>>693899942
ToyoCHADo doesn't want his/Toriyama's creations in FLOPPING Zero

>>693899942
No one reads the manga. Also fuck this arc.

>>693899942
they don't have rights to the manga

>>693899942
I don't know who that is but that doesn't look like a Dragon Ball design.

>>693899942
They’re saving him for much later. Right now they’re milking the game by selling characters who should’ve been in the base game as DLC. Once they run out of characters, you’re gonna start to see Moro, Merus, Gas, Ultra Ego Vegeta, Ultra Instinct Susanoo, Granolah, Black Frieza, and the Saiyamen.

>>693899985
FPBP
Granolah is too good for this game.

>>693899942
Maybe a DLC, but I think they're waiting till he shows up in something animated to put him in. None of the manga characters have even made it to Dokkan yet

>>693900241
Has there been any mention of plans to further animate the Super manga after Daima is done?

>>693900307
Not that I've heard. I would think they'd at least do an OVA or something, but Toei hates money

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>>693899942
Because everything in that entire arc is a fucking farce. Same reason there's no Ultra Ego.

>>693900307
>further animate
the manga was based on the anime until that finished, so it seems unlikely. The Super Manga is in the same position GT is. Worse, actually, seeming as they can't even get the rights sorted out for vidya.

>>693900408
>seeming as they can't even get the rights sorted out for vidya
Crazy since Super was coming out in V-Jump, a magazine made to promote video games.

no ultra ego
no buy

>>693899942
>actually Goku didn't get as strong as he is because of sheer determination it's because Bardock (who's way less cool now) wished for his kids to thrived using super special dragon balls that have always existed (fuck raditz though)
There's no Toriyama came up with this right? This has to be Toyotaro fanfiction

>>693900403
>nigger hair
fucking lmao

>>693900403
Still can't believe DC copied this so shamelessly

>>693900464
More like ultra jobo

BIG
BLACK
FRIEZA

>>693900680
Jobjeta can't even get a win when he gains a new form, shit is pathetic.

>>693900718
tail

>>693900634
Care to explain. Please?

>>693899942
He's not canon is why.

>>693901074
This. Super is a non canon spin off series.

>>693901283
Just like OG and GT, agreed.
Only Z is canon.

>>693899942
Because he sucks
Worst character we've ever gotten
There are things you could do to make this arc not the worst DB arc of all time. Gas and the other heaters weren't the worst enemies ever. The bardock flashback is kino if you change the wording of his wish a bit.
It's all just granolah as a concept that ruins everything.

What are the most boring characters to play in sparking zero?

>>693900403
Did you not watch RoF

>>693899942
Nobody cares about the manga. Also
>heterochromia
lmao

>>693902418
That's not homophobia, he has a magic alien chuuni eye

>>693901938
Him being a retard shitter is what makes the first half of the arc work

>>693899942
Bandis licence only covers animated content.
They have actually lent against this a bit though by including moves that were in the manga but were not in the anime versions of those arcs.

>>693901938
it's the best super arc fuck off

I don't care about Toyotaco fanfiction.

>>693900586
Firstly they never explicitly say he made that wish it's one he considered, secondly such a wish may well have largely exhausted it's power keeping them off planet Vegeta when it exploded. I doubt it's meant to be a case of everything they are came from a wish

Granolah and the Heater Gang's arcs interesting in concept but absolutely fucking terrible in execution.

>>693903131
Pretty much.

>>693903131
Kinda
Gran's mostly worked though was a bit screwed by the movie-ish pacing, but Gas was really weirdly understated for how much screen time he got

>>693899942
Legal fuckery.

>>693903131
One of the biggest issues for me was the fact that they used the Dragon Balls to become stronger... Why couldn't they be as strong as Goku and Vegeta through normal means (genetics, training, etc)?

>>693899942
Besides the legal problems it was non-canon filler made by Toyotaro. Toriyama (RIP) ignored everything Toyotaro wrote for the manga after the Tournament of Power and wrote Superhero as a sequel for Broly.

>>693903609
Goku and Vegeta are so stupidly strong that's its just as dumb to state these randos are just as powerful because of training and genetics

>>693903791
how else are you going to introduce new antagonists to a shonen?

>>693903609
Because that's literally part of the point of the arc anon
This is like getting mad that Zamasu took over a mortal's body

>>693903896
Power people down. Or, switch to a different fucking protagonist.

>>693903769
Toriyama literally worked on the manga with Toyo

>>693903896
Post Golden Frieza arcs got by by introducing other universes and that's why it ended when Goku fought the strongest in the 12 universes

>>693903972
Toriyama made the scripts for Super and Toei along with Toyotaro adapted the scripts on their own way. Toriyama also made corrections and suggestions for both sides.
If you want to say "Toriyama literally worked on the manga with Toyo", that's also true for Toei and Toriyama, you read one of his last interviews where he talks how involved he was in the production of Superhero.

>>693904106
you can read*

>>693904106
No I mean, right up until his actual last days he was literally in the studio looking over Toyo's shoulder and suggesting shit for the post-ToP arcs that he didn't outline

>>693902802
I thought that was the effect of the wish, making sure they weren't extincted when by all rights they should have been, so Raditz ends up with Vegeta and Goku manages to avoid being detected in escape

Still a lame wish and scene, but it didn't really take anything away

I’m hoping after Super Hero and Daima DLC they’ll start filling out the roster with characters that didn’t make it in from BT3. OGDB is an obvious pack, then the Z and GT stragglers like Supreme Kai, Super 17 and maybe a couple extras like base and SSJ Vegeta (GT). Then after that, Super should continue and they can start working on bringing all the characters to the game. I wouldn’t expect something like that till at least late 2025-early 2026

>>693903972
>>693904176
Marketing nonsense, Toriyama never even read the manga

>>693902584
idiot

>>693903931
i agree with this but DB has shown time and time again that won't happen

>>693904060
this is essentially the same thing

>>693904262
everyone who is worried about characters getting in needs to take a deep breath and accept that they'll get everything they want, they're just going to be paying for shitloads of DLC to get it, it's a pretty obvious formula for them to follow

>>693900004
based

>>693904331
The irony of this post

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>>693899942
Old evil wizard Moro was great. Too bad they made him Cell 2.0 later

>>693904176
Here's what Toriyama said about how it fits, notice how he completely ignored the manga of Toyotaro.
>Toriyama has revealed where Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero fits into Dragon Ball Z: “The movies up to now have followed major episodes in the ten years between the original manga’s Majin Buu arc and the final chapter. ‘Super Hero’ is a story right before the final chapter. Thanks to the excellent director and staff, it was well-received as the best yet by all those who saw it! I’m glad I was able to take part in it too!... if I may toot my own horn. With the anime comics, you can easily enjoy that consistently wonderful quality, and might also discover new things. Please check out every little nook and cranny!" shared Akira Toriyama.

>>693904406
garbage post

>>693904320
Imagine unironically being this assmad

>>693904498
I'm not sure if you even read that whole quote

>>693904492
The Moro Saga is how I knew Toyo was never going to have it, keeping Moro as a magical giant satan was incredibly cool, then almost immediately they make him look as generic-marketable as possible and do a lame rehash of fucking Cell of all things, miserable time

>>693904630
If you find me ignorant, enlighten me

>>693904492
Magic is such an underrated part of DB. In a setting where literally everything is about strong dudes, actual wizards who can beat them with knowledge of the arcane gets so little representation. Every fight devolves into a shouting match

>>693904683
Speaking of Cell wasn't that arc pretty much the same way. They kept changing plans because it wasn't marketable enough so Cell had to have multiple forms and some retarded method of transformation. I think the original android arc was just supposed to be about Gero and 19.

>>693904828
Similar nature but there's a world of difference between Toriyama and Toyopaco

>>693900191
Didn't they make evil super saiyan god vegeta to compensate for ultra ego? If xenoverse couldn't do it with it's nonstop DLC milking, I doubt sparking will be able to.

>>693900586
You're misunderstanding the wish, basically it saved them from dying with the planet. Thrive means to grow well, which necessitates not dying as a kid. You could argue it's what had the dragonball block the dodonpai at Korins tower.

>>693904828
Yes Gero and 19 were supposed to be the endgame. But Toriyama's editor called him complaining about the villains being a "geezer" and a "fatso." So Toriyama invented 17 and 18, which lead to another call from his editor complaining about the villains being dumbass kids. So then Toriyama invented Cell, after which Toriyama got a call from a different editor saying he should transform. Which lead to the extremely marketable Perfect Cell.

There you go /v/. Your waifu 18 is the result of studio meddling. She wasn't Toriyama's original vision.

>>693899942
Because Shueisha, one of the companies that owns Dragon Ball, is an unworkable monstrosity that has the rights all fucked up and in different chunks. Manga-only content can't appear in any video games or other tie-in materials.

Japanese Bureaucracy, nobody is more efficient at being inefficient.

>>693904828
Yes, the difference is that Toriyama stuck that landing and kept it interesting because Cell was still a novel concept as a genetic amalgam. Toyo just completely dropped the novel concept of "ancient goat magi who uses magic, which Goku and Vegeta are not ready for" and went right for an absorption yawnfest with a Cell-faced prettyboy.

>>693904776
I mean if you just read what you posted, you'd see that by your own logic, all of the Super anime past RoF is more non-canon than the manga

>>693905012
Gero as Cell would have made the most and best sense.

>>693905015
How do you explain all those commercials for the gacha arcade game?

>>693905015
there's going to be a quiet blood war and the rights will all consolidate under one being, but god knows who it'll be and how bad it'll get

>>693903131
>bojack squad if they cornflakes
yeah great concept I agree tard-kun

>>693905129
Which commercials? To my knowledge no manga-exclusive content was added to Heroes.

>>693904792
I mean my favorite scene is all of dragonball is when Goku convinces Buu to kill Babidi.

>>693905039
Explain me that logic because Toriyama saying
"The movies up to now have followed major episodes in the ten years between the original manga’s Majin Buu arc and the final chapter."
Seems consistent, I would argue this part of the quote is even worse for the manga of Toyotaro because the manga skipped Broly.

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>>693905190
Didn't it have a tie manga?

>>693905301
Yes, and it's marketed as itself, not Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Z or Super or whatever. DBH is its own chunk of the IP with its own rights and distribution. That's why when characters from it appear in Dokkan Battle, it's listed as a Collaboration Event because they're not characters they're allowed to just bring in whenever they want.

Thank fucking God we got Broly and Orange Piccolo before Toriyama died

>>693905039
>>693905258
To further my point notice how Toriyama makes a different between the movies that continued the story after Majin Buu and the final chapter of the manga, but he doesn't say or consider the manga of DBS as part of that in the same interview.

>>693905258
Most of Super's arcs are not in any movies, and thus according to your take on that quote do not fall in between Z and the ending, thus are not canon
The suggestion to check out the "anime comics" refers to the manga
And Broly is explicitly stated in plain text within the manga to be canon to the manga

>>693905394
K. Makes sense. Thank you.

>>693905425
To be fair, I don't think that's precisely Toriyama trying to exclude so much as give Toyo the freedom to do his own thing.

So who is tracking the amount of time between Buu and End of Z where super and Daima take place? Frieza?

>>693905569
Daima takes place right after Buu arc. Super after a couple of years i think.

>>693899942
I'd like it if Toei adapted the Granola arc and ironed out some of the weaker points of the story. What Toyopacos and Toeitards don't understand is that the anime and manga as of Super both have mutually terrible debuts for concepts that their opposites tend to clean up.

>>693905438
>Most of Super's arcs are not in any movies
Let's see if that is true.
BoG - Beerus arc RoF - Frieza arc
No film for Champa, Black Goku, Tournament of Power
Broly and Super Hero
It seems the movies cover more by one.
>The suggestion to check out the "anime comics" refers to the manga
And the anime
Which seems a moot point for either side.
>>693905523
But giving Toyotaro creative liberty is not mutually exclusive with the manga of Super being part of the manga continuity.

>>693899942
https://www.thegamer.com/dragon-ball-sparking-zero-lost-90-percent-players-in-four-weeks/
SLOPPING SLOPRO AHAHAHAHAHA

for the manga readers, when does Black Freeza appear?

>>693905896
BoG and RoF are not "Super" movies
Checkmate

>>693905948
At the end of the Granola arc. They haven't really explored the implications of it yet since he literally just shows up at the end, beats up Goku and Vegeta, then leaves. It's kinda funny when you frame it like that, but narratively speaking it was clearly done because Toyotaro wrote himself into a corner with his endless power wanking.

>>693905948
End of the Granolah arc, for about two pages

>>693905685
You're correct, Super starts a couple years later (Goku's a farmer and mentions being rusty after deflecting some bandits' bullets in the first(?) episode).

In Daima they're celebrating their very recent victory, even the Kais are still hanging out. Plenty of time to fit the story canonically in-between end of Z and Super. But now that I'm thinking about it I don't know if the Uub shit would have happened before or after Daima's start, and there are some implications there since Uub had a small part in the Moro arc.

>>693906061
Daima is straight after Buu and EoZ is 10 years later. Uub at best would still be a newborn during Daima.

>>693905990
I know you feel like this is your gotcha moment, you let's return to the original quote
"The movies up to now have followed major episodes in the ten years between the original manga’s Majin Buu arc and the final chapter"
Toriyama makes no distintion for the DBZ movies (in this case BoG and RoF) with Broly and Super Hero even though both are Super and not Z unlike the other two and those are included between what happened in the decade after the defeat of Majin Buu.
Most of the story of Super is in films

>>693906061
If I'm correct. Both Daima and Super are supposed to take place before end of Z. I guess 10 years is a lot of time to work with.

>>693904385
The Manga-Only chacracters getting in is legitamately a huge question right now. Historically DB games have had problems with adding manga content, due to technically not having the licence. Never used to be that big a problem because the manga content would become anime content eventually, but now that Super anime is done but Super manga is not, now what?

>>693906121
Oh yeah I forgot Uub is fucking Buu's reincarnation while I was writing that, my bad. You and the other anon are right

Flopping Slopro. Your game fucking FLOPPED. Stupid Dragontard manchildren. get the fuck off my board

>>693906271
Both occur before EoZ, yes. Daima occurs before Super.

>>693906323
That's exactly why this will get resolved quickly and painfully. There is SO much money to be made right now, and with Toriyama dead the sharks are going to go mad tearing each other up to secure that money.

>>693906219
The story of the movies are not the story of Super, which is why Super changed them

>>693906412
Well yes, but it does seem very silly to try to fit it all together. Why give a shit about some brown kid who is majin buu when they have been fighting people way stronger than him for 10 years?

>>693906002
>>693906049
>shows he can kill them without even breaking a sweat
>refuses to elaborate
>leaves
my insecure king is so kino

This may sound like a terrible take but Goten and Trunks should've been the MC's of the Granolah arc just like Piccolo and Gohan doing Super Hero, Goku and Vegeta have literally ascended to godhood so random fucking goobers being able to go toe to toe with them even with Dragonball wishes is dumb even with the life drain drawback.

>>693906726
>Goten and Trunks should've been the MC's of the Granolah arc
Goten and Trunks should have been the MC's of Daima.

>>693906559
Well, Uub was reincarnated with a pretty huge chunk of Buu's power if EoZ is anything to go off of, and according to Super he was reincarnated with Grand Supreme Kai's God Ki. It's like starting with SS2 at birth as your base form, or higher.

>>693906793
Does anyone even like Goten? Why do they even exist? Just so Gotenks can job?

>>693906801
>Ssj2
Neat I guess?

>>693906552
>The story of the movies are not the story of Super
The main plot is the story of Super.
BoG- Beerus Arc is the god of destruction looking for the super saiyan god while Bulma is having her birthday
RoF- Frieza Arc Frieza revives and he wants his revenge

Which has the better moveset regular perfect Cell or super perfect Cell?

>>693906974
When you have that kind of power from birth, it kind of is.

Dragon Ball Super's efforts to make the Dragonball cosmology bigger have backfired and made everything feel smaller and hyper incestuous.

>>693907291
That's just what happens when you try to do a big space setting while neglecting to iron out the smaller details. Daima's doing a lot better in that regard since they actually give a shit about the demon realms.

>>693899942
He's non-canon

>>693906938
>Does anyone even like Goten? Why do they even exist?

Every legendary family needs that one odd kid out who doesn't really care about the legacy and just wants to be a normal guy.

>>693904968
Toyotaro was just mad about Goku somehow surviving his fight with King Piccolo with no explanation reading it as a kid and wrote a retroactive justification for something that bugged him for years.

This is what I wholeheartedly believe is the case.

>>693907291
You mean like when god was related to a main villain
Or like when afterlife gods were chilling with and training the protagonists
Or like when other gods above those gods were just some dudes that did the same shit and also had beef with a main villain

>>693899942
I hate Zoomers having such low standards that they want Moro and Granolah in

>>693908037
There are approximately 100 characters in the game that are worse

>>693907830
No one knows what you're trying to say

>>693907262
I'll believe it when I see it.

>>693905012
16, 17 and 18 were actually a good call and made the story more interesting. Gero would have been as boring as Perfect Cell ended up being. 16 should have been the final boss.

>>693908169
Kami, King Kai, Supreme Kai. I know exactly what is being said.

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>>693900742
he can in Heroes

>>693899942
>17 septillion power level
lmao

>>693907365
But like the demon realms have always been non-canon xenoberse shit. A one off line about Dabura being from there is fine. I don't care. You don't need to explore it. It's just as bad as multiversity shit.

>>693900612
You realise the Norse invented those dreads you fucking idiot?

>>693899942
Too strong. He would beat everyone else with one finger as the strongest fighter in the universe.

>>693904492
wasn't this just the plot of a GR15 2 part episode?

>>693908467
*at that time.

>>693908169
Weak

>>693900004
I liked the Moro arc but the Granola/Heaters shit needs a serious fucking revision if them adapt it.
It's complete nonsense with no direction or momentum if you read it all in one go, the Bardock shit is totally pointless and it all just amounts to a sacrificial lamb for an arc we may never get.

>>693908427
Don't forget how half of the characters in the series now may or may not have descended from demons, but also specifically the namekians and thus the entire nominal premise of the series is from the demon realm

>>693904903
I think the plan is to fill the space with old stuff until the rights issue is ended. Which would also allow super anime to come back but I have a feeling we're going to get a recut that's closer to the manga to better sell easy moneymakers like Super Saiyan Goku Black.

>>693900114
it looks like dragon quest lol

>>693906938
Goten exists because one of the guys involved in production is a pedo, when daima was unvieled he talked about Goku's "cute young body" to a bunch of side eye glances from the other guys on the panel.

>>693908668
Ya, but that's stupid.

>>693907291
Dragonball seems to have grown to disregard its setting and treats expanding its scope as a disposable excuse to introduce 1 character tougher than Goku.

It's just really dumb that they widen the scope in such convoluted ways just to reveal 1 strong enemy for Goku to surpass.

>>693908602
i liked both simply because they werent tournament/frieza arcs lol

>>693908668
makai is not hell in the dragon ball cosmology. We have already been shown hell and it's not makai. Makai is a place where aliens called "demons" (good and evil) come from. But it is not where satans and literal hell demons come from.

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>arrives
>loses a fight against granolah
>has a 2v1 fight against gas that he drops out of in order for goku to shine with a new version of ui
>gets one shot by frieza
Most pathetic form in db by far

>>693908959
Fuck Toriyama for doing Vegeta dirty like this.

>>693908427
Not really. The difference is in the amount of thought and detail that the others are given. The multiverse stuff is given very little attention and they just introduce characters that scale up to Super Saiyan Blue as though they aren't the end result of decades of hard work and intruding upon the realm of the Gods. It ultimately just makes everything seem pointless when even the jobbers are scaling up to Super Saiyan Blue.

The demon realm is being handled a lot more gracefully in that regard. Most of the concepts that are being introduced actually have some narrative weight, whether it's to expand on their dimension or explain some of the stuff that occurred in Universe 7. Things actually matter because they gave a shit about the characters they were introducing outside of giving Goku some strong guys to punch.

>>693908942
Inhabitants of the demon realm are by definition demons

>>693909013
>toriyama
Toyo writes the manga thoughever?

>Be Destroyer God of the Universe
>Seal your Kaioshin in a sword so you can be lazy, eat, sleep and jerk off for the next centuries, causing your Kaioshin to be replaced by an Intern
>Sleep through a pink bubblegum monster wiping out several galaxies for shits and giggles
>At one point when you're not napping you hand the keys to galactic domination to a family of evil real estate agents

>>693908942
That's just normal japanese myth. Makai isn't hell, it's just the Demon World. Conflating the two is overlaying western religion onto japanese inappropriately.

>>693908959
It's still somehow the best showing of a surprise new form achieved off screen

because super is trash

>>693909078
The inhabitants of makai are majin. majin are not the same as akumas or oni.

>>693899942
>>693900004
>>693908602
Granola's story was good and fun. I don't know why people are saying it's bad. I'm really confused.

>>693909138
No it's not, 3 at least had the edge against Fat Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks was a threat to Super Buu, then 3 fought on par with Kid Buu at the end
It got cucked out of the win for plot reasons but it wasn't a humiliation ritual culminating in a double one shot like UE

>>693909151
I do not care to make distinctions between subcategories of evil, they will all kneel

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>>693909194
>guy just wishes to become stronger, becomes UI goku tier, laziest possible fucking writing
>flanderization of ultra instinct
>horrid introduction and subsequent instant flanderization of ultra ego
>another guy just fucking wishes to become strong and does
and most of all
>completely fucking mega turbo ruins bardock's character

How the hell did Granolah and Gas get so strong anyways? If getting stronger is really just as simple as "i wish to be the strongest", then the main cast could've been doing that over and over instead of training. Like just tell Shenron "gimme Super Saiyan Blue 3".

>>693909205
I mean best showing in terms of function, plot, and possibly even hype
3 just kinda showed up and then fucked around for a bit, people only really remember that scene because of Goku whipping out his dick and yelling for 5 minutes
If it weren't for later fights I don't think people would even care about the form beyond that

>>693907431
>doesn't really care about the legacy and just wants to be a normal guy.
So Gohan. The one everyone ridicules for not training like this father. Who opts out every opportunity for peacetime and then has to catch up when Goku isn't around

>>693909151
>majin are not the same as akuma
They are you fucking retard. Do you not understand what the 魔 in 魔人 means? The terms are both used interchangeably, with the only possible distinction between the two that you could make being that 悪魔 are explicitly evil spirits while 魔人 are just demons/devils, which might not necessarily be malevolent.

>>693909431
Yes
It's COMPLETELY setting breaking since it was tacitly established in Z when Goku denied one of Shenron's wishes that their power had outstripped Shenron's functions, then reaffirmed in BoG when Shenron was terrified of Beerus and that level of godly power
But now they're infinitely stronger than God was back then and a random can just wish and get stronger than that

>>693909431
>>693909585
Based non-readers
They spent their entire future lifetimes to achieve that power, and in Gas' case actively kept spending more to bullshit his raw power enough to keep up with Goku and Vegeta
Also they wished on some jank ass balls that allowed for that monkey's paw wish to be possible
Also also the ENTIRE point of the arc was that shortcuts are not the same as real strength and cannot be depended on

Not liking it is one thing, but you niggers should at least not be retarded

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>>693909321
>guy just wishes to become stronger, becomes UI goku tier
Different dragon with different capabilities. But also, this was achieved by shaving off the person's life. Similar to the situation in HxH, where Gon uses future potential Nen to becomes strong now, but it burns his life away.

>flanderization of ultra instinct
I'm not even sure what you mean by that.

>horrid introduction and subsequent instant flanderization of ultra ego
How do you "flanderize" something that was just introduced pages ago? Do you know what flanderization means?

>another guy just fucking wishes to become strong and does
With the same stipulations. He too shortens his life.

>completely fucking mega turbo ruins bardock's character
I can kind of understand your sentiment there. But I never watched the movies, so I don't really give a shit. From what I've seen in clips, and heard about here and there, movie Bardock does seem cooler. But manga Bardock is still pretty cool.

>>693908959
Its kind of insane that'd they introduce a form by having Vegeta still lose. Like in Dragonball Z when Vegeta went Super Saiyan it was against Android 19 so it looked good.

But this is like if Vegeta's 1st fight as a Super Saiyan was getting his ass handed to him by Android 18. If he's written to lose regardless the form is narratively pointless and it's association with losing just makes it a joke.

>>693909710
>Also they wished on some jank ass balls that allowed for that monkey's paw wish to be possible
That's the reasoning I was thinking, that while the 7-ball Shenron had that limitation >>693909585
mentioned, the 2-ball Shenron could grant whatever and you'd pay some kind of price if the wish was excessive. Kind of like how the black star balls would asplode your planet as a blowback.

As long as youre still in a dungeon when the earthquake happens, it wont disappear. As soon as you leave though, that shits gone.

>>693908959
Imagine getting a form dedicated to and powered by jobbing, only to end up jobbing. Prince of all jobbers in eternal shambles, never going to win a fight again.

>>693909710
>Also also the ENTIRE point of the arc was that shortcuts are not the same as real strength and cannot be depended on
The guy who embodied those shortcuts was beaten not by hard work, but by a grossly overpowered prodigy happening to not be applied to the wish's parameters, and coming out of nowhere with an obscenely powerful new form he effectively stumbled onto.

>>693909710
>They spent their entire future lifetimes to achieve that power,
I know, still setting breaking that planetary level wish orbs can grant that level of power when we've already seen the hard limits of wish orbs on the same planetary tier, having another dragon with massively greater capabilities than Shenron is lazy and nonsensical given we already have a set of wish orbs for that tier of power, the super dragon balls.
Also retroactively makes Zamasu a MASSIVE retard

>>693909823
I don't think this is outright hatred towards Bejita this time, just how modern DragonBall is written. Super Saiyan God lost its first fight against Beerus. Super Saiyan Blue Goku technically lost against Frieza thanks to him being shot (how) and Vegeta didn't even get a pity win because Frieza blew up the Earth. Super Saiyan Royal Blue... wait I meant Evolution didn't do anything against Jiren. Really Ultra Instinct being successful the first time makes it the outlier.

>>693909431
Shenron gave them the wishes without costs but with restrictions.

Toronbo was basically the opposite, where if there is a wish that he can't grant due to some restrictions, he'll impose conditions in order to fulfil them. Granolah's wish to be the strongest in the universe was not possible because Toronbo couldn't grant him power beyond his latent potential, but what he could instead do was convert all of his life energy so that Granolah would get that wish at the cost of a heavily-reduced lifespan.

>>693909534
Nah. Gohan is still in the legacy to some degree. He's still a world-saver people look to, even with his hopes for a normal life. Goten? Nobody is EVER going to look his way. He's off the hook. He can just be a happy nobody with no expectations knocking at his door.

>>693909817
>Different dragon with different capabilities. But also, this was achieved by shaving off the person's life
still lazy and unsatisfying writing that just makes you think either why this dragon is so unreasonably strong or why previous villains didnt try the same shit
>I'm not even sure what you mean by that.
granolah arc is where it lost it's luster as goku's shiny ultra form, it jobbed, the concept was overexposed, it's no longer a hype win button, it's too normalized
>How do you "flanderize" something that was just introduced pages ago?
ask toyotaro making it lose three fights back to back
>With the same stipulations. He too shortens his life.
still lazy

>>693909710
>shortcuts are not the same as real strength
>Gohan and Krilin have their hidden power unlocked instantly by the old namek
>Gohan has his hidden power unlocked instantly AGAIN by the old kaio
>Piccolo has his hidden power unlocked instantly by the old Shenron
Clearly the isue is they ddin't ask some old fart to do it.

>>693909938
So first, Gas was already on his death bed having a sad moment and Frieza killed him as a spite move
And second, Frieza's character development that led to that moment embodies the message of the arc and the entire series- he's mirroring Goku's work ethic and love of fighting on a conceptual level, even going as far as to taunt them to get stronger instead of just killing them like the old him would've

>>693899942
There's just something fundamentally offputting about Unreal Engine and it's evident in every single game made in that environment

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>>693909551
He's pretty correct though in that they aren't necessarily always malevolent.

>>693909949
That's not a superior capability, just a different one
A curse is not better than a boon just because the downside allows it to have a technically stronger upside

>>693909997
>>Toronbo was basically the opposite, where if there is a wish that he can't grant due to some restrictions, he'll impose conditions in order to fulfil them. Granolah's wish to be the strongest in the universe was not possible because Toronbo couldn't grant him power beyond his latent potential, but what he could instead do was convert all of his life energy so that Granolah would get that wish at the cost of a heavily-reduced lifespan
>he can't grant him power beyond his potential
>proceeds to grant him power beyond his potential

>>693909949
>having another dragon with massively greater capabilities than Shenron is lazy and nonsensical

We don't know that Shenron could not make the same wish and would not have handled it the same way. How the strongest wish was granted makes sense. The dragon basically says that if he had trained constantly for x amount of time, he would become the most powerful in the universe then takes x away from his life. He just gets to skip the training part and immediately dedicated his life to being the most powerful now instead of later.

>>693910108
I don't care, I genuinely love that one of the twists of Dragon Ball is that Goku managed to teach a pure villain with universe-ending potential the benefits of training and love of a good close fight, that's peak comedy

>>693909949
For that wish there was rule-monkeying involved. You couldn't wish on the balls to HAVE that power, but you could wish on them to have by definition the highest mortal power, and your competition just happens to be ridiculously strong. If that wish had been made back at the start of Z, depending on how you interpret it you'd become Frieza or MAYBE Majin Buu tier.

>>693909996
Even then, UI could be argued as not having won. He lost his first fight against Jiren but managed to not get rung out. In his second fight, his body fell apart and he collapsed before he could finish Jiren off - Jiren himself didn't accept this as his victory and felt disgusted by it, but even if UI was in a position to defeat Jiren he ran out of fuel.

>>693910108
>Freeza learns the Goku lesson better than his own son
Sad.

>>693910071
Yeah that's why those plot points in those other stories are terrible

>>693910179
>he can't grant him power beyond his potential
>proceeds to grant him power beyond his potential
>"You don't have enough potential for me to MAKE you this strong. But if I burn up your whole lifespan and use it as energy, we can use it instead of the potential you're lacking."
Does that clear things up for you anon?

>planetary level
oh my god. You're one of those power scaling retards, huh? How do you claim the dragon balls to be "planetary" what does that even mean?

>>693910179
Did you flunk out of grade school or something? Read the second half of the same sentence you quoted. It wasn't possible as a free wish, so it was done with a hefty cost.

>>693910219
The real question I want to know is whether Beast is weaker than Black Frieza. Orange Piccolo is apparently the same strength level as UE and UI post-Granolah, but Beast is a tier above that. Can he fight on par with Frieza, or is Black form even higher up?

>>693910191
It's unironically kino and a perfect idea for a final arc and I desperately wish Toyo was capable of drawing out even half of the potential that idea has

>Granolah arc defenders are actually Whisperkeks
Should have known. It was so obvious.

>>693910176
>>693910187
>>693910192
Fair enough, I'll concede it's mechanically different and if you're gonna do this in-universe something mystical and nebulous like wishes is fine, I also still think it's very lazy, brings up too many setting-related questions and really makes Zamasu look stupid for not just wishing for strength outright

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>>693910024
It's fucked up because Gohan never really escaped the burden of responsibilities he got since Raditz. Gohan just doesn't want to be involved with this shit but he has to. Even Trunks has it to a lesser extent because of the standard Future Trunks set. Goten somehow doesn't even though he's exponentially more powerful than anyone in the series was at the same age

>>693910347
It fucking kills me. It's clear the finale is Frieza wishing to become the Omni King, but then sabotaging himself on purpose to motivate the entire multiverse to find out if they can overcome him at that level. He WANTS it, that shit is now a drug to him with no other high that compares. Just an incredible finale to all of Dragon Ball, and you just know he's going to make it suck.

>>693910407
That is true if you're looking at it from the perspective of gaining strength. You could also chalk it up to Zamasu being mindbroken by mortals and wanting to take the body of the strongest mortal he knew because he was OBSESSED with the fact that Goku was rubbing elbows with the gods.

>>693908140
Name them faggot

>>693909431
Saiyan Fight Autism would never let Goku or Vegeta do that, they love training and fighting too much to get such a powerful handout like that, as for the rest of the cast they genuinely do get exponentially more powerful but at a much slower rate so they could easily obliterate the old foes but aren't strong enough to deal with the new ones, at this point any of the Z-fighters could singlehandedly kill Namek Saga Final Form Frieza without a thought.
>>693909585
>>693909710
>>693909840
The Cerealian Dragonballs are dangerous bootlegs compared to the Earth and Namekian Dragonballs as the power wishes came at the huge cost of their lifespan in Granolah's case or literally burning out from the inside in Gas' case. It's like a fucked up version of getting your potential unlocked
>>693910071
Getting your potential unlocked by Elder Guru and Old Kai is drawing out power hidden within yourself for a boost, you still need to keep training if you want to maintain or get stronger, and even when Krillin and Gohan got their potential unlocked on Namek they still got their asses kicked because their unlocked potential was still lesser than their opponents who are either elites or absolute freaks of nature at the time.
It would have been a much better story if Granolah and the Heater Gang were using some form of self destructive power up that WASN'T via Dragonball wish

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>>693910521
>Zamasu

I will die on the hill that Zamasu is the most wasted character in all of DragonBall

>>693910494
I want Frieza to die permanently, while revealing that he secretly genuinely enjoyed fighting Goku and respected him as an opponent, just because that's the one thing he could do that would actually hurt Goku and stick with him forever

>>693910347
the ending was the second worst part of the arc, the worst being the monkey paw dragon balls

>>693910219
It makes sense though, Freeza loves showing off and always has, he enjoyed getting to exercise on namek until the spirit bomb.
To Gohan, fighting has always been suffering and watching his friends and family die. He never got the fun of a word tournament or the thrill of safely pressing his limits.

>>693899942
For the same reason he isn't going to be in the anime.

>>693910608
I cannot answer this because I cannot write Goku that many times without my post getting spamcucked

>>693910319
Unlikely, beast had to ramp up to overcome UI and it wasn't even a definitive win, Black frieza one tapped UI and UE without any chance of a response. Beast might be closest to Black Frieza but it's not equal yet.

>>693910704
>To Gohan, fighting has always been suffering and watching his friends and family die. He never got the fun of a word tournament or the thrill of safely pressing his limits.
That was why I liked Buu Saga Gohan actually being hyped for the World Martial Arts tournament and fighting Babidi's minions. It's such a rare chance for him to just cut loose without the fate of the universe at stake (at first) that he gets to indulge in that Saiyan instinct for a while.

>>693910067
>still lazy and unsatisfying writing that just makes you think either why this dragon is so unreasonably strong
You're thinking about it the wrong way. The dragon didn't give him power like you give someone a pile of gold and riches. The dragon didn't CREATE the power. The dragon transferred what power already existed in the future, and brought it to the present. The dragon was more like a lever used to transfer something heavy. But it didn't create the heavy thing in the first place.

>why previous villains didnt try the same shit
Villains didn't even know the dragon balls existed until recently. Don't you even know the basic premise of the story you're reading? Dragon balls are largely unknown to people. And the few villains who do know of their existence, have been beaten back by the heroes. The *might* make such a wish, if they ever had a chance. And if you think about it, that's exactly what we see in the Granola story. As soon as the villains had the opportunity, they took it. And now you know why the wish is a bad idea.

>granolah arc is where it lost it's luster as goku's shiny ultra form, it jobbed
ok...? that's how these stories work. You get a new power, it wins the day, then in the next story, the villains get stronger, and you need yet a new power. Did you think Ultra instinct would be the winning form forever?

>ask toyotaro making it lose three fights back to back
That's NOT what flanderization means. You're actually retarded.

>>693910810
I feel that way about Great Saiyaman. Because he gets to be a superhuman actively seeking conflict but against petty criminals who can't possibly hurt him. His antics won't follow him home as long as he protects his identity. He gets to have the fun without the trauma.

>>693910848
>ok...? that's how these stories work. You get a new power, it wins the day, then in the next story, the villains get stronger, and you need yet a new power. Did you think Ultra instinct would be the winning form forever?
NTA but it doesn't need to be the winning form, but it lost it's mystique completely and the whole true UI nonsense was fucking stupid
>That's NOT what flanderization means
flanderization is generally just oversimplification, maybe that was the wrong term for him to use specifically but it was introduced and immediately demerited

>>693910617
BASEDmasu wasn't wasted, that's actually one of the most kinographic arcs in dragonball it just suffered from the anime's spotty production

Why didn't Zamasu just rape all the mortals?

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>>693909194
Toyo's art is shit, the character designs were shit, and above all I hate the idea that anyone left in the universe has the potential to compete with Goku and Vegeta even if they're inorganically extending it by shaving their lifespan. It feels disrespectful to the amount of power they've gained that rando mutants are capable of reaching it even through gimmick shortcuts
They need to start delving into other universes because U7 is dried up

where chichi

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>>693911306
Nappa for comparison

>>693911306
>It feels disrespectful to the amount of power they've gained that rando mutants are capable of reaching it even through gimmick shortcuts
You mean like what Frieza was doing?

>>693911306
>goku_vomits_on_a_tiny_alien.png

>>693911228
It should've been kino. The amount of asspulls and logic gaps kind of fucks it up. But the Goku Black arc was like the only time in Super where I felt something. Well that and the beginning of the ToP where it pretended it was going to address Goku's naivete

>>693911461
Frieza never used gimmick shortcuts. Frieza is the series' most iconic villain who was always a uniquely powerful mutant among a race of uniquely powerful mutants who comprised the Universe's most terrifying ruling class so it's fine for him to train and get stronger.
Random fodder like Granolah and Gas being introduced this late in the game and accessing these levels of power is just not enjoyable to see.

>>693911605
>Frieza never used gimmick shortcuts
He trained for 4 months and got stronger than everyone.

>>693911461
I don't like RoF either. Do Toyopacos have a defense that isn't shitting all over the rest of the series they supposedly love? If they do, I haven't seen it.

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>>693911306
>Toyo's art is shit
He will never be Toriyama, but his art is far from shit, and he's had his moments to shine here and there

>>693911669
What do you mean RoF? That was a trait that Frieza had in DBZ.

>>693911584
It was kino where it needed to be I think. It actually had a highly flawed villain proselytising to Vegito while half his body was melting and rationalizing those flaws as a burden to bear while openly sobbing during a grandiose speech. It had Goku Black and Zamasu sipping tea in a little mountain hut inbetween their rampages. It was soul

I'm kind of surprised that even now, no one else learned the Kaioken or the Ultra Instinct technique Roshi picked up just from his martial arts experience.

>>693911654
Training is not a gimmick shortcut, it's silly that he trained for just 4 months and got that strong I agree, but it was consistent with what we had been presented and with a character with whom that presentation was congruence that we'd be willing to accept it with due to his iconicism.

>>693910407
>really makes Zamasu look stupid for not just wishing for strength outright

Zamasu should have used one wish to become immortal then make the strongest wish. Since he is immortal, it would be costless.

>>693911842
*presentation as congruent

>>693911779
Yeah it was. Maybe I just hate the story he was in rather than the character. Because even though i hated the character on announcement, both Zamasu and Black were fun as fuck

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>>693911709
>his art is far from shit

>>693911306
>the character designs were shit
Granola and the heeters look cool. Much improved over previous designs like Kefla. Granola's design is main character worthy, imo.

>and above all I hate the idea that anyone left in the universe has the potential to compete with Goku and Vegeta
>They need to start delving into other universes because U7 is dried up
The other universes have taught us that rando mutants are capable of keeping up with goku and vegeta. That's what everyone else from the other universes are: just random aliens and demons and shit. If other universes can reach god levels without god Ki, then U7 people should be capable too.

We've hardly explored all the inhabitable planets in U7. It's literally an entire universe. All kinds of talented people could exist.

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>>693911709
Dude it's a monthly manga, I read weeklies/biweeklies with more consistent and interesting art than he puts out for Dragonball. His art is sub par for the time he has to work on it

Fuck the Granolah arc, not because of whatever power up methods you faggots are arguing over, none of that shit matters, fuck it because the entire moral for granolah is to get over the death of his ENTIRE FUCKING RACE and just forgive the monsters that are still getting more powerful just for the sake of being more powerful, and while it is based to tell Goku to have (white)Saiyen pride, unless you are going full 1488, that's a fucked up thing to have pride in. Assuming 'modern morality'.

>>693911829
That would mean that the writers would have to use their brains for martial arts and uses for powers instead of coming up with new hair colors and ways for Vegeta to job

You know that's a great argument!

OR

And follow me here

Powerlevels are bullshit

>>693912087
>The other universes have taught us that rando mutants are capable of keeping up with goku and vegeta. That's what everyone else from the other universes are: just random aliens and demons and shit. If other universes can reach god levels without god Ki, then U7 people should be capable too
You're right conceptually that any number of thigns could be in U7 if they exist in other universes but we've also seen such ancient depictions of evil in U7 like Buu and then wizards that predate even that like Moro and freaks like Broly, it's very rabbit-out-the-hat for shit to keep cropping up when you could easily go to one of the other universes who have a much fresher well of freaks to draw from instead of reaching back into the mythos of U7 to pull another mega super evil or freak of nature

>>693911956
ToyoSHITbros... our response?

DBZA did it better anyway

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>>693911709
mogged by fucking heroes

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>>693899942
Legal hurdles, Bandai Namco works with the Dragonball IP through a Toei Animation / Bird Studio / Shueisha committee. The Super manga is a Shueisha / Bird Studio committee, a different one that Bandai Namco has no finger on the pie.

Either the Super manga events get a Toei adaptation or they just don't appear in anything that Bandai makes.

>>693911145
>flanderization is generally just oversimplification
No it's not. Flanderization is exaggerating aspects of a character that the writers discovered are most appealing to the audience, while allowing the character's other aspects to diminish. Resulting in a character who is a gross caricature of what they once were.
You quite literally can't flanderize a character without sufficient time to work out aspects of them that appealed to the audience. And "demeriting" the stand out aspects of character, is the exact opposite of flanderization does. Which is to promote the stand out aspects.
You guys don't know what the fuck you're talking about. You're just using words at random and hoping to sound smart.

>it lost it's mystique completely and the whole true UI nonsense was fucking stupid
It was already explained from the very beginning, that UI is the state that angels are in naturally. It's just part of what angels are. The whole mystical part, is the idea of whether or not Goku would match the power of an angel. Perhaps even becoming one. The Granola arc answered the question, which is "no". Goku will not become an angel. Rather he would becomes something new. A path that takes inspiration from angels, but incorporates the pride of saiyans. And that's what you guys really don't appreciate and should. That both Goku and Vegita are forging their own path. How those paths will develop further is a mystery. These forms you saw in the Granola/Gas fight, are just the starting points. They're not the ending points. So yeah, they didn't have the best showing with their new forms. But that's to leave room for development. What you will see is the refinement of these forms over time, and then it will culminate into mastered version during the next major battle.

This should be obvious to anyone who understands storytelling. I shouldn't have to spell this out.

everything after the end of tournament of power and the super hero movie is noncanon.
No such thing as a moro or a granola or an ultra ego.

Sorry but that's just the way it is

>>693912629
>moro or a granola
literally the only good super sagas

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>>693912087
>Much improved over previous designs like Kefla
Apologize

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>>693912428
If you want to be respectful to the writers, lol why, then you can argue U7's weakness of the fault of how it's managed. Back when ToP was actually interesting, Grand Priest indicted the gods for their gross mismanagement of their universes. Shin's hands off approach of allowing mortals to write their own stories lead to people like Frieza and Buu having unchecked power to kill trillions on their whims. While Beerus's refusal to do his job meant any new life that might sprout suddenly found themselves under several guns that destroyed them before they had the opportunity to develop. The Saiyans only get away with it because they benefit from a universe in constant war with itself. And even then the race is nearly extinct now. Universe 7 is a Darwinian hellhole that other universes laugh at.

>>693912714
Moro started strong but went to shit
Granolah started shit and somehow got worse
Unironically the only truly good saga in Super is the anime ToP

>>693912428
Moro was fine since it helps recontextualize things like the Kai and Buu. Moro himself using power theft to close the gap is a reasonable way to show that threats can still come from U7.
Hell every enemy after Frieza until Beerus and then until Jiren, had a gimmick that allowed them to compete with the raw power of the heroes.

>>693912257
I feel like we saw hints of it with the Broly movie, specifically with Goku using his ki binding and the neat counter where he used Broly's momentum to go for the shoulder throw.

>>693912428
It's not "rabbit out of a hat", when they show you how the new characters obtain power. They're showing you "look! they wished for it, and it came at a terrible sacrifice"
Next time, it could be something different, like magic. Or maybe another race can ascend to godhood via a ceremony like the saiyans did. Or maybe through advancing technology like with the androids. There are many paths to power, if you use your imagination.

If goten was born before gohan, radditz would have been instakilled by toddlerten. Goten would probably be on par with vegeta which would be necessary since goku would have survived the radditz encounter. At that point im not even sure they would need to go to namek unless piccolo gets killed between raditz and vegeta, hell maybe goten kills piccolo for trying to kill goku. By namek, if they end up going there, goten would easily be a super saiyan before goku or vegeta.
Simply put, goten would have beaten all the major threats in dragon ball z while gohan was a whiny stupid retard that just jobbed.
ALSO gotens mirror match unique dialogue is a sonic adventure 2 reference

>>693912628
>Flanderization is exaggerating aspects of a character that the writers discovered are most appealing to the audience,
Do you even know the source of the word "Flanderization"? The exaggeration was never about a trait that was appealing to the audience, more often than not it was what the writers THOUGHT it would work better for them, not the audience.

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>>693912873
>Moro himself using power theft to close the gap is a reasonable way to show that threats can still come from U7.
I would agree but it wasn't leaned into enough and it ultimately still came down to powerwank
I honestly hoped the Moro arc would be a more grounded arc where Moro's power was kept on a smaller scale and Goku/Vegeta had to compete in different ways but it still just wound up with them pushes their ceilings up further and Moro going even further than that

>>693912984
No. The reason Goten was so strong is because Goku was much stronger by the time he was conceived. His pre-cell saga sperm would naturally produce weaker offspring.

>>693912628
>No it's not. Flanderization is exaggerating aspects of a character that the writers discovered are most appealing to the audience, while allowing the character's other aspects to diminish. Resulting in a character who is a gross caricature of what they once were.
That's what oversimplifcation is in the context of fictional characters
>It was already explained from the very beginning, that UI is the state that angels are in naturally. It's just part of what angels are. The whole mystical part, is the idea of whether or not Goku would match the power of an angel. Perhaps even becoming one. The Granola arc answered the question, which is "no". Goku will not become an angel. Rather he would becomes something new. A path that takes inspiration from angels, but incorporates the pride of saiyans. And that's what you guys really don't appreciate and should. That both Goku and Vegita are forging their own path. How those paths will develop further is a mystery. These forms you saw in the Granola/Gas fight, are just the starting points. They're not the ending points. So yeah, they didn't have the best showing with their new forms. But that's to leave room for development. What you will see is the refinement of these forms over time, and then it will culminate into mastered version during the next major battle.
Yeah that's cool but all of that could still be accomplished without making UI feel commonplace and less important compared to previous sagas

>>693913072
This excuse has always been bullshit because Vegeta was far weaker and not a Super Saiyan when Trunks was conceived and yet both he and Goten are similar to one another

>>693912720
Her design is so fucking bland and boring. Literally just a random woman in her gym spandex. And jsut to make it extra bland, he colored their pants and shirt the same color.

>>693912984
Not a chance Goten and Trunks together couldn't beat 18. There's no chance of Goten beating someone like Cell who would have had Gotens freak potential as well.

>>693900004

Moro, Granolah and Gas are all pretty damn cool fighters and they have no reason to not be DLC

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>still arguing about powerlevels on dragon ball

>>693912428
>>693912087
That's why I love Hit so much, he's not another unhinged fight autist or intergalactic menace, he's an assassin and a consummate professional.

I wish we could learn more about beerus. How did he get so strong, where did he come from, what is the initiation into godhood like. How do you get assigned an angel, where do they come from, etc etc etc

>>693909092
Beerus has lived for millions of years, Freeza is most likely not the first galactic hitler he's seen so in the grand scheme of things it's not that special

>>693912454
Kill yourself

>>693912628
>A path that takes inspiration from angels, but incorporates the pride of saiyans. And that's what you guys really don't appreciate and should.
I don't appreciate because Goku learned to control his emotions back in original DB in sparring sessions with Mr Popo so the idea of True UI where he sees his emotions are a drawback/strength and has to adapt his form around his heightened emotions and then immediately ditches the concept in his next sparring session with Beast makes the character seem oddly amateurish and makes me less interested in the direction

>>693913018
I think we're all in agreement the latter half of the arc was squandered. Even if fusing with the planet was a neat way to sidestep the Goku just outstrongs him climax we would expect after his UI training. There's definitely a better way to keep the highs of the El Cabron half of the story.

>>693913002
I suppose it doesn't necessarily have to do with the audience. But the concept is still about a *long running* work. Where the writers have *copious times* to work out the character. And during that time, they're going to get feedback from the audience. What works will be what the audience likes to see. And what the audience likes to see, will end up being the flanderized aspects.

Point is, you can't fucking flanderize in the same arc. A mere dozen pages away from each other.

>>693913167
Except Vegeta had been training for 3 years by that point and had achieved Super Saiyan before going into battle, there's a good chance achieving SS gave him the satisfaction to stop training long enough to plap Yamchas girl.

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haven't played in a few weeks. Did they do more patches or is the heart of online still vanish wars and skill spam?

>>693913136
If anything, Ultra Instinct should be relatively commonplace. It's the culmination of martial arts, and for earthlings who use martial arts as their means to get stronger, it should be more commonplace at this point. Roshi has it. Tien, who was described as having surpassed him, should be able to do it. Everyone who studied under Roshi and has been through several life and death battles should have it. Roshi's master was able to show it to an extent too, just staring off into space but blocking every attack kid Goku threw at him.

>>693913531
Still, hopefully next patch comes soon we're about a month in and only have the Yajirobe nerf.

>>693913254
>Dragon Ball: Scouters are dumb tools, power levels fluctuate, everyone has their own contributions to make regardless of level like Yajirobe cutting Vegeta's tail and Satan completing the Spirit Bomb
>Midwit in 2022: Uhh power levels don't matter sweetie, Toriyama is a shit writer, I'm very intelligent

Man i wish you could just save teams or something so you dont always have to manually select your whole team.

>>693913554
Tien is far too analytical a fighter to have it, he's got the same issue Vegeta has.

>>693913575
What else besides Yajirobe could possibly need a nerf?

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>>693913328
Toppo gives a hint. The fact he's up for consideration for God of Destruction while his universe still has one implies that a living mortal who can produce Hakai energy can be a candidate for the position or must usurp it from the current God of Destruction. Beerus has also threatened Goku and asked if he was looking to replace him although Goku has said he's not really interested in that.

Also Grand Priest stating the Angels are exempt from the death game that was the Tournament of Power because they're "different" than people who live in the universes imply they're not native to them. Especially since Whis and Vados refer to each other as siblings despite living in separate universes.

>>693913634
Ki sickness for instant sparking, afterimage strike either reduced duration or higher cost, readjustments to the 6 and 7 cost characters to make them worth using.

>>693913554
The IDEA? Yes, Goku should grasp the idea very well and use it with various forms, I have no problem with that. But the silver haired transformation is a very significant outlier in DB wherein it appeared, won it's fight, and then disappeared for the next arc (Broly) and was only brought back and mastered to win again, it had so much uniqueness and value to it, it should have been protected better.

>>693913697
Why are 6 and 7 cost characters not worth using?

>>693913686
Beerus and Champa are siblings and from different universes. Granted they might end up being from Demon realm which can connect to both.

>>693913379
>Be Beerus
>Space Hitler has been talking mad shit so you destroy all his planets and vaporize him
>Take a 30 year nap
>Another space hitler has taken his place and is fucking around in your front yard
>Decimate half his forces and tell him to pipe down lest you destroy the other half and him with it.
>He fucks off
>Finish nap
You're right it's probably the equivalent of having a bunch of raccoons eating your garbage

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>>693913136
>Yeah that's cool but all of that could still be accomplished without making UI feel commonplace and less important compared to previous sagas
This really makes no fucking sense. Every fucking power is less important in the sagas after it's introduced. Super Saiyan is supposed to be this god level ultimate form. And then in the very next saga, Trunks is introduced, and he has Super Saiyan already. Then Vegeta gets it. And then Android 18 kicks the shit out of super saiyan Vegeta like it's nothing. Super Saiyan's importance didn't last long, huh?

>>693903896
Powering them down? GT had the right idea, goku depowered and the first villain literally take Vegeta's body

>>693913634
increase skill ceiling for vanishes, massively slow down skill point charging, and re-implement ki charge speed debuffs for certain skills.

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I want this game so bad why is it $70?

>>693912821
I wish they expanded on this. Even after the ToP, the gods don't change their approach at all

>>693913578
Nah, Toriyama's still a shit writer. Simply reducing the level of average feats to pre-Namek levels without even the smallest mention killed so much tension later fights could've had.

>>693913769
Too much value in low costs exacerbated by the HP total way to win via time out. So if you're going to have less bodies you need to have someone who can easily deal with multiple low costers which puts you at 8 and up.

>>693913426
>I don't appreciate because Goku learned to control his emotions back in original DB in sparring sessions with Mr Popo
I remember that. It was pretty cool. UI could be the extension of that, I suppose.

>so the idea of True UI where he sees his emotions are a drawback/strength and has to adapt his form around his heightened emotions
Huh, wait what? emotions are a strength and drawback? How are they both? You're saying UI is about heightened emotions? I'm confused.

>>693913802
Yeah, I think a lot of people forget Beerus is a literal god who's lived through eons and have seen everything they can imagine and then some, couple that with the fact he's a cat so he's characteristically lazy and sleeps a lot and you have the perfect recipe for a universe with a low mortal level

>>693914095
So UI is the lack of mind in combat, Goku can dig into the power of UI without totally emptying his mind, he uses this technique to stack UI onto his saiyan forms, essentially powering up Omen from the anime.

>>693914095
>>693914243
Goku's True UI toward the end of the arc where he went back to his Omen appearance was him saying he was putting his emotions to work for him

>>693914243
>>693914346
What do you mean he ditches the concept in his next sparring session?

>>693913424
Nice, quoting Vegeta from DBZA

>>693904060
They already set this up
The top 4 universe had higher power and did not need to participate, just use those.

>>693914505
>higher power
Higher mortal level. Nothing says they were more powerful, just their their gods manage them better

>>693914423
He powers up to his strongest form to spar with Beast and his hair goes silver
So, the idea of True UI being something that puts his emotions to work and thus has higher output is introduced and then weirdly the silver haired form is just put right back at the top of the pecking order
I guess it's partly because Goku was so heated during the Gas fight but he has had emotional control for decades so that just makes it more weird before you even factor how UI is usually depicted in the manga as stone-faced and calm

>>693914082
6/7 stars have higher kill potential though and they can also bypass super armor. It's worth it to have atleast one character that's either 7 cost or can transform into one.

>>693904060
Except we don't know if that was everything the other universes had to give. take U10 for example that specifically just grabbed body builders, or U2 which focused on the ones most filled with love. Hell U11 only used Pride Troopers and Jiren may be the mightiest guy they could bring, there's potential for things the pride troopers put away like a Cell style jigsaw puzzle that was stopped before it could get the last piece it needed.

>>693900004
Agreed. The arc was somehow both too short and too long at the same time. Frieza being in a hyperbolic time chamber meaning “hurr different universe :)” is the stupidest shit. Skipping the broly arc in the manga was also stupid.

>>693914682
That's implying that HOLDINGBACKku wasn't holding back. He went Blue to test Krillin and was holding back. Goku couldn't sense Beast on earth despite Ultimate Gohan managing to ping his radar during ResF.

>>693914752
There's also the caveat that the gods don't seem to keep tabs on all the mortals in their universes. Broly went from weaker than base Vegeta to stronger than Super Saiyan Blue in only a few hours. He should've been a first round pick for the Tournament of Power. But Beerus nor Shin know who he is and they only had 2 days to pick contestants

>>693914701
Can transform into one is the key here, Why take Syn or Toppo when you can grab Broly (z) and also Roshi.

in my bag now in my bag now
what the fuck is that sound

>>693915060
Roshi's transformed state is the same cost as his base but i get your point.

>>693912821
>>693913903
>>693914229
Universe 7 being ran by a young hippie as the Supreme Kai and a lazy slacker as a destroyer resulting in a shithole that cranks out low level weaklings with the occasional genetic freak or super genius is great.
Other universes having different mortal levels and histories that shape their current state means that people from a different universe could all be Frieza Saga level powerhouses on average but never reach the obscene heights that Universe 7 does.
>>693914505
>>693914606
Mortal level shouldn't and doesn't equal power level. A utopian and prosperous universe brimming with life is likely to be very weak while a fucked up shit tier universe where everyone is being snuffed out before they can realize their potential is realised is gonna be equally weak. A large chunk of universe 7 was ruled by the Frieza Force for several decades until he finally got killed by Goku on Namek.

>>693906572
He got infected by the waku waku virus.

>>693908443
I know Nordic people braided their hair but show me a single historical depiction of a Nordic warrior with that specific nigger hair.

>>693909551
No I don't read ching chong. Nor do I care.

>>693915561
><synonymous term> and <synonymous term> aren't the same thing
>huh?? they are??? uhh chim chong ching chong stone cold AAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE me no speaky de chiney
Don't pretend that you're knowledgeable when you don't know shit

>>693915318
Roshi being 2 cost was what mattered in that post, for the cost of Sun you can get Zly and Roshi.

>>693915345
To his credit: Shin was forced into the position before he was ready. Buu killed all the gods in his rampage and Shin was the only one left. So really, this mess stated with his predecessor

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>>693905948
just after this kino sequence

>>693899942
>Why isn't a fanfic character from the promotional toilet paper in an official video game?
Gee anon, I don't know

>>693916240
holy kino

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>>693914884
Why are people discussing Super itt as if it actually had thought put into it?

>>693916156
I like how Buu just going around on a godkilling spree wasn't even enough to wake Beerus or even prompt Whis to wake him.

>>693916434
Beerus really should care. He SHOULD be dead. But Beerus is just a really powerful hedonist. If it's not food or a nap then he's not interested. Which makes it really funny when he chastised Goku for having the same flaw. He wasn't wrong. Goku is absolutely a battle pervert and he will endanger everyone to satisfy his lust. But that was a case of right message, wrong messenger.

>>693916434
Beerus wasn't even a concept back then.

>>693916434
Whis isn't supposed to intervene on behalf of the universe and even if he did Beerus locked away old kai and most likely would dismiss Whis' concerns.

>>693916650
What is Whis's job exactly? Is he just his taxi driver?

>>693899942
>caring about toyofaniction
KWAB

>>693907830
added worldbuilding/depth
didn't do much either way
shit since Dabura and Boo were established as the strongest beings in all realms without fleshing out these new areas, which is the same hole Super fell into.

>>693916697
Based on their complaints from the U67 tournament, the Angels are supposed to be caretakers + guides to their universe's respective gods. Vados and Whis complain to Zeno that their Gods of Destruction refuse to listen to their advice and just do their own things. To which Zeno threatens to remove them, which he decides against since they ended up entertaining him in the end. Also Battle of Gods establishes Whis is Beerus's teacher, enforcing the idea that Whis acts as Beerus's guide. Whether Beerus listens to him or not.

>>693916697
Whis is Beerus' boss. But he's really bad at it.

Pan has a fat butt! Fat!

Did 17 die to the human extinction attack?

>>693917781
No but Kid Buu probably killed him. Human extinction attack didn't kill any ki users.

>Kid Buu says nigger in his intro
A character befitting of a gamer, i will main him from now on.

I don’t understand how Gamma Burst Flash; a dbs manga only move gets in but literally everything else is off limits.

>>693901074
>>693901283
Still more canon than Goten’s character assassination in GT

>>693905012
First time his editors were right, I can't imagine a world where Gero and 19 make for an interesting arc, same with 17 and 18
>We hate Gero for what he did to us but we're bored so lets go kill Goku anyways for lulz

>>693919185
GT being non canon is not even up for discussion.

>>693917716
proof of this?

>>693901938
> Worst character we've ever gotten
> not GT Goten

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>>693919185
>>693919395
People always talk about how we were denied of a “badass Gohan” (even though he has several arcs and doesn’t care for fighting), but the bigger the crime is us being denied badass Goten. Guy actually loves fighting and his entire character gets derailed by Toei because he didn’t like a scheduling conflict.

>>693903791
>Goku and Vegeta are so stupidly strong
there's no real reason why other people shouldn't be able to get equally stupidly strong. I mean they pull gigantic power level leaps in short times, why wouldn't other people in the universe be able to do that as well?
hell, why not have a race with a longer lifespan that allows them to get even more stupidly strong?

>>693919550
weakest saiyan, weaker than pan

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>>693919686
That’s exactly my point. They wasted his potential to the point he can’t even put up a fight against pan. They wasted a kino design in teen goten for him to just job to a child who can’t even go super saiyan yet.

>>693919230
Dr. Gero had potential to be a main villain, he has history with Goku and energy absorption could have been an interesting power. 17 & 18 proved that they are main villain material when history of Trunks is so kino. 19 was the only dud since his design sucks ass.

>>693919852
Imagine being a Super Saiyan. A being that was once considered legendary, the very pinnacle of your race, and then you job to a toddler. If i was Goten i would fly into the sun.

>>693919852
>Literally peaks at 9 and his life only gets worse from there
What did Goten do to deserve such a humiliating treatment?

>>693911306
I thought mouth beams were reserved for evil characters

>>693920362
>implying SOCIOPATHku isn’t an evil character

>>693920362
I dont know why anyone would use them. From the description i've read of them using a mouth beam is supposed to be similar to vomiting.

>>693915957
Never said I was, slant eyes and or weeb. I don't care about gobbledigook.

>>693909321
>>693910067
Why are people complaining about characters using the mystical dragonballs to make a wish in the series called "Dragonball", named after the titular magical balls that must be gathered to summon a dragon and make impossible things happen with a wish?

>>693899942
Haven't the anime/video game side of the franchise really fallen out with the manga side, moreso since Toriyama's death?
Like they dont seek parity with each other anymore

is dragon ball even still going? are they going by some toriyama notes or just making shit up? do they plan on putting an end to it?

>>693920784
They've been doing fanfiction since GT. Toriyama wrote an end.