Why are they hated
>>56468208because retards would rather blame Smogon than acknowledge that Game Freak are incompetent faggots who intentional made Pokemon's PvP an unbalanced farce to prop up shillmons.
>>56468208A. General contrarianismB. VGCels are eternally salty that it's more popular than their format despite being unofficialC. Karenfags hate all compfaggotry and just focus on Smogon because it's the one everyone talks aboutD. Some people have honest gripes with their decisions (this is the smallest minority of Smogon haters)
>>56468208singlehandedly ruined competitive discussion
>>56468243>it's more popular than their format despite being unofficiallmao is this true
>>56468208I just find a lot of the decisions to be completely arbitrary, especially banning of chance related items when chance related moves are completely fine for the most part. I don't care that much because the only time I've ever encountered smogon is playing cobblemon on a private server, so people who actually have competitive as a hobby probably use it for a reason. I just laugh at shit like banning double team or razor claw because I guess rolling the dice is only okay when using blizzard or gunk shot or something, has a lot of tranny energy from an outsider standpoint
>>56468284I think accuracy/evasion is a bullshit mechanic in general, but Double Team is definitely fundamentally far worse than Fire Blast. I have no opinion on Razor Claw. >has a lot of tranny energythe fuck does that even mean
>>56468208this thread again
>>56468284you would be correct on virtually every point
>>56468284Reminder that King's Rock/Razor Fang were only banned because Finchinator lost to a Cloyster in a tournament.
>>56468415Is this true? Is there a replay?
>>56468421yes and yesafraid so
>>56468243E. It's fanficbanning double team, baton pass, etc is laughable. It's not the way the game is intended to be.Hell they banned entire gen 8's entire gimmick wtf
>>56468208Kids these days are so used to being told what to play that the mere idea of house rules confuses them.
>>56468415The timing for their ban is irrelevant, they should have been gone along with the evasion clause because they literally only exist for fish for hax. Togekiss and Jirachi should have gotten the boot too, if not Serene Grace as a whole.
>>56468208The people who hate Smogon very much overlap with the type of people who despise No Items and Stage bans in Smash.Basically underages who hate being told they can’t Dynamax their box legendary with Bright Powder or can’t play on Hyrule Castle with Items on (they can just not while playing with official rule sets)>>56468284Bright Powder and King’s Rock being banned is fine because losing a turn is massive in Pokemon and they also don’t serve a competitive purpose other than RNG cheese.No Pokemon needs either items, while tons of Pokemon would need Iron Head or Air Slash. Banning moves like that would massively affect the metagame at large, and most aren’t as bad as those 2 in terms of secondary effects.
>>56468433I found the blog post but no replay
>>56468515no items/stage bans in smash is dumb though. it makes the game more static, appealing only to people who like static environments, narrowing the game into a small handful of characters and strategies that excel on a couple of stages at the expense of 95% of game content. I'm sure the trannies who are actually into competitive smash have a blast doing the same thing over and over(overlaps with speedrunning) but it's incredibly uninteresting to watch and completely unimpressive compared to someone who consistently excels hitting the random character and random map button in a haze of items and 3+ other people on stage in a free for all with politics and actual strategy. competitive smash is a sanitized greyscale joke. at least smogon only cuts a few corners off of game content, I wouldn't even remotely compare them.
They've banned and removed so much at this point that the game they play is no longer anything even close to resembling the actual Pokemon gamesThey can spin their calcs and whatever to excuse whatever silly ass decisions they make, but when you're banning sleep just so you can keep Darkrai legal in OU while in the same breath claiming Baxcibur is "broken", you've definitely lost the plot and whatever credibility you had left is gone
>>56468515No. Smogshit is more like the casual autists who want to ban shielding.
>>56468468this
>>56468492It used to be understood that if you were using house rules in a game, you were a casual player.That "at your table" =/= the actual game.
>>56468680lol thisSmogoniggers are just casual autists / autistic casuals.
>>56468542https://youtu.be/fm-t-TH-GQA?si=efXfxUclnbjdMMhEalso his response:https://youtu.be/rCSVxIU9Xho?si=1bNj8_0Nz0QGYoo-
>>56468671Smogoniggers are so entitled that they ban whatever flavor of the month is most popular and most annoying to them personally, while pretending there's any higher logic to their decision making than that.
>>56468208Because retards use them to pretend they have valuable insight on how Game Freak should design the game.
>>56468725And here come the corporate bootlickers who need a seal of approval to have fun.
>>56468468You have never played against a good baton pass team. Everyone who has made it to high ladder with one agrees that shit is extremely unfair in 6v6 singles. One good prediction ends the game on the spot.
>>56468243>B. VGCels are eternally salty that it's more popular than their format despite being unofficialIts popularity comes from 90% third worlders that cant afford the game.
>>56468342I can say for sure that you are definitely exerting plenty of tranny energy cap.
>>56468746Okay, I'll bite. I know it's a shitpost, but w/e.>sheer coldOHKO move. Duh.>GlalieMoody is a broken as fuck ability that snowballs way too fast.>Galar DarmHudeously overpowered mon that was designed with the premise that it's bad in doubles. Every dev that shares this design philosophy should be fired for gross incompetence.>KyuremThe 660 BST monstrosity finally got good moves besides draco and outrage in gen 8. No more 660 BST mons in OU. Ban that band-aid Zamazenta Hero from SV OU and fix the fucking tier.>Iron BundleSee Galar Darm. Incredibly powerful and fast mon with flawless neutral coverage thanks to freeze dry. These problems are only made worse with booster energy, an item that should have been banned from the start. >Chien-PaoWould probably remain legal had tera been (rightfully) banned instead. Choice banded tera dark crunch spam was just too much.>BaxcaliburUnkillable in snow behind aurora veil. Yea, a mon that is defensively overpowered BECAUSE it's an ice type, not despite it.>CloysterI'll give you this one. There is much worse shit going around in modern BW2 OU than late game Cloyster.
>>56468468Good example of B
>>56468886>glalie snowballs>this is somehow a problemwhat's next, ban seaking because it swims or exploud because it yells?
>>56468827>it's not fair!!It's fair if you are allowed to use lock on + sheer cold
>>56468746Did froslass ever get banned?
>>56468208I don't hate smogon itself I hate faggots who pretend it's not a fanfic format with completely dumb arbitrary bans and rules that doesn't resemble what pokemon is anymore.I get slightly more hateful when I boot up a romhack to have fun single player and there's smogon rules.
>>56469168No one pretends it isn't a made up format besides the imaginary people you constantly seethe about.
>>56469177>No one pretends it isn't a made up formatPlenty of people do. Hence you end up with retards who think Ice and Grass type are bad and GF needs to buff them.
>>56469168>i prefer the official format, vgc, yes 4vs4 totally makes sense for doubles. i wear a fedora how could you tell?what being raised by a single mother does to a mf
>>56469184No one does and you will never be able to prove it because it doesn't happen.
>>56469191Why do you have that webm saved?
>>56469197NTA but i like that girl :3
>>56469138Snow Cloak because of evasion
I don't have a hatred of Smogon, but I will never not find it funny that their tiering councils will always fall over themselves to justify banning any novel tactic that starts to "take over" a metagame because the rate of usage makes a "stale and uncompetitive metagame without better options," yet will then refuse to ban any ridiculously high pick rate and overcentralising pokemon that are "core to the metagame." The most obvious example of this is gen II Snorlax, that is either the best or second best Pokemon in the entire game depending on who you ask (some will argue Mewtwo is still better). Snorlax is centralising to the point that there is no competitive GSC team in a format that lax is legal that doesn't have lax. Lax is centralising to a point that every team in a format with lax needs at least one lax counter and generally wants a backup lax check (and its own lax, so 3 team slots used around lax). Lax single handedly defines the OU metagame and, alongside Mewtwo, defines the Ubers metagame. Lax will never be banned to Ubers because Lax is "a core part of the OU metagame." Celebi and Ho-Oh are significantly less centralising and powerful than Snorlax, but will forever be stuck in Ubers because dropping them to OU would "disturb the balance of the OU metagame." The only time that there was consideration in dropping Celebi and/or Ho-Oh was when Jynx rose as a counter to boom teams, because that threatened the stability of the "Lax, Raikou/Zapdos (often both) + 3/4 other staples" metagame that "is OU." Smogon will defend having the best Pokemon in the game that centralises the entire game around it kept in the OU tier but will ban any strategy other than standard HO/Balance/Stall because it "risks over centralising the game."Note that there are other gens with this issue to a lesser extent (Gen VI Landorus is the first one that comes to mind) but Snorlax is indefensible while also claiming that tiering and bans are based on usage and warping the metagame.
>>56468468>Hell they banned entire gen 8's entire gimmick wtfbanning generation gimmicks is fucking based
>>56468905Glalie is an iceball, not a snowball. Only niggers throw iceballs.
>>56468208I'm not a tourneyfag so I don't care.
>>56468886can you explain how having multiple of the same items on a team is balanced?
>>56469386> yet will then refuse to ban any ridiculously high pick rate and overcentralising pokemon that are "core to the metagame." The most obvious example of this is gen II SnorlaxLol it do be like that
>>56468208Personally I hate them because they hide their origin story. Smogon is the German name for Koffing and it was a Nazi gaschamber joke. They tried to erase all traces of this fact and instantly delete every mention of it and ban you.They are fucking cowards.
>>56469814
>>56469833Actually mad about this
>>56469814>censoring KYS on 4chanGo back
>>56469814If you ban snorlax, then another cunt will just take its place, except that it will be an overall worse experience.
>>56469931Which suggests that the way that they approach tiering is fundamentally broken. The best pokemon in the game is fine for the second highest tier (that allows banning pokemon that are too centralising or too strong) but then the second through sixth (some argument it is actually the second, third, fourth, sixth and seventh) pokemon get banned to Ubers for "just being too good for the metagame." The claim has always been that if you ban Snorlax then Zapdos (and arguably Raikou) become too good, but a large reason for the bulky electric legendary ubiquity is that they are used as checks to Snorlax. For the record, I actually fucking ENJOY GSC OU, it is probably my favourite smogon format. My issue is just that they want to pretend to be making a metagame balanced around some higher ideal than what the tiering councils want to play and people lean on that authority to say that smogon knows "what is balanced when it is just a culture of competitive players that like to play the game a certain way and prune the game to maintain that playstyle (part of why Jynx was nearly fucking banned from OU for "freeze fishing" when the reality was that it just upset the delicate balance of their precious tier by countering the popular boom threats). We need sleep and freeze clause because Nintendo Stadium formats used them from the start so it is the "accepted way to play competitively," but we don't need item clause because "we aren't restricted by what Nintendo thinks competitive play is." It is fucking circular, if there was just some honesty from the tiering councils that they are groups of people tailoring the game to be played the way that they enjoy there would be a lot less bad blood, but every time a different clique starts cultivating rulesets that balance on different principles (last time I remember was in gen 6 with the alternate PS banlists) it gets smacked down as "not competitive" because it invariably balances towards a different metagame to smogon tiers.
>>56468468Dynamax was busted and deserved the ban. It even got banned from Ubers despite them trying everything to limit it. Ubers even resorted to banning Dynamax on specific Pokemon (only time Gyarados was ever targetted by something in Ubers).
>>56468243SPBPSmogon ain't perfect, but it's the best we've got.
>>56468284>when chance related moves are completely fine for the most part.If there were versions of moves without their secondary effects, the ones with the secondary effects would probably be banned too. Or at least Ice Beam and Iron Head would.
>>56469138Game Freak only gave it one ability in Gen 4, Snow Cloak, so it can't technically be used.
>>56469931They've tried a Snorlax-less format. The issue is that without Snorlax, you suddenly have to ban Zapdos and Raikou since there's nothing that can keep them in check. With them gone, Starmie, Skarmory, and Cloyster go out of control and you need to ban them.It can be done. GSC can be cleaned up. However, most people are used to it being the worst competitive format ever that isn't Doubles.
>>56468208>Why are they hatedThey aren't. It's just Verlisify + a couple of fags on /vp/. Smogon Random Battles are the most popular format of competitive Pokemon.
>>56470044Wasn't that exactly what happened in dpp OU and Jirachi?
>>56470148Random battle chads won
>>56470044One thing I hate about Smogon is how they don't leave past gens alone. Tiers should be frozen when a gen ends, if I play gen 4 OU I want to play gen 4 OU as it was back then, not some neovagina version
>>56468569>>56468680See you’re just proving my point.
>>56468468Go suck game freak harder yawnfagRNG is garbage.Dynamax was busted and even top VGCfags think the mechanic was garbage.Baton pass made 1v1 into autistic magic bounce fishing contests instead of being Pokemon battles.
>>56470726nta but as an honest question, where are you comfortable with RNG?>Evasion>Accuracy drops>Flinch chance>Full para chance>Confusion damage>Sleep turns>Defrost chance>Inaccurate moves>Secondary effects>Critical Hits>Damage RollsThe game is constant RNG. When you lose due to Focus Miss, RNG went against you, but when you win with it, you weren't just lucksacking, you were using a tactic that maximised your chance of winning there and then. When you fail to paraflinch somebody you lost to RNG, when you paraflinch them you weren't just lucksacking, you were maximising your chances of winning. Unless you want to reduce the game to fixed damage moves, entry hazards, speed manipulation and the like you will always have RNG in Pokemon. The entire game is built on choosing between uncertain options. Fuck, VGC even bought into this cancer in recent years going from closed selection to team preview to full team sheets.
>>56470726>RNG is garbageRNG is an inherent part of the game. Arbitrarily trying to remove some RNG but not others just cements that it’s just an irrelevant fanfic format.>Dynamax was bustedA game mechanic cant be busted. By this shitty logic you can also say switching is busted.>Baton pass made 1v1 into autistic magic bounce fishing contests instead of being Pokemon battlesThen why is Baton Pass rarely used in the actual game?
>gets btfo>runs awayEvery time with this guy.
Rate my gen 9 OU team:Meowth @ Life Orb Ability: Technician Tera Type: Normal EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe Jolly Nature - Fake Out - Double-Edge - Knock Off - U-turn Arbok @ Leftovers Ability: Intimidate Tera Type: Grass EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe Jolly Nature - Gunk Shot - Sucker Punch - Trailblaze - Coil Weezing @ Leftovers Ability: Levitate Tera Type: Steel EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA Bold Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Sludge Wave - Flamethrower - Will-O-Wisp - Toxic Spikes Mimikyu @ Life Orb Ability: Disguise Tera Type: Fighting EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Jolly Nature - Play Rough - Drain Punch - Shadow Sneak - Swords Dance Gyarados @ Leftovers Ability: Intimidate Tera Type: Ground EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe Adamant Nature - Waterfall - Earthquake - Avalanche - Dragon Dance Victreebel @ Life Orb Ability: Chlorophyll Tera Type: Fire EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Modest Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Solar Beam - Weather Ball - Sludge Wave - Sunny Day
>>56468755Smogoniggers need to remove anything more than legendaries in order to have "fun".>>56468827>You have never played against [X]one of a smogonigger's favorite copes
>>56470928>>56470902these
>>56470140>The issue is that without Snorlax, you suddenly have to ban Zapdos and Raikou since there's nothing that can keep them in checkEntirely false.There's Blissey for one.>With them gone, Starmie, Skarmory, and Cloyster go out of control and you need to ban them.Also false, also Blissey.Gen2ards stay spouting bullshit.
>>56468827>making good predictions shouldn't help you winkwab
>>56470165>One thing I hate about Smogon is how they don't leave past gens alone. Tiers should be frozen when a gen endsThe tiers are frozen, mostly. The Gen 5 players decided they wanted to make the meta more balanced so they got a majority vote to start banning stuff. Gen 4 has also mostly been the same, just with Latias falling from Ubers and Smogon cracking down on random chance and thus banning Snow Cloak, Sand Veil, and King's Rock.The only change outside of those parameters is Arena Trap getting banned in every gen except for 3 where it falls in the "necessary to balance the meta" category.
>>56471443>TrannykyuBarfReplace it with Chad Carnivine.
>>56471647How about you replace your face with a fermented trout
>>56471695
>>56470044Look, it’s obvious nobody’s thinking critically about the underlying paradoxes of the Smogon tier system, and don’t even get me started on the Zapdos problem, because what happens when Snorlax gets banned? Easy, right? WRONG. The entire fabric of the metagame shifts, but nobody talks about how that’s essentially a microcosm of how tiering reflects human error at the systemic level. But then Raikou gets involved and suddenly we’re in a situation where you have to ask: are the Pokémon actually battling, or are we just moving pieces on a board that’s been broken since Gen 1?I swear, every time someone brings up Jynx, it’s like they’re pretending the meta isn’t on the verge of collapse because of FREEZE CLAUSE—which, btw, was only accepted because of Nintendo Stadium rules, and that’s literally a corporate construct. But OH, we ignore item clause because apparently we're "beyond" Nintendo’s competitive standard? Excuse me, what? It’s a closed loop of reasoning. Like, if you stare too long into it, you start to realize: is Smogon even real? Or is it just an idea we perpetuate to make sense of chaos?And then you look at how they enforce these rules, and suddenly you’re asking, why are we even playing this game? Maybe we're not playing Pokémon at all. Maybe Pokémon is playing us. What even is competitive at this point? A bunch of boomers deciding Raikou is fine in UU but Jynx gets dragged into Uber purgatory because ‘freeze fishing’?? WAKE UP! It’s all just control. If we could all just SEE how they’ve been curating the game to preserve their ‘delicate balance,’ maybe we could finally break free and start playing a version of the meta that hasn’t been sanitized by hidden agendas! Yeah, hilarious.
>>56470044>>56471736What justification is there for Item Clause other than it being a VGC standard?There are plenty of justifications for Freeze and Sleep Clause. The primary argument is that they are absolutely broken status effects that have little real counterplay. If you are unlucky, they are basically quasi-OHKO status conditions because you can't feasibly wake up/unfreeze before you lose the match, especially in earlier gens where sleep can last 3 - 7 turns. In Gen 1, Freeze is straight up a OHKO. Your Pokemon isn't getting out of it because there is no thaw chance. The only way to cure Freeze is to use an item, which is not allowed in multiplayer, or to use a small handful of Fire type moves, most of which are dogshit. Without Freeze clause, Gen 1 would be unplayable and Ice would be the undisputed best type in the game. Even in later gens, the 20% un-freeze chance is just too punishing. I've had games where I've remained frozen for 7 turns, losing me the match due to no fault of my own. That shit is fucking gay and should obviously be limited, and even the limits that due exist just aren't cutting it most of the time. It's not game accurate, but there absolutely should be a hard dethaw at turn 4 or 5 of being frozen so you don't permanently lose a Pokemon from a 10% Freeze chance.
>>56471523>predictions>pluralYou need one read. In fact, you don't even need a read. You can just make conservative plays until eventually bumbling your way into a BP chain starter for game. Hell, you don't even need a chain either. A single baton pass with a single stat boost is enough to act as a consistent win condition that allows you to choose your counters by simply passing into another good target since you're only running one passer. Even if your opponent makes the perfect play and forces you out, baton pass can still act as a switch move to instantly regain control if your opponent tries to play around you by switching himself.Baton pass is broken in singles. End of story.
>>56471776>>56471736Pokémon is a broken game and you can see they undo more and more of the old ways without completely redoing how stats and damage are calculated. They need to make it so (like in SV) you can easily just buy perfect stats and everything onto a Pokémon you already own. Breeding is fucking lame and cheaters make the game fucked genning mons. And the 255+255+4 stat spread is also retarded. Do this whole system over and figure out a better way of doing it. Vitamins and ev iv training is retarded.
>>56471776OrFix how freeze works?
>>56471776Oh boy, here we go again with the ‘justifications’, like we’re still pretending that tiering and clauses are anything more than a patchwork of band-aids on a fundamentally chaotic system. I get what you're saying about Freeze and Sleep being insane status effects, but the problem isn't even the effects themselves, it's the metagame we’ve built around trying to control them. Freeze in Gen 1 is basically a death sentence, but here's the thing: why are we even allowing that to exist in a 'competitive' environment to begin with? If Freeze Clause is such a no-brainer, why is the meta built on a framework that necessitates it? Why not rebalance the game entirely instead of slapping on arbitrary clauses and calling it a day? We're duct-taping symptoms, not solving the core problem.Also, you’re right, item clause feels like a relic of VGC, but somehow we conveniently ditch that 'standard' while clinging to others. Why? Because it suits the culture Smogon wants to perpetuate. Item Clause would throw off the meta they've curated, just like Freeze and Sleep Clauses are there to ensure the game's tempo stays intact. But let’s not pretend it’s about competitive integrity; it's about comfort zones and preserving the balance they like to play with. We're not balancing for Pokémon itself; we're balancing for a specific flavor of Pokémon that’s been pruned and refined to fit a certain mold, and everyone just plays along without questioning it.But hey, what do I know? I’m just over here wondering if we’re all frozen in the past, tweaking the same old meta with the same old tools. Maybe it’s time for a hard reboot instead of these endless adjustments.
>>56471476>>You have never played against [X]>one of a smogonigger's favorite copesI own 6 Pokémon games and have 2 viable Pokémon for competitive play and tried to breed the third one for months. Maybe if I could actually play instead of putting Protein up my Pokémon’s asshole I’d get to experience some of these Pokémon battles
>>56471884Yes, they're band-aid solutions, but Smogon isn't yet at the point where they're creating "fixes" for the metas like that. They absolutely could create mods that balance the formats and all of the broken things in them, but then they would be abrogating their duty of providing as close to a legit in game experience as possible while applying a light touch of bans to keep the meta healthy.Create a Pokemon Showdown "balance mod" and play that if you want. Most people just want to play their favorite comp formats as they are.
>>56471874I sure wish we could. Hell, I wish Freeze were turned into Frostbite. Crippling special attackers is a much lesser evil than effectively OHKOing any non-Ice, non-Fire type Pokemon.
>>56471476Smogon doesn't blanket ban. There is nothing they won't unban if it's balanced. If OU got to a state where Mega-Fug was balanced in it, they'd drop Mega-Fug.
>>56471443I think I faced you did you also have a hitmonlee
>>56471967Yeah, and that’s the core of the issue, right? Smogon’s approach is this weird balancing act where they want to maintain the ‘legit in-game experience’ while also adding their own rules to make the meta ‘playable.’ It’s a half-step between purism and interventionism, and it’s starting to feel like they’re stuck trying to have it both ways. Sure, creating a mod to fix the broken parts would be ‘abrogating’ that duty, but here’s the thing: isn’t applying a light touch of bans already a deviation from the ‘legit experience’? Like, where do we draw the line between making the game enjoyable and trying to preserve some kind of sacred authenticity?And honestly, if people just want to play their favorite formats as they are, that’s totally cool. But there’s a difference between preserving the spirit of the game and keeping things frozen (pun intended) in time out of fear of rocking the boat. If we’re constantly tweaking and banning to keep the meta healthy, maybe the healthiest thing would be to look at it from the ground up and build something more stable, even if that means embracing mods or custom formats. If the goal is balance, why stop at bans?But hey, if Smogon’s priority is authenticity over true balance, that’s fine too, as long as we admit that’s what we’re doing.
>>56471967Alright, let’s flex those mental muscles for a second: if we’re already pumping iron with bans and clauses like they’re our personal gym regimen, then this whole ‘authentic in-game experience’ routine is just a façade. Smogon’s out here sculpting the meta, pretending it’s all about that light touch, but baby, we’re in a full-on powerlifting competition, and they’re just using wrist wraps to cover up the cracks. Why stop at banning Snorlax or slapping on Sleep Clause? It’s like trying to bench press with a weighted vest that’s two sizes too small—just doesn’t work!Let’s get real: the original games were designed for some kind of chaotic muscle beach vibe, not for the polished stage of competitive play. Smogon’s rules are like those perfectly chiseled abs—great to look at but not exactly functional when you really need to perform. And honestly, I’m so gay though, it’s like, can we stop pretending that Freeze and Sleep aren’t the sweaty, uninvited guests at this fabulous gym party?Now, imagine a world where Pokémon and humans can unite in a glorious marriage—like, why not celebrate that love and synergy instead of restricting our beautiful bond with arbitrary rules? We could have weddings where trainers and their Pokémon come together, creating a new meta that embraces diversity and creativity. It’s a fabulous union where each Pokémon gets to shine, and we don’t have to worry about old-fashioned limitations.Why not throw a whole wedding celebration for mods that fix the broken parts? Smogon’s rules are just competitive Pokémon in their tightest tank tops, trying to look cute while pretending they’re the only way to get fit. It’s time to lift those weights off the game and admit we could actually achieve a pumped-up meta that isn’t held together with just frozen fantasies and patches. Let’s bring some real muscle, fabulousness, and a Pokémon-human marriage celebration to the game!
>>56471443wholesome
>>56470928>A game mechanic cant be busted.nta A poorly implemented mechanic in a game can very much be "busted".Even VGC players agreed, that is why Spikemuth Cup existed, which was even run as a side-event at some VGC venues late in the generation. Dynamax was busted, broken, and just not fun in single or doubles.
>>56470726you literally don't like Pokémon
>>56471830>a single baton pass with a single stat boost is enough to act as a consistent win conditionHave you tried not being bad and stupid?
>>56472185Lol Baton Pass also carries over things the opponent sets up on you, like Perish Song and Lock-On, but "muh teambuilding shouldn't be forced to account for that!"As if you're not being forced to account for Lando, or Kingambit, or whatever else the current top threat is
is this good Wailord (Wailord) @ LeftoversAbility: PressureEVs: 156 HP / 176 Def / 176 SpDBold Nature- Block- Amnesia- Defense Curl- Rest
>>56472239Verlisify > Smoggies
>>56472196>Perish Song
>>56472262Just taunt him.
>>56472262See also Ghost-type Curse, Haze, Unaware, Psych Up, Topsy-Turvy, Mirror Herb, and probably several other things I can't think of off the top of my head
>break sub with u turn>sweep with dittoComplaining about baton pass being good is like complaining about funbro being too good.
>>56472276Half of those get blown away by Stored Power.
>>56472317If I let you set up long enough to OHKO me with Stored Power, I deserve the loss
>>56472283baton pass is actually pretty bad now maybe in other gens when the power was lower it was Broken but now its much easier to deal with it. smogon only doesn't like it because it destroys stall
>>56472348Most of the time you have no choice. Baton Pass teams are so gay because they are matchup bait. You either instantly win or instantly lose against it.
>>56472351>Most of the time you have no choice.Did you miss the 87 ways to beat it above you?
>>56468208because they won't ban landorus
>>56468680Shielding is an important mechanic, cheesing games with King Rock is not.
>>56471999If by rules you mean the concept of not being able to bring certain mons (be it due to tier restrictions or a bad), that can still be applied to game rules while maintaining technical authenticity. Really, those boil down to an enforced gentleman's agreement to follow the procedure in regards to the teams each player brings. Making two players agree to follow certain guidelines (whatever they may be) before getting to match and battle does not actually modify any ingame aspects of how it runs.Besides sleep clause getting an excuse for having existed in Stadium prior, it makes sense as to why smogon would want to stay away from modding, when you consider the simulator's functionality as a more accessible means for people to challenge others in singles pokemon battles. Doesn't mean there aren't certain changes that I'd love to see happen, which could be done with a balance mod, but this is simply how things are
Anyone else feel depressed and isolated in life to the point you make chatgpt shit on himself in these threads just so you can watch somebody bully you
>>56472373Most of those are extremely specific and don't break a chain.
>>56472384Landorus is banned
>>56468259yes because doubles is ass/singes is the OG way to battle, but god forbid what horrors hosting a singles live tour would become the last thing you want is for a game to last 5 hours cause of stall and skew the whole tournament, doubles is realistically the only way cause games go fast
>>56470044>I enjoy gsc ou, its my favorite format>but I also want snorlax ban>even though the entire format revolves around snorlax???
I hate team previewI blame Zoroark for its existence
>>56472039you know people have tried in the past to create pure cart experiences, ruleless and all, both on smogon and other sites entirely unrelatedthey all die off and/or are less funbut if you think its so cool go ahead and retry to make one
>>56472686Team preview was a thing for all the console games. Which were the ones used for competition.
>>56472317meloetta with skill swap/perish song/protect/attacktera dark if gen9+ mental herb if you think they'll have encore
>>56472716Skill Swap doesn't work on anything behind a sub.
>>56472706I'm refering to smogon, they only used it gen5 and after after ingame battles vs other people forced it
>>56472745Smogon rules are designed to be reasonably played on a cart. You can't expect the other person to just shut his eyes while you pick a team.
>>56472787I somewhat agree because they just do the teams with the ones already made and stuff then they claim to be good but they never made the team so that means they’re better when they win despite you just rolling bad odds on the team you were playing against but sometimes you just gotta take a deep breath and just hop in a cold shower to ease off your pain on why you decided to spend your remaining adult years playing pokemon rather than dreaming about getting a wife and reaching out of poverty. Wish I had that
>>56472686I love team preview. It always bugs me that RandBats don't have it because you can get absolutely demolished by a pocket Tropius or Vileplume that you don't have a handful of very rare counters for and can't see coming.
>>56472915and not just any wife I mean like a really hot wife
>>56472716>Have a useless Pokemon in 98% of matchups on the 2% chance you run into a Baton Pass team>Still have a 50/50 shot of winning the matchuplol, lmao even
Because this cro-magnon looking, subhuman creature who ruined showdown for the rest of time
>>56472936Thats antisemitic
>>56471776singles isn't balanced around half the pokemon on your team having booster energy and heavy duty boots
>>56472949Pokemon isn't balanced.
>>56472953I agree. It's a fool's errand for smogon to try and balance the game
>>56472961It's more fun to not be beholden to Game Freak's shit decisions.
>>56472979like what?
>>56472982Their lack of balance
>mfw I don't give a shit about competitive pokémon and feel fully satisfied by just playing the games casually, beating the E4, the champion and the postgame battle facilities
>>56472949>Booster EnergyJust force them out once>Heavy Duty BootsMaybe in Gen 8, but in Gen 9 they are a necessary evil due to Gholdengo and the huge distribution nerf of Rapid Spin and Defog.
>>56473003The last game I felt satisfied playing was B2/W2 and that's 12 years old now.
>>56473135>Turns into a mushroom, starts spinning, and grows a giant dick So this is the power of VGC Amoonguss
>>56473135That's why I only play the older games I actually enjoy
>>56473128Man, it's almost as if people are able to attack hazard relentlessly due to the banning of several strong Ice and Water types that could punish shit like Gliscor trying to stack them up
>>56473195Gliscor isn't the only Pokemon able to stack hazards, and any water or ice-type banned punches holes in the entire metagame.
>>56473195The fuck are those powerful Ice and Water types going to do to Glimmora, Deoxys-S, Ribombee, or Hamurott?
Yeah, idk how something that hits really damn hard with Water attacks is stopping two frail speedsters and a part Rock type... H-Samurott isn't exactly all that sturdy either, nor is it particularly fast
>>56473242Glimmora and Ribombee always have Focus Sash. Those fast Ice and Water types aren't carrying multi-hit moves. Greninja might, but Greninja is also not good anymore and isn't banned.Deo-S can outspeed and get up at least 1 hazard, 2 if it's sashed. Hell, it could outright kill all of them if it's Sash or LO.>252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Bundle: 360-425 (142.2 - 167.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO>252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darmanitan-Galar: 386-456 (109.9 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO>4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chien-Pao: 520-614 (172.7 - 203.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>>56472702>you know people have tried in the past to create pure cart experiences, ruleless and all, both on smogon and other sites entirely unrelatedCan you name any? This isnt a gotcha, I’ve literally been thinking of doing just that, but if there’s a history of this sort of thing failing then I’ll save myself the time. I’d like to be able look up how it went for others who tried it though, see exactly why the metas were apparently not fun, how they developed for the small time they were played, stuff like that.
>>56473300That's what Anything Goes on Pokemon Showdown is. Smogon also ran a "cart accurate" format earlier this gen and it died out within 2 months because no one actually liked playing the no-bans meta.
>>56468259no
>>56473355Anything Goes isn’t cart accurate, retard.
>>56473355I should have specified I meant for past gens. Showdown doesn’t offer any kind of ladder for past gen AG, and even then AG isnt really what I meant. More like official nintendo rules, so unique species clause, item clause, etc would still be in play and there would still be certain pokemon bans (mew and mewtwo werent allowed in official gen 1 tournaments, for example). You can set that up on showdown with custom rules but need to go out and find someone ahead of time for that. I’d love a battle sim like showdown that uses past official rules, where it’s easy to just get on ladder and quickly match with people.Not sure if there’d be enough of an audience for it to take off, but at least the people complaining about bans would have an alternative. I guess this wouldnt match the old version of whatever old gen ou they want back, though.
>>56473412Yes it is
>>56472681You missed the point anon. I don't necessarily want a Snorlax ban. I LIKE Gen II OU, Snorlax + Zapdos + Raikou + Cloyster + 2 and all. I want people to admit that Smogon doesn't actually balance around any objective measures, and instead balance around what a collection of players that are decent at the game and better at navigating forum politics think a given game should look like. I prefaced my first post in the thread by saying I don't even hate smogon, and I fucking mean that. I personally love fan formats and self imposed challenges in all sorts of games. I just wish that people would stop lending their fan formats some sense of legitimacy and authority over the actual games on cartridge, where gen II pokemon lists exclude any event mons that Japan were playing with but assume that you magically have every NYPC event pokemon available to you, where what is "best" and "worst" are defined by what is best and worst within a set of limitations set by one fan community, and where those limitations can be changed by that community for no other reason than to preserve what is currently best and worst.For the record I was also in favour of bringing Celebi and Ho-Oh down to OU, not because I was scared of the big nasty Jynx but because if Snorlax's overcentralisation has been fine for decades, why not see what centralisation will result from bringing some of the weaker Ubers into its playground. Supposedly we could just ban them a few months later if it wrecked the format, so why not give it a go? Well, because that would mean six months of the tiering councils not having the specific OU that they want to play, and we are all dragged along for the ride.
>>56468208The fact that Kingambit and Gholdengo have the meta on a chokehold speaks volumes about how ineffective Finn and his crusade of trannies are in the terms of banning.
>>56468569>no items/stage bans in smash is dumb though.Its LITERALLY the only thing keeping it from being a Mario Party boxing minigame.
>>56468468Go play frlg if you like evasion changing moves so much
>>56473519>Smogon doesn't actually balance around any objective measures, and instead balance around what a collection of players that are decent at the game and better at navigating forum politics think a given game should look likeThis is the most accurate statement about smogon that has been made on /vp/ or really most of the internet. You perfectly summed up my issue with them.I mostly come from a gen 1 ou background but that ruleset is as inconsistent as any other. Every move in the game that can cause desyncs or other weird issues on cartridge is banned, EXCEPT counter. Why is that move, which can semi randomly cause desyncs on cartridge, allowed? Because the “council” likes it, and they like gen 1 ou to stay in its current format. They dont fix other moves and allow them to be consistent, because they dont care about those.It’s 100% about personal preference. Which is fine on its own, but don’t act like there’s any legitimacy to it besides that.
>>56470902Any RNG we have to actually deal with otherwise the meta drastically changes or if the RNG isn’t so gamebreaking.>EvasionAbsolutely should be banned. You only ever use Evasion to cheese games.>Iron HeadWish it didn’t have a 30% chance to flinch and wasn’t in the metagame, but so many Pokemon would be screwed over without Iron Head. Several steel types lose out on steel stab and many others lose out on coverage against Fairy types.>Lava PlumeIt’s not a move that fire types really need, since they have Flamethrower, Heat Wave, Fire Blast, etc. but it’s acceptable since there is tons of counterplay (fire types, Magic Guard, Guts, special attackers, Natural Cure, Purifying Salt, Poison Heal, Lum Berry, Rest, Heal Bell, etc.)>Random CritsYou can’t ban these since these are tied to attacking and would alter the actual game.You also have low accuracy moves like Hydro Pump and Hurricane, which being a detriment to the user only means it’s partially your fault for missing.If RNG only serves to cheese games with powerful effects, can be banned like abilities or items can, and wouldn’t remove several Pokemon’s only means of reliable coverage, then yes it should be banned.
>>56473674Thanks anon, it is nice to see a fellow person who doesn't fall under the "hates smogon" category that also sees the silliness in how they sell their formats as being balanced on anything other than the preferred gamestyle of a group of people. For gen II the thing that will always stick in my throat (other than the most overpowered pokemon in the game and arguably the most overcentralising pokemon this side of megaray and gen I mewtwo being "not at all overpowered for OU") is the PCNY distribution pokemon moves being allowed across the board because "well it was made available to English language Pokemon carts!" despite nobody outside of the US East Coast playing with any of those pokemon sets. Meanwhile, there has never been any thought given to any of the Japanese distributions because "well you can't trade between JP and ENG games in gen 2 so those pokemon weren't available!" This wouldn't be too big a deal until you realise that if we want to be purists on "how the game was to be played at the time" we'd be playing Prime Cup on Stadium 2, and then you have item clause and all the "bullshit RNG" moves and matchup fishing teams kicking in and we can't be having that!All of that would be fine and people would rightfully be told to pound sand but then when people assess whether a pokemon was good, bad or average in an older gen they go "well how does it do in smogon formats?" All of a sudden Eeveelutions are judged entirely based on the idea that they have access to Growth, Pokemon other than Marowak, Farfetch'd and Pikachu are assumed to be holding lefties like everyone else on your team (meaning that teams aren't assessed based on how they fit with item availability), pokemon that are a solution to a banned tactic in smogon but are mediocre otherwise get downplayed in significance... I like a lot of smogon formats (post b2/w2 gen V OU can suck a fat one though) but they cause distorted ideas of what pokemon fundamentally is.
>>56473788A question - how is Scald burn fishing for the win on a defensive pokemon fundamentally different to Sheer Cold fishing for the win on a fundamentally defensive pokemon? In both cases you are staking your chances of victory on rolling a 30% effect turn after turn, with the win being decided by hitting that chance. If you fail to hit that chance on your low damaging scald mon you lose the damage race and lose, if you fail to hit that chance on your sheer cold pokemon you lose the damage race and lose. The fundamental difference is that the scald mon gets to see a HP bar go up and down (as it heals from lefties again and again) and when it hits that burn the other player gets even more RNG rolls to see if they can crit through it, while the Sheer Cold player doesn't get to see the HP bar play a little wiggle dance. If we don't want luck sacking moves, where does it end? Zap Cannon is a literal coinflip, but it is also useful coverage for some pokemon to have a high damaging electrical move. Sing is a slightly weighted coinflip, but sleep is seen as a useful control tool on certain sets and if Sing is the best option, so be it. Sheer Cold is a move that lets some pokemon change from "yeah it is defensive but it can't do anything but toxic stall" to "yeah it is defensive but it has a 30% chance to take you out each turn if you don't take care of it." However, OHKO moves are feelbad and feel more lucksacky so can't be having that.t. anon who doesn't even like OHKO moves but has been teambuilding around minimising the risk faced by them since solo playing in Battle Tower in Sapphire
>>56468259Singles have always been more popular. But then it'd make it even more obvious how terrible GF's balancing is.
>>56473917Easy.Scald burning a Pokemon is not remotely as game winning as OHKOing them.I think Scald is busted but because it’s a Water type move that can burn and was common on so many Water types, not so much that it has a 30% chance to burn.And like with Lava Plume, there are still significant number of measures to counter or mitigate Scald’s effectiveness compared to OHKO moves.
>>56468569>>56468515The guy that started the call to ban all the cool stages in smash also started the centralization banning of Pokemon on Smogon.
>>56473940No, it literally is and you have no idea what you're talking about
competitive pokemon never should have been tier-based, it should have been something like a point-buy system (i.e. you have a fixed number of points to build a team, where strong mons/items/moves cost more point and weaker ones cost less, and they're adjusted periodically based on pickrate)iirc someone actually tried to make this a thing once, but it never caught on because comptrannies hate trying anything new once they're already used to doing something a certain way
>>56474208I distinctly remember that existing in Gen VI or VII for a while, there was a format brewed up that involved different tiers that you could buy from, for example you could have 1 tier 1 mon or 2 tier 2 mons for one of your buy slots, then another slot that was for a tier 2 mon, then the unused slots (or any you chose to waive) were for tier 3 mons. Basically similar to a restricted format for VGC, but with Pokemon going into the special tiers based on power level and usage instead of just by virtue of being a box legend, and with more granularity.There should be more fan formats out there and every other generation it feels like an alternative pops up, but Smogon just has so much inertia at this point that people review the power level of pokemon in a given gen based on how well they do in smogon formats alone and that just feeds into the perceived importance of the smogon formats.
>>56474208That’s called ratio. It’s a phenomenal idea but sadly for some reason has never caught on.Marvel Vs Capcom 2 community has an identical system since it’s an extremely unbalanced 3v3 tag fighter, different characters cost different points to put on your team. That fannade meta actually has some people that play it.It’s been tried in different gens before and people always seem to like it. But like I said for some reason it never has enough staying power to become a staple.
Because Pokemon is inherently an uncompetitive game and no amount of banning will fix that.
>>56472161Spikemuth cup existed for the same reason lots of ruleset mixups exist, was just a seasonal format to keep things from getting stale
>>56474277You see what I think so many people fail to understand is that Smogon popularity comes down to its simplicity, which is why I don't think varient formats have ever truly caught on. From the perspective of a casual player dipping their toes into competitive, you can easily pull up showdown and quickly explain the teiring system as just "you can use anything within or below your chosen tier. If you want to use certain mons and not feel gimped consider playing a lower teir". Thats how it was for me when I started: decided I wanted to use swampert and galvantula, saw that was UU at the time, went with that tier. While a ratio system in all honesty exists more for people already familiar with a system. You need to already know why something has the cost it does and how to best allocate your points to get max effect.
>>56473639Gholdengo isn't even that popular anymore and Kingambit just needs to be there to check all the broken setup sweepers.
>>56473639You're right that Gholdengo should be banned until good as gold is nerfed next gen, but Kingambit wouldn't be such a problem if they manned the fuck up and banned tera. How many more tera abusers are we going to ban until we finally address the root of the problem?
Simply put, Smogon aim to make a Pokemon meta that's very different from VGC and plays more like Chess with as many random elements or chances of sudden blowouts removed as possible.Predictably there's a lot of varying balance opinions as a result.Also it's the Pokemon fanbase so don't expect people to be mature about any opinion they have.
>>56472185in dpp poliwrath could end games from team preview with an agility baton passed to it. its not that baton pass is broken, its matchup fish. you either have what you need to beat it effortlessly or it steamrolls you. that being said, most of smogons council is stallfags, and stall hard loses to baton pass. however they also wanted to keep baton pass as a pivot move, since that was its purpose in gen 3, so they spent years poking baton pass with these weird half bans until they just gave up
>>56468738>Switching Dragapult into KyuremLiterally what the FUCK was he trying to do?
>>56473788>Evasion>Absolutely should be bannedjust boost accuracy lol. use always-hit moves lmao.
>>56474649I think a lot of old gens still have the weird half bans. In gen 3 I think there's only one boosting move allowed with bp and in gen 4 there's drypassing iirc.
>>56472373making room for any of those 87 contingencies weakens you against every conventional playstyle. a team that prepares for baton pass is worse than a team that doesnt at everything except dealing with baton pass
>>56474654Probably come in on earth power with something that actually threatens Kyurem.
>>56474656The only moves that can increase accuracy are Hone Claws, Coil, and Acupressure.
>>56468738>i brought 3 pokemon weak to ground and 3 weak to ice>make obvious pivots and get predicted twice>6-0'd>kyurem is the problem somehow
>>56474726The majority of Pokemon are weak to Ground and Ice.
Ditching item clause in spite of it being part of almost EVERY official format (including official singles) to this day seems extremely arbitrary Battle Spot is how they seem to want to balance singles btwBring 6 choose 3 is pretty different from full 6v6
>>56474757They're not ditching anything because it was never a part of the ruleset.
>>56474787Item Clause was very much a part of the ruleset, going back to local events held using Stadium 2 (the Stadium games having their origin as an official battle simulator for events in Japan). Funnily enough, gen 2 is quite a different game when you only have one leftovers, (relevant now with one leftovers) one mintberry and one miracleberry to go around.
>>56474787So you've literally never played on cart before, got it
>>56474797>Item Clause was very much a part of the rulesetFor Smogon, dipshit.
>>56474811Smogon leans on the authority of Stadium rulesets for why they have Sleep and Freeze clauses to this day (especially when people bring up that such clauses aren't a thing in VGC). I'm one of the people in the thread that doesn't hate smogon and actually enjoys their formats but wish that they would be honest about just being a group of fans curating a gamestyle that they want to play instead of actually trying to balance the game in any remotely objective way.
>>56474833It does lean toward the Stadium ruleset, but it does not use every one of those rules. Especially back in gens 2 and 3 when there were fuck all viable hold items to use. "muh fishul" has no bearing over Smogon rules, and never will. Otherwise they'd have dropped sleep clause in gen 5.
>>56474656nta but Evasion isn't banned because of lacking counters, in fact it's a very risky option for any pokemon that isn't already tanky aside from just entering into Sandstorm with Sand Veil.It's because literally what it does is adding more RNG. It wouldn't actually help stallfags like many people fear as their strat relies on switching and abusing shit like regenerator/natural cure, they aren't going to risk staying in for a small chance to dodge until you get to +6.
>>56474841Leftovers, Mint Berry (especially with the amount of setup + rest sweepers, it just changes them from rest talk with leftovers to rest with mint), Miracleberry (can be used as a second mint or as protection for a status fearing setup sweeper), damage boosting items, pokemon specific items (relevant when Marowak is the best recipient of agility in the game) are all relevant. "Fuck all viable held items" is only the case when you remove item clause and suddenly instead of your leftovers user being an actual choice that impacts your team building, you just whack it on everything and the game becomes far more defensive leaning.>"muh fishul" has no bearing over smogon rules"muh fishul" was the original justification for implementing sleep and freeze clauses to gen I and II despite them not being the case on cartridge in either gen. The fact that the Stadium rulesets were the "muh fishul" rulesets were used to justify them existing in rby and gsc, despite the various bugs present on cartridge being replicated in the smogon battle sim rulesets (like -255HP recover failure, focus energy quartering crit rate to name two easy ones).Just admit that smogon is based on what an online clique likes to play, and isn't based on what is balanced or competitive in and of itself. The second you admit that all of the people who hate smogon lose their main leg to stand on, but the slavish adherence to the idea that smogon is "balancing pokemon right" instead of "balancing pokemon to preserve a style of play that some people like" makes smogon defenders the biggest embarrassment this side of melee players.
>>56474875The damage-boosting items were laughably bad in gen 2, they only gave a 10% boost.>pokemon specific items3 of them are total memes while the last one is good but still requires you to use a specific type of team.>"muh fishul" was the original justification for implementing sleep and freeze clauses to gen I and II despite them not being the case on cartridge in either genNo, the justification was that they made the game more fun to play.
>>56468827Ono strategising with intended mechanics is so unfair
>>56474890Your "strategy" is to forfeit against everything that is not running Baton Pass.
>>56474886>The damage-boosting items were laughably bad in gen 2, they only gave a 10% boost. (and other item points)You are missing the point. Those items are notably worse than leftovers. Those items are better than no item (except on a Thief Pokemon, who wants to run no item to try and steal either leftovers or an item that a certain set might depend on). When you play with an item clause the decision of what pokemon get the leftovers, the mintberry, the miracleberry become very relevant, then the decision of whether you use damage boosting items (and if so which ones) or if a certain mon might want PSNcureberry, PRZcureberry or Ice Berry to hedge against specific counterplay also enters contention. It changes teambuilding decisions and informs set choices. OF COURSE if you just remove that you put a Thick Club on your Marowak, maybe a Miracleberry on your Scizor (probably not) and just slap lefties on everything else and then complain about how no other items are viable to pick over lefties.>No, the justification was that they made the game more fun to play.No, the justification is that it made the game more competitively balanced, as freeze lucksacking (especially in gen 1) and sleep spamming were uncompetitive tactics that let lower skill players take lucky wins based on hitting low % conditions. When people said that it was changing the battle simulation to prevent a style of play the counter argument was that it was usable (and in fact was a core rule in most of the in game formats) in Pokemon Stadiums 1 and 2, despite the fact that if you are to presume that we are playing in PS instead of on cart then a bunch of the gen 1 cart battle glitches shouldn't be present. Also, see the anon who posted above >>56473674 about cart desync moves being banned, except for Counter that they specifically fixed because they like what Counter does for the metagame. But they don't fix any of the other moves or glitches because they like what those do for the metagame.
>>56474911>Those items are better than no itemBarely. The benefits are so small they might as well not even exist in most cases.Running Ice Berry is retarded because there's no Wisp to force a burn. You're placing a bet that you get a 10% effect chance from a couple of different moves.>the justification is that it made the game more competitively balancedTherefore, more fun to play.
>>56474920>Barely. The benefits are so small they might as well not even exist in most cases.They turn some 4HKOs into 3HKOs, and some 3HKOs into sometimes 2HKOs. The damage boost is also more relevant when you don't have all of your opponents healing 1/16 of their max HP every turn.>Running Ice Berry is retarded because there's no Wisp to force a burn.I debated including Ice Berry in that assessment (you are right, all three of those berries are niche even in item clause but PSN and PRZ are more common as hedges against Twave or Toxic) but I included it for completeness, with some swords dance sweepers in item clause you might consider an Ice Berry over a type boost item, interesting how you actually have a decision making process in item clause because you can't just beeline to lefties huh?>Therefore, more fun to play.It would be more fun to fix all of the on cart bugs that make certain moves outright unusable too, oh wait they want to maintain the "in game authenticity" of their ruleset (unless the move is one that they like the metagame impact of, of course). See what I said >>56474875 again ->Just admit that smogon is based on what an online clique likes to play, and isn't based on what is balanced or competitive in and of itself. The second you admit that all of the people who hate smogon lose their main leg to stand on, but the slavish adherence to the idea that smogon is "balancing pokemon right" instead of "balancing pokemon to preserve a style of play that some people like" makes smogon defenders the biggest embarrassment this side of melee players.I am beginning to think you might be somewhat autistic.
>>56474940Toxic is pretty bad in gen 2 as well because it reverts back to regular poison on switch.>interesting how you actually have a decision making process in item clause because you can't just beeline to lefties huh?They're not really interesting options as you'd get in later games. You make one thing passable and everything else subpar, unless you're Marowak. I don't find the choice between a pitiful type-specific damage boost or one-time cure for a single status effect very interesting.>It would be more fun to fix all of the on cart bugs that make certain moves outright unusable tooProbably, but Smogon is mostly intended to be played on cart. Gen 1 is an oddity because the game is so busted in the original release and Stadium fixes stuff that people enjoy about the original game. But it's not a consistent rule.>smogon is based on what an online clique likes to playNo shit, Sherlock. It always has been. That's why they have community-run votes for how much of the game is shaped. Do you think you're clever for discovering that fact?
>>56474277Ration tournaments exist for Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3, another unbalanced 3v3 tag game where some characters are busted and some are shit: you have ten points and different characters have different values (shit characters are worth 1, less shitty characters are worth 2 etc up to 8 points for the god tiers), so when you build your team you have to choose a balanced team of mediocre characters or a mix of shit/mid tier + one high tierFunnily, Virgil is worth 10 point, which is to say he's banned because Virgil by himself is better than any team of three characters without Virgil, so if he was allowed at 8 points every team would be Virgil + 2 1-pointers
>>56474726Tapu Fini isn't weak to Ice thoughbeit.
>>56474959>They're not really interesting options as you'd get in later games. They are the most interesting held items in the entire franchise at time of release. They add a dimension to team building that separates it from gen I, much like the special split did. The case could be made that Item Clause is even more useful in Gen II and III than later, as the smaller pool of choices makes the limited item choice a more crucial decision in team building.>You make one thing passable and everything else subpar, unless you're Marowak. No you don't, because the one lefties pokemon isn't 1vs6ing the opposition. The decision of what you make your staying power pokemon is relevant, and if you think that is over centralising around one team choice wait until you play gen II OU and meet the life of the party, our boy Snorlax!>I don't find the choice between a pitiful type-specific damage boost or one-time cure for a single status effect very interesting.I find "everything has a passive heal of 1/16 a turn except Marowak that doesn't and gets double damage instead" to be the least interesting thing about Gen II smogon formats (which again, are formats that I play and enjoy). >Probably, but Smogon is mostly intended to be played on cart. Gen 1 is an oddity because the game is so busted in the original release and Stadium fixes stuff that people enjoy about the original game. But it's not a consistent rule.The point is that they are consistently interested in playing "as on cart" until they suddenly aren't. When they keep something retarded because it is "the way it is on cart", their dickriders praise the wisdom of smogon for preserving the legitimacy of the game. When they remove something retarded despite it being "the way it is on the cart", their dickriders praise the wisdom of smogon for fixing Game Freak's mistakes.>Do you think you're clever for discovering that fact?No I don't, I think that the majority of their cheerleaders are retarded for missing this fact.
>>56474985>They are the most interesting held items in the entire franchise at time of release.And Tackle is the most interesting move you get at the start of the game.The choices provided offer little difference to how the game is played, which makes them inherently uninteresting.>if you think that is over centralising around one team choice wait until you play gen II OU and meet the life of the party, our boy Snorlax!Snorlaxless metas have been tried, and they're not as fun or interesting as the game with Snorlax.>The point is that they are consistently interested in playing "as on cart" until they suddenly aren't.Gen 1 is the only real outlier to this, and is a special case because it is particularly buggy.>No I don'tI think you do, because you were so proud to bring it up several times.
>>56474959I thought the point of Smogon was balance not creating "interesting games". Smogon likes to bans things for their unpredictability so an item clause would reduce that unpredictability. You would see more pokemon running the same sets so they would be easier to counter. I think it would solve a lot of issues with the meta. You have to choose which pokemon you want to hold leftovers, choice specs, and heavy duty boots
>>56475007>I thought the point of Smogon was balance not creating "interesting games".Why? You can still achieve a sense of "balance" by forcing everyone to run the exact same set of 6 Pokemon, but it's boring.
>>56474995>I think you do, because you were so proud to bring it up several times.I am not proud to bring it up, I think it needs to be repeated until cheerleaders get it through their heads that pokemon aren't good or bad, tactics aren't viable or not based on how they do in a smogon format. >Gen 1 is the only real outlier to this, and is a special case because it is particularly buggy.If I recall correctly there was also some fuckery to do with some Gen IV and maybe V mechanics, it has been forever and that might have changed in the interim (I am not a fan of the DS era formats so I haven't played them much since they were current) but you can also call an artifically enforced sleep and freeze clause changes from "what is on the cart" that are justified because they just are okay?!?>Snorlaxless metas have been tried, and they're not as fun or interesting as the game with Snorlax.Snorlaxless metas haven't been given time to settle and evolve. Snorlaxless metas haven't been tried with follow up bans to ubers of things that become questionable with Snorlax removed (the most likely contenders being the electric legends). Snorlaxless metas are tried half heartedly for short ladders or more often for gimmick tournaments, people build standard GSC OU teams but without Snorlax, play the tournament, go "wow I really miss Snorlax" and never try again. The fact that the ban to ubers criteria is built around a pokemon or mechanic being over centralising to the point of the game revolving around it, the only viable counterplay being to do it yourself and then the most centralising pokemon this side of mega ray being the core of the format... It is the highest hypocrisy.>The choices provided offer little difference to how the game is played, which makes them inherently uninteresting.They offer little choice if your choice is leftovers or one of the items, if your leftovers is already used and you are now choosing between peer items then they become interesting choices.
>>56474841>when there were fuck all viable hold items to usetotally false
If there was item clause we wouldnt have classic kino teams like band sand
I'm not going to read the rest of the thread because I can guess 85% its arguments and contents or better, but it's honestly jealousy. Lots of people want to battle. Not everyone likes doubles. Most people want to have fun, which means fun their way. They're unhappy that Smogon is the most commonly agreed-upon unofficial ruleset instead of their own, most likely because they can't use a specific mon or strategy they want to in the core metagame. Many of them also somehow believe that the tier system is trying to eliminate their favorites from play, rather than offer every Mon a shot at viability in some context.I disagree with some of the inconsistencies that have emerged over the years (evasion bad, 60% flinch chance is fine), some personal decisions made by individuals (Haunter is a prime example), and the discourse around "complex bans" as if some of the implemented bans are not also complex. I do admire the sheer autism put into the hellish task of trying to make Pokémon an enjoyable competitive experience across many mechanically unique metagames.
>>56474208I think this ideas has four big issues.1) it's a shitload of work to maintain compared to Smogon's tiering system.2) Who determines what is worth what number of points and by what metrics? If it's by pick rate, that's pretty much just Smogon tiering with forced shitmons, which leads to my third point.3) The bad mons are still going to be pretty bad. This means that they will crumble against too much pressure or offer insufficient progress, which will then lead to games being about preserving your strongest mons. This is, in my opinion, just a worse version of current tiering that relies on essential sacrifices more than ever. There is a workaround, which is using mons just good enough to fit 6 of them of similar quality on your team, but that's basically just UU and RU with extra steps.4) The data from this would be insanely difficult to parse. Every decision would be so contextual that you ultimately suffer from what I mentioned in points 1 and 2. Evaluating everything to make proper adjustments would be a never-ending nightmare that ultimately would still be just as subject to what I mentioned in point 3.I wish it worked, but I genuinely don't think it can. I tried working out a solution similar to this with a huge spreadsheet, but I think the way to do this to play with ONLY mons of a specific tier or lower. You'd assign a score to every ability, every typing, every move, and stats of a certain threshold, then add it all up to get a score for each mon. Each range of scores from X to Y would be a "tier." The biggest problem I faced was that you'd really need to find a way to figure out how good a stat spread is, by classifying things as good for a particular "niche." For example, high speed + attack means you can evaluate it as a "fast attacker" or something. That creates its own problem of contextualizing moves according to what role a Pokémon is naturally suited to do.(1/2)
>>56468208>People find a way to make the games more fair by creating tiers and leagues where each mon can only go against other mons their size>the fandom: NOOOOOOOOOOO, STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP.I really never understood the hate, if anything this is a plus for some people and meaningless for others
>>56475132It COULD be done. The amount of work involved would probably be a few hundred hours just to start it up unless you used an AI, and you'd probably need to use really good players to assign baseline scores to things. Good examples of baselines would be Ice Beam, Flamethrower, and Thunderbolt as benchmarks for special attacks, Body Slam and Waterfall for physical ones, Intimidate for Abilities, and Leftovers for Items. You could start with those widely-accessible moves that have no real downside and scale all other factors from there. All the math on that would change for doubles, so you'd just need multiple sets of players who are demonstrably very good at the overall format they're evaluating.I would personally like to see a re-work of luck-based mechanics, too. I've talked about it before in other threads. Basically the idea would be to set start-ups or limits on secondary effects and eliminate accuracy as a mechanic. For example, if a move has a 30% chance to burn it could do one of two things: either each use of the move adds a third to a "burn meter (always burn on the third use)" or it can only/will always burn once per 3 uses. You could take every moves current power and multiply it by accuracy to get its finalized power, and then tweak all of the secondary effects to make each move unique. For example, if you round Fire Blast up to 95, then its burn could be only 20% (1 in 5 uses burn or it burns only after 5 uses), while Flamethrower has a 33% burn and 90 power. You could combine those too, like the first instance is based on the percentage, then charges every turn thereafter. Flamethrower would burns 1 in 3 uses, then burns on the third usage every time after its first burn. But that's not truly Pokémon anymore.I really want your idea or mine to be a viable solution, but doing it right would be insanely prohibitive to start up. Maintenance for mine would be easier, but still pretty fucking difficult. Then again, we've had over 20 years.
>>56474649>you either have what you need to beat it effortlessly or it steamrolls youThis describes almost every single thing in the game. Baton Pass isn't special in that regard. A swords dance talonflame could sweep teams in gen 6, not having an answer to weather screwed you in gen 5, every team needs to play around snorlax in gen 1. Nothing anyone has ever said against baton pass is unique to it.
>>56474726kyurem Isn’t even good and the complaints show how bad the player base has gotten>Run boots and scale shot hits two times or run loaded dice and take 25% on switch in.Aurora Veil hardly helps sense it takes turns to setup and specs isn’t even threatening
>>56474726That protect at the end is all the proof you need to know he's a faggot. I honestly don't think it would have been banned if he didn't get roosted on at the end.
>>56473135Fuck I’m old
>>56468827ever heard of haze? prankster haze, focus sash haze??? Clear smog exists too.
>>56476974>dude just bring murkrow for a single team archetype
>>56468208>>56468216>showdown/smogon player for 8 years>try playing Pokemon single player campaign again>slow walking around>slow text>mash A vs shitmons 99% of the time>rare gym leader or bossmon>HMs and shitty boring puzzles>rewatch slow animations 10000000 times>interesting teams are actively discouraged as its faster to spam super effective attacks>slow surfing>walking around grass waiting for the specific encounter you want>fucking caves>boring cutscenes which are unskippable>using shinies or specific IV combos is impossible without injecting/glitches>only one game has a higher difficulty mode, and its inaccessible without doing some random bullshit firstDo campaignfags really enjoy this? Its like the games actively try to be as unfun as possible. How do they even sell so much still?
>>56476992The random NPCs have more creative teams than 99% of the ladder.
>>564771926 Magikarps or a Harden-only team isn't creative
>>56477237It is in conjunction with every other NPC. Seeing the same cookie cutter team from the bottom to the top of the ladder on smogon isn't.
>>56474710Don't forget lock on somewhat
>>56475132>Who determines what is worth what number of points and by what metrics?uh, the same people who ban stuff in smogon?
>>56468208casuals hate them because they ban stuffreal niggas hate them because they dont ban enough
>>56473895The event mons aren’t even really programmed right in the sim. They were distributed at certain levels which makes perfect ivs/evs impossible, but the sim doesn’t account for those restrictions. So you have the overpowered event move AND perfect stats which shouldn’t be possible. The reason this has never been changed is people just dont care enough to, despite it being a significant difference.>post b2/w2 gen V OU can suck a fat one thoughWhat happened that ruined it? I really only have thorough experience with gen 1 and a small bit of gens 2/3 when it comes to competitive, but I liked b2w2 for the singleplayer so I’m curious what it did that ruined gen 5 for comp.>>56475078>Many of them also somehow believe that the tier system is trying to eliminate their favorites from play, rather than offer every Mon a shot at viability in some context.I see this argument frequently but I never see people complaining about the existence of UU, NU, etc.The actual complaints are that the rules decided upon by a small group dont reflect what is fun for many people, and them defending their decisions as more than personal bias is a blatant lie. Yes, people are frustrated that they’re not able to have fun *their way* but a lot of the resentment comes from the bullshit justifications.I really do wish a competitor would take off.>>56476992Going back is difficult. I’m a little sad to say I dont know if I would enjoy any of the games I used to adore if I went back to them now.
>>56476980Yes, that's how counterplay works. Toxapex, Darkrai, Empoleon, Gengar, Inteleon, Greninja, Weezing, Milotic, Blastoise, Palafin, Mamoswine, Chandelure, and Primarina all learn haze. Amoongus, Ceruledge, Amarouge, Torkoal, Brute Bonnet, and Gastrodon all learn clear smog. There are so many pokemon that can learn stat reset moves, there's plenty of counterplay, but the fags at Smogon don't like offensive strategies, so they ban them. Smogon is terribly boring to play due to stall, everything that beats stall gets banned.
>>56478767>that's how counterplay worksNo, that's just one specific bandaid fix that is completely useless against anything but one specific team. It's 5v6 otherwise.>clear smogDoesn't work against substitutes.
>>56478767Why you didn’t include parasect?
>>56478767>everyone should play haze toxapex to beat bp (most of the other mons you mentioned can just get ohkod if they have a single dragon dance in their bp)>man smogon just love stall too much
>>56478767this is what happens when adults obsess over a children's Pokémon battle format (singles) and try to make it "competitive" instead of fun
>>56478950I named like 15 other pokemon besides Toxapex.
>>56478770Giving up 1 of Darkrai's 4 move slots doesn't make it useless.
>>56479205Smogonfags are mostly 3rd worlders who can't afford the real games. On showdown the level of toxicity of singles battles is way higher than VGC. If I play singles at least 1 out of 3 people will be a screeching retard, while in VGC you barely encounter them (1/100 matches maybe).
>>56479205but smogon doubles is also more fun because it's 6v6 instead of 4v4 nonsense
>>56479734It does when it gets taunted or blown away in one hit.
>>56480047Exactly like a Baton Pass mon!
>>56480052All it takes is a Speed Boost mon protecting once to invalidate your Darkrai.
>>56480066Last I checked, Blaziken was banned, and the Nincada family is not in Gen 9But sure, buddy... your Speed Boost mon clicks Protect and gives me a free turn to do whatever I want
>>56480099>Last I checked, Blaziken was bannedYeah... from UU. You sure have strong opitions for someone so clueless.
>>56480143What is a Blaziken doing to a Primarina, Gastrodon, Chandelure, Ceruledge, Torkoal, or either Weezing?
>>56480099To do what? Switch into another Pokemon that is totally useless when facing something that isn't Baton Pass? Even if you Haze, Blaziken is getting that speed back at the end of the turn.
>>56480156Primarina takes half from Flare Blitz and CC at neutral, and dies at +2. Gastrodon dies to CC. Chandelure and Ceruledge can get EQ'd if they become too much of a problem. And Weezing could just get hit by Overheat.
>>56480177What about weezing or torkoal though? Surely they'll reliably stop every bp team to justify bringing them specifically for that matchup...
>>56468468>ban cacturne in gen 3 because it can like dodge an attack 1/4 timeswow
>>56480177and where does baton pass fit into this moveset? is blaziken allowed to have 5 moves and the opponent has no items?
>>56481129Baton Pass isn't usable in UU. And it doesn't need to run all of those moves, it just needs the threat of those moves. One wrong assumption and you lose.
>>56481135pokemon is a game where the opponent can use a hidden super effective move and KO a pokemon that was supposed to counter it. in reality I only see people copying the most commonly used moveset with some slight variation. An item clause would cut down on the guesswork on what moveset a pokemon is running
>>56481313An item clause wouldn't prevent Blaizken from doing what it wants.
>>56481351it doesn't matter how much blaziken raises its stats if what it baton passes into cannot out speed or out damage the opponent. another pokemon on your team using a choice band or scarf means the baton pass pokemon is less tanky, speedy, or powerful
>>56481372Even +1 speed is plenty to empower a Pokemon enough to end a game.
>>56481379Example?
>>56481060Yes, Cacturne being able to cheese games was exactly why it it got banned. Jimothy has a video about it.
>>56481313>>56481372Why do you want to place insane restrictions on team building just so bp can be allowed? People always whine about how Smogon hates creativity but then they come up with these insane ideas that curb creativity way more (btw, overpowered pokemon that get banned also tend to destroy niche pokemon).
>>56482564So one out of four turns it is a Cacturne that got a free turn, the other three out of four turns... It is fucking Cacturne. Did they ban Cacnea as well for being too scary?
>>56482621Educate yourselfhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF9ER1xqjko&ab_channel=JimothyCooltl;dw: sub leech spikes needle arm
>>56482670So in other words countered by Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Hail, rolling a 3 in 4, "Meditite used Double Kick," spinners...Are simulator players really that scared of a stage of evasion?
>>56480156>Primarina+2 thunder punch>GastrodonDoesn't even resist +2 close combat/HJK>Chandelure+2 stone edge>Ceruledge+2 stone edge>Torkoal+2 stone edge>or either Weezing?If you're going to sack a pokemon just to prevent the sweep (Neither Weezing is beating a +2 Blaizken after spikes + rocks), then you might as well run run a better explosion mon instead. Gas is good, but the Weezings are shitmons.>Skeledirge because your dumbass didn't mention it+0 stone edgeThese checks are significantly worse than the ones Blaziken had in BW OU where it had to muscle through Gyarados, Jellicent, Slowbro, Starmie, Tentacruel, Salamence, Dragonite, and Gliscor.
>>56472787>to be reasonably played on a cartKek. Kemao even
>>56482869>cacturn comes in>go to you rain dancer on his sub turn>get needle armed twice while removing the weather>he just switches ttar in again>unless its rain dance kingdra or magneton you have a useless pokemon that doesn't even do what it's supposed to do (and if it's one of those, they're only useful in certain team structures)>MedichamIs a decent pokemon but gets sandstorm chipped, 2hkod after sandstorm by needle arm and changes nothing about how even when you have a good pokemon in they might just miss and lose anyways.>spinnersThe best spinners in adv are Claydol, Starmie and maybe Cloyster, guess what all of them lose to?This was all mentioned in the video, yet you insist on posting bad solutions that don't work for a metagame that you don't even have a cursory clue about and think you're smarter than everyone else that played it.
>>56482567how is an item clause an insane restriction? this isn't just about bp but showing how smogon is trying to have it both ways on issues. they are against an item clause but always complain about a pokemon being unpredictable. some pokemon with high usage are fine but other lesser used ones are banned for overcentralizing. when you are forced to account for an opponent possibly have choice scarf or choice band on multiple pokemon that limits the pokemon that are viable. y'all always use vgc as an example of what a metagame with item clause would look like but is that less creative than a team with multiple booster energy, leftover, and choice scarf pokemon?
>>56483038It restricts creativity because every time you want to use a niche pokemon that means you can't use a more common pokemon that uses the same item. Want to use Moltres with hdb? Well too bad you already need those for you Tusk or Glowking.
>>56468208Their admin is a literal Jew and the fun-police mods keep getting outed as pedophiles
>>56483267crazy how they became the very thing they hated
as a former room owner on showdown, Smogon is the most autistic man child circlejerk I've ever encountered. I wish terrible things on everybody that uses that site
>>56477943???That is not how suspect testing works. Quick bans, maybe. It would be a lot harder with a point system, too.
>>56483293You're too young to understand the old concept of (x) nazis. They never hated meme nazism, they employed it because they were such nazis, and continue to be so.
>>56483998>as a former room owner on showdown, Smogon is the most autistic man child circlejerk I've ever encountered. I wish terrible things on everybody that uses that siteYou literally only need to have a brain, use it, and spend a few extended weeks in a room in order to realize this.
>>56482978I see a wall of evidence that you don't actually play the game beyond once a month.
>>56482621>>56482869You misunderstand where smogtists are coming from.They absolutely hate missing and view it as the peak of unfairness. Anything that makes them miss more therefore "has to go".It doesn't matter to them what checks or counters exist. Missing is inherently evil, and increasing it even worse, in their eyes.
>>56484240Why do you need unnecessary randomness if there are so many supposed counters to it?
>>56471501Blissey is much more passive than Snorlax. It would turn Gen 2 into the stallfest (you) think it is.
>>56484246Why do you need stall teams if there are so many supposed counters to it? I would much rather play against a batton pass or sand veil team than a stall team.
>>56484253Stall isn't even good anymore. You're a decade late.
>>56468208Trying to prop up a standard for a competitive format that GameFreak does not balance for at all anymore
>>56484250no it wouldn't and you're confusing me for someone else
>>56474976He already saw that the Kyurem had Freeze-dry, but decided to keep Tapu Fini in to setup? Baffling choice.
>>56484246Hey smogtist, there's a simple fact you consistently try to ignore about Pokemon:it's in the gameYour fanfic ideals of what is and isn't "necessary" mean nothing in the face of the game's essence.Pokemon is fundamentally about utilizing your options and adapting to what others choose. Smogtism is about reducing the amount of options in order to make the game easier and thus less frustrating to play.
>>56484229I just wanted to brag about being a room owner but also I was more privy to the behind the scenes shit
>>56484333share somewhatever doesn't incriminate which room or your identity
>>56484240No it was actually too strong, aswell as random and none of the counters he made up work. Neither in other matchup nor even in the one he wanted to counter.
>>56484253Ironically stall is the only playstye that can actually deal with most of the broken pokemon that get banned. Balance teams do not have the luxury of using 3 unaware pokemon, while stall can always go Dozo if an opponent sets up.
>>56484370there's a global driver (who only got there cause his brother is like a Smogon og) who would identify female users and try to get them fasttracked into auth positions in his rooms so he could get in their pants
>>56484480all wrong
>>56484584classic nepotism and abuse of powersee it all on the time on Smogon University PS!.
>>56484240>Niggas REALLY trying to paint Evasion as perfectly fair and balanced and pretending like anyone against Evasion is le evilLittle Timmies are genuinely pathetic. They’ll cope this much rather than admit Evasion is a bad mechanic.
Frankly, Smogon doesn’t ban enough shit in the game and takes way too long to ban things.I remember playing Gen 5 and found out the hard way that Bright Powder was legal, and later on in Gen 6 that Sand Veil/Snow Cloak were unbanned. This is despite both increasing evasion and a normal person would think “oh these must be banned under the evasion clause”.It wasn’t until Gen 8 when they finally decided to ban that shit along with King’s Rock.Or how about in Ubers and Doubles OU how Dynamax took way longer to be banned despite being clearly broken? Both metas were unusable for that period of time when Dynashit was allowed.
>>56484863I'll never forget the XY game I lost because we were both down to our last mon and he had bright powder.
I just play Natdex and it seems fine to meYes, everything is obscenely powerful, but I'd prefer a metagame where matches are fast with Pokémon dropping left and right over a metagame that's incredibly fucking slow because the wall breakers can't do their job and stall is king.
Why is paralysis allowed? It makes you miss turns
>>56485088Honestly shouldn't be allowed either. My only guess is that lowering the speed of Pokemon as a status has some competitive value outside of cheesing. It's funny too since they'd ban far less moves with a paralysis clause than recent sleep clause as there are only 3 paralysis inducing status moves and Nuzzle, and way more sleep inducing status moves.
>>56485124There is the difference that unlike sand veil or bright powder you actually need to click a move for para and the most common one, thunder wave, has the counterplay of using ground types. I imagine full para is not that popular of a mechanic though.
>>56469833Lucrezia or Isotte
>>56484276It being in the game doesn't mean it has to be allowed. Calyrex-S is also in the game. Doesn't mean it should be allowed in OU.
>>56484276>muh fishul
>>56484276Do you have any sort of experience with any PvP game besides Pokemon?It's really common, especially for older games, for the community to ban things.
>>56485401It only really stopped being commonplace when publishers started to put their finger into that pie.
>>56472386Your fault for not having inner focus or knock off. If the strategy is wide spread them precautions need to be taken against it to not only combat it but dissuade it.
There are plenty counterplays for statuses.You can't poison Steel or Poison types unless you have Corrosion, but even that can be stopped by Safeguard which prevents all status conditions.Ice types can't be frozen, Fire types can't be burnt, Electric and Ground types can't be paralyzed and Spore doesn't work on Grass types or abilities that prevent sleep.Some Pokémon count on being statused like ones with Guts and Poison Heal.It's far from unstoppable.
>>56485427Inner Focus is on a total of 25 Pokemon (few of which are LC) in SV.The amount of Pokemon that can hold King's Rock is literally of them.Now ignoring the fact that most of the time you're giving up a much more useful ability (in singles at least, sometimes in doubles), how the fuck are you supposed to fully counter every King's Rock user with 1 Pokemon? Like say your Inner Focus Pokemon is Dragonite and the opponent has any Ice move. Guess you're shit out of luck since Dragonite will likely be oneshot.And Knock Off ain't a counter either even if its more common. Like how about your opponent being faster than your knock off user? Or your opponent not being a retard and not letting you knock off their King's Rock?Also this has nothing to do with how you're comparing shielding/blocking (a fundamental defensive mechanic in fighting games) to King's Rock (could be removed from the game and barely anyone would noticed)
>>56485455>Electric and Ground types can't be paralyzedbody slam, bounce, etc says otherwise
>>56484788classic smogonigger reading comprehension
>>56485291that's simply needing to ban all legendaries
>>56485401Commonality =/= Commendability, no matter the case
>>56485489You speak as if you know what every (viable) King's Rock user would be. You do not.
>>56485539Electric types have been completely immune to Paralysis since Gen 6Also Covert Cloak is an item that blocks secondary effects of moves like Para and Flinch
>>56485029Speaking of Natdex, they JUST banned Gouging Fire to Ubers, not happy about that.
Stopped following them after the retarded Sleep Move Clause. Trying to "follow in game logic" doesn't work when all in game battles have a timer that ends the battle. Either implement it fully or don't bother at all, instead of some dumb half measure to keep Darkrai and Iron Valiant around
it's unbelievable that they banned dynamax
>>56468208All the bans OU is extremely stale no wonder national dex is overtaking it
>>56486532then the jannies got rid of NDOM ladders just to force people into playing the shit meta no one is happy with
would Pokemon suck if there weren't damage ranges and crits?
>>56486532Yeah, definitely would be less stale if every game was palafin, chi-yu, iron bundle and flutter mane.
>>56486766> iron bundle flutter maneDefinitely broken mons > palafinpalafin isn’t even that good it too slow
>>56482978>bad solutions that don't work for a metagame>these solutions are bad because they're bad in a bracket where the thing they're meant to solve is not even presentdefine metagame, retard
>>56487619You're misunderstanding. He's suggesting solutions that don't work and he's suggesting them in a metagame that he's obviously clueless about.
>>56482869>Gen 27 comes out>Introduces a new Pokemon with a new ability that autowins games Exodia style, but not if your opponent has that same Pokemon or has Cosmog or some other shitmon in their party.>You win the match once all Pokemon that prevent the Exodia style win faint>Smogon, for obvious reasons, bans this Pokemon>”WAH WAH WHY DID YOU HAVE TO BAN NIGGOTKIKE! YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO ADAPT TO IT AND EVOLVE THE METAGAME!!!”Why don’t adapt to these nuts?
>>56487701>instawin exodia mechanic is the equivalent of 25% evasion on a shitmonholy smogautist hysteria
>>56487701>cacturne gets pulled out>i use my lvl 89 random ev spread from leveling (i'm 10 and have no idea what that shit is)>i use any fire move that isn't ember or fighting that isn't low kick and your shit dies, but i have to beat the astronomically high odds of... 3/4
>>56487722>I don’t know how analogiesThat’s the point of the analogy, anon.You’re supposed to go to extremes so that it’s easier to understand things.The part you need to understand is that just because X has counters, that doesn’t mean X isn’t overpowered. Especially when said counters are either X itself or otherwise dogshit you’d never consider using.
>>56487737>Especially when said counters are either X itself or otherwise dogshit you’d never consider using.Same how Jynx was also dogshit in gen2 but is OU now? Same how Charizard was dogshit until niggas realised that hey he doesn't eat shit to spikes?You don't know the definition of what a meta is, you're a retard who netdecks comps without thinking.Also, i don't think slotting 1(one[singular]) aerial ace on a pokemon that can outspeed a base 55 speed is some "bend over backwards use super non conventional means" counter.
Evasion bad is pure hysteria in any game, it is something coddled, bitchy whiners who cannot stand when things don't go their way complain about. They choose not to take it into account and refuse to use counters because they're not just blanket good against everything.Take lol of legends and dota for example, the former has a playerbase which almost unanimously agrees that "evasion bad", whereas the latter has heroes which have up to 75% evasion and can build items to increase it on top of that (obvs it has counters, but as of now they are shit and you simply choose to roll with it). The game with the evasion (with a plethora of other factors, but this one adds to them) is much more interesting, variable and complex than the one without. This is also reflected in the pro scene of each game (pros adapt the most well and thus bitch the least) where lolpros bitch and moan about everything, whereas dota ones very rarely and just play the cards they are given.tldr; kiddie game manchildren refuse to adapt and hate when things do not go their way
>>56487729When you switch in he sets up sub, then he leeches while you try to break the sub and if you miss you've lost
>>56487774>Being against evasion is just hysteria!>Check out [completely different game series that has drastically different mechanics and meta]!No, fuck off retard.Boohoo. Smogon banned your crutch strategy.Why don’t you take your own advice and adapt to a meta without evasion bullshit? Or adapt by playing AG instead crying like a bitch that your luck based strategies are banned?
