>designed to be a 2D powerhouse>can't handle Neo Geo/CPS2 ports without RAM expansion cartsI don't get it.
>>10939301in 1995-1998 nobody knew about that shit
RAM was expensive
And the monster Dual SH2 has slowdown running a 12 Mhz 68000 game.
>>10939301I think it's pretty obvious the "Saturn was a 2D powerhouse" thing is false when you bear in mind the only times it actually beat the Neo Geo/PSX in 2D were when it could leverage additional RAM via the cartridge slot. So obviously it wasn't actually architecturally superior for 2D. Even on a good day there's no way you could do a game like SotN on Saturn without massive compromises.
>>10939301it's just cope, the saturn was shit at 2d just like everything else
>>10939317literally everyone knew it. do you think people didn't discuss hardware back then?
>>10939402The lack of transparency/alpha blending modes makes it hilariously deficient just by that alone. That just so severely limits what you can do with 2D graphical effects.
>>10939301The CD medium is crippling.
Along a console is about cutting as many corners as you can get away with to reach a mass market price while at least looking cutting edge. They chose the wrong ones.
"2D powerhouse" is such a meme phrase. One youtuber called it that and now everybody calls it that. It's so gay. I don't care if it's "technically accurate", use your own damn language to describe it. If you can't figure out your own marketing term for it, just say it's good at 2D.
>>10939402SotN wasn’t even developed as a pure 2D game, it’s sprites pasted onto textured quads like every PS1 “2D” game, and running in a 3D engine is why the devs were able to throw in all sorts of polygon effects that didn’t survive the transition to Saturn very well. SotN was made specifically to take advantage of the PS1’s strengths and Konami gave it to an inexperienced and unskilled team to port to a completely different architecture, so of course it didn’t survive the transition very well.
Anyway who cares, all of this is 30-year-old bullshit, just play games
It still is more powerful at 2D than PS1.Games like SFA2, which didn't use extra RAM, have more animation frames and shorter load times than on PS1
>wtf a $399 console that released just four years later wasn't able to match a $649 console that offloaded a lot of work to its $200 cartridges? that's so weird!I love imbecile threads!
Neo Geo has a LOT more than 4 MB of RAM. The Neo Geo is also not a general 2d powerhouse. It is extremely powerful at displaying sprites, and that is it. So the fighting games are very impressive. The CPS2 is more of a powerhouse than the Saturn is.
>>10939416The Saturn isn't cutting edge at 2D. Sega obviously just wasn't expecting the competition that gen to be as fierce as it was and got slaughtered as a result. To be fair looking at the state of 2D games in 93 it's not that surprising, how could anyone have known games like Mario 64 and Half Life were around the corner when games like Alone in the Dark were the peak of what could be done with polygons.
>>10939425The Saturn is better at every single 2d effect than the Neo Geo except for animating very large sprites. The Neo Geo has one background layer.
>>10939420Contrary to what YouTubers have told you, Saturn was designed for 3D. If Saturn wasn't designed for 3D, it would be impossible to manipulate the vertices of sprites like on all true 2D consoles. Saturn lets you do that. Because it was designed for 3D. Any console that capable of rendering 150k textured polygons a second was designed for 3D. Do you understand yet? Good.3D is not why SotN would have been impossible on Saturn. It's because Saturn did not support various special effects like transparency or UV mapping on a hardware level. Because Sega was retarded and thought distorted sprites were a valid alternative to conventional polygons. Again note, that using distorted sprites and not conventional polygons does not mean the Saturn was "designed" for 2D, and not 3D.
>>10939479Same sort of ignorant autism where they sperg out about Doom not being 3d because it doesn't use modern standards.Yeah, the Saturn blows the previous console, literally called the 3DO, out of the water in 3D graphics, but it was "just an afterthought". Sounds very likely.
>>10939479none of that has anything to do with what I wrote
>>10939493You implied running on a 3D engine is why SotN could not have been done as well on Saturn. That's retarded, and wrong. Saturn could do a 3D engine just fine. PSX could do a 2D engine just fine. That has nothing to do with it.
>>10939497>impliedimply my nuts on your chin
>>10939301>OP is a faglook learn your shit before posting,ram expansion isn't needed to play in reality but 1:1 ports will take the same as playstation games to load (a little less but still),to avoid this the ram expansion was made.
>>10939427>Neo Geo has a LOT more than 4 mb ramIs this the fucking state this board is in? Where people just post bait constantly?
>>10939402just let sadturd enjoyers cope
>>10939604It has essentially unlimited memory from the cartridge.
>>10939427Doesn't the Neo Geo's RAM vary from game to game since the RAM is in the cartridges themselves?
>>10939301>2D powerhouseIt was designed for 3D>Neo GeoI try to tell Saturn fans this, there's no real reason not to play the original Neo Geo versions anyway either for free or for like $5 on Steam, vs. paying up the wazoo for something like Metal Slug or going through the extra frustration of trying to emulate the Saturn ports. I don't get it but w/e>CPS2Not all of them require the expansion carts, like Street Fighter Collection or Cyberbots for instance. CPS Changer was also basically dead on arrival so it was either this or the PS1 ports if you wanted to play them at home, or I guess FBA/MAME nowadays.
>>10939656It is ROM, but the assets can be accessed extremely fast from it at all times.
>>10939301To be fair, not even the Neo Geo CD could handle some of the AES/MVS conversions without changes...
>>10939615RAM IS NOT THE SAME AS ROM, what’s the point of talking about technical shit if you don’t use the right terms.
>>10939683>don't get it but w/eNot sure about Metal Slug but the fighting games have extra modes like training and some other stuff.Do modern Steam ports perform at 240p?
>>10939716RAM was named Random Access Memory (read cell #3 RIGHT NOW), as opposed to Sequential Access Memory (Can't do that before reading cell #1 and #2 first). ROM puts the emphasis on being Read-Only as opposed to Read-Write Memory. Most ROM are RAM.
>>10939754I pray that you return to whatever sick retarded autism portal you spawned from. You can’t store or modify information in ROM. “Most ROM is RAM” what the fuck are you talking about? I think you read a Wikipedia article about memory mapping and got very confused.
>>10939301Have you seen Neo Geo cartridges? You don't understand Neo Geo.
>>10939873>“Most ROM is RAM” what the fuck are you talking about?Read the first sentence of >>10939754. And know that the only property that defines RAM is the ability to read any arbitrary point on the memory chip without needing to go through all the preceding. Being able to be written to is not a defining property of RAM.
>>10939754>rom puts the emphasis on read-only>emphasisIt doesn’t matter if some rom doesn’t have to be read sequentially. The most important aspect of RAM is that’s it is VOLATILE and can be modified. When Fio collects a Rocket Lawn Chair in Metal Slug that information is stored in RAM, NEVER ROM. the amount of RAM the Neo Geo has at its disposal makes a difference and is certainly not anywhere close to 4mb which is why I initially started posting
>>10939902“Being able to be written to is not a defining property of RAM”You absolute idiot
>>10939902https://www.crucial.com/articles/about-memory/what-is-the-difference-between-ram-and-romEnjoy some reading material
>>10939915This is an article aimed at consumer. It's missing this line "What people commonly refer to as RAM and we're about to refer to as RAM below is a subset of a subset of a subset of RAM but you don't need to know that to buy our commonly referred to as RAM sticks"
>>10939902This is from Stanford university computer science department lecture materials. You can see it specifically refutes your point. I hope you learned something today
>>10939919Ok then visit the Stanford university computer science department and take it up with them
>>10939919https://web.stanford.edu/class/cs106e/lectureNotes/L06NHardwareMemory.pdf
>>10939921It says I'm right, but people have used and abused the term RAM so much it doesn't mean shit anymore and now it's used in opposition to ROM. Fuck maybe in 20 years we'll see RAM being used in opposition to deterministic access memory.
>>10939935Ok so you said “Being able to be written to is not a defining property of RAM”And this is saying the exact opposite of that… and somehow you took away that it says you’re right?
>>10939935Maybe in 20 years you’ll be dead and not shitting up the internet with autistic ravings about how everybody else is using words wrong.
another successful thread. great work, everybody. take the day off early and I’ll see you all on monday
>>10939941>First bullet pointI'm right>The circle I'm right>Second bullet point"People have been lazy about inventing terms so RAM drifted the fuck out of its boundary.">Third and fourth"Here's what nu-people called RAM">>10939948How many bytes are there in 1 kilobyte?
>>10939961Pure cope, is nu-people the term you use for everyone who isn’t you? I’ve got news for you: language evolves. A term like decimate used to mean something very different than it does now. We need a way to refer to fast volatile read-write memory and the term we use is RAM. You are getting hung up on the etymology because you are autistic and retarded. A most regrettable combo.
>>10939961 > that the only property that defines RAM is the ability to read any arbitrary point on the memory chip without needing to go through all the preceding. Being able to be written to is not a defining property of RAM.Got a source for that pal?
>>10939961Nice attempt to derail with kilobyte question, I’m sure you’re equally annoying on that subject. You can argue with these people:https://www.quora.com/Is-a-KB-1000-or-1024-bytes
How much dedotated wam does it take to saturn?
>>10939301>designed to be a 2D powerhouse>launch title is a 3D fighting gameWhat did they mean by this?
Just 1mb of additional RAM would have made all the difference for both the PS1 and the Saturn. Support for 384x224 was also something that should have been added from the outset.
>>10939873NTA but he's right.
>>10939919I bet it would really blow their minds to learn that the data on the disc is also a type of RAM.
>>10940356Ah yes, the well known generally accepted term “CD-RAM”
The 32x was supposed to be the 2d powerhouse Or maybe that was the sega cd
>>10939301It could, the problem was this fucking thing was over engineered and people didn't understand assigning tasks to multiple processors like what it had. Some games actually run worse with ram expansion due to mishandled management.
>>10940438It was literally the Genesis. Those two both made it a lot more powerful though
>>10940352This is like calling your iPad a phone and then when it’s pointed out that the primary aspect of a phone is sending and receiving phone calls you argue the defining property of a phone is a touch screen.
>>10939420> like every PS1 “2D” gameYour mental model about the ps1 is seriously off, this is a common misunderstanding. The ps1 is not inherantly more 3d than the saturn. Both the saturn and ps1 gpus are strictly 2d and know nothing of 3d. Most 2d games on the ps1 are not going to contain a cohesive 3d scene even if they have some 3d elements, they are not 3d engines in the way that a proper 3d game is.
>>10939497your insistence doesnt bear out to what was released and produced in history.
>>10940485>Both the saturn and ps1 gpus are strictly 2d and know nothing of 3dWhat are you talking about, retard.
>>10939420So the Saturn sucks then . Cool. Thanks for confirming what I already knew
The saturn sucks but it's still one of my favorite consoles. I have fond memories of my friends inviting me over to play virtua fighter and light gun games.
>>10940864Congrats on being intentionally stupid, I guess.
>>10940832He thinks they have to have fully realized 3D engines modeled by their GPUs to be considered 3D consoles, despite the fact that they both render shaded and textured polygons natively.
>>10940832The gpus on both machines take xy screen space coordinates and draw 2d shapes. Neither has any concept of the z axis. 3d only exists in the game software, once it gets to the gpu its all just 2d shapes.
>>10940464That's like calling a rotary phone a phone and people pop out of the ground to argue that a phone needs a touchscreen and wireless capability because that's what people expect from a phone now.
>>10939402The strength in 2D comes from VDP2, the background layer chip, not VDP1 the sprite/quad chip.So if a game leverages VDP2 well, it's going to do better on Saturn. If it leans more into VDP1, it's going to suffer.>>10939410The System can do transparency/alpha blending on VDP2 just fine, the issue is on VDP1 where it gets tricky. It can technically do it but there's a lot of caveats.>>10939479SotN's issue is more that it was badly ported. The game wastes 2 VDP2 layers to draw text that almost never gets drawn. 1 layer for Debug text, another for Story dialogue test. So even if Debug mode is not enabled and you're not currently seeing a story scene, those layers and the RAM for it is still reserved for those purposes. As a result a lot gets handed off to VDP1 which really should be on VDP2, which really hurts fill rate performance on VDP1. Throw in that the game is drawing more screen real estate, is horribly optimized, and checking tons of game state flags every VBlank that it shouldn't need to check every VBlank and you have a recipe for horrible performance.
>>10939689Of course there's ROM in its cartridges, because how else would you store the games? But I thought each cart had its own RAM too.
>>10940485They're both designed to do 3D, but they do 3D in weird ways that aren't like modern GPUs. The N64 was the first console (AFAIK) to do 3D the modern way.
>>10941879You can directly use data from carts without loading it into ram first. Thats the downside of CDs in this era.Just look at the neo geo CD which has a ton more ram over the cart system (and still isn't enough at times)
>>10941913So besides storing small variables, what do cart systems use RAM for then?
>>10939423Because they pumped out a BOATLOAD more back then so that's why people go back to this stuff for ideas PLUS no extra downloads, no internet needed, etcIt lives on forever because of those reasons
>>10941945Plus your mom wearing that swimsuit in the 90s tanning in the backyard and asking me if I wanted some lemonade and she bent over in front of the fridge multiple time Never forget that
>>10940356No, idiot. That's Read Only Memory, RAM is volatile and rewritable by nature. Stop posting.
>>10941921Mostly for storing the state of player, enemies, projectiles, current level, etc.Keep in mind that the Neo Geo itself also has very little ram (roughly the same as the snes/genesis)>64KB RAM, 84KB VRAM, 2KB Sound MemoryIt only works because the system can directly access the rom of the cart.Thats why the ps1 and saturn struggle with neo geo ports, despite having a lot more ram available to them.
>>10939417>One youtuber called it thatIt's common vernacular, even being used often to describe consoles in 90's gaming mags.
>>109394172D mitochondria
>>10941921Without the ability to store any data in ram, video games would not have any interactivity. Every single meaningful user input is represented in RAM. If you play DnD think of the cartridge as the dungeon masters guide or monster manual, and the RAM is your character sheet and graph paper or whatever you write on (I don’t play DnD), the interactivity that makes video games what they are is only possible with RAM. The amount of RAM available to the cpu affects gameplay greatly. For example, the reason an enemy in ninja gaiden keeps respawning when you move to the left and back to the right even if you kill them initially is because the programmers decided (due to scarcity) that they would not write that information into ram. However in super Mario brothers 3, that information is stored in ram so you don’t get respawning koopas all the time. Every developer has to make decisions about what they want to store in ram and what they don’t. Talented programmers can make more efficient use of ram. The take away is that it’s an important resource that should not be conflated with the read only memory in a cartridge.
>>10941548I get what you’re trying to say but it doesn’t make sense because you are stuck on how the phone is operated vs what the phone actually does. Every single explanation of WHAT RAM IS that you can find explains the read-write aspect first and foremost.
>>10941879No, this is not true, you most likely were misled by the same retarded people arguing in this thread that ROM and RAM are the same because neither has to be read sequentially. Including RAM in a neo geo cartridge would have been astronomically expensive
>>10942184No it isn't. Google "2D Powerhouse", the only results are about the Saturn.
>>10939409NTA but no, I don't. For one thing you didn't have to know shit about hardware to play console games. It wasn't like playing PC games in the DOS era where you had to troubleshoot stuff to make it work. Most console gamers in the 90s were kids or teenagers, who mostly didn't care about those details. The only place in depth conversations about hardware specifics regularly occurred would've been on niche forums on the web which a lot of people still didn't have access to since most homes didn't even own a computer.
>>10942857Good explanation.>>10942946It was something I heard many, many years ago, and if it's true, I can see why it would've contributed to the high cost of the Neo Geo's cartridges. I dunno, does anyone have a Neo Geo cart they'd be willing to disassemble to show what's inside?
>>10939301>designed to be a gaming shithouse
>>10943376I made a good faith effort to find any information about this on Google and came up empty. I even searched beyond Neo Geo thinking maybe the super FX chip games for snes may have included a small amount of ram (not vram) but came up empty. Let me know if you find anything, it’s an interesting question. I would think it’s not viable because the speed at which the CPU would read/write to cartridge based ram would be bottlenecked significantly since it is not on the system bus, so it kind of defeats the point. But maybe there was some crazy configuration where it somehow made sense, there was a lot of wild architecture back then.
>>10943558Looks like the early nes battery save cartridges used ram actually, and the battery was basically used to keep the very tiny amount of memory turned on so it wouldn’t get erased without power. Neo Geo on the other hand used memory cards
>>10939301>another shiturn thread
>>10939716Neo geo basically treats the cartridge the same way newer systems treat ram. Neo geo, nes and atari 2600 display the graphics in rom as if it is stored in ram. It is kind of true to say the entire cart can be equivalent to ram but neo geo would only display a small portion of the cart to screen at once with the bigger carts reaching over 50mb. 16mb of ram should be good enough to display any neo geo game with loading between levels and 8mb should be ok for a decent number of games.
>>10941648>The System can do transparency/alpha blending on VDP2 just fineEven when it can do it it's highly limited, only 50% opacity is supported.
CPS2 kept getting harder and harder to load into the RAM from SSF2
>>10944556I’m curious where this idea if coming from? Can you provide a source? It sounds like you don’t understand how old consoles OR new ones work. Maybe read the rest of the thread, there is some good information about what RAM does and why it is important
>>10944854Not disagreeing with the comments, used to change the rom chips in nes carts with old pc bios chips to have romhack graphics and noticed how if you jiggle the chip you can make the graphics change or even just swap chips midgame to change the graphics. So I think neo geo would have trouble running Rayman but some of the neo geo ports on Saturn look so cheap with their cut down animations so the Neo Geo can beat it visually. With ps1 and Saturn those 2D games hit a limit that you can notice after looking at a few games but Neo Geo pushed past it with its animations and background detail. My Neo Geo AES would also have glitched graphics until you tapped the cart lightly and it wouldn't crash the game.
>>10939301Those arcade games ran on boards with chips, the Saturn uses a CD drive which isn't going to be anywhere near as fast at data transfers. The way the home ports were done for PS1 and Saturn was that it'd dump as many assets it'd need into RAM instead of relying on the CD to load them in. PS1 had a tiny amount of RAM, which is why most of its Capcom and SNK ports were wholly stripped down to shit. Saturn's RAM expansion carts circumvented this issue by giving these ports a whole lot more memory to dump assets to.
>>10945326Except for the part where that cartridge memory cannot be modified. That’s the main distinction being squabbled over in this thread. Pulling the graphics directly from the cartridge is great and all, but the difference between 64kb of ram on the Neo geo and the 2mb or however much the Saturn has is important. The Neo geo could never run a game like virtual hydride for example because regardless of how much graphics data you pull from the cart you can’t store all the information that is procedurally generated such as item locations/map data/etc … 64k is just not enough.
>>10947051>The Neo geo could never run a game like virtual hydride for example because regardless of how much graphics data you pull from the cart you can’t store all the information that is procedurally generated such as item locations/map data/etcSauce? It sounds very much like you don't know how that game actually works and couldn't code your way out of a wet paper bag.
>>10947920From Segaretro.org "The game's worlds are somewhat randomly generated, with twenty different level layouts for each of the seven dungeons and the overworld, leading to 25.6 billion possible combinations, all but guaranteeing that each playthrough of Virtual Hydlide is different." The game uses a seed code to generate the layout for dungeons and overworld. Where the fuck do you think that information is initially stored mister pedantic shit talker?
>>10948598Not him, but the only value of interest here is the initial seed value which is just a single number, that seed value is the only persistent information you need to store really as it can generate all content based on that single value dynamically. Usually a game generates some content up ahead around the player, but never a full world as thats just waisting resources really.
>>10948623You’re technically right that they wouldnt store the entire generated world at once, but you still need way more than 64kb of working memory to run even the current "slice" of the game generated by the seed code. Also T&E soft not exactly known for the most elegant programming
>>10941648>The System can do transparency/alpha blending on VDP2 just fine, the issue is on VDP1 where it gets tricky. It can technically do it but there's a lot of caveats.Exactly. Doing it on VDP1 is too demanding (or else every dev would have done it)The problem is VDP1 gives all of the sprites/polygons it draws to VDP2 as a single layer, so VDP2 can't do transparency between sprites/polygons, since it can only do it between different layers.This picture is a perfect example. When VDP1 draws, everything is opaque, so anything under something else gets overwritten. VDP2 receives the layer with a flag on the shadow's pixels telling it to make it transparent but the elevator's pixels were overwritten when VDP1 rendered the shadow, because both the shadow and elevator are drawn by VDP1. In most of the game this isn't a problem because the pre-rendered backgrounds are a different VDP2 layer, but as soon as the shadow is over something drawn by VDP1, it eats it.
>>10948598>source: my misunderstanding of a blog post due to my complete and utter lack of knowledge of how software workslmfao>25.6 billion possible combinationsThat requires 35 bits to store, kiddo. Not K, not bytes, bits.>Where the fuck do you think that information is initially storedObviously on the CD-ROM. >mister pedantic shit talkerI accept your concession>but you still need way more than 64kb of working memory to run even the current "slice" of the game generated by the seed code.Sauce? Don't answer. It's a rhetorical question. The answer is obviously, once again, "my ass"lrn2code
>>10943572And the memory cards also used a battery lolAlso ALL NES games use battery backup. None of them used flash memory>>10942110Right. And as >>10945724 correctly points out, the extra memory on Saturn is because it can't load data fast enough from a slow ass 2X CD. The RAM cart is so they can load as much as possible from a much faster source (the cart). That's why the 4MB games hardly load at all after initial boot and why they're basically perfect ports aside from the screen resolution So much dumbassery in this thread
>>10948598>Virtual HydlideI love this game. The first part with the graveyard item hunting and vampire’s mansion (with vampire end boss of course) is so much fun.
>>10939417The mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell.
>>10941921>So besides storing small variables, what do cart systems use RAM for then?graphics.for two reasons. one, many cart systems can't display graphics directly from the cart. they have to load the graphics into video memory, which is the only place they can display graphics from. two, ROMs cost bajillions of dollars so they compressed the graphics to save space. this could be as simple as RLE decompressed in software, or as complex as hardware decompression by co-processors (SDD1). this was decompressed into video memory for display. the time this took could range from the 1-2 seconds between level transitions so you wouldn't notice, or having loading screens in some SNES games.
>>10942857>Without the ability to store any data in ram, video games would not have any interactivity.Atari 2600 managed to have user interactivity with 128 bytes of RAM and no VRAM.
>>10950886128 bytes > 0 bytes
>>10950169>The problem is VDP1 gives all of the sprites/polygons it draws to VDP2 as a single layer,vdp1 can send z bits in the graphics data to sort pixels behind or over backgrounds. of course it was just like 3 bits at most and you were forced to use indexed graphics (making 3d and lightning a lot more complicated). it's also useless in anything but lowest graphics resolutions because in higher resolutions you only have 8 bits total for graphics + blending + z.vdp1 transparency itself only worked in rgb framebuffer mode, which also limited you to lowest resolution, but it made lightning really easy. it also had no vdp2 blending bits, so you couldn't blend vdp1 to vdp2 in this mode.so, you either did background transparency, or 3d transparency. background transparency was faster (the vdp2 did it at no speed cost), so most games used that.
>>10950904I'm probably overlooking some stuff but I wonder why they couldn't do some transparency with the dash effect in Mega Man X4. Just make it draw under anything else drawn by VDP1 so it doesn't eat anythingUnless there's way more background stuff drawn by VDP1 than I thought and it would always get eaten by tons of stuff
ITT: people who are idiots act like they know anything for the entire thread
>>10939425>just four yearsAn eon of technological leaps in the home console market circa the 90’s
>>10939935You've done this before in other threads. The issue with your inane babbling is that you somehow don't understand that read only means you can't modify it. There's nothing to be written in there. It cannot be used as RAM because it's not writable.Stop embarrassing yourself.
>>10950893You actually CAN make a game on the 2600 without using those 128 bytes of RAM.I believe Pong only used the TIA's registers.
>Be OP>Designed to reproduce>Is a ragging faggotI don’t get it.
>>10950917It was a retard port that's why. Saturn can do any transparency trick the SNES can, but the thing is: it can't do more. So it could have done X4 just fine but it never could have done SOTN.
>>10951512I've seen people shitting on developers before when it comes to Saturn & transparancy development but this is really unfair.Developers should not have to waste their time and effort just to do something as basic as a transparant sprite, using mesh transparancies is just the convenient way of doing things on the Saturn.In the end it's SEGAs fault for designing the hardware in such a piece of shit way.
Saturn sprite pushing capabilities smoke Neo Geo easily. It's the CD-media/RAM related bottleneck that don't allow it it have arcade perfect ports.
>>10951598They had the cart slot, couldn't they have made it accept game carts as well?
>>10951760KOF95 came with a ROM cart, but it must have been unfeasible as an approach because they used the 1MB RAM cart for games after that.
>>10951532Developers will always have to work around hardware limitations, it's literally their job. Shitting on them when there was a simple fix that they didn't do is fair game.By the same logic we could claim it's bullshit that the PS1 required devs to write a dynamic tesselator to avoid horrendous affine warping on floors/walls when sony could have added perspective correction or hardware tesselation. All hardware is tradeoffs and devs will always complain that their job isn't piss easy. It's human nature.I've been reading old Edge magazines from around the launch of the PS2 and it's hilarious how many dev studios were bitching about the PS2 and how difficult it was and how the tools were inadequate. Meanwhile Kojima's studio realised the tools were never going to appear in time and just built all their own stuff and pwnt the entire E3.
>>10950778>That requires 35 bits to store, kiddo. Not K, not bytes, bits.STORING the seed, yes, that's all it takes. But not even your STRONGK gaymen PC can run the procedural generation every frame to figure out what to draw let alone having to do it all over to test for collisions and other game logic elements. As much as it would be a functional-bro's wet dream for a totally stateless game with no RAM the only practical way to achieve it in the real world means you need a considerable amount of RAM to store the generated state. At the very least you segment the world so you only have to store the state for a small area and then purge and regenerate the next area based on your 35bit seed and the current iterator.
>>10939417Yuji Naka called it that too
>>10939479>Contrary to what YouTubers have told you, Saturn was designed for 3D.Is Yukio Futatsugi a Youtuber too, you schizo?
>>10951760That explicitly went against Sega's licensing. Carts could not contain game code, presumably to avoid cartridge copiers.
>>10940356CDs are Sequential Access not Random Access you retarded mouthbreather
>>10939414Im gonna cripple your mom with my dick faggot.
Virtua Racing came out in 1992 not long after the Saturn would have entered development. Sega designing a 2D console after seeing how revolutionary 3D was proves that they were a complete failure of a company who deserved to go out of business.
>>10952125The reason they even went with a Dual-SH2 configuration is because they were going for 3D.They just went an awkward way about it with quads instead of polygons.>According to Kazuhiro Hamada, Sega's section chief for Saturn development during the system's conception, "the SH-2 was chosen for reasons of cost and efficiency. The chip has a calculation system similar to a DSP [digital signal processor], but we realized that a single CPU would not be enough to calculate a 3D world."
>>10950778I don't think I've ever seen this level of delusion before... You think the proceduralky generated map layout is stored on the cd rom?
>>10951512>It was a retard portMMX4 was originally supposed to be a Saturn exclusive. If anything it's the PS1 version that's the port
>>10951968>all that word salad buffetJust stop. You're only embarrassing yourself. You have no idea how the game works. You have no idea how to code.>>10952281>You think the reading comprehension is stored in my head?Nope. There's no reading comprehension, coding knowledge, or understanding of how the game works in there at all. Pretty sure it's entirely empty
>>10952221>The reason they even went with a Dual-SH2 configuration is because they were going for 3DAnd the reason why they did that was because they saw the PS1 and realized they needed to do 3D. It wasn't originally in the plans but they panicked and added a second SH-2. Hideki Sato, the guy who designed the Saturn and most of Sega's consoles talks about it in an interview (pic related)
>>10939301I don't understand why this board obsesses over this machine. Wasn't it like $800+ in 1990's dollars? Nobody could afford that shit. >What could have saved The Saturn? Duh. Make it cheaper. It's just like Apple being confused and disoriented because nobody wants to give them $3499 for their meme VR headset.
>>10952503>Wasn't it like $800+ in 1990's dollars?No? It was $399 at launch. You're probably thinking of the 3DO.
>>10952453So you resort to ad hom and appeal to authority rather than anything substantial. Got it, thanks for playing. Better luck next time.
>>10939427>The CPS2 is more of a powerhouse than the Saturn is.Bullshit, CPSIII used the same CPU at a similar speed. RAM was the limiter.
>>10951991Prove it.
>>10952736The CPU has very little to do with the graphical capabilities of the machine, the gpu is what renders graphics.
>>10939301>2D powerhouse>the undisputed best game on the system is a fully 3D third person shooterWhat da??
>>10953493>undisputed best gameit’s good, but maybe not that good
>>10953498What competition is there? NiGHTS? I like that game a lot but it's not everyone's cup of tea, and it's a little too abstract. Sakura Wars? Too much waiting around, and dating sims are kind of a gay genre anyway. Guardian Heroes? I dunno, there's better beat 'em ups out there. Panzer Dragoon? I never played Saga, but the first two are just okay.I like Gungriffon but it's too short. Stellar Assault SS would be kino if it didn't have like 15 FUCKING minutes of unskippable cutscenes in an arcade-y game with no saving.
>>10953506Shining Force III
>>10939754You're an absolute, grade A, imbecile.
All those retards from Sega had to do in order to save the Saturn is to make it play all the MD-32x games without needing any custom adapters.
Just found out that Digital Foundry's Richard Leadbetter was a Saturnfag back when he was a staff writer at C&VG mag
>>10952573>So you resort to ad hom and appeal to authorityYou don't even know what the words you're using mean. And like saying you know fuck all about coding, that's a fact. This is a classic case of "be careful what you wish for". If you want to get attention by bullshiting on the internet, remember that the attention you get might not be the kind you'd hoped for.
>>10955331>listen sonny actions have consequences on this here websiteI think you got lost on your way to the reddit mod discord. Go flap your pussy lips some where else. Nobody cares what you have to say here If you can’t be either funny or insightful. Just saying learn2code on a video game board is faggotry of the highest order
>>10952061That is not true.
>>10954894>loved powerslave, knew saturn was the gamers consolebased
>>10954702Yes, lets make it an even more expensive by grafting on an entire genesis. Hardly any hardware is in common between the two systems, might as well just keep them seperate.
>>10954894Always amazes me that people can write such retarded cringe shit without feeling embarrased
>>10953493>fully 3D?
>>10956763It was unironically a different time (and place). Everybody’s covering their asses these days any time they say something.
Wow almost as if arcade hardware ran circles around console hardware until the 2000s
I was playing Medal of Honor on PS1 and it can't even render a ladder correctly lol. If you look up while on a ladder, the ladder itself bends 90 degrees into the direction behind you instead above you. I'm also noticing a lot of people who clearly weren't even on the internet 20 years ago,let alone the 90s, trying to tell us what language we did and did not use. That's really fucking weird and those of you doing that are weirdos.
>>10956763Sorry your modern sensibilities made what was once normal seem totally foreign to you.
>>10951856>Developers will always have to work around hardware limitations, it's literally their job.no, their job is to get the game working on the hardware by the deadline. that's it. if the console has shit dev kits and requires billion tricks to render transparency... then they won't add transparency.even Exhumed, the game made by the most insane autismo devs, had no 3d transparency on it because the console sucked. live with it.
>>10939301I just thought that arcade hardware just has that much more RAM or whatever was needed for a game. The ports on the Saturn were fine for me in those days.
>>10952050Why did they design it to be able to boot software from the cartridge slot, then? In case they just changed their minds later?
>>10959641Because they changed their mind later. The original documentation didn't include that restriction.
hello fellow ACTION REPLAY chads. How are we enjoying never losing our saves AND having 4 megs of ram for every game?
>>10939301Neo geo has 7.5 MB ram. Playstation has 3.5 MB ram. Saturn has 4.5 MB ram. What exactly gives you trouble understanding OP?
>>10962426>Neo geo has 7.5 MB ramLol
>>10939301>2D powerhouse>when everyone and their mother wanted a piece of the 3D piewhat a shit idea
>>10956643>the most expensive 32-bit console was also the shittiest one performance-wise Should've had made the Neptune real beforehand then.
>>10962602IIRC Sega of America wanted the Saturn to have a Motorola 68020 processor for Genesis backwards compatibility, but Sega of Japan nixed the idea because they thought it was too underpowered.
>>10939301stock saturn has 50% more VRAM than PS1, which does allow for sprites. it just still wasn't enough for neo geo/cps2 ports. because those systems could just read sprite data directly from their solid state ROM memory very fast and get the exact ones they needed each frame that way. saturn used CDs as its removable storage medium and had to load every single one that would be needed in a stage/level (or at least a big section of it) at first. the only way to make reading CDs fast is to read large chunks of data at once, but it becomes a problem when those chunks get too big to actually fit inside RAM/VRAM, so an expansion cartridge was the only way to go to avoid downgrading those games.>>10939414this is actually true in a certain way, as i've written above
>>10951991No he didn’t, he speaks fucking Japanese you retard.
>>10962606Trying to run genesis games on a 68020 would result in some compatability issues. The instruction timings are significantly different for one.
as a zoomer reading this thread I have determined that over half of you are lying about what this thing is capable of because you are STILL fighting a war for a system that came out 30 years ago this November. I hope there is never a console in my life time that makes niggas cope and seeth the way the Saturn does. Policenauts is pretty good tho.
>>10962825SEGA people are just weird like that.
>>10962825>>10962825What? Youre reading too much into, sonny. It's really just a few people actually upset, most people are just discussing hypotheticals because it's fun.
>>10962825No duh. You're dealing with people who genuinely think the Saturn was so powerful it was impossible for most programmers to effectively code on, similar to the PS2, ignoring the fact that people were able to do incredible things with that console and absolutely no one ever managed to make anything comparable to the state of the art on PS1 during the Saturn's lifetime. Even shit like Sonic R could barely pass for a '95 release on PS1.
>>10962825>as a zoomerWell there's yer problem
>>10952221>>10939420>>10941648>Saturn's performance got sabotaged by software devs who thought quad-rendering was a meme and did shit like they always did instead, just like nobody bothered learning how the Atari Jaguar and PS3 architecture functioned, resulting in games incabale of properly utilizing the respective consoles hardware efficently Pike lottery.
