wavedashing

It had the best combination of both competitive and single-player/casual appeal in the series. Every other title is too imbalanced in this regard or just didn't appeal enough to either group.

>>11045939
yes
>>11045960
>>11045975

>>11045939
The best is actually Brawl

I hold the incredibly strange opinion that it's the funnest one to play alone because of the variety of unlock requirements. In the summer I used to pull out my memory card and spend afternoons getting everything but Mewtwo (and by extension G&W)

>>11046001
That's not strange at all, I've seen that sentiment a lot and I agree with it.

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>>11045939
momentum and physics are the most fundamental parts of how the game is coded and it feels amazing, regardless of competition or casualness.
I read somewhere that melee and smash 64 check for momentum before checking entity position whereas the games afterwards would do it the other way around and that sounds like utter gobbledygook... but I believe it

64 had the best basic combat + shields but melee makes up for it with characters, stages, event mode, and so forth.

>>11046017
This. Momentum is such a fundamental aspect of making these kind of games fun to play, and considering how meticulous Sakurai is I have no idea why he removed it from Brawl and all games going forward.

>>11046059
To remove wave dashing

>>11045939
it is the most fast paced one and therefore requires a good amount of practice and skill. in terms of style and design its probably the most 'grown up' game of the series which is why many people like it. its from an era in which nintendo still tried to appeal to the emerging 'hardcore gamer' which was associated with the back then now grown up 90s kids generation.

>>11045939
The newest one has surpassed melee in total fun. but melee is the best mechanics wise

It's the best game ever made

>>11045939
Best of both worlds. If you didn't have friends over you could load it up and unlock a bunch of cool shit. If you had friends over you'd play multiplayer and have a great time learning the mechanics. The latest game has an awful and boring single player mode with nothing of substance to unlock and the multiplayer mode is lacking in fun tech.

>>11046361
modern smash just cant compete

It's good but I fucking hate Crouch Cancel and ASDI down as mechanics.

>>11045939
No the Playstation 2 version is better because it had Roy and Marth. Link is good but they are better. Counterattack was revolutionary and incredibly cheap. I loved it my friends hated it. We played both versions.

>>11045987
This

Subspace Emissary was better than every other single player combined. We finally got Sonic and a ton of other characters we’d been waiting for. The theme is the best by far.

>>11045987
>>11046441
I'm on the side of people who actually liked Subspace Emissary but the actual fighting in the game ie the main point of it sucked.

>>11046441
>>11045987
Brawl will always have a special place in my heart for SSE, but the combat fucking sucks and its obvious even at a casual level.

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>>11046428
>smoking literal crack

>>11046520
Should have made Bra and given fans what they wanted

Playing Melee brand new in 2001 was quite the experience.

>>11045939
I do, the amount of trophies, hidden characters (we found Mewtwo by total accident just through playing as much as we did, same for the pokefloats stage), the increasing difficulty of the events, stage variety. Yeah it was awesome. I liked SSE I think most people did but we still popped melee over brawl in to the wii for fight night. Smash for Wii u and 3ds were stale. Don't own a switch. Smash remix I really don't care for but cool if you do.

>be fighting game fan (Capcom /SNK)
>never really tried smash
>heard it memed as a "party game" so I guess it's easy?…
>try Melee because of its rep
>wtf
>combos per se don't exist, one off hits for most part
>the movement is entirely free form and all over the place
>watch a 101 video on the game
>more questions than answers, load of techniques 10x more autistic than anything I've seen in 2d fighters
>still have barely ANY idea how it's played
>try to see how the pros play
>looks like haphazard movement with every single jump / step being cancelled
And these people complain about quarter circles?? This is supposed to be an """accessible""" """"party"""" game?
Anyway, maybe it's me, but in single it felt a bit boring. But, yeah, my skill in this game is obviously worse than an 8yo kid's. And playing with analog is just shit btw.

>>11049053
I'm someone with an opposite path, started with Smash and then went to traditional 2D fighters. And I can say Smash makes a LOT less sense than 2D fighters. There's a ton of jank, weird interactions, specific properties, stupid hitboxes and so on. It has a very unique learning curve that goes beyond footsies and labbing combos. And many times the game will surprise you with something you've never seen before. Even at a competitive level you can tell the game was supposed to be silly, but we try to make it work.

>>11049283
Yeah, that's exactly how I felt. It's like I can hardly even predict where the opponent will be after a hit. 2D fighters are far more predictable and streamlined in comparison.

>>11045939
as a casual I say so. not polluted with jarring characters and it feels nice. my friends were much more competitive but i was still able to jump in and provide a good scrap. sigh, i miss those days.

>>11049053
When you're playing the game skillfully, it's pretty far from an accessible party game. That's why they had to gut brawl as hard as they did. Sakurai got pissed that the skill ceiling was too high.
>combos per se don't exist, one off hits for most part
Not exactly. The way combos work is that getting hit triggers knockback, but hitstun lasts longer than hitlag, so you can usually chase down your opponent and continue the combo before they are actionable. There is a universal defense mechanic called directional influence, though, which changes the angle the move will knock you back. You can hold out to fly farther and try to escape combos (downside being you get knocked off the stage more easily) or you can hold in to stay on stage (downside being you are now easier to chase down and combo). This makes defensive play very reactive and strategic.
This is also what turns Melee players off of most fighting games. Getting stuck in your opponents combo feels boring because there's nothing you can do besides wait for the combo to end, whereas in Melee you are making defensive decisions every time you are hit.
I've never really seen melee players complain about quarter circles and stuff. Melee has much more difficult tech than that. Hell, Leffen won guilty gear evo last year. It's mostly the post-brawl players that get pissed when a game demands any amount of technical skill from them. melee people often get roped in with the smash 4 / ultimate players, but there's really not that much overlap these days. If you see some weird contradiction in opinions / standards, conflating ult players and melee players opinions is usually the reason.

>>11045939
No. It's a rushed and buggy PoS.
The only Smash games I like are 64 and Ultimate. Brawl's single player content was great too.

>>11051520
Oh I see, thanks for the explanation. Yeah, I didn't really divide Melee players from the nu-Smash. What changed in Brawl anyway? I always hear that it dumbed things down, but I don't know how exactly.
As for combos, that's sort of what I meant. Like, by definition "combo" in 2D is quite literally "inescapable sequence of attacks". And there's a standard way of chaining attacks in some way, e.g. chain light attacks, target combos, cancels, guaranteed juggles and such. In Smash, it feels like there's virtually zero such guaranteed "chains" per se, attacks send the opponent flying in an unexpected (to me) direction, and juggles are done "manually" in a haphazard and unpredictable fashion. And overall it's more like playing Kirby on crack than Street Fighter.
And not in the least, the whole concept of % and getting kicked out of stage is also nothing like 2D. The whole thing with edge guarding, that "big rising dash" move and so on, again you never QUITE know when someone's dead.

>>11051553
>It's a rushed and buggy PoS
Name one Smash that never struggled with "development time" or rushed up
>Brawl's single player content was great too.
Literally one of the worse mode to replay unless you're browsing Youtube.
>The only Smash games I like are 64 and Ultimate.
Either a modding zoomer or poser. You can only ever like Ultimate/the newest game if you hate any other game that came before it.

>>11049337
>not polluted with jarring characters and it feels nice
This kek.
Even with it's most controversial choices, it's better than Nintendo selling out to 3rd potties and ridden with ads and personal bias.

>>11049047
Melee > 3DS >>>>>>> Brawl

>>11046428
GPT-/vr/ working as intended

>>11046294
>removed kinodashing and l-cancel
>ends up putting it back because directional dodges and smoother movements
>random tripping never came back since
>DACUS patched out day 1 for 3DS
This will never not be funny to me.

>>11045987
>>11046441
>>11046459
>>11046520
Every thread with you shmucks. SSE was a hot piping piece of shit of a mode.
The only "fond" memories you had was getting through all the terrible level design and autoscollers just to watch the cinematics. Even the cutscenes aged like cheese, shit like Olimar being a coward asshole and the most interaction any character had in Subspace was with the Kirby characters.

Reason why Adventure Mode owns because the mode is actually worth the replay. Especially with the Time Attack where you can try to see if you can beat it in different ways.
Also no knockoff Kingdom Hearts OC shit all over the place.

>>11051564
>What changed in Brawl anyway?
Quite literally every nuanced mechanic was gutted. The directional influence mechanic is far less effective. Hitstun was drastically reduced so combos no longer really work. Defensive options across the board were generally way stronger. Air time was increased, so the game felt very "floaty". Ground momentum could no longer translate to air momentum, and vice-versa, so movement felt very stiff. Directional air dodging was removed to prevent wavedashing. And, for no clear reason other than pure spite, every character has a 1% chance to trip and fall over whenever a dash is input.
People still tried to play it competitively, but it was honestly an exercise in futility. It didn't take long for people to go back to Melee. Every Smash iteration after Brawl has sped up the gameplay and increased combo potential, but none have really managed to scratch the same itch that Melee does for people. It's very funny, though, because every time a new game comes out Melee players will try it, say 'this sucks' and go back to Melee. The other crowd will say 'no it's actually great!' and play it up to the very second the next game in the series drops, and then say 'yeah, that old one always sucked. the new one is great though!'. They're constantly in full cope over how sick melee is.
As for comparisons to normal fighting games, yeah it's definitely a totally different paradigm. Because you can survive to hundreds of percents, and kill your opponents when they are very low percent, comebacks are very easy to make. I don't think its something you can say is better/worse than traditional fighters, its just a totally different genre. Lots of people have taken to calling the genre 'platform fighters' to further distinguish them from 'fighting games'.

>>11051586
modders love brawl. it's the one with the craziest modding potential because people cracked that shit super early. kids were putting SD cards wiis all the way back in 2010. people meme that the brawl's stage builder was one of the best video game launchers of all time.

>>11051689
As for combos being difficult and unpredictable, yeah that's kind of part of the game. You have to learn what the different characters are capable of, how they move, and what they try to do to you when you're in a combo. The knowledge gap is very large, but Melee has a small enough roster (and the character distribution is heavily weighted towards the 8 top tiers), so it's not too difficult to get a handle on it.

>>11051689
Interesting.
Actually ironic personal anecdote: I used to be completely oblivious to Smash, but I owned DS with a flashcart, so I played Jump Ultimate Starts, basically "platform fighter" with Shonen Jump characters. Then I learned about Smash and thought: "so that's where they took everything from!". The irony was… They didn't. The game had a basic chaining / combo system, actual "health" bar, and the whole "more % = more knockback" mechanic wasn't even a thing. So even if you call it "platform fighters", it's still kind of unique.
So I literally booted Melee expecting to be able to combo, say, B into up+B, and more or less standard 2D fighter knockback mechanic. And it turned out I was fucked.

>>11051701
Most other platform fighters tend to take smash's approach with % based health while trying to put a spin of their own on it. Any time one tries to be a melee clone, it tends to flop hard because melee players will just play melee.

>>11051638
Sounds like Super Smash Bros was only accidentally good once

>>11046059
Sakurai just wanted a fun party game. It disgusted him that sweaty nerds tried to make the game competitive

>>11052572
First and second games were great for their gameplay. Second through fourth games were great for their extras (well, maybe not the fourth ones). Fifth game is practically a hack (by somewhat of a hack).

>>11052572
The first one is fine casually. Competitive smash 64 is degen as hell though. Brawl is also fine casually, but feels too stifled by the changes made from melee. 4 is actually just ass, and Ult is fine for what it is. It's the most competitive smash since melee, but the scene is much bigger than melee's making it easier to find people to play with locally.

>>11051638
Olimar is a coward asshole however

I always liked how the sound engine is compared to other Gamecube games (baring Kirby's Air ride), same goes for SSB and the N64
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56pDEpxDis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX2de4rFxRI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rK0t4tScxc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgZypXIQGLs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4Az-fpc2W4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU44YTtGCJM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atr6QSNLePw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5p5qGFJOsQ

>>11045939
I grew up with Melee casually.
>The aesthetic, combining that dark early-2000s vibe and the "better than 64 but still unpolished" 3D designs, gives it a bit of a surreal vibe.
>Lots of modes
>Good stage variety, had simple stuff like Green Greens and Jungle Japes, to stuff like Mute City, Corneria,
>Movement's speedy; You don't need to know how to wavedash or whatever to recognize how fun it is to move in this game
>Adventure Mode, while not fully platforming-based, has stages based on different games (Super Mario Bros, Zelda 2, Metroid, etc). Brawl's world was too generic due to the realism meme.
>Events were better, even having a few unique ones like the Trophy Smash events.
>Race to the Finish
>Every character had a Break the Targets
And what >>11052749 said regarding the sound engine.

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>>11045939
yes i've been playing this game for 23 stupid years. once you get past all of the insanely high barriers to entry and crazy knowledge checks there is no other gaming experience that remotely compares to playing intense melee. this is why people are still insane about this game. it's insanity and am insane.

>>11045939
No because the controls are horrible to the point not even pros can play melee at a consistently perfect level. It always ends up sloppy unless you practice for hours a day every day for weeks on end.

A game where you can lose your skill from not practicing is a poorly designed game. I prefer Brawl for being way easier to play thanks to smoother game-feel and hand-friendly controller settings.

>>11054871
>Brawl
>smooth game-feel

Sorry, but you can only pick one

>>11045939
yes, brawl was so fucking gay, gayest music, extra long drawn out boring story mode. the only cool thing about brawl was samus's smash ball move.
melee is the best smash.
melee > smash 64 > brawl > what ever the fuck else they put out if they did

>>11055032
>gayest music
stopped reading

anyone who claims to hate the brawl theme, you know they're a troll, schizo, or both

I haven't had a good smash in over 5 years

>>11055097
you are a gigantic faggot if you thought brawls music was anything but homosexual

>>11051520
>This is also what turns Melee players off of most fighting games
yeah it's not the motion inputs they constantly bitch about or anything

>>11051604
l-canceling is fucking stupid because there's literally never a situation where you wouldn't want to do it
it's just a dumb bug that provides no depth, no interesting play, just a mandatory chore you have to do if you want to play at a high level

>>11055117
>i suck at melee the post

>>11055161
>I confuse being autistic with being good the post

>>11046428
You and your "friends" probably gobbled each others dicks while cosplaying as Marth, Roy, and LInk.

>>11055181
this was your post? >>11055117
then yes you are a retard, kill your self

>>11055205
if you legitimately think l-canceling is a worthwhile mechanic you are retarded.

>>11055224
you just suck at melee, its ok bro theres no shame in it. you can just stick to level 4 bots

>>11055229
nigger I'd rape you in melee. I'd make you my bitch so hard you'd contemplate suicide.
l-canceling is still a dogshit "mechanic".

>>11055248
ight wya? i still got my cube and my copy of the game well meet up and settle this like real men

>>11055254
stay where you are. I'll find you.

>>11055278
nigga how you findin me?

>>11055032
>>11055097
I remember when they announced Brawl and saw the trailer. God I was hyped and save money for a Wii.
It was a shame it was a bit of a disappointment when it was eventually released.

Melee > SSB > Brawl > 3DS/Wii (probably, I still have to try it) > Ultimate

>>11051638
this
SSE was fucking shit in terms of gameplay. It was designed like a Kirby game and as such, was a very basic platformer with very basic enemies/combat
people remember it for the story/cutscenes, not the actual gameplay

>>11055117
>it's just a dumb bug
it's not a bug though, it was intentionally added in 64 and even explicitly mentioned on the website, and the mechanic was carried over into melee

>Do you think this is the best smash?
Yup
>Explain why
One of the best sequels ever when you compare how much of massive jump it was from 64

So much content that to this very day is still pretty damn good

Amazing soundtrack and the last soundtrack where the music actually fits it's context

Game feel is amazing. Still the only Smash game where characters are remotely fun to control and have momentum. I never knew how to wavedash or do any other exploits but every other Smash game afterwards feels extremely awkward to control even from a casual like me, the characters just don't move right

Melee's only downside is the clone filled roster. Aside from that? Still a damn fine game in almost every aspect. It's insane this game was made in less than a year near launch.

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>>11055117
>l-canceling is fucking stupid because there's literally never a situation where you wouldn't want to do it
Correct, I agree the mechanic needs a better risk vs reward-
>it's just a dumb bug
Jesus fucking christ, how is it in the year 2024 that people still believe L-canceling was some sort a bug, despite the fact that it's mechanic was literally mentioned on Smash's official website under advanced techniques?

http://web.archive.org/web/19991117180837/http://smashbros.com/moves_advattacklanding.html

Gotta be bait, if so you got me.

>>11055572
>Still the only Smash game where characters are remotely fun to control
they're fun in brawl

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PM/P+>BrawlMinus=Melee>smash64=brawl>>ultimate>>>>>>sm4sh
Melee is the best unmodded game, and brawl modded to be like melee is even better.

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Also Sakurai mentioned L-Canceling during a Q&A on the Smash Bros Melee japanese website

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/syukeiken/return532.html

>>11045939
Never really got into smash, i thought the first was cool for the novelty of the idea though, enjoyed the graphics too. My kid likee brawl.

I have only ever played the Nintendo 64 game, so I think that one was the best.

>>11055335
The 3DS/WiiU version is hot ass. It so slow, competitive only plays 2 stocks, and the rage mechanic was frustrating to deal with. DK's at 130%? Have fun getting ding donged off the top at 20%!

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>>11055591

Melee was a beautiful accident. Its speed, precision, subtlties, and depth are unmatched by any other game ive ever played. It allows for endless amounts of possibilities and creativity. Even though melee is so old people are still doing new things, and its fan base is so dedicated because it is unlike any other game. If you havent played melee you should really spend a lot of time with it before you try to make any judgements about it. A lot of the hate melee gets is because someone will play the game once then say its too hard and quit. Their is so much to learn about the game. Even long time veterans are still learning and improving today. So if you are going to give melee a shot i would spend a lot of time in the game.

>>11056995
How would you rank em then?

>>11045939
love the aesthetic and i like the single player content in this game more than subspace. i don't give a flying fuck about competitive play but its cool people can love the game i like for completely different reasons. brawlfags are here so i can mention brawl sucks, get mad.

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>>11049053
I seriously don’t understand how quarter circles filter so many smashfags. Just move the stick in a fucking circle???????

>>11057092
People that shit on Melee aren't randoms. They're people that haven't played it since they were kids having fun as Kirby and playing all the stages with items on thinking that anyone enjoying the game from their past in a different way is somehow an attack on them. Melee isn't big enough for normies to have opinions on anymore either, even shitposters get it wrong by throwing around Ultimate memes like grooming kids and bad BO. I don't think I've ever met anyone that dislikes Melee because it's "too hard"

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>>11057143
rare unfathomably based /vr/ post

>>11057149
>Ultimate memes like grooming kids and bad BO.
Are you seriously trying to pretend like meleefags aren’t just as smelly (or more smelly than) ultimate fags

>>11057159
I don't know or care if they do, but the memes came from an Ultimate tournament where there were public announcements that people need to shower and wear deodorant.

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>>11057162
It’s not just one instance that sparked the meme

>>11057168
Alright man

>>11057138
Melee > 64 > Ultimate > Brawl >>>>>> 4

Brawl would be better if it didn't have so much jank like grab strings, grab release strings, tripping, and meta knight in his current iteration. Ult can be fun casually, and it's easier to find people willing to play it. Everything else is self explanatory.

1. Hitstun is important. Melee had perfect amount.
2. Buffering is shit. Melee had no input buffer.
3. Last time Satoshi actually tried hard. This game broke him if you read about it's development.

The fact people don't get melee just makes me feel bad for how dumb the human race is. People who like brawl should be genocided to improve the human race.