The balance was better before the physical/special split. The split was a massive case of power creep that completely shifted the meta from defense to offense by basically buffing almost every Pokemon across the board. Before the split Pokemon were balanced more around their typing instead of every type and stat spread having access to generic good attacks which is less interesting.
>>58598297>The split was a massive case of power creep that completely shifted the meta from defense to offense by basically buffing almost every Pokemon across the board.>implying stall tactics didn't continue to be obnoxious as all hell in every generation since
>>58598297based truthposter
But that's fucking boring. Why shouldn't there be physical water types and an occasional special fighting type? Why is more variety bad? I have yet to hear a good argument for this.
>>58598316>Why shouldn't there be physical water types and an occasional special fighting type? There already were.
I honestly think people who make the phys/spec split contrarian argument are just people who want Pokemon to be further behind other RPGs than it already is
>>58598395I'd have more respect for the stance if the arguments against it weren't always disingenuous as hell>>58598342 is a great example, completely ignoring the argument in favor of some half-hearted gotcha, because we live in the modern day where you apparently don't win arguments by convincing people why your stance is valid, you win them by annoying the hell out of everyone until they give up on trying to debate you
>>58598423There literally were physical attacking water types and special attacking fighting types. How is it disingenuous?
I like pre-split because the types are less homogeneous and there was a reason to make use of all 6 stats. Now, most types have a 80-100 BP move for either stat and the ones that don't(electric) are notoriously terrible.But I will admit that gen 3's EV system, as is, does not fit as well with pre-split because you're more encouraged to simply pick one offensive stat to invest in.
>>58598448because even if you assume they were referring to the pokemon and not the moves, the majority of pokemon pre-split were either specialized in favor of their type or had points dumped into both attacking stats because even gamefreak realized that if they kept crawdaunt's special attack any lower it would be stuck with goddamned sludge bomb+double edge and almost nothing else. anything that deviated from one of those two archetypes and wasn't named gyarados was left to rot in low tier hell because coverage was generally still dogshit even back in gen 3 and especially with limited TMs.and there actually wasn't a special fighting type pokemon. every single fighting type pre-split was either pure physical or a physical-biased mixed attackerthe actual problem with post-split teambuilding is that there aren't enough varied moves for creative teambuilding, and all of the moves that are mechanically distinct are usually either one note gimmicks or locked to a ridiculously small pool of pokemon
>>58598448Medicham and Hitmonchan aren't special attackers, fag
>>58598521So? There are other Pokemon that are.>>58598512>the majority of pokemonThen use the Pokemon that aren’t in the majority. Where’s the issue?
>>58598512Gyarados had a physical STAB move in any game where it didn't have 100 special.
>>58598539impressive job proving my original point by doing the exact same thing a second time>>58598540I always forget flying was physical, go figure
>>58598512There are still Pokemon doomed by shit stats even post-split. Mixed attackers are almost completely dead, and the Pokemon which can actually make use of both attacking stats are few and far between. It's completely one-dimensional now, and the only Pokemon that use the weaker attack stat are the ones that have no other choice, like Dragapult. Nidoking is an exception because Sheer Force is inherently better on special attackers.
>>58598564> impressive job proving my original point by doing the exact same thing a second timeMaybe you should try making an argument instead of screeching about problems that clearly don’t exist. First you claim there are no physical water attackers and now you’re moving goalposts and claiming “w-well they’re not in the majority”
done replying to the other autist (who is almost definitely just yawnie, judging by the typing style), I'll stick to people that are actually trying to make a point>>58598579that's why I think the bigger issue is in the lack of interesting move variety itself rather than the split itself. pre-split introduced a fuckton of mixed attackers simply because that was the only way a lot of pokemon could get any decent usage, and while the split has allowed a lot greater variety in terms of stat spreads without resulting in functionally unusable shit like mightyena, they're inevitably going to be more homogenized as long as new moves are limited to either exclusively signatures or niche strat-tmsI think moves like boomburst are a genuinely perfect example of how to address the problem>extremely strong move with a low but not unusably small distribution>most of the pokemon that get it either can't use it as a STAB or are weak enough that they greatly benefit from having it
>>58598608I would put the most blame on the EV system that discourages you from using both stats.
>>58598608Glad we agree the phys/spec split is worse.
>>58598614I would put the most blame on the phys/spec split that discourages you from using both stats.
good to know that she's getting mad now, it means I'm totally on the mark>>58598614I think that's also a big one, the EV system does encourage min-maxing to a rather unnecessary degree, and I can't help but wonder if it might benefit from the stat distribution operating like a reverse of natures>higher stat gives less of a return on EVs>lower stat receives a greater boost w/ EVsmaybe it could also be adjusted to work more efficiently for NFEs, it would be nice for unevolved pokemon to have some kind of niche that isn't just slapping eviolite on them
>>58598297Very apt choice of image. This board in particular doesn't want to hear it but gen 4 and 5 unironically did more damage to the franchise than anything before or since. The physical/special split was a failure, the competitive meta was garbage for those generatons, canon PokeGod legendary spam shrank the lore, bestiality pandering, lazily recycling sprites and pushing the update debt of building models for 600 monsters further and further ahead... it's incredible XY were able to salvage the series after all that.
>>58598614This is pretty much the big problem. EVs hard limit your Pokemon's potential for variety and forces you to hard spec into its best stats, otherwise you're playing at a non-optimal state, which increases the likelihood that RNG fucks you in the ass. If we still had stat EXP, or otherwise completely removed EVs, then mons would be completely free to build themselves however they want and be wonderfully unpredictable for it, because a layering of optimization is no longer present and punishing you for not putting 252 into Cockfucker's Base Attack Stat of 195 simply because you liked Cockfucker's Special Move diversity better, even though its Base Special Attack is 85.If there's an ideal I like to think of, it's a world where every Pokemon can effortlessly pull off the same set diversity that Iron Fucking Valiant is notorious for. That bitch is an all-around great Pokemon with a good type combo, generous stats in both offenses with good speed, extremely diverse movepool. You literally can't predict what set it's going to run, even if it opens with a telling cue of something like Booster Energy, because for all you know that Booster Energy is investing in something you're not expecting in the slightest.Wouldn't that be magical? A metagame where the unpredictable thrives, the same reason that diehard PvE players keep coming back to Emerald's Battle Factory?Maybe all of those hypotheticals yawnie keeps bringing up, like Wigglytuff winning VGC, or Physical Aurorus being this underrated godsend of a set, could actually become reality under an EV-less world, because the playing field would be much more fair if you didn't have these extra supplements of bullshit that could only be selectively applied to your stats, forcing you to fixate on the most optimal builds.
>>58598713>This is pretty much the big problemNo, the phys/spec split is. If I don’t have a reason to run special STAB on my Garchomp then I don’t ever have a reason to bother investing in special attack.
>>58598729BOTH are the problem then, you fucking nonce. EVs force optimization, phys/spec split forces optimization. Kill both. We can have a world where BOTH are the biggest problem and need to be destroyed simultaneously. This is no "you have two buttons. but you can only press one" hypothetical.
you're trying too hard now, it's okay to take a break and wait for a poster that will actually bite
>>58598729>>58598734>>58598735nevermind, I forgot what board we're on
>>58598673I prefer the idea of diminishing returns on EVs to discourage 252/252 dumps.The potential issue I see with base stat-dependent EV boosts is the single-stat problem still persists.>>58598713Despite the EV system's flaws, I much prefer it to stat exp because it offers actual customization to your set. If you don't max out stat exp, your Pokemon is objectively incomplete. I would rather there be nothing at all than having stat exp because it's just another tedious grind for each Pokemon like hitting level 100.
Incorrect. Before the physical/special split, a Pokemon designed against the moves it would logically learn was always going to play like complete ass. Afterwards, there was at least the possibility of them being good. I think the biggest example is Flareon, a Pokemon that was designed wrong before the split and afterwards wasn't good because it just didn't learn any of the moves it could take advantage of, but eventually got some of them as the movepool increased. On the other hand Garchomp would have been good regardless of the split because it just had basically every good number and even if Dragon was still special it would have still been good at that too even if it would be worse than Salamence. Hell, Sneasel isn't worse because of the split, it's worse because it got an evolution with way better numbers (and despite being lumped in with equivalently good Pokemon between generations the only set on Smogon is meant to be used in higher tiers meaning it's hitting well above it's weight class).Hell, this isn't even true with Gen 5, as the thing that dramatically changed the game's balance was abilities, notably the weather ones, but giving Pokemon abilities that actually did things more actively in general were huge buffs to basically every Pokemon. This isn't even getting into half of Gen 5 and all of Gen 6+ min-maxing.>>58598713I dunno man, Smogon players fucking hate Salamence for all the shit you're saying, but Pokemon just doing one thing and lacking build variety is more of a problem with how Pokemon are designed on a stat level these days. I get it, after 1000 Pokemon it's hard to design something that fills multiple niches and really easy to have a Pokemon that just has one gameplan, but even back in Gen 1 when EVs didn't really exist you still had the same Pokemon running like two movsets, and Gen 2 is not great with Curselax and worse with it.>>58598729You don't have a reason to run special STAB if the Special stat is garbage either.
>>58598734>EVs force optimization,Making people have to actually think to optimize their build isn’t a problem. Making one stat utterly fucking pointless to use is a problem. With muh split the game may as well not even have two different attacking stats.
>>58598741>You don't have a reason to run special STAB if the Special stat is garbage eitherYes you do. Learn how STAB and type matchups work.
>>58598614This. As you can only max out 2 stats and speed is such an important stat that basically just leaves one other stat to max out, discouraging mixed attacking as the difference between the mons 2 attacking stats is going to be greater. Likewise walls end up benefiting from EV distribution, being able to either pump up there HP which universally improves surviveaility, or otherwise being able to easily patch up weaker defensive stats with EVs.Without EV, a lot of mixed attackers have more even attacking stats, and walls tend to have more pronounced weaker defensive stats. Making the option to run a mixed attacker more appealing as their ability to subvert an opponents defenses is much more promiment. However, all that said, I don' think mixed attackers really will ever become truly promiment. As other anon pointed out pre-split these attackers ran these moves more often because they HAD to not because they wanted to. Mons that had a single stat with STAB and coverage to back it up were obviously preferred when available. Competitive pokemon is always going to favor consistency, and specialization nearly always leads to greater consistency. A mixed attacker I only really see rising to promimence when its mixed attack gives it the ability to subvert a particular metagame threat or matchup, or in formats without any type of open teams with a mon with a diverse enough movepool it forces the opponent into a guessing game.
>>58598755>With muh split the game may as well not even have two different attacking stats.Salamence went from good to great because it could use both of it's stats, the fuck are you on about?>>58598759>Yes you do. Learn how STAB and type matchups work.Okay, tell me how to use Flareon well, then?
>>58598741Flareon wasn't initially designed "wrong." It had 110 special, making it the second strongest fire STAB in the game. The problem was that fire sucked in gen 1.
>>58598769> Salamence went from good to great because it could use both of it's stats, Salamence went from good to great because suddenly it could use both its STABs on a single min/maxed stat instead of having to either split investment or having to go with only one STAB, retard.>Okay, tell me how to use Flareon well, then?By clicking Fire moves and realize they do more damage because of the free 1.5x damage and 2-4x damage multipliers.
we were actually having a good discussion for a bitwhat a shame
>>58598297I've begun to realize that, doing a regular playthrough, I kind of miss the stat exp system, if only because it meant more overall stats to work with for a Pokemon by the end game. It's kind of nice to have a few slower Pokemon able to outspeed something that should be faster.
>>58598773It was in the worst tier in Gen 1-3, and in Gen 3 doesn't even have a UU set which it did in Gen 2 (granted that's because RU sort of exists but whatever).>>58598795>By clicking Fire moves and realize they do more damage because of the free 1.5x damage and 2-4x damage multipliers.Got any stat calculations based on Flareon's movepools to back that up?
>>58598812problem with the stat exp system is that it only really makes any sense in the context of the rpg itselfonce you go to pvp there's no reason for it to even exist at all other than to make people arbitrarily grind all of their team members
>>58598816>It was in the worst tier in Gen 1-3I mean, it was still extremely slow. And as I said, fire sucked in gen 1.
Just merge all the stats until three remain: Health, Offense, Defense.Speed is completely scrapped and instead turn order is decided based on how many large anal object insertions a player can tolerate without passing out or otherwise having to expunge them. The more dragon dildos, the better.
>>58598807>we were actually having a good discussion until I actually had to make an argument to support my shitty conclusion
>>58598816>Got any stat calculations based on Flareon's movepools to back that up?0 SpA Flareon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Registeel: 158-186 (43.4 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery252 Atk Silk Scarf Flareon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Registeel: 45-54 (12.3 - 14.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
I was talking about you, yawnieI don't have issue debating with anyone else here because everyone else here isn't attention whoring
>>58598818Seeing as how Pokemon was designed to be one game, became split thanks to Nintendo suggesting the link cable (which also explains a lot of fuckery with Balance), and it wasn't until Gen 3 that they replaced it with EVs, it makes sense why it's designed like that and it's kind of nice to have Gen 1 and 2 have stat exp for a playthrough. Plus there's really no good way to play PvP for Gen 1 and 2 outside of Smogon, so while I can acknowledge everything is too tanky for the competitive scenes, it's not bad if you just want to run through the game from beginning to end.
>>58598837>you took a giant shit on my non-existent argument so that means you're attention whoring
oh now she's really mad
Remove all stats.Remove all move categories.Basically, remove everything except the Pokemon's appearance and type (but remove the type chart for good measure).Just make it so everything runs on playground rules. Whoever bullshits their team harder wins, dictated as soon as the other guy says "man fuck you, I don't wanna play anymore." and leaves.Problem solved, every single mon can now be viable if you just try hard enough, perfect meta diversity, anything is possible, exclusively rewards truly skilled and patient players. No RNG bullshit. No autistic optimization. No such thing as "bad stat spreads", "bad movepool", "bad ability", "bad type". None of that.All is right in the world. Pokemon is finally a good game.
>>58598818It's unlikely you'll ever max out EVs during a typical story playthrough, so there isn't much difference in the context of singleplayer.
>>58598297
>>58598297the balance was better before the power creep of minmaxed BSTs and ability distribution and stronger abilities/move choicesif you were to go back to phys/special split this would not solve the issue of Close Combat and Paradox mons existing
>>58598984Close Combat would be fine if it was kept strictly to fighting types, that way they could fully lean into their general theme of being reckless bruisers who tear themselves apart for big damage potential instead of the move commonly being found on other mons who can just shrug off the defense drops due to being fast sweepers who can also navigate around priority counterplay.You're right that freaks like Paradoxes are still gonna be a problem though, but this is just an extension of the problem that's been there since the very beginning. You don't see people frothing at the mouth to use Raticate in Gen 1 because Tauros exists.
i simply dont get why letting pokemon use their STAB moves effectively is a bad thing
>>58598297>The balance was better before the physical/special split. The split was a massive case of power creep that completely shifted the meta from defense to offense by basically buffing almost every Pokemon across the board. Before the split Pokemon were balanced more around their typing instead of every type and stat spread having access to generic good attacks which is less interesting.
>>58599007Every Pokemon already could use their STAB move effectively.
>>58599022I guess post split did no harm then.
>>58599022You are being incredibly dishonest. A pokemon with 130 attack and 40 special attack is not going to be winning much with that 40 special stat if it HAS to use it for STAB.
>>58599022So phys/spec split is a nothingburger? Why are people even mad about it?
>>58599028Of course he’s being dishonest. That’s what yawnfag does, make disingenuous posts and tank all quality discussion until people dump the board
It was their intention from the start to have the physical/special split. Why else would they have moves like Thunderpunch, Hyper Beam, Razor Wind, Bite, Sludge, Hyper Voice, or Leaf Blade?
>>58599033because you’re a retard who doesn’t understand the difference between physical/special and contact/no contact.
>>58599025>>58599029No, it made the game worse by making separate offensive stats pointless.>>58599028>A pokemon with 130 attack and 40 special attack is not going to be winning much with that 40 special stat if it HAS to use it for STABSays who? A Sneasel using Ice Beam against a Dragonite is still going to do a lot of damage.
>>58599022ah yes, sneasel could use its special STABs effectively with its 35 base SpA, versus its non-STABs at 95 base Atkthe only reason it isnt used as much post-split is because weavile exists. you can use sneasel in UU, and it does work.
>>58599075>ah yes, sneasel could use its special STABs effectively with its 35 base SpA, Yes. Do you know how STAB works? Do you know how type match ups work?
>>58599073But how could it make the game worse if all Pokemon already used their STAB effectively? Sounds like all Pokemon were already using both separate offensive stats effectively, you're just mad for literally no reason and can't prove how the split made things worse beyond "because I said so" while also simultaneously contradicting yourself.
>>58599075>the only reason it isnt used as much post-split is because weavile existsCool! So how do I use Weavile in UU where Sneasel isn’t?
>>58599075>>58599084>caring about fanfic metas made by people who don't actually play the gamesYou lost.
>>58599081>But how could it make the game worse if all Pokemon already used their STAB effectively?>>58598755
>>58599073>>585990750 SpA Sneasel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 172-208 (53.2 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO0 Atk Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 372-436 (115.1 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKOit cannot guarantee an OHKO without using its actual offense stat. it can go first, but it will die trying to be a special attacker when it was built physically.
>>58599084...why would you want to use weavile in uu? its an ou mon
>pisslow gives his opinionThey need to make a rule that you gotta prove you play in high elo comp pokemon before you can post terrible opinions
>>58599089>it cannot guarantee an OHKOSo? It still does more damage than any other move.
>>58598297Retard
>>58599101and it failed at getting an easy OHKO
>>58599091Oh….so why isn’t Sneasel UU then?
>>58599104And? It’s still the best option Sneasel has against Dragonite. Clearly it’s using its STABs effectively.
Why do you people keep falling for the most obvious bait possible
>>58599087I don't get it. Kingler has been using its STAB effectively this entire time.The split, functionally, has not changed Kingler. It's still being asked the same dilemma of "should I use Crabhammer for more crits that could score me a lucky boost-piercing KO, at the risk of missing my attack entirely, or should I use Surf for reliable, consistent damage that hits harder at its base?" that it has to solve in the pre-split games. The only difference is that now Kingler can use even more STAB options because it can use both of its attacking stats in tandem with STAB.
>>58599108not if, by using a physical move, it could have gotten an OHKO, which Ice Beam sneasel didnt get
You do realize you're inciting the use of Physical Chansey?
>>58599206Technically speaking, Chansey is using its STAB effectively because of Softboiled. But its primary role is a special defense support tank, not an attacker... unless it's gen 1.
Pokemon move distribution is somewhat separate issue from damage categories...
>>58599215>Chansey is using its STAB effectively because of SoftboiledSTAB on status moves sounds fucking nightmarish.
>>58599120>not if, by using a physical move, it could have gotten an OHKOWhich physical move can it get a OHKO with?
>>58599022Gengar has two different physical moves it sometimes uses, but they're neither ghost nor poison.
>>58599073>No, it made the game worse by making separate offensive stats pointless.How does that make the game worse?
>>58601330It makes Pokemon more one-dimensional and makes one stat on nearly everything completely pointless.
>>58601356>It makes Pokemon more one-dimensionalNot really. >and makes one stat on nearly everything completely pointless.Nothing stopping you from using the stat.
>>58601361>Not really.Yes really. When there is no incentive to ever use the lower stat, what purpose does that stat still serve?>Nothing stopping you from using the stat.Nothing is stopping me from going 252+ speed on Shuckle, either. But why would I?
>>58601370AnonPlenty of pokemon run an off-stat move.Garchomp has run Fire Blast since time immemorial. What the Physical/Special split actually did was open up more niches for pokemon to occupy stat-wise. Look at half the fucking gen 3 roster, they are stuck in types they can't use, with stats they can't use. Jusy look at Mighteyena.The other thing it did was fix the balance oversight of some types only ever having physical or special weaknesses, which is unhealthy.
The problem isn't even with the split, it's just powercreep. 120 BP Outrages from Latias and Latios don't exactly sound fun to deal with either. That's not even counting the other 120 BP moves that ended up becoming more and more common in every type with no huge downsides like Brave Bird or Flare Blitz.
>>58600413I think that a meta as overcentralized as GSC OU is neither better nor worse than a decentralized meta. Just different.Because the meta revolving around one Pokemon means that building your team to counter it is a valid strategy. Which is interesting.It's similar to VGC's restricted formats, but to an even more extreme degree because it's just one mon and not a handful of them.
>>58598423Yeah I hate shit like that. There's people like yawnfag and Regianon who do this, outside of this board there's tons of people who do this. Pretty much every debate in /pol/, Reddit and Twitter is like this.
>>58601416>Plenty of pokemon run an off-stat move.Not really.>Garchomp has run Fire Blast since time immemorialFire Fang is virtually always better.>Look at half the fucking gen 3 roster, they are stuck in types they can't useAccording to who? Does the game explode if you use them or something?>>58601519>Yeah I hate it when I can't actually refute posts that shit on my terrible arguments
>>58599065>Showing off that his school never taught probabilitythere's something about probability that can't be taught. I actually studied probability in an engineering school -I barely passed because I was a terrible student- and met plenty of people who were amazing at filling a sheet and answering tests, but unable to grasp probabilities at gut level. They knew the theory behind and were still able to use it analyticallyIMO that's the great divider between NPC people and non NPC people.
>>58601676>were still able to use it analyticallyI meant unable but you get the gist
>>58601416Keep in mind that types aren't only offensive.
>>58601657>Fire Fang is virtually always better.nope>252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 84-100 (21.3 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO>0 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 148-176 (37.6 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
>>58598617We don't
>>58598729And that's a problem hoe exactly?
>>58601676reminds me of how funny the conditional probability debates get, since it usually just comes down to semantics
>>58599065He is right about the ice type thing, Pokemon don’t exist independently of their types so it isn’t meaningful to talk about how “ice is a bad type to be”, the devs already know that it has a lot of weaknesses
>>58601676>>58601683Genuinely nice seeing a real post in a yawnseethe thread
>>58601786pretty much all of the posts that aren't yawnie baiting for replies have been fine, even among the people that aren't so much pro-splitit's almost like there's genuine arguments that can be made for or against split that no one ever hears because the only autists that ever make these threads are just fishing for (You)s
>>58598673>higher stat gives less of a return on EVs>lower stat receives a greater boost w/ EVsThat's exactly how it already works for every stat besides HP. Attacking and defensive stats aren't treated as flat values for damage calculation, they're treated as multipliers.
>>58601676Anyone can learn statistics, it’s really hard to know how to apply it correctly, and even more difficult to have an intuition for it you can readily apply to everyday situations or problemsI learned stats through the modern physics courses I had to take, but I’ve had to teach myself stats in order to be able to reason through anything not involving a wave equation
>>58601798I can understand pre-split discussion if it were discussed as an approximation of how RPGs handle ability type. Like it makes sense Fire spells, Ice, spells, Electric spells, ESP all qualify as special. Just like it makes sense that Fighting, Rock, Steel or Ground qualify as physicalProblem is this gets muddy with types like Ghost and Dark. Ghost was only made physical because the only move in Gen I that dealt real damage was Lick. That's a contact attack. But because Lick was physical, Shadow Ball had to be? Then there's the issue of all Dark moves pre-split becoming physical post-split. That was a failure of the old balance system not working as intended. Less said about Flying, the betterAny replies to my post asking single sentence questions should be raped
>>58601808my point is more that investing fully into a Gardevoir's Defense is going to give you the exact same number of points as investing them into an Avalugg, because EVs convert to points equally outside of differences in level or nature, and there's usually little reason to invest into frail defenses because the boost typically doesn't help them enough to be worth the attack tradeoff. there's fringe cases where it can be worth the trouble, but I think teambuilding would be more interesting overall if there was more merit to building unorthodox stat spreads
>>58601834The real answer was, is, and will always be that the physical/special split conceptually makes sense.The rest is fanfare. Some things got better, some things got worse, some things are up to taste, but ultimately it just *makes sense*.Pic not related. Posting coombait can only improve this garbage thread made by a garbage human being.
>>58598826THIS
>>58600253Icicle Crash, as mentioned in >>58599089
>>58601370>When there is no incentive to ever use the lower statThere is incentive, just like there is incentive to run Ice Beam on Sneasel in pre-split gens.>Nothing is stopping me from going 252+ speed on Shuckle, either.Yeah, and?
>>58602148>muh sneaselIt's the same exact argument every single time. Pick a different Pokemon for once.
>>58602153It's weird he picks a NFE mon in the first place. Also weird that Gligar contradicts his points since Gligar is better in Gen III because it actually gets STAB
>>58598297No. The physical/special split made stuff like elemental punches useful instead of absolute garbage.
>>58602228But Anon Alakazam should have stronger punches than Hitmonchan
>>58602238Alakazam is a weak puncher and he's better at using his spoon magic. Sorry.
>>58602258Unrelated it's really fucked up Alakazam NEVER got Thundebolt
>>58602264Ferrothorn not getting spiky shield is also egregious. As usual, Gamegreal doesn't put much thought into things.
>>58602163He has to keep using Sneasel for his disingenuous argument because he can ignore Weavile exists and go "look, see? the split made Sneasel worse for no reason!" given the extremely obvious of "no shit Sneasel looks worse on paper, it got a fucking evolution" (and if you point that out, he'll just ask "How do I use Weavile in UU?" like it's the ultimate gotcha)All this despite the fact he also mocks anyone who humors Smogon for being a "fanfic meta that's obsessed over by people who don't actually play the games" when there he is, literally obsessing over a fanfic meta as if it proves his point about the phys/spec split being a bad thing, rather than looking at VGC, which he always does for modern Pokemon comparatively (hence his obsession with that one time a Sheer Cold team got good RNG, proving "ice is actually a really good and underrated type, you just need to play the game.")
>>58598297you don't know what power creep is
>>58598795>Salamence went from good to great because suddenly it could use both its STABs on a single min/maxed stat instead of having to either split investment or having to go with only one STAB, retard.Ha no. Most Salamence sets are either mixed (choosing to invest a bit in both attack stats) or one attacking stat over the other. The fact that Salamence can immediately have at least three different builds, and there's no way to tell before you fight it says something.>By clicking Fire moves and realize they do more damage because of the free 1.5x damage and 2-4x damage multipliersAnd they end up doing less anyway because my non-Fire Physical moves do more. Only Physical Fire move it gets with decent power is Flare Blitz.>>58598834You had to cherrypick. Choosing a Pokémon with shitty Sp. Def, even with max EVs. Flareon's strongest move doing very little, even with max EVs it can't do anymore than a 2 shot.Then you go with a Physical move that Registeel, a Pokémon with decent Physical bulk resists. Wow. Now do with another Pokémon so that we know it's not a one off case.
>>58602238It's easier to teach an Alakazam to punch than it is to teach a Hitmonchan how to conjure fire, ice, and lightning
>>58599109I can’t tell if it’s bait or genuinely the most retarded opinions ever stated
>>58601834I think that physical and special types as a concept isn't a bad idea.I think that physical and special types were poorly implemented as they were in gens 1-3.Because GF kept making Pokemon whose typings didn't match their attacking stats. Which is fine in a vacuum, but not when they have to compete with Pokemon whose typings do match their attacking stats.And the fact that so many moves just didn't make intuitive sense with physical and special types was also not great. Like how is a kid supposed to know that Hitmonchan, the punching Pokemon, is terrible at using the elemental punches?If GF still hadn't implemented the split by now, you just know that they would be making moves like the punches and fangs into exceptions, where the move scales off of physical attack instead.
>>58602501it's just bait, people that genuinely believe in their stance can at least find a way to back it upmeanwhile you can always identify yawnie because they pick and choose what to argue with based on what if they can make a reductive 'counterargument' toeven the posts they reply to they'll usually just address a single tiny part of the actual post and ignore the rest, even if the rest of said post addresses the point they're pretending to make
>>58598297Actual retard
>>58603269They technically were, they were considered "contact" moves. Problem is contact doesn't really mean shit outside of abilities, which itself is a can of worms. Dark is obviously the biggest failure of the balance, if they were going to keep it 50/50 (which they couldn't because there was 17 types with no Fairy yet) then Dark should've been the Physical type and Ghost the Special type. It would've fucked over Banette, but it would've HEAVILY benefited so many more mons like Gengar, Misdreavus, Sneasel, Tyranitar, Gengar, Mightyena and of course AbsolPoison also doesn't really offer a good "Physical" status either. Game Freak even used Poison as the "Special Attack up" Max Move. That's how superfluous this system is in hindsight and genuinely why I don't like playing Gen III in particular. I can put up with this shit in Gen I and II, but by Gen III the IV/EV/Nature game just does not encourage this fuck ass system
>>58601676The thing is that Yawnfag's inability to understand probability goes beyond the inability of a normal person.You explain OHKO moves to a normal person, and they might think they're bad because a 30% chance to hit and a 70% chance to not hit means that OHKO moves are a waste of a move slot 70% of the time.If they're extra stupid, they might think that OHKO moves are OP because 4x30=120, which means that you're guaranteed to land an OHKO within 4 moves because 120% is more than 100%.When in reality, if you click an OHKO move twice, it has a 51% chance to hit, 3 times a 66% chance, 4 times a 76% chance, 5 times an 83% chance, 6 times an 88% chance, 7 times a 91% chance, and 8 times gives you a 94% chance of at least one hitting.With 8 PP, you will land your OHKO move an average of 2.4 times. Which, across 6 Pokemon, means that a sweep is actually pretty likely.To digress, Yawnfag is on an advanced level of retardation, claiming that OHKO moves will always work when you need them to, while simultaneously claiming that they're not OP because they only beat stall.It's not just that he's wrong, but that he operates under a misconception that should make him wrong in the complete opposite way.And this applies to every single opinion that he holds. It's almost impressive.
>>58599065Wojaks should be the free space.
>>58603367Most of the spaces could be the free space, honestly.
>>58603929I don't have every single one of his posts saved.Probably one of the times he posted the Ninetales Toxapex webm.
there's some merit to your argument but i'd fucking hate to see cm suicune on every generation
>>58604253I was just thinking about this fucker. Skarm-Bliss is one thing, but Calm Mind Suicune is legitimately fucking unkillable
>>58604341They should un-nerf Explosion.
>>58602375>Choosing a Pokémon with shitty Sp. Def, even with max EVs.Registeel has evenly distributed defenses. The two meta sets on smogon are mixed and special, both of them have a fire move.
>>58602375>Ha noHaha yes. It can now use Dragon moves on its highest stat instead of being forced to use them on its weaker one, dumbfuck.>And they end up doing less anyway because my non-Fire Physical moves do moreMaybe if you're a retard and don't understand how type match ups work.>w-wait no that example doesn't countConcession accepted.
>>58602046>Icicle Crash,How do I use Icicle Crash in Gen 3?
>>58603350>claiming that OHKO moves will always work when you need them toNo one in the history of /vp/ has ever argued this. Get a better strawman.>while simultaneously claiming that they're not OP because they only beat stallThey're not OP. If you're sitting around letting your opponent spam OHKO moves at you you're retarded and deserve to lose.
>>58603350>>58603929>>58604475My bad, I really did misremember.He actually said that you can inflict freeze on purpose.>>58551389I should have remembered right the first time, because that statement is even more retarded, considering how much less likely proccing a freeze is than landing an OHKO.
>>58604625>He actually said that you can inflict freeze on purposeWhich is correct.Just because Fire Blast can miss doesn't mean you can't land Fire Blast on purpose, dumbass schizo.
https://poal.me/bfqq6n
>>58604475>If you're sitting around letting your opponent spam OHKO moves at you you're retarded and deserve to lose.So what's stopping the bulky stallmon from just spamming OHKO moves itself?In fact, wouldn't it be even better at utilizing OHKO moves, since it's more likely to live a long time and get more chances to use them?
>>58598423>you win them by annoying the hell out of everyone until they give up on trying to debate youSo that's why this thread has been made for the eight billionth time.
>>58599065Two guaranteed bingos at the minimum.
>>58604457We get it, you're into cock vore.
>>58604206you're talking to yawnfag. if someone uses the name "sagefag" or "sagie", it's yawnfag.inb4 he parrots this
>>58605437You know as the saying goes: "parroting is an admission of defeat".Yawnfag got cucked.
