>>1238145
You answered your own question
>pvp
>with 2024 society
People view video games as effort vs reward, so theyll cheat and cheese to win over you. Any gathering of modern society has one inevitable result, this is why -all- mmos are garbage post 2000.

its simple, the only people they attract are people that don't want actual pvp, but want to fight people that have no chance against them
you start out with the megaguilds > guilds > solo gankers > pve players
the pve players get tired of being farmed, so they leave
then the solo people have no people left that they can bully, and they get now only getting bullied themselves so they leave
this repeats over and over until the only people left are hyperautists that "won" and no one else has a chance against
then the new fresh game/server comes out, and people imagine that this time they will be the topdog and the whole cycle repeats

>>1238387
very objectively unquestionably true if anyone that claimed to like hardcore pvp epic style was actually telling the truth theyd just play one of the thousand competitive games same exact thing with survival game players that supposedly like it cuz of the pvp no you just like winning fights you cant possibly lose

>>1238387
This sounds like every Archeage server.

>>1238457
yes, but also basically every other "PvP" game ever too
and Ashes is one rich retard trying to recreate arcehage so it is going to go exactly the same way

>>1238145
I'm just not interested in giving money to gay pakistani drug addicts that loiter around children's hospitals

>>1238145
If you have been following the dev for any amount of time you would know that ashes is doomed to fail because everybody associated with the project is an actual retard. Everything else about the game is irrelevant.

>>1238592
>everybody associated with the project is an actual retard
>>1238586
>gay pakistani drug addicts that loiter around children's hospitals
Info please?

>>1238387
Pretty much this. The thing that always makes me laugh is watching things like the associated subreddit or forums for the games. You see it happen in real time. PvE players complain, they get bashed, git gud, etc statements from everyone above them. So they leave, and then the solo gankers who were telling people to git gud start complaining. Rinse and repeat till dead. And its funny cause when you bring up how this genre is dying, they'll say things like "Oh well this MMORPG from the 2000s did just fine! Yes in the past 20 years the only games still alive in the genre are EvE and Albion, but that proves it can work!"

Meanwhile Albion only survived cause it put heavy restrictions on PvP and designed content in such a way that you can play loads of content either without pvp or restricted to only small groups, 1v1, etc, and made it so gear loss isn't that big of a deal. Its a well designed popular pvp game, don't get me wrong. But not sure I'd consider it a sandbox game. However it shows if any of these pvp focused mmorpgs are to survive, they need to design their game with these problems in mind. And many don't.

>>1238713
it is more than that though
the pvptards think any safe zones or anything like that as what is "killing" the genre
like that retard that posts the same fucking image every thread
for the game that they envision to work you need a permanent underclass that is constantly being exploited by the pvp aspect that they do not enjoy and they want there to be no way for them to escape from that harm
then they are SHOCKED that people don't continue to play a game where they are punched in the balls every 15 minutes
it is like trying to imagine that a feudal-type society could function with 90% of the population being bandits and warlords, with 10% of the population being farmers and craftsmans that are essentially slaves...but the slaves have the option to just leave but don't

PvP MMOs have a tough time in EU and NA because WoW has taught them that PvP can never be fair and fun.
Full-loot PvP is a huge redflag because they are expecting to be camped by high level rogues that are going to steal years worth of progress from them.
You should just accept that PvE themepark players are getting filtered by PvP. Those games are still very popular everywhere else, with Albion probably being at the top.

>>1238387
This. PvP doesn't work because people are inherently socialist. They don't want to be bullied and they don't want to bully others. PvE is the natural way of things because it allows people to cooperate against common foes. We actually are biologically evolved to do that. PvP is as unnatural as our capitalist societies we live in. Everyone is miserable and it's all about transferring your misery onto others. The fact there was ever PvP in some of these MMOs at all is baffling. I can't even imagine what society was like in those days to make anyone think that was ever a good idea. If I would have been killed by someone I would have simply logged out and played something else. Every PvP MMO is pretty much dead on arrival.

>>1238853
Not everything has to fit in your retarded socialist framework. The fact that you can't fathom competition makes you just sounds like a loser. The most popular games are focused on individuals or teams working against each other. The most popular game Fortnite is all about individuals or small groups working together to secure victory and team death match type games have dominated the industry since the early 2000s.

Even PvP MMOs don't want ganking in their game because they know it makes players quit.

>>1238927
Is the goal of Fortnite to steal so much of someone's time and effort that they quit the game? Because that's the goal of sandbox PvP MMOs.

its hard as hell to develop and mmo

>>1238725
would it work to have a feudal MMO where everyone acts as a minor lord and has a shitton of AI bots doing their bidding to act as the bottom 90% of a society? the (literal) farming gets done by a player's bots and it's up to the player to go raiding others or defend their lands from other players and their armies

Risk = Fun
You don't get that in themepark MMORPGs where nothing really matters. It's just a slow grind for nothing. Risk-averse defeatists.

PvP is MMO endgame. If your MMO is PvE only its not really a game, just a watch numbers go up simulator while you play against the same pre-programmed computer that does the same moves it was programmed to do every single time without fail. Fighting other players is the only dynamic experience in a videogame.
Unfortunately because of the reasons mentioned here
>>1238383
You'll never get a popular PvP mmo again, as 2024 players are all whiney faggots who will literally kill themselves in real life if they play at 95% efficiency as opposed to 100% because they got killed by another player.

PvP MMOs aren't for everyone. If you don't like them, don't play them. They shouldn't cater to PvE players who hate PvP. Not every MMO has to be a World of Warcraft clone.

>Stevens private little world
That faggot was notorious in AA to do very shady stuff. Anyone that thinks he wont abuse his position to give himself, his guild and his streamer friends advantage is braindead faggot.

>>1239507
>. If you don't like them, don't play them.
This is the point the people in this thread are making. That nobody plays them cause most players don't want to play them. That's why 90% of them fail, why publishers avoid them like the plague, etc. Albion is the only one to have seen widespread success since EvE (so 20 years). That's because they actually designed their game well. PvE only zones (blue), varying gear drop rule zones (yellow, red, black), content that can only be done by solo or small groups, making gear acquisition easy to pad the negative feeling of dying.

Most pvp mmorpgs just give a ton of freedom to their players (mortal online, fractured online, etc). And they take advantage of that to cause the process seen in >>1238387.

Chances are if New World had followed Albion Online's example and implemented a similar structure, it would've blown up in population. NW first attempted the "too much player freedom" in the early testing stages. It backfired and cause a bunch of issues. So they reworked the entire game. But if they had gone the albion online route, I fully expect them to have seen much better success.

>>1239203
no, because the bottom rung of the totem pole of the real humans is still going to feel like the bottom rung of the totem pole
>>1239480
there are countless games with actual pvp you can play
mmo pvp isn't real pvp because it is always about who has the better gear, more consumables, or more numbers
and even your lauded "dynamic" gameplay is no more advanced than a flowchart that goes down the same few paths every single time
if you really wanted a dynamic, fair pvp experience you would be playing a moba or a fighting game or basically any other game that has 10x more depth, player expression, and skill determines the outcome 95% of the time instead of mmos where it is is 5% of the time

i actually want open PvP to be in games, but the problem is all of the degenerate psychopaths flock to them and demand the same shit that every other game has ever done and it ends up in exactly the same way
i'm tried of these retards ruining every single game by demanding that the game be designed to cater to their The Most Dangerous Game or Somolian warlord RP
PvP should be an option because there will always be unresolvable conflicts, but it should be the last option and costly and dangerous

>>1239595
What shady stuff?

Does AoC copy from Albion/Eve? (would be a good thing)

>>1239648
>mmo pvp isn't real pvp because it is always about who has the better gear, more consumables, or more numbers
So you aren't good at PvP but want to have a strong opinion, got it.

>>1239605
Albion is not even a MMORPG, it's just a mobile MMO where you do nothing but grind and gank, it's extremely limited in scope. A "sandbox" game should be an entire virtual world that caters to dozens of different playstyles.

>waifu an ashes of creation podcaster because she looks like an uglycute nice chubby shy smart hairy frumpy nerdy girl
>look her up and she's of course a degenerate cosplay whore
Fuck my life.

>>1238927
Modern society was supposed to remove competition but we got all high on the idea of perpetual growth. You're just another pawn who thinks he's a temporarily embarrassed millionaire aren't you?

>>1240299
Albion is about PvP. It doesn't need a story, quests, minigames and other singleplayer features that would only distract players. It's not a themepark MMO that's trying to have something for everyone.

>>1239751
>So you aren't good at PvP but want to have a strong opinion
Ironic coming from the guy who only enjoy PvP in MMOs.

>PvP means someone has to lose
>bad players blame the game and demand changes
>they raid the official forum/discord until the devs listen to them
>game dies
Never listen to PvE players.

>>1240883
I enjoy lots of QuakeWorld, Dota 2, and War Thunder as PvP games outside of the MMO sphere. My MMO of choice to PvP in would be OldSchool RuneScape, a game with no doubt lots of PvM/E content in addition to its PvP content. You would be foolish to say PvP is nothing but gear, you'd be implying the whole concept of anti-pking doesn't really exist.

>real PvP has never been tried!
Every fucking time.

>>1239605
You are correct but you are in the wrong board, the wrong website even. Of course "git gud lol" is all you'll get in this thread because you're talking to the very same lolpk power fantasy psychopaths you refer to in your posts.
A winning formula for PvP MMOs is to provide options to cater to all sorts of playstyles, which Albion provided. Unrestricted WPvP, especially in sandbox survival, has repeatedly failed exactly because of what you've said, but all posters here care about is their power fantasy and they'll chase it game after game after game, boom to bust to boom to bust.

>>1240498
>It's not a themepark MMO that's trying to have something for everyone.
That's not what a "themepark MMO" is dumbass.

The most fun I had in a PvP MMO was in WAR and it punished ganking faggotry while promoting PvP battles 24/7. Just the player collision made it better than 90% of PvP MMORPGs.

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>>1238145
>Why are sandbox PvP MMOs always such a failure
Because they listen to forum users, and their discord. Its a repeating cycle. The games that stand strong against them, has a strong game for years. Look at Path of Exile, while not a PVP mmo, they just recently caved on their promise to never have an auction house. The actual hardcore playerbase is furious.

>>1241701
>they just recently caved on their promise to never have an auction house
Holy shit finally, now if they would just stop nerfing builds every 2 months I might go back to the game.

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>>1241730
Buy all your gear, and on to the next fad!

aoc is never coming out

>>1240313
name

>>1241788
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91eS4iGoEHQ

>>1241763
I couldn't even name one modern MMORPG that doesn't have "official real money trading" (either directly or via tradeable cash shop items).
Every game on that list is p2w.

>>1238145
I think every possible argument for why MMOs are dying/dead has already been said from culture, to business practices to everything else.

The only thing I'd add is that any company making a new MMO in the year of our Lord 20024 - 18000 should actually "unironically" look to scale it down.
It doesn't need to be this next big thing that will have 6 gorillion players.
It doesn't need to be "best graphics in MMO eva".
It doesn't even need to be "See that mountain? You can climb it!"

And when you scale your megalomanical goals down to a more reasonable degree and are no longer chasing profits above everything else, certain other things become feasible. Things like blocking every fucking non-european (minus russia/ukraine)/non-murrican IP from accessing your fucking game. I wonder how much reduction in bots and general cancer would any such game see.

>MMOboomers in their late 30s still chasing that high they got from playing [their favourite MMO] when it was good
These guys should invent a time machine instead.

>>1241763
holy fuck you didn't play a single one of these games
wildstar is your go-to example of a hardcore pvp game
this has to be bait

>>1242157
It's absolutely bait, the faggot keeps reposting it and every single time he gets BTFO. He used to use a different image a few times too before switching to that one.
My favorite example in that list is the fag unironically thinking Tree of Savior was successful before the PVP changes and that ToS pvp was even good in the first place. The damn game relaunched several times for a reason.

Isn't PK the point of endgame in a good MMO?

>>1241945
they did, it's called vanilla wow

>>1238387
I disagree. Most fail because the games themselves are inherently shit. New World is the latest example of a game switching to PvP to PvE, only for the game to still end up being a dead piece of shit.

For MMOs people need a goal and something to work towards (or pay towards to get there faster) and sandbox MMOs don't supply that, they don't know what to do, can't think of anything to do, so they switch off.

>>1249816
These games provide tools to make your own fun. A sandbox MMO doesn't need to hold your hand all the time.
It's okay when low IQ players get filtered. There are plenty of other MMOs that can be played with your brain turned off.

>>1250947
>you can gank and then you can...
So, use your high IQ to give some examples.

>>1251962
Roleplay.

I want to like Albion and consistently play it, but whenever I do I think "why the fuck am I playing this" and end up playing OSRS or something. And you basically do need the membership to play the game, you literally get 2x the resources just for having a sub.

>>1251971
>you can... do nothing!
Whoa, just like you can roleplay in themepark MMORPGs.

Try again.

>>1253204
How can you roleplay when you can't even attack each other? You just don't have conflict?

>>1253130
With premium you have a 50% chance to get 2x resources independent of your gathering yield%. You don't go on gathering runs without premium as there are much better ways to earn silver.
In group content, you can let someone with premium open chests to get the bonus.
You can always create a new character, get three days premium for free, farm Mists and transfer the silver to your main.
Premium isn't that expensive and f2p players can afford it easily. Once you bought a month, it literally pays itself from just playing casually and spending focus every three days.

>>1253238
>How can you roleplay with the game limitations
Same way you roleplay in a sandbox, MMORPG, duh.

Try again.

>>1253246
Something tells me you've never roleplayed in an MMO, perhaps never even played an MMO besides WoW and maybe Wizard 101.

>>1253278
I was playing NWN, probably before your parents were dating, and the roleplaying aspect was pretty lackluster due the obvious limitations of video games, despite having dedicated GMs. Perhaps never even played a real tabletop RPG.

Now, try again.

>>1253280
I think it was pretty lackluster because no one wants to engage faithfully with you because you act like a nigger. I don't need to "try" anything, I have fun playing the games I like, you have so little fun playing the games you like that you come into other threads and whine at people.

>>1239480
Why would anyone care to play PvP in an MMO instead of a normal game dedicated to only PvP?
PvP in MMOs are usually either stat/gear dependent in which the actual skill of the players matters less or it's just an unbalanced mess since it's a gamemode tacked onto a different game. There's novelty in open world pvp and large scale arenas like WvW in GW2 but once they get too optimized it becomes cringe because that shit can never be balanced correctly compared to the better alternatives.

>>1253296
>no one wants to engage faithfully with you because you act like a nigger
Ironic coming from the guy throwing insults and strawmanning.

BTW, I'm still waiting for examples of anything to do in sandbox MMORPGs outside ganking.

>>1253298
MMOs without full-loot PvP aren't really PvP MMOs. Full loot PvP is a core feature of every sandbox MMO. Risk vs Reward doesn't exist in games with more forgiving PvP but this is what makes PvP fun and exciting.
PvP games like MOBAs or fighting games don't have that. It doesn't really matter when you win or lose in these games.

>>1253299

PvE content, such as questing, dungeon crawling, and monster hunting
Crafting and gathering resources to create powerful equipment and items
Building and managing your own guild or faction
Participating in player-driven economies and trading
Exploring the game world and uncovering hidden secrets and treasures
Forming alliances and making enemies with other players and factions
Participating in large-scale battles and siege warfare for control of territories
Roleplaying and immersing yourself in the game's lore and storylines.

>>1253370
So you just want a MMO that has PvP where you drop all items on death?
Why not play extract shooter or play in a Minecraft server that has that instead?

>>1253380
You can do all of that in themepark MMOs, high IQ guy.

>>1253393
I'm not into first person shooters. I do play Foxhole and Vrising but those games aren't really MMORPGs.
What do you have against full loot PvP in MMORPGs? (like Eve or Albion)

>>1253412
That's a chatgpt reply.

>>1253416
>no real reply
Go figure.

>>1253415
>I'm not into first person shooters.
Dark and Darker

>What do you have against full loot PvP in MMORPGs?
They're just redundant and would likely just be a better as a standalone game and not forced to be an MMO.

>>1253433
I'm not into games that are played from a first-person perspective in general.
>They're just redundant and would likely just be a better as a standalone game and not forced to be an MMO.
PvP again is pointless when winning and losing means nothing. I don't care about system-generated participation trophies. I don't care if someone has to walk back to their corpse but someone has to lose something so someone else can win.
I'm not talking about ganking. That's a Quit Moment in any game but unfortunately that's the only kind of PvP experience you get in themepark MMOs like WoW.
In Albion maybe less than 1% of PvP is ganking (overpowering players who can't defend themselves).

>>1253544
Nobody likes to lose their progress to a gang of niggers, that's why civilization was invented.

>>1253736
>Nobody likes to lose their progress to a gang of niggers, that's why civilization was invented.
Ganking isn't PvP and nobody likes it. It's borderline griefing. PvP should be fair.
There's nothing else to spend your ingame resources on in a sandbox MMO. If you don't spend it on PvP, you are endlessly increasing your wallet for nothing. Maybe your sandbox MMO even has wipes then there's even less reason to hoard and worrying about losing progress.
These games don't have an endgame like themepark MMOs do. They don't need to release new content to keep players busy because the endgame is about player-driven conflict.

>>1253753
>nothing to do but PvP
>if you lose you need to do chores to do PvP again
>assuming you don't get ganked first
Give me a good reason to play that shit instead of a real PvP game.

>>1253761
Think of it like playing Poker with or without money. What is more fun to you?
>if you lose you need to do chores to do PvP again
You should never risk more than you are willing to lose. In these games you don't lose your ingame wallet, just what items you carry with you. If you lose a fight, you can easily replace your lost set (either crafting it or buying from others). The PvE can be done with cheap equipment if you don't care about PvP.
>assuming you don't get ganked first
When you make 1-2m per hour doing PvE, losing a 50k set from time to time barely matters. You open loot chests, hit a jackpot, recall and bank it. You don't walk around with full pockets.

>>1253789
>Think of it like playing Poker with or without money. What is more fun to you?
False equivalence. You're talking about losing a hand of poker, then you go to the ATM machine, notice that you don't have money and then you have to work for a month before playing another hand.

>inB4 >automated teller machine machine

I only ever liked pvp in mmos because of medium and large scale pvp in the fantasy genre. You just can't get it anywhere else, I don't give a shit about full loot or high stakes, there are survival pvp games for that. The only MMO that's ever actually successfully pulled off mass pvp without dying is EVE and it's not even fantasy, so the genre is very lacking. The other games tried to rely on nigger gankfest shit too much which isn't fun at all and lacks the impressive scale of a fight, it's just surprise attacking people who have smaller stat sticks which is fucking lame.

>>1238145
The MMO PVP community is utterly unhinged and isn't satisfied until they've ran anyone else off the server and made everyone else's lives as miserable as possible in the most shitty ways possible.

There's no balance with these people, no moderation or middle ground. They can't just kill a guy, be satisfied for winning, take a bit of loot and leave.
They have to kill a guy, camp his body for 2 hours, loot everything he has, follow him back to his spawn, raze his shitshack and take the scraps he's been grinding.

It turns out people don't really like that, and unless you're part of some massive clan of these people who all group up and steam roll any small groups or individuals, you can't do anything about it, and as it turns out people don't like that either.
And then of course, these clans run into other clans, and then it becomes an arms race of whoever can abuse, exploit and do as much shitty stuff as possible in order to win. Offline raiding, bug abusing, using alts and a bunch of other metagame bullshit, all to win in a fucking video game.
Look at shit like Haven and Hearth or Mortal Online and it's absolutely full of people who do this shit and complain that there's no new people joining the game because the developers made some minor balance change, or fixed some obvious exploit.

>>1241701
PVP in Wakfu was fucking awful though.
It was literally just max levels camping basic resource nodes in order to kill new players trying to make level 20 sets and shit.

Combine this with it being a turn-based game, and they quickly figured out that the optimal way to gank new players was to drag them into turn based combat and proceed to AFK, leaving the other player unable to do significant damage to them, and each turn take as long as possible.

So, yeah no shit they removed the ability for PVPfaggots to drag level 15s into a 1hr long battle with half of that time being waiting for the grief's move to time out.

>>1254125
Agree but EVE kinda sucks due the time dilation mechanic, what a travesty (heh) of mechanic.

I think I only had fun playing WAR, it was based on battlegrounds (shit mechanic for a MMO) but the zergfest and sieges in the PvP zones were pretty fun and usually packed with people. And just player collision puts WAR ahead of most PvP MMOs.

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>>1238383
>this is why -all- mmos are garbage post 2000.
Make that 2003 or whatever is needed to draw the line between FFXI and WoW.

>>1254300
TiDi is much better than the alternative (servers completely shitting themselves). Also, if you often find yourself in a TiDied system, there's a high chance you are a retarded, useless dullsec carebear and need to KYS IRL (in game).

>>1238145
Ashes of creation is being funded by a billionaire, he doesn't give a fuck if it's popular or not. He just wants to make a pvp game.

>>1254300
We need a game like Foxhole but not shitty, less friendly to griefers but not in a world war setting. Haven't played foxhole in years since the jade cove thing but participating in a huge offensive attack is something few games have been able to do.

>>1254815
Anvil Empires. Medieval version of Foxhole by the same devs.

>>1254985
>by the same devs.
So
>not shitty, less friendly to griefers
falls into the water.

>>1238469
Archeage died because of p2w not pvp

>>1256142
??? Foxhole is great.

>>1260963
What's the difference between being roflstomped by a P2Wer, a RNG lottery winner, GM's e-gf, a RMTer, or a 24/7 grinder?

>>1261116
Your bias against p2w has blinded you
It isnt about the differences between any of those

if you played before launch you'd know that it was possible to grind arch dust. And when launch hit they packed it all away into coin purses gated by labor; then sold you that dust through the gacha.
That didnt kill the game perse, but its indicative of everything else that occurred; the cash item that was probably the worst was rumbling tree which removed the benefit of illegal tree farms and thus emergent content from the game.

In PvP games, theres generally things a PvEr can do, even raiding; or in AA youd be able to run tradepacks through zones during peacetime such as the hellswamp part.

But having all your efforts cheated by someone spending 1k feels dumb as shit

>>1261145
So you don't have an answer?

retard

>>1241763
>mentioning the absolute shitshow that is planetside 2 as example of success
You are a flaming fucking faggot who didn't play either planetside, and probably half of the other games on your gay ass list.
t. 1000+ hours in original planetside

>>1238145
>Vek
>christian navigators
>appearance of trolls
>funded by a billionaire
Let me guess, you guys can't disillusion yourselves through this one either.

>>1241810
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR679kXeAVE

Another waifu stream.

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PVP will always be the ultimate end game of any MMO.

Gear is both a reward and a tool, and no one gives a fuck about the ultimate uber god dragon slayer sword that you get from killing the final boss of the final raid that takes 2000 hours to get to when the only thing you can do is kill that same boss 10 seconds faster.

PVP is where metagaming thrives, where you can test your collections of gear, items, and your builds to see how it stacks up against others. In a good PVP game this would be dynamic AF. The problem is all the honor duel faggots who claim to have skill won't move onto MOBAs and bitch non-stop about the game not being 'balanced' when in reality they want to sit and kick puppies via a queue system without the threat of newbros calling for backup from their friends and guild.

The only decent PVP sandbox game right now is EVE Online, and the surface level gameplay is absolute dogshit that was outdated even in 2003, but it maintains the soul of why people like to grind and fight in MMOs in the first place.

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How we feeling

>>1266562
Archeage was just shit in general held back by typical dogshit korean design.

coomers aren't a sustainable playerbase, litterally get cumbrain and move onto to the next coomerbiat koreashit game.

People who bemoan the loss of society in gaming and then blame it on the games fundamentally do not understand the issue. It isn't the game's fault. The problem is that people are simply worse now. There's been a general spiritual and social decay that make 99% of people horrible creatures not worth talking to, and it has a chilling effect on all social spaces.

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MMOs usually have massive customization which means so many variables that make it impossible to balance.

Almost all MMOs are based on investing large amounts of time to power up your avatar/character (be it levels or gear).

This means that your time investment is more important than your actual skill so pvp is always
has been and will be a joke.

>>1267701
>balance
There's that word again, MMOs are NOT meant to be a hyper balanced esport, and even esports suffer when they're hyper balanced instead of dynamic and interesting.

"balanced" games are solved games, and an MMO wants you to grind for hundreds or even thousands of hours, and the only way to makeg grinding interesting is being able to try and new new things in the dynamic sandbox that MMOs provide when they do MMO PVP.

If you want hyperbalanced 'skillbased' instanced dogshit, MOBAs already exist. MMOs aren't about 1v1 or 5v5 hyperbalance, its about community vs community, guild vs guild, faction vs faction, and the social conflict and conquest. MMOs lost that when they tried to be hyperbalanced like WOW nutering itself with instanced dogshit.

MMOs cannot compete with MOBAs, and they shouldn't.

it is hilarious how defenders of MMO PvP aka being a level 60 rogue killing newbies in Redridge have this delusional fantasy that they are engaging in the deepest, most complicated, and the only true way to play a game
it isn't enough to just say that they personally enjoy it, no
the are engaged in the most sophisticated, patrician form--that of shoving people smaller than you into lockers

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>>1267957
>I have no friends the post
Why do anti-PVPers always post like they're the loneliest entitled nerds who wants an MMO to be a single player gacha grindfest.

WOW already exists, stay in your containment game.

>>1267957
>enters thread about sandbox PvP MMOs
>posts WoW, a themepark PvE MMO
lmao

>>1267982
Ah yes, because megazerg guilds/corps/whatever in Eve and other PvP sandbox MMOs are always a tight-knit group of friends.

Has anyone ever thought of making a sandbox PvP MMO with a relatively low grind-free power ceiling, so that most people are either on an even playing field or the underdogs can quickly catch up with the bullies? Every time I gaze upon these sandbox MMOs it's always "you can't even scratch me unless you grinded for 50000 hours in the area that we control and don't let anyone access in order to craft Belial's Anal Beads Of Doom and Sissyphus's Backscratcher" shit.

>>1268823
Why would anyone play them then?

>>1268837
To have fun playing videogames? Fight people and shit? Do you sandbox PvP drones really only care about bullying others?

>>1268823
What you are describing is PvP in a themepark MMO. That kind of vertical progression that makes you immortal to players below you doesn't exist in sandbox MMOs. Your character doesn't even have a level and there's often very little character-bound power/progression.
Your power comes from what you are wearing and you are always at risk of losing it.

>>1268871
Why not just play a non-MMO then? In MMOs gear matters and guilds matter and skill matters. You just want to play Tarkov or some shit.

>>1268871
nofriends detected

>>1268971
>HnH is a themepark mmo
retard

>>1268976
Hopelessly fagtastic reply. No wonder the genre sucks ass with cunts like you.

>>1269008
Where did I say that?

>>1269092
you said sandbox mmos don't have levels and all of their power is borrowed
nearly all of a titan's power in HnH comes from stats and skills that aren't from gear, probably 80/20 or 90/10
so either HnH isn't a sandbox MMO or your claim that the power in sandbox MMOs never comes from grinding a character up is wrong
it is fucking amazing that I have to explain this
are you legitimately retarded?

>>1269330
Haven and Hearth? I can't figure out what game you are talking about.

>>1269339
Heritage not Hate

>r-real PvP MMO has never been tried!
Every time.

Ironically it fails for the very same reason that communism.

>>1266562
>tfw Kakao partner for Archeage
>10k hours post-2020
>top tier guild, actively able to kill anything that moves
>can defend bosses from significantly higher numbers of enemies
>arguably the best bard left on the server
>several decorated RP houses
And it will all perish into nothing in two months. All my costumes, my furniture, my houses. Everything I've worked for, gone. 3,000€ spent over 3 years; and for what?

I'm not okay.

>>1271467
Communism fails due to the inevitability that power corrupts and the state always hungers for more power. PvP MMOs fail because devs listen to PvE carebears who don't play beyond the starting area and sabotage their games.

>>1272567
lol retard

>>1272567
Smartest MMO PvP enjoyer.

>>1238387
>its simple, the only people they attract are people that don't want actual pvp,

I usually don't go for PVP but I like to play in a PVP world because it adds an interesting social dynamic and level of risk.

>>1266562
god it's about fucking time
that game started circling the drain years ago

>>1272567
>PvP MMOs fail because devs listen to PvE carebears
Name one

So many replies yet no recommendation for good mmos with pking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oSBNQ8VjTo

New update is here!

>>1271674
>3,000€ spent
LMAO

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2134041784 fuck she is so hot holy gott please let me have a chance with her

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euPLiJ0eHx8
Why is AoC being shilled by a raging 40 year old crater face nerd with zoomer hair lmfao? This dude is wild. So ass pained because some guy said he doesn't think a game with "kill 20 goblins" quests will be a WoW killer, that he went on an incel rant for half an hour about it.

>>1238387
True, just look at the occasional thread on /v/ seething about that coop Elder Ring mod. Those people just want to shit on others, not have a normal pvp fight.

>>1275313
where the fuck did you get this video from, and why? Random retards wanting to be influencers by copying the personality, reactions, and attitudes of what they consoom are the bane of moderns society.

>>1275565
Just watching AoC updates, they have an insane set of 100 view "influencers" it's hilarious.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/59381/the-desert-biome-is-real-right

Last showcase confirmed for being fake.

AI will "fix" the MMO genre, unironically. Other players are always the biggest obstacle in enjoying them. If you log in as a new player, the first thing you see is some retarded kid spamming cryptic nonsense or screeching autists discussing the latest politics and goyslop shows. If they don't glitch and cheat their way through PvP matches, they'll gank and spawn kill you. If they're idle in town, they look like the biggest imersion-breaking rainbow-sparkling faggots possible, stacking and glitching into each other, and eating your frames while blinding you. If they happen to participate in your story quest, they'll make sure to skip everything and dance in the background while you stand like a clown trying to read the quest. Forget about obtaining property, that house over there belongs to the richest Twitch streamer and he'll make sure to keep it. Did you accidentally acquire an enemy in a PvE game? Good luck trying to do anything as they continue to follow you on their main and wipe out the entire area of mobs right front of you.

MMO players shilling the next big thing are like communists. "Surely it will work this time!"

>>1239648
>but it should be the last option and costly and dangerous
Actually I think this is where the mistake is,
What if it wasn't costly or dangerous.
Heck what if it was actually beneficial to get killed by another player.

>>1276289
Then the PvPers wouldn't play since they're only having fun when they kill people and make them lose real life time/resources and make them sad/mad.

>>1275565
>>1275313
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbBTUs_bVwk
Dude literally has a grey beard and lives in an anime dungeon like he's 15 holy shit.

>>1275313
ISI money laundering

>>1238145
Why would you want to spend 1000 hours grinding when you can just play Fortnite to pvp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzbrG-TaM-0
new waifu video

>>1281261
i'm so fucking in love

>>1271674

> Trusted gooks from korea not to just rugpull you after you spent thousands in their video game just so they release something else right after in an attempt to make you rinse and repeat the process

Archeage going offline is a bad day i feel you, but given the horrendous stats it had for years im actually surprised they didn't pull the plug sooner.

Game was close to perfection and had so much potential back in 2014 then they decided to go full korean retards on it.

Koreans are a double edged sword, they can make A tier games that can explode in popularity within a month and have them die a brutal death, all in the same year lol.

Those fuckers are ruthless rugpullers when it comes to gachapon gaming.

>>1282268
Didn't Archeage die and resurrect multiple times already? Just like Bless? Seems like a good business strategy to just milk the same idiots with the same game, each time promising it'll be good.

>>1282464

Base game died after devs were unable to update anything in the game due to korean devs holding the rights to the code.

Then base game moved to kakao games with even more pay to win shit added to it.

Archeage Unchained came which claimed no pay to win and split the remaining community into total irrelevance and the game has been having shit numbers ever since. Even on Unchained you have days with approx 10-20 people on the server.

>>1238145
In my experience PvP in MMOs is always 100% gear dependent rather than skill, as an adult with a girlfriend, full time job, and an actual life everytime I've tried to PvP in an MMO I just get wrecked, not even because of skill but because I can't possible catch up to the grind

Can't even git gud in PvP MMOs. If I want to PvP i might as well play something like Team Fortress or Overwatch where it's somewhat of an even playing field

>>1282800
Just buy a geared toon lmfao?

Does it have full loot PvP? If not then it's a PvE MMO. Simple as.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygDXte1AX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygDXte1AX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygDXte1AX8
NEW AMA IS UP!!!

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Ashes looks like a huge fucking joke to me.
I don't think it's a scam but jesus christ there are clearly red flags here about the game's development, and whether it will actually be a "good" MMO.
This video https://youtu.be/eOdU6gJ07rQ?si=w2VFSXNZLiMyQlKL
7 years ago
Mentions it "has a caravan system".
3-6 months ago? The caravan system is ACTUALLY done. Promises? The actual content? Huge time disconnect.
But to me the thing that stands out most is how "shallow" the game looks. What's the actual combat, enemies, bosses, dungeons look like? Everything I've seen of this looks incredibly lame, basic and following in the footsteps of every past MMORPG.
For god's sake they went all in on the MMORPG trinity with generic fantasy classes as basically DPS, then "Tank", then Cleric for Healer. They might as well call all DPS classes "Damager".

>>1288824
Sounds like you're a scurred widdle PvEbabby.

>developer used console commands to trigger an event in a Livestream
How shit can you get

>>1288824
>MMORPG trinity with generic fantasy classes as basically DPS, then "Tank", then Cleric for Healer
Why would you want to avoid trinity class design? It's just a classic strong party composition, and when you have to potentially contend with other players in open world PVP it's nice to know your predefined roles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm6NOnO0Dqg
new waifu in skimpy dress :)

>>1288872
sounds like you're a subhuman who will cry "dead game" after having no one left to bully.

>>1282800
pvp in mmos is a meme and only works on paper. as the novelty of open world hardcore pvp wore off, people grew tired of wasting their time and effort to circumstances beyond their control. having an overgeared/overleveled opponent gank you makes you sooner abandon the game than "encourage" you to compete. real pvp players don't play mmos, it's only for people who want to dominate others by wasting more time/money than their opponent who's preferably as weak as possible.

>>1288824
all "open world pvp" mmos are a scam simply because this shit never works. none of them stood the test of time and always either alienated the overwhelming majority of pve players due to the baked-in toxicity or the pvp crowd by continuously discouraging/abandoning the pvp part in favor of the pve crowd.

>>1290196
because they're not being innovative anywhere. this game has been shilled for a decade now by absolute morons and has fuck all to show. you ahve to be fucking clown to fall for a game spearheaded by a scammer.

>>1292180
Ok and? You mean superhuman?

>>1292194
learn2read monkey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-1S5g1IMmE
horny waifu reveals freshly waxed forearms, huge disappointment

>>1288824

The guy behind it is some rich trust fund baby who spent six figures on his archeage guild doing market manipulation and flying out guild mates to events. The guy was known to be an arrogant control freak and absolute weirdo.

How do you expect this type of guy to lead an MMO's development to success ? The game won't come out and if it does he'll tank it quickly.

He just wants this to be his ''life project'' so people can stop calling him a loser living off his parent's savings. As long as he keeps dragging it on he'll have a purpose, so i don't think he sees any interest in meeting deadlines and actually delivering what people want.

>>1293973
Pretty much my theory too but I think he's already bored of it by now, you can see he's just drugged out and completely uninterested in livestreams and people around him are too afraid to do anything just like in the guild.

>>1292189
It doesn't have to be innovative, it just has to be a functional and coherent game, like fuck is that really too much to ask for in an MMO? We don't even need new wacky cuhhrazy shit no one's ever heard of before, we just need someone to deliver a fucking reasonably quality game that doesn't irreparably crash and burn it's own reputation right out the gate and knows what it wants to be. New World is an example of that, idk who the fuck still plays that game but it has worse numbers than korean slop. These devs can't even create a minimum viable product anymore. Unsurprisingly ashes doesn't look like it's going to be good either since they've been struggling with basic concepts for like a decade. Fuck man, is there anything else on the horizon? Camelot is never happening, neither is Pantheon. Anything at all? Hello MMO devs, what are you doinggggggg

>>1292403
I hate girls who wax their arms. Hairy forearms are the best.

>>1292188
The novelty of open world PVP wore off because it stopped being made by competent devs and PVE speedrunning autists, aka WOWfags, who want everything to be a private instance started taking over.

MMOs are inherently an open world social game, why they fail is because everyone, devs and autistic WOWfags alike, treats them like gachas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrz-AylYHIo
waifu in beautiful short short sleeves that show her chubby upper arms

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idk a large string of bad pvp focused mmorpgs instantly turn me off any mmo coming out and claiming to be a pvp mmo. Mortal 1 and 2 are just so fucking shit. age of reckoning was really fun though not having a third alliance really hurt it as it just turned into one sided fights. All the games with pvp as a side thing either have terrible balance or just roaming zerg packs. pic unrelated.

>>1309580
>not having a third alliance really hurt it as it just turned into one sided fights.
Doesn't matter, it's the nature of PvP games to end up one-sided no matter if it's 2 factions, 3 factions, player factions/guilds, or whatever else.

>>1309665
yeah, I guess I've seen that, but it does help a little. I guess when it boils down to it pvp is just a bad premise to build a game around in an open environment without strict rules (matchmaking, auto balancing teams, gear balancing, match resets).

WoW isn't a PvP MMO. Nobody cares about a WoW player's opinion on PvP.
>but it's the most successful MMO ever
Yes, but definitely not because it had good PvP

>>1253278
woah there wizard 101 isn't that bad.

>>1238145
>actually caring about this nothingburger of a ""game""
Basically >>1238387.

People just want to fulfil their god complex. You can win simply by no-lifing and sinking more hours into a game to outlevel/outgear everyone.

Ashes of Creation Alpha Two Node Wars Preview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygDXte1AX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygDXte1AX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygDXte1AX8
Ashes of Creation Alpha Two Node Wars Preview

Lol they deleted a reddit thread exposing how they're already playing favorites with big guilds that have GMs in them.

>>1309665
Disagree. It should be possible to build a system with a cycle of power and self-destruction. Could be depletion of resources, defensive features with permanent usage limits, or unique limited power advantages for new rising factions.
Ideally you would be able to ride on the wave of advantageous position for a limited amount of time (where you try to reap as much benefits as you can) until the advantages dry up, the faction becomes vulnerable and another faction can come and wipe it out. The node system in Ashes could support a system like this, though from the current design I don't know if this is going to happen.

>>1313614
Yeah but you don't get it. The same group of players just take the same positions in the new cycle. The game mechanics don't really matter, you think people roleplay their in-game characters? No, they play their Discord personas.

>>1253433
DnD is just a (clunkier) FPS.
>They're just redundant
No. Full loot PVP gives meaning to both PVE (risk, item/credit sinks) and PVP ("meaningful" loss as gear needs to be earned somehow). Open world sandbox setting (eg Eve) generates the best quality PVP because there's the feeling of hunting and being hunted and imperfect intel leading to asymmetric engagements where there's a constant chance of fights getting third partied and generally escalating into total clusterfucks.

>>1316288
>Open world sandbox setting (eg Eve) generates the best quality PVP
There's two versions of this "best quality PvP":
1) either RMT is allowed so it's P2W so you're just putting your bank account against someone else's bank account
2) RMT is disallowed so the P2W is on illegal sites so occasionally you have to rebuy your banned account, otherwise same as 1)

I think MMOs shouldn't have female humans. Furry females ONLY.

>>1238145
because they’re all dogshit and theres like two games that stand the test of time both of which are of dubious quality in 2024
my prediction on how this game ends up is just that it becomes another p2w slop that its turd eaters will defend

>>1317637
Keep in mind these are full loot PvP games. You would lose your investement when you die. There is always a bigger fish in the water. No refunds. Swiping in full loot PvP games is probably the dumbest thing you can do.

I couldn't even name one relevant MMORPG these days where you can't buy the ingame currency in the cash-shop (either directly or via tradeable items). It's not that big of a deal in full loot games.

>>1320310
>le P2W is le good
Fuck off.

>>1320380
You are the unicorn for bringing expensive stuff into full loot PvP fights. Even the weakest player could do serious damage to you in something like Eve or Albion.
Go ahead and buy the best everything if you think you can p2w in these games. You will only make someone else richer.

>>1317637
>EVE
>P2W
Tell me what you can buy in EVE to win? AT ship? Please DO IT. Do it now. Undock AT ship.

>>1238145
The first ever MMO to blow up tried the unlimited pvp thing and limited that shit fast. It makes the experience unplayable for everyone except the shittiest part of the community there is. It becomes a haven for the insufferable, and thus it cannibalizes itself. If the game is just preying on the weak, you run out of the weak, with nothing to prey on, the strong also die or eat each other, nothing is left and nothing is gained.
There have been tests done on animals to suggest that when playing, even though the stronger animal could win most if not all the time, for play to continue it needs to let the weaker animal win roughly 30% of the time, otherwise they simply refuse to participate anymore.
To create a stable game environment you don't need balance per se, but you can't have extremes.

>>1320676
>There have been tests done on animals to suggest that when playing, even though the stronger animal could win most if not all the time, for play to continue it needs to let the weaker animal win roughly 30% of the time, otherwise they simply refuse to participate anymore.
Interesting. I wonder if 'not losing' counts as winning?

>>1320652
>>1320513
Tards.

>>1253393
>play in a Minecraft server that has that
true, minecraft can actually fill that niche

>>1266562
ArcheAge is the only MMORPG to get movement right btw

>>1320676
>The first ever MMO to blow up tried the unlimited pvp thing and limited that shit fast.
Which MMO are you referring to, Ultima Online? If so, what things did they have to change due to player behavior?
>To create a stable game environment you don't need balance per se, but you can't have extremes.
I always thought this was the weird thing about sandbox mmo's is that they are essentially a chaotic evils paradise. Steal, murder and grief? No problem, the statue of limitations is only a few minutes in whatever shit hole setting your games in. While lawful players are usually extremely limited in where they can go and how they can tackle criminal players, usually just killing them in return. Really wish modern sandbox mmo's allowed for judicial systems in them, prisons and other similar things to balance out how much evil characters can get away with usually.

>PvP is le evil
These games give you a reason to fight other players. You are also given tools to avoid PvP. Players will fight each just because the PvP is fun.
It's just WoW players who believe PvP is about ganking, getting ganked and psychopaths griefing new players.

>>1321130
>Which MMO are you referring to, Ultima Online? If so, what things did they have to change due to player behavior?
They duplicated the map and made a mirror world with PvP disabled. Surprise surprise 99% of people just moved there immediately and the 1% of retarded mentally ill losers still whine about it "ruining the game" to this day.

>>1321366
>It's just WoW players who believe PvP is about ganking, getting ganked and psychopaths griefing new players.
Yeah or anyone who ever played a sandbox PvP game idiot.
>>1321130
>Really wish modern sandbox mmo's allowed for judicial systems in them, prisons and other similar things to balance out how much evil characters can get away with usually.
Doesn't work they whine until they nerf it into nothing like in Archeage and alts exist.

>>1320513
>>1320652
>MMO pvp isn't controlled by the whale mafia
You retards are clueless cattle even in video games. There's no hope for you fags IRL.

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>>1321367
medieval bandits when all of the productive members of society move to a country where thieving and murdering are illegal
and complaining 100 years later saying that was the point when society was ruined

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>>1310325
it looks pretty poor. This seems to be wow tier pvp.

>>1321369
Why are you even in this thread if you don't like PvP MMOs?

>>1320832
Depends on what not losing would entail, if it's any limitation that allows them to succeed then yes, the more margin you give the prey players the more of them you'll see sticking around. As for lessening the consequences of losing (just lose a level or time instead of all your stuff) it's still the same issue, it just might not turn people away as quickly.

The issue with these games is they want to make a game for a niche that requires the non-niche playerbase to keep the experience they want going, but there's no clear way to appease both sides. Then consider you can have MMO's that are geared for the non-niche and they can actually survive long term without the niche present at all, and you don't even have financial incentive. Sea of thieves doesn't fully fit the MMO description but it's dealing with a mirror issue, unlimited PvP as a concept just feeds griefers. What else do you see but a whole chunk of the playerbase yelling for PvE servers or at least limitations to the PvP. Why ever do PvE if some guy can just wait in port to blow you up for free shit, or just because it wastes your time.

They are not WoW clones that make you lose years of progress if you die.
In these games you can die a million times and you would still end up richer than before.

>>1321369
>Doesn't work they whine until they nerf it into nothing like in Archeage and alts exist.
Why'd the system fail in Archeage? Only game I've played with a prison system was Wakfu and it was terrible there due to how easy it was to literally commit crime in that game. Kill a few too many mobs? Governor bans poaching, now some level 200+ can 1 shot you and send you to jail. Pick too many flowers? Same thing, you're a criminal now, enjoy prison. Mind you the region and factions in that game are largely pointless as you'll constantly be bouncing between them to do the daily dungeons or level in an appropriate zone. It's not like an orc intruding into Elwynn and getting thrown into jail for stealing peaceblooms from alliance noobs.

What if criminals get the rope so their character gets killed and all their items and progress lost? That would be a cool high stakes PvP/PvE hybrid, right? Oh wait, the PvP griefers don't want actual risk for themselves.

>>1322720
>Why'd the system fail in Archeage?
Because people most interested in PKing weren't lone criminals, they were entire guilds, and it wasn't criminal guilds, it was actual endgame PvP guilds, who could afford any loss much less the paltry loss of a little bit of labor or time that the game mechanics took from them. The entire game was based on normal pleb farmers vs insane sweatlords who would PK you for looking at them wrong, and the latter congregated together into huge guilds and later player nations, where they couldn't be opposed.

Punishment systems only really work when there's very few people to punish in the first place.

>>1322742
>let's criminalize PvP in a PvP game
How about you quit being a pussy?

>>1322991
Don't be a nigger? That's why nobody plays your niggertopia games.

>>1323172
Nobody enjoys non-consensual PvP. Even PvP players find it boring. This is something exclusive to themepark MMOs that for some reason have unrestricted open world PvP.
In actual PvP MMOs (Eve and Albion) it's very easy to avoid player that you don't want to fight.

>enjoy asymmetric PVP in Eve for many years
>want other games to scratch the same itch
>seething carebears relentlessly try to prevent MMOs from doing hardcore sandbox PVP because they're fundamentally incapable of understanding it's not aimed at them
Can you all just shut the fuck up if you don't actually want to play the game that's advertised? You're like vegans going out of your way to visit a steakhouse and then throwing a tantrum. Not only that, because you're vegans you don't have a clue what good or bad steak looks like.

>>1323245
>In actual PvP MMOs (Eve and Albion) it's very easy to avoid player that you don't want to fight.
Yeah like when you undock in 1.0 system and get ganked by a dude using 40 multibox alts right in front of the station.

>>1323290
>"You're like vegans" said the weirdo who likes something that nobody likes (except other mentally ill weirdos)
welp

>>1323388
Use an instant undock you mong. Stop overloading your cargo with value like an entitled whale. Fit the proper align time, cloak and MWD. You're the braindead humanoid biomass that's too stupid to have relevant opinions because you can't even survive in the kiddy playpen.

>>1323415
On it chief thx 4 advice.

>>1323404
>games should never cater to a niche, all games should cater to me!
Do you work for Kotaku? How hard is it to understand that people have different opinions, skills and desires to your own?

>>1323423
I know that you're autistic and retarded but this thread is about "Why are sandbox PvP MMOs always such a failure", why do you keep bringing your "superior" vegan take about food? That was rhetorical and yet you're problably going to reply but the real answer its "projection and cope".

>>1323429
I don't know what to tell you. I've been playing sandbox PVP MMOs for years with thousands of other nerds for years and there's appetite for more than 2 games. Most games fail in all genres, and yet whenever a load of trashy FPS / cardgame / turn-based-strategy / roguelite slop games fail you don't deny the existence of the very genre and the games within it.
Do you think that everyone involved (and all the time and $ invested) in those record-breaking EVE fights that made headlines were paid crisis actors?

>>1323437
Nobody denies that the niche exist, the point of the thread is why they keep failing and that isn't related to these evil carebears that live rent free in your head. So, you're the niche audience here (see: the vegan). Now keep asking for a new vegan restaurant, I'm positive this time it will be successful, lol

There are bots so unless you join a zerg you will pretty much get scouted. Unless this is patched, whenever you zone into a zone it pings a discord channel.

>>1323453
Albion was successful because it iterated directly on EVE's ideas, which in turn iterated on the ancient MMO days. New World is the flagship example of not even bothering to copy the homework of the successful previous examples and aborting the PVP approach entirely and ending up at half the steam playercount as Albion. Amazon could have literally shamelessly copied Albion without improving the formula, and won just by having more money to invest

Companies making sandbox PVP MMOs are trying to reinvent the wheel rather than just doing what successful wheel-users are already doing and improving it a bit.

>>1323290
the relevant restaurant comparison would be a vegan place that sells vegan food to lure in vegans to be eaten
no one complains about there being PvP in mortal online or wurm or "we eat vegans here"

>>1238145
>muh sandbox PVP MMOs
it's a dead genre, >>1238387 basically hit the nail on the head
if you want to play something that has plenty of players, extended play/resource gathering, and progression, just play something like Rust - it's as best a sandbox can be while not falling for the pitfalls that plague your usual "grand PVP MMOs"
>but that's not an MMO
no shit, but it scratches a similar itch; servers are large enough to have massive fights if you want them, and resets occur often enough to where people don't just indefinitely stay at the top of a solved game and farmers leave due to an inability to survive
you will never be at the top of these games - the people that shit in socks and piss in bottles and ignore sleep for months on end will claw to the top and stay there for years. this just doesn't happen in rust or similar games

Can any WoWfags explain the appeal of WPVP in that game (in any version) when the stakes are so minimally low? All you get are honor points for kills and all you lose is...gear durability? Full loot, for me, is a hard requirement for open world PvP to work.

>>1323897
I don't like Rustlikes because I like to build bases and shit and they never stay long enough. So I'd only play it in local/PvE and that's dumb.

>>1324009
The combat is fun, and loot takes longer to obtain then levels. Losing your gear makes you useless--like you'd have be fully carried for tens of hours or make a new character to recover.

>>1324109
>Losing your gear makes you useless--like you'd have be fully carried for tens of hours or make a new character to recover.
I get that part. That's why I think the game is more suited towards the BGs and stuff. I think open world pvp works better in games like runescape or albion where you sort of just buy gear and you're expected to lose it frequently (ish)

>>1324109
>Losing your gear makes you useless--like you'd have be fully carried for tens of hours or make a new character to recover.
Which is the actual point otherwise you just respawn and the biggest zerg always wins? You have to have the ability to "take someone out" and actually win, in real life you'd just kill them, here you have to make them incapable of playing for a longer time for it to be relevant.

This is why people in PvP games "kill" others by running them off the server, your opponent quitting the game is the ultimate goal.

>>1323290
see the vegan analogy would work, except for one issue, the vegans are the cows. The game devs running into the issue that just selling steak is a terrible business idea, since they also need to lure in the cows and the cows really don't see a reason to participate. They're saying, if you want me to come over to get slaughtered, what's in it for me? When the answer is " if you jump through 300 hoops and become a carnivore maybe you won't die", you may see how this doesn't sound as appealing, especially when they have alternatives that rarely or never result in them being slaughtered at all.

>>1324121
>die
>have to do chores before you can play the fun part again
Why wouldn't you just play a PvP game instead?

>>1323484
There are many ways to play around it.

>>1324129
>the goal of the game is to kill the server population
damn I wonder why these games keep dying

WoW is not a sandbox PvP MMO. It's pretty much the opposite of that.

>>1324140
Hence the global success and become a multi-generation cultural phenomenon.

>>1324139
Well that's the issue, you can't win against people as long as they're still playing, so you have to either demoralize them enough to stop appearing at any endgame content and never contest anything, which is when your guild just gets to play a pve game with very shitty bosses, or make them all quit. The "disable them until they get their gear back" is fine in smaller fights but it's not really a good design solution for the long run, since it just snowballs into one side always winning after a few fights.

>>1241763
Holy shit, this has to be bait. You think New World died because of PvP of all things? Not that every fucking system was shit or buggy, dupes/exploits/bots rampant, and whole servers were timetraveling which was destroying everything?
Also Tera:
>thinking $20 cash shop mounts sparked outrage when there were already $60 maid outfits early on. Devs even admitted that the only reason Tera was even alive was because of Elin coomers.
You haven't played these games.

>>1324121
I mean wildy PvP in runescape is dead; IDK about albion. But basically what >>1324129 said is and always will be the problem. The 'people' who want world PvP want to make the other player quit. If loot is involved it always becomes one person who wants to fight and one who doesn't. The latter will do avoid the activity, sometimes going so far as to quit the game. The former will then ceaselessly complain and move on to the next game.
World PvP actually does have some activity in current WoW just because it's fun sometimes and if you aren't having fun you can just opt out whenever. But even games with significantly less grinding than a proper MMO like Ark have massive playerbase problems, with a huge number of the players seeking custom servers with PvP limitations. And it's the same reason a game with comparatively minimal grinding like Rust is extremely successful.
Asymmetric and unstructured PvP isn't always bad, but the risk has to be minimal for it to happen for any significant period of time. The reward doesn't even matter really, since humans are so much more receptive to pain than possible gain, one bad death can get someone to quit forever.
I think it's also important to remember that the VAST majority of people who want a PvP sandbox MMO are NEET and/or children, with a massive amount of time to sink into a single game. Unfortunately, this is also the population that is completely fucking broke, and thus not worth catering to from a business perspective. Even just charging a monthly sub to play (effectively at least) for EVE weeds out >90% of these retards, but it's standard for MMOs--they just can't or won't pay it, and try to stick to shit private servers because they're free.

>>1324176
if the only victory condition is everyone but you loses, the game dies

>>1324205
What else would it be? It's a game, all games have winners and losers.

>>1324144
Nobody claims PvP MMORPGs are more popular than WoW. You can just play WoW if you want WoW.

>>1324135
I play a lot of Quake and Dota 2
>>1324199
>The 'people' who want world PvP want to make the other player quit
No I don't.
>If loot is involved it always becomes one person who wants to fight and one who doesn't.
Two people can want each others wealth. It happens. Literally all the time. Two pkers run into each other and fight all the time in RuneScape despite your saying its dead. Does one person know when they're outmatched? sure. But its usually always worth it to try and kill a whale risking some wealth even if youre in just mystics and dhide

>>1324244
It's the other way around. I'm claiming that sandbox MMOs aren't popular.

>>1324486
either way there's nothing wrong with that.

>>1324495
Nobody claimed there's anything wrong with that. I was just randomly mocking you and, since you're this defensive, guess I hit a nerve.

>>1324224
What most successful MMO's are.
Most people win, PvP is limited for those that are interested.
>all games have winners and losers
bro is so PvP brained he can't even comprehend an NPC can take the L for people or that that's the entire design philosophy behind most video games.

Not really but whatever.

>>1324506
If you exclude the banana meme clicker game, the top 5 steam games right now are:
CS
DOTA
PUBG
Destiny
Rust

4/5 of these are PVP focused, as well as being spread across different genres. PVP isn't some weird niche interest, it's mainstream. If anything it's people being so WOWbrained they can't imagine anything else, they just want games like WOW they can play while bitching about how they're not WOW because WOW is better but also shit. Trends in the "MMO genre" are just one collective mental illness episode.

>>1324582
So all the PvP payers concentrate on a few games (most of these decades old, none sandbox) while the majority of sensible and well adjusted people spread over multitude of games? Thanks Captain Obvious!

>sandbox PVP isn't popular
>rust isn't sandbox
>rust, ARK, unturned and DayZ combined have 250k players right now

>>1324582
...okay?
PvP games are popular, that's great.
Doesn't disprove my point that most games don't need human losers to function, which was the claim you made. You've now pivoted from it to CS being popular?
>people being so WOWbrained they can't imagine anything else
I wonder why in the world people on a thread discussing PvP MMO's would want their PvP to be MMO's.
Are you even paying attention?

>>1324602
They are not persistent. You can switch servers whenever in them, and servers themselves often have regular wipes. They are also deeply customizable with gamerules varying greatly between the servers. MMOs on the other hand is one size fits all.

>>1324009
the only thing I don't understand about full loot tards is why you just don't admit that you are just a psychopath that likes inflicting pain on others
this is how it always goes:
pve/low ladder pvp/ player spends 20% of their time farming to make their gear (probably don't enjoy this) and 80% having fun
stage2:
people fight, the lower tier nearly always loses
now has to farm more just replace the gear they lost which is annoying, and it means more time spent in areas that are common gank spots (resource spots) where they are basically loot pinatas
at this point the winners already have their gear and probably a few replacements, and have no need to farm resources themselves
stage3:
losers now spending the majority of their time farming resources/gear, which means they get killed and lose even more in a feedback loop
winners have tons of easy pickings to kill people, spend 0 time gathering resources themselves and have chests and chests full of gearsets so even if they happen to die they basically risked nothing

this is inherent in the basic design
the losers spend more and more time doing menial shit they don't want to and not having fun and constantly losing things valuable to them
the gankers get to only have their fun and have huge stockpiles of resources/gear

>>1325524
Yes.
This is why I say that unlimited PvP benefits only griefers.
Competitive PvP players prefer limited PvP or PvP focused games that don't make you grind in the first place, so you can get back into it quickly. PvE players just lose in that situation, even if you enjoy the risk factor, once you lose you're done. So what's left? People that like the PvP but don't like a fair fight, that's it. They're games for griefers.

>>1325524
This is a limited view of sandbox behaviour.

Here’s what actually happens in EVE:
>Winning players band together in groups
>These groups fight for dominance.
>Only so much wealth can be leveraged per person, so more people are needed for the group to sustain it’s position.
>Group begins funding lower income players from its war coffers to enable it to field larger combat forces reliably.
>An arms race begins to field max players using huge legacy wealth
The end result is that every major new-player friendly organisation has a combination of free kit to hand out and giving reimbursement for losses so players can PVP without spending personal wealth. As soon as you beyond a micro player scale it’s far more efficient, effective and enjoyable for all involved if large chunks of PVP are essentially funded via collected organisational wealth.

You see smaller scale versions of this happen in non-MMO sandbox games. You find friends, and share out the weapons to keep people motivated and active and establish group dominance.

File: 1717450707728209.jpg (55 KB, 618x393)

55 KB JPG

Themepark MMO players don't understand "Risk vs Reward" after years of playing "No Risk, No Reward" games.

>>1325627
This is actually even worse for player retention and attraction; see Ark for an example.
Having large groups band together forces out solos first, and then small groups (people playing with their friends), leaving only mega clans.
On top of that, if you accidently attract the Chinese market you now have a group who's willing to hack, use barcodes/'123's, abuse the server/shard playercaps, exploit and glitches, and really just degrade the experience of every other player in any way possible to help them win even a little bit.

>>1325643
I don't know about Eve but in Albion, solo and duo players have their own open world to avoid groups. There's also tons of instanced content for various group sizes if you are looking for even fights.
Getting a large group to work together is a lot of work and there are lots of systems in place to counter deathballing. A 5v20 is still a fair fight because a debuff will cause the bigger group to deal less damage due to their numbers.

>>1325524
So its' an accurate real lif esimulation? What's wrong with that are you a poor loser IRL so it pains you to be one online too? Weak mental leads to weak gains.

>>1325684
weak bait leads to weak posts

>>1325524
It doesn't always play out like that you're having like reverse survivorship bias right now. EVE, OSRS, and Albion all feature full loot mechanics and don't rely on wipes (which would fix the problem you propose) to have a healthy PvP playerbase that anyone can buy into with minimal effort. It's also weird that you assume everyone that enjoys full loot somehow never die? I lose gear all the time in these styles of games. Everyone does. The key is for the balance to exist in such a place where you can earn gear sets back without too much of a time commitment while also having a fair balance between player account strength vs item/equipment strength.

>>1325664
Eve has some similarities. Some types of space favour mega-group play (nullsec), others have limitations on player travel that going above small group sizes highly inefficient/unreliable (wormholes).

There's various mechanics that allow guerrilla warfare against larger groups. Inherently large groups are less close-knit, so a skilled small group can usually outmaneuver them in skirmishes until reinforcements arrive.

Large groups also inherently need one-size-fits-all approaches to many situations - these are usually cheap and cheerful. Small groups or solo players who are willing to go for expensive loadouts can effectively contest big groups outnumbered when they play their cards right.

>>1325771
OSRS has a full loot mechanic but I would argue it's not a full loot game, since the overwhelming majority of kills will have 3/4 items saved, and normally the crushing majority of the value of a set will be in those saved items, often the rest of the set is practically worthless.

>>1325771
>out of dozens of examples that follow the trend you mention there are 3 counterexamples, so your trend is wrong
retard
and they aren't even good ones
eve has pseudo safe zones, which PvPers cry about constantly
the wilderness is like 5% of OSRS, terrible example
albion has safe zones
and I never even said that they don't die! you can't even read "have chests and chests full of gearsets so even if they happen to die they basically risked nothing"
if you have countless sets of gear you aren't risking anything meaningful to you when you slap on gearset#3495 and slap some newbies
it is incredible that I can explicitly mention PvPers dying and then you go "you forgot that PvPers die sometimes!!!!!!!"

>>1325636
after years of playing "no risk, reward"** games.
Literally the point of a themepark is to give you the dopamine drip without danger. You can argue that it's lesser because nobody tries to kill you in the process but you realize you can have a gambling addiction without making it everyone elses problem, I hope.

>>1325636
What risk is there for the typical sandbox PvPer who runs in a Discord group of other 500 sandbox PvPers who sell gold all day long and exploit everything in the game and gank noobs?

>>1327181
Nobody wants to convince you of anything. You are the PvE carebear that's arguing in bad faith.

>>1327181
Once the solo players and groups of friends quit the Discord group of other 1500 sandbox PvPers who sell gold all day long and exploit everything in the game will farm them 24/7 (then they'll quit too).

>>1326851
I think you're just looking for an excuse to hate on everything. I don't give a fuck if lots of PvP mmos fail, I enjoy playing the ones that don't. You just enjoy crying like a woman. You trans?

>>1327778
Yeah and?

honestly where did foxhole go wrong? seems like it's one of the few only games where losing your gear doesn't really matter since it's mass produced by other players for you to use for free essentially. you get to just jump in and fight and hopefully get some action without having to worry about skill points/levels/farming/marketplace, etc, all the chaff of your average owpvp game. the stakes for the individual player don't really matter and it still seems to peak at around 2.5k players daily, which I think might be enough for action for the individual player on a whim.

>>1338531
The game that's completely run by Discord trolls and you get killed if you don't have the right alliance tag while they cackle at you?

>>1338531
Clans and community mismanagement.
Logistics is fucking boring as shit. Outright horrid. This means people who go through that torture REALLY want to see the fruits of their labor and not have someone else get to use the fun stuff. So clans don't like to share things, and are active in trying to monopolize resources and force out solo players from doing anything other than be a bullet sponge. This is a pretty foreseeable problem, with a couple of clear solutions. One is to just say fuck clans, shit can't be saved or kept from the public war effort--anyone can use it. The other is to make logi more fun or less needed.
The devs instead decided to encourage this behavior, entrenching it into the game through various mechanics. This drives solo players away from the game, and cuts out a lot of casual play.
On top of that, the community has become shockingly furry and autistic in all the wrong ways, which further shuns new players and hinders player acquisition. These keep the playerbase small, meaning the clans continue to run rampant since there's not floods of new people (or opposing clans) to challenge them.
This could've been pretty easily mitigated but the devs are part of the problem, and seem to be fully embracing the issues which will keep their games small and unnoteworthy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkGTL-eFJzw
new sexpot waifu clit

>>1339121
*clip

>>1338536
I haven't played that game since before jade cove or something, that's why I'm asking lol. Seems like it's been dragged through hell. I remember when people would just pass on the QM role to whoever was best suited when they had to get off and there was a lot of communication going on in text chat. I ended up getting it a couple times. At the time there weren't clanfags so it seems a lot diff now.
>>1338537
Thanks for the answer, shame it's not worth getting back into. I remember doing partisan shit on foot and stealing vehicles, was pretty fun.

>>1253298
Full loot, or at least some loot PvP is what helps to make your interactions in the world more real.
Every person you run into is a potential conflict or friendly.
The way your heart will race and the way you'll ready yourself for a battle (or just run away at the sight of someone) is very fun if you learn to not take it all so seriously.
This is also why sandbox MMOs do it better, as they usually rely on rare/legendary loot being blueprints you can keep safe in a city or in your house/castle (or even just use and permanently know how to create something).
EVE does this well with making the resources you need to craft stuff rare, and not the items/ships themselves.
Other sandbox MMOs did this as well.
Survival games do this to a lesser extent, usually resources and the blueprints are super easy to come by tho, so no one really NEEDS the resources so they don't NEED to battle over them.

But that's how it can work. You lose a sword? Its not weeks of grinding a boss to get that rare sword to drop again, its just going to the store and buying one, because someone else spent the effort and risk getting the resources for you; or you craft your own replacement with the blueprint you got from the boss that one time two months ago.
It still sucks to lose shit, but you can budget for loss and only wear what you can afford to lose.

But all that said, full loot PvP is definitely shit in theme park MMOs. But then almost none have it, so why worry at all when being killed/ganked in PvP costs you nothing but a few minutes?
Just fight back and enjoy yourself.

>>1341480
So IRL you'd rather live in Chicago than in a normal city?

https://youtu.be/jB60MhzTjZo?t=2133
new waifu chubby shaved armpit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnS9ju43uHY
new waifu in tavern wench dress

>>1341570
I'd rather play a videogame where system rules allow for some element of player conflict along side elements of gameplay which also encourage cooperation.
Otherwise, what are you doing? Just wasting time chasing your skinnerbox addiction.

>>1349675
Answer the question.

File: Geralt Paid.png (1.08 MB, 960x540)

1.08 MB PNG

>>1238145
>Why are sandbox PvP MMOs always such a failure
Money and polish, that's it. All the popular themepark MMOs are all based off of successful IPs. Even if it's only minor, players are already subconsciously interested in the game because it shares a name/legacy/brand with something they already like. The only exception that comes to mind right now is OSRS, but you can argue nostalgia for that game's case. Every attempted sandbox PvP MMORPG in the past two decades are always from some random, unknown studio creating a new world that players have no former attachment to. And speaking of worlds, these games stupidly do not put in care into crafting a world that people enjoy just being in, which I think is a crucial part of this sub-genre, more so than it is for themeparks.
Also the games are usually janky as fucking and always suffer from at least three of the following
>ugly aesthetics/bad art style
>Ugly graphics
>Ugly characters
>Bland music
>Bland world and lore
>Bad animations
>Poor optimisation
>Bad tutorials
>Bad combat
If there was a PvP sandbox MMO that had even half the polish and quality of the current popular themepark MMOs, I have no doubt that it'd be alive and well right now.

>>1349888
>All the popular themepark MMOs are all based off of successful IPs.
Same goes for all the popular sandbox MMOs (there were only two - UO and SWG).

>>1349898
Yeah, that was supposed to be "current and popular themepark MMOs". Sometimes it feels like MMOs have to be built off an already established franchise to find long term success.

>>1349923
People just don't want to live in an alternate world that they're not already somewhat familiar with.

>>1349943
Yes, that's exactly why endearing players to the world is so important in MMORPGs, sandboxes especially, yet it's always neglected in them. You just get dumped into a generic fantasy world and are expected to make your own fun, when you don't care or know about about jack shit. It can work in single-player games, but not for MMOs, where the world and the players are half the fun.

>>1349888
>real PvP sandbox has never been tried
Every time.

>>1349967
Who said that?

>>1349971
he did, in his head

>>1349967
Huh?

>>1238145
Because Minecraft exists and that's genuinely what you're competing with in that genre
Years of nostalgia, custom servers, mods, etc.

THEY DID IT REDDIT
THEY HAVE SERVER MESHI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdav0as54mU
HUZZAH