Cloyster is now banned to Ubers in Gen 5 OU.
Reminder to not respond to anyone saying "fanfic meta", "candyland meta", "campaignshitter", or "smoggie".
>>55856087>candyland fanfic smoggie metaok campaignshitter
Omgon ban vagina
>>55856124Winter vagina is not an issue anymore it appears.
>candyland fanfic smoggie meta for a 15-year-old formatwhy the FUCK should anyone care?
I thought campaignshitters told me ice types are bad? What happened?
>>55856087Rigged vote by sand-trannies
>>55856154shell smash and skill link, plus rigged vote as gen5 trannies don't want to actually fix the tier, just put baindaids on it >>55856152ice type is still dogshit btw
>>5585615250k ladder games a month at least.. There are certainly more BW OU players than /vp/ users
>>55856181They ARE fixing the tier. Volcarona and Cloyster have got to go if Gen 5 is to be fixed. If you want to truly fix it, you also have to get rid of Drizzle, Drought, and Sand Stream.
>>55856181What would be the real fix? I haven't followed gen 5's meta since it was current.
>>55856202Cloyster could probably be okay if more severe changes occurred (Latios especially), but that's hypothetical
>>55856107here, take my (you) and go with god. compfags are banished from his light.
>>55856274You can only go to heaven if you accept the validity of tiering into your heart.
>>55856087>ice is totally a bad type guys j-just ignore all of the ice types we ban
>>55856087I always knew cloyster was GOATed, ever since Skill Link came out I always used it with a king's rock. It's bulky enough to setup a shell smash on any physical attacker and then go to town with icicle spear/rock blast. Faggots using white herb didn't know its greatness
>>55856411>ice is totally a good when propped up by KANTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO privilege yes
>>55856087Cloyster's stat spread is so iconic
>>55856087This is an actually good ban, though. Cloyster, similar to Volcarona, is a ticking time bomb that only needs ONE (1) turn to use its boosting move, and just like that it's capable of sweeping entire teams with no viable counterplay.And since this is gen 5, where the powercreep hasn't gotten obscene enough to render Cloyster's strategy irrelevant, it's actually an extremely deadly force that requires you to rely on low damage rolls to actually survive. Even in Ubers the bastard's a force to be reckoned with, as only Kyogre and Manaphy can reasonably survive its +2 wrath, not counting the doomsday scenario of a successful crit shitshow.
>>55856945Absolutely. The fact that Cloyster isn't good in the modern meta is just proof of how heinous power creep has gotten.
>>55856204ban weather
>>55857025That would destroy the identity of the generation and would necessitate the bans of a lot more Pokemon (Latios, Garchomp, Kyurem-B, Keldeo, Dragonite).
>>55856087Based. Old-gen players are the best ones.
>>55856087If Smogon is going to start banning old-gen Pokemon, they should ban Snorlax in Gen 2 and Latias in Gen 4.
>>55856945>no viable counterplay.252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 291-346 (120.7 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKOCloyster has shit tier sp defense
>>55857491Lucario itself isn't viable in Gen 5 even with its SD + Extreme Speed set. Relying on a bad Pokemon to check a broken one isn't healthy for the meta. Just look at Gen 8 when people were forced into running Water Absorb Seismitoad to stand a chance at not losing to Vish.
>>55857485Yeah I thought bans stop after a gen ends or something like that? I could have sworn that was an autistic rule they have, one of many.
>>55857510>n-nooo you can't just use a counter to the most prevalent meta threatThis is why people mock smogonites.
>>55856411What like all 3 of them?
>>55857514The shitmon you brought is utterly useless if your opponent doesn't bring the thing you want to counter. You're playing 5v6 in every scenario where you're not fighting the counter.
>>55856087Is BW the most identity-less generation of them all?Its honestly utterly sad and depressing how they've completely gutted it.
>>55857520What are some gen V threats other than Cloyster? Tyranitar? It gets outspeed and OHKOd by CC even with 0 EVs and a -Atk nature.
>>55857544Tyranitar isn't staying in on Lucario. It only ever comes in to Pursuit Trap Psychic/Ghost types or to set the weather. Several really common Pokemon, like Latios, Tentacruel, Landorus-T, Jellicent, Jirachi, Scrotom-Wash, Starmie, and Dragonite, all switch in on Lucario for free and kill it.There's a reason Lucario BARELY makes the top 50 in Gen 5 OU. It barely beats out Espeon and Slowbro (50th and 51st).
>>55857510> Lucario isn't viable in Gen V OU> check https://www.smogon.com/dex/bw/pokemon/lucario/> Lucario is OUwhut?
>>55857584Forgot my pic. Hell, Espeon actually has a higher usage rate than Lucario, but Lucario is used more often by higher rated players than Espeon.
>>55857590It's OU due to legacy reasons only. After a generation ends, Pokemon don't drop tiers by usage anymore. If you and your buddies manage to get Milcery and Caterpie into OU by usage in the last month of the generation, they're staying in that gen's OU for the rest of forever.
>>55857485>ban Snorlax in Gen 2>Zapdos, Raikou and the other special attackers are now free to run wild on the tier>Blissey takes Snorlax's place>can't deal damage outside of a gimmicky Present/Seismic Toss set>GSC becomes the true stallfest non-GSC players think it currently isGood job, retard.
>>55857616Ban Zapdos and Raikou as well. Maybe even Cloyster, Gengar, Nidoking, and Jynx.
>>55857629>now Suicune becomes the dominant superpower of the meta and mogs the everloving shit out everyone and everything because nothing can reliably bruteforce its godly bulk
>>55857491>>55857514retard thinking that since unaware quagsire can beat pre-nerf zacian crowned means zacian isnt broken
>>55857596>+2 252 SpA Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Ferrothorn: 354-416 (100.5 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO>+2 252 SpA Lucario Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 294-348 (97.6 - 115.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock>+2 252+ SpA Lucario Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 338-398 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock>+2 252+ SpA Lucario Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Rotom-Wash: 157-185 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery>>>55857584>Tyranitar isn't staying inBut Lucario is staying in? Besides it's not like they can switch freely into Lucario either
>>55857491>you shouldn’t ban mega fug because cloud nine golduck is viable counterplay in ubers
maybe competitive pokemon is just bad
>>55856202>GAME SHOULD BE DIFFERENT GAME UNGA BUNGASmoggies
>>55857665Suicune doesn't have Calm Mind in Gen 2 and there still exists Eggy + several other Boom Abusers. Not to mention Machamp, Heracross, Alakazam, and even Meggy can brute force it.
>>55857691Yes. I'll take my singleplayer tamagotchi game with a side of fries to go please.
>>55857670>But Lucario is staying in? Besides it's not like they can switch freely into Lucario eitherTyranitar isn't ever switching in on Lucario in the first place. It's got dozens of buddies that it likes to switch out to if someone ever throws out a Fighting type in front of it that isn't Keldeo.>+2 252 SpA Lucario Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 294-348 (97.6 - 115.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 297-349 (105.6 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKOLatios outspeeds too. 110 base speed vs 90 base speed. Hell, Latios can run Modest and still outspeed a Jolly Lucario with max EVs (319 speed vs 306 speed)
>>55856087>Cloyster got banned before LatiosWHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THE GEN 5 COMMUNITY.
>>55857751Lucario can just switch to Tyranitar and Pursuit kill Latios
>>55857754Rain hurts their feelings and Latios is the best Rain counter. Sand doesn't mind Latios because TTar is the perfect counter to it.
>>55857754They play the first game to be based on muttmerica filled with nigger apes. Of course they have screws loose.
>>55857764Obviously you ban both Latios and drizzle. Shit like Keldeo and Thundy-T should not be an issue.
>>55857764why do smoggies like t-tar so fucking much
>>55857773Because it keeps leftovers, psychics, and ghosts in check. Scarf TTar also checks a lot of mons.
>>55856087>want to go back and play gen 5 ou>can't because they keep banning shit 15 years laterthis reeks of trannies
>>55857773High skill ceiling and floor. It's hard to make good use of TTar because it damages your own Pokemon, but correct application of Sand is a valuable way of reducing the potency of stall. TTar is the only reason Gen 3 is not as stall-centred as Gen 2. Well, TTar and Spikes being 3 layers now. TSS basically killed any viability stall had in Gen 3 and kept the meta more focused on offense/balance. TTar also traps otherwise heinous threats like Lati@s, Alakazam, Gengar, Blacephalon, Azelf, and Mew that would all be teetering on the edge of Ubers without Pursuit trapping around. Dragapult would've been a lot more manageable in Gen 8 and 9 if TTar still had Pursuit since you could reliably check the fucker. Because TTar doesn't have Pursuit anymore, the only way to deal with Pult is to either run Wigglytuff or layer on a bunch of psuedo-checks and hope you cover whatever set Pult is running. GF releasing Dragapult the generation they removed Pursuit should be grounds for them all being turned into castratii. That's more heinous than the dexcut.
>>55857848Cloyster is one of the few post-gen bans there's been in all 8 past generations.
>>55857878>GF releasing Dragapult the generation they removed Pursuit should be grounds for them all being turned into castratii. That's more heinous than the dexcut.LOL
>>55856087Always loved this nigga, rip to the homie lol
>>55857979Not him, but FUCK ghosts. The type was already great even before the steel nerf. It did not need to lose one of its biggest counters.
>>55857888What are the others?
>>55857485Latias was originally uber when gen 4 ended in 2010 but got freed in 2019https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-shoddy-server-statistics-august-2010.78421/https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-latias-test-latias-is-now-ou.3643253/Jirachi is currently regarded as the most broken thing in gen 4 ou, but probably nothing will be done. Funny threads if you're curious:https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-ou-post-spl-xiii-survey-results-and-discussion.3702490/https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/freeze-clause.3702722/
Cloyster's shiny is a literal blue waffle.
>>55856087Why does this fucking website not load on iphone FUCK SMOGON
Gen 9 and its consequences have been a disaster for Smogon.I fucking hate how every fucking retarded cancer 98% of the time only happening because Finch is a butthurt retard is slowly trickling down to all the old gens completely homogenizing them and murdering their years, even decades, long identities.People played with Sleep Clause for two fucking decades and everyone was fine with sleep but now because Finch was too butthurt about Darkrai and went and got Sleep banned in Gen 9 now all the old gens wanna pretend Sleep is super duper ultra mega hyper the most broken shit ever and are "discussing" banning sleep too, despite all the (bullshit) reasons as to why Sleep got banned in Gen 9 not applying to any of them. And it's gotten more and more retarded the more I look around. Some niggers are genuinely arguing for banning every single move with a flinch chance is Gen 4 because now apparently it's too difficult to throw a Heatran or any bulky water in front a Jirachi like people have done for over a decade.Fucking ridiculous.I fucking hate neo-nu-Smogon so fucking much. Fuck Gen 9 and fuck Finch and them both for spreading their cancer to all the old gens too.
>>55858387I can't wait for their stall-loving asses to eventually decide Tyranitar needs to be suspected for Gen 3 OU. They're getting too eager for their own good with tampering and they no doubt want to poke the hornet's nest just to see if they can get away with it.
>>55856087Smogon is such a joke. I still remember when Garchomp was OUT worthy in DPP and these shitters got bullied so hard they started banning non-legendaries regularly since(only time this happened before was Wobuffet due to an oversight if both are holding leftovers in ADV)
>>55858387Wait, they banned sleep entirely in Gen 9?LMFAO, as if this generation couldn't get worse. Pokemon is truly well and dead.
>>55856100stop posting demonic images
>>55858418>pokenon is dead because of what an irrelevant fanfic discord council decides to doplay the game
>here’s your uber mon, bro
>>55856087Smogon has been a joke since the gen 7 Zygarde ban so
>>55857514The issue is that Cloyster despite being a broken matchup fish isn't actually the most relevant meta threat so your special Lucario will be deadweight most of the time.
>>55858683>Play SVLMFAO
>>55856202game was better with just about everything unbanned, yknow
>Cloyster is banned from fucking gen v>anons want to ban weather nextJust play a different gen instead of ruining one you're unable to understand, dumb faggots.
>>55858076Sleep in Gen 5Arena Trap in Gens 4 - 6Baton Pass in Gens 4 and 5
Smogon did nothing wrong.
>>55856087>banned to Ubers in OU.Huh
>>55856087Who knew that the mental unwellness of a few trannies could lead to such bizarre decisions. Thankfully I don't play the little game that the axe wound bearers like to promote to the unwell man children.
>>55858823How is it deadweight when it can ohko TTar and deal over 60% of damage to most of the top threats?
>>55856100I don't get the joke. Is it that you want to kill trans people?
>>55859641because it’ll be dead before it can deal over 60% of damage to the top threats. quit talking out of your ass and come back with your ass beat after trying to climb the ladder with lucario
>>55859668No it won't.
>>55859672quit. talking. out. of. your. ass. lucario is dogshit retard
>>55859641base 90 speed won’t get you anywhere
>>55859656>trans>peoplePick one.
>>55859641
>>55859676>>55859680>sub 1200 ELOtard so tilted he needs to throw a tantrum>>55859698Just switch in your own lando and you have their lando at -1 Atk dummy, alternatively just predict and use Ice Punch.
>>55859698
>>55859711>>55859709and also scizor outclasses lucario anyways
>>55859698>>55859711Why does this homosexual have lando and glissy ????
>>55859711>>55859716Weavile solos all of these.
>>55859716
>>55859723>landorus used mach punch!>*shitvile dead*
>>55859726
>>55859726>>55859711>>55859698>keeping your steel type vs ground typesAre you one of the retards who think TTar is bad because he dies to machop using low kick?
Lucariobros... we got too cocky
>>55859727Weavile outspeeds and ice shard kills lil bro.
>>55859730
>>55859735Landorus holds an orb and is bulky enuff to survive, lil nigger ape
>>55859741
>>55859716lucario wishes it could ohko with a bullet punch
>>55859742> 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 240 HP / 16 Def 30 IVs Landorus-Therian: 390-458 (102.9 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>>55859698>>55859711>>55859716>>55859726>>55859730>>55859741>>55859747LMFAO LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
>>55859698>>55859711>>55859716>>55859726>>55859730>>55859741>>55859747>>55859759man I forgot how fucking ugly this game looks
>>55859773It looks good
>>55859768your samefagging doesn't impress anyone, you realise that, right? And now that you bring scizor up, doewn't scizor survive a +2 icicle spear and 2hko with Bullet Punch? Moreso if they're not white herb. Banning cloyster was uncalled for.Unless you're going to do a 180 and say Scizor is "bad in OU".
>>55859733jobbercario
>>55859784lucariofag on suicide watch
>>55859799I'm not a Lucariofag, retard I just looked for an OU mon with a special priority move that could OHKO so it could always revenge kill.
>>55859805holy cope just admit you got assblasted after trying to ride lucario dick for so long until you got absolutely BTFO’d
>>55859816> absolutely BTFOdI'm the one providing calcs you just spammed dumb screenshots pretending it's Lucario alone, you yourself admitted that TTar wouldn't stay in on a close combat but you think Lucario would stay in on a ground/fighting move? I mean, it's obvious you're a retard considering you'd keep your Lando vs a Weavile.
>>55856087I'm happy if people enjoy Smogon Meta, but frankly, from what I read, the fact the bans depend on a bunch of terminally online "pro" Pokemon players and if they are in a good mood or not, that really undermines the whole thing.Also, are there that many people playing an artificial meta from 15 years ago?
>>55859760>Forgets Intimidateor>Genuinely things Landorus-T would stay in vs Weavile
>>55856154It threatens dragons and the old man on all fours with a poop tail, which is unacceptable to the average smogoloid
>>55860154The bans are voted on democratically. You don't have to be a "pro", you just have to prove your skill empirically by getting the prerequisites to vote (typically that involves creating a fresh new account and going 15 wins and 0 losses or 20 wins and 2 losses).If you can prove that you know what you're talking about by winning even at the upper end of the ladder, you're allowed to voice your opinion on whether something should be banned or not. Not every suspect test ends in a ban. Of the last 3 suspect tests in Gen 9 OU, 2 of them ended in no ban (Kyurem and Gouging Fire) while 1 ended in a ban (Volcarona).
>>55858878Ah yes, 5 Swift Swim, glorious. Kys
>>55859656joke?
>>55861512LOL
>>55857703>>GAME SHOULD BE DIFFERENT GAME UNGA BUNGAyes. cry more unovacuck.
>>55861482>The bans are voted on democraticallyexcept for when they aren’t
>>55859656The joke is that /Pol/tards are dangerous sociopath that should be jailed/killed.
>>55861646>Anyone I don't like needs to be killed or jailedIf only you knew what the word "irony" meant, but I guess they don't teach that in your public schools anymore, lmaobtw Trump is likely going to win this year, so try not to make your suicide too noisy for your neighbours, okay?
>>55861695LOL
>>55861482It's like 30 games minimum, 30 to 50 or more depending on some variables.
>>55858387>gen 1 must be played best of onemost retarded fucking move of all time, finch needs to stay the fuck in his lane or there will be dire consequences
>>55861695>i was merely pretending to fantasize about murdering people!
>>55861695Awww "liddle" chuddly wuddy thinks we can't see the hatred seeping through his fatty fingers as he slap them on his cumcrusted keyboard. Don't worry, I'm a normal person, I don't want anyone but bastards to get their just dessert, and simply enough all /Pol/tards are bastard. Dream well, Trump is gonna lose and kill himself just like you're gonna do!
>>55861621Typically the council avoids making quick bans for things that aren't blatantly overpowered. Why bother testing Flutter Mane or Iron Bundle when they're going to get a 90%+ ban rate? The issue is that the council has been a bit more... proactive with their quick bans, quick banning things like Volcarona (in Teal Mask) or Sleep when they should've been put up to a suspect test. The amount of things banned by suspect in Gen 9 eclipses the amount of quick bans by quite a bit.
>>55861646>>55859656>>55861512The joke is that Kingler is based. That's the joke.
>>55861790>it’s blatantly overpowered because…um…me and my 5 discord friends said soyep what a great format that deserves to be taken seriously over playing the actual game
>>55861596If you don't want to play a gen defined by weather wars, then play something that isn't Gen V. That's like trying to ban Normal types from Gen I or Snorlax from Gen II, you're trying to turn it into another gen.
>Compfaggotry Circus thread
>>55861785look buddy, I don't like trump either, but let's not pretend he has no chance when his only competition has been both literally and figuratively shitting the bed
>>55856087What happened to the philosophy of old gens being a snap shot?
>>55861922The philosophy has been altered. Pray Finch does not alter it further
>>55861863It was blatantly overpowered to anyone who played the format. In the 1 day Flutter Mane was legal it had already adapted to the one semi-counter it had in Scizor by using Tera Fire.
>>55862232That’s weird. I play the format and I don’t think either of those Pokemon are overpowered because I don’t piss my pants and instantly cry for things to be banned.
>>55861922Old gen players decided they wanted to be real metas too. RBY players "unfroze" OU allowing for Pokemon to drop from OU and creating UU and NU. GSC has mostly been untouched, and ADV only really banned Sand Veil, leaving Baton Pass and Arena Trap and everything else unchanged. DPP allowed Latias to drop from Ubers to OU which killed off Lucario and Infernape's viability, but aside from Arena Trap and Baton Pass being banned, and the Snow Cloak ban (RIP Froslass), nothing has changed all that much banwise.BW is the first old gen to specifically ban a Pokemon that was legal when the gen ended AFAIK. ADV accidentally banned Cacturne because it only had Sand Veil, and DPP accidentally banned Froslass because it only had Snow Cloak, but there's nothing they could do outside of a complex ban to keep them legal.
>>55862245>I play the formatpost proof then
>>55861918You have no hope thanks to the thousands of happy brown voters we're letting in :)
>>55862245I played S/V when it first came out and could immediately recognize certain Pokemon were entirely busted. Flutter Mane is a sidegrade to Mewtwo. You wouldn't allow Mewtwo in standard play so neither should you allow Flutter Mane.
>>55862381>I'm retarded and don't know how to hit Flutter Mane with physical moves
>>55862397>bro mega fug isn't broken, just hit it with draco meteor
>>55858838>the fanfic meta is dead? LOL NOT OFFICIAL IT SUCKS>huh? play VGC? LOL NO GAME SUCKSWhy are you in this thread if you don't care about competitive Pokemon?
>>55862422Compshitters should all perishPokemon will never be a real competitive game
>>55862397252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 174-205 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Palafin: 352-415 (103.2 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKOWhat physical attack? The strongest priority move in OU backed by 160 base Attack + STAB + Choice Band isn't enough to OHKO uninvested Flutter Mane while Flutter Mane OHKOs back 101% of the time with a 1% margin of error. The only thing that can OHKO Flutter is Scizor's Bullet Punch, and only if Flutter doesn't Tera.
>>55862380lmao wtf
>>55862397>>55862416>>55862443Motherfuckers on /vp/ would claim Eternatus Eternamax would be fine if you could actually use it, then claim Smogon only banned it because beats Stall teams.
>>55862443>I posted an irrelevant calc so that means it’s brokenwhy do campaignshitters do this so often?
>Pokemon has broken ability>This means it's type is good
>>55862422it really does genuinely suck total fucking dick and balls that the only options are jew controlled banfest or jumping through hoops to form a decent team for vgc without resorting to hacking pokemon inwould rather just speedrun at that point
>>55862610>IrreleventThe calcs are why it's broken. Flutter Mane has /just/ enough bulk that it can live most priority attacks and most neutral attacks from scarfers that could outspeed it.
>>55862443>>55862623Anon, not to be that guy but you got the wrong Palafin form252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 306-360 (121.9 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Palafin-Hero: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKODon't get me wrong, Flutter Mane is stupid bullshit but it's definitely far from perfect.What fags on here need to realize is that Pokemon is a team game and not a 1v1 game.Flutter Mane and other offensive Pokemon have their teammates to fall back on when in hot water so it's not as simple as "just hit them really hard bro".At the same time these Pokemon can come in and often get a KO for nearly free making a game 5v6 now, or 4v6, or what every huge advantage you would get by KOing Pokemon.
>>55862617Skill Link isn't necessarily broken. 125 base power Icicle Spear is still weaker than Hi Jump Kick and barely stronger than Brave Bird, Flare Blitz, Wave Crash, Close Combat, Super Power, Wood Hammer, and so on. You're basically wasting an ability to get one of those super powerful moves with no draw back, but the same could be accomplished with Rock Head + Flare Blitz/Wave Crash/Double Edge/etc. It's the move (Shell Smash) that makes it broken.
>>55862619Maybe stop whining about bans?
>>55862890stopped reading at 'maybe'you sound like a huge faggot
>havent browsed /vp/ in months>decide to visit>see cloyster is banned in omgon now it's been literally 14 years since I've played but isn't cloyster a complete cuck without being able to boost itself? I'm really remember it's needed a boost to be a potent threat.
>>55858878No it fucking wasn't. >>55857510Especially not in a metagame where you really can't afford not to slot very specific things to deal with the meta at largeIf you're using Lucario, especially on an HO or even Sand, you're giving up extremely valuable slotsAnd if it's Sash Cloyster with Hydro (Not very uncommon!), you lose ANYWAYS
>>55857670>But Lucario is staying in? Besides it's not like they can switch freely into Lucario eitherBetter hope that T-tar doesn't click Superpower on the switch or that you use CC because Aura sure as SHIT isn't killing ChopleTar>>55857764RAin is literally the worst it's ever been what the fuck are you on
>>55859641Hey you know what else can do that and also isn't outsped by every single Pokemon in the metagame?Terrakion
>>55859784>And now that you bring scizor up, doewn't scizor survive a +2 icicle spear and 2hko with Bullet Punch? Moreso if they're not white herb.It did deal with it right up until Cloyster started running Hydro Pump and blowing it away.
>>55862949Yeah, but there's a bunch of circumstances that make it real easy for it to boost, especially on the HO teams it's prevalent on Bring it in on a sack vs a Lando or some shit? You take 70 but you get that boost
How did Finch end up with so much power?Just how much dirt does he have in everyone else that his word has become law?
>>55863581>RAin is literally the worst it's ever been what the fuck are you onYeah because Latios is in the meta.
>>55857514This is why Pyroar was the #2 VGC mon during Flutter Mane's reign.
>>55857520>>55858823woah lucario magically stops working against everything else in the game if the opponent doesn't have flutter mane?
>>55864509Yes, through the magic of being a total shitmon that crumples to a stiff breeze.
>>55856087So why do this over banning King's Rock?
>>55864520>through the magic of being a total shitmonSounds like a skill issue.
>>55857691Until we go full DQM it's not that bad.
>>55859060Unfortunately, the people who still play Gen 5 are the ones who want these decisions.It's like how Gen 2 wants a meta with Snorlax with it, despite their many "excuses" in trying to convince people that Snolax is "the glue holding Gen 2 together". I'd be fine with Gen 2fagfs if they simply state "we don't want to play a meta without Snorlax" because they did exactly this multiple times in the past.
>>55864756Because King's Rock isn't the reason this time.
>>55858677Are you from the southeast United States where everything is a demon out to manipulate the penises of young Christian boys into vaginas to bring forth an occult power to nature, on behalf of the Jews?
>>55864760Slow frail mixed attackers be like that.
>No no you see these people who have been playing Gen 5 for over a decade at a high level are all wrong>I, who was still sperm when Gen 5 first released, have ultimate knowledge of this Pokemon’s counters because I used the online calculator to determine that this Pokemon can KO the Pokemon this autistic group wants to ban>No I did not look at the reasons behind the ban>No I did not actually look into how this counter would play out>No I did not consider how else this Pokemon could at all be useful other than beating 1 Pokemon in a game filled with several dozen Pokemon that are more viable than it>No I don’t play Gen 5 OU either/vp/ discussing competitive Pokemon is like Americans telling other people why other countries aren’t white
>>55867094>No no you see these people who have been playing Gen 5 for over a decade at a high level are all wrongThis but unironically.
>>55861695Bro.
>>55867098WRONG
>>55859656trans "people" should be kept alive as long as possible as they're tortured actually
IT'S OVER
>>55867484Based Smogon. Cloyster-fags are the worst.
>ice is the worst type bro that's why we have to keep banning every good ice type
>>55867990ice types are still dogshit btw
>>55867990This is a genuinely impressive meme, you really have to be keeping up with the "fanficshit" to be aware of all these lmfao.
>>55868041yawnfag is a tsun when it comes to smoggies... it all makes sense now
>>55868041>>55868035>>55868045He just wants (You)s. Don't feed the troll.
>>55868444>he’s a troll because I can’t actually refute his posts and it makes me assblasted
>>55868035Weavile has consistently been a top threat in nearly every metagame since it was introduced. Not to mention Cloyster, Mamoswine, Ninetales-A, and now even Articuno.
>>55856538>KANTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO privilege>yesChein Po?
>>55862443>scizor’s bullet punch>kingambit’s sucker punch
>>55867990>froslassthat's a deep cut, damn
>>55867098please hang yourself before infecting other people with your retardation campaignshitter
>>55869133You are the only person using this term.
>>55868901>ScizorUseless shitmon>KingambitIt doesn't OHKO until you have a couple of teammates dead. If you're down 2 Pokemon to take out 1 Flutter Mane and put yourself in a bad position to get revenge killed, you're in a very bad position. Oh, and Tera Fairy Flutter Mane straight up never gets OHKO'd, even if Kingambit has its entire team dead.>252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Flutter Mane: 156-184 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>>55869858>scizor doesn’t count because um…it just doesn’tand this is why you’ll always be bad at the gamecampaignshitters always obsess about these strange made up restrictions
So basically Cloyster got banned because NOW they realize mixed with HP Grass was always an option to bait and KO its common counters?I was around when they tested Kyu-B in OU in gen 5 and everyone ran purely physical sets on a monster with 120 SpAtk and a large special movepool, wondering why it wasn't that good (because it had no physical ice STAB back then, no shit), but towards the end of the generation a few users started to realize that it was probably a mistake but it was too late to change things.I wouldn't be surprised if Kyu-B is next to get the boot since it can do the same shit Cloyster could (handpick its checks, except it's more of a wallbreaker than an outright sweeper) with its mixed sets. And if that happens, prepare to see the ripple effect in other generations with popular mixed attackers like Infernape in DP.>>55868510>and now even Articuno.Oh? What's new about it?
>>55868035How many ice type bans do we need before we shift the general opinion from "worst type" to "maybe there are worse types"?
>>55870031All of themNow stfu liberal
>>55869911>>scizor doesn’t count because um…it just doesn’tIt doesn't count because it's a shitmon in Gen 9. Power creep has made Scizor irrelevant.
>>55870031Individual Pokemon do not make a type broken or weak. Dragon wasn't broken in Gen 5 just because there were tons of 600+ BST monsters like Garchomp, Latios, or Kyurem. Dragon was just an above average type. In the same vein, Ice is a tremendously shit type that is carried by a handful of standout broken Pokemon, most of which would be even better if they weren't Ice type.
>>55870135>Dragon wasn't broken in Gen 5it objectively wasno type should have non-resisted STAB against almost the entire type chart while ALSO having useful resists itself>Ice is a tremendously shit type that is carried by a handful of standout broken PokemonIce is what makes those Pokemon good. So no, evidently not.
>>55870143>Ice is what makes those Pokemon goodCalyrex-I has Lugia tier bulk with a no drawback 120 BP STAB coming off 165 Atk and has snowflake Moxie that also prevents berry consumption.Baxcalibur turns Ice’s Fire weakness into a deterrent with its Dragon typing and signature ability.Garmanitan has built in Choice Band off a 140 Atk statChien-Pao is frailer Zacian-H with arguably a better abilityIron Bundle is Flutter Mane with perfect STAB coverageIn 99% of cases all these Pokemon besides Garm will use a Tera Type that isn’t Ice and Garm can’t even use Tera.NONE of these Pokemon are good because they are Ice, they are good IN SPITE of being Ice type.
>>55870201>Calyrex-I has Lugia tier bulk with a no drawback 120 BP STAB coming off 165 Atk and has snowflake Moxie that also prevents berry consumptionYes, and Ice contributes to what makes it good since it has STAB on one of the best offensive types in the game.>Baxcalibur turns Ice’s Fire weakness into a deterrent with its Dragon typing and signature abilityYes, and Ice contributes to what makes it good since it has STAB on one of the best offensive types in the game on top of getting massive defense buffs from Ninetales.>Garmanitan has built in Choice Band off a 140 Atk statYes, and Ice contributes to what makes it good since it has STAB on one of the best offensive types in the game.>Chien-Pao is frailer Zacian-H with arguably a better abilityYes, and Ice contributes to what makes it good since it has STAB on one of the best offensive types in the game.>Iron Bundle is Flutter Mane with perfect STAB coverageYes, and it has that perfect STAB coverage because it's Ice-type with access to Freeze Dry.You're not very smart, are you?
>>55870201all of those would be worse as bug type or psychic type (assuming no other changes)
>NONE of these Pokemon are good because they are I-ACK!
>>55870135Ice STAB matters.Snow DEF boost matters.Access to exclusive or near-exclusive and highly useful ice-type moves such as Freeze-Dry, Ice Shard and Aurora Veils matters.A type isn't just a defensive profile, drill that into your skull.
>>55870201>Calyrex-I has Lugia tier bulk with a no drawback 120 BP STAB coming off 165 Atk and has snowflake Moxie that also prevents berry consumption.Take the ice-type and its signature move away and it's just a very mediocre psychic physical attacker that wouldn't even be decent in OU.>Baxcalibur turns Ice’s Fire weakness into a deterrent with its Dragon typing and signature ability.It's basically another Kyurem-B with slightly different movepool and ability. Icicle Spear and Ice Shard are extremely good moves.>Garmanitan has built in Choice Band off a 140 Atk statGorilla Tactics isn't that much stronger than Sheer Force and Ice STAB gives it perfect coverage that regular Darm simply lacks.>Chien-Pao is frailer Zacian-H with arguably a better abilityWith powerful offensive STABs. You could probably replace the ice typing with another decent offensive one and it would still be good, but I doubt it would be ubers if it was something like normal/bug or another dogshit offensive type.>Iron Bundle is Flutter Mane with perfect STAB coverageIf it was pure water (and without access to Freeze-Dry, an ice-exclusive move) it wouldn't be much better than shit like Inteleon.>In 99% of cases all these Pokemon besides Garm will use a Tera Type that isn’t Ice and Garm can’t even use Tera.And there will be mons like Regieleki who REALLY want to uce ice Tera because of the advantages it confers.>NONE of these Pokemon are good because they are Ice, they are good IN SPITE of being Ice type.Incorrect. Bax would be just another Haxorus, plus the other examples I gave you above.
>>55870217>Yes, and Ice contributes to what makes it good since it has STAB on one of the best offensive types in the game.>Yes, and Ice contributes to what makes it good since it has STAB on one of the best offensive types in the game on top of getting massive defense buffs from Ninetales.>Yes, and Ice contributes to what makes it good since it has STAB on one of the best offensive types in the game.>Yes, and Ice contributes to what makes it good since it has STAB on one of the best offensive types in the game.They are not part Ground>Yes, and it has that perfect STAB coverage because it's Ice-type with access to Freeze Dry.Iron Bundle isn’t part Ground/Flying with a special Ground type version of Thousand Arrows.>You're not very smart, are you?I could blow in your ear and you’d thank me for the refill>all of those would be worse as bug type or psychic type (assuming no other changes)debatableCalyrex-I would be worse if its STAB wasn’t replaced by Megahorn.Being Pure Psychic would for sure be better.Consider that Glastrier sucks ass and Calyrex-I is only good because of its high BP STAB options.Baxcalibur would for sure be better with Psychic because it still has Zen Headbutt and it would be way better defensively.Garm would frankly be broken with any typing. Bug gives it STAB U-turn and Psychic gives it STAB Zen Headbutt, but more importantly fixes its Stealth Rock issue.Chien-Pao would still have Psychic Fangs and an equally as bad defensive typing, so not much changes.Iron Bundle would be worse without a Freeze-Dry replacement.So yes, for the most part these Pokemon would be better with any other typing. You’d need to jump through hoops by claiming “Well its typing would change but it wouldn’t get any STAB moves to compensate >:(“.
>We need to ban Cloyster because it's unhealthy for the meta, and warps teambuilding around it!meanwhile, in fanfic meta land...>If your Gen 2 OU team can't handle Snorlax, it is garbage and unusuable>If your Gen 3 OU team can't handle Tyranitar, it is garbage and unusuable>If your Gen 5 OU team can't handle Politoed/Rain, it is garbage and unusuable>If your Gen 6 OU team can't handle Clefable, it is garbage and unusuable>If your Gen 7 OU team can't handle Toxapex, it is garbage and unusuable
>>55870370>Calyrex-I would be worse if its STAB wasn’t replaced by Megahorn.>Being Pure Psychic would for sure be better.>Consider that Glastrier sucks ass and Calyrex-I is only good because of its high BP STAB options.Calyrex has the perfect type, stats and movepool to be the best Trick Room user in the game, especially in combination with Weakness Policy since it has the bulk to take almost any SE move thrown at it.It's so good you can slap it on an otherwise conventional team with no other TR abuser and sweep half a team on its own.It didn't see usage before Calyrex-S was banned to AG only because of species clause, now it's considered one of the very best ubers.It's also very unpredictable with Leech Seed/Sub shenanigans or Choice Band.
>>55870390stall = goodoffense = badclown fanfic format = heckin valid
>>55870390>If your Gen 2 OU team can't handle Snorlax, it is garbage and unusuableJust use Marowak>If your Gen 3 OU team can't handle Tyranitar, it is garbage and unusuableThere are so many anti TTar options in Gen 3. Imagine complaining about objectively the most loose open format ever.>If your Gen 5 OU team can't handle Politoed/Rain, it is garbage and unusuableJust run another weather bro>If your Gen 6 OU team can't handle Clefable, it is garbage and unusuableLmao imagine getting stopped by Clefable>If your Gen 7 OU team can't handle Toxapex, it is garbage and unusuableLmao imagine getting stopped by Toxapex.
>>55870228Well yeah, assuming none of them learned strong Bug or Psychic moves to use as STAB they would be much worse. G-Darm would actually be better as a Bug type though. Its U-turn would be apocalyptic.
>>55870234>DarmG-Darm has a built in Choice Band. Regular Darm doesn't. The Ice type version literally hits 50% harder. >SandslashA-Sandslash has better bulk at the expense of its unused Special Attack stat. Steel type also makes it bulkier since it now has 8 resistances + an immunity instead of 2 resistance + an immunity. >NinetalesIf Kantonian Ninetales had a Sun version of Aurora Veil it would also be OU.
>>55870390What I got from BKC's video is that the actual problem is that gen 5 OU is filled with a lot of really broken stuff that requires a very specific team structure to handle, and this team structure is really weak to Cloyster, but you can't do anything about it because then you lose to all the other ridiculously broken things that are allowed.It's not so much being unable to handle Snorlax, it's more like, if Gen 2 had a Pokemon that automatically swept teams that were able to handle Snorlax and Zapdos. You'd still have to build your team to handle Snorlax and Zapdos, because otherwise your team would be terrible, but then you'd be in a bad spot against that hypothetical Pokemon, and you couldn't do a lot about it because then you'd lose your ability to handle Snorlax and Zapdos.
>>55870394Consider the following>Calyrex-Ice is now Calyrex-Fairy>Glacial Lance is now Fairy LanceCalyrex-I is now way better by a large margin.>b-but meme strats!You can still run weakness policy, but now the number of things that can OHKO is more limited and number of thing that does like 12% damage increases. Plus you can run more regular items now like Choice Band or Life Orb because Stealth Rock doesn’t cut into your bulk as much.
>>55870553Fairy isn’t as good offensively as Ice, so not really.
>>55870561Fairy is about the same as Ice offensively. It hits 3 types for SE damage while being resisted by 3 types, but all 3 types that resist it are weak to Ground. There also aren't a lot of viable Poison or Fire types running around so it's effectively just Steel holding off the Fairy carnage.
>>55870561>Fairy isn’t as good offensively as Ice, so not really.Fairy is better than Ice offensively.Everything that resists Fairy is weak to Ground and has less things resisting it. In fact 2 of types that resist Fairy also resist Ice, so you swap the Water (one of the best and most common types) and Ice resist (not that great but still a resist) for a Poison resist (which is weak to Ground and Psychic, 2 types Calyrex-I has for coverage).
Quickly, which would you rather have?>250/125/255/120/255/130 stat spread Pokemon w/Wonder Guard that also boosts offenses by 1.2xor>5/130/5/125/5/131 stat spread Pokemon w/a regular ability that boosts offenses by x1.21
>>55856945>successful crit shitshow.This often goes understated with Skill Link/Loaded Dice abusers.A 5-hit move has about 28% chance of scoring at least one crit, which often turns 2HKOs into OHKOs with minimal hazards.
>>55870495>G-Darm would actually be better as a Bug type though. Its U-turn would be apocalyptic.Bug is the most resisted type in the game and a U-Turn user weak to rocks isn't exactly ideal.We did the G-Darm thought experiment more than once and every time ice ends up being the best type for it because that ice STAB is what enables its mindgames to begin with, especially in ubers with ultra-tanky shit like Zygarde, Lugia and Giratina.
>>55870553You're not running WP on a fairy type lmao.Caly-Ice is already extremely difficult to OHKO and I'd rather be able to blow up ground and flying types rather than dark and fighting.
>>55870911The deal with G-Darm isn't its ability or type, it's the fact that due to concept reasons IT KEEPS FLARE FUCKING BLITZ DESPITE BEING AN ICE TYPE!There are some soft rules about expected coverage from certain types (like most fire types being unable to learn water and ice moves, and ice types mot having access to fire) but G-Darm managed to completely sidestep them thanks to its Zen Mode and the lore around it.
>>55870911Who cares about resistances when you have Choice Band, Gorilla Tactics, and STAB?You already have coverage to deal with every niche case like Zamazenta or Heatran.What matters more is the fact that being Ice means Darmanitan only has 5 times at most to come in with Stealth Rocks up as an Ice type (more realistically 2-3 times), and at least with Bug has good resistances.
>>55870911U-turn was G-Darm's most used move because it would commonly pivot in and out until it was positioned just right to pick up more KOs. Bug type G-Darm gets a clean 3HKO on Lugia of all Pokemon (after Multiscale drops) with U-turn.252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Lugia: 108-127 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
>>55870561Ice is de facto SE against water on the special side given how many special ice attackers (and even things like Mamo and Bax if for some reason they want to bait and hurt water types without using Tera Blast) learn Freeze-Dry.Only one mon learns Thousand Arrows so it's not nearly as representative for ground types as FD is for ice.This makes it overall the best offensive type in the game now that on one side it has 5 SE and 3 resistances, and it now has at least decent defensive utility by virtue of its type alone since Freeze-Dry users can somewhat safely switch into predicted ice moves from water types and threaten back with FD.It's one of the main reasons Kyurem got banned last gen and narrowly escaped the ban in SV.
>>55871414All Pokemon crossed out are physical attackers.
>"if an ice type gets banned to ubers it's never because of the benefits of its type but because of literally everything else"Yeah ok if you want to go by that rationale more power to you.However one thing is certain: Cloyster of all things getting the boot lowers the bar.It's not a box legendary, pseudo or a regular legendary (so no high BST), it doesn't have any special snowflake ability (GDarm) or signature move, all of its stats are shit aside from DEF so it's not minmaxed like Pao or Bundle. It's just a pretty unremarkable mon whose only two special things are Shell Smash and STAB Skill Link Icicle Spear, and calling either of them special is a stretch.At least this can put to the rest the notion that only legendaries or minmaxed ice types can be considered uber material.
>>55859656The joke is that he's tranny obsessed.
Did they just admit that King's Rock was never the problem but Cloyster itself was?Why didn't they ban Cloyster back then instead of banning KR in every gen after 4?
>>55871490No I'm not
>>55865102what's wrong with DQM?
>>55859773yeah thats why you're not supposed to stretch it out 5x larger than its native resolution
>>55871550that’s weird, I can do that with the 3DS games and they still look fine
>>55867990is the "ice type is bad" camp really coming from smogon though, or just shitty YouTubers shitting out the same opinion over and over
>>55871556What a useless benefit.
>>55870390you'll always have to account for the top mons. Thats not what warping teambuilding means.
>>55871562Ice isn't a good type, but too many people overstate how bad it is. Ice as a type got more indirect buffs from moves, abilities and weather related changes rather than a direct type chart change too, so people just look at the type chart. Which is fair in a way, ice types are horrendous defensively and it feels like they're holed into a box where they either need to be fast and frail, or have obscene stats all around to work.Really, if any type is the worst, it's bug. It's atrocious offensively, its defensive aspects are awkward due to various reasons(Bug also being resisted by fighting, both fighting and ground types often carrying rock moves, can't switch into Psychic and Dark which they're SE against due to no resist), the very few niche aspects it has like webs or QD are rare and mostly locked to shitmons.
>>55871562It’s coming from people who aren’t disingenuous and argue shit like Sheer Cold (not the only OHKO move banned) and Moody (not the only Moody user and far from the best user) is because the Ice typing is good.
>>55857542Gen 5 has the weather wars and absurd powercreep of gen 5 to keep it distinct from 4.Gen 8 is the real identityless gen, since dynamax was banned and most of the new gen 8 mons were pretty shit, it just feels like playing 6 or 7 minus megas and z-moves and plus Dragapult.
>>55867990Pheromosa, Genesect, and Volcarona are banned. Is bug good now?
Water-Ice is not a bad typeOf course, Pokemon are much more than just types.And the utility of a given type depends on the context of the metagame at hand.On an individual pokemon basis, having good moves to utilize your stabs matters too.Mathematically, ice offers less defensive utility than any other type, but it is quite good offensively.If ya'll type autists wanted to see real-world examples of "Would a given pokemon prefer to be another type" you might check out the camomons OM.
>>55871540The speed stat analogue in DQM is more of a suggestion than hard fact and the best strategy is to stack your team with high-risk high-reward dudes where any one of them being able to pull off their gimmick is an insta-win.
>>55872070Are those mons representative of the type as a whole? Bug is THE shitmon type.Ice types usually do have good stats and coverage, but since speed matters so much and only few ice types are fast, they don't work quite well in practice, unless they have excellent stats in every other category.Cloyster got banned simply because of a good setup move and strong STAB, everything else about it being unremarkable. But that STAB is ice, I doubt it would have been banned if it was grass or bug.
>>55872070>shitmon in the actual game where they don't have the crutch of everything better than them being banned>shitmon in the actual game where they don't have the crutch of everything better than them being banned>shitmon in the actual game where they don't have the crutch of everything better than them being bannedno
>>55856087I remember watching that boy Rykard3 drop a set and on this oyster back in the day and I knew it was demon then, surprised it took this long though.
>>55871472Aboma, Regice, Frosmoth, Arceus-Ice and Rotom-F have grass/electric coverage so they can do without Freeze-Dry.But overall that move is almost ubiquitous among ice special attackers so it should definitely be kept into account when considering the ice vs water matchup.
>>55859656>peopleUm, sweetie... No
>>55871488>It's just a pretty unremarkable mon whose only two special things are Shell Smash and STAB Skill Link Icicle Spear, and calling either of them special is a stretch.Funny how Cloyster ended up being the first Shell Smash user banned to ubers, 15 years later.SS IS an amazing move but everything that learns it has issues such as low speed, inaccurate moves or imperfect coverage.The realization that Cloyster CAN run Hidden Power to deal with checks pushed it beyond the line. Had smogonites experimented with it more instead of running cookie-cutter Sash/Herb sets it would have been banned back during the BW era, and the King's Rock ban would have never happened.This is similar to how Clefable went from off the radar to OU staple in earlier metagames because people realized that even without the Fairy typing it does have an incredible movepool, abilities and acceptable stats.
>>55856087why
>>55874718Turns out BW Cloyster was always good, people just didn't use it to its full potential.
>>55874718In a game with hundreds of characters you can't expect people to experiment with every single one of them, people are far more likely to just use the blatantly obvious good things and turn their brains off.
>>55874844>an ice type Shell Smasher with multi-hit 125 BP STAB and a massive DEF stat that allows many setup opportunities Why wasn't this thing considered blatantly good right from the start? Because of the ice type stigma?
>>55874893Yes, it being ice just made people turn their brains off.
>>55857590Please God, give this man the ability to read.
>>55859101Arena trap was actually only DPP OU. Dug, with arena trap, is legal in DPP UU.
>>55875626Honestly never really looked at Lucario's stat spread before, what the fuck were they thinking?
>>55875656No clue anon. Especially when Infernape is going to be on around a third of all player's teams, Lucario has a baffling statline.
>>55875626>pokemon fan>reading comprehension pick one.
>>55874893It was already considered good (mostly being carried by Water part).The issue is that after years people realized how much of a match-up fish it was and how it could easily cheese best of 1 tournaments.
>>55875656SFMA. Funny how /vp/ shits all over that spread but never brings up the poster boy for it.
>>55875726>mostly being carried by Water partI wouldn't say so. Some sets don't even run water STAB at all while Spear is 100% mandatory.Defensively it removes the Steel Weakness which is great, but given Cloyster's lopsided defensive profile it almost always attracts special attackers that can OHKO it with either STAB or coverage. I would say Ice typing contributes more to its viability, otherwise it would be a worse Barbaracle.
Almost makes me want to experiment with Cloyster in SV OU.Wouldn't it be even better with Tera?Would be funny if we got it banned kek.
>>55875892Kingambit and Skeledirge exists so it’d be pretty bad.
>>55875744Without the water typing, a lot of opritunities to set up are gone. It goes from being able to reliably tank 1 Fire attack on the physical side and plenty of Water or Ice attacks, to being ouright OHKO’d or at dangerously low health.252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 109-129 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Cloyster: 218-258 (90.4 - 107%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 97-115 (40.2 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Cloyster: 194-230 (80.4 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKOIt’s Water STAB is also why it doesn’t get hardwalled by bulkier Steel types, especially when you use Hydro Pump for physically bulky Steel types.
>>55875948Keep in mind that Cloyster is also perfectly viable in sun with HP Fire.It's literally a mirror of Volcarona, hence these two got suspected together.
>>5587565690 speed was good in Gen 4. By Gen 5, 97+ was the new benchmark. In Gen 9, 110+ is the benchmark for good.
>>55875687Lucario has an even better movepool than Infernape and hits noticeably harder. Funnily enough, Infernape has also fallen off in Gen 4. It's fallen off to the point where the DPP playerbase considers Empoleon the better starter.
>>55875892Kingambit and Raging Bolt make that pointless. Dondozo also shits all over Cloyster. There are better end game cleaners, like Dragonite, Iron Valiant, Gouging Fire, and Zamazenta.
>>55874893Stealth Rocks are incredibly hard to remove in Gen 5. Smogon had to make a complex ban for Excadrill just so there was one (ONE) viable Rapid Spinner in the tier that didn't lose to Jellicent.
>>55875892Powercreep's made Cloyster too niche to function in OU. Your Pokemon needs to be able to hit extremely hard WITHOUT boosts in order to leave a prominent impression on the meta courtesy of OU having three key Unaware mons (Skeledirge, Clodsire and Dondozo).
>>55875656It's decent spread, it hits strong in both sides and has above average speed (for its gen). Funnily, Mega Lucario got a meme 112 base speed which is dishonest as fuck
>>55875656>"kids are too retarded to understand the physical/special split, let's just give it sorta good values for both stats" starter syndrome, basically. it has to have decent values everywhere so it's not dead weight on your in-game team, meaning that it's struggling to find a niche in competitive teams.
Don't stick your dick near a cloyster, it'll rip your dick off.
>>55861785>I'm a normal personnah you're a troon
>>55876237Set up sweepers are both still very viable and very powerful in the current meta, but they're all more threatening than Cloyster.
>>55876275Yeah, because they have better moves, abilities and stat spreads geared towards getting rid of Unaware problems. Skill Link used to be an extremely good ability, but now you need an ability that's effectively five useful effects in one and/or is able to fundamentally ignore a key mechanic or two.
>>55876209wait what the fuck? scizor was like A+ tier last time i checked
>>55876298It's still good, just outclassed heavily by Jirachi. Why run Scizor as your bulky Steel type pivot when Jirachi does the same thing while being bulkier and faster? Sure, Scizor hits harder and has priority, but Jirachi resists Stealth Rocks and will win 1v1 against anything that is either slower than it or not immune to paralysis. Oh, and Jirachi has Fire Punch to deal with Scizor.
>>55876331>Why run Scizor as your bulky Steel type pivot when Jirachi does the same thing while being bulkier and faster?It has Bullet Punch, Roost, only 1 weakness, and tons of moves Jirachi lacks.
>>55867990>>55869114What the fuck did Froslass do? She's one of my favorite pokemon. When did this happen? Why?
>>55876363>and tons of moves Jirachi lacks.The reverse is not only true, but Jirachi has an even larger move pool.
>>55876393Snow Cloak was banned and Froslass doesn't have any other abilities.
>>55876404Why don't those retarded faggots at smogon just ban every single attack that has a % chance to cause any secondary effect?
>>55874540stats aren't types you fucking retard
>>55876409They DO want to ban Jirachi actually
>>55876409They probably would if they could. I'm sure if they were in charge they'd probably switch from a % chance to a "charge" system. You have 10 charges, and when you hit 10 your Pokemon gets status'd. Flamethrower would add 1 charge, Scald would add 3, Fire Blast would add 2, and etc.
>>55876409Because then you'd wind up with one of two outcomes due to the nature of critical hits, which are inherently RNG and often play a massive role in deciding the outcome of a battle.>all abilities except Shell Armor are banned. this now means the only Pokemon that are allowed are Cloyster, Lapras, Kingler, Omastar, Crawdaunt and Clamperl>all moves except Seismic Toss and Night Shade are banned. this means you can only use Pokemon who can use those moves
>>55876439Why doesn't omgon just ban critical hits too? It fits their philosophy.
>>55876442Crits are necessary to break past Iron Defense sweepers.
So if smogon cares so much about the sanctity of balancing 10 year old formats, how come they haven't banned Landorus yet?
>>55876762Landorus-I is banned in every generation.
>>55876782Now do Landorus-T.
>>55876793Landorus-T isn't broken.
>>55876804Hi Finch.
>>55876793defensive stalwarts are hard to get banned, they need to be really oppressive ala gen6 mega sableye stall to be banned and even then it took until the last day of ORAS for it to get the bootmostly boils down to broken offensive mons being much easier to pinpoint and ban when comparing them to seemingly broken defensive mons
>>55876828tl;dr smogon loves stall
>>55876833Lando-T isn't stall
>>55877004Then there's no problem banning that cancerous piece of shit.
>>55877006He's not broken.
>>55877014he's overcentralizing
>>55877014Council member I take it?
>Pokemon board >Everyone talks about trannies No one wants to read about your fetishes
>>55877018In what way does the existence of Lando-T force your building to change?
>>55877032>90% of Pokemon are irrelevant due to Lando + Incelneroar
>>55877025trans-coded post
>>55877044He's not broken.
>>55877050keep parroting that and ignoring what I actually you fucking chimp. God you people deserve to be killed.
>>55877054Landorus-T isn't broken.
HES NOT BROKEN GOD I SWEAR HES NOT BROKEN EVERY OTHER POKEMON IS JUST IRRELEVANT DUE TO HIM AND HE HAS TO BE ON EVERY TEAM BUT HES NOT BROKEN SO ITS OK ARE YOU DUCKING LISTENING HES NOT BROKEN I SWEAR TO GOD IM GOING TO SHIT MYSELf IF YOU SAY HES BROKEN ITS NOT OKAY HES MY SPECIAL LITTLE BABY BOY
>>55877044doubles are pretty annoying with intimidate spam yeah
>>55877067Landorus-T isn't broken.
>>55877087Toxapex isn't a fire type.
>>55877044Incineroar is an NU shitmon homeboy. Landorus-T isn't invalidating anything besides Electric types with poor coverage like Regieleki.
>>55877099>on 100% of teams>but he's irrelevant
>>55877067Landorus-T is just a good pivot. He's not making other Pokemon irrelevant. Gluemons are not ruining your bro-mon.
>>55877097>>55877106He still isn't broken.
>>55877106Landorus-T never broke 50% usage. And even if he was nearing 80% he still wouldn't be broken. Tauros, Snorlax, and Tyranitar have reached that usage rate in Gens 1, 2, and 3.
>>55877099>Incineroar is an NU shitmon homeboy.top 5 usage in VGC.. Try again
>smogon thread>turns into landorus-t internet defense force
>>55877125LANDO ISNT BROKEN HE IS MY CHRIST AND URSHIFU IS MY GOD
If Landorus-T isn't broken then how come you have people coming out of the woodwork to vehemently defend him whenever anyone criticizes him?
He's not broken.
>>55877207i keep saying as the tears stream down my face
>>55877120VGCissies don't know how to play real Pokemon (singles) so I don't care.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HE MADE A THREAD BECAUSE HE WAS SO BUTTHURT
Cloyster is OU by usage on gen 6 ladder right now lmao. King's rock isn't banned in 6 or 7 fwiw. https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-04/gen6ou-1760.txtCofagrigus too.Tier shifts are of course frozen after the generation ends. Only changes that happen after are bans.I'm sure there are examples of this in other gens too, I just looked at gen 6 to see how cloyster was faring there. gastrodon and seismitoad and reuniclus receiving some notable usage as well.
>>55877044Which Pokemon become irrelevant because of Lando? Name them.
>>55877499>reuniclusjelly baby's always been a bit of a sleeper mon. there were quite a few times during gens 6-8 where it was OU by usage in high ladder but low ladder never caught on enough for it to rise.
>>55876409Weather abilities are permanent prior to Gen 6.If you're suddenly unable to clear the weather, your most accurate VIABLE moves no one uses Shock Wave, deal with it become Stone Miss at best.
>>55877044>Incelneroardoublesfag spotted, opinion discarded
>>55876762Role compressionWhen you have to have an "answer" for hundreds of Pokemon and thousands of team comps when you only have 6 slots and 24 move options, turns out people will gravitate toward mons that can fufill a lot of roles.
>>55877625Sounds broken, like it's doing too much for one pokemon.
>>55877630That's just the nature of games when characters don't start on an even playing field and you cna choose characters with unique stats, abilities, and moves.Funny enough, the only time Lando-T was considered the "best" Pokemon in Smogon OU is in Gen 7, and even then it competes with three other Pokemon for that spot.
>>55877630You need it to do a lot since otherwise there are too many Pokemon that become a problem. Anything with overpowering Electric or Ground type STABs become a lot harder to deal with. Zeraora is a menace without Lando around to check it. Regieleki probably would've been banned in Gen 8 if not for Lando being everywhere.
>>55877834If there are other overpowered problems then get rid of them? Counters don't justify broken things.
/vp/ niggas really be like "omgon bans everything, they're so stupid" and "omgon please ban lando and like 20 other mons" in the same breathniggas be wack
>>55877855>>55877630It's not broken.
>>55877547Reuni gets banned from BW next.
>>55878055Will they ban Whimsicott from BW OU?
>>55856087i feel there were some unironically creative cloyster teams. but i guess i can see why they would vote to ban it. it will be interesting to see if reuniclus and volcarona actually follow. also lol @ all the seething nugen fags stinking up the /unova/ thread as usualnever change, /vp/i only sometimes wish there was a bw ubers ladder up, same for all past gens ubers..
>>55876413Doesn't change the fact that most bug types are shit precisely because of low overall stats, while most ice types would just need a speed increase to go from PU to OU.
>>55876409They did a "no hax" pet meta back then. Everything with 100% acc and no %-based secondary effects. Was HORRIBLY dull and died out very quickly. RNG is necessary to keep things interesting.
>>55877499It's a matter of time before they ban KR in every post-4 generation.
>>55876219Psychic Terrain can stop priority from Bolt and Gambit.Mixed Tera Electric/Grass can deal with Dozo.And of course Ninetales-A makes it basically unbreakable from the physical side and barely decent from the special one.The question is "would a tailor-made team for Cloyster be overall viable in OU?".I think we should experiment a bit before throwing the towel.
