I remember playing SoulSilver when I was much, much younger.I had just finished getting my entire team in White, my first Pokemon game ever, to level 100 because I thought I was the only one who had ever thought of doing that, so I was a genius and my brother and sister could never beat me. I didn't know HGSS came out before BW, because I found my copy of SS long after playing White.I had a terrible experience with SoulSilver. Like, really bad. I thought it was slow, boring, no reusable TMs sucked, and it had no Pokemon I knew of and all of them looked less cool than those in White. I ended up dropping the game before the 4th gym. This unpleasant feeling stuck with me for a very longNow for the kicker. I recently came back to my old save file, and found out that the reason 7 year old me stopped playing was because I was stuck at Sudowoodo and didn't understand how to get past. I had been stuck in the beginning areas of the game and didn't know how to get further into the actual game. Embarassed at my past self, I decided to go on a redemption arc, starting over and ACTUALLY playing the game, giving it the real chance it had deserved for so long.Guess what. I still didn't enjoy it all that much. I did almost everything most casual players would do, the League, Kanto, Red battle, legendary catching. And yet, it felt dull. The game was still slow af due to gen 4's performance issues, the story was one of the least interesting of the games I had played in the series, and some of the mechanics like the non reusable TMs and HM spam made some parts of the game incredibly frustrating.
>>56107979The two regions are kinda half baked, leaving both of them feeling a bit lacking. Follow Pokemon are nice, but aren't really a make or break feature. . Not having all of the Johto mons available in Johto is actually a huge knock against the game. They had that issue in GSC, and they could have just completely fixed it in HGSS instead of only slightly modifying what can be found in Johto. Fighting Red as the final boss would be cool if he wasn't 25 levels stronger than Blue's ace and 30 levels stronger than the wild Pokemon you battle to grind.As a player who started from gen 5, the Red fight was nothing special, as I hadn't played as him in RBY or FRLG, and I felt like it was massively overrated. Obviously, it had many great things going for it, like the music, environments, battle frontier and pokethlon were a nice change of pace, but my experience overall was mid.
>>56107979>Zoomtard got filteredKek, every single time.
>>56107980>The two regions are kinda half baked, leaving both of them feeling a bit lacking.hence Game Freak never having multiple regions in a game again >Not having all of the Johto mons available in Johto is actually a huge knock against the gamUnova was made to fix this, but Genwunnwers complained
>>56107998What part of the game is fun if I’m not a zoomer?
>>56107979k
>>56108021mostly the same things that make other Pokemon games fun. catching, raising and battling Pokemon. exploring the world. but you have to understand that Johto was made with a very different design philosophy to the rest of the Pokemon games. yes, the core gameplay loop and major appeal are the same. but they are much slower paced games that are almost designed to be engaged with more like a simulation game than the rpg formula that was established from Gen 3 onwards. if you go into it expecting the typical Pokemon experience where you just blast through a nicely little contained story and get the credits, you might be disappointed. it's a type of game where you play a little bit at a time over a long period. that's why there's so many time gated mechanics. you can pick it up for just like half an hour a day and find something unique to do based on the time and day of the week, like a gym rematch or the bug catching contest, etc.in regards to other things you mentioned in your post>the story was one of the least interesting of the gamesthat's because there barely is a story, and frankly I consider that one of Johto's strengths. I never liked Gamefreak's storytelling and when they try to do bigger plots like in BW, it falls flat for me. instead of having a plot, Johto relies on worldbuilding, and to me that's much more effective. it feels like you are just part of a bigger, living world, and not the main character of the universe. and that vibe is a big part of the appeal. cont.
>>56108021>some of the mechanics like the non reusable TMs and HM spamthis is just the nature of evolving QoL in a series, if you started with BW and were accustomed to its QoL then of course you're going to have friction going backwards. that's valid to feel that way, BW were a big step up in terms of QoL, I'll give you that. but to people who grew up with the older games, I think that stuff just isn't much of a hindrance cause we're used to it. so this is pretty much a generational divide. you're going to find that going backwards in any game series you will have the issue of diminishing QoL. you either accept it or don’t. shrug. >it had no Pokemon I knew of and all of them looked less cool than those in Whiteagain, just a generational thing. we all felt the same about the Pokemon in White vs the Pokemon from our childhood.>Not having all of the Johto mons available in Johto is actually a huge knock against the gamemeh. it’s a valid criticism but it’s just not a dealbreaker for me. overall a lot of their love is probably nostalgia, I will admit. but I still love playing them, I just love the region and get immersed into it like no other. and you really do have to judge them from the context that they were developed explicitly as a sequel to Kanto and that this was the first region they made besides Kanto and just didn’t have a firm concept of what the series was yet. the modern formula didn’t really start to take hold until Gen 3 which established new regions as basically a soft reboot instead of a sequel. a lot of the criticisms of Johto stem from that. it doesn’t mean they’re not valid criticisms, I’m not gonna force you to like the games. but it’s unfair to judge them based on the standards set by later games and not what they were actually attempting at the time, which was a straight up sequel.
Coming in to say that TM reusability isn't a simple "QoL" thing but directly affects the balancing of the game. Pre-Gen 5 they could give you much stronger moves as TMs, like Thunderbolt from Surge and Shadow Ball from Morty, but they have to hold back from this kind of thing starting with BW because it would be too overpowered. In Platinum, you can get two Return TMs and an Earthquake TM before even the third gym, and if you just made TMs infinite, it would be totally retarded.TM reusability is not QoL or a direct improvement, just different design.
>>56108194It is a direct improvement because the campaign is balanced like absolute dogshit regardless and it does nothing but save pointless grinding for PvP and battle facilities. There’s no reason TMs shouldn’t be permanent.
>>56108211>the campaign is balanced like absolute dogshitFor HGSS yes, but not for every game this applies to>There’s no reason TMs shouldn’t be permanent.Making powerful moves available early on is fun and they are balanced by TMs being single use
>>56107979>I still didn't enjoy it all that much. I did almost everything most casual players would do, the League, Kanto, Red battle, legendary catching. And yet, it felt dullWho was forcing you to play this game?
>>56108157>Johto relies on worldbuilding, and to me that's much more effectivethis.a little out of the way mystery like the Ruins of Alph is 100x more effective storytelling than the hamfisted schlock of BW onwards. when OP says "boring story", all I hear is "the game didn't stop me every 5 feet for an exposition dump". sorry it doesn't hold your hand enough, bort.
>>56108157>Johto relies on empty, useless dungeons with pointless shitmons insidesad
>>56108220>but not for every game this applies toYes for every game it applies to. I can't think of a single game that was balanced better by not having permanent TMs.
>>56108273Here is the list then:RedGreenBlueYellowRubySapphireFireRedLeafGreenEmeraldDiamondPearlPlatinum
>>56108278Explain why it’s somehow ok for those games to have limited TMs but not Johto for some reason, espailly since one of the reasons people hate Johto is how easy the gyms allegedly are, meaning unlimited TMs would just make them easier
>>56108305Johto is very poorly designed front and back so it is difficult to rate any particular aspect of it as being positive to the balancing. It would still be bad no matter how the TMs worked.I'm not saying the TMs should be made infinite for Johto games instead, but it needs a much more extensive treatment than simply flipping a switch on or off.
>>56108320
>>56108278None of those games were balanced better by having TMs not be permanent.
>>56108332
>>56108343Incorrect. Besides the Sinnoh Earthquake and Return examples, Kanto notably provides you with the extremely powerful Dig and Thunderbolt TMs early in the game. An argument can be made that Dig is too powerful even with single-use already.
>>56108355>Incorrect. Besides the Sinnoh Earthquake and Return examples>Kanto notably provides you with the extremely powerful Dig and Thunderbolt TMs early in the gameNothing about these make the balance of the game better. The fact that I can use them on one Pokemon already breaks the game equally as much as if I could use them on 6+ Pokemon.
>>56108367Self-evidently incorrect statement; having more of a strong move is obviously more helpful than only having one of it. There are many patches that make TMs reusable in past games and the effect on game balance is immediately palpable.
>>56108380> having more of a strong move is obviously more helpful No it isn’t. The vast majority of the game is 1v1 battles, and with no exp share the rest of your party is already deadweight. You’re already breaking the game with one party member regardless.
>>56108413A hypothetical solo playthrough is of no concern to me, as I play like an adult with a full team, and the game is designed with this in mind. Cheese strats are possible to allow little children to beat the game, and ignore the vast majority of mechanics one way or the other.
>>56108428>I-I HANDICAP MYSELF ON PURPOSE!!ok then you can handicap yourself further and simply choose not to use permanent TMs on multiple pokemon. Problem solved.
>>56108458I occasionally have to do that when I play certain patches that include unsolicited TM reusability, but from Gen 5 onwards the game is designed around infinite TMs, so there is no problem. The mechanics are already as I want them, you are the one unsatisfied.
>>56108466I’m glad we agree none of the games are balanced better by not having permanent TMs.
>>56108476Another non sequitur. What is your first language, if I may ask?
>>56108466>but from Gen 5 onwards the game is designed around infinite TMs, so there is no problem.sun and moon absolutely botch the handling of infinite tms
>>56108478You admitted yourself you handicap yourself to pretend the games are hard. So clearly the games aren’t balanced around temporary TMs. What is your first language, if I may ask?
>>56108512Possibly, I only played Gen 7 once when it first came out and never since, so I'm not too familiar with it.>>56108513I do not "handicap" myself; I simply play the intended way for a most enjoyable experience. After all, I play video games to have fun, not to abuse all technicalities to prove a point.My first language is German.
>>56108525>I simply play the intended way Source?
>>56108541It is known.
>>56108541NPCs frequently tell you to catch more Pokémon, and stress the importance of building a well-rounded team. While it is true that focusing all exp into a single Pokémon will break the game, this is an unfulfilling crutch, and results in a shallow experience. It remains possible only so 6 year olds do not get frustrated.
>>56108546Concession accepted.>>56108565>NPCs frequently tell you to catch more Pokémon, and stress the importance of building a well-rounded teamCatching Pokemon != training them evenlyWell-rounded team != bad handicapped team
>>56108581Training Pokémon evenly is the intended gameflow, as demonstrated for example by the rival teams, which follow that pattern.You are hung up on the term "handicap", and if you will never drop it, I suppose it is acceptable. It is a "handicap" that the devs expect and design the game around, so it is fun to play that way.Mind you that in most RPGs, the absolute most optimal way to play and the intended, fun way usually diverge a lot.
>>56107980>Not having all of the Johto mons available in Johto is actually a huge knock against the game. They had that issue in GSC, and they could have just completely fixed it All your other complaints are fluff that no one cares about or things all Pokemon does, but this is a fair point. Fans absolutely wanted Johto Pokemon to be more common in Johto in GSC. HGSS made some change with some missing Gen 2 pokwmon being default Safari encounters of being added to new Johto areas, but they could have done more. (and Pokewalker techinially helps). But they should hae done more. Not using Crytal's encounter table led to missing out on early game Teddirursa and Phanphy, and Sneasel being locked to Kanto. Also Houndoom is still post game for no reason.Game Freak obviously knew that people hated how much Johto leaned on Kanto Pokemon, since they explicated state that's the reason they made Gen 3 a reboot so I don't know why they didn't do more to fix in in HGSS.
>>56107979>>56107980The Johto games are the worst of the first 4 regions. Killed Pokemania and almost killed the whole franchise.
all they had to do was put sneedel houundor in johto, not make the safari an obtuse retarded mandatory 3hour wait, fix the team compositions of the gyms, have reliable rematch system, and raise the levels of the wildlife encountersbut they didn’t so it’s a shitty remake of very flawed games desu
>>56108581If catching Pokemon isn't the intended gameplay, why are you allowed to do it? If using more than one Pokemon isn't the intended gameplay, why does almost every trainer and a multitude of spin-off material imply it's normal? Hell, the trainers usually have Pokemon around the same level, which would imply that's the intended way to play. We could go even further to the fact that many official tournaments, battle facilitie, and online modes specifically want your team at or around a certain level (although this is often a level cap at 50), which implies that's what the developers base the balance around that sort of thing. It seems to me overleveling your starter is an unintended game design element, is all. It's like grinding to level 100 before the postgame/endgame in other JRPGs, you can do it but I will compare you to Ulillillia,
>>56108757Why are you taking teambuilding advice from generic NPCs designed only to lose to you
>>56108757>although this is often a level cap at 50That's because 50 is about the endgame level of a main playthrough, though the other guy will claim the real endgame level is about 80 because of his playstyle
>>56108705*first 5
>>56108779I mean, if you want to count Orre then that's your prerogative
>>56108787dont be silly johtimmy
>>56108705>zoomzoom don't realize pokemania was alive and well in gen 2
>>56107980>Not having all of the Johto mons available in Johto is actually a huge knock against the gamWhy though.In the context of 1999, having new Pokemon to be found all the way to the final parts of the game was an awesome feeling. It felt there was so much to discover for a Gameboy game. But of course mongoloid iPad zoomers with their burnt endorphin receptors like you would never get this.
>>56108705Nice cover up, Hoennfag. Actual OG Pokefans actually remember the original dexcut of the GBA era was the beginning of the end for Pokemon
>>56108998Objectively speaking, what do you get out of encountering an underlevelled Houndour on a random route in Kanto, even as a child? I don't really get the idea unless you're so into Pokémon that seeing a Pokémon always excites you no matter what
>>56108757>If catching Pokemon isn't the intended gameplay, why are you allowed to do it?catching pokemon != training them evenly>If using more than one Pokemon isn't the intended gameplay,using more than one pokemon != training them evenly> Hell, the trainers usually have Pokemon around the same level, which would imply that's the intended way to play. The trainers also usually have 3 pokemon at most. Does that mean I should only be using 3 Pokemon at most?> We could go even further to the fact that many official tournaments, battle facilitie, and online modes specifically want your team at or around a certain level This is completely unrelated from what I do in the campaign.
>>56109030>catching pokemon != training them evenlyThe rival, your in-game narrative equal, trains his team of Pokémon evenly>using more than one pokemon != training them evenlyThe rival, your in-game narrative equal, trains his team of Pokémon evenly>The trainers also usually have 3 pokemon at most. The rival, your in-game narrative equal, uses more than 3 Pokémon and finishes with a full team of 6
>>56107979there are actual 19 year olds posting here who were 7 years old in 2010holy fuuuuuuck
>>56109040>The rival, your in-game narrative equal, trains his team of Pokémon evenlyso?
>>56109060Anon... 7 year olds in 2010 are 21 now. I'm one of them
>>56109066WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKGO AWAYforgot me showderp trip on whoopsies
>>56109065As he is on the same journey with the same mission as you, this is strong evidence of how the devs expect the game to be played.
>>56109069No it isn’t.
>>56109078Yes it is.
>>56109011>original dexcut of the GBA eraTell me one Pokemon that you can't get in gen 3, other than the usual event only mythicals. Game exclusives do not count as "dexcut".
>>56108458yawnie downie we all know you overlevel your mons at least 10 lvs before every major fight, why do you even need strong moves?
>>56108590Man it's sad to see that you've written well thought out responses and yawnfag just keeps spewing her non-answers of "muh handicap" and just shitposting all around.
>>56108590>Training Pokémon evenly is the intended gameflow, as demonstrated for example by the rival teamsWhere does the game imply that I’m supposed to copy my rival? What a fucking retarded argument.
>>56109597At every opportunity, what Blue/Green is concerned and which I'm mainly referring to. He fills out his Pokédex, he trains his Pokémon, he explores the region, he does the Gyms, he becomes the Champion. You are doing the same things and he is slightly better at it.
>>56109606> You are doing the same things and he is slightly better at it.And yet I beat him anyway, maybe because I’m not wasting exp on more than one Pokemon like a retard.
>>56109610Given Kanto's level spike at the end, even this is doubtful to be honest. But we all know you grind a lot more than natural anyway.
>>56109610>maybe because I’m not wasting exp on more than one Pokemon like a retard.And yet it takes you more than 40 hours to get your first hall of fame record. Pathetic
>>56109613>>56109620It’s amazing how retards here who perpetually cock suck the older games have such a terrible familiarity with them. Then again I guess that’s the only way to think they’re well designed in the first place.
>>56108787based response
>>56109632>gets called out>instant deflectionKek what a bitch.
Friendly reminder that sagefag didn’t even know none of the trainers in Platinum don’t have EVs. That’s how bad his understanding of the mechanics of his own favorite games are. He probably hasn’t even replayed them since he was a child.
>>56109692Friendly reminder sagefag doesn't exist and it's just a massive cope yawntard uses to cope with her down syndrome.
>I play Minecraft and went back and played Minecraft Alpha 1.2 and honestly, didn't keep my interest.
>>56109731do counterstrike
>>56109731Beta is more fun than modern Minecraft in a lot of ways
>>56109768>bitches and moans about how purposeless beta feels rather than appreciating it in the context of 2010
>>56110222?
