>>57179495
Pokemon fans should stick to watching LPs on YouTube if they don't want to do anything except pressing A to win (like Gen6~Gen9)

>>57179495
Just change your coordinates with pkhex
>b-but it's not legit!!
and? you can also unlock the bw2 hard mode this way

every starter in gen 4 can learn rock climb

>>57179556
But muh Nuzlocke1!1!1!1!

>>57179556
None of Red's team even uses HMs. Final battle should be both trainers going full power, and not rely on field moves to get to the battleground. Narratively, mechanically, something doesn't sit right.

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>>57179495
It's not.

tfw the game places requirements on the player and limits what you can do to force you to strategize

>>57179495
HMs in general are cut from the same cloth as Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy and is meant to be played around. It's unfriendly game design like this that can make some of the late game dungeons a challenge by forcing the player to think around the limitations set by the HM checks. This is just an extension of the discussion about HMs that I've seen a million times by now. I understand why people would consider them a bad design choice, but I don't agree.

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It's a 90 power Normal attack with a slight chance of inflicting confusion. And almost every fully evolved Pokemon can learn it. What exactly is the problem? Was Mr. Twitter doing a NFE run or something?

>>57179733
>almost every fully evolved
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Rock_Climb_(move)

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>>57179739
RIP to those who were doing an all bird/bug/rat/fish shitmon run, I guess.

>game challenges you by giving a party member one less move
>Pokemon 'fans' can't wrap their head around this
I guess they're not really much of a fan though if they hate the best games/region.

>>57179739
>All three Gen 2 starters can learn it, even Meganium who looks like it couldn't climb shit
Gee I wonder why that is

>hgss
>johto defenders
expertedly crafted bait
but gen 2ers, who survived the years of tranny discord raids, do not care about literal whos on twitter and do not care about hgss. the real soul is in gen 2 gsc

>>57179495
why do people want to hate hgss so badly?

>>57179755
>game "challenges" the player by requiring them to have a party member equip an attack that's only slightly weaker than a max friendship Return

C'mon, son.

>>57179495
if your criticism took 15 years to think of then obviously it didn't matter that much

>>57179778
It's guaranteed engagement. And also people who make their love of one specific pokemon gen a staple of their personality feel mogged by HGSS's two regions and need to knock the games down a few pegs in order to feel adequate.

I noticed that nobody mentioned Steven in Emerald doing the exact same thing where you're forced to use a suboptimal move in the toughest non-facility battle of the game :)

It's really less of a criticism of HGSS and more of Gen 4 in general. On a mechanical level I like the requirement, but from a player experience standpoint it kinda sucks. The solution to this was to make HM useage tied to species back when they changed Gen 4's data structure, but even then Rock Climb has poor distribution for some godforsaken reason so if you're somebody who boxes your starter you're going to have to have some other specific semi-popular Pokemon. It feels less bad when Rock Climb blocks of an area with literally one item, which happens a ton in HGSS to specifically lock some evolution methods to after Blue.
>>57179798
The difference is Waterfall both has pretty good distribution and is a solid water move (although it being redundant with Surf, especially in Gen 3, is a major knock against it if you don't happen to be using Surf as coverage on some weirdo that can learn it because Surf has even better distribution). Normal coverage is, frankly, not fucking coverage unless you're in Inverse format.

>>57179804
>(although it being redundant with Surf, especially in Gen 3, is a major knock against it if you don't happen to be using Surf as coverage on some weirdo that can learn it because Surf has even better distribution)
This makes it just as bad as Rock Climb to me. There's almost no scenario where I'd want to click Waterfall over Surf in a pre-Gen 3 game outside of Doubles. At least with Rock Climb there's merit in using it for the confusion proc.

>>57179814
>pre-Gen 3
pre-Gen 4*

>>57179778
Pokemon's a franchise crawling with nostalgiafags. So people who didn't experience HGSS are going to nitpick whatever they can about it in order to make their favorite gen seem better by comparison.

Pokemon fans are so fucking funny, pretending that this is actually some way of adding ""difficulty"" to the game instead of just being a mild annoyance that makes you question why bother
they're the only people that would let gamefreak shoot them in the foot before a race with a snail and thank daddy masuda for the added difficulty

>>57179833
>They only did it for every installment in the franchise until Gen 7, obviously it's a flaw and not intentional game design.

>>57179858
the fun thing is that gen7+ level design is nonexistent

>>57179858
Yes. Intent does not mean something is good lest we start defending every shitty decision they've ever made.
If it was so good they'd never have removed it.

>>57179891
They removed them to simplify the game, look at gen 4 dungeons and then gen 7 dungeons and tell me how the latter is better in any way

>>57179758
>even Meganium who looks like it couldn't climb shit
You make it sound like Meganium having something in its movepool is a bad thing.

>>57179504
rare ivy w

>>57179926
literally anything is better than gen 4 dungeons, all shitty generic time wasting caves
wayward cave floor 1 is probably the worst area in any pokemon game

So no one just used Misdreavus or Lapras and clicked Perish Song?
That frees up a few teamslots

>>57179927
The point is that its design doesn't point to it being able to learn that move, so why can it? Could there be a game design reason that those specific three pokemon were all given access to the move?

>>57179950
lmao you did get lost in there like that little girl, retard

>>57179495
Aren't you supposed to have access to those mons anyways since it is the final boss after all (I assume the guy is talking about Red)?
Also this might not be an HGSS issue but just HMs in general which were fucking annoying. After all you need Rock Climb to access the league in DPPt as well (while still not having access to the NatDex). I don't see why Johto should be the only one to get "hate" for this.

>>57179950
Nah, better than straight railroads and empty sandboxes.

>>57179970
nobody could get lost there, it's just a tedious time waster like everything in sinnoh
you can't even make two "wrong" decisions before getting dead ended

>>57179983
yeah you got lost in there looking for gible probably dumbass faggot

>>57179971
Johto has worse HM usage than DPPt. There’s a poke center right before the league.

>>57179983
>tedious time waster
Then…don’t go in there?

>>57179971
the "problem" is that you can't fight Red with any arbitrary team you want because yocan't fly back to the top of mt silver, in dppt you can simply fly to the league or just switch the mons in the league's pc

>>57180000
Or just don't play any Gen 4 game, that's a much better idea.

>>57180011
yeah, go sit on your dilator and bleed out instead.

>>57180011
Nah, I’m not filtered by simple field moves like a whiny nugen faggot.

>>57179991
>Johto has worse HM usage than DPPt
AHHAHAHAHAHA good one anon

>>57179983
I automatically discard /vp/ posts with the word tedious in them. All it means is that the poster has arbitrarily decided that some insignificant thing is too unbearable for them.

>>57179504
common ivy L

>>57180037
They're both terrible about it, but I think that it does, especially in HGSS.

You can bitch about Defog sure, but Defog is A) Better than Flash was in the original Gen II, and B) Used in like four places. One of them is after-credits and entirely optional. One of them is a single room that you can run through in a straight line and not need Defog. And that leaves just two. Lost Tower is optional in Platinum, and also right next to Route 210, which is right before you go to Canalave, where the Move Deleter is. Every time I play Sinnoh, I put Defog on my bird/bat after I get my fifth badge (Be it Fantina or Wake), do Lost Tower, go to Celestic Town, and then go straight to Canalave and delete Defog. It's really not as bad as people insist it is.

And besides Lost Tower, you don't need Defog in any of them. If you want, you can just equip yourself with Swift/Magical Leaf/Shock Wave/Feint Attack/Magnet Bomb/Shadow Punch/Aerial Ace/Aura Sphere and leave the fog up, or even not do that and just suffer with the accuracy debuff.

Also Defog has at least been vindicated by history. If Defog's a TM in BD/SP for old time's sake, then the competitive people will love that. When was the last time any of you actually used Whirlpool?

Unlike Defog, Whirlpool has multiple areas that it's used in, where you have to use it, and while they do mostly only appear after you have access to the Move Deleter, they're not all located next to each other, and if you do get rid of it immediately after its mandatory story uses, you're still going to be blindsided by it in more places afterwards. Special mention to Route 27, which requires Whirlpool to fully navigate, but doesn't have a Pokemon Centre at either end. If you didn't bring a Water HM mule you've got to either backtrack to Cherrygrove or put it on a main Pokemon, which probably already has both Surf and Waterfall.

>>57180060
Gen III also has three Water HMs, but they're all at least decent moves. Again, when was the last time any of youactually used Whirlpool?

Sinnoh might have Rock Smash in its Victory Road and in Stark Mountain, but the latter is optional and the former has no major battles in it, so it's perfectly viable to bring a mule instead of your full party. Meanwhile Gen II puts Cut trees and Rock Smash boulders in Kanto, including inside a gym in the case of the former.

And sure, Rock Climb isn't great either. It's a worse Strength with a random-as-all-hell secondary effect. But it's at least decently strong and I don't feel too put out by having it on my Pokemon for the back third of the game. And hey, I don't need to have Rock Climb to fight rematch Cynthia or Survival Area Barry, the two strongest bosses in the game. Which is more than I can say for HGSS, which put Rock Climb in the game and made it mandatory in order to access Red for no reason. Maybe the Gen IV code mandated that there be eight HMs, in which case, fine, throw it in, use it for some optional items and maybe to get into Moltres' room in Mt. Silver and maybe Embedded Tower. But don't make it a requirement for the final boss of the game.

>>57179495
>hgss
Nu-pokemon games like gen 4 are noncanon. Not an issue in the originals

>>57180060
Did you deliberately gloss past that section in Mt. Coronet where you need Strength, Rock Smash, Surf, and Defog or what? Because that one dungeon is worse than the handful of areas in HGSS where you need Whirlpool or Rock Climb.

Strength is probably the worst HM of all. I don't miss HM roadblocks by any extent, and I especially don't miss mindnumbingly shallow boulder puzzles being interrupted by zubat encounters.

>>57180204
You never need Defog
t. never used it in any gen 4 playthrough

>>57180204
>did you forget the room where you literally just run upwards
No, I didn't.

>>57179778
I dunno, but theyre miles ahead of crustal, what with crustal's final rival being level 38 at most, and the champion only hitting level 50 on his ace.

gen 7 ruined the series the ride pokemon music was made for the gayest niggers

>>57180204
i hope you'll find feebas anon

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>>57180261
Why can't you just distribute HMs on your team uniformly?

If you can't make it to the end of the game without having an HM slave then you're a soulless faggot

>>57180293
HM Slaves are cringe tho

Could you imagine the meltdown pokemon fans if a dungeon had a gimmick like ff4's lodestone cavern or ff6's fanatic's tower?

>>57179778
Twitter's infested with engagement bait.
It's not just chuds, tankies, militant atheists, religious extremists, pedophiles, zoophiles, and rape apologists you know.

>>57179504
Based
Only cordsisters disagree

>>57179778
they're just bad games man

>>57179504
>>57179672
>>57179790
Based and true

>>57179495
Even if it was X is a pretty bad place to try having them.

>>57179891
We both know why they removed it and it wasn't because it didn't work.

What’s with all the celebi hate? I am a sub 80 iq individual who struggles to think for themselves so I have to follow guides recommended by TPC to even have a chance to win. Life is so unfair to the intellectually challenged…

you don’t exactly need a competitive team to beat him

>>57179495
Every criticism is a good criticism of HGSS minus those related to the engine.

>>57179778
From the moment I started playing HGSS, excited to do so off the heels of a long time playing Platinum, I was hit with this profound bewildering feeling of disappointment that only grew worse as I played more and more of it, until the end where all my desire to play more of it evaporated.

Back then however I had no idea it was possible for a Pokemon game to be truly badly designed. It would take many years until discussions here opened everyone's eyes to what I now understand probably was not an isolated experience. Johtoddlers had an iron vicegrip on the narrative for decades and would never tolerate anything less than Johto's apotheosis; it took ages for the dogma to finally start being substantially brought into question, and once it did, it caught wildfire fueled by the oppressive and aggravating zealotry of Johtoddlers, their refusal to listen, refusal to admit, and never-ending doubling down.

It's reached the point where it's become personal.

>>57180698
lmao what

nuzlocktrannies aren’t human doe

>>57180713
you didn't explain the disappointment

>>57180740
it wasn't relevant to the response, nor do I imagine my personal reasons would be particularly distinct from the whole of the criticisms levvied against it

no houndoom, no mons I want to use, being underlevelled, emptiness, uninspiring plot, so on so forth

again, my opinion as an individual, which by itself is relatively insignificant, but both a reflection of growing common sentiment as well as a part of that mounting sentiment; take it how you will

>>57179983
How is a completely optional area wasting your time?
Trannies like you are the reason why exploration is dead in these shit games.

>>57180753
gated content

>>57180753
>walk forward
>dead end
>go back a few steps and turn
>repeat a whole bunch while occasionally mashing a to watch the rock smash animation over and over
That's not "exploration", that's padding

>>57179798
A hoenn fan will admit to you that the Emerald Steven battle is a disappointment.

>>57180760
All content is gated, asshole
It came free with not being an open world game

>>57180784
if I have to jump through a hoop to access content right around a corner, then it's gated

>>57180762
that's not how it works, there's one main path but the detours are there for optional items, it's literally the same thing as older ffs, imo it's even better than some like ff9 where it all seems more of an hallway

>>57180808
First of all, not all hoops are made equal. Some of them, like Rock Climb spots or Roch Smash rocks, require an item that you may have missed, while others, like the fucking dancers or the wall of psyduck, are story/progression-based.
Second of all, how is gated content even bad? Is your attention span so low as to not be able to handle having to work towards a goal, especially if that goal is moving forwards into the game? I'd argue that gated content is good, be it as a reward for your achievement (beating the game/beating a boss fight), as a stop-gap so you don't immediately rush into an area your party cannot prevail within, or even a sign that you missed something, because unless the game in question has no backtracking AND you were autistic about checking every which way every npc even alluded to, you will have missed something, be it backtracking or a part of the main quest you have yet to stumble across.
Gated content isn't bad, and just because something is set after the credits doesn't mean you're missing out, unless you genuinely, wholeheartedly believe that once the credits roll, you may not, no, CAN NOT even touch that
>piece of media
any longer.
If so, I just feel pity.

>>57179858
>i-it’s intentional so it can’t be a flaw!
I can’t wait to use this argument next time you screech about the 3D games or the dex cut.

The only valid HGSS complaints are the pacing, distribution, and level curve. Rocket hideout sucks ass, having to put effort into catching a shitmon is retarded, and grinding to Red is AIDS

>>57180864
even XY difficulty was intentional

>>57180883
>having to put effort into catching a shitmon is retarded
?

Playing any game
>Hmm, should I bring this key with me? It might open some doors in the area I'm going to next, and regardless of whether those doors are required, some may have special rewards. But this limits my inventory space, I'll be more limited with healing items, weapons, ammunition, etc. If I don't bring the key and I do end up needing it, I'll create unnecessary backtracking and potentially have to overcome the challenges of the area again. Either way I go, some risk is involved, but if I bring the key and hinder myself, as long as I play well enough, I can get the most benefits.

Playing Pokémon
>Oh my GOOOOD fuck HMs, I don't see why I shouldn't have access to them at all times. Stop hindering me, stop giving me friction, you're stopping me from being Ash Ketchum! I need my shouldermon and my diverse party of six and my traveling companions and Ash doesn't need HMs. I also need the type advantage in every single battle and need to be at least at the same level. The only way I can beat Red's Pikachu is with a level 81+ Ground-type. Yes, I bowl with sides along the gutters, no it doesn't make my victory any less valid.

>>57180963
>playing any game
the game is competently designed to balance risk/reward
>playing pokemon
the game pretends to offer "difficulty" by making itself less fun and handicapping you because it can't be bothered to actually put in the effort to offer a challenge

>>57179504
>implying every Pokémon game isn't press A to win
>implying teaching a Pokémon an HM is somehow a skill check
dumb tripfag

>>57180963
no well designed game locks keys to a limited resource

imagine how fucking retarded metroid would be if you were only allowed to carry a few of your upgrades and you had to waste time back tracking to a save station to swap them out. It adds literally nothing of value to the game except a shitty chore so people like you who are fucking terrible at video games can feel smart for doing a thing that requires zero critical thought.

>>57180970
Pokémon as a JRPG isn't particularly amazing, countless other games have better balancing and difficulty. It's really only PVP and battle facilities that require more specific team building, but the former is bound by a meta and both require an unholy amount of grind that's irrelevant to the main game. Should it be relevant to the main game? Probably not, Pokémon was never a fundamentally difficult game.

Where Pokémon excels is in the ways the monsters are scattered throughout the world, forcing you to engage with it to reap the full benefits of its content. You want to lure out a rare high level Pokémon? You can use a Repel with the right lead in your party. Want to find an Electric-type? Lead with Static. Want a held item? Compound Eyes + Thief. Better check this area on a Friday to find a rare encounter. Mass outbreaks of rare Pokémon occurring daily? Honey trees? Headbutt trees? Regional music? SOS chaining? Island Scan? Faster egg hatching with Magma Armor/Flame Body? Dual-slot mode?

This is where Pokémon's interesting stuff lies. The rest just coasts.

>>57180982
you don't understand the skill it takes to slap rock climb on a random mon then go back to pressing strong move or setting up on stupid NPC

>>57181002
HMs aren't limited resources. The only limit is the self-imposed moveset/party limitation which may make your game more difficult, though it's Pokémon and the optimal way to play is mashing A to Champion with your starter and switching party members to do the exact same thing your starter can do is like trying to do a spin or pose while throwing a basketball. You're just making more busywork to accomplish what somebody who doesn't do those things can already do.

The game I was thinking of was Resident Evil 4, which is much less forgiving than Pokémon. You decide to bring a certain key or item with you to a new area in the hopes it unlocks something extra there, you're giving up inventory space that could be used for other weapons, ammunition, or medicinal items. You're making the game harder by removing things that can help you. The thing is, Pokémon is incredibly easy even with a team that contains two HM slaves with 8 HM moves. You can hold 99 healing items, there aren't even bag limitations starting in Gen IV so you can have every healing item.

I also don't see the point of having locked doors past the point a player gains an always accessible key.

>>57179631
This is the one thing I agree with honestly.
Not a fan of the hail either, since it adds a gimmicky layer to it (That Red even abuses). You can just play on those few days without hail, but still.

>>57181043
>it's Pokémon and the optimal way to play is mashing A to Champion with your starter
Thanks for explaining why HMs are a completely pointless mechanic.

>>57180844
we live in an age where one cannot afford to have their time wasted, least of all within a game, whose premise is supposed to be having fun

>>57181063
what if those "time wasters" are actually fun?

>>57181065
waking up at 4am to catch a morning mon? sounds fun
overwriting a valuable moveslot or bringing a slave to take up a monslot just to face red? sounds fun
walking around grass patches for hours to get a 1% encounter? sounds fun
flying to random locations in the hopes of lucking into being in the same vicinity as a roaming encounter? sounds fun

>>57181055
On the contrary, HMs contribute towards all the stuff that matters. Whether you're using Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, Draco Meteor, Hammer Arm, Earthquake, Psychic, Blizzard, etc., they all have the exact same purpose of "beat the enemy". Yeah, there are base stats, STAB, base power, crits, stat buffs and debuffs, crit buffs, etc. but it doesn't matter. Am I really relying on Blaze to trigger at 1/3 HP while buffing my Sp. Atk so I can get off a powerful Blaze Kick in Ruby? Hell no, it's Pokémon. I am just going to mash Blaze Kick (and Sky Uppercut against Glacia's Sealeo and Walrein) with my level 90 Blaziken through the Pokémon League and occasionally use a Full Restore. My greatest fear is running out of PP and that's only because PP Up/Max is kind of a finite resource in some games.

Pokémon's actual battling in the single-player is simplistic enough that children who are unable to read are able to get through the game. The part that requires player engagement, interacting with the world to achieve specific goals, is also the category that HMs fall into. The more Game Freak takes away from the "friction" of the game, the less engaged I feel. And it's because the majority of Pokémon fans simply want a Pokémon anime world simulator instead of a good video game.

>>57181075
are you trying to make any of these look bad? they are unironically super fun

>>57181075
Actually is fun because you get things out of it other players who refuse to put in the time and effort won't. By removing all friction from obtaining something, there is zero value in having it. It's why the free Mega Latios/Latias in ORAS is boring. It's a participation prize, not an achievement, no matter how much the game's writing tries to make (You) seem special like you earned this.

Imagine studying for a test or training for a sport or getting good at a game, and then everyone who even participates receives the same sticker regardless of how they placed, that all of your effort or choices were utterly pointless, and then they have the gall to act like you're special (while also saying this to everyone else). When everyone is special, nobody is.

>>57181098
in the age of simulators and genning, effort no longer holds inherent value, and instead trends toward negative value

>>57179504
I can't believe that you said something cool.

>>57181098
You're placing "fun" on the end result and what you can do to spite others, that doesn't sound fun at all. Monotonous grind for the sake of something doesn't make something more special or engaging, it just makes you look foolish for having fallen for it and wasting your own time. May as well shiny hunt at that point.
There are infinitely better ways that the game could reward the player for their efforts, small examples being the second floor of Wayward Cave (an actual good example of exploration and paying attention to the worldbuilding) for Gible or the Battle Facilities in BW2 that reward you with a shiny for beating them. And those are only scratching the surface of what the games could do if people actually wanted these games to be any good instead of having dickriders like you praise mediocrity for the sake of feeling "special".

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>>57179495
>final boss.

Lance? It's as hidden as every other Champion lmao. And no, Red is not final boss - he's post-game super boss, Pokemon's Ultima Weapon etc.
Also this argument is overall disingenous when you realize that you need HMs to get through Victory Road in most games... which means that end game is locked behind HMs in most games. Shitty bait from shitty Poketuber.

>>57181133
see >>57180008

>>57181133
Funnily enough, you don't need any HMs to get through the GSC victory road, only needing Surf and Waterfall to access it from New Bark Town

>>57181128
one being instantly solved with a strategy guide and doesn't actually waste your time at all, and the other being an end result of actual gameplay, and a bonus reward as opposed to being the end of a means

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>>57181144
That's not the problem. If you cannot beat one trainer with few moveslots dedicated to supbar moves then problem is you being a retard. Player being a drooling moron is not bad game design.

>>57181145
...So you still need HMs to get to end game gauntled, huh. What's the difference?

The entire anti-Johto thing hinges on people making these arguments being retards talking to other retards that believe them because big Poketuba with big numbas can't be wrong. Lame..

>>57179504
maybe not all tripfags are not so bad

>>57181128
Regardless of whether you like it or not, what I said is in Tajiri's Capsule Monsters pitch. He emphasized the existence of Pokémon that would take hours to days to obtain, and how they would be more inherently valuable as a result. This was to promote the trading mechanic of the game, though this pitch also implied that you'd be able to leverage the value of your own trades by offering multiple of something for just one of the more valuable thing. Do I think actually looking for Feebas in RSE is boring? Of course. If they made it fun, everyone would have one. If Pokémon was purely single-player, I would be more in favor of more interesting encounters for everything, or at least having methods to increase your odds. But Pokémon also had a social community aspect from the start that influenced its design. Beyond Pikachu's appearance, Masuda once said he thinks it became so popular because it was available at an early point of the game that everyone would go through, but would be just rare enough (5%) that only a minority of players might see it, so its desirability was much greater than the common Pokémon. It's a Pokémon that got kids talking about where and how to get it, and that has always been a major strength of the franchise.

>>57179504
This kills the yawnie

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>>57181166
it's not that you can't beat it, it's just that you can't choose a random team of 6 because you need one of them to be able to learn the HM

>>57181173
Tajiri? The autistic time-waster who had his project nearly destroyed twice? The guy who took 6 years to make it, and only got it out the door thanks to the work of his team?

The guy who, for the followup, could only muster up a shitty demo the size of saffron city, with a draft dex full of hideous unsightly rejects? The guy who had to give up in shame midway through development and hand it off for completion to his music guy? The one who's never been involved with the making of the games since? That one?

>>57181196
You can't also beat Ultima Weapon in FF7 etc with subpar equipment and team composition. You're not entitled to beating the game and it's your job to figure out how to do it and game designers should not cater to "I want to use five Caterpies and Pikachu" autism.

>>57181204
Based, Masuda saved Pokemon.

The only reason he cares is because he does stuff like “nuzlocke but only bugs you catch before the first gym” so of course butterfree, beedrill, and whatever else can’t learn rock climb

>>57181208
that of course is retarded but what if i have good team of 6 where none of them can't learn rock climb?

>>57181204
>>57181206
This is true, Tajiri was better as an ideas guy and Masuda really did pull the team together, but Pokémon is what it is fundamentally because of Tajiri. The foundation of what Pokémon is exists because of Tajiri, and the further it strays from that, the less it feels like Pokémon.

>>57180963
In any game the cost of carrying a key in your inventory is not comparable to being forced to either take up one of your six party members' limited skill slots (requiring additional effort and resources to restore a useful skill in its place, if it can be restored at all) or drop a useful party member for one that offers little to no battle value because not everyone can use the "keys," you disingenuous faggot
Nevermind that we're not just talking about one "key," you need three HMs to fully explore Mt. Silver which is a full 1/8th of your party's skills, and there are EIGHT HMs to worry about in the Gen 4 games.
>uhhh you know you never NEED to use Fly
Fuck off

>>57181214
Then you don't have team that can complete the final dungeon before super boss. Suck it up and go figure it out.

>>57181218
In fact in a lot of oldschool rpgs you have skills and entire team members whose job is exploration. I mostly think here about DnD-based stuff but from top of my head FF V had Geomancer who was poor at battling but had wide arrange of skills letting you find hidden passages, avoid traps or literally jusf run faster.
Play more games.

>>57181215
that's not necessarily a bad thing tho, even if it differs from Tajiri ideas it can still be a soulful and good game

>>57181218
>you need three HMs to fully explore Mt. Silver which is a full 1/8th of your party's skills
oh no.........anyway

>>57181218
>The cost of having two Pokémon in your party as HM slaves far outweighs any other game
This is utter bullshit because Pokémon is babby's first jarpig and it can be beaten by children under the age of 6 who are more than likely to have their Charizard know Cut and Strength.

Pokémon is nowhere near difficult enough that you need all six party members minmaxxed to beat the game, it's ridiculously lenient and the only actual penalty is that you lose half your money if you lose a battle and the only reason that could be a massive amount is because chances are you've won the last 188 battles without too much thought.

>>57179495
okay admittedly that's kinda a good point?
But at the same time, HGSS hate is *definitely* manufactured.
Since, HGSS was good, and it'd benefit gamefuck (and ONLY gamefuck, and only at first) if people didn't want better games.

>>57181214
Working around the game’s constraints is part of the puzzle. It isn‘t a good team then. I can understand if you have some self-imposed limit like what I’m assuming FlygonHG is, in which case it’s unfortunate, but if we’re just talking about during a normal game then that’s just part of the puzzle. Black/White isn’t badly designed because Seisitoad can’t learn waterfall and you need it to finish.

>>57181218
I can think of Morrowind quests that require you to carry 150 weight of useless items through the wasteland to a random cave and if you can’t take all your equipment without getting over encumbered, lol have fun never moving until your drop shit

>>57181235
NTA but this is why I see it as terrible game design, because if the game is easy enough to where the hindrance does not matter then there's no reason for that hindrance to exist in the first place as it takes away the player's agency and fun without presenting anything that would make up for it. You're not being tasked to make a good team in order to beat a tough opponent or even being given the challenge or Karenfagging, you're just being a "fuck you" in order to do the exact same thing you've been doing all game.
The game should be doing its best to make itself harder, not make itself harder to play.

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>>57181235
>The cost of having two Pokémon in your party as HM slaves far outweighs any other game
>you need all six party members minmaxxed to beat the game
Who are you quoting?
You're exactly right that Pokémon is a series of games for babies that requires basically no strategy or planning. It's designed so that anyone can play with just their favorites.
So what was the purpose of HMs? How did they serve Pokémon's game design philosophy? How did they make the games better and how are they worse now without them?

>>57181241
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qil4OpfOufU Reason why there's no Johto remake/Legends-style game may be based on the fact that Johto leans HARD on irl influences and a lot of archealogic discoveries that inspired it are heavily work in progress. Gamefreak just may not want to bullshit if all, especially that they put already a lot of research into HGSS and now throwing some random bs that may end being not true into it would be kinda bad.
Good video, btw. Explains entire thing with Ruins of Alph.

>>57181225
While I think that's true, my favorite games in the series have always been the ones that build upon Tajiri's ideas. I think it says a lot that when kids see a Pokémon like Marill or Mewtwo in the movie armor, or even the truck or space behind Bill's house, their first instinct is coming up with methods of obtaining those Pokémon and getting to those places. Missingno isn't simply pulling junk data from an unused index to kids, it's a secret Pokémon with its own special encounter method and lore. When I played Gen II, I couldn't get Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Mewtwo, Mew, the Kanto starters, the fossils, etc. The solution for getting those Pokémon is to use the Time Capsule and trade them from a Gen I game, but to me, I believed they were actually in Gen II. Cerulean Cave had collapsed, but there must be some hidden way in, I looked all around that area and found the Berserk Gene just because I believed there was a secret. I saw the waterfall in Mt. Silver Cave and I believed there was a secret if only I could get to it.

When I see more thought go into encounter mechanics, I feel like that's what Pokémon is from a gameplay perspective, because it's how all kids think.

>>57181224
>>57181246
We're not talking about fucking Wizardry or Morrowind, we're talking about Pokémon. I know what annoying quests and utility skills/classes are, just like you know that none of the games you're trying to draw comparisons to are played anything like Pokémon just because "hurr durr they're both RPGs"

>>57181249
>>57181252
My point has always been that having to make choices involving the degree to which you engage with the world of the game is what makes it fun, because you as a player tend to be rewarded through the collection of rare monsters. I don't actually use Dunsparce, but I'll do that 1% search in Dark Cave as soon as I reach Violet City. If I was a kid and met somebody with a rare Pokémon I had never seen, I would want that Pokémon. I'll use Rock Smash to find a wild Nosepass. I'll use Headbutt to find a Heracross. I'll bring HM slaves to go up optional waterfalls or battle hidden Trainers with rare Pokémon or grab bonus items like a TM. I'm getting stuff out of doing this, things that other players who aren't willing to invest the time or party members aren't getting, and they want the same rewards I'm getting but without the effort. When they start getting those same rewards, like Mega Latios/Latias, my choices of how to play stop mattering and the game no longer becomes engaging. It's just a Pokémon world simulator, and I don't care enough about its world to play babby's first jarpig over any other JRPG.

>>57181262
In Etrian Odyssey you also need to take into consideration exploration-based skills and entire team members whose only job is to collect resources.
And yes the fact that this kind of gameplay systems is popular in genre that Pokemon is part of is important to note so stop acting liks a retard. Your "no, it does not matter" is not making something irrelevant. Sticking fingers into your ears and closing your eyes is not helping.

>>57181262
>In any game the cost of carrying a key in your inventory is not comparable to being forced to either take up one of your six party members' limited skill slots (requiring additional effort and resources to restore a useful skill in its place, if it can be restored at all)
You brought up other games, don’t be surprised when you’re proven wrong.

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>>57181287
>is not comparable
hurrrdddurrr

>>57181300
>ITS NOT COMPARABLE!!!
>never gives a reason why it just is
It's completely comparable and needing to leave something else at home base to take a quest item or certain party member over a more combat proficient one is exactly the same

>>57181284
The problem here is that you equate effort to inconvenience. It really does not take any effort to slap a shitty move on a mon and carry them around for a few minutes, or do the same repetitive task over and over until the RNG yields. Anybody can do it, it's simple tedium and it doesn't feel rewarding.
I'd gladly take on some stupid Kaizo romhack-tier battles or go through a 10 hour long sidequest just to get one new Pokemon so long as there was any actual thought put into doing such and being rewarded for doing so, but that's not what we've gotten from the games at all. New and different ways to obtain Pokemon is exactly what I want from the games because I play it for them and don't find the battles all that engaging (at least not in terms of singles, there's a reason only Pokemon and its clones opt for a 1v1 format) and that's exactly why I find things like these to be awful - because they're not interesting or engaging in the slightest and it dulls what should be the best part of the games.

>>57181312
I told you why, the retarded key analogy was not comparable in terms of opportunity cost and inconvenience
That was where the "Pokémon vs 'any game'" comparison got up by the way >>57180963, dishonest faggot

>>57179778
It stems from the Johto hate for GS, which in turn stems from how they're not allowed to criticize KAAAANTOOO because it's le first.

>>57181284
>having to make choices involving the degree to which you engage with the world of the game is what makes it fun
Good point! Except that when doing something is mandatory to progress, you don't have a choice.
They tried the half-measure of making HMs optional in XY, it didn't stop anyone from complaining about having to carry around an HM mule they don't care about instead of being able to just explore with the team that they want to use

>>57181285
>comparing exploration skills in a dungeon crawler to your four moves in Pokémon
Hey when Pokémon did a dungeon crawler, did they try to hamfist everything into the shitty HM system or did they just give you exploration skills separately in a way that makes fucking sense
Why did Pokémon give you a bike as a key item instead of just making the ability to explore faster an HM? What would have changed if Surf was kept as a surfboard key item as originally intended? Could it be that making utility progression tied to HMs is arbitrary and pointless, as demonstrated by every game that doesn't have them?
Can you genuinely tell me that you think going into my party menu and telling some random shitmon I don't care about to use a move is a better system than what PLA/SV did, seamlessly integrating exploration abilities into your mounts?

>>57181320
This illustrates there's no difference because a pokemon fan being autistic, thanks for agreeing with me

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>>57181339
Yeah man, if only there were more normal and well-adjusted people like you arguing about Pokémon on 4chan at 2 AM on a Sunday

>>57181254
I was mildly fascinated but it ultimately reveals itself to have been clickbait. How disappointing.

>>57181341
It's not Sunday, but half this thread is trying to argue a nuzlocke streamer who beat Alpha Sapphire with 6 Spheals has complaints which should be treated as something that impacts 99% of playthroughs rather than the extremely constrained challenges he sets for himself.

>>57181358
or HMs just suck ass
thought so as a kid, everyone I ever talked to thought so, the games did away with them for good reason and they were so poorly realised as a mechanic that most people's first instinct is to just have a filler mon they slap HMs onto instead of engaging with the mechanic

>>57181335
>Nooo you are wrong I am right.

I'm not even reading your shit. You clearly lost and started mindlessly rambling in wall of text, completely missing the point either on purpose or because you're a fucking idiot.
Exploration, movement and challenges involving them are part of this genre. The game don't ask you if you can beat Red but can you do it while dedicating your precious resources to firstly get to the end of the dungeon.
Could it be done better? Maybe, probably not - after all HMs were THE movement system of first 6 generations so obviously the final post-game dungeon will highlight that. And as we saw from gen 7 onward GF's replacement for HMs is a lazy afterthought.

>>57181358
Do you think that's the only reason someone might not like HMs
Do you think anyone appreciated having to have a designated Rock Climb mon on their Red team
Do you think anyone ever liked or defended HMs before "nuPokémon" removed them and contrarian faggots came out to say "actually it was intelligent game design that every Platinum playthrough has a mandatory Bibarel"

>>57181359
Sorry that even as an adult you can't grasp the concept of resource management

god hms are so much more based than that clunky ugly tranny bike you have to ride in scat vomit

>>57181367
trvthnvke

You know what would make Chrono Trigger better? Is if I had to have Ayla on my team with a bad item equipped just so I could visit the Black Omen

>>57181362
Yes, I do.
The only thing I did not liked was that some of them (mostly just cut) had no actual use in combat. Not all of them, mind you - Surf, Strength, even Rock Smash and Rock Climb could be used for their sheer power or secondary effects. Oh, and that later gens introduced too many of them - defog is shit but desu it's not that different from snow and mud terrain in Sinnoh and these can't even be removed by any means at all.

>>57181361
If it's taken for granted that Red (like any Pokémon battle) is completely trivial, then how is teaching one Pokémon one move anything more than an arbitrary inconvenience?
Is Pokémon a braindead game for babies or is it a very deep and interesting RPG where the limitations imposed by the dungeon boss (one move) can only be overcome with intelligent strategy?

>>57181378
>I can only think in absolutism.

Pokemon is game designed for kids but it does not mean that it should be just simulator of walking through straight line. And it's not that Red it some special outer in the fact that he's locked behind HM - literally in first game of this God's forsaken franchise you needed cut to fight Lt.Surge.

>>57181335
>is a better system than what PLA/SV did
yea having to use their mandated ugly trannymon to get around the empty unity sandboxes that make up those dogshit games is bad

You already posted your shitty bait, I'm not giving you a [You] just because you replied to me this time

>>57181401
who she talking to?? that trannybike she feeds estrogen sandwiches to?

>>57179504
fibby pibby

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>>57179672
The original Gen II really got stupid with HMs though. You use Waterfall, what, all of 3 times in the entire game? Obviously you need to use it more if you need to run back and forth, but that's ridiculous. It doesn't help that Whirlpool is basically just Water Cut and similarly used so rarely. And this is on top of having all the other HMs from Gen I. It encouraged just slapping it on a disposable mon just for that area instead of having to consider which Pokemon it should go on.

Gen I felt, unusually for it, well balanced. Cut, Strength, Surf, Fly are all very useful moves to have in a fight. Flash's real problem is actually that it's so rarely used (only Rock Tunnel and Unknown Dungeon/Cerulean Cave, I think?). But the actual "balance" to this is move pools for most Pokemon were so pathetic in Gen I that you'd be struggling to fill out four useful moves on most Pokemon to begin with, so "wasting" a space on an HM never actually felt like much of a waste. What else were you going to have in that slot? Water Gun? Gen I's shitty moves and movepools helped make HMs seem more like a genuine choice and not just a straight forward burden.

And all of the Gen I HMs were distinct. Cut removed obstacles. Strength let you engage in, admittedly mostly very simple one or two move, block puzzles. Surf opened up a whole tile set. Fly was quick travel. Flash removed darkness. Waterfall just moves you up an obstacle and Whirpool is, again, Water Cut. Dive in Gen III at least felt more impactful.

I don't recall how HGSS was, considering Rock Climb's there, but Rock Climb is just Rock (normal I suppose) Waterfall anyway. Without changing the maps of Johto too much, you're not going to avoid the new HM problems described above.

Every region should need at least 10 hms to get through desu. maps feel so boring and too streamlined with them missing.

In fact every battle facility should need a few hms to enter. having 12 moves available brings down the difficulty too much as it is

>>57181454
need an ice, dark, and fire HM

>>57181446
Worth noting that Gen II did not require you to use HMs to get to Red, you could walk from the Pokémon Center to the summit
Also did not have the annoying fucking Hail which is a way bigger factor in making the fight worse, another one of HG/SS's changes that everyone sweeps under the rug

>>57181462
Skate (ice 20bp raises evasion)
Unflash (dark status, sharply lowers target’s accuracy)
Melt (fire 60 bp melts ice boulders)

>>57181362
I've been arguing for HMs here since they started being sidelined, it's one of the joint issues when the games started being more and more railroaded. HMs are keys tied to skills, but they're not all inherently useful skills. Early Pokémon's progression system was more of a system of key checks, there weren't as many story event flags. You do something seemingly unrelated to your main quest like finding the Safari Zone Warden's dentures and get rewarded with a key that allows you to progress further in the game. Technically the Safari Zone is a mandatory area, but it doesn't give off that impression because everything you're doing is of your own volition, you might as well think of it as doing a side quest. That's not to say HMs can't be improved upon, just that their outright removal took away elements I liked without replacing them with anything better.

On the opposite end, there's Sun and Moon which are heavily gated by story flags to the point you're being railroaded down linear paths through the majority of the game and having other characters preventing you from taking detours. Everything must happen in a very specific order, obstacles that would once be HMs are now character-based and they block things until the story arbitrarily decides they don't. There is no functional distinction between Olivia blocking a cave and the one time boulders you push with Machamp.

>>57179495
Who even cares if less than 15% of mons learn Rock Climb when extremely common shit like Geodude learns it? You're telling me you can't catch a Geodude?

>>57181480
It sounds to me like you're really arguing for Game Freak to get better at game design, which I think everyone can agree with. Sun and Moon being basically on rails was awful, but I don't think keeping HMs would have changed their approach in making the game that way. Like you said, it still has you summoning Machamp to push boulders around, it just stopped you from going in to the cave to do that yourself until the game decided you were allowed to. That stuff started in Gen V, or earlier, when HMs were still mandatory for progress.
I agree that unlocking your progression rather than having it arbitrarily gated is a good thing, I just don't think HMs were the best way to do that. Key items or other functions can be implemented that accomplish the same thing in overworld exploration/travel without the limitations that HMs impose on your party. That's what I'm taking issue with when I'm criticizing HMs, more ways to interact with the world in general would be a good thing, but it doesn't have to be done in a way that handicaps you while you're exploring.
It definitely makes a lot of sense for those features to come from Pokémon, especially your own Pokémon, which I why I pointed to PLA/SV's implementation over something like Gen 7's Ride Pokémon or SwSh's super bike. I will also say that there was some value in actively choosing to use the moves, it could get annoying when it was excessive but the passive/streamlined nature of the unlocks in the newer games takes from the satisfaction of consciously using something you unlocked to progress. I wouldn't mind it at all if it was just for stuff like cutting trees or pushing boulders.

>>57181465
You know what, I completely forgot that. I thought you needed waterfall, but presumably that was in HGSS, if at all.

One nice thing about Gen II was actually that they made the original HMs a bite more required or in depth. There's much more sophisticated boulder puzzles in Gen II and Flash ends up being "required" in at least three caves during the main story, not just one like in Gen I.

>>57181539
My personal solution was to rethink HMs, making certain mechanics built into the game itself (ie. Fly being reworked into something else since it's very rarely mandatory and fast travel is a common feature in most games), or making some HMs extremely useful. If there was a tree-based HM that gives the player the option of Cut for removing obstacles, headbutting for a specific encounter table, slathering honey for a different encounter table, planting/harvesting berries, and doing the same for Apricorns, I think everyone would want it.

But obstacles specifically serve a dual purpose of progression-gating and hiding bonuses. Beyond obtaining the HM for the first time, it's no longer a progression gate but something to hide a bonus. I think outright removing the obstacles leads to their replacement with NPCs and arbitrary story flags which hurts the sense of agency the player should have, and I greatly dislike this. Always having the ability to pass an obstacle without any sacrifice or challenge on the player's end makes an obstacle pointless and the rewards lack accomplishment. I don't want NPCs blocking paths and issuing challenges (ie. battles) to let you past them either, I'd find them almost as annoying as the characters who do that in the story. I don't mind finding an NPC to battle after an obstacle, because I feel like the one initiating the challenge or like I'm finding something that might reward me.

EVERYTHING BEFORE GEN 7 IS TRASH

>>57180963
You joke but one of my favorite parts of PLA was cheesing around areas that were clearly meant to only be accessible with ridemons

>>57181795
Also I bet Red's Pikachu with a level 51 Sandslash that knew earthquake.
>pokemon games
>hard
>I M P L Y I N G

>>57181218
>>uhhh you know you never NEED to use Fly
Get a mon with dig or teleport retard

>>57181804
Okay fine. Here’s what’s going to happen though
>use dig
>get teleported to place I don’t want to be
>walk into center
>grab bird from pc
>walk out
>use fly
>get teleported to place I actually want to be
What’s the point? I’m not traveling on foot halfway across the map when I could just fly there instead

>>57180963
Playing any game
>respects your time

Playing Pokemon
>doesn't respect your time and your intelligence

>>57181446
Almost every instance of Waterfall only needs to be interacted with once, then you can safely discard it.

>>57179778
It's not that people hate it, it's that people aren't allowed to criticise it. The same thing happens with MHW, because HGSS was the game gen Z fans started with along with the fact that it's a remake of a classic game that they can use to fit in they defend it with their lives as if a mild criticism was a personal insult to them.

>>57180747
being "underleveled" is part of the experience (at least prior to Gen 5) because that's the only advantage the AI has over you.
Why do people get so buttblasted when they see their Pokemon at level 40, and the boss trainers ace at level 50? It's meant to replicate a boss fight the best way the mechanics allow it without ignoring multiple aspects of said mechanics.

Interestingly, plenty of in-game tierlist before Gen VI assume you are running a 4 mon team with two throwaway HM users, since experience isn't spread too thin and you get the utility.

>>57181075
>waking up at 4am to catch a morning mon? sounds fun
That's why trading exists.
I understand why you have such a struggle understanding. It's your autism preventing you from doing so.
The autistic mind only thinks about his/her experience. They're incapable of thinking of outside scenarios because their minds are unable to do so.
There's a reason why anon pointed out a "4am capture as 'fun' ". because trading is a social aspect, and autists struggle with social settings. Any normal person would be "huh, a 4AM capture? I'm not up at 4AM, so I'll trade with someone!" instead of going "huh, a 4AM capture? What a fucking retarded feature I'M not up at 4am!"

Isn't it ironic how a series that was meant to encourage interaction with your fellow man, attracts so many solitary aitistis

>>57179504
OHNONONONONO
>Yawnfag

>>57181075
You know morning doesn't end until like 10am, right? You don't have to wake up at 4am.

>>57182004
NTA but if you're playing a video game before 10 it's probably a day off for you so why would you wake up that early just to catch one pokemon when they could use their time to relax and sleep in
Not to mention the fact that even if they did wake up that early who's to say that they didn't have anything else to do like some doctor or dentist appointment, going out to buy food and what not, visiting family or even other hobbies.

>>57182016
>he doesn't get up at 7-8 on his days off to watch the sunrise
ngfmi

>>57182018
>wakes up to watch the sunrise
>plays games instead

>>57182019
The sunrise is over in a matter of minutes, you still have 2 hours until "morning" ends.

>>57179504
worst person you know just made a great point

>>57179631
>Final battle should be both trainers going full power
Red opens with a NFE pokemon

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>>57181075
All of this but unironically.
I literally do all of this and it's my prefered way to play. It helps that Pokemon is game on a handheld console so I don't even need to get out of my bed for it.

>>57179495
>Complains that roughly 15% learn Rock Climb
>Is too dense to realise that you only 1/6 mons has to learn it, essentially making it 16.67%
PhD student of Walmart

>>57179778
It's widely considered the greatest game in the franchise. They know the newer games will never live up to the quality that we once had, so they seethe endlessly over it (and Gen 5).

>>57179495
what a load of bullshit
I had to check but this nigga >>57179556 is 100% right
If you throw away your own starter that a U problem

>>57180278
This was what I always did as a kid

>>57179631
>b-but I need all four move slots!!!
Typhlosion doesn’t even learn enough moves to warrant more than 3 anyway. You aren’t clicking any more than Flamethrower + Eruption on it because it literally doesn’t have anything else.

>>57179495
pack it up HGSS bros, I guess the game was shit after all...

>>57181574
Running to the PC to grab your shitty HM slave to get a Protein hiding behind a rock isn’t challenge. It’s just a chore that adds nothing to the game.

>>57181080
Keeping an HM slave in your party perpetually isn’t “friction” or “engagement” you dumbfuck. It’s just a badly designed pointless mechanic.

Maybe they should also put in a mechanic that requires you to feed your Pokemon every 2 hours or else all their moves do no damage. It might be enough to keep retards like yourself entertained because you somehow equate mindless chores to challenge.

>>57179504
But I have been doing that, and I still feel robbed.

>>57182320
>>57182306
>filtered samefagging alolatranny
sad desu hms really buckbroke the feeble minded brown masses

>>57182359
>retard crying about “friction” and “engagement” hates the game that has some degree of actual challenge instead of “put the square in the square hole” tier time wasting toddler shit

>>57179672
retarded zoomer take

>>57182306
>>57182332
>>57182478

Nigga we can easily see that you're one guy. What a pathetic behavior. And for what? For defending opinion of Internet attention whore? That literally regurgitate the same three posts over and over again because he has nothing better to do? Have some fucking shame.

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>>57182511

>>57181990
>being "underleveled" is part of the experience (at least prior to Gen 5)
Why are you lying? This is only a problem with Johto, nobody complains about the level curve in other regions

>>57182517
"ThIS Is OnLY PrOBLeM WiTH JoHTO" - Nigga never played Pokemon game.
This is ""problem"" (for mentally disabled folks) that exist in every game without Nu-Exp.Share and you're a pathetic liar if you try to say otherwise.
Don't try to answer, you lost.

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>>57182527
Are you sperging out on me because the other guy called out your embarrassing samefag accusation

>>57182555
You really think that only one person in this thread argues against your faggotry? The one sperging out here is you.

>>57182375
>shitlie’s gay tour around hawaii with rotom telling where to go 24/7
lmao kys

>>57181002
Thracia 776 is better than any modern Fire Emblem

>>57182624
Why'd you delete your first reply, big man?

>>57182741
I was there for the whole time, it is his original reply.
Now kill yourself, now.

>>57179495
>I need to use HMs to traverse mountainous terrain?!
Are these the retards that defend Gen 7 and later games?

>>57182848
>I need to use this pointless time wasting mechanic that contributes nothing to the game?!
Are these the high IQ people that defend Gen 7 and later games?

>>57182850
You sound like someone that was filtered by genuinely good game design.

I think Rock Climb is particularly poorly designed because it doesn't even do anything mechanically interesting like Strength or even Rock Smash or Dive

it's just another "click A to move past thing" HM

>>57182856
>press a to go up rock
woah now this is revolutionary

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my favorite part of DPPt is when you unlock Rock Climb, and decide to go back to Mt Coronet where the Rock Climb obstacle is, but then immediately after it there's a cave painting blocking the way, making Rock Climb entirely fucking pointless for gatekeeping that part of Mt Coronet

>>57182870
And then Rock Climb is completely irrelevant for getting to Sunyshore and there’s a fucking NPC blocking the way because there’s a power outage.

You can’t defend HMs with “b-but it’s better than NPC roadblocks!” when the game has as many retarded NPC roadblocks as gen 7+ anyway. Do one or the other, not both.

>>57182850
>N-no! We are not retards! We are smart!

You sound like an irl basedjack, you sound like a fucking caricature. Are you even real human being or dead Internet theory is real and you're just a fucking bot?

>>57182857
Why did you leave out that you get rewarded with the Rock Slide TM?

>>57182917
>you got """""rewarded""""" with a TM you would have gotten 5 minutes later just from progressing the story normally anyway

>>57179495
>only like 15% of Pokémon can learn
Then catch one.

>>57182922
>you would have gotten it anyway
I can say this about whatever exploration you like to soiface over.

>>57182934
You wouldn't come across the Regis in RSE just from progressing the story normally. The entire section of the game they're in is completely optional.

>>57179504
fpbp

>>57182940
You do come across their rock formations in regular play and an NPC near one tells you they are ancient ruins.

>>57179504
>press a to rock climb before pressing a to win
wow this is so different and exciting

>>57182517
>nobody complains about the level curve in other regions
I, nor the other anon, didn't say "level curve". We said "underleveled". That used to be the purpose. They are not the same thing.
But since people started crying, starting with Gen 5, they give you a free Lucky Egg so then you'd never have to be underleveled, and then starting with Gen 6 on top of the improved EXP share, you're almost always going to stay overleveled. The AI doesn't have a single advantage over the player these days.

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>>57183018
>They are not the same thing.
What do you imagine people are taking issue with when they complain about the "level curve"
Johto is the only game in the series where you reach the Champion ten levels short playing the game normally (and it's still the lowest level Champion fight in the series). It was not a regular thing that happened before Gen 5, you are lying out your ass. Nobody complains about being underleveled in Kanto, Hoenn or Sinnoh.
>But since people started crying, starting with Gen 5, they give you a free Lucky Egg
Yeah man it's the one gift Lucky Egg you get more than halfway through the game that fixed the EXP curve, not the EXP scaling so that you catch up when you're underleveled and can't grind when you're overleveled. In Gen 6 and 9 you have to go out of your way to get one (again more than halfway through the game) and in Gen 7 and 8 you're not given one until the postgame, dishonest faggot.
>The AI doesn't have a single advantage over the player these days.
When did it ever have a fucking advantage? Did you forget all of the free stat boosts you get in your epic old school games for collecting badges? Did you forget Stat EXP and EVs? Your Pokémon are always better than the AIs, it's one of the many ways they retard-proof the game for people like you.

Johtojanny on a rampage…

Every pokemon game is basically the same. You're all autistic.

>>57183018
>The AI doesn't have a single advantage over the player these days.
totems and titans shit on anything the old games ever had

>>57183304
>What do you imagine people are taking issue with when they complain about the "level curve"
Uh, the progression of a playthrough, hence the word LEVEL CURVE.
Your level curve can go up to 90. If the Champion's ace is at 90, and your Pokemon are only at level 75-80, you are UNDERLEVELED, despite the LEVEL CURVE being high.

>>57179504
you play pokemon, its all press A to win

>>57183018
>boxing pokemon still confuses difficultyfags
kwab

>>57179950
>he was filtered by the wayward cave
kekaroo

>>57183311
Why do you feel like you need to be the same level as the champion? Does anything in the game imply or say that you should be a certain level before fighting any trainer?

>>57183310
I mean... I never implied that they didn't.....

>>57183319
>gets directly quoted
>goes full bitch ellipses mode I never said that
Based

>>57183318
>Why do you feel like you need to be the same level as the champion?
I don't. This is me
>>57181990
>Why do people get so buttblasted when they see their Pokemon at level 40, and the boss trainers ace at level 50?

>>57183324
>If the Champion's ace is at 90, and your Pokemon are only at level 75-80, you are UNDERLEVELED
You're a fucking retard that doesn't even know what you're saying.

>>57183322
I said that the AI doesn't hold an advantage over the player, and you mentioned something completely unrelated to my statement.

>>57183311
Okay, and if I'm still fighting level 20 Pokémon in the 7th gym and my Pokémon are starving for EXP, I'm going to complain that the level curve is shit. That (one of) the problems people have with Johto, no other game has this problem.
Did HGSS fags forget that they bumped up levels across the board from the original GSC (and it still wasn't enough), can they explain why that decision was made if they think not being able to evolve your starter until the 8th gym and Pokémon not getting good moves until the game is already over were epic principled design choices and not just Game Freak being bad at making games like they've always been

>>57183327
Follow the reply chain, please. Carefully this time. If you do, you'll understand what I'm saying.

theres no such thing as underleveled, you have EVs and they dont, i beat the champion with -10 levels

>>57183328
>the AI doesn't hold an advantage
>explicit examples of AI having an advantage over the player
that's about as blatantly related as you can get, the AI never had an advantage in the first place due to the things >>57183304 brought up, and they didn't even point out that newer gens actually do give EVs to some fights

>>57183335
You want even follow one post that you made yourself. Stop being brown.

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>Jotho Defense Force so assangry they start sperging out on each other
My work here is done...

>>57179495
All boomers think hm's suck though, at least you're rewarded for raising larvitar to tyranitar this time seeing as it can learn it and is a good matchup against red, though getting it to level 55 after catching a larvitar in the safari zone was such a pain as pupitar and larvitar die to bubble and absorb + the level curve was retarded and barely fixed

Still fantastic games despite their flaws and you can always play Sacred Gold/StormSilver

bruh, doesmt johto have extremely low levels across the board? its kinda weird, facing level 20-30 opponents after the 7th gym badge. that's easily mid-high 30s to low 40s material in almost every other region

>>57183342
Then you would know that I never once complained about being at the "same level as the champion".
You're the one whose not flowing the reply chain, or are mistaking me for another anon for some reason.

>>57179495
Why wouldn't you have one of those Pokémon on your team during a normal playthrough?

>>57179504
Holy fucking destruction

notice how every time the johtofags get BTFO in an argument they quickly reply to the tripfag again

> Only 15% of pokemon can learn that HM
> "Which 15% I wonder"
> every johto starter

>>57182996
I mean you could easily reduce all RPGs down to press A to win if you really want to.

>>57183359
nah the issue is kanto + the red level jump. it's assuaged if you rematch the elite 4 but most people don't and probably don't know they better teams.

>>57183375
who are you quoting?

>>57183336
It's not about "boohoo Lance is too strong it's not fair" it's about the fact that everything from Whitney to Pryce is between Level 20-30 and then they realized "oh fuck the game's almost over" and it suddenly spikes 20 levels between Pryce and Lance, so you're going into Victory Road with Pokémon that have barely reached their final stage and definitely don't have their best moves and also all the Wild Pokémon are even weaker so it's impossible to add anyone to your team unless you want to grind your ass off. Then you beat Lance and they thought it would be really funny if everything in Kanto went back down to Level 20 and there were only three trainers left in the whole game that were on Lance's level or stronger.
It's not about difficulty or fairness, it's just a very shitty and slow gameplay experience. Johto theoretically has double the campaign of most other games but they don't take advantage of it at all, you have to fight through it with nerf bats.

>>57183399
Fighting the free level 30 Shiny Gyarados before going into a Rocket Hideout full of grunts with level 16 Rattatas will forever be one of the funniest jokes in gaming.

>>57183399
>everything's too hard, you have no moves, your pokemon are unevolved
>Then you beat Lance
kek

>>57183380
>nah the issue is kanto + the red level jump
Of course. Kanto is a glorified boss rush, even with the additions HGSS added to it. And the only reason Red has the jump he has is because it's the only way to make him an actual threat, while also keeping it manageable enough for impatients who just want to bash their head on the A button until the victory theme plays. If Kanto was an actual second region, then they wouldn't need to do a massive jump in levels and have something progress smoothly.

As much as I do have my complaints about the 3DS era Pokemon games and onward, the fact that they don't do absurd level jumps is one thing I can praise them for.

the shitty pokemon distribution…….hm bloat……having to grind a minigame because you can’t buy coins….dogshit level curve…move tutor in the postgame……johto slop is bad

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Rock_Climb_(move) look at what Pokémon are part of that 15% and you'll see this isn't a problem

>>57183438
how do i get venipede in hgss this game sucks

>>57183424
A bit off topic, but it's funny USUM and I assume the original games have the opposite issue. For nuzlockers specifically, island 2 is way harder than you'd expect because the whole thing is like 4 or 5 levels difference so you'll end up over leveling in normal play before getting to the rest of the game. Then you've got the Nekrozma fights which are.. 65? I think, before the elite 4 is back to 60 or so.

>>57183442
scroll down nigga

>>57183449
ahahah

>>57183418
I didn't say it was hard, I said it was slow and shitty.
Want to use that cool Donphan you saw in the movie? Well too bad, you caught him at Level 25 after the 8th Gym and he doesn't learn a Ground-type move until Level 50.

>>57183455
Do you know how TMSs work?

>>57183443
>then you've got the Nekrozma fights which are.. 65? I think, before the elite 4 is back to 60 or so.
It does fit it narratively. Starting with Gen 3, they've been pushing the box legends as the "world ending threat" or "super influential being" and everyone (ESPECIALLY the champions of the region) is all like "all life ends if this Pokemon goes out of control..."

and then when you catch the mon, the box legend is at Level 45. And you got the Champion with their leading mons in the light 50s while their ace is in the low 60s. It's like, why didn't they just do it themselves? Whya re you so scared?
With these modern titles, I actually do like that the late game trainers float around the box (or story-relevant) legend's level or even below it. Makes the threat feel like a threat doesn't stop the stories from sucking shit popsicles but that's another topic in itself

>>57183467
>use the one Earthquake TM in the entire game on a Pokémon that's going to learn it anyway later
>we made the level curve bad on purpose to produce these interesting and valuable decisions
Is this the part where we segue into "actually it was good that you could only teach a Pokémon Earthquake once per savefile"

>>57183486
So is it a big issue that it learns it at level 49 or not? You're causing every issue you're crying about.

>>57179495
How to discard immediately a post
>Johto defenders

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>>57183424
The postgame level spike in BW was based though. N and Ghetsis kick the shit out of you with their level 50s and an hour later you walk into a random cave and find this motherfucker.

>>57183486
>he needs multiple copies of 100 pow + acc attacks to win
kwab

>>57183500
SOVL

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>>57183498
>esl
Go away.

>>57183493
Actually it was John Game Freak who thought it would be funny if most Pokémon's movepools were complete shit until the game was already over (if they ever got a good move at all)
I would not make my game like that because I would want the small children playing my game to have fun

>>57183510
The small children playing do have fun. You're an autistic adult man that's crying over having to use an item in a video game.

>>57183509
Cope

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>>57183515
Indeed, knowledge is a curse and ignorance truly is bliss

>>57183515
I didn't have fun with johto when I was a small child

>>57183515
What about the people who happen to like, or grow to like the multiplayer aspects of Pokemon? You know, the aspects that they still make changes and improvements on to this day? Should they be punished because you don't like the concept of an "infinite Earthquake TM", when it was never an issue in the first place as all the games with infinite TM usage almost always put the best moves behind the postgame (you know, when the story is over) and give said pokemon adequate enough level up movepools.

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This. So much this. It's a shame you can never find big creators performatively shit on Johto for clicks these days.

>>57179495
All starters learn it so it's not a valid criticism.

>>57179504
Uff

>>57183539
What about them? We're not talking about multiplayer.

>>57181241
>HGSS hate is *definitely* manufactured.
Only if Unova hate is manufactured

>>57183582
HGSS, BW and BW2 are the three best games in the franchise, of course the hate is manufactured

>>57179556
This.
With Meganium and Typhlosion it's not even like you're wasting a moveslot since they have no moves

>>57183657
>meganium has no moves
Play the games.

>>57183545
youtubers were never ever the reason johto trashing took off

they merely jumped on a trend which formed within forums

>>57183389
dumbass newfaggot or misclicked

>>57183659
>Earthquake, Screens, Mandatory Hidden Power and Stab meme moves as magical leaf
That's it

>>57183736
>no body slam
You didn't play the games.

>>57180963
What other RPGs are you playing that handle keys that way? That's more like a roguelike thing.

Why is it so hard for some people to be like "yeah that bit is kind of stupid but I like the game overall anyway"
Why do you HAVE to bite every fucking bullet to the point of coming off as a deranged contrarian

>>57183768
>Using Meganium for Body Slam shenanigans
Snorlax is right there and his Body Slam is STAB, and unlike Meganium his stat Attack isnt fucking 83.

>>57183853
>83 attack is low
Yeah you're garbage

>>57179495
HGSS has it's problem but this is just a retarded nitpick. No one than played the games normally ever complained about this shit, it's just a problem for her because those stupid monotype runs she does, like this anon >>57181208 said.

>>57183859
>83 isn't low
post ELO

>>57182478
You don't like Pokemon and don't belong here. Leave immediately.

>>57183923
You’re literally a zoomer lel

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Johto haters would probably die on the spot if played any other rpg besides pokemon.

>>57183941
what does that say about johto that its bad even for pokemon standards lol

>>57183941
Johto haters are literally german chinless pedophiles and transgenders.

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HGSS only flaws
>can only evolve some cross gen evos in postgame or not at all
>removed some spawns from Crystal like the early Phanpy and Sneasel in Ice Path
>can't buy coins in the Game Corner
that's it
>B-BUT MUHHHH LEVEL CURBE!!!!!
Shit nobody cares about, you only pretend to care about it because you have to indirectly shill the new games without actually reference them because if you did everyone would notice the double standards of prasing shitty handholdy games that insulting to the intelligence.
There's plenty of rom hacks that change the levels of the johto games, just play that. The problems with modern pokemon games on the other hand... it's not something that can be easily fixed like that

>>57183941
other RPGs are infinitely better designed than Pokemon so not really

>>57183895
>ELO
Get a load of this retard.

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> "Pokémon games haven't gotten too easy because they were always easy"
> HGSS makes user get a rock climb slave or go one battle without dual screens on Meganium
> "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

>>57183954
>if the game is bad, just play roms that fix it and do it better, doesn’t mean the base game is bad!
Kwab

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>>57183967
There's no point in playing videogames unmodded

>>57180713
Hi Joe.

>>57183966
>get rock climb slave
>game is still piss easy so the only thing rock climb did was waste my time since it had zero impact on the actual gameplay
yeah

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>>57183895
>>57183899
>>57183969
Could the samefagging be any more obvious? Here's your ELO.

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>>57183947
Everything people bitch about with gen 2 is typical RPG fair
>bosses being higher levels
>strong weapons, spells or even party members require you to explore or engage with side content
>>57183956
Depends I think the first 3 gens are fine as babies first rpgs.

>>57182201
This
HGSS and Gen 5 are the weird reverse albatross around the neck of the franchise.
They're the shot in the knee to arguments that the series has always been shit, and thus threatens the consumer identity of the Pokemon Adult. They NEED those games to be bad, to justify their continued identity around the franchise, deny the franchise has declined, and defend the time sunk, and planned to be sunk into the franchise going forwards.
It's actually kind of sad, when you understand the place these people come from. It's just ego protection.

>>57183987
There is nothing that gen 5 does better than any other region and it often isn't even the second or third best. HGSS are based.

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>>57181373

>>57183967
the thing is, is super easy to fix johto "flaws", you can't really say the same for any switch game

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>>57183978
>S-Samefagging
kill yourself

>>57183574
Why aren't we? They should be considered part of the equation when we're talking about fun. It's a part of the game, so why shouldn't we consider them, especially when your actions in the single player affect your multiplayer experience.
Like, for example, teaching a TM you can only get one time in a single playthrough, and you just so happen to teach it to a female Pokemon, so you can't even pass down the TM move via breeding.

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>>57183987
The games so good, nobody played them

>>57181373
Ayla is easily an S tier party member. She could use the nerf

>>57183996
Calm down lmao

if johto is "good", then really any pokemon game is good. the dex distribution, story, and any major fight are easily the worst in the franchise.

>>57183978
Same guy here sorry if my retardation ever caused issues, i should learn when to shut up my mouth considering im a retarded manlet.

>>57183994
You actually got me there anon

>>57184001
>muh sales
How to spot a nofriends

>>57184001
>SM that near of beating XY besides being released on the console's death timer
Whoever did the SM campaign should've been put in charge of XY because holy shit

>>57184001
you know lots of zoomers played them with an emulator? right?

>>57183975
> "oh no I have to spend 2 minutes max catching a Pokémon game and going to the pc in a Pokémon"
You probably only play Pokémon emulated with the fast forward key on.

>>57184011
>he's this mad
kek

>>57184026
>replying to himself for over 10 posts now

>>57184031
>still having an esl tantrum
Poor brown. And I mean poor in multiple ways.

>>57184020
SM campaign was like a new trailer every few weeks, they basically spoiled almost everything before the release

>>57184046
>quotation marks
>in greentext
newfags lmao

>>57184057
>already cokeranting after being spotted as a pajeet
Meganiumfags...not like this...

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HMs are actually kind of cool desu and I miss them. I don't mind them taking up a moveslot or even being "bad" moves I just hate how they were spammed in gen4. They were fine in the first 3 gens.

>>57179495
Oh no, ONE of your 24 moveslots needs to be Rock Climb, a 90 BP normal move with a 20% chance to inflict confusion. What a complete drag, how will my team ever recover from such a devastating handicap.

>>57184142
HMs were fucking brilliant and anyone who hates them is literally just bad at teambuilding. Using your team to traverse the world around you and having to balance battle prowess with abilities used for navigating your surroundings makes for engaging gameplay. It makes you put more thought into how to distribute your moves and what you need out of your team both in terms of getting around and beating the trainers ahead of you on your challenge. The removal of HMs is just one more element of casualization introduced by the new games. Now rather than using your team to explore the world around you, you have complete freedom to use whatever moves you want, which sounds good on paper, but consider that the other trainers in the game aren't packing movesets that are nearly as diverse as what you have access to. It'd be fine if they balanced the game around your broadened options but they didn't. I'd much rather my team have more utility than just fighting other trainers, it made the mons I picked feel more useful. Considering that the maximum amount of HMs any game requires the player to use is 8, with some of them losing their utility and being able to be removed permanently once you find everything gated behind them, and the fact that deleting moves is LITERALLY FREE and an easy way to get the player to engage with and understand move tutors, I really don't think they're nearly as bad as people say.

(Typhlosion) (M) @ Leftovers
- Earthquake
- Swift
- Smokescreen
- Flamethrower

(Meganium) (F) @ Miracle Seed
- Petal Dance
- Strength
- Solar Beam
- Poison Powder

(Ampharos) (M) @ Wide Lens
- Rock Climb
- Signal Beam
- Thunder
- Power Gem

(Togekiss) (F) @ Wise Glasses
- Fly
- Charm
- Psychic
- Ancient Power

(Vaporeon) (F) @ Shell Bell
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Surf
- Rock Smash

(Dragonite) (M) @ Dragon Fang
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Rush
- Waterfall

thoughts on my hg team?