Celeste and Spelunky are basically invisible compared to hollow knight, and silksong is slightly harder than most games. so yeah nobody expected the difficulty.

>>722389515
>Did all the retards spamming about silksong at every gaming event for the past 5 years actually hypnotize a swarm of people who never played a platformer before to play it?
actually kinda based
making platformers popular again

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>>722389515
Lace is worth it

Wait, are you telling me that popular things have a wide audience?

>finished most bosses in 1-3 tries
>people saying it took them hours to defeat bosses
>even people here crying about boss difficulty
I just don't know.

>>722389791
If you look at the steam reviews celeste is only like a rung below hk at 50k vs 150k (and 30k of that is from a silksong bump).
Spelunky I was surprised though both 1 and 2 are at 10k which is weird because I feel like this is on that everybody into indie gaming has played

>>722390445
I honestly can't fathom the boss complaints, aside from how annoying the adds can be. My main issue is that I get burnt out on every area being filled with spikes or similar.

>>722390694
I feel spelunky mostly got known through let's play rather than people playing the game

>>722389791
Silksong is hard but not in a fun way
I just don't feel like prodding it anymore. I realized it's not challenging me, just feels annoying and not interesting to push.

>>722390724
Outside of runbacks and add spam, some Act 1 bosses shouldn't have 2 mask contact damage while you fight them in a tiny arena.

>>722389515
I just finished the game 100% last night and I agree with everything you've said here. It's mostly just people bitching about small things in the grand scheme of the game because it isn't the correct fit of game for them, but they were pushed into playing it due to fomo etc. think Stardew valley fans and other similar indie game fans trying Silksong and ignoring the advice to play through Hollow Knight first.

>>722341630
The game is basically designed to ensure everyone will have something to complain about, from being new to "was this offscreen boulder necessary".

>trailer opens on a shot of the surface
>a sandstorm obscures the surroundings
>thudding footsteps are heard in the distance, approaching
>a giant steel leg enters the frame, belonging to a steel automoton wandering the surface
>it mechanically continues towards its destination
>suddenly, as it takes another step, the ground beneath its leg caves in
>a sharp cry is heard as its leg is crushed by rock
>black liquid spills from the resulting wound--void
>tears of void escape the steel giant's eyes
>eventually, the giant wrenches its leg from the debris and continues its trek, quietly moaning in pain
>in the hole where its leg had been, there are stains of void
>the void slowly takes shape. the stains drain into a puddle, and the puddle congeals into a stalky humanoid
>white eyes flash on its face--it's a shade
>the shade weakly rises from the floor, struggling to reach towards the steel body from which it fell, when a pale spark seizes its body
>it writhes as a white carapace conceals the dark empty form of its head. a green-gray cloak grows around its neck
>this shade, despite its meager form, is recognizable as the hollow knight
>apparently forgetting that it had been reaching for the steel giant, the knight takes in its surroundings, watching the violent sandstorm rage far above
>flashes of lightning are seen somewhere far beyond
>hollow knight: steelsoul

>>722390445
i don't know either, normal enemies are harder than the bosses
i'm on act 3 and losing the motivation to finish

i one shot the bosses with mods, dont see the problem

I think the more hilarious thing is that people like OP can't accept that Team Cherry fucked up and some people who enjoyed the original game did not like Silksong. So they spam threads about how the people complaining could NEVER have possibly played a platformer or metroidvania before Silksong.

The only thing I can't stand is bosses that can knock you back with a hit and then teleport on top of you dealing extra damage while you're literally still in the knockback animation

>>722389515
For me, it wasn't the difficulty, platforming or environmental hazards: the game lost it's magic.

Let me start by talking about hollow knight. The greenpath soundtrack was recommended to me randomly and it's what drew me in. I decided to buy the game, and every area: crossroads, greenpath, fungal, resting grounds, crystal peak...all felt magical, alive and lived in environments with their own bug civilizations separate from hallownest proper (city of tears, ancient basin and waterways).

Silksong didn't have that. The devs made every single area outside of moss grotto and shellwood a wasteland of some kind or the other. I wasn't playing Hollow Knight: Silksong, I was playing Hollow Knight: Fallout. Every area was the same: gloomy ass environment, "shit has already hit the fan" vibes, every NPC talking about how everything was fine "until the citadel/fire nation attacked". I get it Team Cherry, I got that the citadel is bad in deep docks, why are you still shoving it down my damn throat in bilewater and sands of karak?

It doesn't get better. I expected a parliament of elite bugs ruling the citadel, like the Celestial Dragons of One Piece. Instead I got a senile conductor, depressed lace and a radiance knockoff. Like, you're telling me the pilgrim bugs are going on a pilgrimage to a lawless city that's basically in zombie anarchy? Why are the ants in hunter's march even being oppressed if nobody's leading the city anymore other than a grandma the ants already resist? Where's my city of bones ruled by ants, Team Cherry, like you showed in the trailers?

Pharloom felt so soulless, playing it became a chore rather than difficult. The difficulty was fine, platforming was fine, but the environments....ugh. Even the citadel felt like "platforming level 3000" instead of a lived in city like in hk with multiple rooms, buildings and furniture. How do the citadel bugs even live, its basically white palace levels of danger spikes everywhere.

>>722390445
Many people don’t understand that with boss battles you’re just meant to take a second and learn the fight before actually doing anything.

>>722392562
Huge difference between failing once and shit taking as long as Pure Vessel.

>>722389515
It's just not fun, man. The devs didn't make it "hard" they just made it annoying af. You have to drag yourself through it with chores and painfully designed areas. At the end you end up liking it by pure Stockholm syndrome.
It's sad, really, because hollow knight was great. But silksong broke what made the original good. Let's hope they learn their fucking lesson in the third game by 2037.

>>722392654
I remember beating pure vessel once and deciding “yeah, I’m done”

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>>722392781
> Tranny didn't git gud
Join the 41%

>>722389515
The difference is Celeste is fun and doesn't put a bunch of flying enemies or arbitrary bullshit in my path to make the well designed area seem difficult when its not

>>722391671
"Let me start by..."
"...all felt magical, alive and lived in..."
"I get it X..."
"...but the Y... ughhh"
"Like, you're telling me..."
"I wasn't playing X, I was playing Y!"

Cut down on the cliches bro please. It's so close to chatgpt.

>>722393118
>redditoid tier ai detection
damn, bait harder bro pls

Team Cherry's boss design philosophy can be summarized as such
>Create an attack
>Watch how the playtesters dodge the attack
>Create a 2nd attack that overlaps where the playtester dodged
>Watch how they dodge both attacks
>Create a 3rd attack that can happen if the player goes to that specific area
>Also give every single boss in the game an ability to immediately back away after every attack
>For especially bullshit bosses give them attacks that can detect when you back away, and have the boss jump or teleport across the screen in order to do contact damage
They overtuned the game so hard I don't know if they even know how to make a balanced game.

>>722393513
git gud lol

Why ARE some people so shit at 2d platformers? It's like watching a baby learn how to walk. Are 3D games so watered down that people don't even know how to actually control a character anymore?

>>722393664
You know how everyone complained about Consort Radahn's bullshit X slash coming out instantly and then after a few weeks they nerfed it so actually have time to dodge it? Same issue with Silksong, but it's half the bosses in the game.

>>722391671
> but the environments....ugh. Even the citadel felt like "platforming level 3000" instead of a lived in city like in hk with multiple rooms, buildings and furniture

Wtf are you smoking Silksong's world feels super lived in:
>Choral chambers has multiple branching sleeping quarters, dedicated banquet hall, dedicated spa, vending machine dispensers for silk.

>Contrast with Underworks which has 1 pixel wide cramped bedrooms, rentable benches & workers clamoring over a frayed rosary string

>Shellwood + Far Fields have enemies that actually hunt and kill their prey when they're not aggroed on you. The ants have various stores and targeting ranges within the fields

>Shellwood's proximity to Bellhart and Sinner's Road proximity to Greymoor showcase how the society sustains on food. Both the Longpin + Tacks tools are tied to environmental design and world-building.

> The Citadel being a self-sustaining mechanical superstructure with the Cogworkers + other automatons extending and repairing the core in various areas.

>Hunter's March has ants that transport dead bodies + rosaries. You can also follow their trail to find the hidden switch next to the trapped bench.

Absolute soul

>>722393767
which attacks in Silksong are remotely comparable to X slash lmao

>>722393513
That second to last one is true of Lost Lace and no one else. And the rest I have no idea what you're talking about and I've beaten every boss in the game.

yes that is exactly what happened. including here on /v/. daily bump limit threads complaining about the last judge, gruel, etc.. the fucking tutorial tier boss giant savagefly /v/ was complaining about. endless bitching and crying about a LITERAL 15 second runback that involves fighting 0 enemies in the blasted steppes. there are a shocking amount of sub IQ shitters on this board masquerading as humans who's comfort zone is babycore nintendo games like mario wonder. I never would have guessed the silksong launch was going to go like this here on /v/, with /v/ getting hard filtered.

>>722389515
Name platformers that are harder?

I think what I hate about Lost Lace the most is the random bullets she can summon that fire off during her next attack.

>>722394662
Wings of Vi

>>722394424
No one expected the game to be balanced for people doing all binding no damage runs of Godhome.

>>722394662
Silksong is the hardest platformer ever made. If you beat it you're elite gamer - maybe even an autistic savant. This game was not designed for normal people.

>>722390840
ok noob

>>722390173
MORE

>>722394662
Aeterna Noctis
GRIME
Cybershadow
Guacamelee 1/2 (the combat and bosses are easy, but the platforming gauntlets require constantly using many abilities mid-air)
Rainworld

Just off the top of my head

In addition to this game getting memed into the sights of people who normally wouldn't touch it, difficulty tolerance has plummeted in the last few years

>>722394662
N++

>>722389515
Celeste has little variance and thus can be fully learned. Spelunky has shitton more variance that you don't care as much when you lose. Both games also slap you back into the action quicker. They also have better reputations as being games that can take a bit to beat. Silksong has something to learn but it's dynamic, and if you lose you're set back and have to make it up.

>>722390445
Most people don't realize in a classic style game priority one is not getting hit. Priority two is hitting.
You can't just DPS down bosses because they will kill you faster in a trade.

>>722395359
you can with the right build

>>722395274
No one wants to spend over an hour or more on absolute garbage like Groal. No one's going to go "Yeah my favorite part of Dark Souls 2 was Frigid Outskirts."

>>722395379
The people who are struggling are not playing the right build. The people with the right build did not beat the game.

>>722392562
It's not that. It's more that people are trying to be hyper aggressive retards that want to beat down bosses ASAP, usually because they worry whether they can survive a drawn out fight and losing all the effort/shells put into it. This is why Savage Beastfly was such a filter: the boss was designed so that the people used to just going ham and looking for the startup frame would get bodied, as the lack of a distinct frame for his "charge" and the deviance in how he flies up from the vertical slam catches them for days, but if you just backed off after a few hits, you were nigh untouchable and he's super ezpz

>>722395380
I like the odd hard boss that actually makes you devise a strategy to beat it. The trick for me with Groal was switching to the wanderer or w/e and pogoing on the edge of his big retarded head with enough space to bail if he did his gay dive

>>722389515
Obviously, my favorite thing about Silksong is the game itself. I have 75 hours in it where I 100%'d the game, explored everywhere twice over, got all the relics and mementos and psalms cylinders and mementos.

My second favorite thing about the game is the number of shitters screeching and wailing about how hard it is. I have not seen a single complaint about this game that wasn't obviously a skill issue. There's some in this very thread.

there are so many blue / red tools that can trivialize the entire game and ppl still getting filtered baka

>>722391671
Hollow Knight is a game made by people who were on the verge of bankruptcy, Silksong is a game made by millionaires.
> The greenpath soundtrack was recommended to me randomly and it's what drew me in.
Same, its exactly like you said, Hollow Knight is magical.

>>722389515
The need to fully consume something to move onto the next thing prevents people from enjoying a situation where they are not constantly making progress and and have to actually build skills to beat it

>>722395379
Difference is one person knows how to DPS bosses down after some observation and weaving through boss attacks, while the second person runs into the boss and spams attack hoping that by some miracle they can outdps the boss. Or just cheeses with architect and then gets mad when the bosses necessitate more than that.

>>722395359
>You can't just DPS down bosses because they will kill you faster in a trade.
You could with like 70% of the bosses in Hollow Knight and the fact that you can't in the sequel game is what is fucking people up. The game is strongly designed around doing 1-2 hits and then backing away to see what the next attack is. If you stay for that 3rd hit the boss will follow up with something you can't avoid.

>>722389515
Honestly really disliked hollow knight and forced myself to play it this month out of my friends' strong recommendation. The pace felt to slow and the enemies had really boring attacks for most of the game. I'm on Act 3 of Silksong and have been enjoying the game the whole time however.

Orphan of Kos took me like 3 hours across two separate sittings to beat, nothing in Silksong was even close. I am really surprised by the crying about difficulty especially here

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>haven't been able to not use thread storm since I got it, any new skill immediately was swapped back to it
>even posted damage numbers show it shits out a bunch of damage, more than any of silk ability, especially with the tool that boosts silk skill damage
>also great as a crowd clear
I'm sure next playthrough I'll actually try to use anything else, but it's not my fault it feels so good to use.

>>722396054
Thread Storm is definitely the "never bad to have" ability but Cross Stitch is my favorite, it lets you be so much more aggressive in fights since if you end up in a spot where you can't avoid taking damage you just parry instead

>>722396130
If cross stitch actually tracked the enemy you parried it'd be goated

>97%
>It's just shit from Grindle who I forgot existed
Easy 100%, BUT I have to care enough to make my way back out of the Abyss.

>>722396225
it usually doesn't really need to since it just has an aoe that covers like a third of the screen, but it would be really cool if you could parry a projectile and teleport to the guy that threw it and fuck him up.
That would be a good tool combo bonus, if the game had any of those. If you have Scuttlebrace and Cross Stitch then it changes the counter from a big aoe flurry to a single attack where you teleport directly above the enemy and drop on them like a spider

>>722396130
probably with cross stitch is that you might pop out of it in an equally bad or worse spot

>>722392953
Sorry to tell you but silksong is a tranny game made by and for trannies. Not him btw.

>>722395910
>The game is strongly designed around doing 1-2 hits and then backing away to see what the next attack is.
Bitch playstyle. Cuckold simulator game. Apparently it has some sentimental value for "people" obsessed with quarter muncher "games", but it makes sense why most people don't like it. Why would you play something that makes you feel like a bitch all the time? Some weird masochism-related sexualitty issues?

>>722396785
All the greatest games are being made by trannies nowadays, like BG3 and E33. Signature of quality

casuals were a mistake

>>722390445
I spend like 10 tries waling on the boss trying to bruteforce it before actually starting to play attention.

>>722389515
there was a thread earlier today where a dude thought the game went to shit in act 2. nigger that's the best part of the game.
>>722390292
the wrong people tried to play this game. like this faggot >>722390840

>>722390445
you have to get into the mindset of the casual. the dude fundamentally does not play games to be challenged. he might as well be watching tv. the very idea of "i need to not press buttons for a bit and observe/think about what to do" is enraging to the casual. it brings him out of the trance.

>>722396869
You get long lasting iframes after the animation ends to reposition

>>722397028
When was the last time when you were seriously challenged by something IRL?

>>722396054
i like silk spear. i don't really use silk skills tho cuz i'm an unga bunga
>>722396885
same. after enough times it starts to click. i start watching the boss, stop dashing around like a retard, controlling my breathing when adrenaline spikes. etc
at least 3 times i've said it's the last attempt b4 i take a break then end up beating it bc i'm so calm.

>>722397125
video games my guy

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>HORNET THOUGHT SHE HAD IT ALL FIGURED OUT
>"I'm a warrior-princess. As in, warrior and princess. Kind of a big deal, y'know."
>SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS THE TOP BUG
>"Yo, my fight with the Knight is going viral. #Ownage"
>BUT NOW--
>"Oh my God, I'm being KIDNAPPED!?"
>[record scratch]
>SHE'S "PHAR" FROM HOME
>"That's like- really cliche, this is the 21st century."
>[Shakira music starts playing]
>NOW SHE'LL NEED HELP FROM SOME NEW FRIENDS
>Shakra: "I sell maps."
>Hornet: "Lame."
>Shakra: "And I can chop heads off with these rings."
>[beat]
>Hornet: "Less lame, keep talking."
>WHO'LL SHOW THAT EVEN THE SMALLEST BUG
>Sherma: "Oh my gosh I'm so nervous"
>Hornet: [halfhearted encouragement] "It's fine, just- do it"
>Sherma: "ROCK AND ROLL"
>CAN MAKE SOME NOISE
>[Sherma starts producing dubstep with his bell]
>IT'S THE BADDEST BUG
>Hornet: "I'm taking names and hugging fleas- and I'm all outta fleas"
>AGAINST THE MOST SINISTER SILK
>Lace: "I'm gonna KILL her, and drain all the silk from her body-- IT'S NAAWWWT A PHASE, MOM!"
>Grand Mother Silk: "Bye sweetie, have fun with your evil plan!"
>Lace: "UGH-"
>From Illumination:
>HOLLOW KNIGHT: SILKSONG
>Hornet: "#HornetSweep, nerds"
>Garmond starts rapping faster than Eminem

>>722397254
ok... this is awesomesauce xd

>>722397125
not him but i ride a motorcycle and recently moved to a mountainous area. my previous job was a tree trimmer. my new job is more laid back but still requires a decent amount of thought and labor.
silksong is great.

Claiming lace as my wife

>>722390863
On top of that no boss should ever have contact damage when they're stunned.

>>722397552
Probably what threw me off the most when I was first attempting Sister Splinter, you knock her down and she still has an xbox huge attack range on her flailing. I don't know if that was part of the things nerfed about her, but it took me a few tries before I got what I was doing wrong.

you literally cannot defend groal's runback and having to do path of pain just to get double jump

>>722397797
Mount Fay is easy mode. However I cannot defend having to climb it at least 3 more times afterward.

>>722396885
>>722397164
My problem is that I have an insane need to jump and dash. Even as I end up facetanking attacks. Once I figure out how to turn that off, I start doing far better

>>722395821
>The need to fully consume something to move onto the next thing prevents people from enjoying a situation where they are not constantly making progress
Yeah I'm glad I'm taking it slow
I basically stopped playing video games before Silksong came out and it's the only game I'll be playing for the next year

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>>722397750
>xbox huge
>>722397797
>double jump
mt. fay was really fun and kinda easy but still a good challenge. i really wish it was longer. you might be a bitch
>groal
i'll admit, /v/ told me about the hidden bench that makes it 10x easier otherwise it's indefensible other than the fact that it's supposed to suck ass.
i was in the stupid hole with the breakable wall. i can't tell you how many times i missed a breakable wall bc i didn't see it or my attack landed on the wrong pixel so i ruled it out. fml.

>>722398006
i don't play vidya in the summe but started early bc of silksong. i was gonna play other games this year but i'm definitely gonna start another ss run when i finish then probably replay hk for the first time in 7 years

>>722393513
I mean, sure... but learning how to deal with these things is the point? The appeal of hard boss fights is learning them and having something that felt befuddling in the first moment end up being an easily repeatable feat afterwards. The combat design is one of the more universally praised aspects of the game.

>>722389515

I never played either Spelunky or Celeste. I don't like these type of games but I loved HK because it does not really test your platforming skills until White Palace. So I expected SS to be more HK.

Jokes on me, I guess.

>>722389515
After reading enough of silksong discussion, I've realized what's the issue with "difficulty" here.
People who attempt to approach the game actively and aggressively end up absolutely eating shit, because there are many mechanics specifically created to punish that attitude.
At the same time, people who play this game "methodically" (TL: like a bitch) and patiently waiting for when they will finally be allowed to hit an enemy once after it stops chimping out for 15 seconds, get the consistent performance and clear most encounters without any issue.
The game is specifically designed to punish aggression and reward passivity and reactivity.

Conclusion: If you struggle with this game, you need to lower your testosterone levels somehow. It also should now make sense why all autistic AGP troons here love it so much.

i think my own problem with the game is that i didn't feel satisfaction for beating any of the bosses, except perhaps first sinner which i really enjoyed.

it probably has something to do with the fact that the entire moveset of the game doesn't really fit most bosses well, so the game feels like trying to sink a nail by hitting it with a screwdriver.

i also don't like some aspects of the input, like putting your silk skill on a neutral trigger position and traps on up/down trigger positions, which means that you need a pretty huge trigger deadzone in a game that often requires quick direction changes.

>>722398528
>People who attempt to approach the game actively and aggressively end up absolutely eating shit, because there are many mechanics specifically created to punish that attitude.
Ironically, this is how Hollow Knight worked, you spammed i.frame ground pounds until it was dead.

>>722397890
Climbing it once you have the double jump is super easy though. On the first screen stick to the right side, you can walljump up and then clawline followed by double jump to go around the ledges. This skips the entire left side of the map. The other screens are similarly easy with double jump. (And if you're on Act 3 with the soar then it's even more free.)

>>722398775
I think it's clear that a core goal they had with the sequel was to make it play distinctly differently than HK did.

>>722398659
Do you play with the dpad or an analog? I don't really understand your complaint about the tools.
Hornet's moveset fit the game really well to me. She's much more agile and has a lot more options to quickly close distance or back away. Which is perfect for the more fast paced and mobile bosses the game has, and to deal with the increased amount of evasive flyers in the game.

>Wasted 700 shards trying to use tools on Lost Lace
lol, I'm not walking back through the Abyss for this shit. If she didn't die with tools she'll die without them.

>>722399532
Lost Lace is a fight I had no desire to use tools on. It usually felt like cheating and I'm glad I beat her fair and square.
No qualms about busting out the cogflies and bombs on a lot of other bosses, though.

>>722398659
You're playing the game with fucking sticks?

>>722399032
analog obviously (the point about deadzones doesn't make sense otherwise) since the dpad is not really in an ergonomic position on the xbox one controller.
i think a good deal of my complaints would probably be resolved with a gamepad that has a good dpad, though i do believe that games should play well on one of the most common gamepads by default.

i played with keyboard for a bit as well and it's a significant improvement, but i prefer a more relaxed sitting position for singleplayer games

>>722400286
i 100%ed the game with sticks, yeah

>>722400373
That's fucking insane. But no wonder you're complaining about the game then.

>>722400308
I play with an xbox one controller and the dpad is good. I'm not really bothered by the positioning I suppose, and it certainly is way better and more precise than analog. I legit cannot understand people who use analog for platformers. I can't really judge myself since I'm not used to it and have decades of muscle memory with dpads, but it seems extremely awkward and I kinda wonder if people who have trouble with the precision needed for bosses are using it.

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>>722389515
Literally yes, drooling retards bought this game purely because of the hype without ever even having played the original game and then complained it was too hard

>>722396054
Speaking of Thread Storm, anybody test the nerfs to it on the public beta yet? And the Sharp Dart, Cross Stitch, and Rune Rage buffs for that matter?

Here's what someone else's testing got them for the blue tools that actually scale with crafting kit level now:
(Max needle / Max crafting kit)

Current patch vs Grand Reed:
>Claw Mirrors = 30+36 **[66]**
>Claw Mirrors + multibinder = 30+30+48 **[108]**
>Snitch Pick = 10+10+5 **[25]**
>Sawtooth Circlet = 13+1 **[14]**
>Wispfire Lantern = 10
>Memory Crystal = 20

Public beta branch vs Grand Reed
>Claw Mirrors = 51+16 **[67]**
>Claw Mirrors + multibinder = 51+51+24 **[126]**
>Snitch Pick = 10+10+5 **[25]**
>Sawtooth Circlet = 27+1 **[28]**
>Wispfire Lantern = 17
>Memory Crystal = 34

>>722390445
the Tree Sentinel effect
lots of people including streamers keep attempting to kill a boss and failling because they think: reachable = meant to be killed right now

>>722401613
The fact that they put the entrance to Hunter's Marsh in the critical path to Deep Docks through Marrow is kinda hilarious. Almost all streamers I've seen play it fucked themselves by *immediately* going into that area, and then proceeding to repeatedly bash their heads against it, sometimes even without finding the bench just past it. People are so stupid I swear to god.

>>722400853
yeah, it also has a significant amount of stick drift so i can't actually use any of the silk skills or tools consistently lmao

>>722401527
is the memory crystal any good? what does it do?

>>722401613
The funniest thing is that the game constantly signposts which are the easier, more intended paths and which are the areas you should revisit later as they're more difficult:
>The bigass ant guarding Hunter's March with intentionally bloated HP and double damage.
>Shakra telling you to go left first instead of right in Greymoor so that you can find Halfway Home and Reaper Crest.
>Not getting access to see Bilewater's map until you get a late game upgrade, similar to Fog Canyon in the first game.
>High Halls being the only one of the three melody areas that is completely gated off by clawline.

>>722402196
don't you have to go thru hunter's march to get to dry docks? i though the lava pool gates you from going marrow -> deep dock until you activate the platform from deep dock
>bigass ant guarding Hunter's
i thought he was there to teach you to pogo attack + dodge. i mean it's all kinda hard to a beginner but i thought it was intentional. can you actually go to deep docks from the marrow first?

>>722402436
Yes you just go down from Grindle's prison.

>>722389515
People are complaining because it's full of annoyances, not because it's hard.

>>722402532
>full of annoyances
But it's not.
"full of annoyances" is unironically just cope from people who think it's too hard. If you don't find the game too hard, then it's not annoying.

>>722389515
Don't be an insufferable retard anon. Silksong is considered by the vast majority of players to be a challenging game. It is by far the hardest game most casual gamers, 99% of the HK fan base will ever attempt to complete. And no, getting good at HK does not make you a hard-core gamer. Get back to me when you've played a three more decades of video games and we'll talk.

>>722402612
OP mentioned a bunch of harder games which are less annoying tho

>save is 12 hours in
>still 5 hearts
this is my biggest gripe

>>722398659
Even on a dpad I don't like the tool input desu. It's pretty stupid that needolin gets a dedicated button but not a core combat utility.

>>722402680
I'm finding a fuckton of silk upgrades but I still only have 3 mask pieces.

>>722402642
Celeste's B sides and some of the hidden tapes, are absolutely more annoying than Silksong.
Celeste is still cool though.

>>722393664
It's an action game more than it is a traditional 2D platformer. There's barely any platforming challenge at all.

>>722398528
20 IQ nigger can't outdps the boss, calls everyone with a brain "bitch".
Shieeeeeeeeeeet

>>722402776
I enjoyed the platforming in cogwork core and mt fay

>>722402994
do you really want to pretend that all video games are NOT balanced around bosses having way bigger hp than the player? i think some classicvania losers could be beaten like a total retard, but even then you'd be relying on stunlocks or subweapons

Did anyone else find that clawline only clicked for them on Mt Fay's first ascent?

When I first got clawline, it took me fucking ages to get out that room in Deep Docks. I mean a long fucking time and it was janky. Then when I started Mt Fay at first I thought man there is no way I will be able to do this, like I was struggling to even make a start. But then once I understood how to Clawline properly it was easy and fun. I think for a long time I didn't realise that Clawline gave you a free hit + free pogo on enemies. I'd thought that if I clawlined an enemy it would just drag me into their hitbox and I'd take contact damage.

>>722402436
Another victim of >>722401808 I see

>>722403585
No, though it did take me a bit to figure out that the clawline is also the solution the game expects you to use for flying enemies, and to get used to using it more often during combat.

>>722403585
>it took me fucking ages to get out that room in Deep Docks
>I'd thought that if I clawlined an enemy it would just drag me into their hitbox and I'd take contact damage
...did you try to skip the flying dummies that they put in the tutorial after getting clawline, which are required to reach the top, and which exist there explicitly to teach you that you can use it on enemies?
I mean, that sucks if that's the case I guess, but I don't think anyone could claim that was not properly telegraphed in the tutorial.

>>722392953
Does using volt vessels in the water actually hurt Groal when he's already dived into it? Would be kino if true, I just bommerang spam him now that I've beaten him without tools (never again)

>>722391671
Yeah, i absolutely agree with this. Pharloom is supposed to be more populated on paper, yet it feels like a desolate shithole in comparison to the first game's kingdom.

>>722404280
>dead kingdom, which at this point has started to return to nature in the outskirts, but from the looks of it used to be a well-managed and prosperous nation other than the whole vessel miscalculation
vs.
>capitalist slave labor shithole that is actively falling apart in real-time, and was built on the foundation of killing nearby competing kingdoms and polluting the shit out of all the surrounding lands

I agree that the environment in silksong feels oppressive as fuck, and I'm not going to lie and say I didn't wish it let up on the grimdark to let you breathe more often, but the difference in tone makes sense and seems very intentional.

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>>722404030
>...did you try to skip the flying dummies that they put in the tutorial

I thought I had to use clawline to close the distance between me and them without touching them, and then downslash. That's how I escaped that room without actually learning how to use clawline lmao.

>>722404597
It's not really about the theme of the game. They failed to create environments that feel "alive" in the same way Greenpath or Fungal Wastes were.

>>722404784
Shellwood? Far Fields? Mossy Grotto (though that's just a tiny tutorial area.) But it's hard to tell what your particular criteria of "alive" is. Pharloom just has many more "bug-made" environments, as it were, and it doesn't help that everyone is fucking dead, and the silk everywhere prevents nature from flourishing. HK was more of a wilderness, but I think that's in fact because of the theme. They have just as much world detail in the urban areas, f.ex. >>722393827

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*batters you to death without magic god powers, without a significant weight advantage, without needle or nail, while singing and dancing and being hot*

>>722389515
Celeste doesn't have runbacks and Spelunky is a roguelite where you're expected to die a lot.

>>722390797
nah spelunky was just never on the same popularity tier as celeste/super meat boy/shovel knight. people who play it know that its pretty much the top tier of platformers, but its far more difficult than any of those and is more geared towards a niche audience. i was put off from it by its artstyle for a long time as well 2bh and i think other people probably had the same experience, although I appreciate its art style now.

Fellas, what do you think about this theory from leddit?

>Let's start from the beginning. Except we will skip the era of bugs with massive hearts because who knows what really was going on back then.
>
There are some bugs doing bug things in Pharloom. Grandmother Silk appears and uplifts common spiders to be weavers, because she wants her own children.

>And I'm not going to bury the lede here -- I don't think that she was actually much involved in the fate of the land after this. I don't think she was a "poor ruler", I think she was not trying to rule at all.

>Who was, then? The upper caste of bugs that resided in the Citadel (much less grand at the time, but that's another story) and weavers themselves, who became revered by lesser bugs for being chosen by a higher being. The two formed a pact to get Grandmother out of the way. Why I can not say for sure, since according to my theory Grandmother didn't do much to deserve such treatment. It is completely possible that she was, in fact, an obstacle to the power grab by the Citadel.

>So they seal the Grandmother using weaver's silk skills and the melody concocted by conductors, and put her to sleep. Everything after this point is out of her control. This includes Verdania, Bilewater, Coral Tower and more.

>Crucially this whole little adventure is not disclosed to the masses, and to most weavers. This detail will come into play later. The masses still think they worship a deity, do their pilgrimages, toil in the underworks, and pay for benches. The ruling caste meanwhile tries to come up with ways to extend their lives, hence whiteward is born. They inject silk into shells with mixed results, but mostly the project is a failure in all ways except one: everyone has at least some of the Grandmother's silk inside them now. The implications of this, of course, become obvious once the Haunting starts.

cont.

>>722405561
>But there is a conflict brewing in the high halls. In essence, the alliance with weavers overstays its welcome. One, weavers are an actual object of worship (although not the main one), so they pose a threat to the ruling caste if they decide to lead the masses. Second, supporting Grandmother's slumber requires silk, and someone who is able to use it. While this is not a particularly hot issue, this does force some weavers into either essentially slavery, or maybe even sacrificial role, we don't know exactly.

>Enter the First Sinner. Remember how I said that most were in the dark about the true nature of things? My bet is that the sinner found out, after years of indoctrination, that her own kind sealed their own progenitor, and that the whole land is built on lies. She tried to spread the message, but of course, such undesirable elements had to be dealt with, so she was locked up in the slab with no possibility of parole.

>Unfortunately for some big wigsmasks this was enough to trigger an exodus. Terrified of their mother's wrath if she'd ever waked up, many weavers decided to skedaddle yesterday. Now that (most) weavers are gone, the Citadel is forced to apply even more pressure on the ones that stayed behind (Widow), and to search for some of those that escaped, to keep the cocoon from ever thinning. Eventually this is not enough, although it is also possible that the failure was caused by the lack of conductors to continue the melody. Either way, this leads to Grandmother waking up and getting really really angry.

>Now for some wild speculation: I am not quite sure that capturing hornet was a hostile act by the Grandmother. It is within the real of possibility that she simply wanted her children back but was not very bright and this was her best idea. This is supported by the fact that none of the cages we see have bodies in them. I guess she could have consumed them, but why? She looks like a nice lady without cannibalistic tendencies.

>>722404597
NTA, I don't really agree that they failed to make the place feel alive, but it did somehow do something to make me pay less attention to the world. I want to say it lacked that hooking moment like with The Hollow Knight statue, but I don't think it can be as simple as that. It never occurred to me that Bilewater was the consequence of the Putrified Ducts. I never thought about the Blasted Steps once being where the Coral Kingdom once stood. I thought it was weird how Karmelita was still alive, yet the ant kingdom was just a bunch of stragglers in far fields and Hunter's March. I even felt a bit robbed that Verdania couldn't be explored after the memory, so that when you had been introduced to its beauty you could see how far it had fallen, even if there was nothing in it.

Stuff like this never clicking with me, combined with how the central conflict of Lace is so in the background, is what I guess left me wanting that one thing that had me piecing together something bigger when exploring, but that never happened. I'll make it clear I still found the atmosphere fantastic, and I would intentionally avoid fast travel just to take in the sights, for what that's worth.

>>722403312
All I'm saying is mindless button mashing untill the boss is dead IS playing like a bitch.

>>722405661
>It never occurred to me that Bilewater was the consequence of the Putrified Ducts.
I believe Shakra mentions when you talk to her that these lands were polluted by the runoff from the citadel or something. There's also more indirect hints about it in the various lore panels around the area though those focus more on the aspect of how the residents fucking despise the citadel for it.
>I even felt a bit robbed that Verdania couldn't be explored after the memory, so that when you had been introduced to its beauty you could see how far it had fallen, even if there was nothing in it.
If you go past the Green Prince to the place where you can get the map for the area, I believe that area is in fact what remains of Verdania. It's just dead caves and ruins, and if you pay attention the layout roughly matches the first main room in the memory.

It's a shame the story didn't click for you. I actually felt like I got more of the story while playing the game here than I did with Hollow Knight, where I had almost no idea what was the background for what was happening before reading up on the lore theories afterwards. However, I did feel a bit less magic just exploring the place, though I just attribute that to my mindset/emotions outside of the game then since I was kinda depressed when it came out.

>>722394424
>babycore nintendo games like mario wonder
Mario Wonder is more difficult than Silksong. It takes real platforming skill. Silksong difficulty is just repetition.

I give this game a lot of shit but the entire Mist -> Phantom section was the best take on the Lost Woods I've ever seen

>>722394662
Anything on the NES. If you talk about the actual platforming, pretty much every platformer out there.

Hollow Knight and Silksong being cheap is really the only particularly noteworthy thing about the games and that's irrelevant if you're either not poor, pirate, or just wait for sales.
Both are 7/10s at best

>>722390445
Most of the replies are bullshit, the simple truth is that most people played like two platformer games in their lives total and Silksong doesn't ramp it's difficulty gently so it ends up in the same way as a kid trying to play a flute despite not knowing how to hold it correctly
Game literacy is an unironic problem in this industry and there are barely any games that even try to address it

>>722405610
Don't listen to redditors who lust over GMS
>My bet is that the sinner found out, after years of indoctrination, that her own kind sealed their own progenitor
This bit right here is the crux of retardation. Weavers are incels. They can't breed. The first sinner would have been directly involved with imprisoning GMS because every single weaver that is 100% pure blooded was already spawned. There's a reason all the upgrade abilities refer to Hornet as "sister spider" because the Weavers were literally all sisters relatively speaking.

>>722407079
>there are barely any games that even try to address it
Nintendo.

>>722389515
Celeste is difficult but not punishing (plus most of the difficulty is in extras). Has half the total reviews of Silksong after years of being dirt cheap and bundled with anything.
Spelunky is not too difficult, but punishing. Has 1/10th of total reviews of Silksong.

Silksong is both difficult and punishing. It also gives enough rope for players to hang themselves by taking harder challenges early, or fail to use the best tool for the job.

>>722407478
>fail to use the best tool for the job.
I never really used tools much in this game, especially the offensive ones. I figured that you needed to learn the boss' patternd anyway, so getting a small boost you constantly have to worry about running out was not worth it.

>>722407626
I don't mean literally tools. Crests, skills, trinkets too.

you guys were right, first sinner is an S-tier boss fight. i didn't mind about not respawning at a bench because i didn't use tools at all.

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WE BUILT THIS CITY

>>722407829
It can feel a bit dirty using tools after a while. At a certain point you become more interested in how you can overcome whichever boss you're facing organically. Like what have I actually proved by throwing a bunch of tools?

>Act 2
>Still not enjoying the game
I think I might just play Hollow Knight again.

>>722389515
Silksong's platforming is easy. Of all the seething I've seen about Silksong, the platforming is basically never part of it. Are you arguing with the voices in your head again?

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>>722408287
>Like what have I actually proved by throwing a bunch of tools?

>you didn't actually win dominion over the earth
>t. animals

>>722397125
What's your point? I don't understand it.

Do I have enough time for nail upgrades in the 5 hour challenge?

>>722402183
When you get hit, a copy of Hornet is created at the spot you took damage, which then explodes when an enemy gets near it or Hornet attacks it. It's ok, decent to slot in if you don't have the other blue tools necessary for your build but never something I would permanently equip.

>>722408295
Silksong has higher highs but lower lows than Hollow Knight. Liking it over Silksong is completely understandable.

>>722409438
I'm at Act 2 now and I haven't experienced any of the "highs" of the game yet.
I just think it's a downgrade so far.

>>722389515
On the one hand, metroidvanias tend to be a pretty easy genre compared to straight up platformers, so the expectation for an easy experience was not entirely unreasonable
On the other hand though, it seems like more than half the people who bought this game didn't even know "metroidvania" was a genre to begin with

>>722389515
You just reminded me. I still haven't done the aubergine run in Spelunky 2...

>>722409058
The 1 hour speed run gets two nail upgrades, so yes. Obviously don't bother with the gourmand quest.

>>722409192
NTA and I never used Memory Crystal but can it be pogo'd off of in order to cheese platforming sections in Mt Fay?

When I was doing Mt Fay, especially the interior, I wondered if the reason they put the Memory Crystal in at the start of the area was so that when shitters kept taking damage on the ascent they'd have 1 or 2 extra things to hit on their next attempt.

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>>722409601
>it seems like more than half the people who bought this game didn't even know "metroidvania" was a genre to begin with

I truly believe most of the complaints about difficulty came from people who had never even played Hollow Knight. They saw everyone they followed online talking about Silksong's release and rather than enjoying Hollow Knight and getting up to speed at their own pace, they chose to jump into Silksong blind to feel part of [current thing] and got their arse blown out.

>>722389515
correct, spelunky, and NES ducktales were my go to arguments at people saying silksong hard, like, you have never played video games before. you are a secondary if you think this basic wall jumpy platformer / combat is hard, Contra also comes to mind as another one where if you lost to the boss, equally as "hard" as silksong you don't get no bench you START THE WHOLE GAME OVER. complaining about 2 screen runbacks LMAO im getting real tired of secondaries in this "industry" ruining everything for ACTUAL GAMERS and maybe im just old now but remember when vidya was JUST for nerds? who the fuck are these people? why is the government getting involved with fucking everything now?? its maddening I hope they all fucking die.

>>722409601
>On the other hand though, it seems like more than half the people who bought this game didn't even know "metroidvania" was a genre to begin with
No you don't understand I NEED to do Hunter's Path and Savage Beastfly THE MOMENT I find it, why would I go elsewhere for upgrades and new abilities, backtracking in a Metroidvania is NOT RESPECTING MY TIME.

>>722409695
I don't know because I equipped it once after finishing that area. Besides, cold damage is not handled the same way as normal damage, so I don't think it would do anything.

Tips on fighting Shakra she's literally too fast for my geriatric motor control

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>>722410286
>cold damage isn't handled the same way as normal damage

What I meant was like say you had Memory Crystal equipped and took contact damage from one of these guys, fell down, didn't die, then made it back to the same spot. Would there then be a 'crystal memory' Hornet just floating there in the air next to or near this little grey guy, which Hornet can then pogo off like a cocoon?

>>722410141
In metroidvanias, if you can access an area and reach a boss that means you're capable of beating it. If an area is locked off due to not having the proper ability to get through a room that means you aren't capable. Sequence breaks are the exception, but hunter's march is not an area you reach by sequence breaking you can walk right in.

>>722410719
"You can" and "You should" or "You are meant to" are different things anon

>>722410860
And how does the game communicate said differences to the player?
Usually, they don't.

>>722410921
If you're getting your ass beat you should go elsewhere and find more powerups.

>>722410860
And how is a new player supposed to know that they aren't meant to be in hunter's march so early? I can go in, it may take a few tries to beat the ant guarding the area but I could do it, and I can get all the way to savage beastfly. The only thing I would be thinking is that the game ramps up the difficulty a lot sooner than hollow knight.

>>722411027
What if I'm just bad at the game?
How does the game communicate the difference between "you need to go elsewhere" and "you need to practice more"?
Be specific.

>>722391536
Act 3 can be finished in like 2 hours casually.

>>722411126
That's up to you to figure out. It's a skill as well.

>>722411126
>What if I'm just bad at the game?
Then have some self-awareness instead of being stubborn.

>>722411052
It's about taking the hint anon. You're the type of timmy to waltz into a cartel-ruled favela and only know you're out of your depth when your being gangraped by 10 methed out 6ft trannies.

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When I did Hunter's March early game I didn't realise you could make the boodytrapped bench safe so I was doing a full runback from The Marrow every time I died to the giant ant and the flyer ant that guard the room at the very top full of rosaries.

Eventually I just gave up on them. When I came back much later, killed them, and found out that all that was behind them was fucking beads I was seething.

>>722411171
>No answer
Thanks for confirming you couldn't asnwer the question.
Concession accepted.

>>722411171
>silkfag resorts to the skill issue argument when a player is capable of clearing an area earlier than intended

>>722411207
trolled:D

>>722411207
The reward is becoming stronger and faster and chronic arthritis :))

>>722411236
The player i'm talking to clearly isn't able to clear the area earlier than intended.
>>722411230
If there are still unexplored spots on the map, it's up to you to understand that you can go there instead of bashing your head against a beef wall.

>>722401613
I knew the Tree Sentinel wasn't meant to be fought straight away. Still did it anyway cos I'm stubborn as fuck. Wasn't too bad.

>>722410719
>if you can access an area and reach a boss that means you're capable of beating it
I feel like there are fairly common exceptions, but it's just not the kind of knowledge you'd file away, you just carry on.
Didn't nine sols had a charge up parry check boss, and infinite regen boss available to try?
La-Mulana had Anubis miniboss that required book of the dead, and there was some miniboss in the twin labyrinths that needed the time stop lamp.
I vaguely remember needing to depower a boss in Axiom Verge, on top of some tower structure I think.
>>722410921
By kicking your teeth in? RPGs do it, why can't metroidvanias.

>>722393513
Mario might be more your speed anon the bosses in those games have one attack pattern you have to learn and you just jump on their heads, it’s pretty easy.

>>722411446
But that's fine. The problem is people that don't realize they can come back later, or a that do but still stay in the overwhelming fight and bitch about it.

>>722410719
The start of Hunter's Path has an enemy that will beat the crap out of you if you don't have dash. This is to teach you two things. First, there will be times when you need to progress and get new abilities first before backtracking. Second, pay attention here because this one is important: sometimes the obstacles are simply difficult enemies instead of platforming obstacles. If you can't accept that then yes, that is entirely your problem and not the game's.

For as much as I dislike the wish system overall, the immediate aftermath from freeing Bellhart is a good example of it being used well. Once you free it, you chat with the NPCs and discover one guy you can sell relics to, and another guy who will upgrade your nail, with the first one being free. After that, the wish board gives you two extremely important wishes. One is to go back to Greymoor and kill craws, which means if you haven't discovered their home then you probably will, clear their gauntlet, then explore up and get Thread Storm and the triple dagger. The second wish is the Silver Bells one, which encourages you to explore the bellways underneath the town, find the exit that links up with the Marrow, which is right next to, guess what, the Hunter's Path entrance, which is now doable after you've gotten all the abilities and upgrades from Deep Docks, Far Fields, Greymoor, Shellwood, and Bellhart. And just in case you're still having trouble, right next to the Hunter's Path entrance is the jail entrance which now has a challenge that gives you a crafting upgrade.

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>>722411126
You don't need anything. You can choose between practicing execution against a hard boss, or you can explore a path you've passed on earlier, or you can try to tackle a different combat challenge.

>>722409881
>I truly believe most of the complaints about difficulty came from people who had never even played Hollow Knight.

Expecting people to play Hollow Knight first in order to play Silksong is retarded. You don't need to play Sonic 1 to play Sonic 2 or Mario 1 to play Mario 2. People shouldn't have to play HK to play Silksong.

It's a self-inflicted problem, and by self I mean the devs inflicted it on themselves. They're the ones who got the brainwave of starting Silksong's difficulty level where it ended in HK. They didn't have to do that, they could've done what 99% of sequels do and design it for brand new players.

>>722411729
>The start of Hunter's Path has an enemy that will beat the crap out of you if you don't have dash.
With over 100h on the original Hollow Knight I recognized the need for dash instantly, but fought him because I refuse to back down lol

>>722411795
>Expecting people to play Hollow Knight first in order to play Silksong is retarded
no? it was supposed to be a dlc to it.

Yeah maybe they should've taken newgays into consideration before dumping what is essentially an expansion instead of a new game. The difficulty curve does need some work.

>>722411901
But it isn't. It's a new game, one they went on record saying that it was a good entry point for new players

>>722389515
i honestly think it fucking sucks because the entire difficultly is just based around contact damage, which stinks in a melee based game

>>722411901
It's not a DLC. It's a separate game. It doesn't matter what it was "supposed" to be, people buy it who have never bought or played Hollow Knight and it needed to be balanced for them.

>>722411769
So the game doesn't comminicate anything to the player?
Thanks for confirming this fact.

>>722411951
well I guess they lied, I don't mind tho lol

>>722409881
It’s very appropriate for the “Huge Silksong fan excited to play it for the first time” meme

>>722411971
>it needed to be balanced for them.
but it's not and it's a success anyway funny how that works

>>722410921
Because the enemies and platforming are harder than anything before then and in the other areas you have access to? Even not counting their faster and more varied moveset they take more hits to kill. It does help if you've played the first one as they never required you to pogo that early on but even if you hadn't you can see the sudden difficulty spike when they expect you to make multiple jumps above spikes

>>722411994
Correction, you do need some IQ points to recognize options presented to you.

>>722412235
>posts zero examples
lol

>>722389515
>Because I've never seen a game whose difficulty is just above average for the genre generate such an insane amount of bitching about every little thing.
Then you're incapable of comprehending those posts, because they're not complaining about the difficulty. They're complaining about the annoyance.

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post yfw "I remain a daughter of Hallownest"

>>722412437
that's a cope lol

>>722412498
>that's a cope lol
Every single one of these responses is an admission of ignorance.
The only way you can engage with the criticism of Silksong (and any game you like) is to pretend it's saying something completely different. When you're corrected, you accuse the poster of "coping".
It's an endless cycle that goes nowhere, because you simply are incapable of understanding. If you were, you'd have gotten it by now.

>>722412306
Examples of what? Holes on your map? You can't even keep track of your reply chains.

>>722412758
>Examples of what?
The thing I asked for. You can't even keep track of your reply chains.
>How does the game communicate the difference between "you need to go elsewhere" and "you need to practice more"?
Be specific.

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>>722411994
>>722412306
see >>722411729

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>>722412818
And I've told you, you don't NEED anything, retard. You have many options, if one's not working, you can try another.

>>722412437
You've got some lessons to learn anon. No one ever wants to admit their own lack of skill, so they dress it up with complaints like
>it's not like it was hard, it was just annoying

>>722391367
I played through Hollow Knight. I like exactly this kind of game.
It's designed in a trolly and sometimes outright retarded way.
A game that is intended to be difficult, in a genre I like, is still capable of making poor design decisions. "It's supposed to hard" isn't a blanket immunity to criticism.

>>722412834
Wrong game, that's HK not SS.

>>722412962
>posts zero examples of the game communicating to the player
Concession accepted, again.
Thanks for confirming you have zero examples, again.

>>722412692
I guess I'm dumb and can't understand how you got such trauma and didn't like the game
lol

>>722413009
>Wrong game, that's HK not SS.
Oh no, he's retarded enough to not comprehend comparing the same design choice between two different games.

>>722412965
No one ever wants to admit their own lack of comprehension, so they dress it up with complaints like
>You're just a coping shitter
You won't even attempt to look deeper than that. You won't examine the parts that are being criticized and try to understand what's different from all the difficult parts that aren't being criticized.
You've simply decided, ahead of time, that all criticism about annoying design choices is players whining about challenge, with nothing further to it.
There is nothing that can be done with people like you. There's no point talking. You wear your own stupidity as a badge of pride.

>>722413080
*yawn*
come back when you have a relevant example, kid.

>>722413130
ok

>>722413130
Your post would be reasonable if we did not have, in this exact thread, happening literally right now, someone shitting diarrhea after being proven wrong.

>>722412986
I think you're just in that unfortunate zone where Hollow Knight was just right for you, but Silksong kept the difficulty curve going up to a point you couldn't reach. For me Hollow Knight was kind of easy, but Silksong hit the sweet spot.
It's for this reason I think it could have benefited from some sort of casual mode for those kinds of players.

>>722413046
>I guess I'm dumb
Yes.
>and didn't like the game
I like the game. I like the challenge. There are parts of it I don't like. How is that so hard to comprehend?

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>>722395112
>>722396962
he's right. Silksong isn't too difficult it just isn't fun enough. I've had enough of it and the furthest I got was first sinner

>>722413297
I dunno, but you sound gay and I don't understand gay

>>722413237
I prefer Silksong to Hollow Knight in almost all ways. I love a challenge.
I don't love constant developer trolling and I don't love deliberate tedium masquerading as difficulty.

>>722413336
That goes without saying, since you don't understand anything.

>>722413484
that's profound lol

>>722413235
I don't know what posts you're referring to, but assuming you're correct, one idiot doesn't meant that everyone who has identified problems with Silksong is wrong.

>>722391671

You get to see all sorts of civilizations in Pharloom, all of which have been ruined by the Citadel's expansion and pollution. Wisp Thicket's fire shamans seem like an exception for existing but they're still hostile to outsiders.

I'm surprised that Silksong didn't have its Deepnest equivalent claustrophobic horror area. Seems like a missed opportunity for a game that focuses on weavers (mostly extinct but still).

>>722406926
Stumbling onto that place organically is one of the best moments in Hollow Knight.

The game is hard, but it isn't too hard. I just feel there's a lot of things in the game that are there as gotchas which means it's just not fun. I'm tired of flying enemies who move just out of range whenever you jump towards them. I'm tired of trying to run past an enemy only for a flying enemy to appear beside him or for him to jump. I'm tired of platforming sections that end up being just long enough that it gets tiresome. I'm tired of every minigame needing you to spend 20-30 minutes on it, especially those with heavy RNG. I'm tired of every boss having multiple phases and either having several waves of weak, time-wasting enemies before it or having them appear during the fight.

That's how I feel when I play Silksong, tired of everything because it's not fun to play, it's just tedious. Everything is just one step too far.

>>722402776
So we're most platformers back in the day

If you dont laugh when you die to the Hunter's March bench then you're not gonna like Silksong.

>>722413325
>First Sinner 30 hrs in
You're using guides

>>722413781
>I just feel there's a lot of things in the game that are there as gotchas which means it's just not fun.
I found them fun. We are not the same.

>>722413781
The game barely has any gotchas outside of the lore relevant gotcha areas

>>722414016
My guess is people who find that type of stuff fun probably had abusive parents or some type of past trauma in their life. What was it for you anon?

The whole "it's not hard it's just tedious" is the biggest cope on the planet. Get fucked, casuals.

>>722414016
>the gotchas are fun
>>722414053
>the gotchas don't exist
Which is it?

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>>722411207
These aussies are spiteful mfs but fuck! It was fun. I enjoyed it. It's amazing if ones could handle. Bilewater for an example was such a fucking shithole. no bench from bellways then a lord of the ring's journey then a gauntlet and yet they have me to fight a boss!? with maggotwater!!! even the signs are mogging me(get it? It's a ludo shithole huehuehue). fucking crazy, but god it was fun as shit. most fun I had played a modern game. they won't let down nor benting knees to please the "fans". such a refreshing experience after so many rollslops. they knew what they were doing. they made a game for ppl who are enjoying it and themselves. they have my respect. On the other hand, we have these egomaniac fucks, who think they're some jackshits. refuse to engage in any kind of brain exercise but expect to be rewarded. their ego are so large, a simple dead end spikes could send them sky high(as an insult to their mechanic prowesses). I'm not good and never pretend to. there are always rooms to improve and have fun with it, but how are you going to improve if you don't even want to admit your mistakes? //thx for reading my blog

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>>722389515
>If you hate boss runbacks, play on permadeath!

>>722414105
Nice projection. I just think games are allowed to do all sorts of things instead of just handing stuff to players. Also, it's fun seeing a friend or streamer walk into the same trap as you once did.

>>722414105
Its funny
I dont know what to say bro

>>722413904
I "beat" the game without using guides but I never went through the mists at that point and never found bilewater. After that I used guides to make my way to first sinner (the final boss I wanted to fight since I'd heard it was fun, and it was) since I didn't feel like spending more time with the game than was necessary. I really don't see what that has to do with anything though.

>>722396785
you sound like a closeted homosexual. tell me about your relationship with your uncle.

>>722413781
>I'm tired of every boss having multiple phases and either having several waves of weak, time-wasting enemies before it or having them appear during the fight.
This only really applies to Groal and Savage Beastfly which are definite low points in the game

>>722414181
it's whichever one helps further their point at the best time, you do know git gudders don't use actual logic right?

>>722414229
based

>>722411729
They could have easily put a gap that requires the jump dash to enter hunter's march. Enemies being tough without the dash isn't a strong argument for you not being there, a lot of enemies that are much easier to fight with the clawline can be found before you can get it.

>>722414305
The enemy spawns during Groal are there for your benefit, free silk

>>722413130
Annoyance is a subjective experience, challenge is an objective measure.
You can get annoyed at boss adds, or you can plan to spawncamp them with tools or silk skills.
You can get annoyed at a run back, or you can savor the tension and search high and low for a secret respite.
You can get annoyed at stingy prices taunting you at the merchant, or you can keep exploring and find 8 all new areas to pilfer and a dozen of quests to complete.

>>722402774
hard disagree that they are more annoying

>>722411126
You go everywhere and run out of alternatives and at that point you just work on whichever seemed like least of a brick wall.

>>722414274
I don't get how you can find First Sinner's key but not Bilewater

>>722390445
I have a friend who's been hard stuck on Last Judge for almost 3 weeks now. I can believe people are awful at this game.

>>722414857
I didn't find it until after Bilewater. I didn't fight First Sinner until after I beat Act 2 and specifically went back through the mists (cuz i also missed Phantom) and Bilewater to find the key

>>722414927
How? Last Judge's moves are all so clearly coreographed and have such generous windows

>>722415000
>how is someone bad at a video game i found it so easy
gee anon maybe because they're bad at the game

>>722415056
But 3 weeks?

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>>722389515
this is you

>>722415000
They're just bad probably, we've just told him to try Sinners road instead at this point.
Absolutely none of us are telling him admit the judges suicide attack.

>>722415239
sorry your waking sim was btfo by whatever from game came out that year

>>722414857
I did, came to ducts through memorium.

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>discover sands of karak or whatever this morning and i liked the feel of the area
>slowly find that its another brutal climb like mount fay and think whatever's up there is probably just as cool as the double jump wings
>get to the top
>conch tool
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA what the fuck even else is in this godforsaken desert

>>722416572
;)

>>722416572
You'll see...

>>722416572
a fucking chestnut!!! what were they thinking!??

>>722416572
7 years of development for timed platforming :D

>>722416572

You DID find the crustnut, right?

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>>722416572
Conch tool rocks though?

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>>722417028
yeah i found the nut, it was the last thing i needed for the gourmand. found the putrid ducts and currently taking a break blitzing through that hell hole. fuck the ceiling niggers and my thumb hurts.
>>722417114
i like summoning lightning from the heavens more since it looks cool

>>722417354
Leading the puking mosquitoes into the Half-Life barnacles was the best

>>722416572
>>722417354
The conch tool is just a red herring, the real reward is the volt filament and I think you'll like it.

>>722394662
Super Mario Bros.

>>722413675
Bilewater is the Deepnest of the game

>>722413675
The problem is they’re all destroyed, and for some reason nobody’s rebuilding anything even though the citadel has no real government anymore to oppress pharloom. Ants irl build complex structures rivalling human infrastructure, and the trailers showed hunter’s march as a large bone city. What we get is just pogoland cuz “citadel destroyed it all”. This “lore” is used again and again in a lot of areas outside the citadel, and it felt repetitive and lazy as hell the 11th time it’s used.

>oh cool, new area!
>it’s all destroyed
>npc: we were fine until the fire nation attacked and we aren’t rebuilding anymore, just rot and die as we eat roach guts kek

>>722406926
Mist was a cool little area, I ended up leaving it til almost last though because the first time around I didn’t realize what I needed to do to get through it. I was too busy running from the ghosts and I thought I would have needed something special to progress. When I came back near the end I knew there couldn’t have been any more items to help there and that’s when I realized how to get through it. I thought it was well done but they could have thrown a hint somewhere to let you know you were able to finish it first time there.

>>722420372
The hint is the moths flying towards the exit. The rest is up to the player. I loved that area because it allowed me to bypass Last Judge.

>>722404280
That's the point :OOOO

In truth the problem with Silksong is that it’s boring. It’s a boring Metroidvania where you don’t really feel rewarded for exploring. The vast majority of ‘secrets’ are absolutely nothing, not even an interesting interaction, piece of lore or location. Just some paltry amount of rosaries.

And this just compounds with how long and obnoxious the maps are. It all feels pointlessly padded put. You aren’t growing smarter, stronger or even faster as you explore. The skill ceiling is low and you aren’t getting meaningful upgrades. Everything is just a chore for you to reach the boss then get absolutely nothing of value out of beating it. You’re just meandering about the world.

Silksong is the kind of game where less would have been more. A tighter game with all the good shit compressed together. Not this time-wasting purgatory.

>>722420596
Speaking of last judge, is there anything special that happens when doing that? Like does anything actually change in game?

>>722419694
I felt it was cool how the Skaar treated the Far Fields as extended hunting ground for them where they actively attack the fertids and hardbone hoppers.

It's kind of if like the Mantis Village was mich more expanded in the original and they were actually hunting and eating the shrooms in the Wastes. Stuff like that and the pond catcher NPC in Bellhart makes it feel like a more dynamic world.

>>722420960
You get a different cutscene for the start of Act 2 but no real change in world otherwise, I think

>>722390445
There's some difficulty spikes
>hunter's march, lol
>judge and graol have brutal runbacks
>skarrsinger is just tuned quite hard, tougher than lost lace imo
>high halls arena is gruelling
But all are fair, you can skip hunter's march, judge is supposed to be a huge roadblock & you can fight phantom instead, graol and high halls arena have cheese strats.

>>722421071
I get Graol if you didn't find the hidden bench, but Judge runback is like 30 seconds

>>722421141
Some people don't realize there are shortcuts and also try to fight every enemy

>>722421071
i hate bilewater

>>722420962
Agreed, that and the hunters in shellwood attacking the water skipper bugs are two of my favourite dynamics in game. The game should’ve had more of those.

>>722420860
It doesn’t help that half the lore tablets you can find is “pilgrim go here” crap instead of, say, telling us more about the bird bugs in greymoor or the religions that existed before the citadel’s takeover that the chapel maid alludes to.

i honestly dont know why people struggled with hunters march all that much
enemies are a bit tanky but not hard to deal with

exception: the beast shrine. You get to do savage beastfly WAY too early in exchange of an abysmally bad reward

>>722389515
All people who are brainless sheep that just want to be part of the popular thing. Same people that picked up Elden Ring but never touched a souls game just cause Elden Ring was popular and then bitch about how hard it is.

>>722421141
Some people also literally don't find the bell bench and go all the way from the bottom. I've seen it happen.

>>722422072
My friend that never played souls before started with Elden Ring and loved it. Didn't bitch much except for the Giant for some reason.

>>722421352
I too once hated Bilewater. It must've been when I was younger, less wise to the ways of the world.

>>722422309
There is absolutely nothing fun about bilewater.

>>722422682
And yet it calls to me. I walk its halls and pogo on its puking retards, swim in its maggot-infested waters and feel... at peace.

>>722422784
Based but also you might have been an indian in your past life

>the bonebottom shopkeeper becomes an enemy later that you can fight in the marrow and he drops tons of rosaries
>theres a double ball miniboss fight in a secret silksoar area in the cogworks place

HOW ARE PEOPLE STILL FINDING SHIT IN THIS GAME

>>722422682
I liked Bilewater and I didn't even find the secret bench

>>722423591
But did you find the Weavenest?

>>722423202
It would be fun if Team Cherry added always a little secret area to each "bug fixing" update just to keep people on their toes :^)

>>722423669
Since you could find that one easily when going from Whiteward: Yes
I found so many secret little nooks and crannies but for the life of me I couldn't find that bench. I did beat Groal on the third try though.

>>722395910
>>722396785
Lol you only have to play evasive like that if you aren't good at the game. You can definitely play hyper-aggressive on almost every boss without RNG fucking you up if you just tighten up your movement and take care about the timings of when to do what. Only a few bosses have random movement of the kind that would dissuade you from staying in their face, and it can be played around too.

>>722423202
I heard of the shopkeeper
Fuck is the miniboss

>>722423683
>bug fixing
ooooohhhh now I get it

Aren't most complains about tedium about segments that last less than one minute if you don't do them like you are playing in steel soul mode?

>>722424256
ohhhh the annoyance ohhh the tedium baka desu senpai

>>722424062
The only bosses where I fully respected there movement was the Beastfly when I was first starting out and Lost Lace's telefrags.

I think the only time I got annoyed with the game the way people describe was having to "stop" in act 3 to do the fleas minigames for the pale oil + the races for the heart fragment
It broke up the flow of an otherwise 10/10 conclusion

>>722424620
I do find it hilarious how Act 3 was the urgent end of the kingdom scenario but then that's where TC crammed it with silly minigames.

The screeching during the flea festival was especially kino.

>>722390840
Honestly this. No meme the game is too hard. I finished Hollow Knight and haven’t played Silk Song though, I’m just talking about that game. The emperor is not wearing any clothes. Game is fucktarded in the amount of secret bullshit hidden everywhere, backtracking, long ass fights where you miscast into enemy hitboxes and get rekt in the blink of an eye. People didn’t make games like this not because casuals got filtered and modern game design trannies we’re dumbing games down, but because it’s fucking retarded.

>>722424843
Personally I'd have moved the flea festival to act 2 then put a pale oil in the abyss or somewhere hidden with silk soar.

>>722424256
It's the Joseph Anderson complain, flying enemies are bad because you can't hit them with your nail also tools are bad and I won't use them why is game tedius?!

>>722394424
/v/ being bad at games is nothing new. there are always rooms for casuals, but by god, there are some posers out there, and It's always soulsfags

>>722419694
99% of the bugs in the game are haunted by the silk goddess, exactly like how 99% of the bugs in hollow knight are haunted by the radiance. there's no rebuilding happening because nobody is free, this is on the nose when it comes to bellhart for example. which in fact starts to be rebuilt after you save her, and the same goes for songclave tied with sherma's quest.

>>722413781
>Everything is just one step too far.
That's a good way to put it. It's like they got everything just right and then decided it all needed to be pushed just a little bit into obnoxious territory. And any one thing on its own isn't so bad, but the game is full of them. 80% of the enemies are just annoying to fight, not so bad in the first few encounters but over the course of a whole game, just incredibly tiresome. All the runbacks are carefully tuned to slow you down (which is directly obstructive to the fun movement abilties they give you) and sap your time and energy, when you just want to get back. And so many of the bosses and two-damage enemies are huge and move in slightly dishonest ways to catch you out and damage you. Everything does its hardest to be open to attack for the minimum time possible.
I'm reminded of a game called Driven Out. The fights in that were complex, challenging and fun, with lots of pattern learning, finding openings and so forth. But in that game, every enemy was only fought once. In Silksong, you're fighting the same enemies over and over again. Even when you fight new ones, most of them are just slight variations of what you've already seen, with a couple of different annoyances. It's just too much and there's no restraint. Especially when you have to grind, revisit enemies to do quests, run back because of a stupid death, etc.
It's like they wanted every enemy to be a little miniboss that halts your progress and demands your full attention. But in a game of this scope, that just doesn't work.

Now that the dust has settled and I've had time to reflect on it I realize this game sucked. Not even worthy of a GOTY nom but will be put there due to all the years of hype.

>>722420860
This was my issue with Hollow Knight

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Shaw

>>722414504
You are able to do the hunter's march early if you want though, why would they remove that? You can both beat the big guy at the gate and clear most of the zone without dash. You just have to be good at the game. It's not the game's fault if you can't clear the challenge without upgrades; either come back later or just practice.

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>>722414504
Wtf? Why would they put this puzzle so early? They should not give you challenges this early and not hint that you should leave it for later!!

Doing Hunter's March early gives you access to one of the strongest tools in the early game when you get dash.

>>722425448
You don't have to use any tools, just the hookshot. Huge chunks of the combat are designed around you using the hookshot as much as you can. People just have a mental block with it, I just watched a guy stand around on a wall during the coral tower trying to nail a single one of those non-attacking blob mobs with tools instead of just throwing the fucking hookshot.

Same people who will then complain about "evasive flying enemies" or "slow fighting" by the way. No opinion on this game can be taken seriously without footage.

>>722428896
I'm not asking for that. I'm just saying that if an enemy being difficult but not impossible without the dash is the only indication that you shouldn't be in this area without the dash, that's a poor hint to the player. After all it's possible to get through the ant guarding the place without the dash, and a new player isn't going to know that the dash isn't in hunter's march. However the guy I was responding to is saying it's the players fault for pushing through and clearing an area earlier than intended instead of realizing that because a fight was hard it was a sign that they're missing an upgrade.

>>722429346
Clawline is so fucking good

I wonder if they should have gotten rid of the silk requirement

>>722429648
It's not the player's fault if they get Catacomb'd by the ants
But it's also not the game's fault for letting players access it early game

Simple as

>>722429675
in my opinion, yes, but I think they left that in for the platforming challenges so you couldn't spam it if you miss a ring/bug/flower/whatever

>>722429648
I don't really agree with the whole idea of "the game tells you to not go here" anyway. People whose playstyle is explore until they get stronger will gravitate towards that regardless of what the game does. And if someone can beat the big ant at the door, nothing in the level itself should be too much trouble.

>>722428708
heh

>>722429675
>I wonder if they should have gotten rid of the silk requirement
Then I'd never use anything else in combat. Silk requirement is what stops it from being OP

>>722389515
Honestly it's shills who are trying to increase the odds of Clair Obscur winning GOTY. Everyone else are retards who jumped on the bandwagon.

>>722430180
How much brain damage exactly do you need to believe that the discussion on 4chins can influence goty outcome?

>>722430180
Not everything is a retarded battle between games and their fans

>>722430304
some people are stuck between sikrit club and the influence on the web stage just because they post on the infamous hacker site 4channel

>>722430180
who actually gives a shit about game journo awards

>>722407079
you could've included a good portion of soulslike veterans who at the start of a Steam review had to disclose that they have experience with hard games, before jumping into whining territory, that they forgot that actiony 3D games and 2D games are extremely different in how they play - almost like you're in a different (2)Dimension while playing Silksong

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>>722391671
>reddit spacing
>dogshit opinion
>one piece fag

>>722403770
i found the bench in marrow tho. i thought you were supposed to go thru hunter's. can you actually just get to deep docks from the marrow?
it was hard, but i thought it was good game design to force players to learn pogo

>>722430935
literally no one except paid shills

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This game isn't hard BUT... words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words