People are gonna ride my ass because it isn't a strict JRPG, but Vagrant Story. A damn masterpiece that I wish someone would try again. Modern gaming is leaning into the yapfest movie game territory and progression is often boring, asinine "horizontal progression" shit like "deal +5% damage against yellow enemies during a full moon but take 10% more damage from fire-based magic". I miss old games that let you break them.

>>3555871
No one should ride your ass for this, you're right
>>3555853
FF9 actually has a bad progression system, otherwise normally basic it adds tedium on top of it

>>3555853
Wizardry

>>3555871
>Modern gaming is leaning into the yapfest movie game territory and progression is often boring, asinine "horizontal progression" shit like "deal +5% damage against yellow enemies during a full moon but take 10% more damage from fire-based magic
That's exactly what VS progression is like though

>>3555853
Not old enough to be a classic, but Trails of Cold Steel's character building (which iterates upon FF7's materia system) where you can socket up to 7 orbs on a character that comes with additional effects such as doubling the potency of their crits, or allowing every counterattack after a succession parry be a crit, and so on. Sadly the character building in the other Trails games including Kuro isn't as indepth or as fun.

>>3555983
Unfortunately you failed at Vagrant Story

>>3555853
Final Fantasy Tactics, Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together is a close second.
Nothing else is remotely close.

I like Final Fantasy V's job system.

>>3555991
My man, I know you're terminally retarded (you wouldn't praise dogshit like VS otherwise), but that's exactly VS's entire progression system.
Your worthless main stats are increased through a literal slot machine and never come into play until NG+, the entire progression system of VS is comprised of three things:
>Weapon stats
These are literal +1% damage with Element X/To enemy type X every 1 affinity points.
And while you can, slowly grind them manually by using said weapons there's no sense in doing so when simply slotting in gems can give you up to 30 points into whatever affinity you want.
Speaking of which, the only affinity that is actually worth shit is Physical, everything else is a waste of time, also since VS damage calculations work on a flat threshold, it means that ANY affinity past 90 is already doing true damage, this means even fighting an Ifrit with a weapon with 90 Fire affinity will technically do true damage since you're already breaking past the flat fire elemental defense value.
On top of this you can also simply use something like Raging Ache to completely ignore this mess of a system since that's also a source of flat damage that ignores all defense calculations and you can get it in the first 20 minutes of the game.
>Chain abilities
Which are again, more damage (some of which like Raging Ache which ignores game mechanics, making 90% of your chain abilities completely fucking worthless) and a bunch of useless statuses, some of which straight up do not work at a basic design level, like Numbness.
>Spells
Offensive spells are garbage because they work almost entirely off your INT, which is tied to a literal slot machine, meaning it's impossible to actually build around them.
Most buffs/debuffs in the games are completely worthless since again, Raging Ache breaks the game and the gains are so minuscule for anything but maybe Shaman buffs it's a waste of time, only spell actually worth using in the whole game is Magic Ward.

>>3555853
Trails

>>3556031
Trails is not a classic RPG and it doesn't have a progression system beyond leveling up to learn crafts.

Wild ARMS XF. It is FFT except instead of having your slots be
[class active skill set]
[selectable active skill set]
[passive skill]
[reaction skill]
[movement skill]
it is
>[class active skill]
>[whatever the fuck you want, another class active skill set, a passive, reaction skill, movement skill]
>same as above
>ditto
>again
>yep
>seven slots
Sadly the game never justifies that level of customization and has many maps that are "puzzle maps" and require you use a specific class/combo of classes to win (like requiring you have the hookshot class on at least one person)
However, conceptually, it is fucking awesome.

>>3555853
Final Fantasy V.

>>3555853
Final Fantasy 10

>>3555853

Yes.

progression system?
dont you have guys just have:
>level up!
>+10 str
>+4 def
>+1 balls
>cockslap learned
or something like that?

FF5 was fun
FF7
FFT
FFX was an okay idea in theory

>>3555871
VS is soo clunky to play nowadays, but if you ignore this, it's easily among the very best games ever created, in all aspects, that is.

>>3555853
FFXI

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>>3555853
a bit shy of 20 years so it prolly doesnt count as a classic, but mana khemia has a really interesting progression system tied to crafting. i dont really wanna say much because its honestly more fun to fuck around with blind
>>3557808
youre telling on yourself

>>3555853
>FF9: levels are only important for HP and MP, gears do the heavy lifting for the rest.

>>3555853
For some reason I like "learn skill from a weapon" conceptually but it's rare that it works well.

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>>3556006
This. I just played it and it was perfection.

The entire first world is laid out to basically be a tutorial area to allow you to expiriment with jobs and not feel penalized for not being immediately broken. Most random encounters can be cleared efficiently with just physical attacks. Bosses can be tricky on occasion, but not impossible, and they encourage the use of different tactics; you never feel pressured to ONLY use your strongest jobs/abilities.

The second world is where it turns up the heat. Random encoutners start to throw you curveballs and expect you to be able to recover from sudden deaths or massive, party-wide damage and/or status conditions. The game starts tossing you optional, fairly difficult encounters to test your mettle, (Kuza beast, Shield Dragon, etc). The game isn't penalizing you for not figuring out strong ability combos or battle tactics, but it's certainly encouraging you to do so. The tail end of the second world has some legitimately hard fights that you'll only win by the skin of your teeth if you aren't building a solid party.

The final world is where it pulls all the stops out. By this point in the game, pieces should be falling into place in your party and it can cause false confidence, because some of the weapons and abilities you can get will truly make you feel broken, until you come across a boss that proves otherwise. They expect you to always anticipate enemy behavior; even if you're overpowered, you have to keep your guard up because random encounters can still go south, especially in some of the final areas of the game. And then, of course, if you're really full of yourself, Omega and Shinryu are there to take some wind out of your sails. Tactic-wise, they're some of my favorite FF superbosses because they aren't just million-HP slogs; they are non-stop assaults on your person that require solid expertise of the job system to overcome. Brutal puzzles in battle format.

11/10, one of my favorite RPGs of all time.

>>3557953
>it's rare that it works well.
How "well" does it have to work? It's a pretty simple concept. Could you give me an example of a game that does it well, and one that doesn't?

>>3555928
FFIX is one of the only games where equipment has a meaningful impact on progression at all. Lost Odyssey uses a different version of it.

>>3558015
It's not perfect. FFT definitely improves on it by making it clear what abilities you're going to learn before you grind to learn them, not having the Freelancer invalidate all other options upon mastery of a single job, having a more natural curve for JP gain, etc

The only problem is just that FFT is just such a fucking slow game in comparison to FFV that it's harder to appreciate those elements

>>3558047
I'm definitely looking forward to FFT. I've never been into strategy, but I'm looking to learn. I'm happy to hear it has a similar system to FFV, that'll be a huge appeal.

Although Bravely Default's job system is also like FFV's and I didn't like it nearly as much. There are way too many abilities and a lot of them feel situational, like to actually make them worthwhile I'd need at least 2 or 3 very other specific abilities to make it worthwhile. FF5's had way more synergy with far less effort required.

>>3558047
>not having the Freelancer invalidate all other options upon mastery of a single job
I wouldn't say it invalidates other options. Especially because the more you master, the better Freelancer gets. And you don't learn anything new if you use freelancer. At the end of the game, sure, it's the best option along with Mime, but that's pretty deliberate design and not really a flaw.

>not having the Freelancer invalidate all other options upon mastery of a single job
I think this problem is overstated. The amount of jobs you need to master for Freelancer to be the absolute best option is enough that it only really affects end-game or post-game unless you're really grinding away. And even when you reach that point you're still engaging with the systems by needing to choose which two abilities you want on a character and which equipment works best on them, and I bypassing the usual equipment restrictions and other bonuses is a fine reward for getting this point.

If Freelancer really needs to be nerfed, then I think simply removing the stat increases is good enough. Or remove automatically getting all passives, perhaps in conjunction with expanding on ability slots a bit. I should really get around to playing Bravely Default since I know that game tries to expand on FFV's system.

>>3558104
I don't think freelancer needs to be nerfed. Only if you're an autistic min-maxer who looks up the best stat boosts beforehand and purposefully goes into the game with the objective of building OP characters. If you just play the game normally, Freelancer functions exactly as intended; to be a jack-of-all-trades class that gets stronger the more you experiment with others classes.

On a normal, first-time playthrough, there is absolutely no reason anyone would switch back to Freelancer after mastering only one class. That's super fucking boring, lol.

>removing the stat increases is good enough. Or remove automatically getting all passives
All this would do is make Freelancer boring. The whole point of freelancer is to enjoy multiple passives and stat boosts that are class-exclusive. I loved having natural ninja dual wield as well as monk's counter on the same character. It was a glorious reward for mastering those two jobs.

I pretty much agree with all that, I'm just saying if you really did want to nerf it then I think removing the stat increases is good enough since not being the best in all stats automatically could mean some specific jobs might still have a numeric superiority that gives them some use, but Freelancer would still have the superiority in having access to all equipment and passives, and they'd still get the stat boosts that come with command abilities.

>>3558143
meant for >>3558137

>>3558023
>FFIX is one of the only games where equipment has a meaningful impact on progression at all
it's so fucking boring having to grind out a skill using a shitty weapon
ff9 is terrible

>>3558177
Or you could not grind and just deal with the consequences of your build choices. You know like a roleplaying game.

>>3558190
>FFIX
>Consequences
>Builds
Since when I could make Zidane into a summoner or turn Steiner into a monk? Since when Freya can use staves or Amarant can use swords?
What exactly are the choices in FFIX when every single playthrough is exactly the same?

>>3558194
What skills your characters have and what equipment they're using. Which matters all the more if you're not grinding to max everything and then bitching that the game lets you do that like a sped.

>>3558209
Your skills are 99% useless, fixed and you can max out every character easily anyway, not like it matters since FFIX has zero difficulty whatsoever and it doesn't give you any reason to bother with most of its tools, most of which are just about damage anyway.
Again, where's the character building? Why can't Zidane learn Doomsday? Why can't Steiner learn Jump? What's the difference between Water, Aqua Breath or Leviathan? Why is that Dagger can summon Leviathan but Eiko can't despite both having the same Summon command?

>>3558214
>I don't like the answer so I'm just going to say the game is shit and doesn't matter anyway!
Cool, cool.
>Again, where's the character building? Why can't Zidane learn Doomsday? Why can't Steiner learn Jump?
character building =/= everyone can do anything. I guess games like Baldur's Gate don't have character building either.
>What's the difference between Water, Aqua Breath or Leviathan?
Water is a basic mid-level attack primarily meant to be single-target that fluffs up Vivi's elemental options, which fits with Black Magic being mostly straightforward damage spells of various elements. Aqua Breath is an early-game spell that hits all enemies but does HP percentage-based damage despite also being water-elemental, so it's basically just an option Quina has early on to deal ok damage without being particularly powerful, which fits with Blue Magic all being strange and situational. Leviathan is a multi-target attack that has somewhat high MP cost but at base does better damage than a multi-target Water and can have its power upgraded in a couple ways, which is a general feature of all Summons as a way to make them potentially very powerful at the cost of needing a lot more investment than other character's options.
>Why is that Dagger can summon Leviathan but Eiko can't despite both having the same Summon command?
Because they wanted Dagger and Eiko to be different characters despite both being White Mage/Summoners, so Dagger leans more Summoner and has all the various elemental Summons that cover the same elements as Black Magic, while Eiko leans more White Mage learning all White Magic and getting Summons with support effects or inflict other types of elemental damage Black Damage doesn't get.

>>3558214
Just awful opinions. Pearls before swine. That game is a masterpiece.

Earn enough XP. Get a level. There was no reason we had to complicate matters. For as much as new games like to streamline a lot of other shit they sure were content to overload their "mechanics" in ways that ultimately end up in the same place with a bunch more bells and whistle.

>>3558235
Boohoo, the game isn't a masterpiece and there's absolutely zero reason to not just grind out every skill for your equipment. It's poorly thought out and way better excuted in FFTA. Get over yourself Sakaguchi drone

>>3558253
Why would there be a reason you can’t grind out every skill for your equipment. Why is it bad that they allow you mess with builds late game. During the game you balance between strength and weakness while learning skills. Choosing how to best spend money and use resources in synthesis. It’s a wonderfully balanced game. Late game you’re free to try new builds. It’s fucking perfection. “But Zidane can’t be a wizard.” Madness. Just complete madness.

>>3558259
>Builds
What on earth are you talking about? Zidane plays exactly the same way everytime. There's legitimately more variety for "builds" in FF7 with the materia system which while we're on it is actually 100x better than FF9.

>>3555853
Pokemon unironically
The mere fact that you pick 6 of them gives you a much larger space of combinations than 99% of RPGs

>>3558270
It's just SMT for babies

FF9 is boring and not very fun and the weakest and least memorable of the snes/PSX era FD games

>>3558262
You’re retarded and I’m done here. There is more to the game than Zidane you stupid mother fucker. It’s a party of 8. Your class is a thief and this adds variety to gameplay as well. On top of learning new skills with weaker items you balance stealing from bosses rather than attacking in hopes of reward. I can’t even have a decent conversation anymore. Just go play Skyrim. All your dreams will come true.

>>3558104
Well at the bare minimum it's a problem in the sense that (with the exception of Mime) once you master a job you have no reason to ever switch back to it since Freelancer can now do everything that job can and more. I would propose a more interesting solution to yours in that mastering a job should allow you to swap out the set ability and have two slots like the Freelancer. Freelancer can keep the stat inheritance but lose the passive inheritance. Being able to equip anything is already a massive advantage

>>3558273
They're not remotely similar.

>>3558224
>character building =/= everyone can do anything
Yes, actually.
Character building means you have options, in FF9 you have no options because all characters are already set in stone, unlike games like Baldur's Gate where you can build characters freely, CHARNAME especially, you saying the game has character building because you can ignore learning some prebaked skills is ridiculous.
And just like I got you to explain, the game clearly does not want you to build characters to build anything because everyone is already set into a rigid toolkit that is largely about doing the same two or three things with minor caveats and completely arbitrary pidgeonholing.
Which is why again, Eiko can't learn Dagger's summon skills despite both of them having access to the same exact Summon command, because the designers wanted them to be "different" characters you, the player, have no input over, meaning character building was never considered in the first place, all you have is grinding for generic nukes with a different element and slightly different multipliers, none of which matter since FFIX is not only mechanically shallow but incredibly easy.

>>3558288
Yes, the characters have preset skillsets. The player still has choices in what exactly the characters can do at any given time, and it's perfectly fine amount of choice for the game to be fun and have some challenge to it. Why does this piss you off so much? You've completely failed to articulate why you're so autistically assmad about this besides just going "It doesn't count! It doesn't count! And it's easy and shit anyway!" over and over again like a toddler.

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>>3558280
Absolutely none of this is evidence of "builds". All you are literally doing is just IGNORING skills they can learn, you aren't making a real choice, infact it's perfectly acceptable to just continue using gear until you learn the skill and then move on, the difference is GRINDING and respecting your time, this is why most RPGs do developing skills completely differently and why FF9 is flawed. Funny you mention Skyrim since it sorta has the same problems for character building. I have to say though, 9fags are on a whole other LEVEL of delusional.

>>3558279
Absolutely true, It's insanely overrated. Mechanically speaking it's the most inferior of its contemporaries, storywise it's squandered its potential

>>3555871
Neat game, unfortunately once you figure the games systems out it becomes very one dimensional. Fun while the illusion of depth lasts but it wasn't well balanced.

>>3557885
Never see this game mentioned but it's so fucking good

>>3558279
Cmon, it's better than FF4 at least.

SaGa Frontier.

>>3558326
>The player still has choices in what exactly the characters can do at any given time
What choices? Choices imply commitment, options, which are not a thing in FF9 because your characters are already fully prebuilt and can't actually be customized, everything they do is already set in stone and you, the player, have no word on any of it.
You can learn anything you want permanently with no drawbacks and most of the skills are completely useless even when they just become available because the game itself is beyond barren in terms of mechanics and doesn't even enforce a modicum of difficulty.
When would you even use something as pointless as Limit Glove? What the fuck is the use case for Sacrifice? Why would I ever fucking use something like Lucky Seven or Countdown?
>it's perfectly fine amount of choice for the game to be fun and have some challenge to it.
It's really not especially since FFIX has no challenge, but I'm tired of arguing with somebody who seriously consider a shitty on rail moviegame as the epithome of anything, especially when it comes to mechanics, you FF faggots are completely deranged.

>>3558422
I will grant you that 4 is probably the most overrated of the snes games, but if I had to sit down and choose to play either 4 or 9, I would easily pick 4

>>3557841
even the shitty puzzles arent nonsensical "ancient ornate stone blocks" that just for no reason exist in abandoned temples- theyre just debris and boxes you use to actually get over shit. Ivalice in its entirety as a series of games is probably the strangest and best microcosm of wildly different entries within an already larger IP.

I cant think of another game series that has a better setting of several side games within it- that each surpass most of the "normal" entries

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>>3557899
FFIX also has a lot of gear that gives the player permanent bonuses if they level up with that equipped. I don't think it tells you that anywhere in the game though.

>>3558023
This isn't an inherently good thing. There's no reason character progression should be tied to equipment, except stuff like weapon proficiency. FF9 is just pointlessly convoluted.

>>3558422
Definitely not. IV is great, a genuine classic. Much less boring than IX.

>>3559075
>There's no reason character progression should be tied to equipment
There's no reason it shouldn't be either.

You can actually build characters in different ways if you don't max everything out. Running for Excalibur 2 is a great way to try it out

>>3559085
There's absolutely a ton of reasons for not too, FF9 for instance

>>3559098
>Time challenge
>In a game with unrelenting amounts of forced scripted events around every corner
One of the most bizarre things about FF9

>>3555961
wizardry 8 specifically

>>3559075
Simple game for children. "Pointlessly convoluted." lol Lmfao. Fucking moron.

>>3559179
Exactly the low quality follow up post I'd expect. Shameful.

Every great game has an army of retards attacking it. It's sad.

>>3559063
Maybe CRPG fans are right.
Why do JRPG devs do this for no reason?
I kinda get it with Pokemon since it actually makes kind of sense, but this one I don't get it.

>>3559063
wtf

>>3558273
SMT doesn't remotely come close to Pokemon depths of customization. Even the combat as well.

All SMT-people likes to boast it's "better than Pokemon" when the only thing it does better is the encounter design. Everything else is shallow. The "break weakness" press-turn etc. system is dumb and repetitive.

>>3559573
>Every great game has an army of retards attacking it. It's sad.

By that logic FF7 is the greatest game ever lmao

>>3559587
>By that logic FF7 is the greatest game ever
Yes.

>>3559573
You're a brainless Sakaguchi cultist, FF9 is literally shit

>>3558018
>Could you give me an example of a game that does it well
FF Tactics Advanced
>and one that doesn't?
FF9

>>3559063
>>3559583
>>3559584
It's a miniscule amount everytime you level (literally like 0.05 to 0.1).
Even if you minmax it and keep from leveling your characters until the end and hit 99, you only get like 10-15 actual points in the stat.

>>3559807
Boring bait.

>>3559815
Oh, well if you say so, you nobody, it must be true.

>>3558018
I'm the person who said that it's "rare that it works well" someone else responded saying FFTA and FFIX.
My opinion is that I just don't find choosing between "there's a weapon with better stats but I have a weapon with a skill I haven't finished learning yet" to be a very interesting decision to make. Using FF9 and Ys 7 as examples, I either didn't have a problem learning the ability first or the encounters didn't leave me feeling like I needed to get a power boost in exchange for not having access to a skill I was still learning. I said "rare" because I am open to the idea of a game I haven't played implementing this system well. In my memory of playing FFTA2 I recall swapping weapons a lot and finding the game fun. But it's been many years since I played it so I can't give a fair estimation.

>>3559815
>FF Tactics Advanced
how could you fucking bring up "gain skills by grinding with gear equipped" as a good thing for ffta, a game where each battle is going to last like 20 minutes and you have to do dozens of them to get the skill mastered, but a bad thing in ff9, where battles last like two minutes at absolute most and it takes like twenty minutes to master a skill... ff9 haters are so silly

>>3560924
>ff9 haters are so silly
The more things change, the more they stay the same. I suppose you really shouldn't expect much in the way if intelligent analysis from people who got triggered by pixelated monkey tail on the main character.

>>3559098
>You can actually build characters in different ways if you don't max everything out.
Different ways my ass.
Can Zidane cast black or white magic?
Can Freya steal?
Can Quina summon?
No, you can't do any of that shit, you can't build any character in FF9 because outside of the game mechanics being immensely shallow the characters are already, factually prebuilt and there's no customization involved other than choosing to not learn some useless skill in your attack bots and pretending you're """"""""building""""""""" characters, when the game is simply mashing your strongest attacks and healing when your HP is low.

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>>3555853
>What classic JRPG has the best progression system?
Sure as fuck not FF9. Having to wear gear until you learn attached skills is moronic and just leads to grinding or needing to play with shittier gear for a longer time.

>>3560948
>leads to grinding or needing to play with shittier gear for a longer time.
Are all FF9 haters cranky retards like this? Can you even wipe your own asses? Do you complain that it's a waste of time and that you'd rather just waddle around with shitty butt-cracks all day? Jesus.

>>3560947
That is super gay to want every character to cast black magic dude. That is one of the biggest criticisms of systems like materia. Everyone is just a blank slate. So low levels you focus on one physical attacker, one magic attacker, and one healer. Later levels every character is the same with everything maxed out. What a shit game.

>>3560976
Maybe you should be less thin skinned and not throw shitfits at the drop of a hat, fanboy.

>>3560976
>thread about progression systems in games
>ff9 forces you to grind or use shittier gear for longer for no good reason
>"omg like stop hating on ff9!"

>>3560947
>>3560948
Two posts in a row with people describing something. But at no point offering better alternatives.

It's basically if someone is like, "Is Halo a good shooter." Fuck no, you can only carry two weapons!

Like ok, is that bad? What new gameplay results of being limited, what is removed Why are you focused on that, what about other aspects of the game? People just feel things and act like it's a worthy appraisal.

"I have to balance using all my power, and progressing my skills. FUCK THAT."

But why.

>>3560999
utterly invalid complaint. That's like whining that any game that forces you to level up is gatekeeping you from good abilities.

I hate zoomers so fucking much it's unreal.

>>3560986
But anon, that's what building characters means. In 9 you can learn action skills or neglect them and activate passives that are hardwired to every single character. While the materia system isn't incredibly indepth either, the blank slate nature of it allows you to make choices that you can't do in 9

>>3561004
Ok, so in 7 you can do something you can't do in 9. I enjoyed 9 more. Can your brain process that statement?

>>3561002
>Two posts in a row with people describing something. But at no point offering better alternatives.
So now after throwing a overdefensive fanboy shitfit, he throws another

>nooo, your complaints aren't valid unless you present to me a better system
which is just a pathetic defence reaction where you try and protect your own idea by belittling others and trying to force them to do something you either think they won't bother to do (making you mentally go "I won! my ideas about the game are correct!") or something you think you can tear into while moving goalposts. With the goal never being actual discussion or arriving at the truth, only defending a game you like (making you irrationally biased from the beginning and just being a subject of confirmation bias).

Meanwhile you will never put yourself in a position where you have to back up anything you say or thing. You will avoid it at all costs.
Grow up and stop being such a sad fanboy.

>>3561007
Yes, it can. It just points out when people contradict themselves

>>3561009
Why do you call me overly defensive? What is that based on? Your feelings? Like all your posts?

>nooo, your complaints aren't valid unless you present to me a better system

Partially true. You should be able to verbalize why it's bad, and give an alternative as a shining light to buttress your argument. All you're saying is "I need to do something, it's bad." That's meaningless and you're stupid.

"Meanwhile you will never put yourself in a position where you have to back up anything you say or thing. You will avoid it at all costs."

This is false. I always give examples. I used Halo as an example to try and highlight your retardation.

>>3561012
My point being with that, is that they simply declare blank slate is better. I think having 8 blank slate characters could work, but so could a limited skill set. And in FF9 it works being limited. The only argument put forth was "multiple playthroughs are similar." I'd argue there are many other features that make multiple play throughs unique. So I'm going to need more here.

>>3561013
>Why do you call me overly defensive? What is that based on? Your feelings? Like all your posts?
Good lord. You then go off on another shitfit tangent while trying to tell us that you're calm, rational and unbiased. Zero mental awareness.

>This is false. I always give examples. I used Halo as an example to try and highlight your retardation.
Your analogy is stupid and irrelevant, while also serving as a goal post moving so you do not actually have to defend anything about the subject matter. i.e. FF9. Your "analogy" only served one purpose, for ammo to shit on people that dared insult a game you have a raging hard-on for.

Here's an idea. How about YOU tell us why it's such an amazing and perfect system since you clearly love it so much. Break it down in detail (which you demand others to do).
You know, prove you have some capacity for rational thinking and discussion so people know to actually bother interacting with you and you're not just gonna throw shitfits ad nauseum.
We both know you won't of course, since that's how people like you roll. Attack others and logical fallacies only. Go ahead and prove me right so I don't have to treat you like a mentally mature adult anymore.

>>3561018
>Your analogy is stupid and irrelevant, while also serving as a goal post moving so you do not actually have to defend anything about the subject matter. i.e. FF9. Your "analogy" only served one purpose, for ammo to shit on people that dared insult a game you have a raging hard-on for.

False. It was a direct comparison to how you're acting. It seems to hurt when someone holds a mirror up to yourself. It's exactly the same fucking thing. "FUCK TWO WEAPONS." "FUCK NOT BEING ABLE TO HAVE 8 BLACK MAGES." You can say that's not the same thing. But it is. You need to expand on WHY you have the conclusion you have.

>Here's an idea. How about YOU tell us why it's such an amazing and perfect system since you clearly love it so much. Break it down in detail (which you demand others to do).

Overall FF9 strived to be refined and complete. And that's what it was. From having a world full of secrets and areas to explore. Side quests and locations. A very full game with great music and graphics. In terms of the battle system we see this design philosophy again. Typical JRPG combat It's what you expect and well done. With a few features thrown in like learning abilities from weapons to offer some depth. Balancing learning with being at your strongest. Sacrificing the present for the future. You have your typical white/black mage, knight, thief etc. With some unique characters and abilities (Quina and their eating for example). On repeated play throughs players can focus on things like beating Ozma, getting a golden Chocabo, collecting cards, achieving S-Rank, using new party members, collecting Ultima Weapons, collecting various Trophies and Titles.

FF9 completeness is contrasted greatly by a game like FF13 where you walk in a straight line for 20 hours. No exploration. No items.

>>3561003
tl;dr the FF9 system was just a way to control when characters could learn new skills, with no upside and a lot of downsides

Design intent
>Serve as a way to control when characters could start to learn new skills in terms of area progress (but there are many other ways to do it, so it's not even a specific require solution)

Con
>Can force a lot of grinding to learn skills, since you're limited to what you can carry and level at once. It can also force backtrack grinding.
>Can force players to not use new gear they find or buy, because they have to keep earning xp for the skills for the old gear. Which either makes them want to halt progress to grind it up or progress in the story and intentionally gimp themselves and be weaker (but not in any interesting strategic or systemic way).
>To learn a new skill a character has to find a specific piece of gear.
>Ironically leveling up becomes almost irrelevant and extremely unexciting. Something players no longer care about since it barely gives them anything.
>All of it is exclusively tied to the character (so anything you invest cannot be transferred like materia or gf's). Which means characters can very easily fall behind unless you keep using them, gearing them up with new gear with relevant skills, which creates more busywork for not benefit.
>Since skills are learned through gear, you cannot level it up on more characters at once, unless you might have another piece of said gear, which often isn't the case. Which can lead to even more grinding.
>etc

It's just a bad, shallow and uninteresting progression system.

>>3560986
>That is super gay to want every character to cast black magic dude
So you don't actually care about character building
>That is one of the biggest criticisms of systems like materia. Everyone is just a blank slate.
That's because FF is a shit series in general, it has nothing to do with customization as a concept but rather a terrible example of that.
And to be perfectly honest I'd take Materia, shit as it is, over something with no customization whatosever.
>>3561002
>But at no point offering better alternatives.
Anything with actual customization is automatically a better alternative to FFIX.
Even dumpster fires like Pathfinder are better because at least they vaguely pretend to respect me as a player and let me do things the way I want, even if it's mostly smoke and mirrors since PF is another garbage system, fucking FF1 and FF2 got it right on the NES for fuck's sake, the series did nothing but go backwards after those two.

>>3561004
>the blank slate nature of it allows you to make choices that you can't do in 9
this is worse, to me. i like it when characters have specific roles that make them more unique from each other. the only difference between characters in most ff titles, 7 included, is their stats and their limit break.

>>3561039
>Can force a lot of grinding to learn skills
I give partial points to this. I wouldn't say "a lot" but sure, it can lead to the player engaging in a few extra battles.
>Can force players to not use new gear
I don't see this as an issue.
>To learn a new skill a character has to find a specific piece of gear.
Not an issue
>Ironically leveling up becomes almost irrelevant and extremely unexciting.
This is somewhat true. Not much was tied to leveling.

I'm just trying to think of games with great leveling experiences. I can't really think of any that stand out as being great. Diablo had leveling that for sure mattered and always felt great. But it was such a pain in the ass because of how set in stone everything was. Where in FF9 it encouraged new builds.

>>3561042
>the only difference between characters in most ff titles, 7 included, is their stats and their limit break.
There's no difference between characters in FF9 either because the game is a shallow damage race with no resource management like the other FF.
Having different animations and locked stat sticks doesn't make your characters unique when your system is all about who gets the biggest nukes and who heals better, FF7 and FF9 are identical gameplay wise, the only difference is that in FF7 you can sorta decide who's your healer.
And if a ROLE PLAYING game doesn't allow you to actually roleplay what the fuck is even the point? Just more proof that FF is a series for normalfags who don't care about any of that, which is why nowadays it's copying DMC and Witcher and doing it wrong instead of copying DQ and doing it wrong.

>>3561052
none of what you said in your post is true lol

>>3561042
>>3561042
That's what he doesn't get. He's just saying "IT'S BETTER."

Halo better than AOEII!
-Why?

Because it has GUNS RETARD.

Ok but I don't like guns?

It's bizarre that he can't process that not everyone wants everyone to be an empty slate. That there are two legitimate styles of game that can be made.

>>3561058
Feel free to prove it considering nothing matters in FF9 other than reaching the 9999 damage cap, which is trivial, and healing when your HP is low.
Same thing that happens in FF7 too but in that game big multihits are the meta, which is why characters like Vincent are shit by design and things like KoTR exist.

>>3559075
It makes every single piece of equipment in the game meaningful, and ties into the emphasis on the thief protagonist. FFIX has one of the best steal/loot tables in the entire genre. I don't think you're much of a critical thinker.

>>3561034
>False
Wrong. At >>3560948 a complaint is raised and 2 valid reasons given tied to grinding or intentionally handicapping yourself despite having access to better gear. Even when finding gear that excitement is lost since you have to still use the inferior gear for quite some time. If you're unlucky that might even mean you pass that gear and run into the same problem again.

Now instead of using ff9, you chose another completely different game.
Instead of choosing a similar scenario, as in what analogies are for. You instead chose one which is a strawman so you can shit on that, not the actual ff9 complaint.
The example from Halo is a general broad "is x a good game" (which didn't happen with ff9, instead it would make sense to use a system like the shield instead) and then a shallow complain with no reasoning behind it (which did exist in the ff9 post).

So not only wasn't it actually an analogy, the only purpose of it was to attack the other person using logical fallacies.

In case you weren't aware. The purpose of an analogy is to take something as close as possible to the original thing someone might have issue understanding, to recontextualize it in an easier to understand scenario. This you obviously did not do.

>>3561051
Replying to myself, but this makes me think. FF9 might not have a system where leveling up by itself feels good, but by attaching items to the level up process you felt progression constantly which felt good. And when you got that item you needed it felt so fucking good. So, it still felt fantastic to progress. It just wasn't directly related to leveling up, which I'd argue offers more depth to the process as a result.

>>3561062
>It makes every single piece of equipment in the game meaningful
If that were true people wouldn't default to the strongest possible equipment in the game.
>FFIX has one of the best steal/loot tables in the entire genre
The fact that random animals carry magical equipment that only humans can use is already enough to prove you wrong and prove you're not a critical thinker.

>>3561051
>counter points are just "not an issue"
Uh huh. So people need to elaborate but not you.

>I'm just trying to think of games with great leveling experiences
Which FF9 is the exact opposite of, as we just saw.

>Where in FF9 it encouraged new builds.
It didn't. It just made the player grind a lot more and jump through more hoops before earning new skills for no good design reason. Just like a normal leveling system where you learn skills by leveling, each character is restricted to what they can learn. It actively results in far more restrictive builds. In fact it's even more restrictive here since players are forced to find and then grind up each piece of gear for each character. In FF7, FF8 or games with jobs you can mix there is far more build variety and control.

>Grinding in any FF game
Seriously? Its always been unnecessary unless you have some severe neurosis that says that you have to get everything right away.

>>3561064
>Wrong.
False. Saying you have to do something is not an argument. It's a conclusion, or a statement. I never felt grinding was a problem on FF9. I never felt dread in leveling. I'd need to hear an argument that it was in excess or something. Also I thought being barred from the best weapons was a good thing. So you can't simply state something an expect people to just accept your shitty conclusions.

>Now instead of using ff9, you chose another completely different game.

But I did eat breakfast?

Sorry you have trouble with hypotheticals and analogies anon. A sign of low IQ, I'm sorry anon.

Listen, you're basically asking me to spoon feed you at this point. And you, or some other faggot, asked me to describe some of the logic behind FF9 being a good game. I did. And was ignored. I ask you to defend your logic, and you have fucking melt downs. Very defensive.

>>3561061
>nothing matters in FF9 other than reaching the 9999 damage cap
you're already operating from the stance of "jrpgs are about grinding to maximum stats so you can oneshot everything" so you're fundamentally playing the genre wrong and complaining about it from that angle. nothing to really say to that lmao

>>3561073
"I have to do a bit of work, a bit of exploration, to get rewarded!"

Ya that's not a fucking problem lmfao. You people are fucking gay lmfao

>>3561073
>It didn't.
Except it did. You could change your abilities at any time. Encouraging swapping out teammates, and switching up overall group dynamics based on weapons, team members, abilities know at the time. That is literally what it does anon. This is a polar opposite to say, D2, where abilities are set in stone barring a total rewrite of the character which they limit. Your faggot ego can't even accept a simple truth such as swapping abilities at any moment means you can swap abilities at any moment. Fuck off already. I'm done here.

>>3561079
>you're already operating from the stance of "jrpgs are about grinding to maximum stats so you can oneshot everything"
Not really, because luckily the genre isn't entirely composed of low effort trash like FF, there's many great games out there where there's thought put into combat, let alone general gameplay, FF just isn't one of those series, FFIX being probably one of the worst in the series.
>so you're fundamentally playing the genre wrong
I am playing a simple moviegame with some poorly thought out gameplay inbetween hours of shitty cutscenes wrong? What is there in FFIX other than watching cutscenes and some poorly thought out batles?
There's no choices the player can take to see different outcomes to story section, there's no customization, there's no exploration either since the game is on rails from start to finish, the combat is pathetically bad to the point that it really doesn't matter what the fuck you're doing outside of seeing big numbers on the screen, it's laughably primitive in every single aspect and it's made worse by the fact that again, players have no choice in anything other than engaging in some shitty arcade minigames for...combat rewards that are simply not worth suffering though bad minigames.

It's impossible to play FFIX wrong because there's no player agency, freedom or expression, you can only play it only as the designers wanted you to play.

>>3561078
Sorry, I assumed you were a rational adult. I was wrong. Thanks for making that clear so we can disregard you as the fandrone you are. Keep on shitposting and getting upset over people not praising a game you zealously love.

>>3561040
So I am guessing you don't have much experience with gaming and "character building" from what you are arguing is just everyone being a blank slate that you add everything to. In that scenario each character is still "tied down" to the realms of the game world and whatever abilities the creator puts in. What character building actually refers to in games can be thought more of as a tree where you choose the path a character grows up in, for example a focus on thievery for Zidane in ff9 over other abilities while a character "grows". The system you seem to be arguing for is to have everything blank which removes the distinguishing characteristics between the different cast of characters. This has been a long tradition in gaming rpgs, both crpgs and jrpgs. I hope you have a better understanding of the reason people enjoy playing these types of games. It seems like you are more of a fan of "sandbox" games like minecraft

>>3561080
So what you're saying is that absoutely all grinding in anything is fine and you love it every single time. There isn't a single case where you don't think it's not fine.

>>3561082
>Except it did. You could change your abilities at any time.
That's not what builds are. Or if you want to take a very narrow view on it, then yes FF9 had a very limited way of making "builds" compared to other games. It's like recommending Mario Kart to fans of Forza and Gran Turismo because technically the different karts have different stats "just like in Gran Turismo". It's like the simplistic kiddie version where if you squint really hard and put five asterisks next to it, then technically it's correct. But it's effectively just dumbing it down.

Why you keep trying to insult me as if you think that somehow helps your case (it just weakens it and demonstrates how irrational and immature you are and how you have to fall back on logical fallacies) is beyond me.
The only kind of people I seriously discuss things with are rational and mature people with sound reasoning and facts. Take a wild guess how you keep painting yourself.

>>3561073
>forced to find and then grind up each piece of gear for each character
No, not at all.
What happens for intelligent players is they go
>do i need this item's ability in this area?
>should i sacrifice some stats while I run this dungeon in order to learn a useful ability?
>ah, I don't need extra stats on this boss. I can use its AP rewards to learn an ability from a weaker statted item

what unintelligent players (such as yourself) do is go
>wow me no thinky, me can't make decision
>decision hurt brain
>me grind for no reason so me no have to make choices

>>3561109
>99% of the post is a shitpost insult, no arguments
Try again if you want a serious reply.
Fine if you autistically need to add the insults, but at least add some proper arguments without bias next time. If I have to mentally coddle and manipulate you like a child to wrangle you into a basic discussion, that's too much work for no benefit to me.
I discuss things to challenges my ideas, unlike you. Not feel like I'm working extra at the daycare center.

>>3561109
Exactly. I never felt ff9 was a grinding game. You just think a bit. And that’s where anon runs into problems.

>>3561106
This is some of the most poor whataboutism and mental gymnastic I've seen in a long time.
Even leaving out the fact that I'm older than most of the demographics of this website including you:
>character building" from what you are arguing is just everyone being a blank slate that you add everything to
This is already a poorly structured sentence that makes no sense.
Every character you create has to start as a blank slate by pure necessity, the first thing you do in 99% of tabletop games is to create a stat sheet because characters don't magically come with one out of the blue.
Secondly, there's also games that do give you premade layouts, which you can then customize further to your liking, FFIX is neither of these, it's a game that gives you fully premade characters and a laundry list of skills, most of which are also trash you'll never use because the game is that poorly designed.
>In that scenario each character is still "tied down" to the realms of the game world and whatever abilities the creator puts in.
Nonsensical statement written by a manchild who thinks he's smarter than he actually is.
There's a major difference between a game system that gives you 100 options and tells you to create anything you want with those within the limits of the system and a game that gives you none, FFIX is the latter, it's a game with no options and no player agency, you do not create nor customize characters.
>What character building actually refers to in games can be thought more of as a tree where you choose the path a character grows up in
No, only manchildren who never played an actual RPG would think of that, and FFIX isn't like that either because there's no skill tree to begin with.

Stop posting, you're not intelligent enough to argue about game design, especially for a genre you clearly have zero interest in, it's honestly depressing to even respond to you.

What's the point of grinding for skills when most of them are duplicated on gear and so you'll naturally max them out from playing the game normally? The ability to freely swap gear means that you're able to adjust based on whatever you need for a given battle anyway.
Is this entire "argument" based on the idea that FF9 is worse than FFTA because FFTA uses blank slates where as 9 uses predefined characters and you have to make do with what you have at a given point of the game?

>>3561108
So which Final Fantasy is Gran Turismo in this analogy? Or are you mad again that ff simply exists? And it should instead be a battle sim?

>>3561116
Except getting new skills is directly tied to grinding and it can grow quite a bit and fare more extreme than in other JRPGs or even FF.

Claiming that grinding isn't a valid problem or a potential big issue because "you can choose not to get any skills at all or just a handful" is avoiding the issue entirely and putting on blinders.

The second part of this is that even IF you really really wanted to disregard the potential issues, there are no actual benefits to this system.
Even IF you for some strange reason really wanted a system like this, you could easily fix it in various simple ways (which is pointless, since the damage is already dones so to speak).

Claiming all the things listed as not valid issues and people are just idiots is the most immature and fanboyish way to go about zealously defending it.

>>3561117
Wow lots of adhoms without actually arguing anything but yelling "I don't understand what you are saying!! Stop talking!!"
I hope you know that video game rpgs are not tabletop rpgs. Even if you play direct ports like dungeons and dragons they don't allow you to pick and choose anything you can imagine.
Try playing some video games then come back and talk about them with the rest of the group.
Sorry you feel so old that you needed to point it out to me.

>>3561124
>I hope you know that video game rpgs are not tabletop rpgs
They're not, but they descend directly from those, so most of the basics are inevitably the same.
>Even if you play direct ports like dungeons and dragons they don't allow you to pick and choose anything you can imagine.
They do though.
I can create a character in BG3 or WoTR exactly the way I want, with the stats I want, class/subclass I want, skills I want, spells I want, Alignments I want, equipment I want etc., and from the character creation screen to the very end of the game I have full control over the growth of my character too.
I can do nothing of the sort in FFIX, because it's not an RPG, it's a shallow, poorly written moviegame for children and retards.
>Try playing some video games
I guarantee you I play more videogames, especially RPGs, than you do, which is why I don't praise trash like FFIX in the first place and don't write pointless platitudes and various other illogical statements like you do.

Again, stop posting, you're anonymous and you've got no pride to your username, shut up and move on with your life instead of insisting on looking like a clown.

>>3561119
>So which Final Fantasy is Gran Turismo in this analogy?
I see, you got triggered and tried to use my point I corrected you on against me. Sorry, but that doesn't work when you're not very bright.

The point you or your buttbuddy tried to peddle was this
>technically FF9 has a lot of builds
But compared to the alternative in other JRPGs or even FFs, that's so minescule and restrictive in comparison it's effectively irrelevant. Hence the GT analogy
>technically the karts in Mario Kart have different stats, so if you like Gran Turismo because you can choose different cars with different stats (gross oversimplification, which is also the case with FF9) so technically Mario Kart also has tons of car options to choose from
where the difference between the depth and varietity is astronomical.

Basically, trying to sell the idea that somehow the FF9 progression system results in a vast array of build options is comical. Especially when by design it heavily restricts it.

>>3561132
So your argument is just that bg3 is better than ff9? What a weird thing to get so upset about. You might enjoy fable and skyrim as well. Can you see the big difference between the games? You are assuredly old and experienced enough from what you are saying. In final fantasy games you are taking a cast of characters through the story. These characters often have set "jobs" or "classes" that follow a TRIGGER WARNING: "character tree". This tradition goes back to wizardry and dragon quest 2, and especially final fantasy 1 where you pick classes at the beginning of the game. It is okay that you prefer bg3. People having preferences doesn't upset me. But to argue that one method of character growth is objectively inferior is ultimately futile. All you can strip such an argument down to is something like "I just like it more" even though you have so many others in the thread saying that they prefer the other method. I hope I typed this out simply enough for you to understand it clearly. Hope you are having a good time with bg3

>>3561123
New skills aren’t related to grinding anon. You can equip the item and then you know, just play the game like normal. And most abilities are tied to multiple items. So your meltdown is over nothing. Also that comment above was cute “So you’re saying you love all grinding!?!!!!” No you fucking faggot that’s not what I said lmfao

>>3561133
No. I used the point you were trying to make, but correctly. There are many set ups based on items, what you’re trying to achieve and simply what characters you think are cool. Some people love Freya. Some love Vivi. Skills can be changed to maximize effectiveness. You then said even with all this available it was the equivalent of Mario Kart. So I simply asked ok anon, if it’s Mario Kart then what is Forza? And you melt down like a BITCH. Don’t say something if you can’t defend it.

>>3560924
Because the skills are actually useful in Tactics Advanced

>>3561158
FFTA also has its share of useless/overrated skills. For example, Dual Wield is worse than W.Atk+ for 90% of your physical humes because the second weapon doesnt affect skills and you eventually get to the point where you either OHKO everything either through raw damage or instant death abuse (where Concentrate becomes god). Additionally, Turbo MP strictly outclasses Half MP because it boosts damage + accuracy allowing you to kill things faster.
Growth wise, Def/M.Def are terrible stats because they scale like shit and you're better off focusing on attacking stats and speed.

>>3561152
>New skills aren’t related to grinding anon
If you want to keep them. This is factual.

You also ignored most of the post and only replied to the things your close-mindedness could handle. Ok. You do you.

>>3561155
>No. I used the point you were trying to make, but correctly.
No you didn't but I can see arguing with your retarded close-minded ass is pointless. Since you plug your ears and only hear what you want hear.

You're also consistently moving goal posts, which is a sure fire way of making me lose all interest in engaging with you further. Since someone incapable of staying on point is like trying to have a conversation with a shizo.

People list 10 points and you ignore all of them to focus on an irrelevant logical fallacy like some pre-teen girl.
The discussion was literally abotu builds, but since you failed to refute what I said about that the logical and factual conclusion is that you cannot refute it and are just in denial. So glad we cleared that up.
Until you refute it, you directly admit you're wrong and incapable of backing up your own ideas. End of story.

>>3561193
Not that guy, but you dont need to grind to keep skills in FF9. The encounter rate is high enough that you're going to be maxing stuff left and right by the time you're done with the game. Doubly so if you do sidequests.
Running around in the same spot fighting trash is wholly unnecessary, especially given the difficulty of the average FF.

>>3561193
>No you didn't but I can see arguing with your retarded close-minded ass is pointless. Since you plug your ears and only hear what you want hear.

>You're also consistently moving goal posts, which is a sure fire way of making me lose all interest in engaging with you further. Since someone incapable of staying on point is like trying to have a conversation with a shizo.

You just can't make an argument backed up with arguments to save your life can you.
-Moving goal posts.
-Can't stay on point.
-Incapable of backing up ideas

First two, conclusions you made, which you feel you're above having to prove. Thus I ignore them. You are not above suspicion and thus we must comb through your logic. You aren't allowed to just say shit like I move the goal post. You are not allowed to make this style of post. I forbid you. The closest you, or really anyone, has made is that FF9 requires grinding. I would argue that "grinding" is not needed, you just need to play the game. But that's closest anyone has come to actually making an actual supporting statement. Other shit is basically just you saying Red is gay and Blue is better. Wasting everyone's fucking time. "No blank slate is better and the only suitable game play design" The ego needed to make this statement is fucking incredible. Literal S Tier Retard comment.

Last point, I've repeatedly given long explanations of game mechanics, their intended purpose, why they are justified, how they fit in with the overall theme of the game etc. It's you that has a very femininely way of arguing where just ignore everything of substance to and then make up wild accusations. Idk why I even give you attention if you aren't blowing me.

>>3561199
What is "necessary" is irrelevant. If you want to go that route nothing but what you need for some critpath speedrun is relevant.
A player will frequently come across scenario where gear has skills they want and they will need to grind to get it, in addition to the other points raised at >>3561039

The crux is just that the system is straight up bad in terms of progression systems. Some people obviously can't handle that and get upset when someone "shit talks" a game they really love.

There are many games I really like, but I would never ever defend all the bad systems or anything else in the game. I for example like Elden Ring, but I could write an essay on all the issues that game has. I'm not a fanboy of anything or anyone.

>>3561208
>You just can't make an argument backed up with arguments to save your life can you.
I literally did >>3561039 which was ignored apart from the post here >>3561051 which either agreed with the points, ignored them or said "not an issue" with zero elaboration.

When challenged in regards to this, the fanboys shat the bed hard and abandoned the points and discussion entirely.

Now go ahead and tell me how you "already disproved everything in that post", without giving any specifics or anything. That's what people like you always do.

>>3561212
When I say not an issue, it's because it's you saying red is better than blue. Like here -
>To learn a new skill a character has to find a specific piece of gear.
>Not an issue

Tell me why the fuck you feel no game is allowed to have items one must find in order to get a specific benefit. Like what kind of fucking thinking is that. Of course I didn't elaborate on such an absurd "argument".

Con
>Can force a lot of grinding to learn skills
Already explained by multiple anons to be incorrect or so exaggerated it doesn't matter.
>Can force players to not use new gear they find or buy
>To learn a new skill a character has to find a specific piece of gear.
In other words, red good, blue bad. With a dash of ADHD. "Mommy I want everything NOW!!!! I see, I want!"
>Ironically leveling up becomes almost irrelevant and extremely unexciting.
True but as I pointed out, they replaced simple leveling with more in depth systems requiring engaging with the world to find items. This of course requires some thought, so I know you're not a fan.
>Since skills are learned through gear, you cannot level it up on more characters at once
So you're mad that like, 8 players can't equip the same pair of boots?

>>3561216
He strictly wants character growth to copy bg3 and can't bother with anything else. The basis of this thought seems to be that it is the most similar to tabletop gaming but it still isn't anywhere near the same as playing a game tabletop with a dm. That requires a lot of communication and imagination that you aren't going to get from a video game. He knows it is just his preference so he has to resort to name calling to keep people responding to his bizarre claims. Just 4chan stuff I guess

>>3561216
>When I say not an issue, it's because it's you saying red is better than blue.
No, it's not the same. Stop using analogies when you don't know how to use them. It just muddies the vague point you're trying to get across.

The rest of your post does exactly what I said you would. Deflect and not answer, like
>Already explained by multiple anons to be incorrect or so exaggerated it doesn't matter.
If you cannot give a straight answer when prompted, you are incorrect because you are incapable of doing so. Pussyfooting by saying for 15 posts in a row "b-but I already answered that, trust me, go look it's there somewhere!" is you admitting to this in your denial.

Your red & blue analogy is also insanely stupid and wrong.
>can for players not to use new gear
is not some "uuuh, i like blue more". It's that the systems in place that make players feel like they have to grind or use shittier gear despite getting new one so they can get the skill.
Your red & blue analogy would work if it was a case of cosmetics, like changing the color of Zidane's pants. But this is something that fundamentally changes players behaviour.

>With a dash of ADHD. "Mommy I want everything NOW!!!! I see, I want!"
So you'd be fine if it took 15 hours of grind for every piece of gear to unlock said skill.
Remind me to tell you that you're retarded every single time you see something you do not enjoy doing IRL or in a game. Just like you're doing now.

>they replaced simple leveling with more in depth systems...
No. They didn't. They just made leveling mostly irrelevant and made getting skills more tedious, awkward and results in worse pacing for absolutely no benefit. There is no additional depth. Just extra steps.
If I buy a new TV and I have to watch 50 hours of cooking shows before I can watch the sport channel, that is not more depth. It's just padding.

>This of course requires some thought
It requires zero thought.

>So you're mad that like, 8 ...
Missing the point entirely.

>>3561226
>He strictly wants character growth to copy bg3 and can't bother with anything else.
Please retard. Pull your head from out of your ass and specify the exact post where this is stated or even implied.

What you and your buttbuddy can't get through their thick skulls is that the progression system in FF9 has issues and no proper benefits.
Some people (especially obsessive fanboys) can be fine with it. Non-fanboys however can have legit reasons for not liking the shallow and padded system in FF9.
There is one specific fanboy ITT that absolutely cannot handle this.

>>3561229
I've already told you that I'm fine with you not liking ff9. I don't care if you like it or not. But ofc you have to keep name calling to get attention. I hope you aren't actually this sad of a person in real life.

>>3561232
>I've already told you that I'm fine with you not liking ff9
I have not specified my opinion on FF9. Try reading the thread next time.

You're also clearly no ok with it, considering how much you insult people for not agreeing with you and not liking what you like. Even more so considering how close-minded and irrational you're behaving in regards to all this, which only happens when someone cannot be objective about a topic.

But clearly I gave you too much benefit of doubt and treated you too much like a mature rational person. Don't worry, I realized my mistake and it won't happen again. I clearly wasted my time trying to discuss the progression system with you.

>>3561236
Hoooooooly shit, what is this bizarre psyop? I'm literally telling you that I am okay with you liking or not liking ff9 and you respond with "I never said I don't like it! You are crazy and closed minded!" I haven't called you any names but with each response you give you fly further off the handle. Please relax a little bit and try to regain your composure. You like ff9? Great! You don't like it? Great! You like it but don't like the progression system? Great! You make weird connections in your head about what the progression system does wrong? Great! You name call everyone who disagrees with your weird thought process? That's when you get the weird nonsense arguments. I hope that is simple enough to understand.

>>3561228
>No, it's not the same. Stop using analogies when you don't know how to use them. It just muddies the vague point you're trying to get across.

I told you you're not allowed to post like this anymore, sweetie. You are not deemed worthy of judging quality and directly making conclusions, such as "it muddies the vague point".

>If you cannot give a straight answer when prompted
Bizarre response. I didn't give a straight answer, I gave MULTIPLE responses to this, and other anons. You could have responded like "In some post you didn't read I addressed it with this response" and then I would have had to counter your counter. But with this, I just come away confused as how to multiple responses, which is more than 1 anon, you say no response was given. Very strange.

>So you'd be fine if it took 15 hours of grind for every piece of gear to unlock said skill.
Honey, try to stay focused on what I say, and not imaginary arguments in your head. It doesn't take 15 hours to grind. It takes between 0-15 minutes.

>No. They didn't.
Again you're just technically wrong. Like you said before when you denied real time ability changes doesn't allow real time ability changes (which is equivalent to real time build changes). Yes anon, they decided to not focus on leveling benefits and went with another system that requires more than just kill enemy, get strong. You might not like it, but that's what they went with. You need to learn that just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it isn't true. EVEN if the majority agree they failed in implementing their vision, or the majority don't like it, they DID implement an alternative progression system that rewards exploration and paying attention to dialog.

>It requires zero thought.
Again, it does require more than zero thought, so once again just based on pure logic, pure reason, you are wrong. This is not questionable, take a logic course and you'll see that you're wrong on a mathematical level.

>>3561209
Equipping a different piece of gear will give you temporary access to its skills. Some of these skills as mentioned before by other posters are on 2, 3, 4 or even 5 different pieces of gear.
What this means is that if I come across a Fire weak boss or an area full of enemies weak to Fire, I can let Vivi wear gear that gives him Fira for that section and change to something else after. Or I can let everyone who can learn Bird Killer wear the gear for it again a flying boss.

Grinding is a self inflicted problem. The same goes for other games with this system like the FFTA subseries.

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>>3555990
My wife got really into Trails and for the older games used to at first have a notebook out with her "quartz math" written down in it.

>>3561284
>'everyone I don't like is a nazi'
>'everyone I don't like is satanic'

Rereading the thread it is sad that communication is so difficult for some people. All anon had to say was something like "I don't like the progression method because it feels restrictive/feels pointless/feels too grindy" the conversation would make a lot more sense. I mean that anon would still be wrong but I think that was the argument

>>3561067
>If that were true people wouldn't default to the strongest possible equipment in the game.
It is true, and you can even miss out on gear that gives you certain skills. Equipment has elemental strengths and weaknesses, resistance to status ailments, bonus stats on level-up and so on, and some of the equipment can be used as items similar to FFI, which casts free spells. You don't understand this game, but it sure makes you mad. Face it, you got filtered by basic JRPG progression design and you're too dumb to see it, so it instead makes you mad.

>>3561062
>FFIX has one of the best steal/loot tables in the entire genre. I don't think you're much of a critical thinker.
How so? It's pretty much the exact same for most other FFs

>>3558177
>it's so fucking boring having to grind out a skill using a shitty weapon
I never had to grind once. I just kept the weapon on until the skill was mastered and then moved onto the next. I had no issue learning everything by the end of the game without explicitly going to grind, but if I wanted to, the game had the friendly monster encounters to give you huge chunks of AP all at once.

It was very easy to figure out. I guess maybe not so easy if you're stupid. Are you stupid, anon?

>>3561443
>you got filtered by basic JRPG progression design and you're too dumb to see it,
I don't think that's quite the case. I think there's a huge subset of FF fans who got into the series through 7 (obviously) and they are just eternally buttmad that 8 and 9 weren't the exact same game over again.

>>3561586
>I had no issue learning everything by the end of the game without explicitly going to grind.
Lies, I ended the game with half of the passives to learn for my team because it takes forever to learn abilities compared to how easy it's to advance.
And yes, I kept on the obsolete equipment till the character learned the ability.
Final Fantasy IX's main dedication is to make completionists insane. If you don't give a damn you can see you can complete the plot (and kill Ozma) while ignoring half of the game's content.

>>3561481
There was no stealing or loot tables until ff4 which just let you steal the most common enemy drop which was never a weapon. In ff5 you could steal low level consumables and maybe one or two weapons but nothing too useful that you aren't already able to purchase. In ff6 you can steal equipment that can be useful but the rare impressive equipment is at the end of the game. ff7 has a couple of instances that let you steal a good weapon or armor early enough to make a difference, this is kinda the start of the ff9 method, but definitely not through the whole game. ff8 just let's you steal materials because you don't have weapons or armor that you can purchase anyway. I don't know if anyone has ever tried to steal in ff8 actually. In ff9 it is consistently a good idea to steal multiple things from each boss you encounter because it gives you equipment that is unaccessible for the next few areas of the game, putting you at a large advantage over someone who doesn't steal. It is also the first ff where you can steal different items from the same enemy where earlier games just let you keep trying to get the same item (ff4) or you get only a single item per enemy and hope you can get the rare one.

>>3561669
Stealing originated in FF3 if memory serves me correctly. 3D is when it became relevant via Gungnir and the Item Lore effect on Scholar.
In 5, you can steal the second strongest hat and a core dancer item in Ronka. Getting it normally is several hours down the line. IIRC the best anti Shinryu weapons were either steals or rare drops. Its been a while.

>>3561694
Ooh good call with ff3, though it doesn't matter in the famicom game. I kinda remember the ff5 steal stuff. I think you are right about the dragon lance. Still not as important or refined as ff9

>>3561669
While it's a milestone for FF, stealing was way more interesting in Star Ocean 2, because it had function outside of combat and the items you could get were massively important and you could even lift personal items off of your own party

I've still, after all these years, have never gotten Excal II. T_T

>>3556038
>Trails is not a classic RPG

Depends on your age, trails is 20 years old now.
When I was in my 20's those games from 20 years ago were the classics for me.
Welcome to getting older and hating the new stuff in ways you'll never understand

>>3555853
Sphere grid from FF10.
I hate it when i was 12.
But now I would like to play a modern RPG with this kind of system.
(POE ?)

>>3561715
to expand on this point - ff5 has a few good enemies to steal from (gilgamesh) but its mostly garbage, much like ff4, ff6, and ff7. ff8 could be good if you were clever at refining materials but you were mostly getting low level stuff unless you started manipulating enemy levels. ff9 by far had the most impactful loot tables for stealing, but this was also annoying due to enemies having several items to steal, and the steal mechanic itself was very disadvantageous to the player (you have to make a check to see if you can even steal, then if you pass, you roll on the table to see what you can steal, if the item is stolen you essentially fail again).

Also, to answer OPs question, I honestly would like a system similar to DQ6 or DQ7 maybe. Just have a system that scaled off of enemies killed or battles won. have a level cap on the enemies so you dont grind in the newbie zones all day. make the class progress long with rewarding passive bonuses at the end. Allow different class skills to combine together if a player gets far in multiple classes. have "advanced" classes that require the mastery of a few other base classes. Stuff like that.

Trails of Cold Steel

>>3555853
Final Fantasy II and VIII.