about your skill, only the lack of skill of the people you grouped with. it's flat out impossible to parse high with a good group because there's simply not enough damage to heal.obviously they need you to display some level of skill so they won't just take anyone but having 99 parses is a total non-factor unlike for DPS players.
>>689458623He's describing what ruined the game, if my reading comprehension is better than yours.
>>689458673top 10 guilds spend a lot of time farming guilds that are just below top 10, they dont really look at parses, dps or healing, at all because a 99 parser in a rank 1000 guild just isnt really even competing at the same level. Top 10 gets incredibly closed circle because of this, you would have to play a lot of politics and play in the guilds that get cucked by the bigger guilds to even have a chance.
>>689450153>>689450310At one point, wasn't it literally impossible for two groups to do Nefarian at the same time?
>>689457840Kara>Ulduar>Naxx 40Runner up: BT, AQ40
>>689458830His post does not read as such, but he obviously lost the red thread halfway through and just went on to list general complaints to pad the list.
>>689456884Blizzard banned that draw on the floor WotLK addon and star augur WA functionality pretty quickly. Why shouldn't players take every advantage they can if devs aren't against it?
>>689454165>I'm glad the game changed to give more agency and weight on player ability.by that you mean they officially integrated deadly boss mods and called it a day
>>689448062The hardest thing about raiding in classic WoW was getting 40 competent people together.
>>689458471it's funny because I have top 5 timers in all challenge modes in Ephinea. If you think addons are a problem, then that means you don't like it when they don't invite you because they see your low DPS.Don't excuse your shitty performance by blaiming the tool that allows others to gatekeep you.NEVER heard a good player complain about addons because they're there to help the shitters perform better and ergo clear content without problem to get what you want.You can still play with friends and have damage meters just fine. It doesn't even alter your performance besides pushing you to perform better.
>>689457357>the literal trailers for patches are running the game at sub 10-20 fps>the game couldn't handle a couple hundred at AQ launchLying retail faggot>
>>689458087Healing parses matter in Retail. IDK about classic wow since healers are just dispel bots there. They matter from WOTLK and up.I much rather get a skilled healer who can solo heal over a housewife with a green parses with valanyr. This is irrefutable.
>>689445415Nothing classic was difficult. WoW only ever got harder with each expac.
>>689458673a healer solo-healing an entire raid, doing the job of 2 showcases skill.two healers solo-healing 25m showcases skill.
>>689445415I wish retail was difficult outside mythics and raids.
>>689458083>>689459276>i just want to skip to the end as fast as possible Why do wow players continue to play a game they don't actually like?
>>689459348>>689458624buttblasted redneck samefag upset he couldnt get a proper pc back then.
>>689459405Healing parses never mattered. Certainly not in fucking Wrath, the single most braindead healing meta to ever exist.
Name a raid worse than HyjalProtip: you cant
>>689459276thank you for proving that the focus on endgame raiding ruined everything good about WoW.
>>689459405>Healing parses matter in Retail. IDK about classic wow since healers are just dispel bots there. They matter from WOTLK and up.no they dont bro. Please, get help. a 99 healing parse means absolutely nothing. DPS parses matter some, but healing parses do not matter what so ever. Healing is not a per second measure, its a zero sum game based on how much extra damage people can soak without dying and how little the other healers heal to let you pad. There is no skill aspect to healing parses, it is just a matter of other people propping you up.
>>689445802That and knowledge about encounters and all that wasn't shit you'd get in a single button click, thotbot wasn't THAT great.Now you can just open the codex and they explain every single mechanic every boss has and you can google some strategies that make bosses piss easy.Gear is also way easier to obtain now than before and like you said, it's easier to coordinate + there's way less people.The bosses are definitely harder mechanically but it's hard to really compare WoW from back then to WoW now.
>>689457357>>689459595Why are third worlders always consistently the worst posters? What the fuck is even the point of lying about this?
>>689459530Raids aren't fun. They're gear acquisition for PvEPvEshitters truly deserve the rope.what fun is there mingling with 24 strangers doing something extremely easy and watching them unable to perform?The only fun is pvp. by yourself or with friends. but there's nothing fun in PvE. There's no teamwork. your raid leader yelling for a shitter to perform a single task is not fun from his pov. carrying people is not fun.WoW genuinely makes you see how terrible the average player is IQ wise.
>>689459525this literally requires every other player to be at the top of their game when it comes to avoidable damage. you can put out the full theoretical maximum throughput at the pinnacle of human achievement, but if your guys are standing in the fire you're not going to be able to solo heal the raid. that's just not how it works.parsetrannies are so fucking stupid lmao.
>>689459604t.- green parsing hpally who can't solo heal ICC10man. >>689459657go play a single player game if you wanna be cute and not put the effort. don't waste other people's time if you're not going to try your best.>>689459665granted you can really pad or even get a buddy to help you solo heal and just emergency heal, but I'll still take a solo healed 10man 99 p/a healer over a girlgamer anyday. Parses for healers may not have the same weight as for DPS, but they still factor in when choosing a healer for your pug or for your guild run. I'd also wager solo healing takes more skill depending on class and expansion than mashing your dps rotation.
>>689447943The current boss that's being worked on in the latest Mythic raid is a pretty tight dps check. Either more gear is expected or it'll see its hp clipped slightly.
>>689459995you got it backwards.in order to parse 99 healers purposedly stand in damage to pad their numbers. they even ASK the raid to stand in fire to pop the power word shields or to let the rejuvs tick for healing.
>>689460064no, really anon, you don't have to keep proving that point. i'm glad you're happy with the way WoW turned out.
>>689447943Depends on if you start progging before or after Blizz nerfs the everloving shit out of the boss' HP because they can't balance the game to save their lives.
was everquest harder than wow?
>>689459665even DPS parses are retarded, they get padded hard by shit like having other people stop dps during execute phases so the execute classes can pump their numbers. parses very quickly stopped meaning anything after their invention, only the wannabes give a shit.
>>689459995>you can put out the full theoretical maximum throughput at the pinnacle of human achievement,overhealing doesnt contribute though. It will only count your contribution of actual empty health bar healing. If you put out the full theoretical maximum throughput, the vast majority of it would be wasted mana that is not counted towards parse.
>>689459632Hyjal, because Hyjal deserves to get shit on twice.
>>689459995way to out yourself as a sub-performer.in parsing, you WANT to break the PW:S because Rapture gives you Rage/energy/mana/resource. Same with rejuv ticks because they also give resource from revitalize.It's a mutually beneficial thing healers get their padding and you get higher dps.good healers will also ask tanks to put some DPS gear on so they can pad on them to heal.
>>689452282Uh, 1024x768 is all you need, zoomie.
>>689459632It's a toss up between hyjal and ToC. At least hyjal was cinematic. In ToC you're locked in a cuck cage fighting random worms and some literally who "pvp" champions
>>689460159please read the full reply chain before making retarded posts, thanks.
>>689460238It was more of the same, tedious bullshit pushed to an extreme where if you made it through it felt good, and you got mad and said anything easier was shit.
>>689460209I'm glad this thread has proved that Vanilla boomers are washed and shit players compared to latter expansion players and high-performing individuals who get 99p/as and give their best.get fucking GATEKEPT. go play mario kart in the couch with your friends. If Im going to be forced to play with strangers to beat content, they fucking better perform properly.
>>689445415I have only played Cataclysm, Pandaria and TBC Classic™ onwards to Cata.Old raids were mechanically easier, and rotations were easier too, but there were a lot of stress involved, you had to play ideally on some classes. Our warrior tank wore leather and he had to be fully focused on each pull, because aggro = dead dd, and aggro was very hard to maintain. I have played Holy Paladin, if my heal was 0.3 seconds late - dead tank. And I had to downrank, cancel cast and chug potions, because mana management was stressful as fuck.Now compare to cata and pandas. In Cata I hardly drink even 1 mana potion for the full T11 HC raid tier, sometimes don't even use mana gain abilities, and downranking (when you use low-rank spell which heals less but it costs less mp) doesn't exist: I have much more breathing room when managing my mana. Easier to tank as well: I have played BDK in first tier raid in Pandas, and I don't think about getting aggro, I don't look in a threat meter even. But if some guy fails a mechanic - it's really bad, most likely a wipe for the whole raid. And in Classic there is a room for mistakes, you have as many BR as many druids there are in your raid.
>>689459632I can't. It quite literally is the worst raid they've ever made. Every single boss, including Archimonde, is boring beyond belief. You cannot speed up the agonizingly slow trash, either, because killing fast just means you have to afk for next. On top of that, the trash is so mindless that there's a good chance people will literally fall asleep, and you won't even notice until the boss arrives because they wouldn't need to be doing anything until then.To cap it all off, it's just replaying something that already happened in a much more interesting way in the game it first appeared in (WC3 final mission). There is no use of the time travel/infinite dragonflight gimmick at all to shake things up.The only comparably bad raid would be Trial of the Crusader, which was so barebones it takes you out of the mise en scene. ToC can at least claim to have some fun bosses, however.
>>689445802WoW has always been about wrangling enough competent retards together. However, the individual player skill requirement has increased a fuck ton since Vanilla. Raids at some point crossed a certain threshold of "how many mechanics does the raid need to stop DPS for, so they avoid some dogshit spell queueing overlaps" into "wow let's just overlap all the mechanics of the last few bosses of the raid naturally" which is really annoying and I can't tell if we just enjoy dogshit game design or not. Couple that with the fact that more mechanics keep cropping up that involve one person not fucking up. Mythic raiding has every requirement to make the barrier to entry insufferable especially if we consider last tier's raid (which was really just the final 2 hell hole since the tuning for everything else was an absolute joke).
>>689460524>parsetranny outs xerself as not having a guild and being forced to play with randoms (gee i wonder why lmao)
>>689460398TOGC was great.No trashin and out quick. fastest GDKP gold everNo non-sense, do your bosses and get out.Wished all raids were quick gear acquisition and performance execution so I can go pvp or get my parses and go play something else.
>>689460524>If Im going to be forced to play with strangers to beat content, they fucking better perform properly.you were never forced to play with strangers, that was all your choice. so again, please and thank you, for proving why WoW went to shit.
>>689459632Hyjal's biggest sin is the trash waves taking forever.It's an excellent case study in which proves nobody wants to do trashnot even rep or bijous or trash mob epic boes can make it fun if the trash takes forever to drop and there's a lot of empty travel just to hit the mobs.
>>689449523the only challenge to healing was staying awake anyway
>>689460661anon this might be a shock for you butyour guildies are strangers you don't know in real life.
>>689460398>>689459632ToGC was at least somewhat fun, Hyjal was really boring, worse than SSC with its endless trash packs, worse than Naxx/Sarth/Maly, worse than Dragon Soul. It was awful.
>>689460661any group content in WoW, no matter the expansion, is a group effort in which 99.99% of groups will be with a stranger. Whether random pug or guildie.Your discord mutual is still a stranger. online acquaintances are not friendships unless you have been friends for a long time and eventually met offline.
>>689460568Kinda fucked up ToC could have been cool if they went back on some older cut ideas for earlier parts of the expac, and made the raid a more prominent Nerubian raid. Break the floor after the first or second boss, have some faction champion(s) take the chaos as a means to ambush the raid, and explore a bigger underground zone.Which i realize is basically "ToC, but it's just not ToC almost immediately", but ToC really highlights were a lot of things started going down hill.
>>689459778It's not like I even insulted either games. I like both versions of WoW. I don't even think Vanilla had South American servers back then. It was just NA & Oceanic from memory. I was on Khaz'goroth.
The concept of "on the shoulders of giants" is lost on zoomers.Even someone as brilliant and arrogant as Isaac Newton could be humble and salient enough to make this observation. Zoomers are fucking doomed.
>>689460661ANY multiplayer game quick-play or team activity is playing with a stranger unless you know that person IRL.so yes, the argument stands. I don't want to interact with ESLs, children, or god knows what sick bastard behind the screen. I'm here to get my character powerful so i can kill them in pvp.
>>689448958does it really count as clicking if it's a healer? it's like complaining that complaining that your diner waitress needs to count on her fingers
>>689460904and i was not forced to play with them, i chose to.>>689461018same as above, i was not forced to do anything with anyone. >>689461164one more time, as above
>>689460524>>689460904Why does wow attract so many people who don't like mmos? Imagine if somebody played an fps all day but then they said that they don't like shooting people. Is it any surprise when things like classic are a huge success when the modern version of the game is played by people who don't actually like massive multiplayer online games?
>>689461048I lived in SA too. I played in american servers. My ping was like 115. Not the best ping but it didn't matter to play warrior. i just mashed the ability while on the GCD and i didnt feel any lag. then again i was also young and just playing WoW from RO was mindblowing.
>>689456884It's what happens when a game becomes an e-sport and people play it for money. If you're not toeing the line between what's legit and what's cheating, then you're not going to win.
>>689461019They were desperately rushing to get stuff outwotlk had tons of recycling and content droughts (people forget onyxia was also recycled) which lead to a lot of players quitting. There was tremendous churn of people quitting just as fast as new players were joining, so while the population line looked stable, it was incredibly turbulent.
>>689461218>the ONLY way to get the bis gear and achieve results is by forced team activitiesyes. if you want to win, you HAVE to do it. ergo, you're forced to deal with the logistics and interacting with pugs/guildies.
>>689461048Hardware was not capable of running the game at 60 fps back in the day, that's why all footage of the game from back then is at a lower frame rate.
>>689452413h*alers aren't people
>>689460904My guildies are my bros and I love them.
>>689461267Most FF troons don't like MMOS either. they just use it as a glorified chatroom to mingle and play the sims. You attract what you pander to.old vanilla and TBC is a different demographic than WOTLK - WoD, and that is also a different gameplay than Legion to modern day.
why did WoW come back from the dead the past 3 xpacs?
>>689461267Because that was WoW's initial and continual success. It was designed to have less MMO systems/mechanics than it's contemporaries. That way it evolved through expansions was a continual streamlining of instanced raiding content. WoW has irrevocably ruined the mass MMO market and every new MMO is fucked from having WoW players try it out. WoW players only like WoW (Raiding/Arena) and will recoil at any MMO that expands upon its MMO mechanics.
>>689461267and like clockwork, a friendless tranny is upset at the empirical truth.Your discord friends are not IRL friends.Your guildies are not IRL friendsyou don't KNOW these people. It's ok when you're 13 and playing games and are lonely and you just want to play with someonebut you're 18+ now, stop wasting time in relationships that have no future or investment.If I have to mingle with others, it's for a mutually beneficial transaction that is raiding for your gear/parse/arena ratingIf you can tolerate it, you have as much right to play as sad people who crave social interaction online.If you can't tolerate, go play single player games.It's ok to play MMOs by yourself. People have been doing it since Runescape came out.
>>689461404at that point why not go play a single player game with programmable bots since it's obvious you don't like the multiplayer part of MMOs
>>689459407Wrong.Vanilla players could clear the game without addons.Retail players need addons to function and cannot even clear classic content without world buff exploits.Vanilla players were better players playing a more difficult game. Fact.
>>689461808Xenoblade Chronicles is basically a single player MMOFF12 is a single player MMOMMOs are not limited to only being social games. they have gameplay that can be enjoyed by yourself.
>>689461697I think people somehow got it in their head Microsoft would fix a lot of the problems Activision caused. (At least all the lay offs are funny). People got tricked by Metzen telling them to come back. Season of Discovery seemed to be received pretty well, until it wasn't. Classic brought back a bit of a resurgence, but that seems to be tapering off now.
>>689461798retards like you are why the genre died
>>689445415>plays with tbc pre patch buffs>wonders why the shit is easybased retard zoomer
>>689461967>they have gameplay that can be enjoyed by yourselfThey really don't, the actual combat and rpg systems are always garbage because anything too complicated would get in the way of the massive multiplayer part of the game.
>>689461798based and truthpilledVanilla boomers BTFOI'm not here to mingle with you /v/ faggots. You guys are the worst of the worst.This mentality is the same with WoW. I'm here to shitpost and get out. WoW players are there to enjoy the content and get out.Perhaps the ones that are wrong are those who want social craving from MMOs instead of real life.
>>689461798this anon was burned hard by bad online interactions and it shows
>>689460225This is one of the bigger issues I have with the game now. They nerfed the only other competent mythic boss last tier before anyone could really call it that much of an issue. Then suddenly half the guilds that clear mythic were stuck on the second to last boss forever because we weren't meant to be there. It's just an endless cycle of them sending out raid content at absurd levels without testing any of the math, and then slowly nerfing it over the entirety of the patch so they all become a participation award. The goal is to continually design fights for sub 10 guilds to experience in their original state (realistically 3-4 guilds if they're lucky), and then nerf them until they're a joke.Bonus points if changes conveniently come out when the Dev team's mythic guild is on the boss.
>>689445415https://youtu.be/oK0iHD780Lw?feature=shared&t=118Naxx is still fucking retards in 2024 though
>>689454165>Hence it wasn't really hard. Just time-consuming.So it was hard, just not in the way that you want because you're an autistic soulsfag
>>689455082It's interesting to anyone who's not autistic, proving my point>>689462258
What >>689455463 said + by Naxx release (June 2006, raid was only cleared in September 2006), it was already common knowledge that Burning Crusade was around the corner, with BC pre-patch being released in December 2006. Nobody wanted to bother on the hardest raid ever released at this point, knowing BC would reset all their progress.
>>689462119You can enjoy both single player games and MMOsYou can enjoy MMOs by only socializing when needed because the content demands it.It's perfectly ok. It's also what has economically been successful for blizzard.Look. I play Project Gorgon. The most old school MMO exploration socializing kino you can get in 2024. I enjoy it because of the small tight-knit community. The gameplay is fucking barebones, but fun.I can get why a game with better gameplay like WoW could be enjoyed just for the gameplay with 1 or 2 IRL friends.But I'd never touch Retail WoW and play it by myself. That sounds miserable.
did people actually have their lives ruined by WoW?
>>689462379>The BC cope.>We could clear it but we're not going to...
>>689462154Not really. Met my best friend thanks to WoW. We've been friends for like 15 years.But I would not play WoW if it wasn't for my small group of friends. Absolutely FUCK socially engaging with the average WoW PuG. They're beyond retarded ESLs/pajeets/little children.Best you can do is join a guild and socialize there, but even there most of them are boring normalfags.
>>689445415>A lot of people say retail wow is really difficult, but how does it compare to naxx/aq40 in 2006?well there wasn't 20 years of game theory, multiple guides, discord servers and bis lists and database resources easily accessible.You had thottbot and elitist jerks and that was about it. Proliferation of information in the modern era is leagues above what it was in 2005
>>689462547at most it probably lowered grades in high school or even college but I wouldn't say ruin my life.The worst painted scenario you can say is probably missed on college pussy because you opted to play WoW with friends instead.
>>689462568>only plays the game out of habitthe average retoilet
>>689462595>it was hard to press Shadowbolt and go out of the red circle every 1 minute because you didn't have enough informationreally?
>>689462721I don't even play retail you dumb nigger but nice tryGo back to FF14 and chat in your residence for your le comfy social feel if you want that faggot shit.
>>689462815>really?
>>689462815a lot of warlocks were retarded enough to actually use dots during raids back then
>>689462258congratulations, you're retarded.There is nothing hard about filling a group advertising in Trade/LFG.It's time-consuming. It doesn't respect your time. It's just dated.The lockouts aren't flexible, forcing the community to gatekeep not to waste their lockout.Again, this is not gameplay difficulty. This is a hindrance and time sink from dated structures of old WoW.The ACTUAL raid is not hard, especially in 2024, but Classic experience still had the shitty lockouts because "muh pure retro experience"fags So the logical solution was to mega gatekeep and only go to certified GDKPs or guild runs.If anything it is thanks to old WoW's shitty mechanics that the audience has turned extremely solo-player minded.
>>689462154Do you play videogames with random anons on /v/? do you add them to your steam friends list?If you don't, you're a hypocrite because he's not wrong.
>>689445415Retail is literally 100x harder. Its not even comparable>>689445802This is GIGA cope.
>>689463642>Do you play videogames with random anons on /v/? do you add them to your steam friends list?yeah
>>689455032Did you really needed 8 geared warriors? Couldn't paladins/druids do it if they played outstandingly well?For example, there was a boss in WotLK Classic (and in original WotLK as well) called Algalon the Observer. Tanks were getting hit with such force that only Prot Paladins could barely withstand the flurry of strikes that Algalon delivered to them. And % of DKs, Warriors and bears was really low in the first week. Many guilds (including mine) didn't even clear it in the 1st month because of the 1 hour try timer. However, the best warrior player with enough external saves could defeat Algalon, and I don't know for sure but I believe there were such people.So with Naxx it's the same: I think with proper defensive buffs and cooldown usage prot paladins could tank 4 Horsemen. People just didn't want to learn and put effort. Because warrior gameplay was like of a gorilla.
>>689463680>This is GIGA cope.
>>689463680Retail has more complex mechanics and more skill-based than gear/prep based.It was only hard because the lockouts are not flexible and people didn't have resources back then, but actual videogame gameplay difficulty? not at all.
>>689463895>no argumentWhat a surprise.
>>689463885your guild is shit. you don't need dPS tanking Algalon lmao.Prot Pallies were the best tanks of all WOTLK so no shit not just for algalon. Bears could do it just fine because of their high armor and hp pools btw.
>>689447530>100 pingTry more like 200 or 300, a lot of people were still on dial up or primitive DSL
>The game designed for 33 year old retards who have only played WoW for the majority of their life 10 hours a day is harder yo! Don't rate evaluates things based on their context within linear time! Isaac Newton was a RETARD YO, even I a high school physics student know more than him!
>>689464137Who are you even arguing with?
>>689464136Seriously, 100-150 ping is more than playable for anything early wow of all things threw at people. It really is those 250+ delays that will start fucking you, and even then if you paid attention you could preempt a ton of shit.
>>689464058Prot pallies were the best tanks that's right, but the thing is - we didn't HAVE enough of them. We had fucking warrior and DK, and we couldn't do it faster because of them. Well not really because of the class, but because they couldn't put max effort to time their defensives and anticipate Alga quadra strikes by a millisecond. Same with healers: a well-timed heal and atomically precise mana management make a lot of difference.
>>689464682Sounds like yall suck anon.
>>689464814So did you need 8 warriors to tank 4horsemen or you could do it with 4 tanks of any class?
>>689465045Huh? Thought we were talking about algalon?
>>689465045Naxx didn't matter. you could do it with anything. hell even locks could tank the casters in the back.Algalon needed geared tanks, ideally Prot Pallies cause they're busted. But you could tnak Algalon with any geared tank. Except Warriors. They were the worst tanks of WOTLK.
>>689445415Naxx was "hard" because you needed to herd 40 retards with enough frost resistance, gear to dps Patchwerk, gear 8 tanks for Four Horsemen. It is an absolute joke vs now. Case in point: Classic people raping the raids in like a day, with proper gearing and contemporaneous knowledge and sims
>>689445802The actual difficulty back then was low info and shit hardware.
>>689445415don't expect to get an answer here. actual high level raiding in retail takes a minimum of social skill to find the people that are worth doing it with, you won't find that on /v/.
>>689465542But there's already been dozens of good answers. Are you retarded?
>>689465180I was originally asking about Vanilla Naxx, because people are like "IT'S TOO HARD!!" and I think that some of the gear/class checks can be bypassed. And as an example I have brought up Alga, because there are class checks, but they aren't "hard checks", you can theoretically kill 25-man Alg with tank of any class at Week 1 (no BiS ulduar gear).
>>689465694Gotcha
>>689452413>>689453004>>689453103ENTER
>>689466176kino
THAT FEEL WHEN MY PRIVATE SERVER GUILD IS PROGRESSING M'URUI SEE NO NAXXBABIES MENTIONED MURU IN THE THREADCAPS LOCK FOR ATTENTION
>>689466176power auras, my beloved...
>>689445415to be fair the most difficult thing about raiding in vanilla WoW is managing to wrangle 40 retards together for the raids in the first place but once you manage that it's a breeze
>>689466329i remember my guild grinding on muru for 2 months fucking straight. fuck that guy, he was just like cthun though over tuned and when he was nerfed it was just another boss
>>689466329Thoughts on M'uru?
>>689462208>that frantic atmosphere
>>689466442>be 14yo me>having fun doing my own power auras>be 29yo me>import weak auras cause it's impossible to make your own without a master in ITi miss it sometimes.
>>689465383well yeah if something that's been done a million times for over 20 years is giga solved of course it will be a jokenow imagine playing back in the day without youtube videos up the wazoo, with WAY less available addons, and equipment/talent meta wasn't quite "solved" yetdoing that shit blind, without modern day class balance, the item databases we have now, the type of addons available, the nerd tier data down to maxing dps/heals/mitigation is insaneI always laugh at bald zoomer retards who play today with a million things to hold their little weak hands and they try to laugh at the low clear rate of naxx from back in the day, shit just wasn't the same on top of 90% of the playerbase all having SHIT tier PCs and internet connections to boot
You can boot up a private server or possibly classic wow (are they still doing fresh?) and see for yourself. No, it isn't hard. And it isn't a case like original Molten Core, where the classes and gear were completely different. Pservers and Classic emulated Naxx era vanilla.In actual Naxx, in the top raiding guild on my server, I wore 8/8 Judgement because it looked cool. That's the level of optimization and play most people had.
>>689466606>>689466729He's THE guild killer of the expansion, supposed to be the original end-of-expansion boss (from what I heard) before they threw Kiljaeden in anyway.It's a bitch of a fight. There's a ton of stuff going on but we finally saw phase 2 yesterday for the first time so I think we can kill it next raid day. This will be our third or fourth week attempting (we haven't spent a LOT of time, relatively).
>>689466729stack locks and 1 shammy in every dps groupwin
>>689466176Chinks truly are soulless.
>>689466842I still used power auras for the longest time, and was incredibly late to using weak auras. Hell, I'm pretty sure i used it during the slight dip into Shadowlands I had. It was just nice using it for shit like combo points/whatever other class generation and basic procs as opposed to the default blizzard graphics.
>>689466842>private server fags saying you NEED weakauras to raidMakes me laugh when I kill the same content they do without PTRpractice for hours and hours for meaningless server firsts.
>>689467184based
I raided in vanilla back in the day. It was hard because of the terrible ping, blizz servers were unstable as fuck when we were raiding BWL, people had sort of an idea about what gear they needed but it wasn't really enforced because it was pretty hard to find people at all, half the people playing were drunk swedes, you played at like 20fps, and most importantly most people were out of spec because you couldn't just switch specs on the fly and the cost increased every time you did so you had arms warriors in every raid instead of fury etc. You also basically had to figure out what to do during the raid itself since there were no guides.
Doing vanilla raids with 39 other retards was such kino.
>healing parsetrannies existehhehehehehehehheheeahahahahahahahhahahaha
>>689453838>Getting the car rolling when learning to drive a manual for the first time was hard>Therefore that means driving a manual is hardretard
>>689445415AQ40 and Naxx40 aren't terribly difficult. Reasons why they were hurdles is because>Blizzard was horrible dogshit at class balancing, classes flip-flopping in performance patch to patch>Finding 40 people to raid consistently with, who were good enough to perform their role without throwing a fit, is difficult>As raids went on, barrier for entry became steeper since there weren't many catch up mechanics>AQ40 and Naxx40 introduced mechanics where positions mattered more. C'thun and 4hm especially are easy to fuck up if you just don't stand in the right place. >No dungeon journals and very few resources to look up raid mechanics and how they workedMost of the difficulty was from general ignorance of what mechanics were even involved, on top of herding 40 decent people around being like herding kittens. Loot distribution alone caused a bunch of guild drama and team breakups, with player circumventions like dkp being equally awful stopgaps that needed a lot of clauses and if/then asterisks to not be abused.However, if you have a group-minded team of not selfish people, and a loot system prioritizing what benefits progression, as well as people who generally know how to play their class(even if it's a memespec: a good retadin is more valuable than a retarded warrior even if their damage is lower), the raids are very easy and very comfy. Retail raids are much easier to access, but are much more mechanically intensive to compensate. The difficulty in raiding used to be more around finding a good group that won't break down because of shitty management and manipulative players, now it's more about individual skills as a player but feels like doing arbitrary convoluted anti-fun dances than fighting bosses.
>be a mage>join guild>number 1 mage tranny has 5000 dkp>he implements a rule where you're not allowed to roll on non-tier items until you finish your tier 2 set>I had just disenchanted a couple of pieces because it's dogshit (the 8 piece bonus was incredibly overrated)
Hot take: difficulty and "mechanics" in MMOs are both bad. Doing things that aren't dpsing the boss are inherently not fun. Vanilla and TBC raid design is the best. Doing something difficult where one of 25 people can fuck up the whole thing is infuriating.
>>689452413I've always just used the default UI with mouseover macros for support abilities, and rebinding some harder to reach keys.Only time I ever felt the need for a different UI was playing a healer for a little bit. Never fucking again; it's the most boring cookie-clicker whack-a-mole shit, where you don't even see the game much of the time since you're staring at healthbars for the whole fight. I don't understand how anyone can enjoy being a healslut. Should honestly just obliterate that role from MMORPG's entirely since its sole purpose seems to be to attract women and homosexuals.
>>689471598You're actually wrong. Healing is the most engaging role, because it's the most reaction time demanding task. It's also the one task where you substantially feel powerspikes after getting geared. I've almost every DPS spec vanilla-tbc-wotlk and the only difference is parse numbers going up in logs. Getting healers geared actually makes trash pulls go 10x faster.>healslut copeClean up the mobs and give me my loot, dps peon. Tanking is fucking boring too, but patrician choice for instant grouping anywhere.
>>689471753>Can't predict raid damage and has reflexes of a snail>WAAH I'M TOO OVERWHELMED Indeed, you should stick to the lower stock roles.
>>689471753>He didn't set up Grid so that only damaged players' frames pop up in your UIYou were too retarded for the role
>>689471903>>689472028>>689472169sssshhhhh trannies
>>689472028>Reflexes>Pressing a heal button on one guy every second or two, maybe an occasional expensive heal after a damage spike.Okay lmao. >>689472169I prefer playing videogames, not user interfaces.Your role is for faggots and women, has always been dominated by faggots and women, because you're submissive little sluts who like the feelings of being carried by men.
>>689472750There's not enough depth in any of the specs to warrant a serious debate, however healing is the most difficult and immediately punishing. In other words, you're saying you're worse than troons? I understand your perspective though, I've dpsed all the PvE content pre-wotlk, ultimately it's so autopilot I was watching TV shows on 2nd screen more than the game. But someone's gotta bite the bullet and do the mind numbing task of spamming rotations, thank you for your service.
>>689471598But TBC and Vanilla had several raid encounters that could be completely fucked up by a single person in the raid being retarded. You had shit like Flame Wreath and Living Bomb, for example.
>>689473448I WILL NOT MOVE
Nah niggas you tricked me once into this "vanillas is hard" bs and i won't fall for it again. It was braindead easy that it wasn't even fun.
>>689447530>100 pingLook at this rich motherfucker
Naxx is so easy it makes me fall asleep
The fact is that raid clear times get less with every expansion. Nu-wow trannies solely justify playing retail by saying its about the raiding and the skill required, but the numbers tell a different story.
if I started playing vanilla WoW right now would there still be people to play with?
>>689452730>serpent sting doing 20% of your damageyeah if you are a mouthbreathing auto afk shitter like you, lmao kys
>>689458673>it's flat out impossible to parse high with a good group because there's simply not enough damage to healWith a good group you're able to pull constantly. That's only possible if the healer is good thus he's getting high parses. You don't know anything.
>>689479008>You don't know anything.How ironic
