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Why are sandbox PvP MMOs always such a failure and will Ashes of Creation follow suit /vm/?
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>>1238145
You answered your own question
>pvp
>with 2024 society
People view video games as effort vs reward, so theyll cheat and cheese to win over you. Any gathering of modern society has one inevitable result, this is why -all- mmos are garbage post 2000.
>>
its simple, the only people they attract are people that don't want actual pvp, but want to fight people that have no chance against them
you start out with the megaguilds > guilds > solo gankers > pve players
the pve players get tired of being farmed, so they leave
then the solo people have no people left that they can bully, and they get now only getting bullied themselves so they leave
this repeats over and over until the only people left are hyperautists that "won" and no one else has a chance against
then the new fresh game/server comes out, and people imagine that this time they will be the topdog and the whole cycle repeats
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>>1238387
very objectively unquestionably true if anyone that claimed to like hardcore pvp epic style was actually telling the truth theyd just play one of the thousand competitive games same exact thing with survival game players that supposedly like it cuz of the pvp no you just like winning fights you cant possibly lose
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>>1238387
This sounds like every Archeage server.
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>>1238457
yes, but also basically every other "PvP" game ever too
and Ashes is one rich retard trying to recreate arcehage so it is going to go exactly the same way
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>>1238145
I'm just not interested in giving money to gay pakistani drug addicts that loiter around children's hospitals
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>>1238145
If you have been following the dev for any amount of time you would know that ashes is doomed to fail because everybody associated with the project is an actual retard. Everything else about the game is irrelevant.
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>>1238592
>everybody associated with the project is an actual retard
>>1238586
>gay pakistani drug addicts that loiter around children's hospitals
Info please?
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>>1238387
Pretty much this. The thing that always makes me laugh is watching things like the associated subreddit or forums for the games. You see it happen in real time. PvE players complain, they get bashed, git gud, etc statements from everyone above them. So they leave, and then the solo gankers who were telling people to git gud start complaining. Rinse and repeat till dead. And its funny cause when you bring up how this genre is dying, they'll say things like "Oh well this MMORPG from the 2000s did just fine! Yes in the past 20 years the only games still alive in the genre are EvE and Albion, but that proves it can work!"

Meanwhile Albion only survived cause it put heavy restrictions on PvP and designed content in such a way that you can play loads of content either without pvp or restricted to only small groups, 1v1, etc, and made it so gear loss isn't that big of a deal. Its a well designed popular pvp game, don't get me wrong. But not sure I'd consider it a sandbox game. However it shows if any of these pvp focused mmorpgs are to survive, they need to design their game with these problems in mind. And many don't.
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>>1238713
it is more than that though
the pvptards think any safe zones or anything like that as what is "killing" the genre
like that retard that posts the same fucking image every thread
for the game that they envision to work you need a permanent underclass that is constantly being exploited by the pvp aspect that they do not enjoy and they want there to be no way for them to escape from that harm
then they are SHOCKED that people don't continue to play a game where they are punched in the balls every 15 minutes
it is like trying to imagine that a feudal-type society could function with 90% of the population being bandits and warlords, with 10% of the population being farmers and craftsmans that are essentially slaves...but the slaves have the option to just leave but don't
>>
PvP MMOs have a tough time in EU and NA because WoW has taught them that PvP can never be fair and fun.
Full-loot PvP is a huge redflag because they are expecting to be camped by high level rogues that are going to steal years worth of progress from them.
You should just accept that PvE themepark players are getting filtered by PvP. Those games are still very popular everywhere else, with Albion probably being at the top.
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>>1238387
This. PvP doesn't work because people are inherently socialist. They don't want to be bullied and they don't want to bully others. PvE is the natural way of things because it allows people to cooperate against common foes. We actually are biologically evolved to do that. PvP is as unnatural as our capitalist societies we live in. Everyone is miserable and it's all about transferring your misery onto others. The fact there was ever PvP in some of these MMOs at all is baffling. I can't even imagine what society was like in those days to make anyone think that was ever a good idea. If I would have been killed by someone I would have simply logged out and played something else. Every PvP MMO is pretty much dead on arrival.
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>>1238853
Not everything has to fit in your retarded socialist framework. The fact that you can't fathom competition makes you just sounds like a loser. The most popular games are focused on individuals or teams working against each other. The most popular game Fortnite is all about individuals or small groups working together to secure victory and team death match type games have dominated the industry since the early 2000s.
>>
Even PvP MMOs don't want ganking in their game because they know it makes players quit.
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>>1238927
Is the goal of Fortnite to steal so much of someone's time and effort that they quit the game? Because that's the goal of sandbox PvP MMOs.
>>
its hard as hell to develop and mmo
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>>1238725
would it work to have a feudal MMO where everyone acts as a minor lord and has a shitton of AI bots doing their bidding to act as the bottom 90% of a society? the (literal) farming gets done by a player's bots and it's up to the player to go raiding others or defend their lands from other players and their armies
>>
Risk = Fun
You don't get that in themepark MMORPGs where nothing really matters. It's just a slow grind for nothing. Risk-averse defeatists.
>>
PvP is MMO endgame. If your MMO is PvE only its not really a game, just a watch numbers go up simulator while you play against the same pre-programmed computer that does the same moves it was programmed to do every single time without fail. Fighting other players is the only dynamic experience in a videogame.
Unfortunately because of the reasons mentioned here
>>1238383
You'll never get a popular PvP mmo again, as 2024 players are all whiney faggots who will literally kill themselves in real life if they play at 95% efficiency as opposed to 100% because they got killed by another player.
>>
PvP MMOs aren't for everyone. If you don't like them, don't play them. They shouldn't cater to PvE players who hate PvP. Not every MMO has to be a World of Warcraft clone.
>>
>Stevens private little world
That faggot was notorious in AA to do very shady stuff. Anyone that thinks he wont abuse his position to give himself, his guild and his streamer friends advantage is braindead faggot.
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>>1239507
>. If you don't like them, don't play them.
This is the point the people in this thread are making. That nobody plays them cause most players don't want to play them. That's why 90% of them fail, why publishers avoid them like the plague, etc. Albion is the only one to have seen widespread success since EvE (so 20 years). That's because they actually designed their game well. PvE only zones (blue), varying gear drop rule zones (yellow, red, black), content that can only be done by solo or small groups, making gear acquisition easy to pad the negative feeling of dying.

Most pvp mmorpgs just give a ton of freedom to their players (mortal online, fractured online, etc). And they take advantage of that to cause the process seen in >>1238387.

Chances are if New World had followed Albion Online's example and implemented a similar structure, it would've blown up in population. NW first attempted the "too much player freedom" in the early testing stages. It backfired and cause a bunch of issues. So they reworked the entire game. But if they had gone the albion online route, I fully expect them to have seen much better success.
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>>1239203
no, because the bottom rung of the totem pole of the real humans is still going to feel like the bottom rung of the totem pole
>>1239480
there are countless games with actual pvp you can play
mmo pvp isn't real pvp because it is always about who has the better gear, more consumables, or more numbers
and even your lauded "dynamic" gameplay is no more advanced than a flowchart that goes down the same few paths every single time
if you really wanted a dynamic, fair pvp experience you would be playing a moba or a fighting game or basically any other game that has 10x more depth, player expression, and skill determines the outcome 95% of the time instead of mmos where it is is 5% of the time

i actually want open PvP to be in games, but the problem is all of the degenerate psychopaths flock to them and demand the same shit that every other game has ever done and it ends up in exactly the same way
i'm tried of these retards ruining every single game by demanding that the game be designed to cater to their The Most Dangerous Game or Somolian warlord RP
PvP should be an option because there will always be unresolvable conflicts, but it should be the last option and costly and dangerous
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>>1239595
What shady stuff?
>>
Does AoC copy from Albion/Eve? (would be a good thing)
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>>1239648
>mmo pvp isn't real pvp because it is always about who has the better gear, more consumables, or more numbers
So you aren't good at PvP but want to have a strong opinion, got it.
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>>1239605
Albion is not even a MMORPG, it's just a mobile MMO where you do nothing but grind and gank, it's extremely limited in scope. A "sandbox" game should be an entire virtual world that caters to dozens of different playstyles.
>>
>waifu an ashes of creation podcaster because she looks like an uglycute nice chubby shy smart hairy frumpy nerdy girl
>look her up and she's of course a degenerate cosplay whore
Fuck my life.
>>
>>1238927
Modern society was supposed to remove competition but we got all high on the idea of perpetual growth. You're just another pawn who thinks he's a temporarily embarrassed millionaire aren't you?
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>>1240299
Albion is about PvP. It doesn't need a story, quests, minigames and other singleplayer features that would only distract players. It's not a themepark MMO that's trying to have something for everyone.
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>>1239751
>So you aren't good at PvP but want to have a strong opinion
Ironic coming from the guy who only enjoy PvP in MMOs.
>>
>PvP means someone has to lose
>bad players blame the game and demand changes
>they raid the official forum/discord until the devs listen to them
>game dies
Never listen to PvE players.
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>>1240883
I enjoy lots of QuakeWorld, Dota 2, and War Thunder as PvP games outside of the MMO sphere. My MMO of choice to PvP in would be OldSchool RuneScape, a game with no doubt lots of PvM/E content in addition to its PvP content. You would be foolish to say PvP is nothing but gear, you'd be implying the whole concept of anti-pking doesn't really exist.
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>real PvP has never been tried!
Every fucking time.
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>>1239605
You are correct but you are in the wrong board, the wrong website even. Of course "git gud lol" is all you'll get in this thread because you're talking to the very same lolpk power fantasy psychopaths you refer to in your posts.
A winning formula for PvP MMOs is to provide options to cater to all sorts of playstyles, which Albion provided. Unrestricted WPvP, especially in sandbox survival, has repeatedly failed exactly because of what you've said, but all posters here care about is their power fantasy and they'll chase it game after game after game, boom to bust to boom to bust.
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>>1240498
>It's not a themepark MMO that's trying to have something for everyone.
That's not what a "themepark MMO" is dumbass.
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The most fun I had in a PvP MMO was in WAR and it punished ganking faggotry while promoting PvP battles 24/7. Just the player collision made it better than 90% of PvP MMORPGs.
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>>1238145
>Why are sandbox PvP MMOs always such a failure
Because they listen to forum users, and their discord. Its a repeating cycle. The games that stand strong against them, has a strong game for years. Look at Path of Exile, while not a PVP mmo, they just recently caved on their promise to never have an auction house. The actual hardcore playerbase is furious.
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>>1241701
>they just recently caved on their promise to never have an auction house
Holy shit finally, now if they would just stop nerfing builds every 2 months I might go back to the game.
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>>1241730
Buy all your gear, and on to the next fad!
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aoc is never coming out
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>>1240313
name
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>>1241788
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91eS4iGoEHQ
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>>1241763
I couldn't even name one modern MMORPG that doesn't have "official real money trading" (either directly or via tradeable cash shop items).
Every game on that list is p2w.
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>>1238145
I think every possible argument for why MMOs are dying/dead has already been said from culture, to business practices to everything else.

The only thing I'd add is that any company making a new MMO in the year of our Lord 20024 - 18000 should actually "unironically" look to scale it down.
It doesn't need to be this next big thing that will have 6 gorillion players.
It doesn't need to be "best graphics in MMO eva".
It doesn't even need to be "See that mountain? You can climb it!"

And when you scale your megalomanical goals down to a more reasonable degree and are no longer chasing profits above everything else, certain other things become feasible. Things like blocking every fucking non-european (minus russia/ukraine)/non-murrican IP from accessing your fucking game. I wonder how much reduction in bots and general cancer would any such game see.
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>MMOboomers in their late 30s still chasing that high they got from playing [their favourite MMO] when it was good
These guys should invent a time machine instead.
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>>1241763
holy fuck you didn't play a single one of these games
wildstar is your go-to example of a hardcore pvp game
this has to be bait
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>>1242157
It's absolutely bait, the faggot keeps reposting it and every single time he gets BTFO. He used to use a different image a few times too before switching to that one.
My favorite example in that list is the fag unironically thinking Tree of Savior was successful before the PVP changes and that ToS pvp was even good in the first place. The damn game relaunched several times for a reason.
>>
Isn't PK the point of endgame in a good MMO?
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>>1241945
they did, it's called vanilla wow
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>>1238387
I disagree. Most fail because the games themselves are inherently shit. New World is the latest example of a game switching to PvP to PvE, only for the game to still end up being a dead piece of shit.
>>
For MMOs people need a goal and something to work towards (or pay towards to get there faster) and sandbox MMOs don't supply that, they don't know what to do, can't think of anything to do, so they switch off.
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>>1249816
These games provide tools to make your own fun. A sandbox MMO doesn't need to hold your hand all the time.
It's okay when low IQ players get filtered. There are plenty of other MMOs that can be played with your brain turned off.
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>>1250947
>you can gank and then you can...
So, use your high IQ to give some examples.
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>>1251962
Roleplay.
>>
I want to like Albion and consistently play it, but whenever I do I think "why the fuck am I playing this" and end up playing OSRS or something. And you basically do need the membership to play the game, you literally get 2x the resources just for having a sub.
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>>1251971
>you can... do nothing!
Whoa, just like you can roleplay in themepark MMORPGs.

Try again.
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>>1253204
How can you roleplay when you can't even attack each other? You just don't have conflict?
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>>1253130
With premium you have a 50% chance to get 2x resources independent of your gathering yield%. You don't go on gathering runs without premium as there are much better ways to earn silver.
In group content, you can let someone with premium open chests to get the bonus.
You can always create a new character, get three days premium for free, farm Mists and transfer the silver to your main.
Premium isn't that expensive and f2p players can afford it easily. Once you bought a month, it literally pays itself from just playing casually and spending focus every three days.
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>>1253238
>How can you roleplay with the game limitations
Same way you roleplay in a sandbox, MMORPG, duh.

Try again.
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>>1253246
Something tells me you've never roleplayed in an MMO, perhaps never even played an MMO besides WoW and maybe Wizard 101.
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>>1253278
I was playing NWN, probably before your parents were dating, and the roleplaying aspect was pretty lackluster due the obvious limitations of video games, despite having dedicated GMs. Perhaps never even played a real tabletop RPG.

Now, try again.
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>>1253280
I think it was pretty lackluster because no one wants to engage faithfully with you because you act like a nigger. I don't need to "try" anything, I have fun playing the games I like, you have so little fun playing the games you like that you come into other threads and whine at people.
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>>1239480
Why would anyone care to play PvP in an MMO instead of a normal game dedicated to only PvP?
PvP in MMOs are usually either stat/gear dependent in which the actual skill of the players matters less or it's just an unbalanced mess since it's a gamemode tacked onto a different game. There's novelty in open world pvp and large scale arenas like WvW in GW2 but once they get too optimized it becomes cringe because that shit can never be balanced correctly compared to the better alternatives.
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>>1253296
>no one wants to engage faithfully with you because you act like a nigger
Ironic coming from the guy throwing insults and strawmanning.

BTW, I'm still waiting for examples of anything to do in sandbox MMORPGs outside ganking.
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>>1253298
MMOs without full-loot PvP aren't really PvP MMOs. Full loot PvP is a core feature of every sandbox MMO. Risk vs Reward doesn't exist in games with more forgiving PvP but this is what makes PvP fun and exciting.
PvP games like MOBAs or fighting games don't have that. It doesn't really matter when you win or lose in these games.
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>>1253299

PvE content, such as questing, dungeon crawling, and monster hunting
Crafting and gathering resources to create powerful equipment and items
Building and managing your own guild or faction
Participating in player-driven economies and trading
Exploring the game world and uncovering hidden secrets and treasures
Forming alliances and making enemies with other players and factions
Participating in large-scale battles and siege warfare for control of territories
Roleplaying and immersing yourself in the game's lore and storylines.
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>>1253370
So you just want a MMO that has PvP where you drop all items on death?
Why not play extract shooter or play in a Minecraft server that has that instead?
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>>1253380
You can do all of that in themepark MMOs, high IQ guy.
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>>1253393
I'm not into first person shooters. I do play Foxhole and Vrising but those games aren't really MMORPGs.
What do you have against full loot PvP in MMORPGs? (like Eve or Albion)
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>>1253412
That's a chatgpt reply.
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>>1253416
>no real reply
Go figure.
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>>1253415
>I'm not into first person shooters.
Dark and Darker

>What do you have against full loot PvP in MMORPGs?
They're just redundant and would likely just be a better as a standalone game and not forced to be an MMO.
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>>1253433
I'm not into games that are played from a first-person perspective in general.
>They're just redundant and would likely just be a better as a standalone game and not forced to be an MMO.
PvP again is pointless when winning and losing means nothing. I don't care about system-generated participation trophies. I don't care if someone has to walk back to their corpse but someone has to lose something so someone else can win.
I'm not talking about ganking. That's a Quit Moment in any game but unfortunately that's the only kind of PvP experience you get in themepark MMOs like WoW.
In Albion maybe less than 1% of PvP is ganking (overpowering players who can't defend themselves).
>>
>>1253544
Nobody likes to lose their progress to a gang of niggers, that's why civilization was invented.
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>>1253736
>Nobody likes to lose their progress to a gang of niggers, that's why civilization was invented.
Ganking isn't PvP and nobody likes it. It's borderline griefing. PvP should be fair.
There's nothing else to spend your ingame resources on in a sandbox MMO. If you don't spend it on PvP, you are endlessly increasing your wallet for nothing. Maybe your sandbox MMO even has wipes then there's even less reason to hoard and worrying about losing progress.
These games don't have an endgame like themepark MMOs do. They don't need to release new content to keep players busy because the endgame is about player-driven conflict.
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>>1253753
>nothing to do but PvP
>if you lose you need to do chores to do PvP again
>assuming you don't get ganked first
Give me a good reason to play that shit instead of a real PvP game.
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>>1253761
Think of it like playing Poker with or without money. What is more fun to you?
>if you lose you need to do chores to do PvP again
You should never risk more than you are willing to lose. In these games you don't lose your ingame wallet, just what items you carry with you. If you lose a fight, you can easily replace your lost set (either crafting it or buying from others). The PvE can be done with cheap equipment if you don't care about PvP.
>assuming you don't get ganked first
When you make 1-2m per hour doing PvE, losing a 50k set from time to time barely matters. You open loot chests, hit a jackpot, recall and bank it. You don't walk around with full pockets.
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>>1253789
>Think of it like playing Poker with or without money. What is more fun to you?
False equivalence. You're talking about losing a hand of poker, then you go to the ATM machine, notice that you don't have money and then you have to work for a month before playing another hand.

>inB4 >automated teller machine machine
>>
I only ever liked pvp in mmos because of medium and large scale pvp in the fantasy genre. You just can't get it anywhere else, I don't give a shit about full loot or high stakes, there are survival pvp games for that. The only MMO that's ever actually successfully pulled off mass pvp without dying is EVE and it's not even fantasy, so the genre is very lacking. The other games tried to rely on nigger gankfest shit too much which isn't fun at all and lacks the impressive scale of a fight, it's just surprise attacking people who have smaller stat sticks which is fucking lame.
>>
>>1238145
The MMO PVP community is utterly unhinged and isn't satisfied until they've ran anyone else off the server and made everyone else's lives as miserable as possible in the most shitty ways possible.

There's no balance with these people, no moderation or middle ground. They can't just kill a guy, be satisfied for winning, take a bit of loot and leave.
They have to kill a guy, camp his body for 2 hours, loot everything he has, follow him back to his spawn, raze his shitshack and take the scraps he's been grinding.

It turns out people don't really like that, and unless you're part of some massive clan of these people who all group up and steam roll any small groups or individuals, you can't do anything about it, and as it turns out people don't like that either.
And then of course, these clans run into other clans, and then it becomes an arms race of whoever can abuse, exploit and do as much shitty stuff as possible in order to win. Offline raiding, bug abusing, using alts and a bunch of other metagame bullshit, all to win in a fucking video game.
Look at shit like Haven and Hearth or Mortal Online and it's absolutely full of people who do this shit and complain that there's no new people joining the game because the developers made some minor balance change, or fixed some obvious exploit.
>>
>>1241701
PVP in Wakfu was fucking awful though.
It was literally just max levels camping basic resource nodes in order to kill new players trying to make level 20 sets and shit.

Combine this with it being a turn-based game, and they quickly figured out that the optimal way to gank new players was to drag them into turn based combat and proceed to AFK, leaving the other player unable to do significant damage to them, and each turn take as long as possible.

So, yeah no shit they removed the ability for PVPfaggots to drag level 15s into a 1hr long battle with half of that time being waiting for the grief's move to time out.
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>>1254125
Agree but EVE kinda sucks due the time dilation mechanic, what a travesty (heh) of mechanic.

I think I only had fun playing WAR, it was based on battlegrounds (shit mechanic for a MMO) but the zergfest and sieges in the PvP zones were pretty fun and usually packed with people. And just player collision puts WAR ahead of most PvP MMOs.
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>>1238383
>this is why -all- mmos are garbage post 2000.
Make that 2003 or whatever is needed to draw the line between FFXI and WoW.
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>>1254300
TiDi is much better than the alternative (servers completely shitting themselves). Also, if you often find yourself in a TiDied system, there's a high chance you are a retarded, useless dullsec carebear and need to KYS IRL (in game).
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>>1238145
Ashes of creation is being funded by a billionaire, he doesn't give a fuck if it's popular or not. He just wants to make a pvp game.
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>>1254300
We need a game like Foxhole but not shitty, less friendly to griefers but not in a world war setting. Haven't played foxhole in years since the jade cove thing but participating in a huge offensive attack is something few games have been able to do.
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>>1254815
Anvil Empires. Medieval version of Foxhole by the same devs.
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>>1254985
>by the same devs.
So
>not shitty, less friendly to griefers
falls into the water.
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>>1238469
Archeage died because of p2w not pvp
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>>1256142
??? Foxhole is great.
>>
>>1260963
What's the difference between being roflstomped by a P2Wer, a RNG lottery winner, GM's e-gf, a RMTer, or a 24/7 grinder?
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>>1261116
Your bias against p2w has blinded you
It isnt about the differences between any of those

if you played before launch you'd know that it was possible to grind arch dust. And when launch hit they packed it all away into coin purses gated by labor; then sold you that dust through the gacha.
That didnt kill the game perse, but its indicative of everything else that occurred; the cash item that was probably the worst was rumbling tree which removed the benefit of illegal tree farms and thus emergent content from the game.

In PvP games, theres generally things a PvEr can do, even raiding; or in AA youd be able to run tradepacks through zones during peacetime such as the hellswamp part.

But having all your efforts cheated by someone spending 1k feels dumb as shit
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>>1261145
So you don't have an answer?
>>
retard
>>
>>1241763
>mentioning the absolute shitshow that is planetside 2 as example of success
You are a flaming fucking faggot who didn't play either planetside, and probably half of the other games on your gay ass list.
t. 1000+ hours in original planetside
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>>1238145
>Vek
>christian navigators
>appearance of trolls
>funded by a billionaire
Let me guess, you guys can't disillusion yourselves through this one either.
>>
>>1241810
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR679kXeAVE

Another waifu stream.
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PVP will always be the ultimate end game of any MMO.

Gear is both a reward and a tool, and no one gives a fuck about the ultimate uber god dragon slayer sword that you get from killing the final boss of the final raid that takes 2000 hours to get to when the only thing you can do is kill that same boss 10 seconds faster.

PVP is where metagaming thrives, where you can test your collections of gear, items, and your builds to see how it stacks up against others. In a good PVP game this would be dynamic AF. The problem is all the honor duel faggots who claim to have skill won't move onto MOBAs and bitch non-stop about the game not being 'balanced' when in reality they want to sit and kick puppies via a queue system without the threat of newbros calling for backup from their friends and guild.

The only decent PVP sandbox game right now is EVE Online, and the surface level gameplay is absolute dogshit that was outdated even in 2003, but it maintains the soul of why people like to grind and fight in MMOs in the first place.
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How we feeling
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>>1266562
Archeage was just shit in general held back by typical dogshit korean design.

coomers aren't a sustainable playerbase, litterally get cumbrain and move onto to the next coomerbiat koreashit game.
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People who bemoan the loss of society in gaming and then blame it on the games fundamentally do not understand the issue. It isn't the game's fault. The problem is that people are simply worse now. There's been a general spiritual and social decay that make 99% of people horrible creatures not worth talking to, and it has a chilling effect on all social spaces.
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MMOs usually have massive customization which means so many variables that make it impossible to balance.

Almost all MMOs are based on investing large amounts of time to power up your avatar/character (be it levels or gear).

This means that your time investment is more important than your actual skill so pvp is always
has been and will be a joke.
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>>1267701
>balance
There's that word again, MMOs are NOT meant to be a hyper balanced esport, and even esports suffer when they're hyper balanced instead of dynamic and interesting.

"balanced" games are solved games, and an MMO wants you to grind for hundreds or even thousands of hours, and the only way to makeg grinding interesting is being able to try and new new things in the dynamic sandbox that MMOs provide when they do MMO PVP.

If you want hyperbalanced 'skillbased' instanced dogshit, MOBAs already exist. MMOs aren't about 1v1 or 5v5 hyperbalance, its about community vs community, guild vs guild, faction vs faction, and the social conflict and conquest. MMOs lost that when they tried to be hyperbalanced like WOW nutering itself with instanced dogshit.

MMOs cannot compete with MOBAs, and they shouldn't.
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it is hilarious how defenders of MMO PvP aka being a level 60 rogue killing newbies in Redridge have this delusional fantasy that they are engaging in the deepest, most complicated, and the only true way to play a game
it isn't enough to just say that they personally enjoy it, no
the are engaged in the most sophisticated, patrician form--that of shoving people smaller than you into lockers
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>>1267957
>I have no friends the post
Why do anti-PVPers always post like they're the loneliest entitled nerds who wants an MMO to be a single player gacha grindfest.

WOW already exists, stay in your containment game.
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>>1267957
>enters thread about sandbox PvP MMOs
>posts WoW, a themepark PvE MMO
lmao
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>>1267982
Ah yes, because megazerg guilds/corps/whatever in Eve and other PvP sandbox MMOs are always a tight-knit group of friends.
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Has anyone ever thought of making a sandbox PvP MMO with a relatively low grind-free power ceiling, so that most people are either on an even playing field or the underdogs can quickly catch up with the bullies? Every time I gaze upon these sandbox MMOs it's always "you can't even scratch me unless you grinded for 50000 hours in the area that we control and don't let anyone access in order to craft Belial's Anal Beads Of Doom and Sissyphus's Backscratcher" shit.
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>>1268823
Why would anyone play them then?
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>>1268837
To have fun playing videogames? Fight people and shit? Do you sandbox PvP drones really only care about bullying others?
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>>1268823
What you are describing is PvP in a themepark MMO. That kind of vertical progression that makes you immortal to players below you doesn't exist in sandbox MMOs. Your character doesn't even have a level and there's often very little character-bound power/progression.
Your power comes from what you are wearing and you are always at risk of losing it.
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>>1268871
Why not just play a non-MMO then? In MMOs gear matters and guilds matter and skill matters. You just want to play Tarkov or some shit.
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>>1268871
nofriends detected
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>>1268971
>HnH is a themepark mmo
retard
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>>1268976
Hopelessly fagtastic reply. No wonder the genre sucks ass with cunts like you.
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>>1269008
Where did I say that?
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>>1269092
you said sandbox mmos don't have levels and all of their power is borrowed
nearly all of a titan's power in HnH comes from stats and skills that aren't from gear, probably 80/20 or 90/10
so either HnH isn't a sandbox MMO or your claim that the power in sandbox MMOs never comes from grinding a character up is wrong
it is fucking amazing that I have to explain this
are you legitimately retarded?
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>>1269330
Haven and Hearth? I can't figure out what game you are talking about.
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>>1269339
Heritage not Hate
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>r-real PvP MMO has never been tried!
Every time.

Ironically it fails for the very same reason that communism.
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>>1266562
>tfw Kakao partner for Archeage
>10k hours post-2020
>top tier guild, actively able to kill anything that moves
>can defend bosses from significantly higher numbers of enemies
>arguably the best bard left on the server
>several decorated RP houses
And it will all perish into nothing in two months. All my costumes, my furniture, my houses. Everything I've worked for, gone. 3,000€ spent over 3 years; and for what?

I'm not okay.
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>>1271467
Communism fails due to the inevitability that power corrupts and the state always hungers for more power. PvP MMOs fail because devs listen to PvE carebears who don't play beyond the starting area and sabotage their games.
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>>1272567
lol retard
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>>1272567
Smartest MMO PvP enjoyer.
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>>1238387
>its simple, the only people they attract are people that don't want actual pvp,

I usually don't go for PVP but I like to play in a PVP world because it adds an interesting social dynamic and level of risk.
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>>1266562
god it's about fucking time
that game started circling the drain years ago
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>>1272567
>PvP MMOs fail because devs listen to PvE carebears
Name one
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So many replies yet no recommendation for good mmos with pking
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oSBNQ8VjTo

New update is here!
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>>1271674
>3,000€ spent
LMAO
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https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2134041784 fuck she is so hot holy gott please let me have a chance with her
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euPLiJ0eHx8
Why is AoC being shilled by a raging 40 year old crater face nerd with zoomer hair lmfao? This dude is wild. So ass pained because some guy said he doesn't think a game with "kill 20 goblins" quests will be a WoW killer, that he went on an incel rant for half an hour about it.
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>>1238387
True, just look at the occasional thread on /v/ seething about that coop Elder Ring mod. Those people just want to shit on others, not have a normal pvp fight.
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>>1275313
where the fuck did you get this video from, and why? Random retards wanting to be influencers by copying the personality, reactions, and attitudes of what they consoom are the bane of moderns society.
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>>1275565
Just watching AoC updates, they have an insane set of 100 view "influencers" it's hilarious.
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https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/59381/the-desert-biome-is-real-right

Last showcase confirmed for being fake.
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AI will "fix" the MMO genre, unironically. Other players are always the biggest obstacle in enjoying them. If you log in as a new player, the first thing you see is some retarded kid spamming cryptic nonsense or screeching autists discussing the latest politics and goyslop shows. If they don't glitch and cheat their way through PvP matches, they'll gank and spawn kill you. If they're idle in town, they look like the biggest imersion-breaking rainbow-sparkling faggots possible, stacking and glitching into each other, and eating your frames while blinding you. If they happen to participate in your story quest, they'll make sure to skip everything and dance in the background while you stand like a clown trying to read the quest. Forget about obtaining property, that house over there belongs to the richest Twitch streamer and he'll make sure to keep it. Did you accidentally acquire an enemy in a PvE game? Good luck trying to do anything as they continue to follow you on their main and wipe out the entire area of mobs right front of you.

MMO players shilling the next big thing are like communists. "Surely it will work this time!"
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>>1239648
>but it should be the last option and costly and dangerous
Actually I think this is where the mistake is,
What if it wasn't costly or dangerous.
Heck what if it was actually beneficial to get killed by another player.
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>>1276289
Then the PvPers wouldn't play since they're only having fun when they kill people and make them lose real life time/resources and make them sad/mad.
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>>1275565
>>1275313
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbBTUs_bVwk
Dude literally has a grey beard and lives in an anime dungeon like he's 15 holy shit.
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>>1275313
ISI money laundering
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>>1238145
Why would you want to spend 1000 hours grinding when you can just play Fortnite to pvp
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzbrG-TaM-0
new waifu video
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>>1281261
i'm so fucking in love
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>>1271674

> Trusted gooks from korea not to just rugpull you after you spent thousands in their video game just so they release something else right after in an attempt to make you rinse and repeat the process

Archeage going offline is a bad day i feel you, but given the horrendous stats it had for years im actually surprised they didn't pull the plug sooner.

Game was close to perfection and had so much potential back in 2014 then they decided to go full korean retards on it.

Koreans are a double edged sword, they can make A tier games that can explode in popularity within a month and have them die a brutal death, all in the same year lol.

Those fuckers are ruthless rugpullers when it comes to gachapon gaming.
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>>1282268
Didn't Archeage die and resurrect multiple times already? Just like Bless? Seems like a good business strategy to just milk the same idiots with the same game, each time promising it'll be good.
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>>1282464

Base game died after devs were unable to update anything in the game due to korean devs holding the rights to the code.

Then base game moved to kakao games with even more pay to win shit added to it.

Archeage Unchained came which claimed no pay to win and split the remaining community into total irrelevance and the game has been having shit numbers ever since. Even on Unchained you have days with approx 10-20 people on the server.
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>>1238145
In my experience PvP in MMOs is always 100% gear dependent rather than skill, as an adult with a girlfriend, full time job, and an actual life everytime I've tried to PvP in an MMO I just get wrecked, not even because of skill but because I can't possible catch up to the grind

Can't even git gud in PvP MMOs. If I want to PvP i might as well play something like Team Fortress or Overwatch where it's somewhat of an even playing field
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>>1282800
Just buy a geared toon lmfao?
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Does it have full loot PvP? If not then it's a PvE MMO. Simple as.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygDXte1AX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygDXte1AX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygDXte1AX8
NEW AMA IS UP!!!
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Ashes looks like a huge fucking joke to me.
I don't think it's a scam but jesus christ there are clearly red flags here about the game's development, and whether it will actually be a "good" MMO.
This video https://youtu.be/eOdU6gJ07rQ?si=w2VFSXNZLiMyQlKL
7 years ago
Mentions it "has a caravan system".
3-6 months ago? The caravan system is ACTUALLY done. Promises? The actual content? Huge time disconnect.
But to me the thing that stands out most is how "shallow" the game looks. What's the actual combat, enemies, bosses, dungeons look like? Everything I've seen of this looks incredibly lame, basic and following in the footsteps of every past MMORPG.
For god's sake they went all in on the MMORPG trinity with generic fantasy classes as basically DPS, then "Tank", then Cleric for Healer. They might as well call all DPS classes "Damager".
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>>1288824
Sounds like you're a scurred widdle PvEbabby.
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>developer used console commands to trigger an event in a Livestream
How shit can you get
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>>1288824
>MMORPG trinity with generic fantasy classes as basically DPS, then "Tank", then Cleric for Healer
Why would you want to avoid trinity class design? It's just a classic strong party composition, and when you have to potentially contend with other players in open world PVP it's nice to know your predefined roles.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm6NOnO0Dqg
new waifu in skimpy dress :)
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>>1288872
sounds like you're a subhuman who will cry "dead game" after having no one left to bully.
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>>1282800
pvp in mmos is a meme and only works on paper. as the novelty of open world hardcore pvp wore off, people grew tired of wasting their time and effort to circumstances beyond their control. having an overgeared/overleveled opponent gank you makes you sooner abandon the game than "encourage" you to compete. real pvp players don't play mmos, it's only for people who want to dominate others by wasting more time/money than their opponent who's preferably as weak as possible.

>>1288824
all "open world pvp" mmos are a scam simply because this shit never works. none of them stood the test of time and always either alienated the overwhelming majority of pve players due to the baked-in toxicity or the pvp crowd by continuously discouraging/abandoning the pvp part in favor of the pve crowd.
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>>1290196
because they're not being innovative anywhere. this game has been shilled for a decade now by absolute morons and has fuck all to show. you ahve to be fucking clown to fall for a game spearheaded by a scammer.
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>>1292180
Ok and? You mean superhuman?
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>>1292194
learn2read monkey
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-1S5g1IMmE
horny waifu reveals freshly waxed forearms, huge disappointment
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>>1288824

The guy behind it is some rich trust fund baby who spent six figures on his archeage guild doing market manipulation and flying out guild mates to events. The guy was known to be an arrogant control freak and absolute weirdo.

How do you expect this type of guy to lead an MMO's development to success ? The game won't come out and if it does he'll tank it quickly.

He just wants this to be his ''life project'' so people can stop calling him a loser living off his parent's savings. As long as he keeps dragging it on he'll have a purpose, so i don't think he sees any interest in meeting deadlines and actually delivering what people want.
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>>1293973
Pretty much my theory too but I think he's already bored of it by now, you can see he's just drugged out and completely uninterested in livestreams and people around him are too afraid to do anything just like in the guild.
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>>1292189
It doesn't have to be innovative, it just has to be a functional and coherent game, like fuck is that really too much to ask for in an MMO? We don't even need new wacky cuhhrazy shit no one's ever heard of before, we just need someone to deliver a fucking reasonably quality game that doesn't irreparably crash and burn it's own reputation right out the gate and knows what it wants to be. New World is an example of that, idk who the fuck still plays that game but it has worse numbers than korean slop. These devs can't even create a minimum viable product anymore. Unsurprisingly ashes doesn't look like it's going to be good either since they've been struggling with basic concepts for like a decade. Fuck man, is there anything else on the horizon? Camelot is never happening, neither is Pantheon. Anything at all? Hello MMO devs, what are you doinggggggg



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