I don't really understand the mindset of people who spend up to thousands just to play old consoles on a modern TV in razor sharp pixels. Like, don't get me wrong, original hardware is nice, but if that's what you're seeking you could even just get a high quality CRT like a Trinitron or something professional with RGB or Component, it would still probably be less in the long run. But okay, you want razor sharp pixels, so why are you wasting so much money on stuff like this? It's a cool novelty but at that point just emulate or use an FPGA machine or something, and many of these older systems have cycle accurate or near cycle accurate emulators available. This just seems like a weird sunk cost fallacy, and lets not get started with the mod boards and other fuckery just to make the picture slightly sharper. I get this appeals to hobbyists but I feel like hobbyists are just wasting their money at this point when there are far more reasonable investments in the retro market.
>>11445746>I don't really understand the mindset of people who spend up to thousands just to play old consoles on a modern TV in razor sharp pixels.It's not about razor sharp pixels, HDMI mods can already deliver that, even RGB mods or the native RGB output many of these consoles had in many cases. It's about these things being able to replicate the look of CRTs, in most cases the look of multiple different types and designs of CRTs on modern TVs. Usually these upscalers can't even take an RF or composite signal which is what many of these consoles were capable of without modding.The way I see it, CRTs have not been manufactured in over a decade, and the late ones sucked anyway. They aren't getting any newer, most of them were trashed when people transitioned over to HD flatscreens, and you either have to luck out with finding one or pay up with people charging way too much for these ancient screens. Plus they aren't getting any newer, more and more CRTs will fail over time. On top of all of this they are also big, heavy, use a lot of power and take a lot of space.I personally feel it makes a lot more sense to have a way to replicate what the games were intended to look like on modern screens. The current HDMI standards are going to be around for a long time considering you can just keep adding features to it (HDMI 2.2 just became a thing) while keeping the older standards, as are the current digital image formats TVs use, and their resolution standards. Modern TVs are also much lighter, use less power, and flat. By having way to replicate the CRT look these old games relied on using modern screens you can preserve that look on both modern screens and many newer screens for years to come rather than relying on decades old dying tech.
>>11445782But you can't really replicate a CRT, no? Mind you, their motion clarity and input latency still excels. And how is a CRT more cost prohibitive than this kind of thing? I do understand at least the argument that they're a dying technology, but I'm also not convinced digital displays can fully replicate those quirks
>>11445782And even them, how does that differ from using CRT filters in RetroArch, then?
>>11445782By the time crts are an impossible asset to make use of, these gadgets will have become massively cheaper.
>>11445746I like the razor sharp pixel look. In my area, there's no BVMs nor PVMs available as those are concentrated in the California and New York areas, and there's no cost effective method to safely deliver those to the middle of nowhere. I do have a DE-10 nano that I enjoy emulating games on, but I also get joy from utilizing the systems I've kept from my youth. These things won't last as no one around here can do such complicated repairs of old electronics like CRTs or original systems, so it is there to help keep things going especially in a difficult economy with unaffordable housing. It is useful for streaming games with its high compatibility for many devices/resolutions/refreshes which hopefully can add revenue to offset and partially subsidize a small percentage in the cost of rent.
>>11445854>complicated repairs of old electronics like CRTsMost CRTs don't require complicated repairs, though. And you don't need a PVM either, though those are certainly interesting, but there are good consumer models with component
Is the Morph 4K worth it? The MiSTer's in-built CRT filters are very lacking, especially given it maxes out at 1080p (there's 1440p but it has issues)The Morph is $275 which is a much nicer ask that 750 and as well as finding free CRTs isn't a thing in my area anymore, literally every CRT listed everywhere is some shitty off brand monitor/consumer set that's mono composite only priced like a Sony Trinitron because apparently everyone knows what they have,>inb4 just emulateMy current setup plays everything I enjoy playing and the latency is much nicer.
>>11445893Unfortunately, the ones I have need repair. It just so happen to be that the only ones around me all need repairs. I don't exactly need a PVM, but I sure do want a PVM.
>>11445746it's the best of all worlds. you get no flaws or glitches because you're not emulating, or any of the hassle of running them, and not having to need a powerful PC or fpga to do it. you get great scanlines like a crt, or pvm bvm of your choice, and you don't need to own two televisions. and you get the cleaner sharper high res look that you only get from an emulators, that makes 3d games look great. and with custom cables you can run all your consoles optimally.me personally I really do it because I don't want to emulate and have access to every single game ever made. I think having so much choice is a nightmare. and you inevitably just value your games less and spend less time playing one single game. many such cases.
>>11445962Fair enough, a PVM would be nice, I just think that a lot of later model Sony Trinitrons are already plenty sharp and clean
>>11445975>me personally I really do it because I don't want to emulate and have access to every single game ever madePersonally I like flash carts and other types of game loaders, but I get what you mean, they just save in the long run I think
>>11445803This is a dead argument now. the retrotinks input lag in system lock mode is 4ms. and modern oleds now have the motion clarity of a crt. I think the things that a crt still excels at now is geometry and color saturation.
>>11446000 I'll concede on the first point but>and modern oleds now have the motion clarity of a crt.I don't know about that, though BFI certainly helps (and to be clear, I don't think OLED has bad motion to begin with)>I think the things that a crt still excels at now is geometry and color saturation.Geometry? Why? Color saturation? Yeah, maybe. OLED might have more realistic colors but CRT colors just really pop in this organic way.
>>11445926It works just fine, I don't really have any complaints besides the fact that PixelFX still hasn't released the analog bridge. I hope they do so soon because I have a what feels like a dying Retrotink 5x.I think maybe you could use the 4kgamerpro, which is like an Mclassic except the fact that it upscales to 4k with a focus on sharpening for $130 max. But that has its own problems, since it will only upscale devices that output 1080p, nothing lower or higher IIRC. And you can't really do much to configure the sharpening outside of 3 settings, which in Youtube videos has some ugly artifacts for older games.
>>11445803>But you can't really replicate a CRT, no?You can replicate it's image pretty well with a decent upscaler and 4K screen, to the point where you would need to be right against the screen with a magnifying glass to see a difference.> their motion clarity and input latency still excelsFrom my understanding a CRT can still have a lower input latency, but there are LCD screens now which are so close that it's not perceivable by humans and well below human reaction time. Mind you, there are also many shitty LCD TVs out there that are much worse, especially if you just take your 30 year old console and connect it directly to the TV through composite without anything else or adjusting the set in any way. But with a good upscaler and TV you can definitely have a comparable experience to a CRT.>And how is a CRT more cost prohibitive than this kind of thing?Unless you luck out many CRTs are three figures now, and that's the crappy and tiny ones, a good bigger one can cost considerably more (have fun with the shipping charges)... assuming you even have the space for it, and it's going to be a used decades old device that likely needs maintenance like capacitor replacement. The tubes don't last forever either.>>11445807I am hoping for that, because as much as I would love to get one of these, the price is honestly absurd. Doesn't help that the only competition it WOULD have had, the OSSC, decided to just silently give up making their 4K version.>>11445854>These things won't last as no one around here can do such complicated repairs of old electronics like CRTsAnd then there is the whole those things can kill you if you don't know what you're doing.>>11445893I understand that PVMs are significantly higher quality than most consumer CRTs due to what they were meant to be used for, but wouldn't using one defeat the entire point since the image (Especially if you use a type of RGB) would be too clear to make use of the effects the consoles intended?
>>11446498>Unless you luck out many CRTs are three figures nowYou'd think the kind of people who have any interest in nostalgia-laden retro gaming would've just kept their old CRTs.I mean it's been what, less than 20 years since flat panels started being commonplace? The current retro gaming craze really got its start when shitty NES games made it big with early internet videos circa 2006, but flat panel sales didn't take over CRTs until late 2007.
>>11446498>Unless you luck out many CRTs are three figures now, and that's the crappy and tiny ones, a good bigger one can cost considerably moreYou're not wrong that good CRTs now can go for a good few hundred nowadays, but I don't know if that investment is more expensive than like external scalers and console mods combined. It really depends on a bunch of stuff, and obviously local will be considerably cheaper than like eBay, but obviously not everyone has that option. I just have mine from a family member, lol>I understand that PVMs are significantly higher quality than most consumer CRTs due to what they were meant to be used for, but wouldn't using one defeat the entire point since the image (Especially if you use a type of RGB) would be too clear to make use of the effects the consoles intended?I guess? I have a Sony Trinitron consumer model, an FS210. Really the upgrade to S-Video or component is just so clean and sharp that I don't mind a few effects such as dithering being a bit less convincing. I don't think it's as big of a deal as some people will say, though I can understand someone wanting to use an older CRT with only composite at least if absolute purism is what they're looking for.
>>11446591>You'd think the kind of people who have any interest in nostalgia-laden retro gaming would've just kept their old CRTs.The thing is I don't think most people realized what they had until it was too late. And realistically most people weren't using CRTs for that at the time. I'm too young for that kind of nostalgia, but I still take an interest in retro stuff nonetheless
>>11445746>in razor sharp pixelsThis is where your misunderstanding comes from. That was the case in the days of the framemeister and ossc, but I don't think this is what the majority of people want anymore. They want their flatscreen to look like an arcade monitor or some other high-quality CRT.I personally also want a way to make composite video look acceptable on a flatscreen, which really only seems possible with CRT effects.I can't afford these devices though. Even the retrotink 5x is too much for me, so I have done just what you suggested and got some cheap CRTs, but as others have said I don't think that will be a viable option for much longer and then these sorts of devices will seem more necessary to the average person.
^^^^^^^^^All these words are dumb and gay. Just use one of these.
>>11445782>Using CRT shaders, for free:|>Using CRT shaders, for $750:D
>>11445807>he thinks these things are expensive because of how much they cost to make and not because it's a niche product with few to no alternatives so they can set their price to whatever they wantIf anything the cost will go up.
>>11446770t.input lag enjoyer
>>11446862Your foreskinless dick has input lag.
>>11446770These converters basically fuck everything up, you're essentially getting a 240p composite image probably misinterpreted as 480i by the converter, upscaled with some shitty blur, then your TV will have to deinterlace it resulting in significant motion blur, not to mention the probably terrible input lag too. At the very least if you're hellbent on using a modern TV at least get an S-Video cable and a Retrotink 2x or something
>>11447182Hmm… no I think you’re wrong.
trvthnvke
>>11445746No one is forcing you to buy it, if you prefer emulators or FPGA then go ahead and use those.
>>11447471I didn't say they were, I just said it seems like a sunk cost fallacy
I didnt think the 4K had enough "extras" to justify the cost, and I'm not a huge tinkerer (ironically). If the game looks good that's all I need.But I got the 5x and I love it. Makes PS2 look crisp as fuck on my 55 inch 4k.
>>11447549Same. The 5x can do 1440p and that scales nicely if your tv supports it. My brother got me a crt so i dont really use it the scaler anymore. Its a nice backup solution
>>11446591>You'd think the kind of people who have any interest in nostalgia-laden retro gaming would've just kept their old CRTs.Like they say, hindsight is 20/20, I would have held on to many things if I knew there would be a stupid resurgence like this. Nobody was looking at CRTs when LCDs started taking over and thought "Man, these are so nostalgic and older games look better" while holding onto them, they were being tossed into landfills by the thousands.That being said, it wasn't just a obsolete thing, CRTs like I mentioned take up a considerable amount of room and are heavy. Being able to just hand a flat TV on a wall was a pretty big game changer for many, and made hanging onto those large heavy CRTs not worth a second thought back then. Even now, most CRTs you see people use are tiny 13/14 inch sets, not the 25 or larger main sets people used to have. I actually still have ONE left, which originally my family tried to toss away, but I am not sure if it even works anymore. It's too big and heavy to even try to use it again without a lot of help, another reason I think it's better to try to adapt retro consoles to modern screens than attempt to keep old screens around. Even if I had a PVM I don't want to play games on a tiny screen.>>11446593>You're not wrong that good CRTs now can go for a good few hundred nowadays, but I don't know if that investment is more expensive than like external scalers and console mods combined.The price really is absurd, I agree. $750 is insane, maybe if it was maximum $450 it would be somewhat reasonable. No doubt the price is inflated since there is practically no competition in the field of 4K upscalers. Though, it's going to be very hard to pay less than that to get a good CRT that is 30+ inches, while a 50 inch 4K HDTV can be had for under $200 these days. In fact, it's hard to find a decent HDTV that's not at least 40 inches. While now with CRTs it's hard to find one above 14 inches that doesn't cost a fortune.
>>11446770I have a retrotink 5x with a bunch of custom cables and honestly i don't think I give a shit or ever did. I was sucked into the attitude at the time that by law you have to have one of these and use rgb.
Anyone else using the midrange options here? It's always richfags using retrotink 5X/4K or the cheapest crap like >>11446770
>>11447749>Framemeister>MidrangeMaybe the GBS-C could be considered midrange but anything above $200 for a scaler is expensive. That said... I love me some ebay extron gear.
>>11445746they're told they're not supposed to have a CRT so they don'tit's like how you don't wear comfy skirts
>>11446591Even through the early/mid 2010s you could get a number of PVM models for relatively cheap, especially if you targeted things outside of Sony. Even some larger pro sets, like NEC's XM/XP 29"ers could be had for a few hundred, as opposed to the $1k-2k that they apparently sell for nowadays. The idea of paying much more than maybe $20 for basically any standard consumer set was pretty foreign. Then of course they caught on with a wider audience, the supply pool dried up, and nice sets found homes with people who actually wanted them, causing prices to skyrocket and people to start paying actual money for tiny kitchen TVs that would've been lucky to fetch $5 8 years ago. You have to keep in mind that every day more and more people from Gen Z, which has a combination of people who have their own nostalgia for the technology and those who have vicarious desire for it due to online culture and influencers, reach a point where they can afford to buy this kind of stuff, and probably had no agency to simply save these things themselves (their parents had already either thrown away, donated, or sold off their old CRTs to the earlier wave of Millennial collectors).
>>11447801>probably had no agency to simply save these things themselves I'm 22, my Trinitron is actually from my grandma, hah
>>11447836based
>>11445782>The way I see it, CRTs have not been manufactured in over a decade, and the late ones sucked anyway. They aren't getting any newer, most of them were trashed when people transitioned over to HD flatscreens, and you either have to luck out with finding one or pay up with people charging way too much for these ancient screens. Plus they aren't getting any newer, more and more CRTs will fail over time. On top of all of this they are also big, heavy, use a lot of power and take a lot of space.You are being ignorant and overdramatic. Just a bunch of excuses, whining and coping. People are happy to pay $500+ for a modern screen that's been planned to crap out in a span of about 10 years. These old CRTs are decades old and are still going strong. There are still many skilled CRT techs out there who can repair and revamp your TV for $150-300 depending on the model and condition. A fully restored CRT done by a professional is gonna be about $200-$500, which is an excellent value. That process will breathe another three or four decades into it simply because it's not going to be the primary viewing screen (probably), which brings up an excellent point. These are not turned on all day pumping out PBS and Fox. They're sitting on a sturdy piece of furniture and getting played from time to time in someone's battle station. I guarantee you are overlooking loads of personal behaviors that waste energy anyway. One man can easily move a 27" CRT all by himself. Once you get to about 32", then the pool of men that can easily move it solo does diminish, yet so does the pool of CRTs in that size. A 20"x20" footprint is really not tough to work with unless you are some kind of useless mouth breather with no handy skills. Not only do you get to play your old vidya hassle free and in excellent quality, but you get access to a shitton of other vintage media like VHS, which are super cheap, plentiful and loaded with high quality content.
>>11447836Nice. I'm in my 30s, and unfortunately the TVs of my youth were either given or thrown away. I still have my Sony TV from high school, but it's a flat tube, which isn't really my favorite when it comes to console gaming. I keep it as a backup, and because it's just sitting in my bedroom, not in the way if anything.
>>11447891Yeah, people still restore consumer sets from the earliest days of televisions, and heavily used arcade monitors from the 80s are still readily serviceable. A lot of the failure-prone parts are basic electronics components which will most likely continue to be produced throughout all of our lifetimes. The bigger problem comes when something more unique like the flyback transformer fails, in which case you either need to find an old working one, or hope that there's a newly manufactured compatible replacement (some of which can be of spotty quality).
>>11447836I got one 27" Trinitron from my father-in-law (wife's a cougar) and another 27" Trinitron from my dad. The in-laws asked me to get rid of it, but I swiped it instead. I told my dad to hold onto the other one because it's worth a lot of money and he did. It's a newer model with component and s-video and it has a lot of life left in it. I always see tons of ads on CL and FB Marketplace for CRTs. Many of them are free, you just gotta pick 'em up. Some of them have been like 36"-40" or more, yet totally free.
>>11446591Our parents got rid of our CRTs when we moved out. It is what it is.
>>11447891>You are being ignorant and overdramatic. Just a bunch of excuses, whining and coping.You are being shallow and pedantic.>People are happy to pay $500+ for a modern screen that's been planned to crap out in a span of about 10 yearsAll of my LCD TVs are at least 10 years if not twice that and still working. Also, shocker, people will pay a lot for a good quality modern TV. Just like people did for CRT sets years ago.>These old CRTs are decades old and are still going strongFunny, a large number of the CRTs, unlike the LCD TVs, have been all having problems, especially these days when they are several decades old. There is no reversing wear to the tube itself>There are still many skilled CRT techs out there who can repair and revamp your TV for $150-300 depending on the model and conditionSo get a crappy 14 inch screen for $100-200+, or considerably more for a larger screen, and then drop another $150-300 for repairs of dying tech (they sure as fuck can't repair the tube itself if it's going) or attempt to get my systems on modern tech that will be usable for any new screens that come for many years. Wow, what a tough choice.> A fully restored CRT done by a professional is gonna be about $200-$500, which is an excellent value.Up to $500 for an ancient ass heavy dying screen sounds like the worst value possible>Not your primary screenAnd many people have more than one TV or viable screen in their home, you can even use a computer monitor, which is still going to likely be larger than such a small CRT. There will be no shortage of cheap modern screens if one dies out.>VHSAnd upscalers work on those too. The only VHS tapes I care about now are ones I personally recorded of family events. I don't care for a degrading copy of a random movie I copied off Blockbuster 30 years ago when I can get it on disk today for a few bucks. As for those family movies, I would rather rip them to digital than let them degrade further with every playthrough.
>>11447963>I would rather rip them to digital than let them degrade further with every playthrough.Protip, use Staxrip and QTGMC if you do so for deinterlacing if you need to do that. It's probably the best deinterlacing algorithm available on PC.
>>11447749I use a RAD2x for my Genesis (They also have good chink clones of these that use the same software)I can't be bothered with a CRT and this still gives a nice picture without added input lag
>>11447963>Don't mind me, I will continue to be an ignorant and whiny little bitch about it. Kek. What a joke. I bet this is a Fox and the Grapes situation for you. You are probably mad that you can't get and manage a nice CRT because you don't know how to get one for free, you couldn't lift one by yourself because you're a weak little faggot and you don't have any place or ability to set one up in the place you live, which you probably don't even own yourself. We get it. You have shit taste; you like digital slop and can't appreciate the beauty of analog. Save us the trouble next time and before you hit post remind yourself you're a faggot with nothing interesting to say, then walk away and go look at your special LCD TVs.
>>11447749I've had an OSSC for years now. Not the best for 480i but I just use a modded BC PS3 or a CRT for PS2.
>>11448478>Ignoring everything because you can't see past your CRT-tinted glassesAgain, I have a CRT, so no, not a Fox and Grapes situation. I honestly think it's more viable in the long run to look for ways to make consoles continue to display the best intended image on modern displays than to cling to decades old ones that are just going to become more and more scarce and break down more and more, again, to say nothing of their size and weight while still having screens smaller than a cheap modern TV.You sound incredibly scared and insecure that your precious CRT which you clearly invested far too much money in might not be the end-all with such upscalers and are desperately lashing out with pathetic insults since you have nothing of actual substance or logic to post. It's pretty pathetic really how quickly you went from almost sounding like you had points to make to completely crumbling into a autistic jibbering mess that can do nothing more than hurl gradeschool level insults in that last post.I get it, you are scared, no need to lash out though, nobody is taking your CRT away from you. Nobody except time that is, it's too heavy for anyone to give a shit about physically taking it away from you, tick tock.
I plug the yellow white and red cables into the tv and I play the video game.
>>11445746that's why I got a retrotink5k for a little over $300still ridiculously expensive especially for how light and plasticy it feels and the mismatched generic remote but that's just how it goesI don't find that upscaled 1080p looks significantly worse than native 4k when dealing with such low res inputs anywayif you're viewing from a normal couch's distance the difference is essentially imperceptible
>>11447749The Retrotink 2X when I had it was perfectly fine for retro consoles, its just not the best for PS2 consoles unless you use the smoothing filter. That said its hard not to recommend the clones on Aliexpress instead, Mike Chi I think raised the price by $15 dollars over the years and that's just overkill considering the lack of software updates it had.
>>11447749Define midrange, Morph 4K is $275 which is significantly cheaper than the Tink 4K and arguably the cheapest you're going to get a 4K scaler. If you just want 1080p and play anything that isn't gen 6 and above I'd argue just get a MiSTer and you'll get a multisystem game box at 1080p with low latency, a cleaner setup and the ability to use original controller as well as modern ones if that's your thing. $185 when they go back in stock.
>>11446591>You'd think the kind of people who have any interest in nostalgia-laden retro gaming would've just kept their old CRTs.I'm pretty sure they were like 6 years old at the time their family owned CRTs and didn't really have the authority to keep something their parents thought was junk. Only 20 years later when they (hopefully) have become fully functional adults do they have the time and money to actually buy what they couldn't during childhood.It's like expecting 6 year olds to start thinking about what the job market will be like when by the time they turn 18.
I will only consider one of these overpriced devices for pixel counting autists if my next TV doesn't have a composite input.This is all that's left, like a vestigial tail.
OSSC cost 150 eurosand to me its all about conveniencenewer HD televisions dont have Scart input anymore.i have 8 piece Hydra Scart switich and its great to have all those 8 consoles behind 1 HDMI.
>>11450943The higher end ones are only HDMI and Toslink, so you may as well prepare. Don't cheap out if you're sensitive to input lag.
>>11450943I would love for you to plug a SNES into one of these composite ports and see firsthand the abomination that you're in for. Then we'll see who you call an autist.
>>11450943Do you have any idea how bad the native composite and even component inputs for anything below 720p are on modern sets? Get a CRT if you don't want an upscaler, but it's going to be a blurry and laggy mess if you just directly plug a composite console into a modern set.
>>11451873>Get a CRT if you don't want an upscaler, but it's going to be a blurry and laggy mess if you just directly plug a composite console into a modern set.vouch
This is the only acceptable way to play retro games.
>>11445746
>>11451972>the only reason I don't emulate is because I don't have tooto*Also you're a retard
>>11446770I had to go to gamestop to get my nephew a gift and they were selling one of these for $40 lol. Then the moddle age lady working the counter kept hitting on me after the 3 high schoolers she was hitting on up and bailed.
CRT: $10 (thrift)VCR: $5 (thrift)Genesis: $40 (local shop)Run console into VCR into TV just like we did back in the day.Save $700+Why does it need to be any more complicated?
>>11452715Yes. I’m sure you’re getting a CRT for $10.
>>11452719The last one I got was $12.The one prior was a few bucks.Gotta get out of the city.
I don't care what anyone says -- logically $750 for a scaler makes no sense -- I still think this would be an awesome thing to have especially if you have an OLED. I have not purchased a Retrotink (or any scaler) because I have a nice CRT, but from what I've seen it looks like an amazing product. It's the price of a plane ticket to Japan right now. You do the math.
>>11452737OP here, I agree. It's a cool product and would be nice to have but it's completely impractical price wise
>>11445854>signfaggot is a retardNo surprise there.
>>11452737I feel like the retrotink is priced for people who are already multiple 10s of thousands deep into this stuff. $750 is nothing at that point.
>>11452719For 10€, 100%. With a little luck, you even get a good one (Loewe, Sony, etc)
>>11451730>>11451873Works on my machineSorry that I don't count pixels like you nerds
>>11450943this a very sensible optionI recently played through metroid prime trilogy on the wii like this
>>11445854I wish playing these games brought me joy but for whatever reason, it makes me sad. Every time. I spend hours tinkering with configs and cores and finally when I'm all done I play them for a few minutes, reminisce, and realize I'm running out of time to do something meaningful with my life.
>>11453314bait>>11453370I think really this can be the issue with having too many options
>>11453370>I'm running out of time to do something meaningful with my life.
>>11453370If you didn't do anything meaningful by 25 you were never going to
>>11446000>modern oleds now have the motion clarity of a crtThey don't, and it's unlikely they ever well. Even with BFI the persistence is much higher than CRTs.
>>11446591>>11446593CRTs will eventually need repair work even if they just sit unplugged and doing nothing. The caps and other electrical bits need to be replaced every 12 to 20 years depending on the model of CRT.And the tubes (the glass screen where the image is displayed) is basically just a "giant light bulb" that displays images. Its impossible to repair and will burn itself out eventually just like a regular light bulb.One day you will turn on you CRT and the tube won't respond. Or as time passes, the screen will become dimmer and the colors will fade until you can't see anything much anymore. At that point, the CRT tube is useless.The only way to save CRTs is to manufacture new tubes (Or have warehouses full of thousands of spare tubes). But nobody seriously does that anymore. I think Panasonic was last CRT factory to shut down. China claims they make new tubes but I do not believe that for a second. No one can verify China's claims because they require minimum orders of like 300 Chinese CRT TVs just for China to take you seriously. Nobody is going to do that just to check the quality of CHINA CRTs.So yeah. All CRT tubes will eventually fail. Unless you have Elon Musk money and open your own CRT factory.
>>11453314>Works on my machinePeople who say things like that are the same kind of people who try to justify there being nothing wrong with picrel because "It works"
>>11453775No, that guy is right and doesn’t spend $500 on a pixel box for virgins.
>>11453971Notice I didn't say that an expensive upscaler was the only option, cry some more with your lagfest shit setup.
>>11453703Which really raises the question as to why. OLED seems to excel in almost every area except for that (and resolution switching)But why? Is there an alternative to sample and hold? Obviously there's BFI but as you said it still has its drawbacks. I know the vast majority of people don't care about this considering how niche this issue is, but I'm legitimately curious if there's a better way. >>11453728This is true unfortunately. But I still stand by that for now they're probably the best choice for retro games. And if you take good care of them they can still last for a very long time.
>>11453996>(and resolution switching)Isn't resolution switching dependent entirely on the controller board itself and not the actual panel? The panels themselves don't receive signals in terms of resolution or any video standard, they just get told which pixels to light up and what color, if you are trying to display a 720p image on a 1080p panel, it's the controller board that has to convert that to 1080p, it doesn't send a 720p signal to the panel itself and the panel somehow converts it to 1080p. The best OLED panel in the world will still have crap response if the controller board it's attached to is garbage.>But I still stand by that for now they're probably the best choice for retro games. And if you take good care of them they can still last for a very long time.Personally I still feel it's a better idea to try to replicate their look as closely as we can on modern screens than to try to hold onto older CRTs, they won't be around forever and the sooner we put more effort into replicating them than just holding onto 30+ year old screens the faster the tech will advance in perfecting it as well as lowering the price.TV manufacturers sure as hell aren't going to care, they tune their TVs for the sake of streaming movies and watching sports, even modern games are an afterthought for most sets, much less retro games with all their CRT quirks.
>>11454068>if you are trying to display a 720p image on a 1080p panel, it's the controller board that has to convert that to 1080pI moreso meant that due to the analog nature of CRTs they can support multiple resolutions natively without the need for scaling, meaning things like switching resolutions can be handled instantaneously because there's no extra processing, it's all analog.>Personally I still feel it's a better idea to try to replicate their look as closely as we can on modern screens than to try to hold onto older CRTs, they won't be around forever and the sooner we put more effort into replicating them than just holding onto 30+ year old screens the faster the tech will advance in perfecting it as well as lowering the price.I suppose. I just wish that we could get all of the benefits on a modern display.
Furthermore really wouldn't be an issue if modern TVs and monitors had integer scaling built in that preserved the sharpness of the pixels. It astonishes me that this is not an option on any modern TV that I know of unless you're using an external scaler.
>>11454150>switching resolutions can be handled instantaneouslyCRTs take a second or so to re-synchronize to the the new resolution.
>>11454363Is this for CRT monitors like PC monitors? Because I would think that would be a more software thing. But on my experience with like a CRT TV, there is literally no wait if a game switches between 240p and 480i. It's not noticeable, it's insant
>>11454150>I moreso meant that due to the analog nature of CRTs they can support multiple resolutions natively without the need for scaling, meaning things like switching resolutions can be handled instantaneously because there's no extra processing, it's all analog.True, though it was still possible to attempt a resolution or refresh rate the TV could not handle, which would either result in a mess or a blank image.That being said, games very rarely if ever switched resolutions mid-gameplay like that. Usually the resolution switch was when you was opening a menu or it was about to display a FMV or a (at the time) high-res still image or so, and while older upscalers could take a second or two to adjust, modern ones only lose something like 3 or so frames I believe when switching. Considering that's generally switching from gameplay to a menu or so, the delay isn't really impacting the player in any meaningful way. Many of the games even faded the screen when switching resolutions anyway.>I suppose. I just wish that we could get all of the benefits on a modern display.I wish we could too, but no manufacturer cares or even will care.>>11454154>Furthermore really wouldn't be an issue if modern TVs and monitors had integer scaling built in that preserved the sharpness of the pixels. It astonishes me that this is not an option on any modern TV that I know of unless you're using an external scaler.Analog TV signals didn't really work in terms of pixels, they were just an analog stream of the image, there was no defined pixels in the signal itself to do integer scaling on. I wish we could get crystal clear integer scaling too, but that's not how the signals worked. Also, you generally don't want that with some games, that's whole point of modern upscalers, they can replicate the faults in the signals/screens to replicate effects like the waterfalls in Sonic that pixel-perfect integer scaling would not reproduce.
>>11445746Emulation is the answer, RetroTINK-4K shilling OP.
do these upscalers have CRT shaders too? I've recently discovered those in emulators (recently got devices that can do it) and I am fascinated by them. I want something that can put CRT shaders on my real hardware though, and I don't use anything higher than S-video, so maybe it's a wash. Perhaps I will have to actually do something as dumb as pay money for a boat anchor, which I have not done since the 2000s despite having several different tubes in the last 15+ years. To be there is no point paying money for them; It should be a public service to get rid of them. But maybe I am just stuck in 2012.
>>11454443Yes, that's somewhat the whole point of making a 4K version, not so you can see every integer-scaled pixel of an NES game in 4K instead of 1080p, but because more resolution means you can more accurately attempt to re-create CRT effects through such filters.
>>11454443>do these upscalers have CRT shaders too?Some do. But not all of them. ReteoTink 4K does have several CRT shader options you can play with. And you can make your own custom setting.
>>11454420There's only a delay if the refresh rate changes. 240p and 480i have the same refresh rate so there's no delay. I think consoles from the CRT era all run at fixed refresh rate.
This bullshit isn't playing games. Either you played your childhood game, realized ROMs can't bring back the feeling of being served uncrustables and not having responsibilities, and are copesick. Or you're so consumed by consumerism and gadget autism that you'll take any excuse to buy shit.We played buggy games on shitty screens and we were happy.
>>11454545Its just an upscaler bro...
>>11445746The sound of a CRT flyback is kryptonite to zoomers.
>>11454429>Analog TV signals didn't really work in terms of pixels, they were just an analog stream of the image, there was no defined pixels in the signal itself to do integer scaling on. I wish we could get crystal clear integer scaling too, but that's not how the signals worked. Also, you generally don't want that with some games, that's whole point of modern upscalers, they can replicate the faults in the signals/screens to replicate effects like the waterfalls in Sonic that pixel-perfect integer scaling would not reproduce.Yeah, I get that much, that it was a line based system, not a pixel one. However when a modern TV takes an analog signal, it obviously has to interpret that data digitally and spit it out, which is what I mean, discrete scalers do that. Also I was under the assumption that those scalers used some form of integer scaling while also offering options like scanline filters as a form of postprocessing on the image
>>11454986The funny thing is I'm only in my 20s and I can't even hear it, never could.
>>11454986Man, I remember walking into my school's computer lab and instantly being able to tell which monitors were still left on despite all the computers themselves being turned off. I doubt I can still do that anymore.>>11455005>However when a modern TV takes an analog signal, it obviously has to interpret that data digitally and spit it out, which is what I mean, discrete scalers do that.Yes, but my point was that the data is not coming in as pixels, so integer scaling would be very unreliable because it's not getting pixels to scale, it's just getting a fuzzy approximation from the analog signal that basically says "It's sort of reddish here, it's blueish there" etc, not "red pixel at 18,96, blue pixel at 27,46". Try to pigeonhole that analog signal into discrete pixels and you are going to get a fuzzy image where a pixel might be bouncing around between the boundaries of one or the other, might be too big, or too small, etc. And then if you perform integer scaling on that it's going to come out looking even worse. It's quite a bit different than if you HDMI-modded your NES which will output clean discrete pixels.
>>11455106I mean for modern TVs with their standard built-in capabilities? Sure, I get that. But on the topic of this thread, it's not as if external scalers aren't capable of doing so sharply, I just think it depends on the input. If you're using for example component or RGB, an analog to digital conversion will usually be very clean and very sharp because the analog signal has little interference, compared to lets say a composite signal which will scale much worse. Of course, there will inevitably be some signal loss with the console converting the digital signal to analog, then the scaler converting the analog signal back to digital. And I think most people using these kinds of scalers end up using expensive cables anyway.
>>11451972>duct hunt
>>11452719Go to garage sales and keep an eye open. Ask older people to ask around. Just inform your entire friends and family circles that you need an old TV.$50 max.
>>11452715This is the ONLY way to go if you really give a fuck about an authentic experience. There was no fucking HDTV when these games were programmed and enjoyed. They will always look like fucking garbage on any modern display. Add scanlines, correct for the aspect ratio, do whatever you want... it's never going to look right. It's never going to feel right. And if you didn't live it already you'll never understand anyway and should just stick to modern shit you understand. Go to an arcade to enjoy the past or buy analog equipment to run it on. It's better to emulate old games through a CRT if you can do that. Not everyone can afford the systems and cartridges of yesteryear, but the TVs are within any budget if you get off your ass and look.
>>11452715These prices don't exist anymore for most of the country. So consider yourself lucky.>CRT: $10 (thrift) damn why is color off and the brightness weird? >VCR: $5 (thrift) crap it ate my VHS tape. Just like the old days. >Genesis: $40 (local shop) my local theft shop priced their Genesis close to original retail price Unless some company decides to make VCRs and CRTs again, the prices are just going to go up and up. CRTs are breaking every day. VCRs need maintenance too.
>>11452715>into vcr into TVNo thanks.
>>11455236>This is the ONLY way to go if you really give a fuck about an authentic experience. Compromises must be made. It's been 20 years since the last CRT factory closed down. This stuff breaks down over time. They were never meant to last this long. >There was no fucking HDTV when these games were programmed and enjoyed. They will always look like fucking garbage on any modern display. I worked at an arcade. We replaced our old CRT screens on many of the games. I love the original authentic look. But They were old, unreliable, and kept breaking. The rest of the hardware held up well, but those CRT screens just kept breaking down. It was a constant battle keeping those CRTs running and diagnosing the problems. We used a Unico Phoenix series 26 inch LCD which is 4:3 replacement LCD arcade monitor. The only 4:3 monitor on the market. Works great. >Add scanlines, correct for the aspect ratio, do whatever you want... it's never going to look right. It's never going to feel right.Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Daytona USA, Sega Rally, and a ton of other retro games look great on LCD.
>>11455236No.It’s fine on a modern screen through an emulator. I got rid of my last CRT in 2006. I lived it and see no value in pretending that the experience feels substantially different on the old hardware.Emulation is just that good. It’s a miracle.I also won’t use scanlines or filters.Looking sharp.>>11452715> Run console into VCR into TV just like we did back in the day.Now this was a bad idea unless you had to even then.
I know this may upset some ultra-purists but component/RGB on a CRT (depending on where you are) is just so much better than composite. Even just S-Video is a big upgrade. And look if you want the shittiest experience possible for nostalgia sake, sure, whatever. But I'd rather it not look like absolute piss, of course perfection isn't the point, but still..
>>11455365>raw pixelseew faggot, no. I thought games like DKC just looked like shit now until I threw up some scanlines and rgb shader and its beautiful now. raw pixels are the worst
>>11455414Never.I simply do not care.Looking sharp.
>>11454154Black bars are for some reason considered a grave sin by the average consumer, so much so that they don't mind stretching or cropping old stuff just so that they could use up all of their screen, even if it cuts out important details. Also it seems that only video game enthusiasts and people who use a TV as their main monitor care about crisp pixels and sharp images, even so called film buffs don't mind Vaseline Vision, or as it's more commonly known bilinear scaling, ruining their films. At least there's a ghetto way of getting Integer scaling by using the dot-for-dot, or however they call the unscaled profile and just applying zoom to it, if your TV has custom zoom values that is.
>>11445804>And even them, how does that differ from using CRT filters in RetroArch, then?It doesn't. The difference is you spent $750, and that you're a fucking dumbass with too much disposable income.
>>11454451>>11454453cool. Probably a dumb question, but i assume these have tons of unreliable shills because of the price; Are there reputable reviews or demos out there to show what they can do? Hopefully someone that isn't just getting paid off by the makers.
>>11455134>I just think it depends on the input. If you're using for example component or RGB, an analog to digital conversion will usually be very clean and very sharp because the analog signal has little interference, compared to lets say a composite signal which will scale much worse.Well yes, though those are still analog signals, but they will fare a lot better. Don't forget also though that videogames are an afterthought and TV manufacturers almost exclusively tune their sets for broadcast TV and movies, which would not fare well with integer scaling.Even if they cared about games, they are going to tune them for modern consoles, not retro ones, which again would mean not bothering with integer scaling.Add on to of that, most retro consoles could not output beyond composite or s-video at best without 3rd party modifications being soldered on. As they say, garbage in, garbage out, if you are expecting a clean signal then even a $750 upscaler can only do so much if you plug a composite cable into it.>>11455236>They will always look like fucking garbage on any modern display. Add scanlines, correct for the aspect ratio, do whatever you want... it's never going to look right. It's never going to feel right.This is just copium at this point. If you prefer CRTs fine, but acting like nothing can even compare to your several decades old set is just delusion.>>11455307>Compromises must be made. It's been 20 years since the last CRT factory closed down. This stuff breaks down over time. They were never meant to last this long.Also this. You can replace capacitors (with risk of death), you can make modifications, but you can't do anything to the tube itself, and it wears out just like any other part. They haven't been manufactured in over a decade, good ones haven't been manufactured in twice that long, and supply dwindles by the day.Better to replicate the experience as much as possible on modern TVs than clinging to dying ancient hardware.
>>11455365>> Run console into VCR into TV just like we did back in the day.>Now this was a bad idea unless you had to even then.I did it because it gave me a very easy way to record whatever I was playing anytime I wanted. Also TVs generally had one set of each input so if you didn't do that you would have to unplug/replug the VCR/console every time you wanted to switch.
>>11455883>Probably a dumb question, but i assume these have tons of unreliable shills because of the price; Are there reputable reviews or demos out there to show what they can do? Hopefully someone that isn't just getting paid off by the makers.There are plenty of people enthusiastic about retro games who have bought one of these, they keep getting sold out after all. There would be many reviews both written and video out there. Even if you don't trust that a reviewer isn't lying (which would not only land them in legal hot water if they hid that they got it for free/were paid to review it, but also land the company in trouble if they made them do it. Legally you need to say if you got a product for free) they sure as hell didn't pay thousands of people to shill for them, they're not some megacorp that can afford to do that.
>>11455891>I did it because it gave me a very easy way to record whatever I was playing anytime I wantedNow I'm curious, do you still have any of those tapes? I would assume not but
>>11455976Yes, though they are in storage. Also I would have to go through hours of tapes because I tended to just record on whatever tape had space on it between my recordings of broadcast cartoons or movies. I usually didn't write which ones I recorded game footage on.Been meaning to get a good VCR one day with proper HDMI out (Yes they exist) to capture them to something that isn't decaying 30 year old magnetic tape.
just get a pvmgot 20 sony for free recently28 inch barco better tho
>>11457315>just get a pvm got 20 sony for free recentlyEasy for you to say, I don't know anyone who is giving away PVMs or selling them for dirt cheap in my area. My Trinitron WEGA is good enough.
>>11445746How long until these things come down to a reasonable price of about $100-200? I already use component cables directly to my CRT but I want to get a gcomp and a 4k upscaler to split my signal to a capture card, but I think $1500 to stream a decent quality is pretty ridiculous.
>>11458798Just buy an older model. If you don't have the money, don't buy the latest and greatest.
>>11458798the 4k is overkill, but i believe half of the price is the fpga being used in iti got a 5x and i have had no complaints with it so far
>>11447549I've posted this image several times over the years because I really want people to see how beautiful PS2 games look with the 5x compared to what I used to use all the time, the OSSC.
>>11458984another webm showing 5x PS2 beauty
>>11457315I hope that's just your camera, it looks pretty blurry
>>11459006Idk, looks pretty clear to me,
