Can you say "I beat the game" if you used a guide to find the collectibles?
>>11508304Maybe
The natural path for discovery back then was to buy gaming magazines and read hints and secrets section. Guides just reduce the time from months to hours.
I'd say anything counts as beating the game if you aren't using savestates, rewind, cheats, 'QoL' patches/hacks and all that other shit
I can say that without ever touching the game in the first place. What are you gonna do about it? Nothing? I thought so.
>>11508312You didn't beat the game.
>>11508309basically this, using a guide is cringe ass failure behavior and you didnt experience the game properly but you did actually play the game unlike everything else here.
Some games were very obtuse with puzzles incentivizing you to purchase a guide, R&C wasn't one of them though.
>>11508304useless collectibles don't apply to skill at the game so why gatekeep?
>>11508327R&C had proto-achievements which did not disclose to you their unlock conditions until you accidentally trigger them.
>>11508314then did the game beat... ME?!
>>11508332I remember Spyro 2 and 3 had that too but iirc were literally no rewards for unlocking them and they didn't count towards completion percentage
>>11508332those were for autists
>>11508304I beat the story. Anything else after that is pretty much designed around selling me guides in these games, so if I used a guide, even a freebie online one, then that's how it sorts out.And then there was this shit.
>>11508307Just like save states reduce the path from days to minutes.I was gonna find it anyway. I was gonna beat it anyway. And if I wasn't it was a scam to steal my money.
>>11508304I still feel a tinge of shame for looking up my last missing missile upgrade in Metroid Prime, especially considering I already found the secret door leading to it, without the necessary beam upgrade to open it, and then just forgot about it. It is really cringe and stupid to feel this way, especially many years later.
>>11508309I see no problem with savestates, and there's nothing you can do about it
>>11508417>I was gonna find it anywayno you werent
>>11508325>The intended way to play LoZ NES is to wander randomly into temple level 5 and die.The game comes with a physical map for a reason
>>11508529thats what I did I guess im just smarter than you and dont need my big brother to beat the game for me.
>>11508304No. If you aren't running around like a garbage collecting headless chicken, you in fact did not beat the game. It's just as bad as installing mods for """QoL""" improvements.
I created a collectibles guide onceNow any time someone "beats" that game using my guide it counts as me beating the game for them
"Oops, I'm sorry, did you read the Castlevania 3 issue of Nintendo Power at your friend's house when you were a kid, including it's tips and tricks for C3? Looks like you can't ever beat C3 legitimately in this lifetime! Too bad! Better luck next reincarnation!"
>>11508756is this some sort of unreasonable strawman to make the opposing argument look stupid? What post posted is objectively correct.
>>11508758Alright. I beat Metroid for the first time two months ago. I used a map on gamefaqs to do it. Did I beat the game legitimately? If not, but I play through it again without using a map and instead using my memory of that map, have I now beaten the game legitimately? If not, do I have to wait a certain amount of time before I can? If so, how long do I need to wait?
It's only okay to use a guide if the secrets are cheap and unfun. I used a guide to solve some of the secrets in Banjo Tooie and DK64. I gave up, some of that shit was so cheap.Otherwise you're supposed to only use the information that comes with the game like the instruction manual and map. This is how much the developers want you to know about the game prior to playing it.
>>11508304If you play the entire game thru to the credits. You beat the game. Doesn't matter if you used qol improvements or guides. You beat the game.
>>11508865Not really. Some games require you to play on Hard mode to beat the game for real, like Contra 3 on the SNES.
>>11508992"true ending" bullshit is optional. if you see the credits you beat the game.
>>11508865This. As long as you didn't use straight-up cheats like infinite health and the like, you're fine. I was a 90s kid. Back then noone gave a shit if you didn't beat the game in some specific way like what seems to be demanded these days, or if you looked something up in a book or magazine. You sure as fuck weren't expected to 100% a game either. If you got to the credits, you beat the game. Feel free to add extra challenge for yourself for more bragging rights if you want, but getting to the credits without game genie codes was generally considered good enough.
>>11508304If you consulted anything other than the manual in the box, you didn't beat the game.
>>11508529Legend of Zelda is a weird thing because it was defined by the idea of playground and family/friend disclosure. They wanted anyone and everyone to wander around, find secrets in bushes or walls with whoever was experimenting with whatever, and then tell each other what they found so more people could find even more stuff together. The game was functionally deliberated on the idea that the collective consciousness of gamers would assemble to aid one another before the internet kicked off.
I wonder if there are any reasonably popular games that no one completed on their own. I don't believe anyone got the best ending in Siren by themselves, but the joke ending is doable.
>>11508304collectibles are irrelevant to whether a game is beaten or not, unless they're a progression gate like dk64
>>11508304Yes, because collectibles have nothing to do with beating a game. Beating the game means getting to the end of the game, not 100% completion. 100% completion is its own thing.
>>11509240I'm a stickler for not looking shit up but this anon is right though.
>>11508304Can you see your own genitals without leaning forward, loser?
>>11508304Technically it is a closer definition of beating the game than completing it without is, as beating implies an unfair violent action towards it. Actual cheating is thus objectively the only way to really beat games outside of physically breaking the disc or cartridge.
>>11508304Well the guide can only... Guide you. You actually played the game.
Reminder if you've ever changed the default control scheme you didn't beat the game.The experience that the developers intended for you was built around those specific controls.Changing them means you opted out of the intended experience, and therefore did not beat the game.
>>11509210It was but at least the first quest was somewhat manageable without outside help. But then there were games like Tower of Druaga...
>>11509463This and you must also use an authentic controller>man I just beat SM64 with 120 starsOh yeah? I don't think you actually did
>>11508304Yes you can, there is no doubt about it.
>>11508524>I see no problem with cheatsOkay.
Guess using a tour guide when travelling means that you didn't actually visit the place.
>>11508304Just enjoy your game OP. Someone will always find a way to say you didn't beat the game unless you literally completed it on the origonal hardware, on a specific PS2 region, on the year of release, on a CRT, on a wrench only playthrough, etc. Etc. repeat ad nauseum.Do those things if they're fun, swing your dick about it if you want to, someone else will also swing theirs.
>>11509501If someone could beat Tower of Druaga's original arcade nature without a guide or outside help, they either spent enough money to fund Taito for a year in the day or are some sort of fucking gaming god. I genuinely think it's nigh physically impossible for someone to achieve that without SOME sort of aid.
>>11509502>>man I just beat SM64 with 120 starsSM64 is one of the few games that I ever 100%'d, and someone told me that merely getting all the stars didn't count as 100% because you had to get *all* the coins in every level, not just 100. Since each level has a different number of coins and the game doesn't tell you how many you can get, the only way to know it is, literally, to look it up.It's one of my favorite examples of how retarded this elitist autism is because it goes full circle. If you dare reading anything y-you d-didn't beat the game!, while, at the same time, if you don't look this up you can't beat SM64. I guess it's just unbeatable.
>>11508304YesIf I'm to play a game once I'd rather try and do as much a 100% playthrough as I can and appreciate every nook and cranny of its existence. Non-spoiler guides are underrated.
>>11508829You broke the bot
>>11508998t. journalist that thought he finished Nier Automata after seeing Ending A
>>11509463If the game itself offers the option to change its control scheme then it means the developers intended for you to be able to alter your control scheme. Otherwise they wouldn't have built it in
>>11509725>you had to get *all* the coins in every level, not just 100.What even causes this level of autism? Not a single person thought like this when the game was new, even getting 120 stars was a monumental enough task that most people didn't do it.
>>11508829Using a map permanently locks you out of saying you beat Metroid. For as long as you live, you can never go back and undo that because you can never truly forget what you saw.
>>11508304"We beat the game" takes an extra keystroke to type.
>>11508304Yeah. As long as you didn't do anything to change how the game itself works (cheats, rewinds, etc.). You just can't say "I beat the game without a guide." Which makes a bigger difference depending on the game. Like if you tell someone you beat Myst with a guide, you still beat the game but nobody is going to be impressed. If you tell them you beat Battletoads with a guide, nobody will care if you used a guide or not. And honestly nobody cares much anyway, it's just guides trivialize some games more than others.
>>11508325I'm sorry you didn't have friends growing up.
>>11509383It can turn a non liner game into a liner one though
>>11509725>someone told me that merely getting all the stars didn't count as 100% because you had to get *all* the coins in every levelLet me guess, that 'someone' was some anon from this board
Yeah, but i feel like your playthrough has less integrity the more tools you use. Strategy guides exist but at least you had to pay for them. Also, a lot of strategy guides sucked ass and didn't help you much.
>>11508829For Metroid it doesn't matter because having access to a map doesn't impact the challenge. You've removed some of the fun and immersion from the game, by downsizing the exploration elements, but the exchange is that you're saving time getting through it. The relative weights of those merits are subjective.More generally, using a guide or outside help for games where the challenge is impacted by that does mean it wouldn't be legitimate. The "waiting" just comes down to how much of it you've done on your own. For example, an anon mentioned Myst earlier. It's a puzzle game, so if you do it the first time with a guide to the puzzles you're experiencing 0% of the difficulty. If you come back ten years later and remember the solutions to some (vaguely-defined) 50% of the puzzle "challenge", then your run is 50% legitimate. Pretty simple.
You can say >I beat the game!!*>*with a guideand the * never goes away
