Have we humbled ourselves enough to admit that it was a mistake and that we need to go back?
Genwar thread
>>56926287>yet another goddamned genwar thread
>>56926295Not a single generation was said and it doesn't have to do with a specific generation. Try again.
>>56926287Any move that has ever been both physical and special in the history of the franchise should be allowed to match whichever stat is higher. If Machamp uses Fire Punch, it's physical. If Alakazam uses it, it's special. There, problem solved.
>>56926372But then you can't run mixed sets.
>>56926419Yes you can. Earthquake would always be physical, Psychic would always be special, etc. This would only be for moves that were changed in the split, like Leaf Blade and Ancient Power.
>>56926287no.
>>56926440>grey SneaselYiikesWe really need to go back
>>56926443Retard
>>56926440sneasel in gen 3 is better than sneasel in gen 4
Normie>Post Split is the bestReddit>Pre Split is the bestRedpilled>Gen 1 Special stat is the best
>>56926287Going back wouldn't fix anythinggen 4+'s biggest mistake wasn't the split, it was introducing too many OP moves. Just gen 4 on its own introduced Stealth Rock, T-Spikes, Close Combat, Draco Meteor, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz. Gunk Shot, U-Turn, Volt Switch, a bunch of new priority moves, etc etcI think this killed set variety far more than the split did. The general power level jumping from an environment where most moves were around 90 BP to an environment where most are around 120 doesn't leave you with any room to experiment with niche coverage options; you need to squeeze out the maximum damage in every turn or else you're gonna get rekt
>>56926484Shut up, Alakazam.
>>56926489this, in order to "go back" you'd basically have to put harsh penalties on fucking everything like>close combat reducing ALL stats>turning self-switching moves into shit like Circle Throwetc., but some of which are actually impossible such as the weather wars
>>56926489>>56926546I forgot that Pokemon tend to learn more shit as well. Superpower is given to so many more things now whereas in Gen 3 it was learned by like... what, the Regis and Deoxys?
>>56926553yeah, superpower (THE gen 3 fighting move, aside from focus punch and sky uppercut) was mostly legendary-only aside from nidoqueen.now in s/v it's a casual fucking tm lmao
>>56926287on hand i get the pro split argumanet but i do think the game was more interesting before the split when types were limited to one attacking stat. many anons have said before that part of the problem with gen 4 is that it has too much power creep (introduces a lot of 80-90 base power moves with 100% accuracy and no drawbacks) i wouldn't mind something like a gen 1-3 hack in which the split exists but is limited. for example, Psychic can never be physical, Ice Punch is the only physical Ice move (or perhaps Ice Ball and Icicle Spear if it's gen 3 in particular), Special Steel can't be physical outside of Doom Desire and Hidden Power, etc.>>56926372sounds like a cool idea, what about moves in gen 4+ that would have used a different stat if they were introduced earlier (Zen Headbutt would be special, Power Gem would have been physical, etc.)?
>>56926546>impossible such as the weather warsbut the weather abilities were already changed to last only five turns like the regular weather moves
>>56926593yeah, but going back would imply that weather abilities become infinite.if they stay at 5 turns, that's a pretty big nerf to tyranitar, whose whole shtick is punishing leftovers
>>56926586Modern Emerald kinda has this, where you can play Emerald with the split, but it mostly keeps to the vanilla Emerald movesets and there's only a tiny handful of later moves introduced to help round out certain types, and nothing too OP at that. It's just stuff like Poison Jab and Dragon Pulse that's mainly on the same level as moves already in gen 3. The hack literally put Annihilape in the game but makes it so it can't learn Rage Fist. They even buffed Leech Life to 60 BP instead of 80 (didn't stop me from destroying Sydney with Ninjask)
>>56926287Bait. and that's all you'll get.
>>56926586>Special Steel can't be physical outside ofI don't know why the fuck I typed it like that but I meant to say "Special Steel doesn't exist outisde of"
>>56926287Its a moveset problem not a split problem but yes DPP did a bad job It got better every gen tho until gen 8 removed a bunch of moves and gen 9 went totally insane straight up removing moves from Pokemons movesets that had since the 2000's and only got some of them back in updates (Weavile losing knock off)
>>56926469holy btfo
>>56926484that's not congruent, nitwit
>>56926489Very true but Volt Switch is Gen V and half if not most moves were sub 90 bp.
>>56926556>THE gen 3 fighting movethat's Brick Break
>>56926553GameFreak always takes low availability moves of a debut generation and turns it into fanfic, handing them out like candy in the very next generation, which only gets worse the further out.Bug type signature move of Heracross Megahorn in Gen II -> Rhydon coverage option in Gen III
>>56926287Thats not the problem. Lack of HP on pokemon is.
>>56926489I perfectly agree with everything you said. Back then 120BP moves had severe drawbacks (stats were overall lower too, with pokemon with very high stats such as Salamence not actually being able to do that much with it due to the lack of STAB, or relatively weak stab, such as Tyranitar's Rock Slide), such as Superpower making your next move weaker and more susceptible to taking damage, or Blizzard having unreliable accuracy so you'd have been safer just using Ice Beam. Even recoil moves such as Double Edge had the disadvantage of not being able to hit anything super-effectively. The strongest move without any severe drawbacks back then was Earthquake, and that was with plenty of good pokemon immune to ground to freely switch in. You also had plenty of shitmon with viable strategies in the upper tiers. Pokemon might not have ever been intended with cometitive battling in mind, but back then, when there were barely any tournaments even, GF cared a lot more about balancing the game for some reason. The only thing I wish never existed in gen III is Sand Stream. There's no reason for anything to be able to summon permanent damage-inducing weather that negatively impacts most pokemon and only benefits a select few, already good pokemon, such as Metagross and Swampert. Drought and Drizzle were fine back then because they did no damage, were inaccessible outside of ubers, and they could easily be cancelled by each other or Air Lock. Also, rain made Kyogre easier to hit with Thunder and sun made Groudon easier to hit with Solarbeam. I think Spikes were fine, as you had to sacrifice 3 turns to make them do any considerable damage, and they hurt everything equally besides pokemon immune to ground. Stealth Rock just takes away half of the HP of the likes of Moltres, whose types weren't anything spectacular in the first place.
>>56926484Ascended>Physical merge is the best
>>56926287nah your birth was
>>56926469>sneasel in gen 4anon...
Nah fuck you. Best mechanical tweak of the series and only faggot children think differently.
>>56927176How do I use weavile in gen 3?
>>56928514Why would you play Gen 3?>No exploitable charm like Gen 1 or 2>No Phys/Spec split like Gen IV+Literally the worst generation
>>56928568Hoennbabs like to think their childhood wasn't just the awkward middle phase between fad and phenomenon.
sinnohfetuses gaslit themselves into believing it's more important than it really is. The elemental punches were powercrept out, electric and fairy still have no good physical moves, etc.
>>56928611Fairy has Play Rough which is objectively better than all of Electric's physical options and even some other types like Psychic and Ghost
>>56928620Play Miss sucks and has poor distribution. But my point still stands, many types don't have any decent options for both attacking stats so the split did basically nothing for them.
>progress bad bekuze i gruw up
>>56926287team preview sucks, let me hide my mons thanksthe power of keeping that last mon hidden only for it to btfo of the opponent when you bring it out fuck you zoroark
>>56928642Illusion as an ability was dead on arrival. It made Zoroark unpredictable, but it debuted in the same generation as Team Preview, making it predictable, and thus worthless. What were they thinking?
>>56928642>>56928677I'm more inclined to believe that team preview was introduced because they had no intention of using console games for competition anymore.
>>56926287Ah, NO?
>>56928568Because Gen III is the purest form of Pokemon with the least bullshit.
>>56926556>now in s/v it's a casual fucking tm lmaoMeanwhile Game Freak continues to be a bitch over physical Electric and special Rock.And let's not forget how Meganium and Typhlosion still have shit movepools.
>>56929291Mono-grass and mono-fire always have shit movepools if they're not gimmick or shillmons.
Stop bumping yawnfag threads, newfags
>>56929224it has EVs and IVs which are the most bullshit mechanics to ever exist in pokemon
>>56929411>stop discussing pokemon games on the pokemon board
>>56926287
>>56928568>Why would you play Gen 3?>No Phys/Spec split like Gen IV+You answered your own question
Anti-splitfags are stallfags mad that Skarmory can’t just tank every physical attack in the game when Flare Blitz exists now.>>56929555Alakazam and Gengar prefer the split. The elemental punches sucked and having special Ghost/Fighting moves is way better.
>>56929380Don't you just love it when a Pokemon gets fucked over because Game Freak has a certain mindset for a certain type?Honestly there's quite a few Pokemon that would be far better in Palworld than in the Pokemon games. For example Pokemon with bad typings wouldn't be sodomized in Palworld because the type chart there isn't a clusterfuck and there isn't any Kanto dicksucking either.
>>56928568>Gen 2>>exploitable charmFuck that. Gen 2 is fun to play casually, but anything more than that is absolutely atrocious.
>>56929557Anon don't reply to me with "I'm a dick sucking faggot" I don't want a (You) like that>>56929754I hate Gen II comp too, I don't really value any Pokemon game on its competitive factor because most of the games that focus on it are worse than the ones that don't
the physical special split is awesome
Splitfags are campaignshitters mad that they have to learn the game beyond "me use STABs and moves that match highest stat"
>>56929789>gen 3>hitmonchan is A+ rank NU>gen 4>hitmonchan is A+ rank NUwow so awesome
>>56929805who cares about competitive I just like hitting hard with the elemental punches
>>56929794That’s just Gen 3 as well but often without both STABs.>b-but muh Psychic Metagross!!!! Muh Focus Punch Alakazam!!!Garchomp often runs Fire Blast and other Pokemon run mixed sets in post-split metagames. Cope.
>>56929766I like Gen 1, 3, and 4 competitively but everything after that just completely fucking missed me.
>>56929844As of October in Gen 5's meta? Sure doesn't seem like it. It runs Fire Fang more often. It runs Fire Blast 20% of the time in Gen 6 and 10% of the time in Gen 7.
>>56929794What's the difference between using Thunderbolt on Gengar to do as much damage as possible and using Shadow Ball on Gengar to do as much damage as possible?
>>56928626Amusingly dark doesn't have a single move that hits for over 100 BP on either side of the spectrum even to this dayIt doesn't matter much because Sucker Punch and Knock Off already make dark moves infuriating to deal with though
>>5693062697.5 is close enough.
>>56929531all the games have an equivalent
>>56930116something something "muh strategy and shit" when its the same unga bunga bullshit as today. Nobody cares about Charizard not having STAB on Earthquake when it rapes everything with it anyway, same with Typhlosion with ThunderPunch
>>56930116because one requires more thought than "hurrr me use move that has same type as pokemon"
>>56930116keeping its base 130 spa in check
>>56930810you don't know as much about competitive pokemon as you believe yourself to, evidently
>>56930819who gives a rat's ass about comp
>>56930829if you don't care about comp then you have no reason to argue the split is better
>>56930812>because one requires more thoughtHow?I'm going for max damage either way.
>>56930833>How?because you need to think more than "hurrr me use move that has same type as pokemon">I'm going for max damage either waywhich post-split, is always "hurrr me use move that has same type as pokemon"
>>56930842>because you need to think more than "hurrr me use move that has same type as pokemon"How is "hurrr me use special move" any smarter?
>>56930805no they don't
>>56929794>>56930812>>56930842
>>56930854Because sometimes the physical move does more damage thanks to the STAB bonus. Pay attention.
>>56930832well what if I don't like it anyway
>>56930812One requires you to only memorize what types are physical and specialThe other requires you to memorize all moves and what category they areOne lets you send Skarmory out on any physical attacker without thought while letting Blissey handle all Special attackers.The other forces Skamory users to actually consider if the opponent is using moves like Flare Blitz or Wild Charge which will deal tons of damage to both Blissey and Skarmory.
>>56930889>Because sometimes the physical move does more damage thanks to the STAB bonus>On Gengar with its base 65 attacklol. lmao even
>>56926433>implying all pokemon have good split stats to make use of that retarded idea
>>56930889252 Atk Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO252 SpA Gengar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 176-208 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
>>56929605>Anti-splitfags are stallfagsThis is a fucking meaningless statement when stallfaggotry exists in every generation up until 8 or 9 or what the fuck ever.
I prefer pre-split because it lowered to power level of Dragon, Dark, Ghosts, etc. I get why people like the split, they don't want their faves to be hampered. What I will never get are people who can't play games without the split, I can't imagine someone being that dumb.
>>56930956Stall will always exist, but it's much harder to beat stall when half of the Pokemon available don't have STAB moves to use and some physical walls can just wall out entire typings.
>>56931013I don't even think stall is at its most powerful in gen 3, bro.
>>56930058which end of the ladder are you posting
>>56930855yes they do
>>56931102nobody runs hard stall in gen 3 because it's extremely impractical
>>56926287bait asideI find it fun to play older games where it isn't a thingweirdly enough static does affect you despite most biting moves being special
This has to be the most retarded take I've ever seen. It's so undeniably stupid that I don't believe it's bait, because no one would sink this low for reactions. I truly hope you never reproduce, the gene pool is already flooded with subpart specimens.
>>56931154so what you're telling me is that stall isn't at its most powerful in the gen without the split
>>56931146no they don't
>>569311401500. Not that it matters, Garchomp uses Fire Blast even less in 1760 for Gen 5 and 7 and about the same in Gen 6
>>56926287>Intoduce new type, Dark>Make it Special so there is an even 50/50 split>Literally only have 1 dark type mon with higher special than physical attack>Highest BP on dark move is 80>Gen 4 comes around>Literally every previous Dark type move becomes physicalEven if you think pre-split had some mechanical value it is dumb to insist it was implemented in any kind of way that makes sense.
I don't care which is more competitive I care that biting someone with your teeth shouldn't be special and hitting someone with a ball of condensed ghostly energy shouldn't be physical.
>>56926287IVs and event exclusive content are worse if you want to go back to ancient history?
>>56931195correct
>>56931102And that's entirely down to sandstorm keeping it in checkIf you want to see how stall functions pre-split and without perma sandstorm, look no farther than gen 2
>>56931502the gen that people insist isn't stall?
>>56931204No, they actually do - they were just called different things.Gens 1 and 2 had DVs, which were just IVs except even more of a clusterfuck because of how they were programmed, and they made female Pokemon and shinies legitimately worthless because both were determined by DVs rather than a different function like in Gen 3 and beyond. Gens 1 and 2's equivalent of EVs was "stat experience," and it was even obtained in much the same way. Every time you knocked out an enemy Pokemon, your participating Pokemon would gain stat experience for each stat, equal to the opponent's base stats. So if you knocked out a Snorlax, for example, all your Pokemon that participated would get 160 HP stat experience. And it was even worse than EVs, because the limit wasn't 252 - it was 65,535.
>>56929531EVs are considerably better than IVs because EVs can be changed much more easily (this wasn't the case in Ruby and Sapphire however, that was introduced in Emerald, there's certain berries that previously didn't ave any effects that now increase friendship and decrease EVs) and you can't have them maxed at all at the same time>>56930805I've noticed that most discussion about IVs is pretty civil (at least in comparison to most vidya related discussion on this board) and it's probably partly for this reason. everybody agrees that IVs are bad and you can't use them as an argument for saying any particular gen is bad because they exist in every single game in some capacity. this topic is almost immune to genwarring
>>56931652>maxed at*maxed out
>>56931558>>56931652yeahit is thus silly to bring up in the context of "genwarring"there are plenty of other mechanical distinctions to focus on when discussing the competitive merit
>>56931502looking at gen 2 ou to surmise possible worlds gen 3 ou is unwise>>56931534gen 2 apologists say a lot of things that are bullshit half-truths
>>56931802i never played gen 2 competitive so i wouldn't know. only thing i recall is rest and snorlax being broken
the split literally ruined the games, we have to go back
>>56931809I'll provide a brief rundown in one post.Because all stats are maxed out in gen 2 ou, things are both bulkier and stronger than they are in other gens.It isn't merely the fact that Snorlax is minmaxed and has only one weakness---which is not merely predictable but also rare---but it has access to a wide and versatile movepool that makes it both unpredictable and dangerous---moves which many mons don't get, and not all are able to take advantage of.It has Flamethrower/Fire Blast and Thunder for its defensive checks (as well as Earthquake for most of the rest), it has Curse to make it both stronger and bulkier, it has Belly Drum to instantly raise its threat level, it can take good advantage of resttalk, it even has Lovely Kiss to status enemies.It's not that Snorlax is broken per se, it's that the ways to check it range from unreliable to piecemeal (e.g. growl and nightmare strats). But it's not an instant win because of 4mss.As for the stall talk goes, the bulk and resttalk mechanics play into that experience heavily, but even more, it's because the movepools are so barren and underpowered that depending on the matchup, making progress against certain teams with certain defensive cores can be excruciating. But that's the fault of both teambuilders; you can easily choose teams that never lead to you having to deal with long or overly long games.
>>56931841is it stall or just that retarded brand of bulky offense that was in gen 8 for a while?
>>56931854there are hard stall teams in gen 2 ou which are not rare in tournament play; but they aren't the majority of teamsmost teams would qualify as bulky offense probably; not balance or semistall because explicitly stallmons are rarely used because they are generally unneeded due to the already difficult bulk of the game's mechanicsit's not like post-gen 2 where you need a regenerator or magic guard or unaware mon on a team you would prefer is offensivein gen 2 ou you don't need to make that same compromisehyper offense is relegated almost exclusively to baton pass
>>56931854Imagine a world where the only held item worth running is leftovers, the only thing you can punish defensive switches with is a single layer of spikes, and yeah, everything has max bulk investment, is constantly going to sleep, you have fuckall for moves to help you break through, and in case you make the mistake of thinking you can boost up, half of your opponent's team is running Roar or Whirlwind. That's gen 2.
>>56931871> only held item worth running is leftoversnot exactly true>the only thing you can punish defensive switches with is a single layer of spikeseffectively true>half of your opponent's team is running Roar or Whirlwindusually not the caseyou can expect at most 2 phazers, usually 1, maybe even sometimes nonehalf would be rare, and 4 perhaps impossibleyou don't need that many and can't afford to spare that much movespace
When I was a youngling, I always assumed this was a thing and so did my siblings, so I didn't even notice it was a new feature for Gen 4.
So which gen is stall the most powerful in?
>>56931925I'm still tempted to say Gen 2, purely because it's the gen where everything takes forever to die.
>>56931925Hard Stall was never powerful until Gen VI. And then in Gen VII it got even stronger.Hard Stall has never been more practical in any gen before or since that duology.
Making alakazam use its attack stat when it throws a punch isn't ruining anything but autistic little children still heavily limpeted to their childhood identity can't accept that.
