The remake of Riven comes out tomorrow. The demo is out now and it appears they have changed a lot of puzzles and rearranged places, which so far I think is awesome.The big issue for me and probably a lot of people is that the 3D model characters that replaced the FMV actors look kind of cartoony and kind of take you out of the immersion a bit, which was one of the strongest points of the original. Also, the environment looks great at times but awful at other times (a lattice doorway, some plants).Anyway, now that I know what's subpar about it, I am looking forward to seeing what they did with the rest of the game, and seeing all the changes they made, hopefully they don't suck but it's good in the demo.
>>11046109Also I just grabbed this image from google image search without realizing there's a streamer thumbnail thing in the corner, sorry my bad.
Your description of the remake is nothing but demerits, and then you conclude that you want to play it. Seems to offer nothing of value that improves on the original and asks me to buy again something I bought decades ago, which however much it is normalized by advertisers is not something anyone should ever accept.
>>11046125Changed puzzles and solutions are a plus in puzzle game remakes, anon.The FMVs being replaced seems like the only real downside, which admittedly is a major one.
>>11046109Trash franchise
>>11046567Retard.
>>11046109Does it retain the soul of the original?
>>11046116Pretty sure that's a presentation by one of the developers, not a streamerAnyway I don't really click with this style of puzzle game but it does look gorgeous. I'll probably give it a go.
I played Myst as a kid but never beat it. What's the best way to play it now? Should I track down an original iso or should I play one of the remasters?
>>11047729for me personally it's masterpiece edition(the original, not realmyst) or bust, but they're honestly all fine in their own way. just grab whichever one you like the look of off steam or gog or wherever. just don't play the godawful DS ports
>>11047729>>11047932I can second Masterpiece edition. I’m playing through the actual original currently and trying navigating some areas is actually infuriating lol. They made it easier to click your way around in the remasters.Also, if your download doesn’t come with PDFs of the hints that came in the game box, find them online. Playing with them is much better than using any player written guide.Don’t play RealMYST.
>>11047729Myst Masterpiece edition is retro and good. All they did was rerender the backgrounds and made the audio work. Its faithful to the original and still holds up well
>>11047729I'm gonna say go with one of the old pre-rendered point-and-click ones for the surreal, mysterious atmosphere. I think the most recent remake just called Myst had really awful controls somehow, not sure how they fucked it up.For Riven, I'd also have to say go for the original because the FMVs are awesome and immersive, but if you must play the remake only do so if you have a high-end computer that can play on max settings because some of the graphics don't look great in specific places, and even then the 3D modeled characters are not as fun as the original FMV actors. I've only played the demo, though.
Fucking yikesDO.NOT.SUPPORT.REMAKES.EVER.
>>11046109Riven Remake sounds like an incredible waste of time and resources
>>11046109Lmao it's the default windows 10 login background That looks like shit, they should have tracked down the source code or upscale the original prerenders like that one youtube channel did
>>11048709prerenders will always have infinitely superior aesthetic
stunning game.
>started playing regular Riven because the remake is out and I can't run itSo I started with regular Riven>sort of assume the beetle pictures are just lore, get around the revolving stuff and open the door for the court hall that has the two snail statues eating fruit>get power to the machine that's on top of the hatch but can't find the password, nor do I know what to do with the weird chair>everyone in the villages hate me, got spooked by one person peeking from the knocking, but nothing, just admired their giant snail statue on my lonesome>actually feel like I got progress in the water shore with the pressurized room, everything leads up to me sending a single uneaten bird pellet down an elevator to who knows where (left open, because I wasn't sure if it could eat it later)>get back to the village and the submarine I sort of just tossed into the tracks is working somehow>get soft-locked if I try to go out a certain way, but basically any other route only just lets me peek my head>really don't want a walkthrough but want vague hints and general advice from anonsI feel stupid and confused, I played with the village's urinal+globe set and called it a day for today, think the plesiosaurs were the highlight so far.
>>11051561Nice, glad you seem to be enjoying it.
>>11051561Seems like you're doing alright so far btw.
>>11051561It's a game that took people many months to finish. Take your time. Be attentive of the world.
>>11052908>>11052964I do not feel like I've progressed much, Myst was a cakewalk compared to this pretty maze. I was excited to see this new world, but it's a bit of a lonely one, even the plesiosaurs run away from me.>>11053102>attentiveShould I be writing things down? I imagine the>spin the sphere to see a neat little symbolbits are just markers to tell you the area, perhaps corresponding to a map you see later, instead of something that you can toggle permanently.>still can't do anything on that weird cage throne>filling up the antisocial village's zen garden with water does nothingi was showing a friend, so we didn't really do ten pages of reading, maybe the book I've been given would provide hints. Is this like a regular point-and-click where I should be trying to grab everything not bolted to the wall? I assumed it wasn't, since I couldn't pick up any knives or axes.
>>11046109This better come with 10 isos that you need to mount otherwise its not as the developers intended
>>11053153No, the original only has the trap book as an item. The best hint I can give is to understand the relationship between what you see and hear in the world. The symbols are key. You can ignore the throne for now.
>>11053260I've heard some beetles zipzooming around, I think I heard a scream once or twice, wondered if sounds were ambient or relevant, prayed deeply to God that it was just ambient noise>the symbols are keyIt's time to take notes I suppose.>submarine that I can't leave>village that hates me>manhole with a password>bird/rabbit food elevatorMaybe the revolving door thing is key? With the beetle lore notes? There must be a reason for those multiple peepholes through the wall. Not sure if I'm still locked out of a potential exit, it looks like a bridge but I don't know how else I can arrive at that place.>inb4 I have to pull the beetles in the right order of soundBut thank you, I'll try to keep my ears open.
>>11053285Anon, keep at it and don't give up. As tempting as it is to look at a guide, don't do it.I spent hours and hours wandering around trying to figure shit out.I had pages and pages of notes, and would try any idea that popped into my head when solving some of the puzzles.I spent many days at work having eureka moments and rushing home to test my theory only to find it was a dud.Despite all the setbacks, I managed to beat Riven.I'm a brainlet, and if I can do it, you can do it.Banging your head against the wall is part of the game. Eventually things will make sense.As the other anons are saying; eyes and ears open.
>>11053306Thank you, this is encouraging. I've made a tiny bit of progress but hit yet another wall.Picrel makes bird noises and I got a new door for the revolving beetleroom thing, missed a button on the wall, but th-that door doesn't seem to open. The trapdoor machine still has a peephole that seems to aim downwards, since it's pitch-black if it's right up against the cover. What a useless contraption, I was hoping it was a suction cup to force the door open.The sounds are helpful to indicate power sources/something being energized, which helped me with that steam/water hell with the elevator, but I'm pretty sure I'm done there until I want something pulverized from the minecart into powder.The only thing I saw a peek of is "you have to guide the submarine to the place that lowers ladders" and that I should probably map the system, which is irrelevant because there's only three exit points, none of which looks anything like that, one of which (if I take the left turn instead of going right and ending up at the start) prevents me from leaving or operating the submarine and I assume I'm just stuck there. I understand there's snail, star, and dagger imagery but nothing that seems to correspond to a 5-button password. Are the beetle and plesiosaur bits important? There's nothing on the beach and the beetles aren't guiding me anywhere. Other than what feels like a bug in the submarine that wasn't present initially, I feel like I'm missing something so simple yet so important.
>>11053306>>11053332NEVER MIND I'M RETARDEDThe submarine had a turny-lever that blended in into the console
>>11046109Why don't they just make a new myst game instead of remaking stuff. I've played Riven many times, seeing it in full 3D like this might be interesting but its the same game.Make a new myst game, I'll buy it. Just because Atrus is too old doesn't mean you can't have new games in the series, the only real thing that is required is adventuring through strange landscapes called ages and figuring out puzzles.There other new games like Firmament and Ob- whatever its called are ok but they don't have the same magic as the Myst games do.
>>11047401>I don't really click with this style of puzzle gameActually, that's all you do in this kind of shitty puzzle game.
>>11053306>>11053332>>11053336Mapped out the sub system, I don't know what that tower is but I've now learned what numbers are and mapped those out also, so I guess I know what the two spheres say also. Also speculation about Gehn and some imagery:>wind-up sermon of an old guy hologram in a birdcage>what looks like a rather impressive royal room with a similar cage motif earlier on>Gehn's trapped in a literal gay baby jail cage for gay babies but is still worshipped as a god, and this is incorporated into the imageryRevisited the beetle images, which don't confirm or deny my theory, but further notion of progression eludes me once again. I assume I don't have to map out an entire alphabet, despite seeing text now and then, since non-anglophones would be fucked. Maybe this is good enough progress for one day, I took down two notes. No new mysteries apart from the closed door, mystery hatch, and bird food elevator. It sure feels like I was given all the tools for a future puzzle, just not one I've encountered yet.
>turns out you should regularly be closing doors>the reason the Riven folk despise me so is because I've been running around their home acting as if I were raised in a barn
>>11054047>got both doors and related bridges open for the golden sphere>mapped out symbols for most of the colours and know the identity of the statue animal>got jumpscared by a child and a panicked bookmaker, saw some lady carry something around via security cam>know what a frog sounds like (the frog noise sphere indicates a rebel village and beetle noises mean loyalists?)>fiddled with the topography bullshit and wrote descriptions of each island down, hopefully not having to match each map with its corresponding island>can't do anything with the 98nd book under Gehn's workshop or the one in the topography island>nothing to do for the village's bungee jumping areaI guess this is another day's worth of play. I really hope the goal isn't "solve each island and get power to the sphere, noted by the sound of power near the tube and your knowledge of the topography of each island, you have to solve all the islands to get enough steam to enter either of the 98nd books"
>>11054128>towerNever mind, found the forest book and solved the tower..
>>1105412898nd book.Hah, you still can't read the numbers correctly.
>>11054128>nothing to do for the village's bungee jumping area>bungee jumpingRemember the game that helped you learn the numbers?
Did the animal puzzle mostly by myself, had to get a hint that there was a fifth one, but it should have been obvious with Gehn noting that they're obsessed with fives and that I could rotate the second viewfinder in the whale room. Solving this puzzle nearly on my own isn't as satisfying as getting a shitton of exploration done from some vague hint like "hey try closing doors">>11054186But but... yeah, I was thrown off by 2nd, but I'm sure I got the numbers right, his initial book is 98 (which.. I've found three of?) and his later book is I think 99? I should just have save states for quickly revisiting different areas, rather than worry about progress>>11054190Hangman... I simply didn't think to (accidentally) turn the knob in the other direction for the forest elevator, despite knowing that there was a second floor with a rotating orb. I'm still not sure whether to be impressed or upset at the puzzle, or just not spending a week revisiting those marble locations again and again. Had to look up a picture of the frog because I couldn't catch one again, I was probably supposed to take a picture of the symbols where the orbs stopped as well. At least I'm at the cover art place now.
>>11054205>But but... yeah, I was thrown off by 2nd, but I'm sure I got the numbers right, his initial book is 98 (which.. I've found three of?) and his later book is I think 99? I should just have save states for quickly revisiting different areas, rather than worry about progressWhat makes you think the number is 98? Have you had any reason to belive the D'ni use base 10?
>touched the prison book which was kindly given back to me>roll credits, unskippableThanks guys, I'm moving onto the sequel!>>11054212It was a 9 and an 8 I think, from my notes. But fuck, I realize I had to intuit that a 3 o'clock symbol meant 20, so it's obviously not going to be "nine and eight means ninety eight", I have no idea what the number could mean now.Is base 5 even a system- no wait, that's the Rivenites and not D'ni. I have no idea. I'm still so lost. But thankfully, aside from the existence of a fire marble? puzzle and the fact that I still have to return to topography hell I'm pretty blind. Not believing in myself for the animal puzzle was regrettable, so I'm only going to rely on vague hints from anons now, no more general internet.
>the brave rebels just send you right back with Catherine's urgent note and regular notesPlease no I wanted to meet some friends, I have absolutely no idea what work even remains for me to do.>spent hours and it's almost 10amI suppose hitting another roadblock means it's not a bad time to sleep...
>>11054240Who is the prison book for?
>>11054248It's for Gehn, who's I think in his Nine-Nine-th world somewhere, whereas I've found some of his Nine-Eight-nd books >workshop, topography, forest>all of them uninteractableI've opened the fissure telescope hatch and contentedly left it open and unattended, but aside from the topography place seeming completely useless, I don't know what I'm missing.
>>11054262Explore more then.
>>11054286Yessir... I swear I've exhausted all islands, but I almost missed that one wooden sphere in the forest, so maybe there's other side paths I've overlooked along the way.
>>11054292I do not think you've found all places on Temple Island yet, but even if you have it wouldn't hurt to have another look.
>>11054296Temple Island being the one with the fancy Cage Hall, revolving beetle chamber, and the gold dome? I think I've exhausted everything but alright, I trust you anon. And that's where the telescope is anyway, so I'll comb it over very carefully when I wake up later today.
>>11054301Where have you found the book labled "98"?
>>11054315Under Gehn's workshop, near where you catch the frog. He said he'd link bits of Riven to his 98 home base, so I thought there'd be more puzzles in different parts of his home.Also some harpoon looking tool was missing from his workshop (the two benches, two doors, furnace with a burnt book) when I revisited, hopefully that's nothing to worry about...
>>11054326>Under Gehn's workshop, near where you catch the frog.Are there other places like this? Are they connected? Both literally and figuratively? Good night.>Also some harpoon looking tool was missing from his workshop (the two benches, two doors, furnace with a burnt book) when I revisited, hopefully that's nothing to worry about...sweating...
>>11054330>Are there other places like this? Are they connected?The forest/jungle has a dome, the tram from... somewhere, leads to an elevator to the one-way (why is it one-way if there's a button that summons the tram) fish mouth.The pointless and stupid and moronic topography lab has a book dome outside it, on that island, a door next to the tram leads to a place I can't remember...>Good night.Thank you again, sleep tight!>sweating...It should be fine... I'm sure it just noclipped through the desk and floor. Or maybe the frog took it! We never saw where exactly it hopped off to. That must have been it, the frog stole it to give to the Moitey rebels.
I bought the remake and managed to finish the game after...Steam says nine hours. The puzzles felt a lot easier this time, though I'm not sure how much of that is because of the new designs or because I'm older now.I'd say the island feels smaller then I remember it being, but that also means less time running around.I remember there being two puzzles, one with a little frog and one in the golden dome that gave me so much trouble as a kid. Those are no longer there. I do miss them but I like how the changes make the puzzles feel more logical. I did end up getting stuck...three times. Twice for getting lost and once on a puzzle.Stupidly, I didn't realize that with the first dome that there was already a second one unlocked. I left the way I came and didn't realize I could visit the prison island until I was 80% through the game.Also, I ended up walking past the jungle totem several times. There's even that giant dagger in the ground, but whenever I'd notice it I'd look up at it, completely missing the path leading down.The only puzzle I struggled with was the animal ring solution. For some reason I ended up looking for real animals near the totem. Like there frog traps in the cave, a gold beetle near the clear cut area etc. I ended up having to look up the answer to that one because I was looking at it completely wrong.I had a lot of fun though. It was nice to see that I still remembered my D'ni numerals. Whatever rough edges the game has (it did crash once during my entire playthrough) don't really matter compared to how good the whole experience was. More remakes need to be of this quality. I'd love to revisit Spire and walk around freely in it.
Why did they ruin the intro bro's, this remake could have been perfect
>>11046109>The big issue for me and probably a lot of people is that the 3D model characters that replaced the FMV actors look kind of cartoonycorrect, and i probably won't bother playing it because of that.it's absolutely possible to combine 3D and digitized actors, that 7th Guest VR remake did it. i guess whoever developed this didn't have the time or money.
Rare remake that actually proves its worth. Shame about the character models though. John Keston's performance was integral.
>>11048709literally soul vs soulless
>>11048709Having played it, the temple actually looks pretty great.You can actually walk around it, and the light inside is very different from the bright sunlight outside.The one thing I will point out is that in the remake the room feels smaller than I thought it was.
Playing the game really showed me how different times have gotten. Not just in how fast I finished the game, but also how different the process was.When I was a kid I'd have scribbles and notes in front of me, now the process was done with notepad and screenshots.The in-game screenshot & note function seems to encourage that too, but I liked having my screenshots on my second monitor.I will say that when I needed to do some backtracking I took some physical notes and a found the process instantly more enjoyable. There's just something about actually putting pen to paper.
>>11056924Physical notes are something tangible for you to hold on to. In a lot of ways it means that you were actually there instead of something that idly passes by. I still look at a lot of the old maps I drew up as a kid. Random things that don't make sense to anyone else but the writer. I don't really blame them for the accessibility though. The way we process creative work is so different these days. Much more disposable.
I'd love to look over the shoulder of someone playing this game for the first time.
>>11046125>Seems to offer nothing of value that improves on the originalWell there's the fact that the entire game is in a real-time first person view.
>>11057583I'm playing through the original for the first time now and I'm enjoying it but it's kicking my ass. I beat Myst as a kid with minimum spoilers, I needed help on a couple puzzles and it took me forever but I eventually did it. Then when I tried to play Riven, I spent what felt like hours making zero progress and gave up out of frustration.Now twenty-plus years later I'm STILL feeling totally lost. There are points where the game makes me laugh out loud because I feel like I've figured something out but it just results in more confusion. I found a lake with a bunch of pipes leading to a boiler with valves and levers to fiddle with. Puzzled out how to work them, followed the tunnel and sent power to a walkway built into a cave, all culminating in a room with a device that seems to be specially built to catch frogs. And that's it. I just keep catching frogs and watching them hop away. Of course I KNOW there's something I'm missing and it's going to feel amazing when I figure it out.
As for Myst, I preferred the original version in almost every way, but one thing I'll say for the remake is that being able to play in VR and feel like I'm in this other world was really neat. I spent so much time playing Myst as a kid that it was actually emotionally affecting in places. That's why I want to play the original Riven first before I try the remake.
>>11057660Listen to what the animals you encounter sound like. Then take note whenever you hear this specific sound again and what its associated with. I dont think the frog trap itself has no purpose other than to listen to the frog's sound.
>>11048709I'll support what I like thanks.
>play with the Original Videos option in the Myst remake>see the classic FMVs with the cheesy acting>get to the end of the game and it flips back to CG Atrusgod what the fuck were they thinking, the 3D characters are so terrible
>>11056924I just finished the game today (totally awesome, BTW) and I used a pen and paper to work some things out. The screenshots are still nice though, reduces the number of things to transcribe.
Perfect remake.
>>11058749it's a lot more streamlined.
Pig disgusting new fanfiction area where you're basically in outer space. This is literal garbage
>>11060160yeah, it's really not the same game, it's not just a graphics overhaul, they streamlined A LOT and made shit up. Plus the human models look disgusting
>>11058749nice bait
Finished it. Great remake. Only bad thing I can say is the character models(Ghen looks the best of them all). >>11060160You probably never played Myst then. The "outer space" is in the intro of the original Myst(literally the same crack you escape Riven at that) and is the reason why the player character even got the Myst book.
The other day I was wondering why no one makes 'Myst,' threads on /vr/. I had no clue there were other related games. I played Myst when I was first exposed to PC gaming, when I was like 7 or something. I remember I could not figure out how to start programs on our Windows 2k family computer, so I would have to wait for my dad to come back from work to help me. Never completed the game, got stuck in the subway or whatever that was. I'm gonna download Myst now and see if I can beat it.
>>11061267Good luck! Let us know how it goes.
i played the original for the first time recently and was surprised how difficult it was. hard to understand why people call them non-games when the entire world is this malleable puzzle that you can interact with. more games could stand to learn from its delivery method where everything is integrated. really cool.
What set the Myst games apart from other puzzle adventures of the time was how well integrated the puzzles were in the world.It wasn't a story that got interrupted by puzzles; they were there for a reason and solving the puzzle would actually teach you a little bit more about the world and what was happening.Even just basic stuff. Like finding the big sphere thing in the temple, then the smaller one with a control chair, and then finally the one in the classroom.And then you put all three together in your head and bam, you just figured out more about what was going on.The later games went even harder into the 'you have to figure out the story to solve this puzzle' aspect, but Riven was the first that did it at that level.
terrible, they removed and added puzzles. not a straight remake, very disengenuous. I hate it
>>11061429Thank you.Installing it was a bit of a puzzle in itself. I pirated a copy of it and planned on using Proton with steam. Of course, I have to install a C++ runtime dll in the wine prefix and I chose the wrong one. Eventually I delete everything and start again, this time with the correct dll. Game launches, looks amazing, but after a few moments I notice all the videos aren't playing. I then attempt to use different proton versions, only to read certain codecs aren't included in it and I need to add a dll with them in the prefix. I do so, now the game crashes with a different error. So I start over again and this time use proton-ge (with the codecs there by default) and install the correct C++ runtime library. Finally works and videos play. So I actually begin to play and pretty quickly get to crestwood. I explored all of it (I think) and find two pages and get back to the island. took way too long to figure out how to power up the rocket and open the door. still, that feeling when you finally get all of the pieces to fall into place for a puzzle you have been working on for awhile is priceless. Funnily enough, I always admired when I was a kid how beautiful the artwork/landscape in the game was, and the one thing I wished was that you could just walk around, like you can in this version.
>>11048709I don't get it
>I don't get it
>>11062216Just you wait for Riven, that game is much better still.
MY GOD THE NUMBERS I GET IT
It didn't need a remake. The static images from the originals are not that antiquated
Just finished the remake. It'd give it 8.5/10, the scenery is beautiful and the flow of the game feels indeed more streamlined.The 3D models for the characters are a -huge- downgrade though and totally pull you out of the experience, something the original game did not. The masterpiece which was the orignal intro is also botched in this version by cutting it up and removing all the subtle buildup.Also some areas were very quiet compared to the orignal, the forest for example, feels like they didn't include all the original ambient sounds. Most of the sound design is still great though.I'm not going to comment on the puzzles since I did play the orignal before. The final chapter could have used a few more puzzles after you finish the fire marble one. (the prison door and star fissure telescope are basically given to you for free so those didn't feel as any accomplishment)All in all still a very enjoyable remake of a timless classic.
>>11062776Are you playing with animals?
>>11062964True, but I'm still glad it got one, and it's good.
>>11064001I don't get why they changed the intro. It had a lot of tension with the whole "if I don't keep writing we're all doomed" vibe. The remake is decent overall though, just tonally awry in a couple spots.
>>11056924>>11057224Yeah, it really makes it more like a place you've really visited. Also, being able to look at where you are in the game, but having your notes somewhere else, allows you to see things together in a different way. It has helped me tremendously. Been playing Riven on and off since February. I also started cutting out my notes, trying to separate everything, and then putting them all together on my desk to look at at the same time. Then started moving things around, trying to group things together, seeing if maybe there are connections that I have missed, or if there are missing links to any theory I'd come up with. Don't think I'd have solved the animal circle without this. Felt pretty cool, too, like some real detective work. Part of the fun of the game is coming up with theories and testing them out. Uncharacteristically nice thread, haven't been on /vr/ for a week, keep it up guys.
Riven is too highbrow. It keeps the zoomers away.
>>11060160>>11060279>>11061239The "outer space" is one of the biggest themes in the original Riven if you bother to read stuff or complete the game.Also I guess Cyan doesn't have the tech know how to make 3d people work ingame. The 2020 Myst remake was very weak in that regard too. But oh well the games are great.
So I am back after having completed Myst. Very glad to have finally completed the game, surprisingly I got a lot farther when I was a little kid than I remembered. As I would explore an age, I would see things that sparked an old memory. Either way, a lot of fun. I am taking a break before I play Riven. Should I play the OG game first? Are classic FMV movies possible like in the myst remake in the riven remake?I'm conflicted because the myst remake looked great on my setup, but I had already completed most of the original game when I was young.
>>11067261Try out the OG first.
>>11067261>>11068634I agree, I'm playing through the original for the first time and it holds up
>>11068634>>11068939thanks, I was leaning towards the original as I really liked the pre-rendered backgrounds and FMV clips of the OG Myst.
>>11067261I've been playing OG Riven as well here, it's lots of fun. You can hit your head on the wall with the puzzles and then appreciate what the remake did different. Also don't check any walkthroughs and minimize getting hints, the payoff is much more rewarding.>>11054330Haven't gotten back into it yet...
>>11068990I booted the original Riven yesterday to compare a few scenes after finishing the remake and I ended up finishing the entire game in just 2 hours... which is crazy because I spent entire days on this game as a kid because I was too retarded to figure the animal puzzle out by myself and the walkthrough I was using had the wrong answer written. Maybe for the better because I sure as hell would never had figured out the fire marble puzzle.Now I scribbled down my observations on Survey island and solved it on my first attempt even though they try to bamboozle you with the yellow marble.
>>11069001>fire marbleI've heard the name but I haven't even seen this yet. I know it's at or related to Survey Island but I've been able to do fuck-all there other than open the dome for the book. Maybe it's the 72nd book if I'm supposed to do something with 9 and 8 to get a -nd number.
