>>11503270
>Final Fantasy 2 is the worst one
1 is worse
>Why does no one have any actual criticisms of this game?
The leveling system requires you to play in a really annoying way and it forces you to constantly use spells when you dont want to just to level them.
All the dungeons look like youre walking around in a puddle of puke and entering a room thats completely empty just so you can walk out again gets pretty old the 300th time you do it.

>>11503270
It's the worst because it's different. People hate games that are different because it forces them to adapt. It's interesting how ahead of the time final fantasy 2 was with its skill leveling system. Something western RPGs would later adopt and be praised for.

>If I cover my eyes and ears, and dismiss all criticism as non valid, I win
impossible that these types have 3 digit IQs

It might be the worst Final Fantasy, but it's basically SaGa 0 and it's pretty cool to see where that all started.

Worth playing I'd say. Only a little bit longer than 1.

>>11503289
The leveling in FF2 was nothing like skill systems in rpgs. stop being disingenuous

>>11503285
Spells are entirely optional, though their base exp gain rates were abysmally low in almost every version. The leveling system I feel people always go too hard on because they lack self control. It was similar to FF8 where you could make the game much easier or harder when you knew what to do. Basically a malleable difficulty that went in either direction. In FF2 in particular I used to love "training weapon" runs where you would only use the lowest tiers of each weapon, slowly upgrading as minimum damage limits would creep up. Then by the end of the game you take the weighted clothes off and obliterate the super bosses in 1-3 turns. Always felt so rewarding (until you didn't et any of their drops ofc)

In terms of the visuals, I honestly preferred how simple the originals were. After they started filling in a lot of the maps and backgrounds they started to look a lot worse and felt like filler shit.

>>11503289
>>11503369

First anon is right, but your angle isnt really there. It was basically a leveling system like you'd see in the TES games much later. Skill based systems would come later, while FF2 was strictly about stats and proficiency. A lot of people sadly don't have the appreciation or self control for that type of system, they see things like "easy grind methods" and then complain when things get boring because you're one shotting every single enemy with bullshit like level 16 fists while chillin with absurd HP and MP (all for spells which are level 1-3 because they can't be assed)

Good game, very flawed (especially by more modern systems) very exploitable, but there's a lot to appreciate if you have some self control and give yourself goals.

Also it will always be Frionel. Fuck SE.

>>11504018
>Spells are entirely optional
its not a roaring endorsement of the game when youre trying to tell me not to use magic in an RPG. Give me a break.

File: 1670171572266410.png (138 KB, 630x408)

138 KB PNG

>>11504042
If you've never played major RPGs with no magic you haven't actually played the genre. Pure STR/DEX/INT focus was a thing long before the souls games and their ilk. FF6 in particular wanted you to specifically choose between stats and spells (or just go full tism and give everyone everything by micromanaging level ups and ruin the balance of the game.) Even the early versions of FF2 would make you choose between light and dark magic by weakening the opposite (relatively speaking) when you leveled either base stat. You weren't supposed to build characters to have everything, you had to pick and choose where your focus was for each character (or party, for challenge/themed runs.)

Its an SRPG series but pic related. The Shining Force games had no magic on the majority of your units, with many of them only learning any through promotions or special upgrade items and enchanted weapons that would cast spells (ala FF1, but they actually fucking broke) Older RPGs used to be more about specializing and less about becoming fucking a group of boring ubermensch.

>>11504042
Okay so does the game force you to use them too much, or does it tell you not to use them at all?

Make up your fucking mind about what is causing your butthurt

>>11504073
im not reading this you have no idea what im trying to say go blog to someone else.
>>11504081
>Okay so does the game force you to use them too much, or does it tell you not to use them at all?
If you played the game you would know the answer. The game forces you to cast heal during combat even though its more efficient to do it after a battle. The game forces you to waste all your mana casting so your magic levels up even though it doesnt accomplish anything. You are incentivized to camp outside a town dumping all your mana every battle then going into town to recover it. The system incentivizes your mages to not attack with their weapons because itll cause them to forget how magic works. I need to save mana to get though this dungeon why am I forced to dump it to make sure my skills dont degrade? Its engaging in a bad way.

And for the record blogging anon I know the game doesnt force you to use magic and you can just swing your sword if you want.

>>11504081
Its a contradiction. Consumables that have spell effects are generally level 8 versions of spells IIRC, which is generally enough to either consistently give their effect or have a pretty decent potency. They're also pretty plentiful, as you shouldn't expect to burn through them constantly if you refuse to invest in the damn spells in the first place. Bacchus Wine is a pretty famous one in particular for the blood sword strat, and the later versions added a ton of level scaled items as well I believe.

Honestly my only real complaint (beside exp rates) with magic in FF2 was the stupid ass grind needed for specific spells. To be fair they weren't necessary when there were readily available alternatives, but stuff like Drain/Osmose/Aura and the drop-only spells with unique effects felt like shit to get. Especially since you'd have to nurse them up to the levels of your other spells.

>>11504106
You're trying to say that telling someone not to use magic is not an endorsement for the game, and I'm saying your mindset is fucking stupid. If thats not what you're saying, say it plain lad. Like I said, RPGs don't revolve around magic, even D&D adaptations fucking understood that (and shit like BG2 had some busted magic, but it was entirely optional with weapon and party management.)

Look up the actual calculations on things like stat growth. Some versions got it better than others, but the long and short is that doing stuff like leveling up spells outside of combat like Heal actually makes them more efficient at boosting max MP due to their higher cost triggering the stat growth more often in combat. If you want to powerlevel like a fucking autist then keeping getting hurt outside of combat and healing, then take your high cost healing spell and pump up your MP growth. Then again MP growth goes up with leveling magic in combat in general, to prevent non-mages from using it to get huge gains in like 2 battles. Stat growth was specifically designed to fit in with archetypes, while allowing for hybrid focused classes.

File: Dungeon_Master_Box_Art.jpg (21 KB, 264x377)

21 KB JPG

>>11503289
>It's interesting how ahead of the time final fantasy 2 was with its skill leveling system. Something western RPGs would later adopt and be praised for.
It wasn't ahead of its time at all, WRPGs did this before FF2. It's just that WRPGs that released after FF2 were the first to do it in a decent way, so they are most remembered for it. Consolebabs really have no clue that even the earliest JRPGs were all just aping things that CRPGs had already done.

>>11503270
I’ve never played 2 or 3. I like the town theme of 2 though and I’ve already heard the spiel about “you hit urself to win lol” being idiots thinking they’re cleverly gaming the system so I’ll probably play the pixel remaster eventually

>>11503270
the issue is the game doesn't work correctly, but I don't think it's bad. it's a valid complaint though.

>>11503270
because they didn't play it

>>11504073
>FF6
>ruin the balance of the game
Fucking lol. FF6 has no balance, every character starts with their best abilities and you just do the defense ignoring attack that costs no MP every turn.

>>11505235
That applies to Sabin and....?
>defense ignoring attack that costs no MP every turn.
Most characters don't even have abilities like that. Are you talking about the right game?

File: artworks-000418003278-m6h(...).jpg (44 KB, 500x500)

44 KB JPG

People hate it because it's different.
I hate it because I think it's a shit SaGa game.
>BUT IT WAS THE FIRST
Don't care. The formula immediately got better once he did SaGa1/2, but as it stands FF2 is a much weaker version than them. Neat novelty for being basically a prototype but that doesn't mean it's good.

>>11505754
Oh good, a SaGa fan. How's the first SaGa (FF Legend)? Any advise on getting started?
I got the SaGa collection a long time ago but never bothered much with it. The only SaGa games i've played are RS2, Frontier and a little bit of Minstrel Song.

>>11503270
Nuance is lost on most people. Everything must be great or terrible. Or they heard the memes about FF2 being bad ("hit yourself to level HP" etc) and didn't actually play the game.

It's not a bad game, nor is it amazing. I've played every mainline besides XVI and I'd rate it as... average I guess. It's fine? Slightly worse overall than FFI. But I will artistically defend it in the face of worse FF games like XV, VIII, X, and XIII

File: fflegend2-1653151563367.jpg (140 KB, 1024x1024)

140 KB JPG

>>11505763
2 is especially worth playing. I think that's where the classic formula really perfected itself. The QoL changes from 1, the added Robot race, nice variety of worlds, weapons, builds, etc.. Honestly for a handheld RPG made for the original Gameboy, I'd say it's damn near perfect.
1 is worth playing as well, I still consider that game to be a "figuring it out" phase, but it's unique even compared to 2 as the races all behave much differently (humans you need to buy upgrades, mutants are OP as fuck)
The only complaint I have about 2 is the final world basically becomes a grind session, unless you spam the fuck out of the most OP weapons of all time, which have limited usage.

List of games who got an unwarranted bad reputation partly due to shitty guides written for them:
- Final Fantasy II
- Mizurna Falls
- NES Dragon Ball Z

The guides aren't at fault as much as the people who believe everything they read though

>>11505754
>>11505785
Saga 2 sucks compared to FF2. The fact that you never get to level speed unless you actively play with speed weapons is fucking annoying. If you dont level your speed youll end up slower than every enemy by the halfway point in the game and then battles become really annoying.

Espers are op in 1 because they just become way better humans with no input from you but in 2 espers are still op because magic is way better than attacking for most of the game.

Saga 2 also has the same problem as 1 where you have to save scum constantly so you dont forget your good magic spells. All 3 games are severely flawed.

>>11503285
1 is the best game in the franchise you faggot pleb

>>11505814
cringe ass nostalgia guy

>>11503270
>If this doesn't impress you, then what? It's so well made you'll be amazed
>Every aspect of 1 is improved upon
Quotes from the Famitsu reviews

>>11503270
>cutting yourself, the game
>Oblivion-esque skill scaling that makes it easy to build up your characters in a lopsided manner, prioritizing 'realism' in this otherwise primitive fantasy RPG over enjoyability
FF blew goats til 3, honestly. No auto-aim to next enemy in FF1 was stupid even then, and FF2's systems were clownshoes.
>>11505775
How is it a 'meme'? It's a viable meta in the game, at least for a good chunk in the beginning.
>>11505823
lol they also soi'd out bigtime on Nintendogs. Everyone's still playing and talking about that perfect game, right?

>>11503289
>be praised for
No, Todd, it sucks there too.

and even in western RPGs with skills divorced from character level, they often have a lot more nuance, roleplaying, strategic combat, or something going for them than this consolized random battle press attack sim

>>11505872
>How is it a 'meme'?
It's a meme because it was a small bit of information that spread around. That's the literal definition of a meme.

More to the point though, people are taking it at face value and frustrating themselves with perceived grind when you can just play the game like any other retro FF and be just fine.

>>11505795
>Mizurna Falls
What happened with the guides on this one?

>>11505775
8 and 10 worse than 2 is insane
your point is valid and 2 hatred is overstated but to call it better than 8 or 10 is just contrarianism

>>11506001
>no grind
This is untrue for any 8bit RPG, let alone was as baroque and demanding of it as FF2.

>>11506024
FF2 is designed to be as grindfree as possible. The game system is made precisely so that if there is a strength discrepency between you and the enemies, your stat gain will be faster, so that catching up is quick, and on the contrary insisting on fighting lower level enemies yields less results.
You will need to grind for max MP and at the very least the Esuna spell though.

There are definitely a few 8-bit RPGs with no grinding though

>>11506016
Truly, it's not me being contrarian. I went into both games with optimism, and finished both with disdain. Being completely honest, and I'd be happy to explain why.

Problems with FF8 include
>story introduces layers of convoluted elements like amnesia, child soldiers, time manipulation, visions from past events, the moon sending monsters to earth, but passes by many of them too quickly to develop those concepts.
>Hell, from the space section onward it's like the game rushes by.
>Squall/Rinoa romance never felt convincing personally, Squall is a fantastically written character for a game, but Rinoa is severely underdeveloped, and therefore damages their chemistry.
>Draw system is a good idea, but the explanations and UI are genuinely the worst in any FF in terms of communicating information to the player (t. graphic designfag)
>in terms of character writing, the cast aside from Squall feel underdeveloped

Problems with FF10 include
>lack of worldbuilding until far into the game, I get that it's a "stranger in a strange land," premise, but you barely have any understanding of where the party is in the world until the very end. It really damages the stakes of the pilgrimage.
>like with FF8, the romance of the main characters never felt believable, just melodramatic and lacking real chemistry
>character dialogue delivery can be weird, which AFAIK was due to issues lip syncing during localization. Still, for a game so dependant on cutscenes, it's immersion breaking
>areas are quite literally hallways
>battle system is overall good, but enemy variety was a little too "lock and key," aka use Auron for armored enemies, Wakka for flying one, etc. Inflexible would be the right word
>blitzball.
Give me another post to continue my autism (1/2)

>>11506098
Continuing
>turn order system has some issues sometimes. For example I got wiped in the aerial Sin fight once because he just decided to do 6 attacks in a row, without any chance for me to react. That is not an exaggeration, it's what literally happened.
>game difficulty is 75% a cakewalk, then very hard at the last parts, which I felt underprepared for, despite always upgrading gear.
Note: a game being hard or easy isn't inherently an issue, just a lack of consistency in how the difficulty progress
>Auron has no reason to hide so much important information and be so dodgy until Zanarkand, and Tidus would've absolutely pressed him for answers.

That's all I can remember at the moment. To be fair there is a lot of things I genuinely like about both games, especially the music and art directions for both games. I dont have some sort of axe to grind against them, hell I can easily criticize things in my favorite FF titles.

But back to FF2, it's a much smaller game, but also has a lot less wrong with it, especially with its story. Narrative scope, I would say. But if you want to criticize FF2, the stat system isn't the target. You go after the bugs, the amount of trap doors in dungeons, and the Emperor being a cakewalk (killed him in two turns by accident)

And I would be a massive cowardly faggot if I criticized some games but didn't say what I liked. My favorites include FF5, FF3, and would put both 7 and 9 as a tie for third place

>>11506116
Oh also, if you did actually read my autism, I appreciate it. Truly, I do not argue in bad faith.

>>11505775
>But I will artistically defend it in the face of worse FF games like XV, VIII, X, and XIII
Based, only missing XVI on the trash heap.

>weapon skill system is nice in theory, in reality it just locks you to using one weapon type throughout the entire game
>magic leveling system is nice in theory, in reality it takes an ungodly amount of time to level up spells to the point where they do similar damage to regular melee attacks
>being able to build your characters however you want is nice in theory, in reality you end up with 2 melee and 1 caster, especially in the Famicom version where the game literally lowers your INT stat when you gain STR, and vice versa
>rotating 4th party member seems neat, but in reality they are almost always SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than your main 3, only exception is Minwu at the very start of the game
>keyword system seems like a nice way to make the lore more interactive, in reality you just end up trying every single word and getting "?" "?" "?" until you find the one keyword that the dev intends for you to use on that NPC
>lots of retarded random encounter enemies, like ones that can cast sleep/paralysis on your entire party; you can Game Over to unavoidable bad luck
>the further you get in the game, the less useful armor/defense becomes; enemies just start hitting for absurd damage no matter how much defense you have, so you have to grind Evasion stat and wear no armor so that attacks just miss

"no actual criticisms" right OP?

>>11506230
this
the problem with FF2 is that almost every new system or mechanic it introduces is implemented in a really shitty and broken way
the entire game feels like a beta test rather than a finished game

>>11506085
>Grindfree
What? You've clearly never played any version of this game. It has the highest random encounter rate of any game in the series.

>>11506230
>weapon skill system is nice in theory, in reality it just locks you to using one weapon type throughout the entire game
It does not. Enemies have levels that determine how much weapon exp you get when attacking them, so using multiple weapon types can still level at relatively similar rates than only using one. In fact, only using one will often have you gaining zero proficiency for that weapon since you will often outlevel your enemies easily in a standard playthrough. You just can't expect to use every single one and gain proficiency as quickly as limiting each character to 3 or 4.
>magic leveling system is nice in theory, in reality it takes an ungodly amount of time to level up spells to the point where they do similar damage to regular melee attacks
Thats specifically attack magic, which you only really need Fire (and maybe holy for fire resistant enemies.) to cover pretty much every enemy in the game. The big thing with magic is the buffs and status ailments, which become more accurate/impactful and less resistible the more you level them. Leveling them is fucking ass though, you are right about that.
>being able to build your characters however you want is nice in theory, in reality you end up with 2 melee and 1 caster, especially in the Famicom version where the game literally lowers your INT stat when you gain STR, and vice versa
Many people do not see this as a bad thing, but its an opinion so not liking it is perfectly fair.
(cont)

>>11506307
>lots of retarded random encounter enemies, like ones that can cast sleep/paralysis on your entire party; you can Game Over to unavoidable bad luck
These were very true to old pen and paper conversion mechanics in old RPGs, as magic was often designed in ways that could easily wipe parties if not protected. Just like in said pen and paper games as well as in later years with infinity engine games, magic defense/evasion is what prevents those scenarios. In FF2 these spells have both a % to hit as well as a maximum number of hits (which needs to beat out the comparative evade % as well as the number of max evades) so increasing either of those helps. Multiple spells revolve around increasing those stats in battle as well.
>the further you get in the game, the less useful armor/defense becomes; enemies just start hitting for absurd damage no matter how much defense you have, so you have to grind Evasion stat and wear no armor so that attacks just miss
Armor weight is an important balancing act between evasion and defense. Heavier armor is supposed to coincide with getting hit a lot and building your stamina. Basically you choose between dodging and soaking damage as you're developing your character, while unfortunately evasion ends up being more effective overall. Tanking is still plenty viable though, and heavy armor runs just require more healing and maybe some buff spells to make them more comfortable.

Not that your opinions are wrong, just that some of them come from a lack of understanding of what's actually happening, or what mindset they intended for the player. The game is very esoteric in a lot of regards, so people not understanding things like armor's weight and its affect on evasion or exactly what actions affect stat growths is perfectly understandable. Not OP, but I guess my point is more that people would enjoy the game a lot more if they weren't trying to constantly slam square pegs in round holes.

>>11503270
I don't like the way you improve your stats

It's a shame because the world and art in FF2 feels like a big step up over the first but the broken system seems very tedious.

>>11506253
It had just as many bugs as the first one, and many other famicom/nes rpgs at the time. The way most mechanics were implemented may not be intuitive, but they are better than they often get credit for even in the famicom release. Here's a good guide for a breakdown of a lot of the under the hood mechanics, many of which are unfortunately not immediately apparent without researching: https://guides.gamercorner.net/ffii/walkthrough/game-systems

>>11506303
High encounter rate does not mean grindy. The entire reason many people picked thief in FF1 was because of their high escape rate, not because they eventually became ninjas. It was even one of the defaults to try to instill the importance of not needing to brute force every single encounter. That aside, Enemies only ever get up to level 7 or 8, and the "standard" efficiency for all weapons and abilities is 8. the gap up to 16 for most proficiencies and stats is to make room for (de)buffs to actually have any impact, as leveling something to 16 then buffing it further does nothing.

>>11506303
>It has the highest random encounter rate of any game in the series.

That's not grinding, that's just progressing through the game. Also I'm pretty sure the encounter rate is similar to FF1, and high encounter rates are precisely what makes 80s RPGs interesting, the random battles are the entire point

>square
>its logo is a triangle

>>11507354
You need to strike a balance between exploring the world, and dealing with challenges.
If the random encounters also become tedious, that's another issue.

Battles are not the sole gameplay of RPGs, the world and setting should be interesting, the player should be interested in making discoveries that advance a narrative, enrich their team, etc.

FF2 would probably have a better reputation in the west if the fan translations came with a translated manual

>>11507369
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/11432482/
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/10617169/#10617432
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/5657656/
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/4658378/#4658893
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/2363557/#2365662

File: FFBE - Abyss Worm.png (374 KB, 444x514)

374 KB PNG

>>11503270
>Why does no one have any actual criticisms of this game?
There's plenty, but the issue isn't so much the game but the people who played it a particular way (level grinding instead of just playing the game). There's no denying that the enemy encounter rate is obnoxious though.

This video here goes into detail about the criticisms the game gets and criticizes them.

https://youtu.be/320ElVeZSTU

File: 1619929928564_2.jpg (111 KB, 496x880)

111 KB JPG

>>11503270
>Why does no one have any actual criticisms of this game?
The leveling system seems to be the big issue, personally I don't like it in the original but in the re-releases they eased up a lot on it to make it a non-issue.
My biggest issue with 2 is just how fucking boring it is, like it's technically an improvement over 1 but 2 just feels like a mess where 1 despite it's simplicity was at least very straight forward. Perhaps it's just shitty translations or maybe it really does just suck but every "character" is so bland I don't even remember the names they had. The Emperor is easily in the bottom tier of FF villains he looks gay, talks gay, fights gay, and is only maybe beaten out by Ultimecia for me, even then I think she was more memorable than him purely because of Dissidia.

File: 1597522388313.jpg (203 KB, 474x444)

203 KB JPG

>>11507410
Obsessed

>>11503270
>Difficulty is broken, no enemy can do more than around 200 damage outside of the final dungeon (and those are %-based attacks).
>Stat growth is fuuuuuucked in the later versions.
>The whole Ultima thing, the spell is completely useless even if you grind it up to a high level of power and it inexplicably scales with both your magic and weapon profs. I would've rather recruit Minwu.
>Blood sword trivializes what difficulty the game has left due to its % damage few things in the game resists.
>It does have a lot of good mechanics under the hood such as the potency of curse and aura, but the game is so easy you don't need to engage with it (this is, granted, a recurring problem in Final Fantasy in general).
Though it's the origin of a staggering amount of FF monsters and themes, the game itself is boring as hell.

Bit of trivia, the sword Firion wields in the artwork is the blood sword.

>>11509605
You sound like you played with a guide only so you could complain it's too easy

>>11507968
I put that together in 5 minutes.

>>11509610
No, the game is just easy. Damn near all FF games are easy. Even FF12 which people say is one of the harder ones is easy. FF14 can be difficult at times but the stat scaling is so tight that it's based entirely on skill rather than knowledge making it a different conversation.

FF is not a difficult series, FF2 is the most easily-broken one. You don't even need a guide to find the blood sword which is probably the strongest weapon in all the FF games, you're outright told where its room is.

>>11503270
The keyword system is what makes this game unplayable. The complaints about the leveling system act like every RPG doesn't have some weird cheese mechanic.

What people don’t appreciate is that every nes sequel that was completely different from the rest of the franchise is an under appreciated gem hated solely for daring to be different instead of more of the same

>>11509646
>Muh too easy
No one cares about tryhard faggots.

File: retroarch_K30IlgKmpe.png (41 KB, 879x672)

41 KB PNG

>>11506307
>Many people do not see this as a bad thing
The problem is that the game lets you build your characters however you want, but then punishes you if you try to make the character do more than 1 thing. But I'm pretty sure it's only the Famicom version that does the retarded shit of reducing your STR if you gain INT.
....a lot of my complaints are about the Famicom version, yeah. It's absolutely fucked. The PS1 remake fixes a lot of these annoyances.

>These were very true to old pen and paper conversion mechanics in old RPGs
Yeah, I get that, but it's still fucking stupid and annoying. Randomly game over'ing to RNG isn't fun. Having random encounters that can completely fuck you up and are significantly harder than other random encounters in the area, is dumb and stupid and I hate it.

>Armor weight [...] Heavier armor is supposed to coincide with getting hit a lot and building your stamina. [...] Tanking is still plenty viable though
It's not. At least not in my experience. Late in the game, enemies just start hitting for absurd damage, like thousands, and even wearing full armor doesn't seem to do much. It's infinitely more effective to just dequip all armor and get your evasion as high as possible so that attacks just miss, unless you feel like grinding your health up to 5000+ just to survive random encounters.

>trying to constantly slam square pegs in round holes
FF2 is just badly designed. A lot of its mechanics seem like a good idea on paper, but were just implemented really fucking badly. Most of these issues were fixed in the SaGa games, which just makes FF2 feel even more like a beta test rather than a finished game.

It's not a BAD game by any means, it's just significantly worse than all the other classic FFs and has a lot of stupid broken shit in it.

>>11503270
The SaGa leveling system sucks and there's a reason it got put in its containment series

>>11503270
Negative stat growths were bullshit.
I recall the amount of trap rooms seems particularly high in this entry.
Having an eternally rotating 4th member sucked considering the growth system.
Leon is a loser and Maria was probably masturbating while the Lamia seduced Firion.

>>11509997
>I recall the amount of trap rooms seems particularly high in this entry.
Almost every single dungeon had it, yeah. It was fucking stupid.

>>11509728
The keyword system is just the japs not understanding how to make a console-friendly topic system like CRPGs of the era, not understanding WHY you put those into games, and not wanting to put in the work of writing all the dialogue that usually comes with being able to select different topics when talking to people. And probably not wanting to program all the shit for adding changing topics on the fly.

http://setsumei.html.xdomain.jp/famicom/finalfantasy2/finalfantasy2.html

The manual everyone was supposed to have when playing the game but that westerners did not get

>* Some stats will decrease if other stats increase.
> shields are not used to increase defensive power, but to increase evasion rate. As you fight more, your evasion rate will increase, and it will also increase if you switch to a strong shield. By using a shield, you can prevent the decrease in evasion rate caused by wearing armor.
> In order to create a strong character quickly, try not to create a red mage-type character (a character with the characteristics of both a warrior and a wizard). This is because swordsmen and wizards have different characteristics. As mentioned in the explanation of the stats, some stats will decrease when other stats increase. In other words, increasing intelligence and vitality is essential to becoming a magician, but at the same time, it is also an element that decreases stamina and strength, which are essential for warriors. This also applies in the opposite case. As a result, a character is born that does not develop much in spite of the effort. Of course, this does not always happen, but... In order to create a strong character quickly, it is ultimately the fastest way to clear the game to decide in your head what kind of character you want from the beginning. Of course, you can clear the game with any character.

>>11510026
It's still stupid and broken though.
>build your characters however you want!
>no not like that

Off the top of my head, stupid broken shit in the original (FC / NES) version of FF2:
-inventory is retardedly small (only ~25 slots or so), consumable items do not stack, also key items end up taking up half your inventory by the end of the game
-can't use items in battle other than two item-equip slots on each character, and each character can only use the item on himself, not others
-putting a character in the back row makes melee attacks not work, only Bow weapons work
-leveling spells takes stupidly long, 30-40 casts just for 1 level up, and max rank is 16
-Ultima spell is hyped up as this super powerful ancient forbidden magic, but it does absolute shit damage because its damage formula is based on the levels of your other damage spells
-rotating 4th party member is always significantly weaker than your base 3 characters, only exception is Minwu at the beginning of the game
-increasing STR makes INT go down, and vice versa; pidgeonholes you into having 2 melee and 1 caster
-HP / MP do not increase unless they are below 50% (?) at the end of the battle, and even then it's still a random chance, not guaranteed
There's a reason why FF3 went right back to the same formula as FF1. They tried a bunch of weird experimental shit in FF2 and it didn't work. Thankfully the SaGa games fixed a lot of this shit.

File: 1.png (30 KB, 879x672)

30 KB PNG

>>11510095
>-inventory is retardedly small (only ~25 slots or so), consumable items do not stack, also key items end up taking up half your inventory by the end of the game
This is it, this is the entire inventory. The bottom half (other than that one FenixDn) is all key items that cannot be deleted. There's exactly 32 inventory slots, and EVERYTHING, from consumables to equipment, takes up its own slot and does not stack.

The PS1 version is also like this, but there's 63 spaces instead, which at least alleviates the issue a good bit.

>>11510062
>no not like that

The manual tells you it's still possible just not as efficient.
It's balancing, just like in FF1 you can have a "red mage" type which is mid at everything. The problem seems to be people playing this after they played FF6.
But even if you take it that way that still leaves plenty of freedom on what to do, players who claim you're "forced" to have 2 fighters and 1 caster are either exagerating or lack imagination and when I see pics like these >>11509954 that just confirms it... Even if use Firion and Guy as fighters you can still give them decent MP (50-100) and use them as back up healers / buffers and doing that isn't going to substantially reduce their attacking power


>>11510095
>-putting a character in the back row makes melee attacks not work, only Bow weapons work

I'm sorry, is this your first RPG?

>-can't use items in battle other than two item-equip slots on each character, and each character can only use the item on himself, not others

Items in combat in FF2 aren't the focus precisely because everyone can use spells (or at least should be, if you still have 10 max MP on your characters by the end game that's on you for not using the tools the game gives you), I almost never used them.
With that said, having "only" 2 consumable items per character isn't that big of a difference compared to Dragon Quest 2-3-4 once everyone is properly equipped.

Honestly gameplay quirks aside I just don't think the story is very good. While it was impressive they managed to HAVE a story which for console RPGs was still a novel concept the cast is paper thin and most of the time things just happen with no rhyme or reason

>>11510197
>I'm sorry, is this your first RPG?
Every other FF with front/back row still allows melee attacks to work from the back row, but at reduced damage.

>if you still have 10 max MP on your characters by the end game that's on you
The manual literally tells you that trying to make a red mage character is bad. Increasing INT / MP will make those melee characters weaker. Game is badly designed. Stop whiteknighting bad design just to be contrarian.

>>11509610
I mean he called him Firion and hit us with a did you know gaming about the amano art. Some of the complaints were fair, but cmon.
>>11509646
FF14 is absolutely knowledge based if you get into any form of trials or raiding. If you do not learn the tells and mechanics before trying high level content, you WILL cause wipes and get booted from party finder groups unless they're specifically for learning. Clears require knowledge, and grinding groups require even more unless its low level easy shit. 12 CAN be difficult, but by default you're right that its not. It just has a few difficulty spikes and the ability to sequence break optional areas like the Necrohol which fuck people hard if not prepared.

>>11509954
Its not punishing you, its evening you out. You're not supposed to be walking around with big dick 99 in every stat with 16 proficiency with every single weapon and a full lineup of spells on every single character. The stat degen isn't even 1:1, each stat increase just has a chance of it happening for the aforementioned reason. The game wants to discourage grinding and wants you to play through it in a freeform way, while building your strengths based on your actions and playstyle for each character and preventing you from over-diversifying. Thats pretty standard fair for archetypes in general in games, you usually have to give up X to specialize in Y, while spreading yourself thin makes you weaker in any given field than said specialists. Just look at how Red Mage was designed in the days before they became known for X-Magic.
>Yeah, I get that, but it's still fucking stupid and annoying. Randomly game over'ing to RNG isn't fun. Having random encounters that can completely fuck you up and are significantly harder than other random encounters in the area, is dumb and stupid and I hate it.
You hate it, great. That doesn't mean others don't appreciate having high stakes in their gameplay to add tension.
>It's not. At least not in my experience.
Learn how to use buffs, debuffs, and statuses. Leveling Blink makes heavy armor characters get hit one time for single digits damage, if at all. Leveling protect gets your defense closer 10 16, reducing endgame physical damage considerably. Curse nukes enemy stats, slow nukes their number of hits, etc. Playing full plate requires more than just mashing attack, which is why focusing evasion is easy mode.
>FF2 is just badly designed.
Its not, like I said, its just esoteric. If its mechanics were more intuitive in terms of the player understanding what everything does at all times without needing to be told, it would have been much better received.

>>11510547
The way rows work in FFII is integral to the battle system and it being modernized in Pixel Remaster just means there's no reason for the back row to even exist since defense isn't real in FFII, it no longer prevents status attack ganks, and max HP is decided by incoming damage anyways so you're only gimping your own outgoing damage. One of the actually functional grinding strats in FFII was to put 3 characters in the back row so one character (read: your rotating shitter) could get their evasion up which no longer works.

>>11510378
Honestly I can't think of any JRPG before FF2 which has a story which is that mature, developed and grounded in reality. It was a major advancement for the genre.

>>11511919
While not JRPG Ultima 4 and The Bard's Tale were both out already. I think DQ3 was but the are contemporary as far as I'm concerned so it barely counts same with Ys. Maybe you could say Hydlide 2 but I don't think it counts.

>>11506119
I do the same fren, no worries. I enjoy ff8 but honestly since my disk kept freezing right as the ice hit squall, haven't got to play it.. Also the same with ff7s juno hitting weapon, freezing at that one moment. Weirdest thing. Also... Fujin best ff waifu, till at least XV.

>>11511919
>Honestly I can't think of any JRPG before FF2 which has a story which is that mature, developed and grounded in reality. It was a major advancement for the genre.
youre being a bit hyperbolic.

>>11511103
>you could randomly game over to RNG at any point. LE HIGH STAKES!
>it's not badly designed, it's just, uhhhhh....esoteric!
Genuine autism.

>>11515193
>>11514495
The main thing that I think is ahead of its time for FF2 and which set a new standard for JRPGs is that the story and theme aren't just fantasy for the sake of fantasy and aren't just "defeat the Evil bad guy" or any other cliché stuff that is just an excuse for D&D players to roll dice

Instead it's a more down to earth war story between 2 factions* in which the fantasy aspects aren't there just for fantasy sake, but are embedded into that world and story in a realistic manner. For instance magic is nothing more than a tool of war in the same manner science is a tool of war irl.

Dialogues are also more developed and involved than in even DQ3 (with and without the keyword system), and there are a lot of plotwists and emotional moments

*until the end of the game at which point it does turn to "defeat evil bad guy". Note though that this manner of story telling would become Final Fantasy standard starting with FF4 (which borrows a LOT from 2)

so I really don't think Bard's Tales, DQ3, Ys or Hydlide 2 comes close to that. They all play their story and fantasy elements in a fairly classic way. Touché about Ultima 4 though

>>11515401
>you could randomly game over to RNG at any point.
>ant any point

That's an overstatement
But yes being able to game over to bad RNG was pretty standards in 80s RPGs and even console ones. It was the same in FF1 with Dark Wizards or Cockatrice, or in DQ2 with the hordes of Dragon Fly if only 3 out of 5 of them decide to throw fireballs at you. But of course all of that is nothing compared to Wizardry games.

But that's not bad design, the entire point is that you're supposed to prepare yourself and make the proper battle decisions to reduce the chances of that happening. Which again, if 2 out of 3 of my main characters still had their originam max MP number by the end game, is probably not something you've done.
Playing old RPGs is like playing a simplified version of poker: you have the players who rage quit when they have a pair of aces but someone else pulls a 5% chance straight flush and then claims "it's all luck anyway", and then you have the players who make poker their job.

>>11515937
Its almost like Shell, Wall, Silence, Sap, Fog, and Barrier were included in the game for a reason, but default MP chads wonder why status ailments aren't worthless like in later games. Honestly the only thing I'd change would be to make E/Basuna consistent in either accuracy or ailment coverage, either make it always work on all ailments or keep the tiered system but make it 100% in combat for each tier included ailment.

Also the protagonist of FF2 were more like every day teenagers / young adults, rather than your D&D archetypes or prince/princess/token hero

I feel like people take all these things for granted when playing FF2 because in the west everyone played it in the 00s but it was pretty novel for the time