>Mistake #4 - Misunderstanding Randomness: Here Tim lays out his frustration with the sorts of people who can't believe they could miss a 95% chance-to-hit attack three times in a row. His conclusion is that when people talk about "randomness", they often mean selecting a token rather than rolling a dice (ie, events can't repeat themselves).
>Mistake #5 - Forcing Linearity: This one is pretty self-explanatory. Tim says games are not movies, using Fallout's Tandi rescue scenario with its multiple solutions as an example of the sort of non-linearity he prizes.
>Mistake #6 - Being Non-Reactive: Tim seems particularly interested in the sort of reactivity where characters in the world have different dispositions based on your character's background, clothing and attributes, as seen in Arcanum. He also loves having different end slides based on the player's choices in the game, using Temple of Elemental Evil's evil ending as an example.
>Mistake #7 - Telling Horrible Stories: Tim uses this to emphasize again that games are not movies. Not every character in a game has to be important or advance the plot. Tropes likes the Chosen One protagonist and amnesiac protagonist are tiresome and should be discarded.
>source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEewLWDpscA
Uh... bros how we are going to recover?

>>3541336
Considering we largely ignored the advice the last 7 fucking years, pretty easily, you retarded slowpoke.

>>3541335
Tim's opinions and advice are agreeable. If a game followed his guidelines and succeeded in everything.. it would be a good game.

It was a series of retarded, short sighted platitudes and objectively wrong takes back then and it still is now
Might as well take Icycalm seriously

>>3541340
Wildstar largely failed because he had the last word on everything.

Yeah no shit lol fo1 is the simplest crpg by a mile, it’s the only reason pseuds like it so much

>>3541335
>>3541336
Absolutely agree.

>>3541335
>Tim thinks character creation in Fallout, Arcanum and other RPGs was too complex.
I'm gonna have to disagree. You just slide some stats back and forth and pick a few skills, it's nothing crazy. The only issue in those games is one that you can never really fix no matter how much you dumb things down, which is that making your character at the start is always asking the player to make important decisions before they've played the game. Even if the game only simply asks if you want to be a fighter, thief, or mage, that's still a decision that will affect your whole playthrough being made before you know what exactly it'll affect and if you'll think it's the right choice in retrospect. The only way to "fix" this is not let the player build their character at all or to make the choice not even matter.

>For example, he says the player's first attack against an enemy should always hit even if his overall hit percentage is the same regardless, and that rather than allow players to increase their critical hit chance, they should only be allowed to increase their critical hit damage.
That's just retarded.

>choice and consequence
>user experience
did this really need that many words

>>3541447
>Yeah no shit lol fo1 is the simplest crpg by a mile, it’s the only reason pseuds like it so much
Or people enjoyed it when they were kids and are still fond of it for that reason. I’d never go
>um akshually it’s the best and deepest and most complicated game ever
Though

>>3541455
>decisions before they've played the game
Playing a RPG for the first time kinda sucks because of this. I've had trouble getting invested because I wonder if I end up having to restart like almost always. And replaying the beginning with a new character often sucks too.

I remember going into Dark Souls blind, and the Hunter class conjured up images that didn't quite match the actual gameplay. Luckily the starting class doesn't matter much, and you build your character as you go.

I would make a game that puts you in the game, introduces itself properly, and then asks the questions on how you want to proceed.

>geometric shapes aren't a way to represent numbers
Is it early onset of dementia?

Also
>X are tiresome and should be discarded.
Suggesting something that is over-represented to be reduced in numbers is fine, saying "it be badwrong n sheeeit, shut it down!" is retarded.
>(mis)using "tropes" unironically
Don't be like that, anons.

>>3541455
>I'm gonna have to disagree. You just slide some stats back and forth and pick a few skills, it's nothing crazy.
Think of the children. No, really, you must realize it's no longer the '90s and modern audiences (i.e. about 95% phoneshitters) can't into a lot of things.

>>3541335
Wow a competitor for Sanctimoniously Wrong Asshole, I never thought anyone could dethrone Sawyer on this.

>>3541335
>Tim thinks character creation in Fallout, Arcanum and other RPGs was too complex
Agreed. I don't know what 90% of those skills do until I put a few hours into gameplay or read wiki articles.
>He's experimenting with creating a completely numberless character system that uses geometric shapes to visualize attributes
Huh? That doesn't solve the issue.

>>3541697
>Agreed. I don't know what 90% of those skills do until I put a few hours into gameplay or read wiki articles.
This is needless hyperbole, what you mean is you don't know how useful they will be. Which is a problem from after character creation, where skills aren't represented equally in gameplay.

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>>3541719
It's not that. Gameplay is very complex. You have AP, sequence, armor class, DT, and DR. Then you have two sets of skills: SPECIAL and your skills. The skills increase based on your SPECIAL, and certain things are locked away from having low SPECIAL stats. It makes no sense unless you're willing to read about how they all work. Adding on top of that complexity is how strength affects inventory, endurance affects HP, and intelligence affects your leveling.

As others have already said, Fallout is one of the LEAST complex RPGs. That shit above pales in comparison to the autism other RPGs had in the 90's. I think to address this issue, you have to become more creative in how to approach game design. I would re-design Fallout like so
>AP is the same for every build. You either lose or gain AP based on perks, armor and ingestible
>Sequence should be scrapped. It should be player's turn, and then the enemy's turn
>Armor Class should be scrapped.
>DT can stay the same.
>DR should be scrapped. Two ways of doing damage is redundant.
>combine skills that are redundant (big guns + small guns, speech + barter, medicine + doctor, unarmed + melee + throwing, sneak + lockpick + steal)
>scrap traps, outdoorsman, and gambling
>No more SPECIAL. Integrated into perks and skills
>Inventory capacity increases with perks, ingestible, or backpacks. Add a wagon system similar to Daggerfall.
>HP increases on level up. Perks can give extra HP.
>every weapon has their own critical chance
>Traits no longer conflict and can take as many as you want
>Add a retard trait in order to not lose the funny low intelligence builds

Now you have a very straight forward character creation without sacrificing too much gameplay. You still have build variety, but with a much greater importance on perks and equipment. You're free to disagree, I just think RPGs make a lot of head scratching decisions simply because of a board game made in 1974.

>>3541571
right? i'm like, it's on a computer, it's gonna have to boil down to a number eventually.

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>>3541571
>>geometric shapes aren't a way to represent numbers
Based and 3/4/5 triangle pilled

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>>3541335
>tips to make rpgs for mouthbreathers that dont like rpgs

>>3541335
washed up faggot

He is a coder. He didn't design it. He didn't write it.

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>>3541571
He was ahead of his time.

>>3541335
Too gay; didn't read.

>>3542092
Anon, I hate Americans as much as the next civilized person, but let's be honest here,
those gadgets are British invention.

>>3541335
Reminder that Fallout is bad and was always bad.

everything this dude is bitching about is a result of copying dungeons and dragons. action rpgs and jrpgs never went that route. try being original and come up with your own shit, boomer.

>>3541455
>You just slide some stats back and forth and pick a few skills, it's nothing crazy.
What you have done is over estimate the average intelligence of normalfags. You also have to remember that 50% of people are also of below average intelligence.

>>3544131
Where do you spergs get the idea that video games demand intelligence? Everyday life is more complex. Go outside and have a life.

>>3541437
>Wildstar
Ah man that one hurt. I wanted that to be good so bad.

>>3541335
And yet these old complex games are cherished to this day. The way I see it, it really is simple - complex is harsh at the beginning and satisfying later, simple is neat at the beginning and boring later.

So yeah if you just want to sell most copies make it dumb, make all the filthy casuals happy. But if you want to make something great, make it complex.

>>3544134
anon, if you actually went outside you'd see the masses of people unable to comprehend everyday life and simply going through the motions set by those who came before. you are a midwit, so you aren't able to grasp exactly the overwhelming disparity in intelligence that humans have.

>>3544177
>some people aren't smart
>so video game smart
Nope, sorry.

>>3541335
Streamlining things for braindead masses has never had beneficial effects for anyone except for shareholders' profits. Not everything should be "intuitively pick up and understand".

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>>3541335
>>3541336
which is funny because his mindset perhaps explains why TOW was such a mediocre game.

>>3541437
>>3544148
if what he says in his videos is half the truth wildstar development was one hell of a ride

>>3541804
It's also easy to overlook all that because it's knowledge you already have as you gradually acquired it over the years of playing RPGs. Just genre conventions we all take for granted.

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>>3541574
>>X are tiresome and should be discarded.
Ah yes, the ye old Bethesda formula.

>>3544204
It makes sense when you have so many skills that go from 1 to 100 but they don't affect gameplay, only allow you to pass checks. For example, there's no point in having 72 hacking if the minimum requirement to unlock a pc is 75.
Now this is not to say that one single point in a skill shouldn't matter, like if you're crafting a spell in morrowind, but if you don't have something like that, might as well be novice, apt, master instead of 0-100

>>3544195
if that's what you got from my post, you might be actually be sub-midwit.

>>3541804
>board game
Post invalidated.

>>3544225
Or don't make static unmodfiable threshold checks at all, like in Morrowind.

>>3544249
Well yeah everyone would agree I'm pretty sure

>>3544251
It's sad how bad FO3 lockpicking was, really. You have to pass a static check to play an awful minigame in order to open a lock. Complete retards designed that game.

>>3541335
Funny, they don't ship any good games, besides their (((knowledge)))

>>3544253
I don't see why it was bad at all. It's realistic to have some locks out of your league until you study them.

>>3544197
I think the issue is that The Outer Worlds was compared to Fallout and Skyrim, when really it wasn't trying to be that. It was much more focused. And then on top of that was a layer of reddit humor. On top of that was shitty shooting gameplay. The game was a pile of shit before anyone could get to stats.

>>3545343
>The Outer Worlds was compared to Fallout and Skyrim
Bethesda raised the standards, and reaching those standards requires tons of effort that people take for granted anyways. We'll see if upcoming first person RPGs will somehow make up for the fact that take can't provide the full "Bethesda game" experience.

>>3545343
>I don't see why it was bad at all.
Yeah, that's because you are an idiot.
>It's realistic to have some locks out of your league until you study them.
Yes, there are only 4 locks with the exact same picking technique in the entire world. Very realistic.

>>3545359
I don't know why I respond to fucking idiots. The quality of reply is always that of a retarded person.

>>3545347
The problem is the IQ of the workforce is so low and they are all fucking animals. If someone made an RPG with the game play of Helldivers it would be fucking fun. But everyone is a lazy pile of shit. Like for real, all these companies are led by hacks, HR hires low IQ retards, there's no vision, nobody likes the games they make. The whole industry is in fucking free fall.

>>3545361
You didn't even say anything worth responding to intelligently. "hurr durr, it reaslistical, y bad?"
Fuck off.

>>3545369
It's just comical to me. You have this incredible game loved by millions. Spawned sequels in multiple genres, a tv show. It's known for many unique characters, sprawling landscapes, unique combat. First and third person view. They added RPG elements to lock picking and made it have multiple steps. But that's all fucking bullshit to you, the game MUST have been made by retards, because they didn't make it a fucking lock picking sim. You're just dumb. There's nothing more to really say.

>>3545378
Ah, now you try to appeal to consensus and sales figures because you don't have any actual thoughts of your own to bring. Every lock in the game being the same is "realistic", doing a repetitive minigame over and over is "fun", threshold checks which don't allow granularity in skill point assignation are "???". Do go on.

FO3: You drink water from toilet bowls and gain HP. Truly a game made by geniuses.

>>3545384
Are you one of these "Muh fallacy, muh fallacy!" types? You can appeal to consensus at times. This isn't a game with a built in fanbase like a FIFA game does. I mean people liked the originals but those were super old by then. And Oblivion was a very different setting. If the game was bullshit it wouldn't have made the waves it did.

Saying it's repetitive is really just not accurate. For one, you're not doing it all the time. Second, the difficulty of opening changes based on the lock level, so while the game stays the same in the main features, it is unique and stays fresh. And what is this obsession with multiple types of locks. Sounds like you just want to play a puzzle game, not an rpg. Go play Braid or something faggot.

>>3545399
I'm illuminating your lack of personal thought, anon, and inability to engage with objective thought about RPG design. I imagine you are very young, since you have such simplistic thoughts, so yeah, it isn't really fair to insult you.

Personally, I don't think lockpicking should ever be a minigame in any RPG, braindead or not, and it certainly shouldn't be reused for multiple games. But, putting a threshold check on it is insult to injury, because it's trying to give that minigame a veneer of RPGness.

>>3545407
>I imagine you are very young, since you have such simplistic thoughts, so yeah, it isn't really fair to insult you.

thanks for letting me know you have shit intuition on top of being retarded. Rendering you autistic but with none of the benefits. Sad.

And oh, so it's made by retards because the mini game was not in depth enough with enough locks and variations. But also it shouldn't exist. And there shouldn't be any threshold. What the fuck are you even talking about then.

>>3545419
>thanks for letting me know you have shit intuition on top of being retarded.
That was the "benefit of the doubt", my condolences on being a 30+ year old mouthbreather.
>And oh, so it's made by retards because the mini game was not in depth enough with enough locks and variations.
No, I was mocking you for calling it realistic. I don't care about realism. You didn't pick up on that?
>But also it shouldn't exist. And there shouldn't be any threshold. What the fuck are you even talking about then.
It's hard to converse with someone as dumb as you, brah. If you are confused, just let it go, other people will know what I'm talking about.

>>3545426
>That was the "benefit of the doubt", my condolences on being a 30+ year old mouthbreather.

Regardless if am 80. You're still the retard who thought someone who says retard and faggot came across as very young. On top of having played fallout 3. You ignore obvious clues because you're a retard.

>No, I was mocking you for calling it realistic. I don't care about realism. You didn't pick up on that?

I didn't say it was realistic. I said they gave multiple levels to it. A relatively small aspect of the game is multi-leveled and somewhat dynamic. Showing the devs were actually intelligent and cared.

>No, I was mocking you for calling it realistic. I don't care about realism. You didn't pick up on that?

It probably is hard. I'm clearly at least a stand deviation above you in terms of IQ, and low IQ people do literally have issues conversing with higher level IQ people.

>>3541804
>DT and DR changes
Since we go there, how about you make DT apply before any damage multiplier and not be affected by critical effects to at least somewhat mitigate the rocket tag?
>Combine big guns and small guns
Let's instead use the Sonora approach, except we don't single out energy weapons. That way we have different handling for two-handed and one-handed guns only.
>No more SPECIAL
Then you have to consider melee damage sources, how exactly HP should progress and how much personal traits will affect starting HP. Especially since some creatures are inherently tougher and stronger, like supermutants.

>>3545448
Self-own, to be honest.

>>3545455
Because of copying and pasting wrong, or what? Is that an impressive win for someone like you? "haha he didn't proof read and made an arbitrary mistake!" Fuck off

>>3545384
>doing a repetitive minigame over and over is "fun", threshold checks which don't allow granularity in skill point assignation are
Lockpicking and hacking are a good way to add some breaks/variety into gameplay. Of course, since people play these games for hundreds of hours, it's no wonder they can get old.

Also you can reach those skill thresholds with consumables and equipment. Being chance-based would instead invite savescumming.

>>3542043
He wrote the war never changes speech and designed Arcanum's character system. He's done it all except art.

>>3541335
Aiming and hitting in an action-RPG should not be determined by character stats. On the other hand, things like the impact of recoil can be affected by stats, as well as the aforementioned critical hit damage.
disagree. If I'm playing an RPG and actually roleplaying as a character that has no reason to know how to use a gun then it's silly for him to be able to click heads just because I can IRL. you either lean almost totally out of this a la action rpgs or fully in, no fucking inbetween.

>>3545364
Truth is the "gameplay" part was never really the focus of RPGs.

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>>3542346
>action rpgs and jrpgs never went that route
Anon...

>>3541335
Tim Cain is the very definition of a has-been, one-hit wonder. He hasn't made anything notable since Fallout.

>b...but Arcanum

Written in 95% by Chad Moore, and the game is completely carried by the writing, the setting, and the music.

>>3548116
Did Tim ever address the anti semitic questline in Arcanum? What was he trying to say with that one I wonder?

>>3548119
I think it was Boyarski made it, and he talk about it with Cain on a video

>>3541336
>>Mistake #7 - Telling Horrible Stories: Tim uses this to emphasize again that games are not movies. Not every character in a game has to be important or advance the plot. Tropes likes the Chosen One protagonist and amnesiac protagonist are tiresome and should be discarded.
Seems weird coming from the person who has worked on games with pretty terrible and shallow stories.

>>3541455
pretty much this, even a normalfag can generally understand those stats and what they do. the "problem" is that most times several stats are underused while others are essential.
in fallout 1 charisma is downright useless because there's like 2 charisma checks in the whole game and they're both largely inconsequential. dialogue is based more around intelligence and speech, the latter of which only gets a few extra point from charisma that are irrelevant because the game showers you with skill points.
meanwhile low agility makes the game functionally unplayable and low intelligence bans you from half the game's quests.

i feel like he's looking at the problem from the wrong point of view. it's not simplifying the systems, is to make sure the systems do what they are advertised to do. charisma needs to make a big, tangible impact on speech checks and companion's strenght/number

>>3545343
outer worlds feels like someone trying to make new vegas but missing everything that makes it good. you have stats, traits, perks every two levels, factions... but the problem is that none of it is fun or interesting, the stats are all lame in what they do, most skill checks are absurdly low and the perks are all boring "+5% damage" bullshit that adds nothing.
never in an rpg had i such a hard time choosing a perk, they all felt useless.

>>3548119
It wasn’t anti semitic. Jews are the most anti semitic people on earth and routinely genocide and ethnically cleanse the native Semitic people. This game had nothing to do with the Palestinian people.

>>3541335
tim cain is the ridley scott of gaming. only young men can create kino, old farts are not cool anymore. This is true for all art.

>>3549263
Maybe that's why he's giving out free advice for young bucks

>>3549263
I kinda like the 10 year rule. Basically it doesn’t matter when you start. But when you start your first real passion project you have ten years to create art. So fallout and arcanum fit in that timeline. Limited help on that vampire game.

>>3549263
games aren't art

>>3549285
Oh wow, that’s wild.

>>3541437
I am sure it had absolutely nothing with jewish producers abd media congloms pressuring all involved to put out slop instead of a gem of white man creativity and hard-work ethic. baka.

>>3549288
not really. it's basic, games predate art because play is a deeper instinct for mammals.

>>3549301
Oh haha, that's cool.

>>3549308
yep, very.

>>3541335
what a faggot
i bet he loves dragon age (but not origins)

Maybe RPG games should just have an optional intro screen describing simply what the game is about. "In this game we strived to give players the choice to role play various classes. Stats are not just there for power, they are there to role play. Would you like to be a thief, a mechanical wizard, a warrior, a fool, we encourage you to pick stats not for power, but to role play a specific type of character you yourself enjoy.

Give people a little background on what the fuck is going on. What even is an rpg. It absolutely can be overwhelming for a new player to just land in Arcanum and build a character with 80 different abilities to pick from and a bunch of stats. Also, notice I said optional, could just be a start menu selection.

>>3549331
>RPG games
you do this to guarantee a reply, don't you?

>>3549337
Honestly I get a reply nearly every time I post. Because I put forth real ideas. I can be a first mover, whereas most people can only respond once an idea has been put forward. They can form a positive or negative opinion on something as a reaction, but never before the idea is put forward. If anything I have too many retards replying to me.

>>3541335
Suck his dick and bite it off so he dies of bleeding then kys, faggot

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>>3542092
I came to this thread to look for this.

Why does anyone listen to this fat faggot? Who hasn't released a good game in 25 years?

>>3549597
Careful, you’ll summon the “Tim is my friend on a first name basis after watching hundreds of hours of his videos” anon

>>3549630
I was gonna say Arcanum was the last good game he did, so technically 23 years, but I do like Bloodlines... not that he really had anything to do with that, or Arcanum for thar matter, but whatever; fatfuck has been useless for 20-23 years and the only game he's actually remembered for was Fallout, so 26-27 years for normies.

>>3549638
Also VTM2 is going to crash and burn so fucking hard, no one will want to hear about Bloodlines either. Only reason anyone pays attention to him now is because Bethesda made Fallout famous, so he's famous by proxy.

>>3549630
Wow you really didn’t accept that everyone thinks you’re a faggot and totally wrong about that. Weird.

>>3541336
>Uh... bros how we are going to recover?
By living in current year BG3 is more complex than Arcanum and classic fallouts only real hurdle is its age not it's "difficulty". If you want games like he's describing it's the outer worlds.

bad bait thread

>>3545474
The more cRPGs I play the more i'm convinced the ideal RPG experience shouldn't let you quicksave at all

>>3549698
Agreed. Limited saving needs to make a comeback and with todays technology you no longer need to fear losing progress if the game crashes when even games like Dungeon crawl manage to do it.

>>3548113
name an action rpg that has the character attributes based on 3d6? none, because diablo didn't do that and everyone else copied diablo. plus diablo had a max level of 100 not the max level of 20 or so that dnd copied games had. jrpgs are the same. their stats never were based around fake dice number distributions.

>>3549702
no, fuck that limited saving is some console bullshit. oh no i really want to go eat my ubereats but i have to let it get cold on the porch because i can't get to a save point! no fuck you.

>>3549708
But you could press the pause button or escape to menu though....

>>3549710
i guess i just remember playing ff7 on a work night and being tired as shit cuz i had to get to a save point to go to bed. great game, but i had to play it on weekends cuz of the consolitis.

>>3549698
Definitely. Saving and loading at will potentially nullifies any tension and consequences, which is especially bad for RPGs. It can affect the experience in many ways.

>>3549968
Nope.

>>3549968
I agree. Even playing stardew valley, it just makes things nicer imo to limit saving. It's really just one less thing to worry about too. You don't ever save. Every night you just sleep and it's taken care of. It's a very nice system.

>>3550082
Nope.

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>>3550084
Yes

>>3541336
>the sorts of people who can't believe they could miss a 95% chance-to-hit attack three times in a row
idiot nerd, don't try to gaslight me. yes it's -theoretically- possible, but what are the odds? the odds are bullshit that's what they are
you can't expect me to be happy at having bullshit shoved in my face

>>3550089
Gross picture, you lose.
>>3550090
>what are the odds
5% each time.

>>3550092
Shut up faggot. I'm so sick of you autistic fucking pussies. The only downside to anon forms is I can't block you fucking retards.
hurrr durrr I'm just reply nope again and again. FUCKING DIE

>>3550094
You are not a real poster.

>>3550095
Oh that's nice. Kill yourself.

>>3550097
Nope.

>>3550095
What annoys me about you faggots isn't that you're brain dead pieces of shit. It's that you go out of your way to respond to me. "Oh I better quote this guy who is actually talking, and fucking roll around shit in front of him so that he knows I'm retard." Bro I don't need you to respond to me with retarded shit like "No". Fucking laconic retards. The Spartans would butt fuck you with a spear so stop acting like you're one of them.

>>3550099
Shouldn't you be working on your "game"?

>>3550114
Wow I’m becoming a known entity around here. Nice

>>3550118
Your posting style is very obvious. Lots of filler. Try to avoid that in your "game".

>>3550119
Oh right. Anything more than “no” is filler. Also stop putting quotes everywhere nerd. You don’t sound cool quoting the word game. I’d fucking smack you if I saw you using air quotes.

>>3550121
No, I enjoy insults and banter, but you repeat ideas too much so it becomes boring to read so people just start skimming. Little tip to improve your writing, "less is more".

>>3550121
>”quoting”
>”smack”
>”game”

>>3550122
You aren’t a position to offer help to anyone though.

>>3550125
I can imagine you walking around outside. Your inner monologue consists of “Tree. Bird.” What a dumb mother fucker LMFAO

>>3550128
I am.

>>3550133
No you aren’t. You don’t know how to write. You’re just repeating what you’ve heard others say and you clumsily try to repeat it. But this is a fucking message board faggot. I’m not writing dialogue right now. You’re lost. Also what about idk the entire film collection of Quinton Tarentino. “Quinton, Quinton, it’s good but it’s, it’s too much. Nobody is going to listen to a whole Bible quote, less is more.”
Fucking moron.

>>3550134
Wrong.

>>3550135
You want to know why you use laconic speech, because it is a shield that protects your ideas from actually being judged. By not saying anything, the world doesn’t get to see what a retard you are. Like let’s look back at your previous post where you compared a post online to dialogue for a game. That’s something a complete retard would say. You slipped up once and tried contributing an original thought and it failed horribly. So you’ve regressed once again to single word responses. Clearly you were made fun of and socially shunned for speaking, so you built a defense mechanism you can hide behind. Further one word posts only prove this to be true.

>>3550138
You aren't good at this.

>>3550134
>Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold

>>3550150
It’s funny you say you like banter. But you sure run like a bitch when it’s time to have some. Also I’ve roasted you in every single fucking post and you haven’t even come CLOSE to refuting anything I said. No comedic responses. No intellectual response. Nothing. Fucking Embaressing. I think I’m done here unless you learn to use your words and stop replying like a scared little CUNT. It’s starting to make me feel like a bully. This is too lopsided of a verbal engagement.

>are you sure this will help us talk about RPGs?
>RPGs?

>>3550160
One thing I like about Tim is that he was high level in various companies. The way he thinks is very logical. He breaks down games into pieces. I think it’s been somewhat beneficial to listen to him. I gotta check out Sakurai videos though. See what that dude has to say.

>>3550163
I call Robert DeNiro “Bobby DeNiro” and my wife always gives me shit about how I can’t do that, but I’d never dream of just calling him “Bobby”

>>3550165
Good. I’ve reached heights you can’t even dream of.

>>3550090
>idiot nerd, don't try to gaslight me. yes it's -theoretically- possible, but what are the odds?
Three times in a row? 1/8000.

>>3550202
Tim broke down the math that a QA tester will probably run into it once a week. And this was causing chaos.

>>3550089
lool

>>3550157
This is what I mean. Completely boring style.

>>3550203
that's mr. cain to you, schlub

>>3550208
Oh wow, but here's the thing. I'm not your mommy. So your gay subjective opinion means nothing faggot.

Also the post above you is someone joining in laughing at my post. The post where I made fun of you. So you no longer get to say "No NO NO THAT'S NOT COOL, I SAID SO!" Public opinion disagrees with you.

>>3550215
It seems to matter to you a lot.

>>3550217
No

>>3550218
But you keep crying about it. I think you don't respond well to criticism and just look for excuses to go on repetitive diatribes about the imagined qualities of the poster you engage with. You seem to lack wit and humour as a poster and end up getting stuck in phrasal loops. Loquaciousness is fine, but try to make the content not so dull by belabouring your point.

>>3550223
You talk like such a fucking faggot and never make a point that can be argued because you're a fucking PUSSY. All you can say is something subjective like "you lack wit". Because you know no matter what I say you'll just say "No Wit." It's a cowards way of speaking. You're a pussy. Oh but you evolved to a new form here. You now throw out a couple hack faggot words and act like you're smart. I've never seen such levels of fucking cope. You hid behind laconic speech. That wasn't working out for you so well, so now you hide behind a retards version of advanced speech. Like oh now you're using big kid words like phrasal and Loquaciousness LMFAO. Fucking dork. Stop hiding pussy. Say something that can be argued and that isn't subjective. Don't try to appear smart to others, SAY SOMETHING.

Btw, you try coming up with reasons I'm mad, but I tried forcing it back onto Tim Cain. I tried getting it back on topic. But you're so fucking butt hurt you keep dragging it back to this. Once again, I apply logic. I apply reason. You hide behind "Nope. I said no, haha, that means I win. Better luck next time kid." Faggot.

>>3550227
Calm down.

>>3550243
he's right about what you are, but he's wrong to be even talking to you

>>3550227
>You hid behind laconic speech. That wasn't working out for you so well, so now you hide behind a retards version of advanced speech
Kek spot on

>>3550327
What am I?

>>3550327
>>3550345

Thank you. I tend to argue people I shouldn't when I'm avoiding something. Not avoiding my game in this case, but other areas. But you're right, I should cut back a bit. Just say my peace and move on.

>>3550361
A pussy.

>>3550377
>my "game"
FTFY

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>>3541571
>He's experimenting with creating a completely numberless character system that uses geometric shapes to visualize attributes
is this what you are looking for?

>>3541335
>He's experimenting with creating a completely numberless character system
I would just replace numbers with perks/abilities.

>>3541478
If games held fast to the way stats and abilities worked or had an accurate & detailed description of how they work in character creation, then there would be no issue. The only issue is that most games skimp on some skill or attribute, and it becomes either useless or irrelevant or you are simply not told how certain mechanics play out. This is where I give that guy Ken from Spiderweb Software some real props. All of the skills and abilities work the way they say they do in at least the Avernum games.

>>3552148
>Ken from Spiderweb Software
Jeff Vogel

>>3552148
>This is where I give that guy Ken from Spiderweb Software some real props. All of the skills and abilities work the way they say they do in at least the Avernum games.
I don’t care for his games, but bless him for being consistent.

>>3548160
Undoubtedly. I agree 100%. If I could trust the character generator to feed me plenty of accurate data on what I am looking forward to, then whatever issues I have are quite literally on me. Not only that, but the whole "plenty of accurate data on the experience I am looking forward to" is essential to me being able to actually succeed in starting up the game with zero outside information. Based on that green text, this guy is inevitably going to either create another "complex game" or it's going to be super dumbed down and boring.

>>3552167
Bring back games with 300 page manuals.

>>3549331
You are correct. It is important that these games are accurately depicting the experience they are going to provide. Darkest Dungeon actually does this. They drop a two paragraph info dump on you every time you load the game. It is a fantastic reminder that the game is hard and full of difficult decisions. The problem is that retards in the company are going to use that as a marketing opportunity rather than a learning experience and this is the beginning of the break down.

>>3552149
Rofl. Yeah, Jeff. Thanks anon.

>>3552168
I yearn for the day.

>>3552181
Cheap bastards don’t even have the excuse of the printing cost now because it would just be a PDF anyway (which is nice because it’s searchable, but a downside because you can’t read it on the toilet). They’d rather outsource it to some shitty and inaccurate fan wiki now. Or fucking YouTube videos.

tim cain is a has-been

>>3556157
>tim cain is a has-been
Yeah, has-been in your dad's asshole

>>3541335
>this old shitpost thread again that has been refuted a million times
Great job shitting up the board again OP, break more global rules why don't you

>>3557140
Nah he's a literal faggot so Tim Cain was taking in the ass
>>3549290
Tim Cain is Jewish lol

i lost all respect for tim
he let Bethesda to rape fallout left and right and he just sits there and says its okay because he is afraid that he will end up like chris avellone and will never get a chance to work in the industry ever again
so he is just a whore now
he fucking greenlit fallout show

>>3557798
I completely agree.

>>3541335
Hes right though?
Numbers retardation ruined rpgs.
Making the numbers invisible and represent your characters stats by a triangle seems like a good idea.

>>3560544
New ideas always get opposition, even when they end up being good.

>>3541335
>hello I'm a unix administrator
>the problem is always the users innit fellas
>not my obscure nonsensical fucking shit that i can't bother to document for anyone because that would cut into my time jerking off and imagining how superior I am to le commoners

I don't feel inclined to listen to this fatass that stands like a woman nor josh sawyer talk about tropes nor "the little people can't appreciate my le genius" while they spin their unfun casual cartoon and cynical nihilist ESG/DEI bullshit. Imagine that.

>>3561972
Kek

>>3561972
I'm kinda mixed on Tim Cain. On the one hand, I like how much he has thought about RPG's. On the other hand it's like, ok so where are the fun games to play from him? I tried Arcanum and had to turn it off. From what I read Fallout 1 is super dated. Every modern game he's touched, either taking more of a lead, or simply a programmer, they are boring ass games. And not just turn based stuff, Outer Worlds is another game I bought that I had to turn off in under an hour. It just wasn't good. So it's kinda like, where does his confidence come from. Fallout 1? Much of what is loved about that game came from other people. Much of what is not liked was Tims. I have no reason to be a hater. But on the other hand I gave 2 separate games a chance based on his passion for rpgs, and both sucked ass.

>>3562039
>So it's kinda like, where does his confidence come from
Confidence? Well he has decades of experience working in the industry and on the genre. Shame that most of his game had to be rushed out, but I think we can all see them as flawed diamonds.

He has seen first-hand all sorts of things that can go wrong while developing a game, and I guess you learn to not let it crush you. Like shitty teams, management, publishers. I feel like I've learned a lot from his stories, not just on game design.

>>3541335
number and build autism is half of the reason i play CRPGs, not saying it should be bloated garbage like WOTR but i liked arcanum or even Underrail design, so fuck off with you midwit takes you faggot.

>>3541335
Anyone that uses the word "tropes" is drinking leftist koolaid to some degree.
We had the perfectly serviceable word "cliche" before and didn't need another term for that.
Cliche means the overuse of a literary device until it has lost all impact.
Tropes on the other hand was another postmodern doubleplusbad invention to steer culture away from things leftists don't like.
>man saves the woman? Oh what a trope, how gauche
You will notice that mary sues, interracial forced pairings, narratives about white privilege, colonialism, anti-capitalism, heroic immigrants wrongly persecuted by an unjust system, and every other tiresome leftist saw that has a forced narrative in games from around 2005 to today never makes the trope headlines whereas evergreen narratives that resonated with actual human beings since the dawn of history frequently do.

>Fuck Shakespeare, LOTR, Odysseus, Asimov, haha le tropes
>It's time for another round of being lectured on how whites invented slavery instead!

Their very existence is a cliche at this point.

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>>3541804
Odd choices in the name of simplification and less roleplaying and identity for your own character.
I'd argue that things can still be interesting and simplified by just keeping what works and reworking on what doesnt.
In the case of Fallout 1/2 here is what I would have done :

>AP is good the way it is, however armor applies the max AP available.
For exemple, Leather Armor gives a max of 10 AP while leather jackets and robes gives a max of 12 AP. These arbitrary AP can be bypass through consumables and certain perks (like a reworked adrelaline rush perk who boost AP and damage under 25% HP). Heavier armor decrease the max AP but Power Armor is in tricky position so I say that you can find one but to be truly OP with it you need special training which can be only gotten through a quest or with tinkering and science checks on a workbench to uncover and use the full ability of the Power Armor. The Tinker stat can also craft better armor that can make use for a better max AP.
>Sequence shouldnt be scrapped
Reaction modifiers can and change battles based on your character reaction.
>Armor Class shouldnt be scrapped
But actually should work as intended and be buffed to allow dodging mechanics for light armor.
>DT should be applied first, and lose 3 DT on crits. DR should be applied next to see how much damage truly is being dealt
This way you buff it and put importance on heavy armor role to stop damage even on crits.
>Combine redundant skills
Completely agree on that however you dont have to combine a lot skills, you still need them to make it make sense.
>Keep SPECIAL
Not only it adds character to your avatar in game but you also need it for perk requierements
>All perks should be available no need for a certain level to get it
A level cap is still necessary to keep things balanced and varied in terms of builds, I seriously think that it would not only make some builds less of hassle to make and allow for the player to truly experiment to his pleasure.

>>3564262
level caps that are actually reachable through typical gameplay are retarded, jrpgs get that right. caps feel awful because they make late game content pointless and unrewarding

>>3564290
You just have to make it interesting.
Great RPGs like Fallout 1 and VTMB are short and heavily replayable, Age of Decadence got it best imo, and allow replayability and building your character in the way you want and making it fresh in all playthroughs, no level caps means that all characters and builds ends up being the same and that the only thing that varies playthroughs to playthroughs is the early game.
I just would prefer if games with level cap can be reached mid game so you can truly use your character in the hardest/well designed dungeons and quest to the mid to late game where peak gameplay usually is.

>>3564170
Based take, I agree.

>>3564298
I think I like this idea. Let people enjoy their build. Especially in an rpg with major class differentiation. Actually be able to use all your powers in the end game. Rather then get access to your coolest stuff when the game is over.dd2dw

the only thing I remember from Wildstar is that it had small veggie creatures in it

>>3550138
>Further one word posts only prove this to be true
You're an absolute dullard if you think that you can just set parameters for what constitutes truth in such a convenient manner. You've nothing of value to say and so you're just filling your posts with hot air and overlong insults. How nice for you that whatever happens to oppose your preferred reality is proof of others' ignorance!
Spouting a lengthy diatribe doesn't make you anymore correct than the "laconic" posts you've been replying to. It's plain trite and you're an arrogant windbag and a presumptuous ass. No one has any obligation to refute you because your idiocy is self-evident. It's not worth the time to engage with you in earnest, and so you won't get anything of substance in return.
You lack the basic awareness to realize how much of a pansy you read as. You've got no point to make and yet you smugly think you've gained some kind of upper hand in a pointless argument on an anonymous image board. You've wasted your time, and far more of it than I wasted typing this up. Your behavior won't change as a result of this because you're so far up your own ass that you could never possibly reevaluate your stance on anything, but take a second to step back and think on this if you have even a moment of clarity after reading this. You will not receive any further replies from me, so feel free to have the last word if you'd like. You seem to value it immensely and it does me no harm to allow it to you.

>>3541335
>>3541336
This is an old video and I think Tim has walked back some of these. I've been watching his new channel and he hasn't said anything about getting rid of numbers.

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tim a narcissist like all the others

>>3564623
Considering how most of the projects where Tim Cain was lead, things went horribly.
Lack of leadership was my suspicion.
He is a has-been and tries to cling on the few things that made him who is as his whole indentity. Even if it means that he has to shill hard for the Fallout TV Show.

>>3564623
This post is stupid if you listen to Tim. Just the factual order of events don't make a coherent argument against Tim. Tim wasn't in charge until the upper level management came in and fired everyone. They then put Tim in charge. Tim's biggest complaint was the art director being insane, which this post supports. BUT it said the combat got good at around 7 years. So you mean, it was trash before Tim was in charge, Tim gets put in charge and is directly responsible for combat mechanics, combat then gets good, and yet it's Tim's fault the game was bad? Tim saw that the art director had too much power and was making shit decisions and lying, so he saw the writing on the wall and LEFT. Then, after leaving, he turned down powerful positions. So if Tim has such a big ego, why did he routinely turn down power?

Just because someone works somewhere it doesn't mean they have a fucking clue what they are talking about. And you can tell he's a retard by how he talks. "Tim was a dick, I won't post any examples just heckin trust. And oh ya his stuff was thrown out but actually this is just factually incorrect and a ton of his work was left in." Fucking stupid.

And I say this as someone who really doesn't agree with Tim Cain on what's fun. I don't particularly respect him as a game designer. But let's be honest at least.

>>3564678
The Fallout show was pretty good.

But Tim admits he's a bad businessman. Idk why people don't listen to that. It's like when a woman tell you she's crazy. Fucking LISTEN. So ya most projects ran out of time and money because he can't make a contract with publishers that isn't trash. But that doesn't mean he doesn't understand rpg battle mechanics. Which is apparently what this board is in love with. I personally never played a good game based on western rpg battle mechanics.

Tim is an extreme far left gay dude and he partnered with a Jew communist (this is just what I observe, I'm not sure exactly what the artist side kick truly identifies as). It's just not a surprise the business ran like shit and it inevitably showed in the games as a result.

>>3564623
>crab in a bucket claims someone is a narcissist
If I had a nickel for every time I've seen this

>>3564678
>Considering how most of the projects where Tim Cain was lead, things went horribly.
>Lack of leadership was my suspicion.
You notice how all these big names never have any accountability when shit goes wrong? It’s always someone else’s fault, always. I’ve never once heard “yeah that was all my fault I fucked up sorry”

>>3564712
>It's just not a surprise the business ran like shit and it inevitably showed in the games as a result.
Recently watched the arcanum timeline vid, and was surprised how much bullshit they had to deal with. They had to change office, interplay harrassed them with petty legal shit.. seems like it's better to avoid companies at any capacity.

>>3564724
Right. It seems like every indie desperately wants a publisher. Then every story with a publisher is a fucking nightmare. "They stole our profits and basically just said sue us. You might win but you'll never work in this industry again." Well gee, that's nice.

>>3564730
>oy vey you got paid in exposure

>>3564712
>The Fallout show was pretty good.
no it was usual netflix garbage which shat on source

>>3564733
That’s a feature not a bug

>>3564730
>Then every story with a publisher is a fucking nightmare
Yeah they always come meddling in and fucking over the development for no good reason besides "we own and rule over you" so now you gotta deal with their retarded bullshit.
Apparently Troika wasn't paid on time for Arcanum, then received a list of demands that led to hours of content being cut. And an external QA team wasn't doing their job properly..

Sounds like a nightmare to me, I hate when outsiders fuck things over.

>>3564738
you say that but then you get projects like Stormgate with self employed starcraft has-beens and their nepo friends who spent years making what basically is blueprint of a RTS still missing basic stuff like campaign, unit voices etc and already spent 40millions of kickstarter and investor money for something 5 devs from eastern Europe could do in a year for less than 1 million.

>>3564748
It is very interesting how often this is the case. I think it's because most success comes from 1 person with a soul, supported by an army of npc's. The npc's start thinking they have souls because they did "all the work." And then they try reproducing what their leader did with them, on their own, and it's a soulless piece of shit.

>>3564718
>newfag correlates two unrelated concepts
If I had a nickel for every time I've read this

>>3541335
This man is the very definition, and purest essence, of a has-been. He made ONE good game, one which was extremely short, and more of a tech demo. And nothing else of note. Arcanum was completely carried by the writing (Chad Moore), music, setting (Chad Moore) and atmosphere. He never did anything of note, outside of Fallout 1.

>>3564811
>Arcanum was completely carried by the writing (Chad Moore), music, setting (Chad Moore) and atmosphere
Curiously none of that would have been possible without Tim Cain.

>>3564748
Yeah..

Somehow you would need to build a dev team of conscientious, talented, experienced, organized and creative people who get along well, and get them financed withput outside interference.

Kinda explains how perfect games are as rare as perfect people.

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>>3564712
>The Fallout show was pretty good
It was a show about Fallout reference and weird retcons. Pretty much in line with nuFallout.
>But Tim admits he's a bad businessman. Idk why people don't listen to that.
Nothing to do with leading projects, he is a great level designer and programmer but he is easily carried away when he comit to work and if you see how he managed Troika Games, the company was described as being like "Communists". Their words, not to say that couldnt work but he just isnt is the man built to lead project or companies where money, jobs and art vision are in the line. You need to balance all of these things and he failed horribly.
>that doesn't mean he doesn't understand rpg battle mechanics.
The thread's subject and vid + his latests projects arent playing in his favour lmao.
>>3564723
Sometimes its just lightning in a bottle for these big names, Tim Cain only really succeded when he had truly talented people around him, when he is alone with new faces he only produce mediocre stuff.

>>3564833
NuFallout is better than old fallout.

>Nothing to do with leading projects
I mean it does though. Directly. For reasons you mentioned.

>The thread's subject and vid + his latests projects arent playing in his favour lmao.

I actually personally agree that his view on fun, is in fact, not fun. I'm mostly taking the fact that people on this board seem obsessed with fallout and Arcanum. But ya, I'm open to someone presenting hard evidence his mechanics suck.

>>3564723
Tim Cain is very open about the fact that he ran Troika poorly. You don't know what you're talking about buddy.

>>3564890
>NuFallout is better than old fallout
No. Gameplay wise, story wise, atmosphere and graphics and even in modding. Classics remains on top.
nuFallout is self referential, retcons some stories to make shittier one more plausible and sacrifice roleplay for more FPS elements that are below average at best. The only good piece of nuFallout lore is Nate being a psycho and that was retconned by Emil "Hack" Pargliarulo 10 mins after he proclaimed it.
>I mean it does though. Directly
Its only one part, its not the whole thing. His issue isnt that he isnt a good buinsess. He is a poor leader easily distracted on some design aspects, cant make decision and always support new ideas instead of sticking to the objectives set in the first place.
>I'm open to someone presenting hard evidence his mechanics suck.
His Geometry RPG mechanics and over simplification still relies on numbers and makes the genre less about roleplaying and more about implementing experimental mechanics. Im waiting to see that kind of stuff into action but trying to pander to the larger audience simply doesnt work. If the companies crashed back in the days, it was because of poor leadership decision and compromises. Games like Arcanum, Fallout 1 and 2 did well for their audience. Trying to reach the bigger audience with these kind of games is naive. Baldur's Gate 3 prooved that you can build a fanbase and still being somewhat loyal to the players who fell in love with the original mechanics of turn based cRPGs by not making the player feel dumb and focusing on story and dialogues.