the whole point of MMOs is showing off to the other players all the shit you've managed to do, which is mostly a statement of how much time you've sunk into the game. No one would play an MMO that doesn't require any investment because there would be nothing to show off to others, they'd all have the coolest shit and achievements too.

>>696304153
The time has changed and people have no time to play mmos isnt that he reason mmos are dying in the first place?

Posting on 4chan is a non time-consuming MMO.

>>696304032
Why is there a Shiorin frog

>>696304187
MMO's are dying since the advent of social media, it has nothing to do with time to play.

>>696304032
This is like asking for porn that won't make you cum, the entire point of an mmorpg is to waste your time. It's for people who don't achieve much irl, and that can do it in the game due to work actually being rewarded.

>>696304187
>people have no time to play mmos
this is a (You) problem. Jobs and families weren't invented the moment you became an adult, they existed when you played MMOs as a kid too.

>>696304187
No, the reason MMOs are dying is because the availability of information on the internet (wikis, etc) has basically solved the games and turned them into optimization grindfests instead of adventure. And people playing with 15 tabs open and speaking on other websites like discord breaks the immersion when you used to do everything funneled through the game. Playing with people around the world was once a novelty, now it isn't. The gameplay of MMOs were basically an excuse for interactivity with other players and not really interesting or even intended to be interesting on their own.

Post more pepe chan

>>696304153
no that's the point of real life. MMOs are supposed to be sandbox/storytelling mixes that makes a large world fo explore and roleplay in.
You're supposed to produce in real life, not pay to work. that achievement of killing the big bad dragon is supposed to mean a big feat for your character, but thanks to your mindset people are paying to play the game and PAYING TO GET THAT SHIT BECAUSE THEY THINK ITS ALL ABOUT STATUS

>>696304187
mmos are dying because they are shit now and betrayed their roots. every other claim is cope.

>>696304502
You're describing an idealised fairy tale that isn't and never was real

There are two reasons to play an mmorpg, epeen for people who can't build any status irl and trannies for text fucking. No other reasons, the games are fucking boring as shit outside of these things.

>>696304502
Real life isn't fair, work isn't rewarded. In the virtual world is is, that's the appeal.

>>696304558
>>696304604
Your genre being in ruins and rife with addicts is enough proof of how it failed terribly as a genre.

>>696304502
the games were always about number go up and its the job of the developer to strike down anybody who breaks the rules, which tends to include things like botting and gold trading.

>>696304704
It's doing what it was designed to do, plug into the matrix.

>>696304704
I genuinely don't understand what point you're trying to make. I think you're just an assblasted ERP tranny who is for some reason upset that other people don't spend their time describing dog penises to other men while masturbating

>>696304704
the genre is in ruins because it started pandering to people who dont like mmos.
retards who cried about having to group up, having to grind and retards who cant handle hierarchy in a digital world.
turns out that ironing out everything that defined these games killed their appeal. crazy.

>>696304032
guild wars 2 is pretty time unconsooming
you CAN play it all day every day forever but now its so easy to get max gear u can go from 0 to caught up with the expansion in like a month

>>696304032
Old School Runescape Leagues

>>696304187
>no time to play mmos
Such stupid bullshit.
Find an MMO that isn't exclusively about raiding at endgame, which is pretty much anything except WoW.
The only way you don't have time to play an MMO at that point is if you don't have time to play video games at all.
Thirty minutes farming armor appearances is still playing MMOs.
A single hour rearranging your ingame house is still playing MMOs.
You didn't fail to play an MMO if you stopped less than four hours into a session.

>>696304032
There used to be this browser game called Witcher Versus, where PvP was handled on play-by-mail basis, while the singleplayer open-world gameplay was largely text-based. I think there was an energy system because I remember playing it in short sittings.
This reminds me of an unrelated text-based MMO called Urban Dead which had a stamina system, so your character could only do so many actions per day.

Well, it obviously depends on what you are looking to accomplish in the game. Like, you could play literally any game (MMO or otherwise) five minutes per day for a total of two hours before giving up on the game and if you had a good time then that was time well spent, no? If you are looking to accomplish specific endgame goals like completing large group content then that too is possible, depending on how exactly you expect to go about it.

See, the effort players in top guilds put into the game will expand to fill their free schedule as they take time off work when new games or content patches launch. If it takes 1000 hours to get to level cap, they'll get there in two months, but nothing prevents you from playing 1½ hours a day and getting to level cap in two years. If you can grind for power then they will do that, if you can't grind for power then they'll come up with some other method like leveling ten copies of the same character and doing 40-man raids ten times in such a way that loot gets pooled to 4 "primary" characters while the 36 other players are on their secondary characters. But you could opt to just play one character. These players might also try to do the content during the first week when it's at the edge of being mathematically possible, bashing their heads against the wall to eke out every last .1% optimization while praying for RNG god. But you could just farm easier bosses for a few months, get far higher stats than what players had in world first bosskill, and defeat it through brute force with not that much effort (supposing you are a "casual hardcore" player, shitters will have to wait until content is direct or indirectly nerfed to the ground... but you can do that, too!).

Even if the first example of playing games 5 minutes a day was "unreasonable", then you can "reasonably" play any MMO whatsoever with relaxed schedule.

>>696304032
Are there pasttimes that don't pass time?

>>696304845
Grouping up and hierarchy isn't the problem, the insane time investments are. Spreading the games thin with excessive padding, sitting on your ass autoattacking mobs for hours until the brainrot sets in. Make the games less of a brainless timesink, add more meaningful activities that respects your time and the genre will recover.

>>696304153
this, modern MMOs are also designed in a way to pit NEETs and Wageslaves against each other. The NEET or non-spender is simply there to mindfuck the Wageslave into spending to keep up and give them an audience to show off their wallets too.

>>696304389
This isn't really the problem, the problem is that the games are fucking old and people have been datamining them for 10-20 years already. Release new games and the problem goes away.

>>696304310
>the entire point of an mmorpg is to waste your time
Nah, that might be the point of some MMOs like Runescape, but there is way more to the genre than that.

>>696306486
load of shit. most popular genre right now is open world slop that wastes your time and never ending live service faggotry like fortnite and gacha. people have absolutely no respect for their time and they dont give a shit about gameplay either.

>>696306976
Those are like 1/10th as time-wasting as MMOs, there is no contest.

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>>696306723
To the extent "datamining" and games being "solved" is a problem, that won't do it, because the actual reason is people gitting gud at gitting gud. You know, metaskills. It's not that people people have played games like WoW 1.x for two decades (well, some have, but these people would mostly have done what worked well for them in the past and aren't responsible for new ways of playing) and incrementally inched closer to perfect theorycrafting. No, it's players who played through retail TBC/Wrath/Cata/..., absorbed the theorycrafting know-how that this larger community was accumulating, went back to the older version of the game, and then deduced correct play from first principles thanks to their superior understanding of the game.

And this will happen to new new games just as well as it can happen to new old games. Sure, there's some extra steps: high-end players in Wrath of the Lich King private servers would have worked on more advanced theorycrafting that was available during retail version of the game, but that was assisted by the fact that tools like SimCraft did already exist, the difference being that these more experienced players were better at using sims than they themselves or anyone else was back in 2009-2010. And it will take some time for such tools to appear for new games... except that "some time" might be pre-release if there's any public tests or leaks of private testing.

No, the demand is for games that simply are good, especially where it matters the most (atmosphere, combat responsiveness, etc - the sort of things that are present 100% of the time playing the game: it doesn't matter if the game has lots of new advanced features or cute waifus or super-hardcore raids, or even staggering innovation of not being 100% endgame raid-focused(!), if the moment-to-moment experience of playing it is crap).

>>696304032
PSOBB is over pretty fast, and play whenever you like. Same with Ragnarok private servers. FFXIV is a fucking massive timegate to get to the "end" but theres nothing there so technically it's the least time consuming when you're caught up anyway.

>>696304310
>This is like asking for porn that won't make you cum
80% of /gif/ wouldn't even make my dick twitch, whats your point

>>696307723
Casuals don't bother with that shit, when a game goes on for 20 years you lose the casual crowd and only the addicts and sweats remain.
Release new games and the casuals will return, at least for a while. It's really that simple.

>>696307723
Its true, retards crying about metagaming are clueless. Good games have good metas. Simple as.

>>696308010
That is also true. MMOs specifically always race entropy.
Its best explained by the way typical leveling areas are populated. Sooner or later they WILL die down because most people will be at higher levels. New players then have to work their way through content that is basically dead.
Its also a hard or maybe even impossible to fix thing. Would require extreme structural shifts to how these games were made for decades.

>>696308361
It might be time to get rid of leveling all together, why do we need it? It introduces so many problems, we could just have gear progression instead.

>>696308361
For the latter problem there's an almost complete solution: seasons ("almost complete" because it still afflicts the game during end-season, but to a lesser extent than if the game was four expansions beyond the last time low-level areas mattered, and empirically players join the game in response to new seasons, new patches, events like experience-boosts, etc, so exceedingly few players would join at the time no other players were joining also). Works well for Diablo2likes. Works well for WoW private servers. I see no reason why it wouldn't work for new MMOs, especially if you, you know, double down on the concept by for example doing Cataclysm-style revamps to select leveling areas in each new season as the timeline of the game world progresses, in order to keep the leveling experience FRESH. And, most importantly, make sure that moment-to-moment experience of playing the game is good.

>>696304032
Runescape is enjoyable even without sinking countless hours into it, because the journey is the game.

MMOs got stuck in the "game design" philosophy of the fucking 90's, and what they designed as "gameplay" is absurd trash that wouldn't work as a standalone game nowadays, whereas back in the 90's, the MMOs at the time would actually have worked as single player experiences, what this means is that the main issue with MMOs nowadays is that they just aren't good games.

>>696308992
Yeah and why have those tedious campaign quests? They're just annoying blocks to raid progress. And what about the travel time to and from raids? Everyone gets summoned anyway, just spawn everyone at the raid when the group gets filled. In fact, why do we even need to log into the game at all of we're not in a raid? Just put the group finder on the character select screen and log my instant 80 character into the raid directly when the group fills. Remove the world, WoW should be a lobby game like LoL and overwatch.

>>696309173
They might have worked as singleplayer games back in the 90s because singleplayer games weren't miles ahead in terms of gameplay like they are now. Creating an MMO with singleplayer-quality gameplay today is almost unthinkable.

>>696304153
this is pretty much the average dressupfag mentality. No wonder MMOs are unfun now

>>696308992
Leveling is linear progression thats not so hard to implement, making everything wide from the start is harder.
Likewise at some point the existing players will have farmed their gear at some point too. New content releases will also spread players further out even if leveling is taken out of the equation.

This is why modern MMOs treat expansions like soft resets where all the old stuff is basically pointless and the new content is where all the players sit. None of that has been pulled off very well yet though as the regular leveling stuff drags them down.

>>696309005
I have been playing Ragnarok Online on a seasonal server for a couple seasons. Its alright. Its interesting and different. But its also not for everybody. It panders to those who love starting from zero, pretty much like fresh WoW servers you mentioned. But not everybody likes that. If you are only in it for that rush it means stuff gets burned through much faster too.
I'm different the way I like being "set" in an MMO world. At the point where I kinda dont have to bother with the lesser things again.
I've also noticed a lot of burnout on said seasonal server. Redoing the same stuff more or less with just a few changes at most isnt all that interesting for everybody. For some it is of course.

>>696309323
retarded

>>696309362
lol you think gameplay actually improved in games since the 90s?

>>696308992
For one thing, because it's THE thing for casual players (who, at the end of the day, are the first M in the MMORPG and who make the game world feel lively, they are the backbone of the game's economy, etc), and I reckon most endgame-focused players also want it to be there even if it wasn't their focus. After all, supposing you have a vertical progression game at all (which you are alluding to with gear progression - one could of course do away with vertical progression entirely, but I don't think that's what players want), what's the alternative? Loaned powers with levels-after levels? No, that has the exact same problem as levels, except that it doesn't put you on globetrotting adventure, it doesn't feel "narratively compelling" (starting as a regular guy in a village somewhere and then, over time, becoming a hero), etc. If anything, I think the move of many contemporary games away from leveling being a relevant part of the game is a BAD THING both for casuals (for whom it's the primary appeal of the game that they can do at their own pace) and hardcore (who like to go hard and get the thing over with during their bouts of intensive gaming, without daily quotas or whatever forcing them to maintain the "progression-mode" for longer or worse forever).

>casuals ruin MMOs!!
>every single MMO that has prided itself on being hardcore and built for end game players has financially bombed
Interesting

>>696309323
Picture this, there is a level-less classless system where you build into various archetypes, you start off with a handful of starter skills that you choose in the beginning. Instead of leveling up to acquire skills you unlock them by doing quests, clearing dungeons, killing elite mobs and world bosses. You'd be able to pick and choose which skills to focus on depending on your target build, it would be a globetrotting adventure in order to find these skills and also gear yourself up in the process to tackle more challenging content. There will be a limited amount of active skillslots of course so players can't create something that does everything.
The gear progression would be vertical while the skills themselves are more horizontal in that they're more about expanding your repertoire of potential builds instead of straight power upgrades. It would mean that everyone starting out is viable and able to form groups within their current gear bracket.

>>696310480
meant for >>696309828

>>696309667
Consider: as a long-time private server player (starting from when I quit retail in Cata 4.0.6, although I haven't been active for a few years now) and an altaholic (playing mostly in server first guilds, it's always been expected that you have a couple of alts for split runs, but I've always had more than that), I've probably leveled 50++ characters through 1-60 content, and most of them through Outland/Wrath content, too. There can't be that many players who have leveled as many characters as I.

And yet, even if you only did it on one character, everyone would have done Siege of Orgrimmar that many times. And not over span of a decade, but weekly. When trying to get Raven Lord mount during retail TBC, I ended up doing heroic Sethekk Halls for 200 something times (and then soloing it 30 or so times once Wrath launched until I did finally get the mount). And yet, out of those 50+ characters, only a handful would have done e.g. Mulgore (although I've of course started many more characters than finished, so I don't think there's a starting area I have done fewer than 10 times), and while most would have gone through Shimmering Flats or STV, fewer would have done Desolace or Blackfathom Deeps. By all means they're intimately familiar still, but compared to how many times I've done any bit of endgame content pre-Cata, they're almost novel.

So, I think burnout in leveling content per se cannot be a problem (especially, if as I suggest, seasons revamp content). It's that, I guess, the content doesn't feel "relevant", either because the classes at low levels don't have the tools to do anything useful but autoattack, or because the content is too trivial to be taken seriously, or because party leveling is disincentivized (something as simple as shared quest loot will make it better, and lo and behold, people will group up and have fun doing so), something like that. But these are specific problems that can be addressed if the game focuses on seasonality!

>>696304032
There are, but they are mostly chinese and korean stuff where you can leave character auto farming. MIR is one of them

>>696309828
Another take on this is to have a pvp focused game with expendable gear that you lose on death to create circulation in the economy sort of like Albion Online. Together with a globetrotting adventure to acquire skillbooks and a fun action-oriented combat system I think we have a pretty solid formula.

>>696309909
And every MMO that has targeted casuals are all ruined

>>696310970
Just because it doesnt affect you doesnt mean it doesnt affect others.
Personally I absolutely loved leveling in WoW through every area but just once. So if I didnt visit a place on my first characters I'd try to wrap up the missing quests on the next one. But after that it was always a drag and I was always looking for exploits or other ways to speed things up.
Raiding is also very different to me because its often slamming your balls against the wall for weeks or months before you clear it. Thats interesting to me. Reclears are not. Many share that sentiment because guilds often fall apart after killing the big boss or straight up get worse at redoing it.
When WoW shifted to Mythic+ dungeon endgame many liked that it revitalized dungeons but personally I just dont like the idea of repeating them over and over.
In a way I'd prefer it if progressing through the game like leveling was five times slower the first time around than having to redo it all again from 0 at a faster speed.

I was always very ok with being "done" with chunks of content.
Its a different audience. Fresh servers usually dont maintain the hype and interest their original releases had either its happening right now with WoW classic and I've seen it on multiple Pserver relaunches. WoW classic itself was so big because many people havent seen that content in over a decade but if you asked them now to do it again they cant be fucked.
It really depends on the person. The "when's new fresh" people 100% exist but thats not everybody.

Recycling content in a smart way is probably still the way to go despite everything I just wrote. Generally devs need to think of ways to revitalize stuff in one way or another.

Getting rid of leveling would be great, just imagine exploring a brand new MMO world for the first time if leveling didn't exist, no one outleveling one another, no outleveling content. No 200 hour ramp-up to endgame that leaves most of the world as low level content, just hop in and play with anyone. The world is the endgame.

>>696312317
GW2 did it and it was very gay. Its not easy to pull off.

>>696312412
GW2 had leveling

>>696309736
Definitely, the 90s were nothing but sidescrollers, RTS, early attempts at 3d navigation and turn-based shit. We've progressed a lot since then.

>>696313404
jesus christ mmo threads attract the biggest retards.

>>696313453
I don't see an argument

>>696304032
Darktide

>>696304032
Why would you want to play a MMO if not to eat away all your hours?

>>696313671
To have shorter sessions of fun

As I've grown older I have found I don't want to play with anyone else. I like MMOs but I stick to the ones I can play single player or the private servers with bots.
I have zero desire to do the end game raiding poppsocking anymore

>>696304032
Host your own offline WoW server or play a private Tibia server that openly allows botting

>>696314105
That's just sad

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>>696304032
No.
Play session-based games, like hero-shooters.