wtf happened to sega after the genesis? did they just get lucky?
>>11414665They continued making bleeding edge games with the latest technology in the arcades, pioneering new designs and mechanics in homes and out of them, and unfortunately the home market, where they hurt the most, was interested in slow and awkward nintendo games and RPGs.
>>11414665Mismanagement, 32X(which led to the Saturn failing), the Saturn costing around $399, the Dreamcast costing $199 instead of $250, piracy killing the Dreamcast and the PS2 eclipsing the Dreamcast.
>>11414674Piracy never killed any system because pirates were never going to buy the games to begin with
>>11414665Arcade game developer when arcade games fell out of favor
>>11414671Any Mario game faster and more entertaining than Shitmue.
>>11414675Untrue
>>11414675Piracy killed the Dreamcast. Without those games selling, Sega is no longer making money.
>>11414665Sega of Japan sacrificed everything in order to try to beat Sony in Japan. It cost Sega of Japan all their foreign markets to do it, and drove off American and European gamers. Sega succeeded in Japan....for about 6 months.Then the PS1 smashed the Sega Saturn with Mega blockbuster hits like Tekken and Final Fantasy.
>>11414685Pirates weren't going to buy them in the first place
>>11414665Mega Drive is the embodiment of a fluke. A great console unfortunately made by a company started by a literal jew
>>11414685>9 per console in less than 2 years
>>11414685No one owned the Dreamcast. GDRom piracy was irrelevant
>>11414665They made more good games for us to enjoy.But nothing lasts forever.
>>11414665https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQPFKMx21Sk
>>11414735breaking even wasn't enough. Each Dreamcast owner needed to buy 10 games for Sega to turn a profit. Sega selling at such a huge loss hurt them.
>>11414720Hence why piracy killed the Dreamcast.>>11414735That's a very low number for a pirated console. The average amount of games owned per console tends to be 50 and upwards. But piracy knocked it down to about 9. A Dreamcast owner could have owned 41 other games, oh well.>>11414794False. There was about 10 million Dreamcast owners before it even died. Sonic Adventure was it's best selling game.
>>1141489110mil units ain’t shit after having 3 back to back failures. Saturn and Dreamcast failed to the point that combined they were still outsold by the N64 which in itself was a massive failure
>>11414713It outsold playstation in Japan for 1995-1996 and then was overthrown when FF7 was released, but keep spreading your headcannon if it helps you cope.
>>11414665Their greatest and most baffling mistake that should have ended them was not making new entries to their successful franchises such as Streets of Rage, Golden Axe (wtf Revenge of Deathadder was never ported we will never know) Shinobi being one notable exception. The only reason they survived is because the still had quality software developers and the IP for a lot of stuff.
>>11414934This post is pure cope
>>11414665Saturn was pretty decent actually. Its just that the PS1 was better because it was cheaper at release and it had way more support. So because Sega dropped the ball and also pissed off retailers with the earlier then planned release the console struggled. The Dreamcast was without a doubt better but the problem is by then it was too late. They lost way too much money. IIRC Dreamcast was doing good in sales until the PS2's release and Shenmue eating up too much money.So no they didn't get lucky or at least not completely. They were pretty good outside of the Genesis.
>>11414934That's exactly what he said. Why are you repeating what he said?
>>11415001>Saturn was pretty decent actuallyOverly complicated and had weak hardware. Both the Sega of America and Sega of Europe divisions tried to convince the head office to use a different design and stronger chips. Japan said no and shut them out the design process.
>>11414665Google "Sega FY 1997 Brand Review" and you'll learn everything you need to know about why Sega failed as a hardware manufacturer.TL;DR:Tens to Hundreds of Thousands of Genesis, Game Gear, Nomad, 32X in warehouse with few to no orders>Sonic & Knuckles – 250,000 copies in warehouse & Zero Orders>Game Gear Games – 941,000 in warehouse & 7,000 Orders>32X & 32X Bundles – 400,000+ in warehouse & Zero Orders>Saturn – 25,000 in warehouse & 1,000 orders>Saturn Peripherals – 250,000 in warehouse & 500 orders>Saturn Games – 187,000 in warehouse & 70,000 orders32X Overstock Being Considered for Scrap ValueMassive Amounts of SELL-IN stock coming back from retailers as unsold merchandiseSaturn games sales were dismal in first fiscal year ’96 (1995-96)>Daytona USA – with 80,000 copies sold is best selling game on Saturn>Sega Rally – Rushed incomplete for US holiday season & only 42,000 copies sold>Sony's NFL Gameday sells almost 200,000 copies, beating every game on SaturnSaturn at $399 sells $60,000 before PS1 is released. PS1 sells $130,728 in September alone.>2 Price drops in 1995 – $349 in Oct & $299 in Nov (matched with PS1)>1995 Grand Sales: Saturn – 237,000 / PS1 – 645,000Saturn struggles to find the success with sports titles it had on GenesisNo American Football game released in 1995 or 1996SoA thinks NiGHTS is for “younger audiences”, then reconsiders when Crash Bandicoot is releasedMystaria shows as Zero Sales with is a bad metric for RPG games in the westSoA was aware of & acknowledges their communication issues with SoJSoA looks to reposition Saturn as a technically superior / high tech internet applianceSEGA waited until 1997 to deploy 4,000 in-store kiosks in response to Sony’s tens of thousandsThey lost too much money too quickly gambling on shit that didn't sell well at all.
>>11415008Also:>SoJ wanted to release Saturn worldwide in 1994, but SoA did not want to move on from Genesis yet.>SoJ granted SoA a one-year-wait for a Saturn launch while they would market another add-on for the Genesis, the 32X.>Big retailers required Sega to have double inventory in warehouse & buy back all unsold merchandise.>Saturn launches in Japan and it's a hit. US consumers pick up on this and skip the 32X in favor of waiting on the Saturn.>Months go by with 400,000+ 32X units with zero orders. SoA's debt rises to hundreds of millions of dollars.>SoJ orders SoA to release the Saturn to keep them from falling further into the red.>SoA reluctantly decides to spin this a surprise E3 launch.>SoJ learns of SoA's overstocked warehouses with zero orders and massive debt. They order Tom Kalinske to restructure the company.>One year goes by with little-to-no progress to restructure SoA for profitability. SoA asks Tom Kalinske to resign.Basically, Sega of America was ran by mongoloids.
>>11415012>>11415008The Video is stupid because the video creator doesn't understand that companies that have contracts with large retailers in the United States of America are *required* to have additional backup stock of items regardless of whether or not orders are placed. Every single large corporate company does this and has storage warehouses filled with extra stock.I'm honestly shocked and surprised no one here hasn't yet told you these facts. That's how it works in America.
>>11415016What video are you talking about?All of my info came from:https://segaretro.org/images/8/8c/SegaFY1997BrandReview_US.pdfhttps://www.segasaturnshiro.com/2023/07/10/irimajiri-clears-the-air-regarding-soa-saturn/
>>11415016>American companies demand tons of extra stock be made "just in case" It's a better system than the Japanese. Japan always underestimates how much they need, and only make things in batches when there's enough demand.But that leads to constant shortages and lost profit because retailers have to wait for new orders to come in.Nintendo does this shit all the time.
>>11415019You told us to Google "Sega FY 1997 Brand Review" and a video about it is the top result. Your conclusions are very flawed.
>>11415024>i'm retarded and need to watch a youtube video instead of reading a documentnoted
>>11415021>on demand productionIt's also an issue with other items in Japan. The Japanese used to region lock their Bluray and DVDs. Japanese Blurays and DVDs prices are almost 3 times more expensive than in America. For the same exact movie or TV show. This led to huge influx of people just ordering their copy from Western countries and reverse importing them.
>>11415012>>11415008Fuck there are so many things wrong with your post.Every company has to make extra stock if they want to do business with American stores.Nintendo and Sony had to do the same exact thing.They made a ton of extra SNES and Playstation consoles.Sega Saturn was just shit and no one wanted it.
>>11415025>I'm a blind retard that didn't see the top results on Google is a videoNoted
>>11415012>blames SoAInvalid argument since Sega Saturn also failed in Europe. It was a terrible console.
>>11415037Is there an internal Sega of Europe brand review from the Saturn era that I don't know about?
>>11415034>Sega Saturn was just shit and no one wanted it.>Saturn – 25,000 in warehouse & 1,000 ordersNo shit, that's what the post said.
>>11415008The funniest thing about the report was Kalinske saying how when he visited Akihabara the Saturn was crushing the PS1 and wanted to know to translate that success over here, not realizing that place is ronery otaku territory and all the visual novels and dating sims would've bombed had they been brought over here
>>11415037>Sega Saturn also failed in Europe.And still was MORE succesful thatn in north América.
>>11415045>they would then understand why we will win here in the U.S. eventually.This is coming from the same man who allowed the 32X to be created to compete with the Jaguar and 3DO.
>>11415047It sold even less in Europe than in the USA.
>>11415063Tom Kalinske literally said interviews that he was against the 32x. He was against doing any sort of additional hardware release and just wanted to wait for Saturn (even though he wasn't a fan of the console). But he had to follow Japan's orders. They were the head office and had final say.
>>11415065PS1 and N64 also sold less in Europe than the US, what's your point?
>>11415069"Now, I can sit here and tell you today that no matter how great Saturn is, or PlayStation is, or Ultra 64 is, we will outsell them by an enormous amount with 32X -- simply because of the price." - Tom Kalinske
>>11415069I trust Tom because Japan has a long history of refusing to take the blame and admit fault. It's part of their culture to avoid blame. Tom doesn't give AF about any of that.
>>11415072Shame society (Japan) vs guilt society (US)I can see it.
>>11415071Sega 32x probably could have sold more if Japan didn't stupidly announce the new Saturn console right when 32x launched. The timing of Japan was so unbelievably bad that I wouldn't be surprised if it was done intentionally to screw over Kalinske. We do know how much the Japan office hated the American office for selling more Mega Drives in America. Sega management was dysfunctional like that.
>>11415076Kalinske did gloat about how Japan was jealous of his early '90s success with SoA
>>11415072What's funny is I don't think Japanese console makers have ever apologized for their failures.Nintendo will just quietly push their new console ahead of schedule. But stay quiet about current console failures. Just pretend it never happened. Sega of Japan is so delusional that their CEO will give speeches to the public saying that the Dreamcast is the "greatest console ever" ...even though Sega is bankrupt and can't afford to pay their employees salaries.Meanwhile Microsoft will say something like, "Yeah we messed up with the Kinect and Xbox One. But we are learning and moving forward."
>>11415082I've seen this play out in many other Japanese companies and industries. Cars, computer chip manufacturing, hardware, etc. They come up with a good idea. Do well for a while. Get stuck in their ways. Then refuse to adapt. I simply do not understand why the Japanese can't looked inward, and ask themselves what they did wrong and improve for the future. They just lash out when things don't go their way.
>>11415076>Sega 32x probably could have sold more if Japan didn't stupidly announce the new Saturn console right when 32x launchedHowPeople were curious of the PS1 and Nintendo was riding high on their SNES success so anything they would've announced would've been anticipated
>>11414891>The average amount of games owned per console tends to be 50 and upwardsSource?
>>11415037They roughly suffered from the same issue.
>>11414891>That's a very low number for a pirated console. The average amount of games owned per console tends to be 50 and upwards.Total horseshit. Sega consoles top the charts for attach ratios. Dreamcast sold more games per console than super nintendo. But that's probably a result of their failures and games being sold at discounts. I know that's why I had a bunch of DC games.
>>11414674>>11414675It was more the PS2 and Xbox playing DVDs. At the time that was a much nicer gimmick than the Dreamcast being able to browse online.
>>11414665They largely lost all their main 3rd party support to Playstation. The Saturn could not compete. >>11414713Which was a shame since Sega was doing so incredibly well in the US...to the constant anger of the guys at Sega of Japan. They hurt themselves by demanding their company be #1 in Japan and hated all the stupid western baka gaijin that paid all their bills and kept the lights on.
>>11414665USD/JPY exchange rate started to go down around 1994-1996, at the peak of Sega's dominance in North America. This started to significantly reduce the amount of cash Sega Enterprises in Japan was receiving from its western subsidiaries, at the crucial moment when Sega needed as much money as possible to launch the Saturn.
>>11415082Always amazes me how Japan will shoot themselvs in the foot if something is only successful outside of Japan. Who cares if they are making lots of money if it's not Japanese money?
>>11414665Sega was still doing good. They were great up until the point they got bought by Sammy. I think 80s to 2004 was their peak period. They also lost tons of talent like Yu Suzuki and Yuji Naka.Sega had bad management but really great talent. They also had fights between SoJ and SoA which caused all kinds of issues in the long-term. Like with the 32X and Saturn.It was Kalinske that got Sega to beat Nintendo in America for a while. SoJ should have known that America/Europe and Japan are completely different markets. Americans want power and aggression in their games, Kalinske knew that. They want Action and Sports games for example. Japanese want JRPGs and quirky games. I think SoJ tried to take more control of Sega because they got too arrogant and confident because Sega was so successful in the mid-90s, with their Genesis/Mega Drive and Arcade systems.Sega had to move away from the hardware market with the DC because they had no money anymore. They lost so much money with the 32X and Saturn, their Arcade business was also drying up. Sony also beat them at their own game, which was mature games. Sega should have looked better at what Nintendo and Sony were doing in hindsight.Just look what Sega used to be:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go7Sf1lwgxohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz2cs_XkAyI
>>11414665>did they just get lucky?Yes. Their one single console success was the genesis being overtaking the snes in the west, which was mostly because of sonic. They constantly made retarded decisions that compounded until they ran out of money and had no choice but to leave the console market. >>11415076>stupidly announce the new Saturn console right when 32x launchedThe saturn was announced BEFORE the 32x was announced. The 32x released in the west the day before the saturn released in japan, and the 32x released in japan AFTER the saturn released. Everyone knew the saturn was coming before the 32x even existed. In fact, the saturn was in development before the 32x. At no point was the 32x ever a good idea.
>>11416196>They also lost tons of talent like Yu SuzukiYou mean the hack that further helped kill the company with Shenmue's exorbitant budget.
>>11416320He made some really influential games like Hang-On, Space Harrier, Out Run, After Burner, Virtua Racing, Virtua Fighter, etc. Besides Shenmue.Supposedly Sega recouped the money, they lost on Shenmue, with the VF3/VF4 money or something.
>>11414665i thought the dreamcast was pretty cool
>>11414665Japan did the Saturn which was a completely fucked up design, America knew it would never sell so they tried to bootstrap a new console into the success of the Genesis, this caused a rift that alienated all consumers, all developers, and all store chains.If they made the Saturn less fucked, or if they went with only ONE console instead of both, they would not have gotten beaten so badly by Sony. At the very least they would not have lost money on the Saturn and would have gotten developers to give them more games.
>>11415028I remember that they stopped licensing hentai anime to english companies because they released all episodes on one disc (uncensored), so otakus just imported the american discs instead of buying 6 DVDs for 6 censored episodes of a series.
>>11415189>HowSega was leading the market at the time, that's how.
genesis was lightning in a bottle because nintendo had no other competition. journey to irrelevance just snowballed from then onward
>>11414891>The average amount of games owned per console tends to be 50 and upwards.This has to be bullshit. Nobody I knew had more than say a dozen games, and that's after 3-4 years of collecting. You basically got one game on your birthday, one on Xmas and maybe one extra if there was some other special occasion. If you worked your ass off during summer, you could save up enough to buy one more game, but only if you were old enough to be able to do that. Not even rich kids had 50 games. The only people who had that many were those who pirated titles.
>>11415001>and Shenmue eating up too much money.Yu Suzuki mentioned that the Virtua Fighter series more than made back the development costs of Shenmue.
>>11415019The video in >>11414832comes up a lot in searches.
>>11414665>after the genesisNot just after, the master system wasn't a hot success either.As for the Genesis, that was the outlier really, somehow all the stars and planets aligned on that one to become a big hit.
Sega of America employees are all rape victims
>>11414665They didn't get lucky they just had a brilliant American and European offices with their fingers on the pulse of the 90's and corporate infighting tore the company apart
>>11416320Better developer than Chinese cocksucker hack Toshihiro Nagoshi and his Like a Redditor franchise.I don’t how you got from making SpikeOut, F-Zero Gx, and Monkey Ball to making “WOAH ZANY JAPANESE GAME XD” saints row. I can’t wait for netease to fuck him over.
>>11414665They had no 1st party support
>>11414680This sums it up pretty simply and is a great answer. The mid-90's saw the rise of RPGs and longer form games. Mario was stepping away from the sit down and beat it in one sitting approach as well. Mario 3 was that kind of game, but mario world wasn't. Sega made games you'd play, master and then beat them in 40-90 minutes. People wanted more out of their games. Also, why the fuck did sega never port golden axe return of death adder? Like what the fuck. They make a great arcade game and don't put it on sega cd or saturn or something? Fucking hell.
>>11414665>did they just get lucky?No, they got complacent and retarded.
>>11418350So rather than just pivot the Saturn, the US made another system that ended up ruining the goodwill the Genesis gathered?
>>11416196Your whole post was very well thought out. I mostly agree with everything. Except this part. >They were great up until the point they got bought by Sammy. I think 80s to 2004 was their peak period.More like 80s to 1998. Sega was actually doing financially very badly around 1998.It was so bad that Sega of Japan board members wanted Sega to leave the hardware market after the massive failure of the Sega Saturn. The Sega of Japan CEO basically begged, used favors, and used every last drop of his political power to convince everyone to stay and try one last time with the Dreamcast. Sega 32x wasn't a full system and didn't require as much financial investment to create. The Sega 32x failing was like a hard slap to the face that leaves a red mark. It stings, but you can recover. Like Nintendo Virtual Boy. The failure of the Sega Saturn was a different animal. It was like a HARD baseball bat swing to the nutz of Sega, they fall to the ground, and several fully grown men continue to stomp on Sega's body while Sega grabs its nutz in pain.Why? Because Sega had overspent way too much on Saturn. Sega of Japan thought Saturn was a guaranteed global hit like Sega Genesis. Also Sega was known for being very bad with money. They would overspend lavishly on products and go way overbudget. They had a reputation for being massive spenders. They expected the Arcade cabinets sales and Sega Genesis sales in Western countries to pay all their bills.Meanwhile companies like Nintendo and Namco very careful with their money. Nintendo was notorious for being frugal. Even arguing with hardware engineers about how many screws are needed in a console case to save money. >Sony also beat them at their own game, which was mature games.Sony had also stolen/lure away many Sega of Americas staff members with promises of more freedom. They were frustrated with SoJ. Tom Kalinske talks about losing top Sega staff members to Sony. These members knew Sega secrets too.
>>11414665SoJ/SoA war and hardware missteps especially during the transition to 3D
>>11414665This is the 1000th time we have had this thread.
>>11418362>Leading the market Maybe in the EUIn US it was constantly butting heads with Nintendo for the first place And in Japan it was dead third
>>11421494Ahh, interesting I didn't know some of that.Well what I meant by "peak" was that Sega was still making quality games until 2004 or so. Besides the Sega first-party Dreamcast games they made titles like: VF4, Super Monkey Ball, Outrun 2, Panzer Dragoon Orta and JSRF.I think their quality has dropped after that. Namco for example, was also better back in the day but they are still doing good I think nowadays. Sega used to be a giant.
>>11421643>I think their quality has dropped after that. Namco for example, was also better back in the day but they are still doing good I think nowadays. Sega used to be a giant.I actually talked to some older Bandai Namco staff members at gaming conventions. I asked about why Namco doesn't release the more fun games and experimental games like they used to do in the past. They told me that many of the people who made those games (and were willing to take risks) have left the company or retired from the industry. The new generation of people that replaced them are more financially conservative and risk averse. They want to play it safe and only release games they know for sure will sell.And this doesn't just apply to Namco, but the rest of the industry as well. Sega had the same issue. People left and moved on. SNK went bankrupt, people left, and the company was bought up too. Basically old Sega is like when someone looks back at their high school years, college years, or maybe that one awesome company they worked for in their youth. For several years, it was great when times were good. You were friends with everyone, and people enjoyed their work. Then one by one, people leave/graduate/leave for another job, some people quit and go start families, you don't see them anymore, and eventually the place just isn't the same anymore. All the people you knew are mostly gone, and you are left wondering if it's time for you to do something else with your life, quit, or just accept that times are different.
>>11421494>They expected the Arcade cabinets sales and Sega Genesis sales in Western countries to pay all their bills.And the late life of the genesis was not cutting it either. They didn't support it enough, basically hurting anyones investment into it if they got in say in in 94 or 95. The SNES has getting big hit games even up to the N64's release. Sega had tried a bit, Golden Axe 3, Vector Man 2 and Sonic 3D blast just weren't cutting it. While SNES is thriving off of Donkey Kong Country 3, Mario RPG and Kirby 3. Nintendos branding and marketing was way stronger. Then you have the SNES getting ports the Genesis didn't. A failed effort to push Saturn. Like for example, Lost vikings 2, Street fighter 2 alpha, didn't get genesis releases. SNES, playstation and saturn releases, but genesis? Nope. Sega needed to maintain the genesis like nintedo was doing with the SNES. Cause while all this was happening, nintendo has a hugely successful launch of the N64 and sony is sniping their saturn sales.
>>11422767>And the late life of the genesis was not cutting it either.Sega Genesis may have launched in 1988 in Japan, but some countries didn't get the Sega Genesis until 1994! That is A full 6 YEARS later! That's because Sega of Japan was very slow to export the Genesis to other countries and established relationships very late.That's why Sega of Europe and and Sega of America told Sega of Japan it was too soon to launch the Sega Saturn. Many parts of the world had just gotten the Sega Genesis.Sega of America and especially Sega of Europe was right. Sega of Japan should have waited until 1995 to launch Saturn in Japan. And 1996 for the USA, Europe, and the rest of the world.That Sega needed to prepare and overall their logistics to do a worldwide launch. Not a staggered launch that takes years to complete.
>>11414671>slow and awkwardYou fell for the sonic marketing hype. Hate to break it to you but everything on the snes ran well due to being made within the limitations of the system. Sonic may be "faster" but that doesn't really account for much when the gameplay is mediocre at best slop. Plus the JRPGs on the Snes blow phantasy star out of the water.
>>11414665>wtf happened to sega after the genesis?spent the next decade losing money until they merged with sammy.>>11414674>piracy killing the Dreamcast>>11414685>Piracy killed the Dreamcastnever happened. poor sales and competition killed the dreamcast and sega's console division. their joke of a copy protection didn't help matters but piracy wasn't the cause of their demise. sega bet the farm on dreamcast and lost. sega fanbois malding to this day over it. sad to witness.
>>11414674/vr/ hates to hear this but it's what really happened back in the day, not like it was gonna last after GTA3, but for quick multiplayer enjoyment DC was the console>>11416117The "DVD narrative" is the kind of insight porn that tech youtubers and their drones love to spout
>>11414665Muttistan, and Sony is repeating the same mistake after making C*liforni* the main HQ of PS
>>11423057>The "DVD narrative" is the kind of insight porn that tech youtubers and their drones love to spoutAnd also the millions of kids who were alive at the era and remember their parents buying a PS2 as their first DVD player.Seriously, DVD was a gigantic fucking change after VHS.>>11421582I recall reading somewhere they had 60% share in the US market in 1993. I don't know if that's true, but it would mean they were leading the market.
>>11423004>poor salescaused by piracy
>>11423267Dreamcast got discontinued before piracy ever really became big. pirate releases only started coming out in late 2000, and the console was already axed half a year after that.In fact the reason the console ever really became popular was because Sega was selling it at $50 to empty their warehouses.
>>11422918Yup, and when the competition is offering cheaper alternatives, you're getting left behind. No one wanted a console to last only a year or two. Sega just also focused too much on hardware and not enough on software. The genesis went way too heavy on 2D side scroller. Chaotix should have been a Genesis game.
>>11421474nah, SOA and SOJ were at odds with each other, SOA wanted more time to dump the existing genesis stock SOJ didn't agree, shit like that was common place. There is plenty of actual history documented if you care for a quick web search instead of believing the crap in this thread. btw you faggots /vr/ is being brigaded by a bunch of MUH PURRRACY shills, this is like the fourth thread I notice with the same shit.
>>11423749Why would you NOT listen to the American branch of your comoany regarding business in America? Isn't the whole point of establishing an American branch is for them to handle business in America? SoJ micro-managing SoA is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
>>11423672The thing wuz never 50 bucks new when the dc wuz still around I sold my dc used for 50 bucks to a friend and he gave it back to me after awhile when he pirated the shit out of it and had enough
>>11423772It was very cheap during the final weeks of Dreamcast being sold in stores. I remember it being $99 dollars. Then $75. Then $50 at the very end.
>>11414683goddamn, what a retard
>>11423760Why would you want to listen to the branch that is still trying to breathe life into a years old system when your competition is already gearing towards their next one? Who other than actual poorfags were seeling a Génesis post '95?
>>11423823Nintendo didn't even launch the Nintendo 64 until 1996.
>>11423823>Why would you want to listen to the branch...Because the decisions of the American and European branches led to the Sega Genesis selling 40 million units combined worldwide. And earned Sega Billions of dollars. End of discussion.
>>11423836And if you can't replicate that success with your next system something tells me it was luck
>>11423267>caused by piracy100% never happened>>11423772>he gave it back to me after awhile when he pirated the shit out of it and had enough>and things that never happenedamazing story.>>11423749>btw you faggots /vr/ is being brigaded by a bunch of MUH PURRRACY shills, this is like the fourth thread I notice with the same shit.they're abject failures that can't even be bothered to read basic history about the very shit they claim to care about. it's nothing new:> be me in 1990s> see retards screeching about how pirates killed the c64, the best selling computer of all time that was in production until the early 90s> see same retards screeching about how piracy killed the amiga, when commodore had nothing to do with software distribution or sales and went bankrupt due to incompetence and mismanagement one of the managers of the commodore uk wrote on facebook years ago about this is 100% nonsense. people just don't want to accept how their favourite corporation can fuck up so badly. most faggots here don't even realize that sega had been losing money for roughly a decade before the sammy takeover/merger. most of these faggots don't even know about its owners. that's how much they care about the subject. it really is like these faggots get their hot takes from youtubers with down syndrome.
>>11422718That makes sense. People don't like to take risks and some games or genres simply don't sell that well anymore like 3D platformers (aside from Mario). I have also read that it has to do with budgets being bigger now, there is no room for mid-budget titles anymore.I always have this feeling that gaming (other media such as movies and music too) peaked in the 90s and early 00s, simply because the generations (Boomers and Gen X) that made those games were stronger and more capable.Technology used to advance at a faster pace and they wanted to take advantage of that and bring things to a next level.
>>11424834>I have also read that it has to do with budgets being bigger now, there is no room for mid-budget titles anymore. Oh there's plenty of room for medium budget titles. Recently, Space Marine 2 proved that. A modest budget game made by a dedicated game studio. The problem is that every game company just wants to try to go for a "home run" and release a super blockbuster smash hit like Halo or <Insert famous game franchise here>. Then attach it to a live service and milk the game with DLC for years. It's why Bandai Namco fills their Tokyo arcades with "Gundam VS" arcade cabinets and other Gundam games. But they don't make any experiments anymore like pic related.
>>11414674I remember selling pirated Dreamcast games for $5 each during the summer of 2000. But I noticed that the ones who had also owned a PC at the time, would download and pirate the games themselves. Go figure.
>>11423836Retailers didn't want any genesis or its games past '94, so why bother with that? There just wasn't interest in it. Maybe in Europe it made sense, but America just didn't care anymore
>>11414665No, Master System and Game Gear were good, Saturn was a decent console even if a lot of the decisions around it were bad, Dreamcast was a great console doomed to fail because of the Saturn and 32x, and also Sony's dominance, and the SEGA CD was a decent add-on. I'd say the 32x was the only downright bad hardware SEGA did.I know I'm biased, but to me, while luck was a factor, it is in every success story, SEGA was competent too, to a certain extend, I miss them.
>>11424891I used to download lots of music and porn back then. Good time to be a PC and gaming chad back then. Sadly some of my friends didn't even own a PC back then.
>>11424914Because you are supposed to seriously listen to the branches of your company that sold billions of dollars worth of Sega merchandise and pay all the bills. That's the American and European branches. Not listen to the Japanese branch that was in last place in its home country, and couldn't sell the Mega Drive.It's called Logic.
>>11425076>no listen to us, Genesis are still selling by the dozenWe saw the FY report, everyone moved to the Saturn and its competitors
>>11425081Saturn was a failure. America and Europe were 100% right about the Saturn.
>>11425091and the 32x, Game Gear, Nomad and such weren't?
>>11424959Well the minimum wage at the time was $5 an hour. Ain't nobody can afford to buy and build a gaming PC.
>>11425148The Game Gear was made by Sega of Japan. >The decision to make a handheld console was made by Sega's CEO Hayao NakayamaIt's failure was Sega of Japan's fault.
>>11425248Game Gear didn't fail.
>>11425148You need to learn your history. The Sega Nomad was just a rebranded Sega Mega Jet. The Sega Mega Jet was made by Sega of Japan. It was an attempt to make a portable Sega Mega Drive and sell it Airlines for long flights. The Sega Mega Jet failed and was only sold to Japan Airlines in limited amounts. No other airline wanted it. So Sega of Japan recycled the Mega Jet, and tried to recoup some of their losses by selling it to American customers as a rebranded handheld Genesis. That failed.The Sega Game Gear was also made by Sega of Japan too. So was the Sega CD too. Both made by Sega of Japan. The only one that was debatable was the Sega 32x. Only because the Japanese won't accept responsibility for it. And Tom Kalinske (CEO of Sega of America) said he was ordered to sell new hardware by Sega of Japan CEO counter Atari. Tom Kalinske has gone on record saying he liked the Sega CD, but was never favor of the Sega 32x or Sega Saturn. With Tom not wanting to release anything until a new 3D console was ready. Tom also said he also didn't like Saturn's complicated design, and wanted to involve American companies partner with Sega and manufacture more powerful chips for their next console. Tom was rebuffed by Sega of Japan and basically told to stop questioning their orders and just obey Japan. Which is a major reason many of Sega of America's upper management left for Sony of America. Sony promised better pay and more freedom to market the Playstation. Tom Kalinske eventually left Sega too, and went onto to successfully run another American company.
>>1142528532x was SoJ trying to appease Kalinske who refused to sell Saturn at its projected price. Your information is out of date.
>>11425282Yes it did. They literally shut down the handheld division due to insuffient sales, and transferred the employees to other divisions like the console division.
>>11425289The Saturn was too expensive and Tom Kalinske was right. Playstation crushed Sega on pricing.
>>11425292>Yes it didIncorrect. 10.6 million units is a success. It simply finished its run.>>11425294They were aggressive with price matching, Kalinske speaking out of order and requesting wasteful projects for stagnant platforms did significantly more damage to the company than a console that cost more than its competition for 2 months.
>>11425301>Kalinske speaking out of orderthe company was owned by CSK at the time so whatever went down would have been approved of at much higher levels of ownership. seriously doubt tom was speaking out of order, being CEO of sega america and having saved sega from earlier ruin> requesting wasteful projects for stagnant platforms did significantly more damage to the company than a console that cost more than its competition for 2 months.releasing the 32x and saturn was their major mistake that got the ball rolling toward sega becoming irrelevant. both sides of the ocean were to blame for that. the japs fumbled the bag when it came to consoles. they even had an opportunity to work with sony at one stage and apparently tom said "what a stupid idea" and something about sony having no idea how to make hardware or software. i think tom might have been retarded, this is while sony was trying to get playstation off the ground. sega had opportunities but piss them up the wall. it's amazing how they can go from early pioneers of 3d games to dead.
>>11414665They failed with add ons to the Genesis and messed up the Saturn, had they not done this, they would have beat Nintendo. SEGA understood hardware better than Nintendo did, but they were killed with bad gimmicks and poor leadership.
>>11425459> but they were killed with bad gimmicks and poor leadership.people just refuse to accept this. they keep telling themselves every day how that saturn is great! nothing wrong with it! and even better than the playstation! 32x was really great (if only more software was made for it!). etc. it's mix of mental illness and extreme denial.
>>11425464I grew up with the Genesis, it was better than SNES, but normies ate Nintendo slop. I can still admit everything post Genesis was just retardation. If SEGA acquired a deal with SGI over Nintendo, things would have been different. SEGA appealed too much to older kids, Nintendo has always had the iron grip on small children and families.
>>11425459*and piracy
>>11425479>it was better than SNESLAWL
>>11425548>If SEGA acquired a deal with SGI over Nintendo, things would have been different.sega already had much experience with 3d hardware. sgi wouldn't be much use. yu suzuki managed to take chips used by the defense industry, worth hundreds of dollars each, and make affordable versions for the model 1 and model 2 arcade boards. sega simply didn't have the money to do it for consoles or the leadership to understand what was coming in the console world.>>11425548anon is right. it was far better than the snes 8bit/16bit snes. there's no defense for that shitty 65816 chip.
>>11423772>The thing wuz never 50 bucks new when the dc wuz still around10 second google search proves you wrong.
>>11425457>tom said "what a stupid idea" and something about sony having no idea how to make hardware or software.That was Sega of Japan. We have literal interviews talking about this event.Tom was all about cross-company collaboration. He wanted to Sega to work with multiple American companies and Sony. But Sega of Japan pride and ego said no.Sega of America even got sued in court because Sega of Japan forced them to shut down a collaboration deal.
>>11425585>sega simply didn't have the money to do it for consoles or the leadership to understand what was coming in the console world. They did. The head of Sega of Japan Engineering said in an interview that they could have modified the Sega Model 1 arcade board and used it for the Sega Saturn. It was even briefly considered. But the Executives higher ups decided against it and went with Hitachi chips. (Probably because of the very shady relationship between the Sega CEO and Hitachi CEO).
>>11425301>10.6 million units is a success.Not when the competition sells 10x as much. It's like saying the Gamecube was successful against the PS2. Or the Saturn against the Playstation. Oh wait.
>>11425632>The head of Sega of Japan Engineering said in an interview that they could have modified the Sega Model 1 arcade board and used it for the Sega Saturn.source?
>>11425585>snes 8bit/16bit snesUse your words, doublenigger.
>>11425636>source?No offense. But These Sega threads really should need to have an FAQ section by this point with answers to common debate topics. I'm getting really tired of arguing and reposting the same links over and over again.And I only just discovered this board 8 months ago.
>>11425645Sounds like you got btfo'd
>>11425649nta btfo is not a verb, you seem illiterate and pasteurized
>>11425652Got destroyed so hard all you could do is point out a typo
>>11425679>Doesn't know what nta meanslol'd, lmao'd
>>11425636It's in the archive. Check last month.
>>11425689>Doesn't know that nta is often just a coverupkek
>>11425709>multiple anons mock him oftenTelling
>>11425464The saturn does have a lot going for it, people aren't lying to themselves about the on paper specs. Except, the saturn had competition. I'd dare say that mario 64 being playable at various stores probably helped nintendo sell 10 N64's a day for a full year. Sega didn't have a demo game as "wow!" as that. Sonic 2 was that demo for them once. Where was the killer game on saturn? Or 32x? You're on point, sega knew hardware, but yea, that doesn't sell games.
>>11425728>sega knew hardware, but yea, that doesn't sell games.They didn't know efficient hardware. Sega's answer to everything is to make everything more complicated and throw more money at itNintendo's answer is always "What's the cheapest we can make it, but still be able to play our games?"That's why Nintendo won.
>>11425701If you can't link into the article then you may as well be posting your own headcanon.
>>11425728>Where was the killer game on saturn?Arguably it had quite a bunch, Panzer Dragoon 1-2, Sega Rally, VF2 and Nights all looked incredible.The problem wasn't that. It's that NO STORES CARRIED THE SATURN thanks to the butchered launch.
>>11415086>I simply do not understand why the Japanese can't looked inward, and ask themselves what they did wrong and improve for the future. They just lash out when things don't go their way.If you look at their history, you can see that it's probably genetic or at the very least completely ingrained into their societal makeup now.
>>11415082>We've been around longer...holy shit those dumb fuckers. I bet they don't even known why SEGA is called SEGA.
>>11425872So it was the inverse of the PS3's problem.
>>11425635>Not when the competition sells 10x as much3x*Game Boy sold 33m before it was replaced. This is counting Pocket sales. 10m is considered a success in console sales, which is why 10m pce/tg16s is considered a success.You have terrible information and no perspective.>>1142545732x was the only mistake. You only seem to understand Kalinske had success launching sonic, not even the genesis. You have no idea how he performed over his tenure and abdicate him of all responsibility based on hearsay. Failed analysis.
>>11415082Kalinske said many things, including but not limited to how sega's refusing SGI for the Saturn was the worst deal possible, and as stories and rumors go, new bit to me btw, afterwards he directed sgi towards nintendo. https://www.cbr.com/mistakes-still-haunt-sega/https://www.sega-16.com/2006/07/interview-tom-kalinske/Bottom line is it all reinforces the notion that sega of america and sega of japan were at odds with each other, and that seemed to be some sort of fucked up culture inside sega itself because the arcade division refused to help the console division for both the console and porting arcade games to the saturn. >>11415076>>11415069>(others)afaik what Kalinske wanted was to both move megadrive stock and give the saturn more time before a western launch, all the contradicting shit stemmed from their internal war.
>>11425872None of these games are on par with mario 64 or sonic 2.
>>11422718>They told me that many of the people who made those games (and were willing to take risks) have left the company or retired from the industry. The new generation of people that replaced them are more financially conservative and risk averse. They want to play it safe and only release games they know for sure will sellIsn't this the story of all media companies right now? I hear the same things about film studios. No one wants to take risks or try, they are 100% risk adverse and only want to bank on guaranteed names and things they know will sell. so they stick to the same old IPs forever and ever.
>>11423760Because no one will listen to fat decadent roundeye baka gaijin! If they were truly smart and special they would have been born Japanese!
>>11425285Even then the real failure of the Nomad was that it just came a little too late. People were just not as interested in Genesis games, and developers were not going to continue making new ones either. If the Nomad came out in 92-93 it would have been huge. But it hit shelves at the end of the life of a console when fans were looking to the next generation and wanting those new cosoles for christmas instead.
>>11426363>People were just not as interested in Genesis games,No. People were not interested in paying $200 (!) dollars for a portable Genesis that destroys batteries after 90 minutes of play. It's too steep a price. Especially since Gameboy was much cheaper.
>>11425985The problem is that you aren't supposed to micro-manage your branch offices. The whole POINT of establishing a foreign branch is to allow them to handle business that your home office isn't equipped to handle. And to hire local Executives to run the branch office who have good relationships with other companies.Sending a Japanese Executive to run things is laughable. They can't speak English and they know zero people in the country. They also aren't familiar with local laws and customs.
>>11425981>Game Boy sold 33m before it was replaced.Gameboy sold around 120 million units. Your numbers are way off. Sega wanted way more sales just 10 million for game gear. They wanted to challenge Nintendo in the handheld market but failed and felt it was better to focus their resources elsewhere and stopped supporting game gear. They admitted this interviews. You can't dispute this fact or twist. We've known this for years. >10m is considered a success in console sales, No. It's not. That's why Dreamcast failed. You need to sell much more to recoup your investment.
>>11425457>both sides of the ocean were to blame for that.Sega 32x was manufactured in Japan with Japanese chips. So not really.
>>11426579Because Tom Kalinske wanted Sega 32x and Japan trusted him. They were fooled by that incompetent American. It's his fault.
>>11426613>Because Tom Kalinske wanted Sega 32x and Japan trusted him. They were fooled by that incompetent American. It's his fault.Then why didn't Sega of Japan listen to Tom about the Sega Saturn? Why didn't they listen to him when he said Saturn was bad complicated design, and that Western game studios wouldn't like it? That Sega of Japan should redesign it and use more powerful American made chips. You place all the blame on Tom Kalinske for 32x, but your story doesn't even add up or make sense.We know the real truth. It's like Tom Kalinske said. Sega of Japan came in at the end of Sega Genesis' life and took away Sega of America's freedom to act. Tom tried to his best to work with the restrictions but just became upset and left the company. It's not just Tom that tells this same story. Other staff members that left Sega of America around the same time tell similar stories. That Sega of Japan became too controlling and took away Sega of America's freedom. SoJ stopped listening to SoA staff and just started barking orders at SoA. It's why many SoA staff members left and went to Sony of America. Better pay and more freedom. Tom Kalinske even jokes in interviews that Sony beat Sega of America at appealing older teens and adults because he lost so many Sega marketing staff members to Sony. They poached his own team.
>>11425628>that was Sega of Japan.false.>>11425981>You only seem to understand anon was 100% right. >>11426579> not coping well at all>so not really.yes. really.it's always great to see /vr/'s collective of schizo compulsive liars handled and slapped around like cheap whores by anons that know their shit. lmao.
>>11426636>you place all the blame on Tom Kalinske for 32x,because the 32x was SoA's idea. they designed it. they were asked to come up with an answer to something atari was making. tom ran the american division and gave the ok. so yeah, it's as much his fault as it is for the other retarded americans that thought this was a great idea. threads such as this is a great reminder of just how fucking incompetent the americans were.
>>11427223Even if you believe 32x was SoA's idea (under orders of SoJ to release some new hardware), it was Sega of Japan that approved the idea and used their factories to make it. SoJ had ultimate responsibility.
>>11427207>anon was 100% right. Anon we've been here before. -You make a claim. -People refute your claim and say your wrong.-You demand source.-Source is given.-You say something like, "Tom Kalinske and all Americans are liars. I don't believe your sources."You've done this a dozen times in different Sega threads already. If you are going to troll us then at least change up your ideas. You are just repeating yourself.
>>11414665Must we have this same conversation, day in and day out, for decades?> >>11414671> >>11414674> >>114148911. They fumbled the first time, first with the 32x\Sega CD.2. They fumbled the second time with the Saturn's development, both in terms of priorities and developer kits.3. Sega of Japan and America fighting like monkeys over a fucking banana that they both end up dropping into rhino dung.Two major fumbles, bickering between the two bases, a poor console made for a generation prior when it should've looked forward, and caused Sega to cause their last fumble with the Saturn. The Dreamcast was a good machine but it was dealing with the accumilated assslamming of several issues on the back end.>But anon, the Dreamcast could've lasted if it did X!Maybe, but it didn't. We know this.>But anon, the Saturn could've survived if they brought over their European and Japanese titles!Maybe, but they didn't. We know this.>But anon, Sega could have-But. They. Didn't.We have had this same conversation, over and over, for the last twelve to fifteen years, be it on here or on /v/ when it was the only video game board.What else is there to be said?Say prayers of thanks to Sega for all the good they did, but look on them no longer, and move on.
>>11427359>Sega of Japan and America fighting like monkeys over a fucking banana that they both end up dropping into rhino dung. 1. You were mostly right except for this part. There wasn't a fight. 2. You forgot about Sega of Europe which sided with Sega of America most of the time. 3. Sega of Japan pretty much became a control freak in the final days the Sega Genesis. For whatever reason, SoJ started bossing around other branches without even listening to their suggestions.Sega of Japan technically had the authority to do this as they were head office. But in doing so, Sega of Japan torpedoed their company and made all the important people in other branches leave Sega. 4. Personally, I think SoJ became obsessed with Sony but I don't know why. Pride? Sega of Japan became very emotional in their decision making. It was very strange.
>>11414665Serious infighting and bad decision-making up until the Dreamcast and Shenmue, which fucked the company in the short term. Managed to get by developing / publishing games for other consoles, to the point where they still managed to survive despite Sonic 06 being catastrophic. Bought the Total War franchise in '05, Sports Interactive in '06, and Atlus in '13 - genuinely very good decisions. Kept making Yakuza games, which eventually paid off for them. When Persona 5 and Yakuza 0 dropped, they printed so much money that they could afford to fund and then scrap Hyenas. Sega is one of the funniest, most bizarre videogame companies when it comes to decision making, and yes, I would say luck has a lot to do with why they're still around.
>>11427359No, actually, include the Dreamcast in that list, search for Sega and 3DFX, they actually pulled the same shit again for the Dreamcast.
>>11427359>The Dreamcast was a good machine but it was dealing with the accumilated assslamming of several issues on the back end. You are giving Sega too much credit. The Dreamcast was only designed the way it was designed because Sega was low of cash and had to focus on a budget friendly console and put most of the money into the Dreamcast GPU. Which admittedly is something they should have done to begin with.If Sega wasn't so strapped for cash, they probably would have dumped a ton of unneeded features into the Dreamcast and made the design overly complicated. Just like they did for Saturn.>>11427565>Managed to get by developing / publishing games for other consolesWell Sega was on the verge of bankruptcy and got bought by Sammy corporation.
>>11427648>Sega got bought by Sammy corporation.I somehow completely forgot about this, you're absolutely right.
>>11427648>Well Sega was on the verge of bankruptcy and got bought by Sammy corporation.They were just on the verge. They were going to declare bankruptcy because they were like $1 billion dollars in debt. The Saturn and Dreamcast wiped them out. Sega couldn't even afford to pay employees.Then the current Sega CEO (who came from a very wealthy Japanese family) paid off the debt at the very last minute. Then gave a speech saying Dreamcast was the best system Sega ever made. Then he died a few months later. Sega made a statue of him in their office.Then Sammy bought Sega.
>>11427732>Then the current Sega CEO (who came from a very wealthy Japanese family) paid off the debt at the very last minute. Then gave a speech saying Dreamcast was the best system Sega ever made. Then he died a few months later.The one true gamer.......
>>11427648>If Sega wasn't so strapped for cash, they probably would have dumped a ton of unneeded features into the Dreamcast and made the design overly complicated. Just like they did for Saturn.Bernie gave them a checklist of shit to add, which went something like 2nd analog stick, dvd drive, internet. Japan told them they can afford one of the three, Bernie told them to go with Internet.
>>11426037They were all extremely impressive to look at, Nights was brought up for many years later for its unique dreamscape look, but fact is that nobody gave a shit because the Saturn had so little marketing presence.
>>11427223>because the 32x was SoA's idea. they designed it.You forgot the part that Japan wanted them to launch a new console, Tom said they can't launch the Saturn because it was too expensive, and the Genesis is still very popular. Japan said ok, then do a an add-on that gives it more colors so it doesn't get mogged by the SNES. Tom said that's stupid, if they do an add-on, they could make it a lot more than just extra colors. Then they sketched up the 32x design on a napkin.But the important part is, if at any of those parts Japan says no, fuck you, we are launching the Saturn, then the 32x wouldn't have happened.
>>11427528>3. Sega of Japan pretty much became a control freak in the final days the Sega Genesis. For whatever reason, SoJ started bossing around other branches without even listening to their suggestions.This is *the* fight that was happening. Japan got successful for the first time ever thanks to Virtua Fighter selling more Saturns in a holiday season the Megadrives sold ever, and they suddenly thought they knew how to manage all of their overseas offices and bossed them around constantly. Tom was on record that by the last few months, his job was basically to sit in his office and look out the window because he wasn't allowed to do shit.
>>11427583That was 3DFX's fault. They made an IPO that included details about them working on a chipset for a new Sega console, which was supposed to be a secret at the time, so Sega told them to fuck off (not in so few words but to the same effect).
>>11427264> gets btfo> seethes> thinks people will buy his revisionist history despite it being well documented> has some random anon living rent free in his meth soaked mindthe anon is still 100% correct and you have severe brain damage. what is most astounding with /vr/'s collective of compulsive liars and deranged drug addicts is that they can't even be bothered to look things up for themselves. and we know why, because you know the truth and would rather have a mental breakdown. why don't you prove anons wrong then? you seem to think you're a genius. using google shouldn't be too hard for you, no? instead of typing in the search engine "preteen boys" try entering in "sega history" and let us know what you find. post links. we've already seen enough of your concerning level of schizophrenia.
>>11427259>Even if you believe 32x was SoA's ideait was. they had a choice of building a new enhanced version of megadrive but they decided to go with an expansion so people didn't have to go any buy a new megadrive system with the enhancements.> b..but sega of japan! ultimate responsibility!they didn't design the 32x. the japs told the americans what they should have done, the retarded americans said no.. we're making an expansion and they all agreed on it.>>11428110>so it doesn't get mogged by the SNES.they were already mogging the snes in a few countries. they were concerned about the atari jaguar. they seriously believed atari were going to release something that would beat them in the market place. little did they know the jaguar would be a fucking pile of shit.>Then they sketched up the 32x design on a napkinnot surprising really.
>>11414685Sega was already completely doomed by the time people figured out how to pirate games on the Dreamcast. Even though the Dreamcast sold well it needed to do much better for Sega to remain a viable console manufacturer. Piracy stopped the Dreamcast from getting some late third party releases like Half Life but the Dreamcast itself was already dead.
>>11428114>This is *the* fight that was happening.Fighting implies that both sides can put up an actual "fight" or put up resistance. This wasn't the case with Sega. Legally, the other branch offices had to literally obey whatever Sega of Japan said. But Sega of Japan almost never did this until many years later.Imagine Sega of Japan is the parent, and they are mostly hands off raising their child and trust them to be a good kid. Only stepping in a few times when needed. Sega of America ends up being a great kid and does well in school. Then suddenly when Sega of America is a teenager at 17 years old, Sega of Japan goes nutz and imposes all these rules and becomes a completely different micro-managing parent. And completely messes up the relationship. >>11428154What's really sad is how wrong you are, but you are so deluded you can't see it.Tom Kalinske was CEO of Sega of America. He didn't just handle Sega consoles. He was also responsible for arcade machine sales in North America. North America (followed by Europe) was the biggest buyer of Sega Arcade machines in the entire world. He made more money for Sega in one year than Sega of Japan did in the span of several years. 32x is failed add on, but it failing only really hurt Sega's reputation with retailers and the general public. It didn't hurt Sega's financials or money. Arcade cabinet sales in North America more than made up for the 32x not selling. You would KNOW THIS if you actually did research and looked beyond just Sega consoles. No one cares about your leaked condole documents because it's just focuses on consoles. And has zero info about Sega Arcade cabinets sales. These cabinets easily cost $10,000 to $20,000 each. And they sold tens of thousands of them. Possibly hundreds of thousands. Each arcade in the 90s had MULTIPLE Daytona USA cabinets and House of the Deads.
>>11414665The Japs fucked up.
>>11428836> He made more money for Sega in one year than Sega of Japan did in the span of several yearshttps://www.gamespot.com/articles/sammy-reveals-new-logo-changes-at-sega/1100-6099624/>"Unfortunately, Sega has been in the red for nearly 10 years. It would tighten things up if the [board] members that had directing position and representative rights took responsibility [for Sega's downturn]">"I feel that Sega has high individual capabilities, but it's too separated into different subsidiaries," commented Satomi on the remerger of Sega’s subsidiaries. "Sega wasn't able to create an overall corporate strategy or [a sense of] uniformity because of that, which is a major reason behind the company's stagnation. Oguchi himself has been feeling the same way. It's about time that we returned back to the old [structure of] Sega."> ten fucking yearsweew> published: 2004when did the 32x launch?> 1994embarrassing.>What's really sad is how wrong you arenot that anon but he's right about everything. sega of america were vastly incompetent. what's really sad is you spending an entire thread trying to defend americans that did nothing to try and turn around sega's fortunes. > if i change the subject to arcades then that will make me look less retardedand they were still losing money. i wonder who is wrong exactly? it's not that anon, it's not the founder of sammy corporation that bought sega. i wonder who it could be?> (You)ah. there we go.
>>11429083When did Sega Saturn come out? 1994.Sega of America AND Sega of Europe made tons of money for Sega of Japan.>and they were still losing moneyBecause Sega of Japan promptly spent it on lavish projects that went no where and sold poorly Sega SG-1000 Mark 1 Sega SG-1000 Mark 2 Sega SG-1000 Mark 3 Sega Master System Sega CD Sega Mega Karaoke Sega Mega PC Sega Mega Jet Sega Mega Teradrive PC Sega Pico Sega Pico Advanced Sega Laser Active Sega Nomad Sega Game Gear Sega CDX Sega HiSaturn Sega HiSaturn Navi Sega Saturn Karaoke Sega JVC V-Saturn Sega Skeleton Saturn Sega PriFun Sega Saturn Arcade HotelSega Dreamcast TVSega Dreamcast Hello KittyEtc etc Notice something? Most of this entire list is Japanese only products. Never released outside of Japan. Look how much waste Sega of Japan had. All that money wasted on products that sold awful. You would know your history if you actually read some gaming history books written by actual historians. People who have traveled to Japan, interviewed employees and staff members, looked through financial Data, did in depth research, and published books about it. Not just relied on Wikipedia like you do.
>>11428905This, they were to stubborn and racist to trust Sega of Americas' advice.
>>11429083Theres one major flaw in your argument. If the Sega 32x add-on failing caused Sega of Japan to collapse (like you claim), then Sega of Japan wasn't a very well run company to begin with.Notice how the Nintendo Virtual Boy didn't cause Nintendo to collapse? You don't have fanboys 30 years later on message boards claiming that the Nintendo Virtual Boy caused Nintendo to fail. Why? Because Nintendo of Japan is a much better run company. Virtual Boy failing was just a "small oopsie" to them and Nintendo quickly moved on.
>>11429083>> ten fucking years >weew >> published: 2004 >when did the 32x launch? >> 1994 >embarrassingAnon listen to yourself. Sega of Japan was a multi-billion dollar company that was a BILLION dollars in debt. The Sega 32x doesn't cost 1 billion dollars to manufacture and sell. Space Rockets that are used to go to the Moon only cost tens of millions. The Sega 32x is not more expensive than a Space rocket. Use common sense anon.
>>11423760>>11426354>>11426562Because Sega of America was retarded? And the idea of that Sega of Japan was 100% at fault started because of fags like Tom Kalinske giving his own bias interpretation of what happened and jealous Americans? And the biggest problem that happened at Sega was that Sega of Japan did listen to Sega of America and allowed the 32x to become a thing?I mean, the idea Sega of America had was gonna fail, they were going to spend all their time focusing on the Genesis when the Genesis was gonna die by 1997 as the PlayStation became dominant.The biggest problem was that Sega of Japan gave Sega of America too much autonomy when they should have just done what Nintendo did and not allow their foreign branches to act too independently.
>>11429260Sega of Europe also disagreed with Sega of Japan. Sega of Europe agreed with Sega of America and wanted the Saturn delayed. Some countries in Europe didn't even get Genesis until 1994. Releasing the Saturn in 1994 was too soon. Genesis still had at least 1 year of life in America. Just like Nintendo SNES. They could have pushed Saturn to 1996.
>>11414941Sonic, Shining Force, why there hasn't been a new SRPG entry since SF3 just boggles my mind.
Sometimes I like to imagine a world where Capcom, SNK or Konami were able to release home hardware in the late 90s/early 2000s. Probably wouldn't have done well either but maybe not as dumb as SEGA during the same period.
>>11428182>they were already mogging the snes in a few countries.every single multiplatform that came out after 93 was commented on for the SNES version having better colors, better sound, and better controls, except for a few that supported the 6-button controller like Primal Rage or Judge Dredd, there the SNES version was only noted for having better sound and colors. this was a huge weak point that contemporary magazines brought up a lot, same as how the Saturn couldn't do transparencies.
>>11429083who green lighted the 32x?>sega of japanembarrassing>>11429260>Because Sega of America was retarded?if it werent for sega of america and tom kalinske turning into a marketing juggernaut, sega would've been just another third rate nintendo copy like the turbografx that would have completely disappeared after the 16bit era
>>11429334>Some countries in Europe didn't even get Genesis until 1994.no, that was the mega cd, which is why the pal model 1 exceptionally rare but the model 2 is relatively commonmegadrive was everywhere by 1992 already, even commie bloc shitholes had them.
>>11429083You never knew that Arcade and Sega Genesis sales paid for everything at Sega of Japan? Sad.
>>11429364the world where everyone was able to afford a neo geo is the realm I wish to live in
>>11429364>Sometimes I like to imagine a world where Capcom, SNK or Konami were able to release home hardware in the late 90s/early 2000s. They could have done it. The problem is that making 3D games is much more expensive than 2D games. Think 3x more expensive. So companies couldn't afford it, and even if they could they couldn't afford to experiment like they could 2D games. There's no way SNK could make hundreds of 3D games like they did for for the Neo Geo where they made hundreds of 2D games.Capcom struggled with 3D as well. They couldn't make the jump to a true 3D street fighter. They messed around with 2.5D like with Marvel VS Capcom 2.
>>11429364>>11429528Capcom did make their arcade system into a limited run of home consoles in Japan but clearly it didn't lead to anything bigger
>>11429115>>11429140>>11429159>>11429438>>11429506> btfo so badly that it hurts themalways great to see. looking forward to next thread of revisionist history where /vr/'s collective of failures blame the japanese and try to make sega of america look like they were just great.
>>11429441>no, that was the mega cd,No anon. Do your research. Several countries didn't get the Sega Genesis until close to the mid 90s.Czech Republic, Slovenia, and several other European countries didn't get the Genesis until 1993.China didn't get Sega Genesis until late 1993.India didn't get it until 1994. Russia didn't get it until mid to late 1994.Meanwhile Japan had The Genesis since 1988.
>>11429790>Some countries in Europe didn't even get Genesis until 1994.>China didn't get Sega Genesis until late 1993.>India didn't get it until 1994.those aren't even european countries. american education at its finest.
>>11428118Of course, and entirely justified, the problem is that at point sega had a history pattern with sega of america, and with Hitachi, furthermore was bleeding money real bad, the choice as forced as it was ended up hurting them equally if not worse.
Sega of Japan and America wouldn't stop fighting over how to handle the console market and went behind each other's backs with terrible decisions and miscommunication until they were both beyond saving. Too many people had sticks up their asses and their pettiness took everyone else with them.
>>11414683Why the fuck would you compare Mario to Shenmue when they're not even the same kind of game?I could understand Sonic or something but fucking Shenmue?
>>11428118>which was supposed to be a secret at the timeNo it wasn't. And when you make an IPO you HAVE to disclose all Information like that. It's the law in America. You can't keep it from shareholders.
>>11430695Sega of Japan doesn't know how to make a console. Sega of Japan had 3 console failures before America made the Genesis a success.
>>11429537>Capcom did make their arcade system into a limited run of home consoles in Japan but clearly it didn't lead to anything biggerThat was because Capcom had a bunch of old and unsold arcade boards sitting in their warehouse. So they converted them for home use and sold them to Capcom fans. It was more about clearing out old stock than actually developing a real console.
>>11429790>Czech Republic, Slovenia, and several other European countries didn't get the Genesis until 1993. My family is from the Czech Republic. I don't care what random site says 1993. You couldn't get a Genesis locally until 1994. I remember because I wanted one so badly and no one had it in stock.
>>11430729>Sega of Japan doesn't know how to make a console.>America made the Genesis a success.let's see who built the genesis:>Designed by an R&D team supervised by Hideki Sato and Masami Ishikawavery american names. apparently knew how to make a console. what a fucking idiot.
>>11430697>Why the fuck would you compare Mario to Shenmue when they're not even the same kind of game?you must be new here? this board is full of delusional compulsive liars that don't have any clue what's going on. they can't even use a search engine. these dumb fucking morons would also claim street fighter and kirby share similarities if they could get away with it.
>>11431894SOA build Mega Drive/Genesis as a brand, not as a console, this is the main reason why they fucked up big time with Saturn, because they couldn't follow up. They fucked up with SEGA Sports, they fucked up with 3D Sonic and the cherry on top was Sony hiring SEGA of America niggers to work on the PlayStation.SEGA of Japan fucked up with those Saturn SDK, SEGA of America can't do shit and the 3rd parties they got couldn't do shit. Bug was developed almost blindly. It was a clusterfuck.
>>11431910> SOA build Mega Drive/Genesis as a brandare you fucking stupid? or do you think everyone else is stupid and are unable to read this thread?>>Sega of Japan doesn't know how to make a console.it's too late to change your lies into something else. what an absolute disaster of a thread.
>>11431894Considering their consoles were massive failures in Japan.... nope they don't know how to make a console. They refused to listen to 3rd Party Developers or their feedback.Sega of America at least TRIED to make their own Sega console for North America with Project Blackbelt. It used a 3dfx Voodoo graphics card, and IBM and Motorola processors. It was demo'd to some American Game studios and received positive praise for its ease of software development and straightforward hardware that was easy to program for.Then Sega of Japan heard what they were doing and shut down the project despite positive praise from everyone involved. Then forced Sega of America to use the Dreamcast that used shitty underpowered Japanese chips which were weaker than the American chips.
>>11432031I don't understand Sega of Japan.Their SG-1000, Master System, and Mega Drives were massive failures. Every add-on SoJ made were also big failures.Meanwhile Sega of America and Sega of Europe and making massive money with the Sega Genesis.Why couldn't Sega of Japan just sit back and collect the profits?>BlackbeltWhy couldn't Sega of Japan say, "Sure. Go ahead Sega of America. Make a system that will sell and make us big money. It's clear America is our biggest market and American game studios love this Blackbelt project" ?The Sega of Japan Executives could literally just sit back on a beach and collect huge bonuses and money. Don't need to lift a finger. I just don't get it.Why couldn't Sega of Japan do this?They literally needed to do nothing and just let Sega of America carry the company to victory.
>>11414665the 32x and the Saturn totally tanked their reputation and credibility with developers, retailers, and consumers for a variety of reasons, and Sony had the wherewithal to eat their lunch in the Anglo-American markets. Even through the Dreamcast didn't have the same problems as the Saturn, at that point, their market share was too low.
>>11432049The 32x hurt their reputation a bit. But it was still recoverable. What really hurt and killed Sega was the Saturn. American retailers were PISSED at how that was handled. Too expnsive. Surprise launch. Didn't tell any store about their secret plans. No one was ready. Not enough Saturns were made. Entire retail stores boycotted Sega (which later hurt Dreamcast). Those stores that didn't boycott Sega chose to reduce Sega's footprint in their stores. I remember my EB games had a huge wall dedicated to Nintendo and Sony. But the Sega Saturn kiosk was shoved in the back of the store and they has just one small shelf left for their games.
>>11415016Right? This is exactly the thing Atari went through. You don't make 1 million of something to sell all 1 million. It's coverage and distribution. Mass production of a product means it's going to be more profitable to over produce.
>>11432031>They refused to listen to 3rd Party Developers or their feedback.Sega of Japan considered their consoles as nothing more than a platform to sell their own games on. Sega of America considered it a platform for everyone to sell their games on.It's why SOA > SOJ no matter what anyone else says.
>>11432131Yup. Plus Nintendo and Sony had to do the same things. They had a ton of leftover stock in storage. There's a another thread on /vr/ right NOW where Sony claims they have another 5 million PS2s in unsold inventory. After 20+ years they still have ps2s. So hearing Sega fans talk about leaked documents saying there's unsold inventory is ridiculous. Everything company has unsold inventory.
>>11429438>marketing juggernaut >cool from June 1991 all the way to September 1995Sega had less time of market relevance than fucking Microsoft. Sega was nothing more than a fad and the "people" who still cling to them are pathetic.
>>11414665>genesisMega Drive.
>>11430727No, that anon is right, 3DFX needed to disclose stuff but not give away the whole thing, they were looking to raise stock interest. Sega's reaction was still totally wrong, further alienated their relation with the west further, EA ended leaving, wasted more R&D time and money. I mean, they could've go and released the console while moving katana up to the PS3 gen, still sue the shit out of 3DFX and banked more cash, retain vital third party support...but no, they rather show those pesky westerners how shit rolls in Japan...
>>114353763dfx announced a partnership with Sega and that they were making parts for Sega. That's not giving away the whole thing. That's NORMAL. Just like when Nvidia or AMD announce they are in a partnership with Microsoft and making parts for Xbox. Its normal stuff. Then Sega of Japan ordered Sega of America to abruptly end their contract for no legitimate reason (other than to secretly sabotage Sega of America). You can't just do that for no reason and expect to walk away without consequences. 3dfx had already invested serious money into their Sega projects. That's why 3dfx sued Sega in court and 3dfx won. It's why no other American company wanted to work with Sega again for years because of their crap reputation.
>>11435442>That's not giving away the whole thing. That's NORMALThanks for yelling, asshole. That's just not what happened. Confidential IPOs are a thing, 3DFX was allowed to not publicly disclose stuff, they didn't care. As I said, Sega took that as the perfect excuse to renege the deal. The rest, I agree with.
>>11435501>Confidential IPOs are a thingI don't know what weirdo forum you are get getting your information. But Tom Kalinske and Sega of America publicly announcing they are investing money into 3dfx is not "confidential".
>>11414665Saturn >= Dreamcast > GameGear > GenesisGenesis is bad and sounds like farts.
This is what 90s gamers wanted.
>>11414665I spent the last 2 weeks watching Sega YouTube videos. I came to the conclusion that Sega of Japan didn't know what they were doing. They were a bunch of engineers who liked tinkering with electronics and making products that appealed to themselves. But not necessarily to the general public.The only exception was the Arcade Division. Yu Suzuki knew exactly how to appeal to the general public AND make innovative arcade games. Without the arcade division making so much money, the rest of Sega would have failed in the 1970s.Sega of America and Sega of Europe knew how to market to Western countries. They knew how to take Sega of Japan's wacky designs like the Sega Mega Drive and turn it into a cool console known as the Sega Genesis. Sega of Japan really should have just sat back and let their other divisions handle the work, and accept all the easy money coming their way. But Sega of Japan's ego got in their way and they became obsessive and controlling. They ruined a good thing and drove away people that made their company great.
>>11436686Sega did Shenmue.The reason Sega failed wasn't arcade games, internal fights or any other intrrnet echo chamber thing, it was because of a thing called PlayStation, it took its place. Both Sony and Microsoft were meant to replace the Sega-Nintendo dichotomy. Nintendo survived because of "leave luck to heavens" (and Pokemon)
I was a proud Sega Genesis owner. I was around for the Sega 32x. It actually had some decent hype and people were interested in it. But I remember when I found out that Sega Saturn was coming soon, it killed all hype for the 32x add-on. I had a limited amount of money. It's a shame but I had to save up. I couldn't waste my funds on just an add-on if a new Sega console was just around the corner. The funny part was that when I saved up enough money to buy a Sega Saturn, I bought a Sony Playstation instead. None of my friends had a Sega Saturn and I wasn't interested in the other games. If they had Sonic maybe I would have considered it. The Sega Saturn didn't have as many games and the graphics didn't look as good as Playstation. I then bought a Nintendo 64 later on too. Sega was forgotten my friend group for several years. Then the Dreamcast appeared out of nowhere. I had about 6 friends where we all hung out. Many of us were hesitant about Dreamcast. But 2 of us bought the Dreamcast. It was a decent system. Fun games like Power Stone. But we were also waiting and saving up for the Playstation 2. Then Sega disappeared. And that was it.
>>11436873Accurate description of how it was for most people.I bought a Saturn in the 90s, but even though I enjoyed it with Nights, Sega Rally, VF2 or Panzer Dragoon, I soon forgot about it because: I also had PS1 and N64 and also because games were hard to find, as opposed to PS1 and N64.I re-discoveres the Saturn years later though and I love it, but outside of Japan, it was an obscure console after 1998 or so.
>>11436883Not that anon but Saturn is clearly a console designed by Japanese people for a Japanese audience. They mostly put games on Saturn that appealed to Japanese people. They completely ignored Western audiences and their tastes. No Sonic games and no sequels to any Sega Genesis smash hits like Streets of Rage or Shinobi. The Saturn sports titles were also pretty bad. That really killed any hope Saturn had of appealing to regular people.
>>11432981People always star from their flat earth position and look for evidence to support their theory. People should be learning what an inferior business model retail sales are. Because the store wants to sell them for a profit as well.
>>11436905Shinobi X
>>11436905It’s bizarre that there wasn’t a traditional Golden Axe or even a port of The Revenge of Death Adder when this console had so many arcade ports
>>11436686MGS could have run on Saturn
>>11432049The 32X was a very "lose lose" situation. Terrible support and pretty much everyone was willing to just wait on the release of Saturn. The Saturn, at least in America, was the straw the broke the camel's back. If they had stuck to their guns and not released the console insanely early and thereby pissed of retailers and game developers, they might have had a shotA lot of big IFS included in that. We'll never really know. Sega also had a ton of unsold back stock just sitting in warehouses that was causing them to bleed money because of how poorly regulated selling to big box retailers were in America. For instance, Walmart needed AT LEAST one million of a certain product (let's say Vectorman 2) for them to even consider purchasing to sell to their numerous outlets. From every possible stand point, that's absolutely insane
>>11414665>did they just get lucky?50 percent luck, 50 percent burgeoning market ready for competition.Genesis came out 2 years before super nes and graphically blew the NES out of the water. They were also in a position to market their system as the “cool” and “edgy” alternative to the saturated NES and it worked. Genesis fucked pussy all day and Nintendo was for babies.They also gave third parties a better offer for publishing games in their system to stick it to Nintendo more draconian policies which bloomed its library with a lot of quality titles.Sega couldn’t do this twice in a row because the environment of 1989 and 1995 were entirely different. Sega was in a position to market a serious contender to Nintendo and pulled it off very well.
>>11439248It could have run on an Atari Jaguar if you toned down the graphics fidelity to low enough.Matter of fact is that it did not get released on the Saturn so whether it could run or not is irrelevant.
>>11439486>A lot of big IFS included in that. We'll never really know. Sega also had a ton of unsold back stock just sitting in warehouses that was causing them to bleed money because of how poorly regulated selling to big box retailers were in America. For instance, Walmart needed AT LEAST one million of a certain product (let's say Vectorman 2) for them to even consider purchasing to sell to their numerous outlets. >From every possible stand point, that's absolutely insaneNope. That's normal. It's reason why you have toilet paper in stores and 95% of the time you never run out and shelves are always stocked. There are warehouses filled with extra stock that can be summoned on demand. Walmart can't predict what items will be popular or surge in demand. So they require every item to have a reserve in storage. That's how it works in the USA for all major retailers like Walmart, Target, JC Penny, etc. Sony themselves claim they still have 2 to 5 million unopened Playstation 2 units sitting in storage. Even after 25 years.
>>11414665So basically it goes like this, During the beginning the win the Genesis popped off, and understanding was made Sega of japan would make most of all of the tech, and Sega of America would handle the marketing and promotion. Because SoJ couldn't market for shit, they turned to SoA to help them. And this is when the snakening began, over time SoA would start would do less and less marketing for anything that wasn't guarantee'd to sell, because in the time of the late 80's - late 90s, marketing and advertisers were some of the most shameless, shallow, exploitive product peddlers known to man, you can easily see that is why Sega's marketing ads were so aggressive against it's competition back. Anyways Sega of America wouldn't budge on promoting any risky products at all most of the time, and would often tell there japanese collegues that "X won't really sell overseas so it's best not to even try it". While most people would think that makes sense, it's best to stick with what works, this is not what you want to hear from marketers at all. Their job is suppose gather interests and convince people to buy stuff at the end of the day. Yeah, the product is risky and the demand for it is rather low, but that's why we have marketers like you in the first place, we need you actually do your jobs and raise that demand by making the product look appealing. Anyways back to the issue of SoA telling SoJ what's marketable and what's not. As SoA basically began to get complacent with the genesis' sucess, SoA began to get really picky about what games they wanted to work with selling overseas, this why you'll end up noticing if your an advent retro games enjoyer, that the Genesis whole library is basically all simple, single player is Arcade types games. Naturally the genesis has more to offer than that, but when you look at the things that were actually given US/world wide releases, it was mostly the aforemented Arcade games, nothing too lengthy, too complicated. (1/2)
>>11439728(2/2)The reason for this, you can safely assume is that alot of what SoA had done to make the Genesis the sucess it became is because they're whole MO when it came to marketing was shame shit Hasbro was notorious for with it's toys advertisements, aggressively exploit how small the attention span of children are to make them want cool and flashy games so that's all the rage. Considering that motive you can now get an understand of why they were doing shit like pushing for riding the wheels off of the genesis came the time when Sony's going around making plans to entern the market and the playstation is on the cusp of being born. along with the rise of transitioning to making more powerful and ulitimately 3-D games. SoA's shallow marketing stragedy could adapt to accomadate advertivising that doesn't have immediate latching power. I was gonna to make this point earlier before stating that reasoning, but there is a story pertaining to Phantasy star the genesis games, and how SoA when asked to market those, they didn't even bother and instead set the Retail price of those games for like $40-50 above what average genesis games were selling for, most infamously, Phantasy star 4's retail price being just under 100 bucks in the US, and one wonders why Phantasy star never probably took off despite being one of Sega's famous franchises. The claim to that story does mention that Phantasy Star 4 did manage to sell out, even though it was priced abnormally high, and there were even suspicions made then that it was given that price to flop in the US intentionally. But summarize, it was around that point or sometime after the fight for control began. Sega of Japan was convinced they needed either Sega of America to see reason and take actual marketing risks, or ultimately do things on their own with as little input from Sega of America as possible. Sega's civil war ultimately was a war between the Manufacturing branch (SoJ) and the Marketing Branch (SoA).
>>11439523don't forget that they developed games locally that would appeal to the american audience. they had long back and forth with Japan about which design for Sonic was better. they asked the Streets of Rage team to do modifications for SOR2 because they wanted it to be their #2 seller in 1992 behind Sonic. they had their own dev studios to make games locally.by the time the saturn came, they had to outsource 1st party titles to third parties and even then they were unable to send them devkits. the 2-3 US-made titles all got cancelled. any concept their american teams came up with, got shot down. we could've gotten Eternal Champions 3 or Comix Zone 2 but execs said no.
>>11432039>Why couldn't Sega of Japan say, "Sure. Go ahead Sega of America. Make a system that will sell and make us big money. It's clear America is our biggest market and American game studios love this Blackbelt project" ?>The Sega of Japan Executives could literally just sit back on a beach and collect huge bonuses and money. Don't need to lift a finger.Because that's how corporate munities happen and take overs happen. A modern example of this would be Sony in the PS3 going the the big move in California after the PS4. The PS3's launch marked the begging of the decline of Sony of Japan's influence, and during that time it Was basically Sony of America's marketing strategies that help weather them trhrough that storm and get the PS3 to turn a profit, Come around to the Ps4 era, and Kaz stepping down as head CEO and that position then given to Jim Ryan, Sony was effectively taken over from being a Japanese focused company, to being a Western focus one. Sony today has a lot of similarities with Sega back then.
>>11439964It's a not mutiny. Japan still owns the company. All they need to do is sit back and collect their royalties and profit. No big deal.
>>11439964>Japan still owns the companyWas founded by Americans it's was an American company technically and Japan didn't get majority control until Sega was force out of the console market and it's debts were payed by Isao Okawa, the man who gave his whole life's savings to save Sega.
>>11441823To further explain how there relationship got like that. Understand that Sega of Japan was the primary manufacturing branch, and Sega of America was the Marketing branch. SEGA was founded in response to Nintendo holding a monopoly on the video game industry after the crash. Because this had happen around the time manufacturing in the US in all industries was getting stripped in outsourced out of the country near completely especially in the tech fields, and because Japan had already proven itself to be the most adept to find game console makers and developers, SEGA set up a Japanese branch to snag some of that talent that would have went to Nintendo or another upstarting Japanese company if not them. Any manufacturing that was setup by Sega of America was outsourced to a third party rather than actually done by them on their end.
>>11441823For>>11441814
>>11441823Sega was split in 1894 by Gulf and Western. The American assets were sold to Midway and the Japanese management teamed up with David Rosen to purchase the Japanese assets. Rosen then let the Japanese run the company because he did not want to move back to Japan to run it himself. This is notable because David Rosen was the biggest opponent of Sega manufacturing consoles, but Sega of Japan thought that the SG-1000 was enough of a sucess for them to keep trying to break into the market.
>>11441848That's the spilt though, not when Sega fully became Japanese, you are right though, that's still very important to note as to both sides were trying to out do each other for full control.
>>11441834Sega of America was making Arcade cabinets. Wtf are you talking about.
>>11441865We are talking about in the context of home consoles.
>>11441870Don't you realize that arcade cabinet sales profits in North America were massively bigger then console sales? It's not an exaggeration to say that the profits from Arcade cabinet sales in North America (and Europe) literally funded Sega of Japan and all their zany ideas. The Saturn was created from Arcade cabinet sale profits. And the Genesis is built from a modified Arcade board.
>>11441904Off topic but I would argue that Sega's main problem when it came to consoles was not having enough crazy ideas, all they ever seemed to do was copy others. >copy the colecovision >copy the dpad>copy hudsons beecard>copy Nintendos light gun>copy Nintendos 3d glasses>copy the gameboy>copy the PC Engine GT>copy the Amiga/x68000>copy the PC Engine CD>copy the fucking jaguar The first orginal thing Sega did outside of arcades was the Saturn and that bankrupted the company.
>>11441904Japan still made the most of games for those arcades. Sega of America just put together the cabinets and because America's so much bigger than Japan and arcades in the US are still booming as business, of course is easy to say " Sega of America handled the Arcades and that's what really brought home the bacon." There's a massive overestimating of how much Sega of America really did and it always shows with contradictions in the hindsight of everything. Like for example if the Saturn was a console with no games, how was it a success in Japan with a sizable list of games when all was said and done? That also applies to if the system was to complex to dev games on it, how were games being made timely on it in japan? Why bother pushing for an add-on to enhance the genesis as if it were a new console, when you could just release a new console? These questions when looked at in hindsight shine a light toward SEGA of America more they do on Sega of Japan, and the only thing sound defense Sega of America has is the Saturn's asking price being to high. They still could have marketed it instead of the 32x, and worked out a way to get the Saturn down to a better selling price.
>>11441960>Like for example if the Saturn was a console with no games, how was it a success in Japan with a sizable list of games when all was said and done? That also applies to if the system was to complex to dev games on it, how were games being made timely on it in japan? Because many of those Japanese companies were still making 2D games. The Saturn is a fantastic 2D machine. It's like an upgraded and perfected Genesis when it comes to 2D. Developing 2D games for Saturn was easy. Many Japanese gaming studios were small to mid size gaming studios. They didn't have the spare resources and funds to pay for exporting their games to overseas countries. Not unless it was a massive hit and Sega of Japan was willing to cut them a deal with distribution. However the gaming trends across the world were pushing towards 3D development of games. Especially in North America and Europe. And 3D development of games was significantly harder (during the 1990s), much more expensive, required much more staff, and lastly needed twice as much time (compared to 2D) to make a 3D game. While the Saturn could *theoretically* do 3D, it was not designed with ease of 3D development in mind. Sega of Japan thought the future was still "2D games at home" , and 3D games at the arcade for a premium experience. So Saturn was geared towards 2D games at first. Then Sony announced the Playstation would be primarily focused on 3D games. Then Nintendo announced the same thing with Nintendo 64 focused on 3D. Sega of Japan had miscalculated the future of home gaming and panicked. SoJ hurriedly enhanced the Saturn last minute by adding additional hardware like additional Hitachi chips to help give Saturn more horsepower for 3D games. But this also significantly complicated development of 3D games for Saturn. Most programmers at the time had no idea how to program games for dual CPUs. Even Yu Suzuki, Sega Director of Virtua Fighter Arcade, said porting games to Saturn was very challenging.
>>11441960>Why bother pushing for an add-on to enhance the genesis as if it were a new console, when you could just release a new console?Unfortunately The decision and power to do this ultimately falls to Sega of Japan. They designed the Saturn in-house in Japan, and refused to incorporate suggestions from Sega of America and Sega of Europe. SoJ denied all other branches ideas such as cooperating with Western companies (IBM, 3dfx, Silicon Graphics, etc) for making chips to keep costs lower for Sega Saturn, partnering with Sony to keep hardware costs lower and to share profits, keeping the price within a certain limit, and pushing the release of Saturn to 1996 for Western markets.Ironically, Silicon Graphics partnered with Nintendo to make the Nintendo 64. Sony, after getting rejected from partnering with Nintendo and Sega, decided they would just make their own console by themselves. In addition, they used Western made chips to keep costs lower. I'm not going to get into whose idea was the Sega 32x. This board loves arguing about that. However what is indisputable is that there was a 2.5 to 3 year window between late 1993 to 1996 in the West where there was a gap when it came to console releases. Sega could of have made the Sega 32x a success in that window - if Sega Saturn was released in 1996 as requested by Sega of America and Sega of Europe. This was especially an issue for Sega of Europe because distribution of the Genesis had been delayed. Various countries in Europe didn't get Sega Genesis until 1993 and 1994. So for many Europeans, Genesis was still a new system.However Sega of Japan was dead set on releasing Sega Saturn in 1994 and beating Sony Playstation to the market. In hindsight this was a bad idea. Lack of games (besides Virtua Fighter), lack of available consoles, gaming studios weren't 100% ready yet, and lack of available Saturn development kits caused issues. This affected both America and Europe as well and hurt Sega's reputation.
>>11414665Sega = Tom KalinskeSega without Kalinske would have died 10 years earlier.
>>11442097Kalinske hard carried SEGA but his shoulders got tired during Saturn, then Peter Moore tried but SEGA was uncarriable but Peter Moore felt like he could carry some mofos so he carried hard Xbox 360 but we will discuss about it when 360 is an allowed topic here in /vr/, perhaps next year.
>>11422929I'm a huge fucking PS fan, but the last is unfortunately true. Phantasy Star's draw was a niche tech-fantasy setting that's rarely used to this day(only competition is star ocean and a handful of mostly unknown indies) and little touches like the sound of the music. Even non-square RPGs on the snes were doing most every other aspect better though.Doesn't stop with straight RPG either - tactics ogre was leaps and bounds ahead of shining force, despite all the sheer soul the latter had.The first part though, lol. SNES had some decent action games, but genesis shit all over it in the action/arcadey department. Only thing SNES really had that was absolute top-tier was Contra 3.
PlayStation just had better and more desirable games during the crucial turning point. I'm not sure why this topic is still worth writing essays about, when this is really the ultimate occam's razor answer.
>>11442162Not just that. Tom Kalinske said that Sony started poaching and hiring candidates from Sega of America. He said he lost a lot of his beat marketing employees to Sony. A big issue was that Sega of Japan put restrictions on Sega of America during the Saturn era. So the marketing team felt constrained. So they left for Sony. That's why Sony's marketing felt very similar to the early days of the Sega Genesis. A lot of in your face marketing that appealed to young teens and adults.Meanwhile Saturn hired a weird bald lady with rings around her head to film TV commercials promoting the Saturn. That's how bad Sega had fallen.
>>11442479>A big issue was that Sega of Japan put restrictions on Sega of America during the Saturn era. So the marketing team felt constrained. I think the problem occurred even early than that, not just Sega of Japan putting those restrictions on but Sega of America sticking so closely marketing what was safe and exploitable.
>>11442480My figure slipped I didn't mean to green text that.
>>11436686NOThey wanted FIFA, sport games, racing games, fighitng games with FMV endigns and action games. Your Marvel cinematic JRPG japanese vidya universe isn't real outside 4chan.
>>11414675There are heaps of games I would've bought if piracy wasn't so easy to do. That's hundreds if not thousands of dollars lost from just one customer. Always funny to see pirates try and equate some sort of moral argument to their desire to just not spend money. Like they're Robin Hood for copying files. Reeks of guilty conscience.
>>11415012>Saturn only has arcade ports>Americans don't want to play arcade ports like it's 1985>this is SoA's fault
>>11426573Consoles don't make money, the games do. Systems are sold at cost or at a loss, with all the profits being in software sales. One guy buying a million games is more profitable than a million guys buying one game each.
>>11443171Nintendo famously sells all their consoles for a profit. Nintendo is very strict about keeping costs down and using affordable hardware. Even if they don't sell a lot of consoles, they will still earn a small profit on each console sold.Sega Genesis was sold at a profit in North America and Europe. They saved money by using modified Arcade hardware and using Sonic to drive sales.But Saturn was sold at a loss. A big loss. Same with Dreamcast.
>>11443198Now, not back then. Prior to the Wii, Nintendo were at the forefront of console tech. The N64 and SNES were tech leaders. The GameCube bombing is what caused them to shift focus.
>>11443214Nope. There are documentaries and interviews where engineers who worked on the N64 said that Nintendo was obsessed with keeping the price down and affordable. Everything was strictly monitored. Even with Nintendo arguing back and forth about how few metal screws the N64 actually needed. Nintendo wanted even less and the design team said it wasn't possible without compromising the plastic case
>>11415019>https://www.segasaturnshiro.com/2023/07/10/irimajiri-clears-the-air-regarding-soa-saturn/It's almost as if you are jumping to conclusions in a biased manner. That's Irimajiri getting back at Kalinske and saving face, I'm not going to say SoA was without blunders, the 32x being one of them but, Irimajiri conviniently left out the bit about the Silicon Graphics blunder and the fact that before the Saturn there was already a heavy rupture between sega of japan and sega of america.
While the Sega 32X had the potential to do damage to the Saturn brand, in Japan the Mega Drive add-on was dismissed out of hand, and was killed within the year. Furthermore virtually all Mega Drive and Mega-CD game production ended on the Saturn's launch - while games continued to show until early 1996, it was clear these older consoles and add-ons were being sidelined. However, when Sega of America caught wind of Sony's PlayStation plans, Sega jumped the gun. According to Tom Kalinske: "We all knew PlayStation was coming so we wanted to pre-empt them. Japan basically ordered us to be on shelf in the Fall, [so] I thought up the surprise launch as a way of generating excitement and PR."[27] On stage at Sega's E3 1995 press conference in May 1995, Tom Kalinske announced that the Saturn (with six launch titles) would be available across the US immediately[28], surprising not only the show's audience, but developers and retailers too. In response, Sony took to the stage a few hours later with a $299 price tag for its PlayStation console (versus $399 for the Saturn, or $449 with Virtua Fighter[29]), beginning what was later seen as one of the most poorly planned console launches of all time.Fundementally, Sega did not have enough US consoles or games in stock to justify the early launch. The firm could only supply select retailers, prioritising Babbages, Electronics Boutique, Software Etc. and Toys 'R' Us[29], while in the process, alienating the likes of Kay-Bee Toys (which incidentally refused to stock the Saturn from this point onwards[30]). Furthermore it is thought no retailers made a profit from the $399 figure, relying solely on software sales[25] to make up the difference. https://segaretro.org/History_of_the_Sega_Saturn/Release
>>11444031Sega-16: It appears that time has vindicated you regarding your 1994 assessment that the 16-bit market was going to be viable well into 1996, and Nakayama seemed to have made the correct decision for Japan when he chose to discontinue everything in order to focus on the Saturn. However, do you think he should included America and Europe in his decision to discontinue the Genesis when it was still selling so well in those territories? Weren’t they sort of putting all of their eggs in one basket by rushing the Saturn out over the much more established Genesis?Tom Kalinske: Well, I felt that way. I felt that we were rushing Saturn. We didn’t have the software right, and we didn’t have the pricing right, so I felt we should have stayed with Genesis for another year. I recognize that our volumes would have gone down, but I think we would have been a much healthier company. We would have been more profitable, and I think the folks who appreciated video games would have appreciated that we were still doing a lot of great product on the 16-bit hardware.https://www.sega-16.com/2006/07/interview-tom-kalinske/
>>11444063[At the time], I also couldn’t get Japan to look at this chipset out of Silicon Graphics – well, they did eventually look at it. Jim Clark, who was chairman of Silicon Graphics at the time. He was the guy who later founded Netscape. He called me up, we knew each other, and he lived near me actually. He wanted us to look at a chipset that they had that they thought was perfect for a video game system. And of course, Silicon Graphics was a company that was very well known for having these very advanced computers for special effects and movie-making, and what have you. And so I went over there and his chief engineer was Jensen Huang, who later founded [NVIDIA]. Anyway, I looked at it and I thought it was really good, but we of course were not responsible for hardware, we were supposed to do whatever Japan told us to do and just worry about software.So I called up Nakayama-san and told him about what Silicon Graphics had, and he sent a team over to look at it. And they basically turned it down, saying that the chip was too hard to manufacture, it would have been too big of a chipset, and it would have had too much throw-off waste in the manufacturing process; it would have been too expensive. So that was the reason for not doing it. That same chip was later sold to Nintendo.https://www.timeextension.com/features/interview-former-sega-president-tom-kalinske-on-the-rise-and-fall-of-a-16-bit-empire
>>11442162It had better of everything, royalties, marketing, distribution, licensing, support...excepting hardware which was better in some ways, worse on others.
>>11444062>Japan basically ordered us to be on shelf in the FallWhy would they order this if they didnt make enough consoles? Foolish Sega Japan.
sega japan throwing a pissbaby fit over sega america using the nights engine to make a proper saturn sonic game
>>11414685What killed Dreamcast was the new policy introduced by the PS1, with a major localization in Europe, while Sega remained usually in the US or in Japan, ignoring the Europe market.
>let's dump millions on a softcore movie that we will end up canning, that's how the saturn can be saved
