because Killer Instinct Gold set the bar too high
>>11511648This.
>>11511645Because you'd have to butcher them so they can fit in an N64 cartridge
>>11511665Most of that size is uncompressed music from the port. Rather check the arcade version size.
>>11511671Wouldn't the N64 still struggle at big sprites with tons of frames of animation because of the 4 KB of texture cache?
>>11511683I've heard the same and it kinda makes sense but I'd like to see if any homebrew dev would make a demo to confirm or deny this claim.
>>11511645No good deals with Capcom or Namco.
>>11511665Simply false, and has been debunked many times on this board.>>11511683No.
>>11511709>No.Elaborate
>>11511715All you would have to do is divide the characters up into more flat polygons. The N64 has the processing power to handle it.
fighting games have not been playable on nintendo controllers since the snes
>>11511719The N64 controller uses the same d-pad as the SNES and has six face buttons.Never understood this criticism people make.
>>11511715The number of animation frames is irrelevant and only limited by the romsize (and systemram to store the uncompressed data)Larger sprites just get cut into smaller pieces until it fits, using multiple hardware sprites for one player character was already the norm for 2D hardware and nothing new.I even assume that the 'sprites' for SFA3 on the PSX are also done using multiple 'sprites', but I can't be bothered to check this in an emulator.
>>11511718IIRC the issue is with quickly fetching animated 2D graphics from the cart (the process that makes N64 cpu stall) and maintaining 60 fps. Unlike Neo Geo or CPS2, N64 can't stream graphics directly from the ROM, it needs to be unpacked into vram first and all these memory operations are slow on N64. Like I said, we need a proper demo to see if the bottlenecks are really that bad. Rakugakids runs decently but it has unconventional sprites and 3D backdrops.
>>11511648What the fuck?
>>11511645MK Trilogy is the best MK game
>>11511745The Neo Geo works similar to the Genesis/SNES really, having a very low amount of RAM it needs to stream a lot from cart really. Same happened on the 16bit home consoles. This data can even be compressed (at the cost of CPU cycles)The N64 has a massive amount of RAM (but relatively tiny amount of ROM) so a sensible approach would be to use the best compression to store on ROM, and unpack all data to RAM first. (Just like a Saturn/PS1 game would do it)People make too many assumtions on the N64 given its lack of certain games, but the real limiting factor here is the ROM size needed to do these games justice. That made it expensive and risky to do so compared to a CD. SFA3 on the GBA is 32MB, and that is with cuts in place.
>>11511745>>11511815Correct me if I'm wrong but aside from capacity the disadvantage of the N64 compared to the PS1 is that you waste a lot of time constantly swapping textures into the 4KB cache as you draw
>>11511824>Correct me if I'm wrong but aside from capacity the disadvantage of the N64 compared to the PS1 is that you waste a lot of time constantly swapping textures into the 4KB cache as you drawIts a _relatively_ expensive operation, but nothing that would hurt a 2D game in the end.Note that the N64 does have several 2D games running at 60. (MK Trilogy, Worms, Yoshi's story, NBA and a few more)
>>11511815>The Neo Geo works similar to the Genesis/SNES really, having a very low amount of RAM it needs to stream a lot from cart really. Same happened on the 16bit home consolesGenesis and SNES still load graphics into vram. Neo Geo only stores sprites attributes in vram and it was not the norm for 16-bit systems.
>>11511645Could the N64 have done a respectable port of X-Men Vs. Street Fighter?Anyway it had a pretty assy controller which I think is a big part of it, at least for traditional fighting games.
>>11511840>and it was not the norm for 16-bit systems.norm is subjective, a lot of games streamed data from cart to vram. Even happened on the (later) NES games
With that shit controller its impossible
>>11511923Didn't stop 3DO from getting a Super Turbo port
>>11511815>SFA3 on the GBA is 32MB, and that is with cuts in place.huhrom is about 8 megs
>>11511945You are absolutely correct, no idea where I got the 32MB number from
I wish we had that SFEX port for N64
>>11511645Sega had their own console, SNK had their own console, Namco abandoned Nintendo in favor of Sony after Yamauchi & Co. took away their privileged status in Japan during the SNES era. Not sure about Capcom. Midway did release a decent number of fighting games for the N64, they cared about it more than Japanese companies because it was more popular in the USA. In addition to Mortal Kombat titles they also published Mace: The Dark Age.
>>11511645Probably no interest of japanese developers to put their fighters on the console due to low sales of the system in Japan and having to deal with limited cartridge space and a difficult system to develop for.
>>11511645KI Gold and MK were pretty big.>>11511845>>11511923It had a six button controller just like Saturn. The joystick makes it arguably even better for this
>>11511645You might try SNES instead
>>11511715Play Rakugakids. It's basically a Street Fighter clone with silly graphics. It proves it can be done.
Trilogy is one of the few N64 I still play with friends to this day. It’s just too much silly fun going 3v3.
>>11511824You do "waste time", but it's still not enough to make the game unfeasible. inefficient ≠ impossible
Because of the cart size limitation.
>>11512194Tsujimoto wouldn't have cared about any of the technical issues. If the N64 looked like the way that would make him more money he'd order it doen and grunts downstairs can torture themselves figuring out how to actually do it.
>>11512308Street Fighter Alpha 3 CPS2 ROM is 22 megabytes. This is well within the capacity of N64 cartridges. Some other CPS2 game sizes.Super Street Fighter II Turbo - 11.3 MBStreet Fighter Alpha 2 - 13.1 MBX-men vs Street Fighter - 18.7 MBMarvel Super Heroes - 19.2 MBMarvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter - 22.1 MBMarvel vs Capcom - 22.7 MBVampire Savior - 22.3 MBjust for funKing of Fighters '98 - 40.3 MB
>>11512336I'll still always gripe that the N64 had some serious untapped potential due to the failure of the DD. Sure, at best it could've only added 64mb more onto a cartridge game's potential size, for a theoretical max of 128mb, but back then that would've been a world of difference for asset storage on the system, the REAL expansion pack so to speak. And probably cumbersome as fuck with oversized floppy disc carts.As it stands, if those are the average Capcom game sizes, then it's probably moreso Capcom had no idea how to tango with the N64 (they were already struggling with PS1 ports as is) and decided it wasn't worth the hassle.
You could save some resources by rendering the hit sparks as 3d effects, this was done in the PS1 version of Alpha 3. Could also do some of the projectiles like the hadoken or shinkuu hadoken as 3d effects.
>>11512352As mentioned here Capcom was run as a dictatorship. >>11512315If Tsujimoto makes the deal on the golf course with whoever, then it's going to happen regardless of what the devs think. That's how the 3do SSF2T port happened.
>>11511923huh? B - jabA - short< - strong\/ - forward/\ - fierce> - roundhouse
>>11511645>Why weren't fighting games bigger on the Nintendo 64?Well the games were on cartridge which had less space than a PlayStation disc, so the games were smaller.
RE: the N64 blur filterThis could be turned off via custom micro-code, which is within Capcom's reach as a major developer who works closely with Nintendo.Additionally, I've run screenshots of the Saturn version through the N64 vi filter in retroarch and it didn't really look that bad anyway.
>>11511923>when anon fails to realize that the C buttons make it a six button controller plus two shoulders and a trigger
>>11512408
>>11512416Man I might have to order an N64 to USB adapter just to live out this fantasy one these days.
>>11512395You even have the shoulder buttons for PPP and KKK. If X-men vs SF had been on N64 it would have really changed the landscape of the FGC as lots of Nintendo kids would have owned the game and introduced them to the genre.
Good people of /vr/.Aside from very, very few games, the N64 cart size was never a limiting factor. PSX/Saturn games needing to use multiple CDs was because of streaming (movies), not because the games themselves are huge. Look up the ISOs for Tekken 1 and 2. Open the ISO on your computer and look if there is a separate folder or just .STR files strewn around. Those are the movies. Add them all up together. See? Tekken 1, just the game (engine, textures and code) is barely 20 MB. The rest of the space is filled by movies and music.What about JRPGs? Same thing. Final Fantasy VII's game size without movies and music, all discs together, is a little below 150 MB. It all fits in a single disc.Most of the reasons for mult-disc games weren't technical, but business-related. Bigger graphics, bigger games.
>>11512496I recall there were even dummy files added later on, aptly named "DUMMY.STR" por "DUMMY.0" to fill the disc up. What was the reason for this? Believe it or not, it was to push the "real data" onto the edges of the burned disc, so the laser from the console had to do less work.I recall one game, Tiger Woods '99, had a dummy file called ZZDUMMY.DAT, which was a rename .AVI file containing Jesus vs Santa (a South Park pilot episode). It looks like the employee didn't know how to create a dummy file (an easy task for a programmer), so he just got a video from the internet and changed the extension.s
>>11511683Unless there was something in the hardware forbidding it, if you don't use 3D you can code it like it was for a SNES on steroids.Bust-A-Move '99 looked as good in the N64 as in the Neo Geo and I doubt Taito had to discover any hardware magic for it.
>>11512529Makes me wish the homebrew scene for N64 was stronger to see if native ports of some games were possible
>>11511645Because all the good fighting games were either on Sega Saturn or Playstation 1 such as Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Fighting Vipers, Dead Or Alive, Last Bronx, Bloody Roar, and Fighters Megamix.
>>11512496>The rest of the space is filled by movies and musicAnd this was a big reason to play home ports of arcade fightersThe N64 was limited to mostly text screens, no way in hell you'd get a dozen different FMV endings for each character on a single reasonably priced N64 cartMeanwhile on the PS1 a fighting game was considered shit not worth playing if it didn't have FMV endings for every character
>>11511706Yeah, alienating the biggest developers of the genre definitely had a way bigger effect than any hardware issues.
>>11511645Because the N64 library was too small and they couldn't fit enough games in it.
>>11511706>>11512738This, plus N64 did very poorly in Japan. PS1 ports were almost always guaranteed success worldwide even if they were stripped down and Saturn ports had a dedicated niche for die-hards, especially in Japan. CDs guaranteed much better profit margins over carts too.>>11512336Would be interesting to see how good CPS2 ports could be on 64. No load times. >>11512352The 64DD was too little too late. Added load times, more costly than CDs for less space, etc. It was an odd idea because even the FDS wasn't viable by the later Famicom era.
>>11512597Only games like Kirby Friend Adventure and Cute Animal Pet were allowed on the N64.
If they did 3d backgrounds for X-men vs Street Fighter 64 then they would have looked something like Mega Man 64.
>>11512990I think they would do something similar to the original game, but with perspective and some concessions for texture limitations, or something like KOF2003, 98UM and 2002UM for PS2, the same with the hit effects.
>>11512575Still waiting for that guy that was working on porting OpenLara to N64 to post an update.https://youtu.be/TNHlby2Ez9k
>>11512942Damn that sucks.
>>11512942my fav kirby friend adventure game is turok seeds of evil and my fav cute animal pet entry is shadow man.
>>11511645because nobody made anymortal kombat trilogy was the first one and it was a butchered port>ironically its the port used in tournaments
It had Killer Instinct Gold and Smash, nothing else was needed. Anyway, you bought an N64 for shooters and Zelder so you could have a normal childhood with pizza parties and sleepovers and grow up to have sex one day. Fightan and RPGs were not major concerns for 64chads.
>>11511645carts cost too much for games that would sell a few ten thousand only.>>11511723>The N64 controller uses the same d-pad as the SNES>Never understood this criticism people make.The fact it uses the same garbage d-pad is the problem.
>>11511957I think you might have gotten the game mixed up with SFA2 on the snes. That game was 32 mega bits.
GoldenEye was the nuke that killed the mainstream integrity of fighting games. There's a reason why the Dreamcast took a dirtnap and Xbox didn't.
>>11513358>There's a reason why the Dreamcast took a dirtnap and Xbox didn'tBecause MS has practically infinite money?
>>11511815>The Neo Geo works similar to the Genesis/SNES really, having a very low amount of RAM it needs to stream a lot from cart really.Genesis/SNES can only draw anything from VRAM. To draw from the cart, you have to load graphics into VRAM first. I don't know about the SNES but on the Genesis doing this during gameplay is prohibitively slow, it's why all FMVs and Virtua Racing ran at 5 fps max, since that's as fast as the system can update the display.Neogeo could draw sprites directly from the cart, and I think it could ONLY draw graphics straight from the cart. Some games did FMVs this way (Blazing Star, Matrimelee). Problem is that you can't compress data this way so you run out of space fast. Still, it could do it faster than the Genesis.
>>11511845>Could the N64 have done a respectable port of X-Men Vs. Street Fighter?Imagine the PSX port but with tag team allowed, it would've been like that due cartridge costs.
>>11512529>if you don't use 3D you can code it like it was for a SNES on steroids. You can't code N64 like a SNES on steroids. 16-bit sprite based consoles draw sprites per scanline right on the screen. 3D consoles draw everything into framebuffer before displaying it. And with N64 you also need to squeeze the graphics into the 4kb texture cache, you can't just take anything from VRAM like you can on PS1.
>>11513360Maybe Sega would have had infinite money if they didn't fuck up the the Saturn's launch and released an actual launch title for it
>>11511645Because carts and piss poor RAM, plus bilinear on textures and sprites
>>11511718Subdividing polygons is not a magic solution to load large high resolution textures, otherwise everyone would use it. The technique is mostly used for tiling small textures together on the walls and floors.
>>11511645Because the Saturn and Playstation had better 2D and 3D fighters respectively
>>11513174>writes gayest comment ever>refers to self as a "64chad"
>>11513557They fucked up by not designing it for 3D from the startAlso the Gaybona port was a fucking travesty compared to the PS1's Ridge Racer portThe Shiturn hardware is a fucking joke and the only way it could "mog" the PS1 at 2D games was with a 4MB RAM expansion
>>11513358Tekken 3 outsold Goldeneye. Tekken Tag outsold Perfect Dark.
>>11513578Tekken 3 barely outsold Goldeneye with a console base about 3x the N64. anon, is right, Goldeneye solidified console FPS as the next big thing and overnight Fighting games became for shut-in dorks.
>>11513881Goldeneye sold as much as it did because there was nothing else worth playing on N64 for the whole year except Diddy Kong Racing and fucking Turok. If you owned a N64 and didn't buy Goldeneye then there was something wrong with you.Tekken 3 was released the same year as Gran Turismo, Metal Gear Solid, Crash 3, Tomb Raider 3, Resident Evil 2, Spyro and each of them sold a lot. And yet, Tekken 3 outsold all of them except Gran Turismo.
>>11511645What do you mean? The system had a lot of (bad) fighting games.
>>11513881>Goldeneye solidified console FPS as the next big thingDidn't happen until Halo 2. Perfect Dark sales were much worse. GTA was legit the next big thing.
>>11513927i remember everyone playing Goldeneye back in the day. i don't remember one single person hyped on Tekken 3. fighting games were on their way out at that point
>>11513936Goldeneye sold roughly the same amount as Halo 2
>>11513937I remember everyone playing Tekken 3 back in the day and I don't remember anyone hyped on Goldeneye except those few who only had N64 at home. What is your point?
>>11513943So, which console first person shooters sold the same amount between 1997-2004? Assuming your claim that FPS was the next big thing circa Goldeneye is correct.
>>11511645A combination of people wanting to play 3D games + third parties barely producing software for the N64
>>11513881Factually incorrect, the real next big thing was 3D action adventure which covers Tomb Raider, Zelda OoT and GTA3. Meanwhile, fighting games were still more mainstream on consoles than first person shooters until the Xbox live era.
>>11513970those two were the big anchors for the genre but in between there was plenty of 1-4 million sellers, the aformentioned Perfect Dark, the first Halo obviously, the Medal of Honor series, more Bond games, the Turok series. and that doesn't include all of the pc ports, your Dooms, Hexen, Power Slave, Quake, Unreal Tournament. the genre was obviously on a boom while fighters were on a decline, at least in the west
>>11513992>fighting games were still more mainstream on consolesin japan
>>11513997forgot Metroid Prime
>>11512990That's the ps1 version tho
>>11513997>genre was obviously on a boom while fighters were on a declineCorrect but this didn't happen overnight in 1997 and didn't even happen by the start of the 6th gen. On PS2 Tekken 5 outsold every first person shooter. On Xbox Dead or Alive 3 outsold every first person shooter except Halo and Halo 2. On Gamecube, Prime 1 sold good enough but Prime 2 sold just as much as Soulcalibur II. There should be more best selling first person shooters during that period but there is none. By your logic, shooters were on decline too.>Dooms, Hexen, Power Slave, Quake, Unreal Tournament.Those barely sold on consoles at all. On Dreamcast, Soulcalibur was the second best selling game while Q3 and UT ports are not even top 20. Neither are Doom and Quake games on PS1 and N64.Look, Goldeneye was obviously huge but it was an exception rather than a norm and it still sold less that the best selling fighting game from the same period.
>GoldenEyeSold more than Halo 1. Did it at a time when much less people knew FPS.>Tekken, Virtua Fighter, Soul Calibur, whateverSold because Street Fighter had sold millions. Didn't properly survive into the 2000's.
>>11514126Did Goldeneye survive into the 2000's?
>>11514163Bond did until Activision fucked everything up
>>11514126>Sold more than Halo 1And? So did Tekken 3 and Tekken 5. Hell, Tekken 5 and T5 Dark Resurrection sold 10 million copies, which is more than Halo 2, right when fighting games were "on decline". We can play this numbers game all day long but it doesn't matter. Halo and CoD were the games which consistently sold a lot. Goldeneye was an anomaly af far as FPS sales go and the genre didn't reach the same heights during the N64 timelime. If they released Tekken on N64 it would have sold a lot. If they made Soulcalibur 64, it would've sold less but still a lot. Not Goldeneye or Tekken 3 numbers obviously but Perfect Dark's 2.5 mil - most likely. 3D fighters were at the peak of their popularity during that time. The demand was big among the N64 players.
>>11513358Smash Bros. also did a huge amount of damage.Before Smash people played other fighting games at get-togethers.
>>11514775That was Melee. Nobody played Smash 64.
>>11513562It's the solution here.
>>11514163Halo is the sequel to Goldeneye.
>>11514790I didn't specify Smash 64.>nobody played Smash 64very incorrect.
>>11514039Yes, but FPS games were basically only selling in the west and fighting games were only selling in Japan. the age of Street Fighter 2 and Mortal Kombat was over.
>>11514236look if you were alive at the time you'd remember the arcades dying out and every kid playing Goldeneye, Turok, Medal of Honor and then Halo, Cod whatever a few years later. Fighting games still sold in Japan, and that's why sales were still decent for a few franchises, but no one was playing that shit in the west. Goldeneye did change everything over here.
>>11514003Calling Metroid Prime an FPS is like calling a golf cart a sports car.It's a car you use to play a sport, but it is absolutely not a fucking sports car.
>>11512395>B - jab>A - short>< - strong>\/ - forward>/\ - fierce>> - roundhouseYou come off as some fag who read instruction manuals but is too autistic to realize that nobody actually uses those words.
>>11512496>Tekken 1, just the game (engine, textures and code) is barely 20 MB. The rest of the space is filled by movies and music.Yeah, but movies and music are part of the game.You might as well say that if you got rid of the color and made it 2D you could lower the filesize to under a megabyte and run it on the Game Boy DMG.
>>11515229it's really not that different from earlier exploration based FPS games like Power Slave and Turok (same team that made Prime). it's also symbolic of the domination of the genre that Nintendo turned one of their most well known franchises into an FPS
>>11512416>B and A are even arrange in a comfortable SNES Y & B while still having 6 face buttons!How's the dpad tough?
>>11512496N64 carts could only go up to 64 MegaBYTES! (512 Megabits)
>>11512171Capcom was using some Sony hardware in arcades too and barely half ass released anything for the N64 in general, SPEAKING OF WHICH, this whole sprite argument is basically irrelevant because the N64 got fuck all 3D graphics fighting games either. Really that's a lot of the core of it even, Sony got Namco, Konami, Capcom, and Taito all on board for PS1 based arcade boards while the Ultra 64 was a Midway thing and go figure that's pretty much the split of what got released on PlayStation and N64. It's easy to forget this, but basically by the time the N64 came out the PlayStation and/or Saturn already had Super Turbo, CotA, Darkstalkers, SFA1, SFA2, SFTM, Night Warriors, KoF95, SamSho III, and Fatal Fury 3, so the N64 had already missed the bus when it came to ports of CPS2 and Neo Geo games.
>>1151529664mb carts were prohibitively expensive as well, very few games ever used one. 16mb and 32mb were most common, most early games used 8mb carts! While PSX developers had 700mb to play with from the get go
I dunno I enjoyed some like Flying Dragon 1 and 2, KI Gold, Rakuga Kids and Super Robot Spirits
>>11512529>if you don't use 3D you can code it like it was for a SNES on steroids.The n64 can't do real 2d. It uses billboards.
>>11515236>nobody actually uses those words.Anyone who plays SF2 and *doesn't* use those words is strictly a casual and secondary.
>>11515660>doubles down and admits he's some "casual" hating autistlmao
>>11515660I hate those words because never made sense and became obsolete by Lx, Mx and Hx.
>>11515321Konami did put out Deadly Arts on N64, it's fucking terrible but they did release something.
>>11512227>joystickyou dunno shit about fighting games
Who keeps making this fake threads?
