>Friend ID Survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScx82fFuZO5JSneihERecx5UKEJv42EGQKYZM3flPh_ERIa-A/viewform>Friend ID Sheet:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DGhOfaMX6D_YUR-P39_OJdVmAl0uacohIRstE9oN9SQ/edit>Tournament results/decklists:https://play.limitlesstcg.com/tournaments/completed?game=POCKET>Upcoming events/datamines/schedule:https://pocket.codex.gg/news/schedule//vp/ battle passwords to battle with other anons (might want to say in thread which one you wanna battle under so others can join you)>/vp/‘s own meta (no random effects, no ex):vpnx>meta decks or high level play:vpmeta>/vp/ anything:vpPrevious: >>57064517
Who else plans on quitting once the mini-set drops and meta is completely ruined?
ez skip. Will wait for the Johto expansion
Mew Ex is gonna fuck up Mewtwo and Zapdos and Charizard
I did it, Reddit!
>Your Pack Stamina has Recovered! :D>You can open a booster pack! :)>open pack>Ratatta, Ratatta, Staryu, Ponyta, CentiscorchI genuinely don't think there's any dopamine left in my brain. I don't know how much more of this I can take.
>>57066081Who would make this
>>57066065>Mythical IslandWasn't expecting I'd be pulling for the peach so soon
Can anyone please tell me how the fuck do you have mei as your travel companion and not be permanently hard the whole time. Like imagine being 15 and being on a journey with her
>>57066102https://www.pixiv.net/en/users/2381252
>>57066090I have no reason to quit but also have no reason to pay money. At minimum, this game is going to just be something for me to turn on to entertain the younger folks in my family like my nephews. I recognize it's not great, but I also don't feel the compulsion to have to necessarily ween myself off from it as I'm not in too deep or anything. And I have some good cards on my account like a couple crowns and rainbows it doesn't make sense to delete.>>57066096Congratulations, anon. That's a pretty good pack with 3 nice hits.
Zeraora and Lucario for the minisetcheck this 7
>>57066090I'm staying until I see if they plan to rotate cards out and make everything I currently own useless. Coming from Yugioh the whole concept of rotation just sounds nasty, but admittedly it does solve some problems like ensuring really old cards that were printed once and suddenly become meta and expensive isn't a thing
>>57066108TCG Pocket?
>>57066108For me, it's Hilda, as far as main Pokegirls go.
>>57066096>crowncringe desu
>>57066118If it's not Lucario EX (Immersive, Crown), then I don't want it.
>>57066116>Congratulations, anon.Thanks bro. Felt pretty good, but also sorta underwhelming. The Porygon is bullshit that I already have multiple of. That's my first Articuno so I still can't play the Articuno deck, and I would have preferred the rainbow one. The Gengar is cool, but that's also my first Gengar. I already have 4 Mewtwos so I definitely don't need a 5th crown rare, but hopefully I can trade it for something. The one I'm happiest about is the Pidgeot, because it's my 2nd FA one and now I can run them together in a deck without it feeling lopsided. Also a bummer that I can't share with anons due to a crown rare that I didn't want. >>57066125yeh :/
>>57066090>and meta is completely ruined?That would matter if the game actually had Ranked. But since it doesn't then i don't give a crap about the meta. I just focus on building the decks i like
Snivy's card is literally just Bulbasaur's but with a recycled Snivy art from an old BW set...
If you get down to it there's not very many basics.
Victrebel is funny. Being able to pull in stuff they retreated several turns ago is great. Hopefully Leaf boosts the deck as much as it seems because switching off of Eggs EX is too expensive.
>>57066161How many grass starters are there, it'd be hard to make them all differentThat said snivy could've had wrap with 10 damage and a coin flip to prevent swapping
>>57066119Unfortunately it's a reality for all card games that aren't Yu-Gi-Oh. But like I've been saying this isint a card game, it's a gatcha. I doubt anything will rotate. Your old stuff will just be powercrept and useless
>>57066124ok but what happened to hershe gets no cardsshe got replaced and we have zero idea where she isher existence just poofed we will never get a trainer card for her
So no trainer fullart in this cuck mini set?
>>57066161That's because even a recycled Snivy is an improvement over Bulbashit.
>>57066161What were you expecting?
>>57066165A1a Exeggcute?If you go second you do -20 damage and get 1 energy towards retreat.(If you go first there's no difference.)
>>57066090>RuinedHave you like never played a video game before? What exactly do you expect a new expansion to do, if not alter the meta? It would be horrible if there was a new expansion and nothing changed there was a new expansion and nothing changed
>>57066090So far, these are the only cards that really stand out to me:>Vaporeon will very likely break water decks>Marshadow will give fighting another decent option for non-ex damage>Mew ex will probably one be run as a one-of in Mewtwo ex but see zero play otherwise>it's super hard to predict how much of an impact Leaf will have on the meta, but it will see a LOT of play
>>57066161Wrong. Bulbasaur has 4 inches on Snivy which will matter when they add the REAL Blaine deck.
>in-game, official site and social media coverage is so bad you have to look at investor- and press-targeted news later to get the full infohttps://pokemon.gamespress.com/Pokemon-Trading-Card-Game-Pocket-Celebrates-60-Million-Downloads-Sincehttps://dena.com/jp/news/5194/
>>57066187I really don't get the point of this card, I don't think it's better than the one we already have
>>57066195Holy fucking SOUL card
>>57066200Most likely a new Exeggutor being printed alongside it. But Exeggutor ex doesn't mind the extra energy, since it has a retreat cost of 3.
I can't get the regular Dragonite card, it's always the full art one...
>>57066200It's a lot more open to being splashed into other decks. I guess that's roughly it as far as advantages go.
>>57066143Hey I mean, at least you didn't hit straight 1 stars, which was always a possibility. Your god pack wasn't wasted, and that's what you should be happy about. Some poor players hit a god pack just to get stuff like Gloom and Charmander and Meowth which were already plenty in reach.
>>57066187Hard to say which is better when Exeggutor's main strength is being a huge early game threat. But that one's probably more meant for a different Exeggutor. I meant the Leaf supporter.
>>57066208>>57066211>>57066187We better get a new one because both of the ones that we have only require one energy, which makes this relatively pointless. >Splashing Possible but... There's still a massive opportunity cost to it
>>57066210Suffering from success
>>57066195This is amazing.
5319549953190568Add me for daily shop tickets
>deliberately tank my MMR in random matches before going for a 5th>get some mouthbreathing retard who manages to lose with a type advantage and me brickingIt works. I never should have doubted.
>>57066200Anon suggested eggs without grass >>57064575 but that gives up t3 attacks which is kind of bad.It maybe helps you run eggs in 2 color decks but even that's a bit weird.>>57066215>Exeggutor's main strength is being a huge early game threat.He's better going first than second and you can still get 80 damage in t4.
>>57066195>fly to america>card gets 2.54 times weakerlmfao
>>57066187New Exeggcute and Leaf are going to be a HUGE buff for the Butterfree variant of Exeggutor. That deck's biggest problem is that it has to retreat Exeggutor every few turns, which is a pain due to the high retreat cost. Being able to retreat for 1 energy in emergencies and getting the extra turn 1 energy are both great.
>>57066195Imagine actually forcing players to learn the height of all Pokemon in the meta decks just to diminish the possibility of a draw 2.
Will Red have a card too?
>1/2 diamond card you want finally shows up in Wonder Pick>1-star FA garbage is in the same pull so it's worth 3 Wonder Stamina
>Misty decks getting a buffCool now they can easily retreat and be ready to go with a use for that extra energy
>>57066244Don't forget, they're functionally immune to Sabrina now.
>>57066241There's already a Red card
I know this might be a controversial opinion, but I think that new blue is ugly, his face looks really off, I don't like that artstyle on him. Maybe the fullart is going to be good.
>>57066159I think meta would actually matter less if we had ranked. If we did, then people could play fun decks in low rank for fun, but since we don't everyone gets obliterated by WAAC tryhards and it will only get worse.
>>57066241I think it's inevitable he'll get one if the other two got ones, just a matter of if it's in this set or a future one. They could theoretically push him back until a Johto expansion since he's on Mt Silver too.
Who will be the new Crown cards?
>>57066193A meta change should increase the number of viable decks, not decrease it.
>>57066260Mew
>>57066224It really doesn't work. I conceded 30 games on both my accounts before attempting 5 wins and it still took me ~35 games on both accounts. I don't know how the MMR is decided, but it's not win rate.
>>57066108Kill yourself cumbrain
>>57066201
>>57066108>>57066108>imagine being 15 and being on a journey with herKnowing myself I'd never make any advances towards her, miss most of the hints (if any) and refuse if she explicitly asked by for a date or sexAll despite me fapping to her or having wet dreams about her at least once a month
>>57066270>I don't know how the MMR is decidedGame attempts to match people who spent the most money with people who spent the least. Simple.
>>57066195I can just imagine if this card was ever meta, in addition to being prepared for your opponent's strategy you would also have to memorize the "length" of popular cards
are people actually upset with this mini expansionso many more possibilities now instead of zergrush your board with pikaex and mewtwoex with gard on bench
>>57066164Heatmor HitmonchanScyther PyukumukuParas DrowzeeWoolooOddish Venonat Bellsprout Ponyta Salandit Squirtle Tentacool Shellder Horsea Pikachu Magnemite Voltorb Blitzle Helioptile Clefairy Gastly Mankey NidoranFMienfoo Ekans Spearow Doduo Eevee MinccinoSizzlipede Poliwag Goldeen FroakieWeedle Exeggcute Staryu Ralts WoobatZubat Cottonee Snom Pidgey
>>57066224It’s all luck, as with anything. Took me several tries with a very good deck to not lose my streak to a turn 1/2 Misty play, and I’m sure the odds of that aren’t high. Hell, I was shitting on people with pic related yesterday for laughs, but really, the deck reduces most games to a single coin flip. At a certain point, you can’t outplay luck.
>>57066288I was hoping for a Dragonite EX, but doesn't look to be happening as the 5th EX will probably just be SerperiorNothing else in the pack captures my interest, maybe Red if he's in there and good, like a tutor for the Kanto starters
>>57066045Thanks, you reminded me that those were a thing. Got two of the Venusaur art cards now after opening like 8 Onix in a row.
>>57066096Friend code please anon
>>57066300I kind of doubt they'd double up on types in a set with only 5 ex Pokemon. And we already know Celebi's in the set.
>>57066300>the 5th EX will probably just be Serperior5th ex is probably Lightning. https://i.4cdn.org/vp/1734011813311540.png
>>57066304The pack is ruined by a crown rare. You can't see it. I would have posted if it was shareable.
>>57066307...pic unrelated?
I think I did pretty alright in this event all things considered. Hopefully you guys managed to get the stuff as well.
>>57066316Pic related. It's barely in the shot but one of the expert solo battles is a Lightning deck.
>>57066090I only want to collects cards, competitivefag, go to play Live instead.
>>57066100i hate how they're so fucking obsessed with trying to make things like the shitty japanese sets>get rid of 10 card packs>shitty cheap silver borders>no guaranteed rares so 9 out of 10 times you're going to be wasting your time pulling fuck all>shit holo patterns>totally not pokemon gym stamps as the promo pack stamps>BUT if you're really lucky you get a god pack just like the irl japanese booster boxes :)
>>57066307Could be Zeraora EX considering Marshadow is in there, or it could be a throwaway like how Nido wasn't EX but showed up in solo battles alongside EX cards
Mew ex is actually a pretty big buff to grass in specific. They really needed a basic ex that could be pumped up to take out big threats, and Mew does exactly that. It's going in my bug aggro list for instance, compared to Aerodactyl or Wiggly ex you're gaining a ton of consistency and deck space.
Scizor when?
>>57066331tomorrow
>>57066317Couldn’t pull another Venu despite going deep, but I don’t really care. I have 2 of the rare version if I ever need the care, so I’m saving the 15 hourglasses I have for something better. Might flair the fucking Onix for my shitty Wiggly/Onix/Golbat deck. Greninja was the big win out of the pack.
>>57066323Oh, okay, I see it now. My bad.
>she still doesnt have the 5 win iconsister... its over
>>57066348stop i cant get past 2 wins ;_;
>>57066181Leave my boy out of this. Snivy a shit compared to Bulbasaur.
>>57066328The Expect-level battles didn't have any non ex decks. Nidoqueen was only in the lower difficulties.It's also worth noting that whatever the card above Mew is has 2 retreat, which doesn't match either of the current ex cards. (hell, Magneton and Eelectrike are the only two lightning Pokemon in the game with a retreat cost of 2)
>>57066358Oh Contrarywise.
>>57066317I have 1 more try in about an hour, but I think that in the end, I didn't make it. Used 15 or so hourglasses too. If I used 15 hourglasses on this one and still managed to not get it, I can only imagine how fucked I'm gonna get when the rare is a good card instead of just alt art.
somehow this game is making me rage more than master duel
Hows your slopstreak bros? For me it's now 16 packs without an EX or better
>>57066328>Could be Zeraora EXCould be.>could be a throwaway like how Nido wasn't EXCould be. But it's Expert Solo Battles.The Expert Solo Battles we've seen so far all have Pokemon ex.>Venusaur ex & Exeggutor ex Deck>Charizard ex & Moltres ex Deck>Starmie ex & Greninja Deck>Pikachu ex & Raichu Deck>Mewtwo ex & Gardevoir Deck>Machamp ex & Marowak ex Deck>Lapras ex & Starmie ex Deck>Venusaur ex & Lilligant Deck>Mew ex & Mewtwo ex Deck>Aerodactyl ex & Marowak ex Deck>Blue & Pidgeot ex Deck
Are Mewtwo and Charizard even playable after Mew comes out?
>>57066339Apparently, the game just wanted to prove me wrong. My last stamina (and 41st pack) gave a 2nd Venu. Neat.
>>57066379WTF do you mean? there is not "rotation" bullshit in Pocket.
>>57066379Yes, because Mew ex will be run mainly in Mewtwo and it can't copy Charizard's attack even if it wanted.
>>57066379Mewtwo is because Psychic decks still need to win somehow. Charizard is suddenly a lot worse.
>>57066379Mewtwo will almost definitely play Mew and Charizard gets a bit more risky I guess.
>>57066379Yes because Mew can't knock out Mewtwo>>57066390We don't know if it copies costs or secondary effects.
>>57066363>>57066376Well isn't this the first time Blue, a trainer card, is mentioned as part of the deck name? So that would throw a wrench into things for predictability too.
>>57066348Didn't you get it d1 in about 10 fights? That shit was pretty easy, maybe you are just bad anon
>>57066390>it can't copy Charizard's attack even if it wanted.Why do you falsely believe this?
Just flipped 8 tails in a row with bonehead, he is now permanently benched.
>>57066390Are you retarded anon? Of course it can.If you think it can't just because you have to discard two fire energies just means you won't have to discard any energy if you don't any fire ones
>>57066407Skill issue
>>57066390As worded, the discard is an effect not a cost. If this were the paper TCG Mew could copy it.
>>57066402OK anon. I'm sure we'll get Togetic ex or whatever you want.
KINGler EXAbility: KILL
>>57066419It's not that serious to warrant a passive aggressive response like that. Just saying they deviated with Blue so they could deviate elsewhere, to keep an open mind.
>>57066343No harm no foul. It's really easy to miss.
>>57066407I wish Marowak ex got a 1 energy light attack like the non-ex version
>>57066424Only if you flip two coins and both are heads
>>57066161Welcome to the PTCG. They've never bothered putting effort into most of the cards.
>>57066427Whatever it is it's a new card. The only 2 retreat Lightning mons we have are Magneton and Eelektrik.
>>57066270I didn't concede, I just took a bad memedeck out for a few spins and then got matched with a dude who misplayed so hard I didn't even have to attack once before he conceded.
Please let Volcarona be goodPlease let it be fucking goodI need it to be good
>>57066436https://i.4cdn.org/vp/1734023055792053.png
>>57066444something like this would be neat I think
>>57066473I just realized that there is nothing in pocket that can burn.
>>57065049
>>57066473I'd be all for this honestly.
>>57066375I haven't been counting, but it's decently long. The last "good" thing I got from packs specifically was a Venomoth because that's one step closer to 150.
>>57066487I don't get it, how is this relevant to my post.
>>57066379Anon, Mew ex is a Mewtwo buff. It's ridiculously circumstantial unless you can accelerate psychic energy, in which case it's a LOT better.
>>57066473Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiwant burning wind~
>>57066397Why can't Mewtwo knock out mew
>>57066505I just don't see A1a having Aerodactyl ex without Old Amber. Maybe we get a straight reprint of the A1 Old Amber though.
>>57066471>magnezone stage 2 is comingholy fuck please give me my boy
>>57066242the remaining 9 cards for my mew all do this to me, they even come in 2 at the same time and I fail to get it. It's breaking my balls but I'll complete it to matter what... (I'm not using my tickets for it but couldn't save more than desired because I had to pull for a good deck). In the process of daily opening, I got a full charizard, full pikachu and full mewtwo. But starmie and hypno evade me like a plague...
>>57066530Mew can use Mewtwo's attack for less energy, meaning in early game if Mewtwo EX is active Mew can potentially get online first.
Every single deck is going to run Mew EX.
>>57066471
gachaslop
>>57066570Pikachu won't because the typing is wrong. But it's 130 HP w/ 1 retreat and that's good enough for Zapdos ex to be playable.
>>57066584If the electric EX is Raichu EX, it might.
>Blue will add mindgames to the Mewtwo EX vs Mewtwo EX matchupkino
would you guys rather have your favorite pokemon in this game become the worst EX card but awesome artwork, a decent non-ex card with horrible artwork
I don't know how I feel about this game at the momentSo many EX cards that can one-shot basic pokemon on turn 2, which severely restrict the amount of cards worth playing unless you want to lose 80% of your games, and we're only at the very beginning of the power creepPlus the type advantage that's so powerful if it was an item it would be in everyone's deck and here it's active just like thatI like that it's coin flippy, makes for a nice casual mobile game to kill some time during the day, but it also feels like a remarkably mediocre and badly thought out card game that would never have existed if it wasn't tied to the pokemon franchise
>>57066605Awesome artwork, I will use it no matter how bad it is gameplay wise.
>>57065524Nidoqueen ex with Rivalry ability
>>57066605>ArcanineI don't have to imagine
>>57066605I would rather it not be illustrated by PLANETA CG Works.
>Jirachiit's going to be a supporter EX rather than an attacking EX
You just know
>>57066605Decent non-ex card with horrible artwork.I've played enough cards in this game to know that even if you really like a Pokemon, if the card's bad it's just not gonna be a fun time in the sweat queue where everyone is running meta 24/7 and no one misplays because there's only ever 2 choices.
>>57066626oh stop itSTOP ITSTOP POSTING THE SAME THINGSHE is NOT a WHITE womanONLY WHITE women FUCK DOGS (YJK YJK YJK)She is a pure traditional Japanese woman, and they DONT fuck dogsokay? so STOP IT
>>57066637Counter argument.
>>57066637She doesn't fuck dog anon, she just wants to get knotted by Arcanine.
>>57066637>actually mind broken by a waifu poster
>>57066626I would probably find her cuter if she didn't have such gross witchy nails.
>>57066647I like her nails.
Mew EX makes Arbok better.
>>57066637She always looked like a dog-human to me
>>57066677Mew EX makes Mewtwo EX better
>>57066570 Every single deck is going to try Mew ex, then quickly realize it's just not worth the deck slot. It CAN be good against a few decks like Charizard, but it's a pretty worthless card against anything that can't OHKO itself due to its high energy cost and low HP.I think Mewtwo is the only deck that's actually going to keep it around, since Gardevoir can make it cheaper.
what's #10 that im missing?
>>57066677Does it? Arbok could already kill mewtwo ex in two hits.
>>57066688Mewtwo premium, no?
>>57066688 Mewtwo
>>57066688mewtwo promo from this month's premium missions
>>57066605The art for my least favorite Pokémon in the franchise could be absolutely ugly as shit but if the card is good I’d still use it. That being said, playability >>>>>>> looks
>>57066688>He didn't wait for the mini set to use the trial
>got 2 star moltres on my alt account to a wonder pickFml
>>57066688You know speaking of, promo #8 is still hidden, isn’t it? Any clue yet what that could be? Another shop item?
>>57066686Okay. >>57066690Yes, because every deck is going to be running Mew EX, and Arbok doesn't kill itself. >>57066687>I think Mewtwo is the only deck that's actually going to keep it aroundI disagree. I think multiple decks will run at least a 1 of Mew EX.
>>57066703Popular theory is Charizard for January to go with Mewtwo/Pikachu, but could just be a random trainer card they're waiting for the mini set to add.
>45 pulls>only 1 venusaurit's over
>>57066065where can I see the new cards?
>>57066703The best sounding guess I've heard is Battlepass Charizard for January, in slot 8 to keep the order consistent with Genetic Apex. I've also heard speculation that it'll be a Supporter, in slot 8 to be next to Professor's Research. But we don't know.
>>57066706Anon, if you're playing Mew ex as a tech, you're not going to put it on the field at all if you're going against Arbok. Unless you open it as your only basic, which is one of the big reasons Mew ex won't see much play.
>>57066626i hate this fucking arstyle
>>57066721So what you're saying is that Mew EX is not going to make Arbok better. That's a very interesting argument that you're making.
Always nice when the Golbat plan comes together.
>>57066703>Another shop item?That makes me wonder if we'll get any new trainers in the shop with the miniset. Should we be saving our trans tickets?
>>57066719https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUYHC2ReohA&ab_channel=TheOfficialPok%C3%A9monYouTubechannel
I hope the next premium is for Mew just so Charizard's coin and alt art and so on can be free like Venusaur
>>57066626She's most excited about farfetch'd
>>57066736all the existing cards in the shop cost only two tickets so with just your daily freebies you'll be able to get two. No point in saving.
Alright I finally pulled my second eggs. What's a good list for executor ex?
>>57066118Eww
>>57066737I saw the trailer but that's not all of them, right?
>>57066719https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUYHC2ReohAandhttps://press.pokemon.com/en/releases/Pokemon-Trading-Card-Game-Pocket-Celebrates-60-Million-Downloads-Sinceare everything we've seen. No update to be datamined yet.
>>57066733Powerful kek. It's always funny to see a mewtroon get stomped.
>>57066746I've had the most success with Wigglytuff (I only have 1 Wiggly though). Exeggutor EX is his own deck and he don't need no other manz, so just feel it out yourself. As another anon pointed out earlier, I think Mew EX will probably be very good for Exeggutor EX.
>>57066746Your options are either Venusaur or Butterfree right now. Venusaur is the best right now, but the Butterfree variant is going to get a LOT better once Leaf releases.
>>57066626I fucking love this art style
With the info we got for the mini-set, should I be using my free pulls to try for Pikachu ex or Mewtwo ex? I have everything I need for each deck, just not the ex's themselves.
>>57066065Come bet the meta with Arboks and Pidgeots with us!
Leaf is going to help my Lapras EX Butterfree deck
>>57066746a full venu line or butterfree. 2 erika's, 2 heals, 2 xspeeds. >>57066750we only know about the cards in the trailer at the moment, nothing else has leaked yet.
>>57066752Ah, thanks
>>57066750The press release >>57066752 has better pictures of a few cards but the only additional information beyond what's in the video is a screenshot with a Serperior binder cover and the Expert Solo Battle screenshot.The video description says>The Mythical Island expansion features over 80 cards, including five new exciting Pokémon ex cards, five new Trainer cards, and gorgeous immersive cards ready to bring you into the wondrous world of Pokémon.So at least 81 cards (including alt arts and A1 reprints?), 5 of them are new trainer cards (not necessarily supporters), 5 of them are new ex cards, and at least 2 of them are available as immersives.
I will attempt one chain of battles per day and post my results.>day 1: 0 wins>day 2: 0 wins>day 3: 1 win>day 4: 0 winsIts not going so well so far, but there's still 3 days left to try. Hopefully I can at least get the 2 win emblem before the event ends.
>>57066765Why are you gey?
Saving all my hourglass for the inevitable Gardevoir EX immersive and Rosa trainer card.
>>57066786What deck are you playing Retard-chan?
>>57066781>Players can continue looking forward to future Pokémon Trading Card Game Pocket updates, including a holiday countdown campaign beginning on Dec. 24, 2024, allowing Trainers to receive in-game gifts at no cost. hope the christmas gift is more hourglasses, so far I don't want anything from this upcoming pack.
>>57066791How do I post my deck?
>>57066065>mankey on the coverWhat are the odds A1a has a reprint of the P-A Mankey?
>>57066786Try again in 2-3 hours. The queue is apparently easiest at this time. I went on an 11 game streak with Greninja-Tentacruel.
>>57066786Why only try once a day? Matches take like 5 minutes at most
