Why are western SRPGs like XCOM not considered to be RPGs?After all, Jap SRPGs like FF Tactics have very similar mechanics and they're not only recognized as RPGs but enjoy prestige here as high-IQ games that filter normies.
If you need to ask you don't belong on this board.
>>3524276
>>3524278fpbp
What's the best XCOM like game? JA3, Phoenix?
>>3524276>Why are western SRPGs like XCOM not considered to be RPGs?They're not, which is why JA2 isn't. Also, X-COM looks like picrel, FYI.
I remember playing X-COM 2 and my mission went completely wrong. I had to do something stupid like infiltrate a base and destroy a labratory. The mission spawns infinite aliens once the alarm is raised, causing all but one of my men to be killed. Somehow, against all odds, that one guy infiltrated the base and killed about 70 aliens all on his own. It took hours to complete with zero save scumming. Anyone else have XCOM stories like that?
>>3524462>>3524445dont try to force this faggot, this is the wrong board
>>3524495>skills>levels>perks>known as a TRPG for the past 40 yearsshit in some other thread, nigger
>>3524500You already have a general on /vst/ and /vg/. You don't need another. What compels retards to constantly test the waters and try to go further and further off topic? Play an actual RPG or fuck off, its so fucking easy. What do you gain by being an enormous nuisance?
>>3524276It doesn't matter because nucom is dogshit and there's no reason to discuss it here.
>>3524503
>>3524505nta but you make off topic threads all the time and post this in every thread when you get shit on
>>3524506
>>3524276JRPGs and SRPGs aren't RPGs, we're just forced to share a board with them because the Japs named them without understanding what an RPG is. Their entire games industry is basically founded on a fundamental misunderstanding about what makes WRPGs worth playing.
>>3524276FFT is neither FF nor an rpg. That aside, troglodytes call everything an rpg nowadays. Partly because rpg elements have bled into every other genre.
>>3524678The early jrpgs weren't that different from wrpgs, since they just copied them and simplified the gameplay for console goobers.
>>3524276Because "thing, Japan :o"
>>3524722Well, yes and no I would say. While actual roleplaying wasn't a big part of early c"rpgs" the few mechanics they did have (like the alignment system in Wizardry) were all on the chopping block for the design of Dragon Quest.
>>3524450Aged better than ur mum
>>3524276because you either make 20th Morrowind thread or suck off some literal who JRPG on /vrpg/, anything else challenges the status quo /vst/ does not talk about Xcom 1-2 only open xcom derivatives in their echo chamber
>>3524714FFT is almost an RPG. The game is played from Ramza's point of view and he is a unit on the field.Take the protagonist off the field and make the story more mission-oriented and military and it becomes a tactics game that isn't an RPG.The reason this line is blurry is that tactical combat is the core and origin of RPGs. An RPG is a wargame where you play as the units on the field and go on adventures through wilderness and dungeons and fight GM-controlled foes instead of PvP against rival troop commanders. FFT is missing proper dungeons and that's it, really.
>>3524276>FF Tactics>high-IQ games that filter normies.
>>3525947*laughs in Deep Dungeon*
>>3525949Yeah. I love FFT but it was literally a game for children, we were kids when it came out.
>>3525950Yeah, it's not a proper dungeon
>>3524276>Why are western SRPGs like XCOM not considered to be RPGs?Who are you roleplaying as?
>>3526034a god
>>3524276Because the original X-com doesn't feel like an RPG at all and every AP/sight range type game is an X-com derivative. Your characters don't qualitatively get much stronger, 95% of your progress is tech and equipment related, and doing the final mission with nothing but rookies isn't really that big of a deal.The exception is psi training but even then it has kind of an anti-RPG spin where nothing you can do improves the hidden psi strength stat, you can only batch test looking for a good one.It's really a showcase of how you can make the "RPG = stats go up" definition feel inadequate to talk about what actually plays like an RPG
>>3526034I roleplay as Commander, leader of a secret international military force which protects the Earth from alien incursions. My brain is so advanced that I can observe a battlefield and run calculations in my head at such an advanced speed that it appears to me as if the battlefield and its units were frozen in time while I consider which orders to issue to my subordinates. I later roleplay that I am kidnapped by ayylmaos who trap me in a virtual reality machine for many years so they can study my advanced brain while they successfully conquer Earth, before I am later rescued by my former subordinates so that I can take command of an underground guerilla resistance force to oppose the alien occupation of Earth.
>>3524504Nu-XCOM has very atmospheric colours and lighting which give a strong vibe.Old-XCOM has gentle pastel colours that really undersells the suspense of sweeping through a large alien craft trying to find the aliens before they find you.
>>3528012> Old-XCOM has gentle pastel colours that really undersells the suspense of sweeping through a large alien craft trying to find the aliens before they find you.The music and the sound effects carry things hard. You now hear the tense tactical combat music and alien plasma fire and screaming civilians during the hidden movement phase.
>>3526034Btw this: >>3527033Is simultaneously correct and shows why xcom is not considered an RPG.In a real RPG the only way to roleplay as a commander like that is to work your way up to it over many campaigns, and even then will still likely be more oriented around the full details of the commander's daily life than the distilled role of troop leader.
>>3528613>the only way to roleplay as a commander like that is to work your way up to it over many campaignsmost of the RPGs make you play as le chosen one that everybody is eager to join, listen to and obey every commandshut the fuck up
>>3526107>every AP/sight range type game is an X-com derivative>Your characters don't qualitatively get much stronger, 95% of your progress is tech and equipment related, and doing the final mission with nothing but rookies isn't really that big of a deal.This is not the case in any game past Jagged Alliance 2. In new XCOMs you'll get raped if you keep losing your troops en masse and don't have high level soldiers with proper skills and perks. Even in Xenonauts, basically a modern clone of original X-Com, fresh trooper would get raped by late game aliens.You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
>>3528652Missing the point makes you an idiot.
Nucom is for literal retarded redditors. I would consider playing it as offensive as owning skyrim.
Skyrim is almost old enough to post here.
>>3528689The point you made is fucking idiotic and is disproven by 99% of RPGs ever. But go on, proceed to prove that real RPG is only when you can pet your cat on your spaceship
I miss /xcg/ can't even talk about Xcom, stuck with grognards ovulating over pixelated cat girls in game vaguely resembling Xcom
>>3528898To be fair troubleshooter is at least 300000000x better than nucom and an actual rpg
>>3528661I'm not saying the genre is still not RPGish (I don't know, I never even played Xenonauts), I'm saying the originator was not RPGish and its descendants aren't casually talked about like SRPGs even if they really should be because of that
>>3528927*and obviously the xcom remakes aren't AP games at all
>>3526034its just voices in his head
>>3528899no and I was talking about X piratez I'll be honest with you open Xcom fags are more obnoxious than tendies every time Xcom or Xcom-like thread pops up on /v/ you faggots show up to shill your shit shitting up the thread in the processvery organic
>>3528710Wrong. You clearly have no experience with RPGs. Welcome to /vrpg/ you will fit right in.
>>3528613Nah, the problem with Commander is that Commander isn't a unit on the battlefield. If Commander were actually on the battlefield then XCOM would qualify as an RPG.XCOM itself specifically isn't an RPG, but there are XCOMlike games that are.
>>3529193>the problem with Commander is that Commander isn't a unit on the battlefieldLiterally nothing stops you from claiming one the soldiers as your avatar. Well nothing except your imagination which le roleplaying fans have zero of.
>>3529514Even if you roleplay as someone else, the game will continue to tell you that you're Commander.
>>3529526>roleplay as someone elseYou don't roleplay as someone else, you're still a commander who's also on the field.
>>3529193Nothing you wrote disagrees with me.
>>3529514The game isn't designed around that idea. It's a subtle concept, brainlets have a hard time understanding why it matters, but it does. There are lots of little minor details about the way the game is presented and it's content is designed that flow from this difference in perspective.Even midwits get stumped by the difference between a squad-based tactics game and a full party RPG where you roleplay as 3-6 units simultaneously.
>>3529652I don't think it's really a matter of understanding, there's just a continuitycontrolling 4-8 people in a blobber feels like an RPG even if theoretically you are playing as the disembodied spirit of adventure controlling all of their destinies. In wizardry sometimes you even need to play as a separate rescue party to recover the bodies of your primary party. but RPG concerns still dominate like the growth of the party and their individual lives.but the original x-com just doesn't feel that way. individuals are disposable and real progress is tied to technology and equipment. individual soldier growth is just a simulation of reality rather than a gameplay focus and it's not particularly important. the player is often addressed directly as a commander (like in the monthly budgets), so you actually are a character in the game but you have no level up style growth. Just by summing up lots of small elements it adds up to not having the feel of an RPG
>>3528927>I'm not saying the genre is still not RPGishBut that's what you clearly implied>>3528930>*and obviously the xcom remakes aren't AP games at allI don't what they are according to youA term>AP/sight range type gameis so moronic that you could lump Fallout there no problem>>3529699Lmao you're judging a whole genre of games by one title that came out 30 years ago and still you're half wrong
>>3529732work on your english comprehension boris
>>3524722>The early jrpgs weren't that different from wrpgsThat's arguable. They weren't that different from games like Wizardry, but Wizardry isn't the only type of RPG.Either way it's not really relevant. WRPGs were an early attempt to translate some of the essence of tabletop RPGs into a singleplayer computer game. JRPGs were simply an imitation of WRPGs. There's an entirely different thought process behind them and as such they completely miss the point. Of course they both developed in their own ways as time went on, but it's still extremely rare that a JRPG even attempts to be an actual RPG.
>>3529777Work on your arguments nigger
>>3529699>I don't think it's really a matter of understanding, there's just a continuityBased on experience, it's a matter of understanding. Even the idea of a continuity is beyond the grasp of most /v/ermin infesting this board.>feels like an RPGEven though it's true, it doesn't answer the question of why. Why does one game where you control 6 units in tactical combat feel different from another game where you control 6 units in tactical combat? All I'm saying is that there are a bunch of little details that add up to the meaningful difference in resulting "feel." >>3529860>Either way it's not really relevant.Similarity to Wizardry is very relevant, although tangential.>There's an entirely different thought process behind themIt's not "entirely different." Different, yes. "Entirely" different? No.And this is the part that's not relevant at all. JRPGs did not "miss the point." They focused on and evolved different elements of what was already a complex, multi-faceted, nebulously defined genre. More importantly, they primarily developed the most "uniquely RPG" elements of the genre (adventuring, dungeon crawling and turn-based combat). This means that, linguistically speaking, there was no better term than RPG for Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy. It doesn't matter however short they may fall from your retard arbitrary headcanon definition of RPG, console JRPGs are undeniably a subgenre of RPGs. The semantics for this evolved quite reasonably over time. Incidentally, in my experience the term "JRPG" wasn't even very common until the late 90s. The terms I always saw were console vs computer.>even attempts to be an actual RPG.It's abundantly clear your concept of an "actual RPG" is flawed.
>>3525947>>3524276Warlords BattleCry and Warcraft 3 campaigns are SRPGs. X-Com is not.some of the official custom maps in WC3 Expansion are literally RPGs though, but played with RTS mechanics.
>>3530766>literally RPGs though, but played with RTS mechanics"literally platformers, but played with racing sim mechanics".
>>3531103>"literally platformers, but played with racing sim mechanics".I love Sonic the Hedgehog.
>>3531109what brand of wheel do you use?
>>3531117Falcon Northwest
>>3531118lol, poor guy
>>3524276All those tactic games you mentioned...aren't rpgs. Doesn't mean you can't make a tactic rpg, just look at Devil Survivor.
>>3531124More like rich guy
>>3524276>Commander, who you play as, has no stats, skills, levels, dialogue choices or any other vaguely RPG element associated with him>The team you order around have no narrative impact at all and also only get stronger equipment-wise>At no point is one of the fighters you, the player.So you don't level, you can't make narrative decisions, you don't fight etc. This isn't an RPG, it's a military simulator/strategy game. If this could count as an RPG then so could Age of Empires. As you can level up troops to the next tech level of strength.
>>3531149more like well off moron, but then that describes most older furfags
The most annoying not-RPG game I see mentioned is Darkest Dungeon.
>>3524276Jap SRPGs like FF tactics are not considered RPGs, they are considered JRPGs. /vrpg/ is for role playing games and JRPGs. If a japanese person made an xcom clone it would be discussed on /vrpg/.
>>3531103>>3531109there's a racing custom map in WC3 but no SANIC.https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Azeroth_Grand_Prixalso fan made RPG maps...https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads/daemonic-sword-orpg.210092/
>>3531103https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/The_Founding_of_Durotarfactcheck it. cums in 3 acts that can be played in any order.>The bonus campaign differs from the main part of the game as it is viewed in perspective (i.e. buildings appear in correct proportion to units) and the traditional strategy style of the game is largely replaced with adventuring, questing, levelling and unraveling the story. The object of the campaign is to complete quests while developing your heroes' abilities, similar to the World of Warcraft style of play.
>>3528661How is xenonauts anyways? Been meaning to pick it up.
>>3531395>cumsback to goldshire, creature
>>3531461icum to ork games. not hobbits.
>>3524276Because it's not an rpg. Battle Brothers is an example of a western "SRPG"
>>3524276If I had to say it's anything it's your role is as the faceless commander. It's a non-entity that does not really exist no hero boy with a big sword or player created avatar that has to go through thousands of dialog lines about how the aliens are blowing up earth it's there to give you an excuse to control a squad of soldiers and run a base. The bare minimum to make the game setting work.
>>3531138FF Tactics is a billion times more RPG than Devil Survivor
>>3524276Simple.Not enough RPG in XCOM.If it were an RPG, then each soldier would've had the ability to increase their stats and freely choose from a gamut of skills depending on their level.Not to mention each would have their own background expanded massively compared to what XCOM2 gave us, their own sets of personalities, tempers, quirks, likes and dislikes, strengths and weaknesses and more.And don't get me started that if XCOM were an RPG, then you'd have your soldiers interact with NPCs and take quests like in RPGs. Along with a gamut of other RPG related things that are not in XCOM.So no. XCOM is not an RPG.
>>3524276We do in fact consider Jagged Alliance 3 an RPG but do not consider XCOM and RPG, Do you know why that is OP? Guess what one game does that the other does not.
>>3533855Aliens
>>3531436Not the guy you're replying to, but for me it has the paid wad issue where it's competent and all but there's objectively no reason(well, one reason, the dogfighting minigame and maybe its unorthodox depiction of laser weapons) to play it over OpenXCOM+any vanilla+ mod(Final Mod Pack is one of my favorites but you may get sick of the focus on captures for advancing tech that the author keeps shoving into his mods).The game for lack of a better word feels extremely sterile, nothing about it is particularly bad but it's nothing that's a must play is how I felt.I cannot comment on Xenonauts 2 as I haven't even played the demos.>>3533855Is it the deep moral and ethical choices contained within the IMP quiz?
A janny made this thread.
>>3533864That's not it, Earthbound has aliens too and yet Earthbound is an RPG.
>>3533855>We do in fact consider Jagged Alliance 3 an RPGNo "we" don't. You have to be actually mentally challenged to believe that.
>>3524276>Why are western SRPGs like XCOM not considered to be RPGs?Because most people here are casual shitters who ape at having taste/discernment.XCOM isn't an RPG to them because you cannot make Commander use the lavatory, or customize his beard colour, or "romance" one of his "companions".Let's look at how XCOM compares to the original RPGs (tabletop):-squad of 4-6 guys of different complementary classes (warrior, cleric)-they explore a fairly large non-linear map with differing terrain (dungeons)-encounters hostile lifeforms of various types (i.e. orcs, goblins),-engages them in complex positional tactical combat with hit percentages (dice rolls)-using limited resources like grenades (vancian magic)-they loot things like meld cannisters and alien alloys (treasure chests, mithril ore)-after the mission (quest) is done our guys may promote (level up) and learn new abilities (feats)-they also get a reward in credits (gold) from the Council (the king)-they return to base (adventurer's guild) where they do things like purchase equipment, hire new party members, try to learn psionics (study magic spells), and recover from wounds.-the base can be excavated and new facilities like a gene lab constructed (build an alchemy shack)-often the commander must chose which mission to pursue and forgo the others, other times missions can be delayed for short or long periods at the risk of missing them or facing stronger opposition in them (choices and consequences)-if the party fails too many missions the Council surrenders to the ETs and mankind is doomed (campaign is lost, better luck next time)And how does /VRPG/ respond to all this?*basedfaced grimace*"Yikes, that's not an RPG, sweety."*Goes back to mashing A in Dragon Queef*
>>3534411>Because most people here are casual shitters who ape at having taste/discernment.>XCOM isn't an RPG to them because you cannot make Commander use the lavatory, or customize his beard colour, or "romance" one of his "companions".It's not an rpg because it's not player vs environment, it's player versus aliens. (AI simulating a human opponent in a zero sum contest) Which is what seperates a tabletop rpg from a wargame. And if we were to allow such games there's no reason to tolerate nucom anyways because it's normieslop and there are far better digital wargames.
>>3534411>Let's look at how XCOM compares to the original RPGs (tabletop):Fuck off /tg/>>3534415Fuck off troonimai poster
>>3534415That seems needlessly arbitrary, can you elaborate? A zero sum contest in what sense? Player vs environment in what sense? It sounds like in your definition Wizardry 1-3 wouldn't be considered RPGs, nor would classic D&D played in the style of a megadungeon crawl.
>>3533844so Chimera Squad is an rpg?
>RPG:You tell your characters what to do.>Strategic RPG:Your characters are leaders who tell other characters what to do, but your characters also participate in the main gameplay loop.>Strategy and not an RPG:Your characters are leaders who tell other characters what to do, but your characters do not participate in the main gameplay loop.>>3534440Your character in Chimera Squad does not participate in the main gameplay loop.
>>3534435>It sounds like in your definition Wizardry 1-3 wouldn't be considered RPGsIn Wizardry you control a party and fight the environment. I fear you did not read my post at all and are just dumping unrelated thoughts stuck in your low functioning autistic head, and as such this will be my last reply because I am dissapointed in you and you are wasting my time. You are conflating wargames' rule-based character representation with RPG mechanics, but if you were to play a tactical layer wargame you'll find they all have units which level up/progress and have equipment, are named, have resource management, etc, but RPGs are rather player set goals within a scenario. So the person who is overlooking the rules in a wargame now takes the role of game master in an RPG, and is one part of the "opponent" for a group of players who collaborate to tell a story rather than compete with each other, insofar as he is the arbitrator who weaves the players' stories together into an adventure, creating environments and controlling NPCs and so forth, and the other part is the campaign or scenario. In Wizardry we have many unexpected things that can happen despite being a "straight forward" dungeon crawl, due to the mechanics and dungeon design enabling a dynamic adventure, whereas a wargame cannot tell a very dynamic story beyond simulating and executing battle plans and any narrative laid over top of it would be a disconnected metagame.
MENACE 1-5, TIME IS RUNNING OUT. YOU NEED TO CONVINCE /VRPG/ THAT XCOM IS AN RPG
>>3534445I'm not the anon you replied to originally, so I don't know why you're being so snarky. You posted a reply without saying what you actually meant, because it could be interpreted multiple ways, and I was curious.I'm also not sure by your post if you've actually completed Wizardry 1-3. There's absolutely nothing unexpected or dynamic about them, they're all simple straight forward dungeon crawls with a single goal in mind (get to the bottom, kill the big bad or grab the macguffins, and go back). The RPG mechanics in Wiz 1-3 start and end at selecting a class for each character and leveling them up (remember, no skills to select or manually raise in those early games.) So if you genuinely consider Wizardry 1-3 as RPGs, which from your post it sounds like you do (probably because you haven't played them and don't realize they don't meet your criteria), then you should fairly consider XCOM as the same. Both of them center around a stable of randomly generated troops lead by a faceless leader (you) leaving their base to fight and loot to come back and get stronger and do it all over again until you're strong enough to face off against the final threat. XCOM is arguably more dynamic and different run to run because of the random events, drops for research and map pool while every Wizardry 1-3 playthrough is the same outside of random encounters which doesn't really mean much.
>>3534459>>3534445Also, "fight the environment", wtf do you actually mean by that? You don't have multiple ways to approach shit or multiple factions or choices or endings or whatever the fuck in the first few Wizardry games. You don't have ways to affect the environment in 1-3. You're just moving around, picking up key items, killing trash mobs until you hit the last floor. So wtf does that mean?
The only way I could see it working is if the commander was a player made avatar in an entirely new game to maintain the same level of anonymous autonomy.
>>3534500Still not an rpg. When you play as napoleon in a napoleonic wargame it's not roleplaying.
>>3534411>Let's look at how XCOM compares to the original RPGs (tabletop):
>>3524276>Why are western SRPGs like XCOM not considered to be RPGs?They are. Rpgfags constantly try to claim Jagged Alliance as an rpg
>>3524276big old S on the front there son.
>>3534520>play as napoleon in a napoleonic wargameBased Napoleon roleplayer in his Napoleonic RPGs.>>3534629Neither Jagged Alliance nor nu-XCOM are RPGs.>t. RPGfag
>>3534629Those are just slavs
>>3534629There are two types of RPG fans. those who think JA2 is an RPG and those who are correct.
>>3534629And they are correct. Only trannies on /vrpg/ think that JA or Deus Ex are not RPGs and then go on to jerkoff to garbage VN like Disco Elysium
Why is it so hard for retards to play an actual rpg? I can guarantee the retard that made this thread isn't posting about a single decent game on this board and never has. Why do you need all the garbage you like to be an rpg? You don't like rpgs.
>>3534713Every day some complete fucking idiot floods the entire front of the catalogue with total garbage. His sole purpose for being here is shit up the place and jerk off over bethesda and console bioware.
>>3534629>legit retards say that anything with stats is a RPGIn other news: water is wet.
>>3534713Recommend me some RPG to play then
>>3534719>Every day some complete fucking idiot floods the entire front of the catalogue with total garbage.We know, anon, we can see your posts you know
>>3534713Retard who doesn't know what an RPG is.Tactics games are the closest genre RPGs it's perfectly reasonable to have a some mild overlap and confusion. They are undeniably closer to RPGs than the CYOA general.
>>3534793>They are undeniably closer to RPGs than the CYOA general.DnD started out as a war game with characters that got extra names and stats. RPGs are a sub-genre of strat wargames.at least according to /tg/ /his/.CYOA is kinda related to the CYOA books of the 80s which sort of evolves into Gamebooks which were like simplified DnD. but all the current fags in CYOA are too young and stupid or chink to know that.
>>3534793>>3535638You keep bumping the thread because your sole mission here is to shit up the board and I'm sure you're masturbating furiously over the idea of having another off topic thread you will turn into a permanent fixture here.
>>3524276>>3535638>>3534793>>3534713I got a ban once for posting about CK3, a game where you play a character with stats that level up and influence how your character plays, while immersed in a world you make choices in. I admit that it is a 4x strategy, but it's more of an RPG than half of the shit posted here. Some games are both strategy and RPGs
>>3535737>CK3>4x strategyyou don't understand genres in general, huh?
>>3535755grand strategy, whatever
>>3535758yeah, be correct and give a shit about being correct.
>>3535755>4xeXpandDeus XvultIncestXReddit Xmemes
>>3535774moar liek the size of your waistband, brah
>the "CK3 is a RPG" retards also believe it is a 4X gameYou can't make this shit up.
>>3535758Its barely even a grand strategy game. It's more like a map painter/reddit post generator.
I like Paradox games (started with eu2 and hoi, I’ll admit Paradox went to shit after going public though, their newer games are mostly pretty meh now) and I tried CK3 and thought it was just super boring and permanently dropped it after a few weeks. You can roleplay in any strategy game but that doesn’t make it an RPG, either.
