>These NPCs are not scripted. We give them general goals and they figure out on their own how to accomplish them.Obviously Todd was lying about how complex the radiant AI was in Oblivion, but it's been 20 years. We now have ALL the technology we need to actually make it real and make it work. So why don't any RPGs actually do it? It would make them so much more immersive and alive and fun.
>>3651581I liked the approach they took. Although it would be better if traveling NPCs didn't get killed by wildlife
Well, I'm making an rpg now. Give me some ideas for AI you'd like to see. Not going to use chatgpt for dialog. But will be thinking of ways to make AI more life like.
>>3651581To me the problem is it's such a roundabout way to get handful of "that's neat" reactions until players totally ignore it exists. Gothic did the NPC routines much simpler to pretty much the same result. This breakdown by the hour is largely pointless for a game like Oblivion where simple day-night would've sufficed just as well.
>>3651588>Give me some ideasWoah hey. I can only criticize, there's not a single constructive thought in me. Maybe after you're done, I can tell you what you did wrong?
>>3651590I disagree. I loved NPC's having daily routines, by the hour or every few hours. >>3651602I was thinking to have AI's run by archetypes. And then extremes in that archetype. Like if they are a warrior, with extreme warrior tendencies, then if you bump into them they'll try to kill you. Or, if they are a warrior, but more balanced, you'll get a different reaction. Another might be a thief type, gambler. If they are extreme maybe they get rich, or maybe they go in debt. If they go in debt to an NPC with an archetype that isn't forgiving, well, now you have a murder case. We'll see if I boil this down into an effective system.
>>3651581Because it easily spirals into chaos even for relatively low NPC density.Sure, you could spend hundreds of hours tweaking all parameters to get a somewhat stable configuration and then pray the player's actions won't throw it off balance too easily, or you could go for a more conventional AI and get consistent results with 1% of the effort.Highly emergent systems are better reserved for roguelites a la Streets of Rogue, where the system sliding into an unpleasant state won't fuck up a save with dozens of hours of playtime.
>>3651616I've thought about this. I would really just need a system to reset if things go wild. Which I think I could figure out. But also, just limit how wild shit can get. Bethesda talks about an NPC clearing out all the traders in town of inventory for whatever reason and cite that as a reason to walk back AI. To me that's just lazy programming. I can think of 3 solutions to that issue right now.
>>3651618>I can think of 3 solutions to that issue right nowPlease list them, I can't think of a single one that doesn't either completely invalidate the system or end up mimicking a conventional system.
>>3651618>a reason to walk back AI. To me that's just lazy programmingThere were multiple reasons, and they probably couldn't afford to complicate their massive project with deadlines.Actually the way you talk makes me think you lack experience. We'll see when you got something to show.
>>3651611Would having multiple archtypes be doable? Could add some more variety. Pic related is something AI slop prompted with the rolled traits of Friendly & Delinquent (plus the Witch class). Better than either trait on it's own.
>>3651624If we look at Oblivion AI its basically multiple systems semi combined. You have the NPC schedules, this is fairly standard. Then you have a police system in place. Which works for and against you. If you're assaulted guards come to your aid. It's just a series of systems, there's no magic. And really that's essentially what I plan on doing. A series of systems mixed together to keep the player interested for awhile.>>3651621Well, ok then, if by definition you just declare yourself right, then I'm not going to bother.>>3651626The question is really, what is the benefit to the player to have archetypes. I'll have a closed system of like 50 npcs. I was thinking to break that 50 down into personality types essentially. Like 5% are warriors, 5 gamblers, 10 percent regular nobodies etc. It's just one idea I have. I need a system where the player can have fun killing people, and the world reacts in interesting fun ways. It'll be a challenge, and it might not happen. I might just go with Oblivion AI for the most part. Police, schedules, react to items drops.
>>3651634If you want players to acknowledge archtypes and react to them you could be really ham-fisted about it and straight up display the archtypes of characters and list what those archtypes affect.
>>3651634>I might just go with Oblivion AI for the most partReasonable goal, although it makes me wonder why you first called it lazy and had solutions ready.We'll see if you're more than just talk.
>>3651640I said giving up on an NPC buying things for whatever reason because it went extreme one time was stupid. Now, if the reason they gave up was because of deadlines and all that, fine. But don't act like it's a programming issue. It's a "this isn't important to us" issue.>>3651638Right, everything I do must enhance player experience. That's one thing Red Dead II did poorly. They have so much detail, and much of it is never seen by the player. And what is seen by the player was the god awful quest system. I will in some way make it clear that NPC's act and behave differently based on personality types. Whether I spell out each one, I'm not sure. I'm not anti that idea. Would need to think about it.
>>3651581because people consume slop instead, why would you put effort in and try to innovate?cowadooty, ass creed, souls games, final fantasy, they all release the same game over and over with a fresh coat of paint and 0 gameplay breakthroughs, and people continue to buy themyour mistake is assuming the people making videogames these days like videogames at allit's all dads with a wife and 4 kids who play maybe 2 hours a week at best and 'women' with colored hair who are trying to shove their retarded fics and failed writing into the games.
>>3651616it reminder me when a streamer played enderal and he somehow used necromancy on a child and now he had an immortal summon and because the said child had a friend who would always tag along with him, he had two immortal decoys to throw on the enemies KEK
>>3651643>It's a "this isn't important to us" issue.You're just running from an assumption to another. Not worth listening.
>>3651581Because you will end up with Hard Time. Funny? Yes. Stable? Fuck no.
>>3651649Wow that's crazy.
>>3651647Chaos is fun. At least to me. It seems like everyone who actually played Oblivion remembers the jank fondly.
>>3651581>So why don't any RPGs actually do it?Because RPGs are abstractions of adventures, not world simulations.>It would make them so much more immersive and alive and fun.No it wouldn't. Not a single RPG would benefit from this. Humans are more complex and interesting than cockroach level AI. Imagine if Kiseki was just NPCs pursuing basic survival goals like eating and sleeping instead of each one having unique handwritten stories in time sensitive locations which progress with the player.Anyways Mirthwood comes out in a TOMORROW and it's exactly what you're asking for.https://youtu.be/NoQ_Mnuv2FESo kill this God forsaken ignorant and retarded thread.
>>3651667Nta, Skyrim did it. Skyrim is known as possibly the best rpg of all time. So... ya, some games benefit from this. Thanks for the link though.
>>3651671>Skyrim is known as possibly the best rpg of all time.I actually think elder scrolls existence has more less slipped from the publics perception, you won't see it praised in popular places any more, mostly just transsexual sunken cost discord dens where modders live. Nothing special about this:https://youtu.be/PvjMevYBiOU
>>3651675>more less*more or less
>>3651671TES is insanely committed to building the world. How easy it is for other games to not bother with certain areas like "unimportant" clutter, houses, NPC schedules
>>3651680>TES is insanely committed to building the world.No it isn't lol
>>3651675This game looks pretty good. Looks like something I'd make for sure. I even thought to have some logic for cornering the market. Better hurry up and finish my game before it becomes outdated. I won't have stardew building mechanics though. Will focus more on quests.
>>3651680eh, clutter for clutter's sake doesn't do it for me. Spoons, mugs, bowls all do nothing. Putting things on the shelf doesn't help and just getting them onto the shelf takes time. No reason to drink at a tavern.The dedicated bookshelves and display cases/wall mounts were a nice improvement over Oblivion, though. Also giving some ingredients like fire salts a bowl as part of their model was nice. Trying to do that yourself was too fiddly. Oh, and pickaxes and woodcutting axes.But non-functional stuff was a bit meh.
>>3651688I kind of disagree when it comes to Elder Scrolls, I like a lived in world. But for Fallout I completely agree. I hated all the clutter in the world and I hated that I had to collect random shit all the time because in the future I’d need plastic for something. Really killed immersion and gameplay. Id probably hate it to if I had to collect every fucking spoon in TES as well.
>>3651681It's really weird that bethesda fans just make bold claims like this without backing it up. It really speaks to how effective marketing is on children if it's imprinted on them thoroughly enough to persist many years later.
>>3651634>if by definition you just declare yourself rightSo, not only you're admitting your solutions either constrain the system too much or are bested by existing approximations, you're also not creative enough to imagine that a solution might in theory not fall in either of those cases.As >>3651624 said, you talk like a nocoder.>>3651647That's at the low end of disruption, as far as unexpected interactions go.
>>3651695Wow that's crazy
>>3651697I'm not admitting that. You just added your little statement before I even responded, protecting yourself. It's obvious what you're doing, at least to me. Maybe you aren't aware of the psychological prison you've built for yourself.
>>3651688I had fun robbing houses, looking around the whole house for stuff to sell.Besides gameplay, it's good that you can go into a bar and see from the clutter that it is indeed a bar.The ayleid ruins in Oblivion could have used some clutter to give a sense that ayleids once lived there. Dwemer ruins in MW/Skyrim actually have signs of a culture.
>>3651581Because people keep demanding 4K textures, hundreds of millions of polygons per model, full voice acting, dynamic music, and a huge world that contains enough minor details to fill an entire book.
>bethesda buys a poojeet basic scripting package that applies pathing algorithms to basic schedules on an easily applied macro level, which is a worse application of 30 year old technology that works like complete shit>HOLY WOW THIS IS THE FUTURE OF VIDEO GAMES
>>3651728Who are you quoting?
>>3651729Like 5 different retards in the thread, wdym who
>>3651729Nobody anon. He's talking to nobody, with imaginary arguments. It's the only way for him to win his internet points and make his mommy proud. It's really sad to see.
>>3651728exactly. tes threads are major midwit country.
>>3651581>Obviously Todd was lyingyes, what you gonna do about it bitch boy?
>>3651588swimming competition, shooting competition, throwing stones competition, riding horses competition. all happening randomly at all times makes the world feels alive
>>3651697Rather than attempting to provoke a response with negative assumptions, it would be more reasonable dispel the original negative assumptions and let the response to that tell a more complete story.>>3651699Protecting against what? Have you considered the possibility it was a frank explanation of why the question was asked? You would help yourself not to speak in terms of consistently vague ideas.
>>3651581Look how easy it is to troll and fool LLMs, Who are infinitely more complex than whatever AI they are going to use and be small enough to run multiple concurrent instances of without performance problems.Now imagine its everywhere in every NPC and imagine how chaotic it would be and how easy would it be to ruin the gaming experience, Oblivion has to tone down their AI system heavily yet it can still do schizo shit where fights can start and half a city gets massacred.
>>3651954Reddit post.
>>3651581Just have them walk in circles. If the player follows them through a whole cycle, they stop and tell you to leave them alone, then resume their path. If you follow them again, they attack.
>>3651956I'll trust you on this evaluation, you're the Reddit expert with 100k upboats under your stretched belt.
>>3651961How stupid and misinformed do you have to be to genuinely believe anything you typed?
>>3651963the strectched belt ain't far-fetched
>>3651963I believe you know a lot about reddit.
>>3651933He's pre-emptively backing himself into a corner where he can't be proven wrong. All suggestions will be labeled as un-acceptable for whatever made up reason he comes up with. I have no desire to engage with filth like this. I'm not here to impress idiots with no intuition. He wrote "you sound like a no coder." You want to know who sounds like a no coder? Someone who uses the term no coder. And take it another step further, the way you stop an npc from buying inventory isn't programmatically hard. This conversation has nothing to do with programming but instead implementing a set of abstract rules into an environment and have it run acceptably. It's a logic problem, not a programming program. If the logic is in place, programming it easy. The challenging part of this isn't the programming, it's coming up with the rules, in normal language, that makes sense. That poster is an idiot and not worth engaging with.
>>3651822Todd is not a liar, he's a dreamer
>>3652040>t. no codez faggot
>>3652040You type like a discord mod and your shit's all retarded
>>3652040Kek
>>3651590Radiant AI is a good system. Problem is Bethesda's quest designers simply don't have the capacity or desire to use it to its full extent.
>>3652115>use it to its full extent.Any ideas that weren't already in the game?
>>3652115>Radiant AI is a good systemNo it isn't, by its very nature it leads to repetitive, deterministic, and predictable behaviors. It's literally just a batch of routines bethesda pulls from to lazily apply behaviors. It's the same thing as morrowind's dogshit dialogue system where NPCs have a universal pool of copy-pasted dialogue based on their race, class, and faction, so a designer only has to tick 3 boxes when designing a generic NPC's dialogue rather than come up with something unique. Radiant "AI" is that extended to daily routines. Like rather than have to design a NPC having to sit down and eat lunch at 2PM they just assign the "eat food" behavior at the 2PM mark and the NPC paths to a food item. This isn't a simulated world. Like look at how supply chains are dynamically generated in Warband and compare that to retards blasting jizz all over each other because NPCs awkwardly say hello to each other in Oblivion. This is absurd.
>>3652122>design a NPC having to sit down>designKekBtw I know you're bullshitting because I'm familiar with how it works. Stop being cringe, please.
>>3652122Ya, but, it's cool when NPC's talk to each other with random conversations. It made the world feel much more alive. Radiant AI built layers of dynamic situations and was amazing. It's been a decade + and it's hard to find a game with a more pleasing AI, or NPC's.
>>3652122Ah yes it's so "predictable" when a khajit begger is hungry but has no food in his inventory, So he tries to pickpocket some food and gets caught, The victim attempts to fight the khajit but a guard sees them and attacks the pickpocketing victim and it quickly spirals out of control with 5/6 casualties. Or a goblin shaman attacked another tribe across the map and dying in the process then the tribe tries their best to retrieve their staff... Radiant AI is absolute kino and anyone saying otherwise is retarded, But the problem is Bethesda games don't use randomly generated NPCs that disappear when they walk away from the players so it could have devastating effects on gameplay.
>>3652163>problem is Bethesda games don't use randomly generated NPCsYeah, the NPCs are finite. So you have ways of fucking around with NPCs, but doing so leads to an even emptier world. With generic respawning NPCs players would be more willing to mess around.
>>3652164>NPCs are finite>bandits respawn infinitelyIn any average TES game, you'll kill more simple bandits than the entire NPC population of the country.
>>3651611>murder caseIt sounds really interesting and it would be nice to have that as a quest, even nicer so if it's not scripted, but once you have 100 gamblers killed by 100 angry warriors it's gotta get tedious, just like those "infinte" quests in skyrim. Imagine not-Preston Garvey come up to you and saying, "another indebted gambler has been killed in one of your settlememts. I'll mark the location on your map"If you set it up so that it can only happen a handful of times, you might as well manually design the quests
>>3652167Yeah, I'm separating hostile NPCs to a different group.It would be good to have infinite unhostile NPCs living in cities, having their own house and belongings, going about their lives interacting with others.If that NPC ends up dead, after a certain period, a different NPC is spawned to "fill the void"
>>3652169I refuse to have infinite quests. When it comes to gamblers getting in debt and getting killed, that's just something going on in the background. People getting stabbed, killed, for whatever. I wasn't even thinking that would be a quest. It more just general world building. Like someone mentioned the Khajit being hungry, no money, so they steal. This sets off a chain of events. But it's just something that happens. That's what I would aim for. For quests I plan on writing actual quests. And when the game is over, it's over. Infinite quests have never been effective. Imagine all the usual D and D character stuck in a town. What are fun ways they might interact. Going into debt, doing drugs, selling to each other, fighting for real-estate, maybe playing games. I'm trying to think out ways to make this as dynamic as it can be. I think one big feature would be, balancing the power between factions. Who should come out on top, who gets expelled from the town. So every player can kinda build the world they want to see. And it could come from something simple like setting out poisoned food and starting a riot.
>>3652163>Ah yes it's so "predictable" whenYeah, you mouth breathing drone, it absolutely is. What kind of response did you expect here? This is absolute garbage and you should take your grifting to reddit. The situation with the beggar you described is also a numeric value similar to faction and its no different than adjusting the hostility of an NPC in any other game. And it doesn't "spiral out of control", this is a bug because bethesda lazily defined the hostility levels wrong. Holy hell you're stupid.
>>3652207NTA, but your posts are trash and you're stupid. You put nothing interesting forward. Your a waste of fucking time. You're a fucking loser.
>>3652207>griftingYou keep using that word. I do not think that it means what you think it does.
>>3652211>NTAYou're a shameless grifter that can't do anything but puke disinfo and try to make everyone as ignorant as you are. Your kind can never exist alongside the truth and that makes you an agent of evil.
>>3652207>situation with the beggar is a numeric value similar to faction>defined the hostility levels wrongI'm impressed by the numerical values of your nonsense levels
>>3652214>grifter>disinfoLol, lmao. How embarrassing.
>>3652215The interaction with the beggar is due to NPCs having hostilities adjusted to punish stealing. It's no difference than NPCs in World of Warcraft killing hostile wildlife that randomly wanders too close to a town, except here Bethesda has defined reactions to violence wrong so now NPCs are attacking or assisting guards who are violent. The only part of this interaction that's even radiant AI is the stealing bit, the rest is the AI executing the same basic response it would to a player, which is unsurprisingly an inappropriate and broken reaction.
>>3652169You could probably get a lot out of radiant murder investigations.>multiple methods: 1 chosen at random>selection of evidence options: 1 or 2 chosen at random depending on crime>chance a piece of evidence is false, so you need to investigate properly and not just search the usual spotsIt would rarely be the same.
>>3652169The real version of this is already in stalker with a-life and it works nothing like radiant ai. (Because radiant ai isn't capable of truly dynamic interactions)
>>3651581>These NPCs are not scripted. We give them general goals and they figure out on their own how to accomplish them.>Obviously Todd was lying about how complex the radiant AI was in Oblivion, but it's been 20 years.I replayed Oblivion last year for the first time since it came out, and I was greatly amused, while poking around in the construction kit, to find unique instances of stuff tagged _E3Demo and so on
>>3652220Since you're too much of a sperg to understand: I know you're full of shit. Digging further doesn't help you.Move on and try your bullshit on someone else.
>>3652225>I know you're full of shitYou'd have to be legitimately retarded to believe something that is so obviously wrong when this is openly available data made to be utilized by people dumb enough to work at bethesda, so even a monkey could work with it. But apparently not you.
>>3652223What does stalker do that Oblivion doesn't?
>>3652227>What does stalker do that Oblivion doesn't?Spawn bandits with MP5s every time you walk through the garbage
>>3652226>apparently not youAnd obviously you. So don't be so uppity.
>>3652207Nigger
>>3652227The X-ray engine uses GSC Game World's proprietary A-Life artificial intelligence engine. A-Life supports more than 1,000 characters inhabiting the Zone. These characters are non-scripted, meaning that AI life can be developed even when not in contact with the player.The NPCs have a full life cycle (task accomplishment, combat, rest, feeding, and sleep) and the same applies to the many monsters living in the Zone (hunting, attacking Stalkers and other monsters, resting, eating, sleeping). These monsters migrate in large groups. The non-scripted nature of the characters means that there are an unlimited number of random quests. For instance, rescuing Stalkers from danger, destroying Stalker renegades, protecting or attacking Stalker camps, or searching for treasure. The AI characters travel around the entire zone as they see fit.Numerous tactics can be employed to complete the game, such as rushing or using stealth and sniping. The NPCs will react in a different way to each of them. S.T.A.L.K.E.R.'s NPCs plan ahead by "Goal-Oriented Action Planning" to achieve this.
>>3652235Right, so to replicate this I should come up with an AI that dynamically creates situations that allow for quest like moments. Saving someone, robbing someone, makes sense. Thanks.
>>3652236Radiant AI doesn't have enough delineations and parameters to generate things like this. The cells aren't even set up to work together correctly.
>>3652227Oblivion rarely sets up situations where opposing NPCs/factions/creatures come into contact. Rare exceptions are those imperial guards fighting an enemy on the road.Meanwhile Stalker has groups of enemies and factions moving about constantly, so conflict occurs naturally.
>>3652235I just replayed Stalker within the last year and this is complete rubbish. It spawns groups of enemies either on loading a map or on a timer and then you beat the game by shooting enemies. The final section of the game is pure combat.
>>3652242>then you beat the game by shooting enemiesRather than just pathing directly at you like a game from 1980 (or a modern bethesda game) stalker AI with try to flank, pincer, use grenades to flush you out of cover, or even use suppressive fire. They'll even charge you down if theyre close enough range to hear you reload. Like imagine a bethesda enemy trying to keep you in place while back up tried to sneak behind you. Those games can even figure out how to get enemies to react to stealth archery appropriately. The way A-life is set up is cascading parameters. Like if you kill a group of bandits and one escapes, then it may join up with another group of bandits rather than wander around by itself. They have complex ways to complete their nonlinear objectives, which are also randomly generated and dynamic.
>>3652247>Those games can even figure*cant
>>3651581>So why don't any RPGs actually do it?It kinda requires a compelling open world sandbox, and those aren't common.
>>3652255It's almost like a "sandbox" is not a necessary or desirable feature of rpgs.
>>3652257It definitely is desirable, but hard to develop.
>>3652258>It definitely is desirableNo it isn't and it's not a specific feature of rpgs. There's nothing appealing about walking to generic unplanned locations.
>>3652259Okay.But open world sandboxes in RPGs is something people want.
>>3652260>something people want.The people that want that don't like or play rpgs, they like bethesda games, which are generic slop design to technically be every genre while not really belonging to any of them. I'm sure if Todd could have gotten away with labeling skyrim as a racing game because you pilot a horse around then he would have.
>>3652259Yes there is. This isn't 1998 fuck face, this has been settled.
>>3652263Very interesting
>>3652266People like BG3's anchor point narrative design more than Bethesda's sandbox design. It has indeed been settled.
>>3652270>narrative design>sandbox designGuys.. imagine if someone managed to.. have both of these desirable elements... in the same game.. at the same time...
>>3652270lol, lmfao even.
>>3652272They are at odds with each other because BG3 is designed to have you progress through the world with the goal of getting to the next anchor point as you see fit, whereas Morrowinds/Oblivion/Skyrims design is dicking around in a sandbox clearing bandit camps. Both are pulling from Ultima's open world design, but only BG3 actually understands it.
>>3652286>they are at odds>because BG3 this and TES thatOkay
>>3652290Don't make shitty threads all day if you aren't capable of holding a discussion. Just stay quiet.
>>3652247>>3652235>>3652223This is chatgpt meme horseshit born from people who have no idea how cut down and simple the final version of A-life is.>The NPCs have a full life cycle They don't, nor do they perform suppressive fire, pincer attacks or anything more advanced than flanking. sometimes they may choose to "flank" you by circling the entire map which is good enough to trick anons into making them think it's "advanced"Shoutouts to Oblivion Lost Remake 3.0 for trying to restore A-life to it's full potentional even if it's a complete clusterfuck. It currently has the most advanced AI of any mod out there.
>>3652294>They don't, nor do they perform suppressive fire, pincer attacks or anything more advanced than flankingYes they do lol, in CoP they'll even do it to other NPCs and you can watch them do it.
>>3652295>Yes they do lolThey don't there's no script for it. they fire at last seen location of enemy to give illusion of supressive fire to keep players from wiggle-peaking. Furthermore allies do not cooperate with each other in any form inside combat. outside of combat they can heal downed buddies but iirc that's it.
>>3652293Try giving your arguments some thought before posting.
>>3652299>they fire at last seen location of enemy to give illusion of supressive fire to keep players from wiggle-peaking>suppressive fire is not suppressive fire
>>3652294>Oblivion Lost Remake 3.0 for trying to restore A-life to it's full potentionalI wasn't aware of this. If you've played it, what is it like? Is it impactful in gameplay, and is it fun to play against?Maybe I'll give it a go when it's time to replay Stalker.
>>3652299You're confusing AI behavior with smart terrain. If you fire and duck behind cover the first NPC will suppress then the following NPCs will either chuck a grenade or suppress or even just hide. That's absolutely how the game works.
>>3652307It's kind of bad and adds a bunch of broken dumb shit to the game. It's not real stalker, anomaly and it's forks are superior.
>>3652302>suppressive fire is magdumping wall until reload then walking straight forwards/sideways to "flank"Arma does suppressive fire as the AI coordinates with the squad. Stalker does not.
>>36523073.0 is a buggy mess and I believe it's still machine translated. OL is not stalker though, it's a remaining of stalker and its sort of just like quirky fallout shit.
>>3652311I don't suppose you can get the AI enhancement as an independent mod?
>>3652314>remaining*re-imagining
>>3652315The AI isn't what you think it is. He's retarded. There are plenty of mods that change NPC behavior. Autumn Aurora is a good one. GAMMA is best.
>>3652320Gamma seems to be some modpack with crafting shit, no mention of enemy behavior
>>3652294AMK-based mods are a better showcase for A-Life, Oblivion Lost-based mods usually go for more of the horror type atmosphere so they'll have a relatively small number of stalkers in the zone and more mutants
>>3652307It's mostly in the background but can lead to some interesting moments. NPCs are assigned goals like reach the cnpp/get artifact/kill player etc. They buy/sell at shops and so on. So on occasion you'll see 10 stalkers all run into you as you're trading or get the occasional pda message about someone leaving the zone. Biggest affect in gameplay will be those assigned to find the same documents you're looking for to complete the game however you can pay someone to fetch them for you.
>>3652322Gamma is just rebalancing and some script changes to make a bunch of anomaly addons work with eachother.
>>3652324Oh okay. Sounds funs, but I'll probably play vanilla.Last time I played with a Gunslinger mod, I wonder if it has been completed by now?
>>3651581Because it just makes them act like comical Sims entities, same reason stealth games always have an element of slapstick
>>3651581 AI gigabrains get paid way more to work at Nvidia etc than to create amazing games.
>>3651646
>>3652178>for world building, not questsOh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, that makes more sense.>And it could come from something simple like setting out poisoned food and starting a riotThis sounds really good, but I still can't help but think that manually designing something like that would end up way nicer than by using A.I. So, for sure, killing a few store owners might ruin the economy of a town, which in turn could end up messing shipments to a faction which in turn would come to be at a disadvantage within a conflict. But to have something that meaningful be done by AI rather than some scripted event to me seems more lazy than innovative.So yeah, I'd like to come back to a town and see it burned to the ground, but only because some khajiit lost his house at poker off-screen? And then, what, you AI generate dialogue that explains what happened? I'd rather something this grand was planned, even if it might lead to retarded, tedious shit like the scripted killing every time you enter Markath for the first time
>>3652235>>3652235Right, so this is different from Bethesda's random encounters, how?Animals hunt and bandits attack either you or other NPCs and Stormcloaks fight Legionnaires just the same. The grievance is that in Skyrim they're scripted events? What do I care?
>>3653326To continue, in response to >>3652247While I wouldn't want to defend Bethesda's AI when it comes to combat, much less stealth archery, the examples you've given and comparisons you've made are fallacious. You have guys with shields charging at you while guys with magic attack you from a side and guys with bows shoot from afar, you've just arbitrarily decided to say Stalker is more sophisticated. You also have bandits who have a chance to flee from combat, which often draws aggro from other enemies.
>>3653320Your concerns are valid. I would say that my setting makes it more suitable to chaos than normal. Shop keepers would be replaced if murdered. But ya, I'd try to in some way convey why something kicks off. As far as showing Dialog to the player I'm not totally against it, I liked that a lot playing oblivion. But I don't know if I'd want dynamic auto generated messages annoying the player. I don't think the battles between faction A and Faction B will be super important. It'll be fun to engage in, and witness. But not super game changing. Also big battles randomly occurring is just one thing. Factions working together is one, interactions between town guards and factions when battles kick off, and then ya, scripted events that kick off once in awhile. Hopefully I can make a many layered system. Which is just background for the quests.
>>3653334NTA but I've never seen this Oblivion NPC's work together. If someone has a bow, and someone has a sword, that's hardly "AI Teamwork". That's just a dude with a sword and a dude with a bow. His examples were flanking, pincer attacks, using grenades to force movement. I haven't played Stalker but he'd be correct that bethesda has none of that. Not in any Bethesda game I ever played anyway. It's individual units acting as individuals. If two of them work together that's an accident. Or the people who put the characters together armed them in such a way there's a bit of teamwork going on naturally. I've never seen anything with Bethesda combat to show really any form of intelligence. Other than finding the player and killing them.
Oblivion in general was a rushed piece of shit, even with the system they had they could've done a lot more, they just ran out of time or didn't care enough. Something like say the Counts traveling around having dinner at each other's castles every so often or Fighters Guild NPCs going out and killing some goblins in the woods or some shit could've been done, they just didn't because it would've taken time and they were going to release in the 360's launch window goddamn it.
>>3653365And I should say there WAS stuff like this in the game, but not nearly enough for the player to notice, and nothing to actually make it affect gameplay, except like Legionnaires patrolling the roads. On the Counts example I gave, something like that would literally lower the amount of guards in town/in castles so the player would have a good opportunity to rob them, or like the Count's personal horse is stabled where it's easier to steal it or something. The game also had no dialogue conditions for NPC schedules, so if you happen to find that NPC who cheats on his wife in his mistress's house, he says nothing at all relevant to that, so no one even knows that's what's happening.
>>3653367Location dependent dialog choices, now that's a good idea.
This kind of system would not mesh with story-driven game. You'd need to structure the entire game around emergent situations and generic NPCs and can take over each others' roles situationally, probably closer to roguelike or strategy game than a conventional RPG with plot.
>>3653371Ya well, fuck story driven games.
>>3653354I've only played through Oblivion once or twice and don't have much good to say about it. When people talk about NPCs travelling, the only worthwhile example coming to mind is the Dark Brotherhood dunmer, which was obviously scripted.In Skyrim combat however, there's many examples of teamwork in combat. I've just started a character and purposefully made him weak, and fighting skeletons I've noticed that there's always a guy with a shield sitting in front of me doing nothing but blocking, while another one casts the dot frost spell. The shield guy only attacks when I switch targets to focus on the spell caster. That you can easily bash ar the shield of the tank with your sword handle to take him down, or that you very quickly get powers that help you deal with such issues (fus ro dah the shield guy) is another topic, and while maybe it's not as sophisticated or maybe even intentional as what the other anon says of STALKER, the tactics are still there.
>>3653383I don't actually even care. The AI that sets Elder Scrolls apart is the non combat AI. At this point they've stopped innovating so it's starting to seem stale. NPC schedules really aren't that impressive anymore. They've kind of walked back some AI intelligence if anything. Other games are adding AI logic like Red Dead II experimented a bit. So really the question is, what can they do going forward to stand out.
>>3653386>NPC schedules really aren't that impressive anymore. They've kind of walked back some AI intelligence if anythingThere isn't room for big innovation, there's only things they can keep adding to it.In Skyrim they did add reactivity and interactions: NPCs react to PC actions like shouting, or they fight over items that player dropped. There's also generic NPCs causing scenes, like thieves on the run from guards in cities, drunken brawls in taverns, or hired thugs coming after the player character.Just have those things in TES VI and they're golden.
>>3653390None of that made it into Starfield, so it doesn't seem likely it will be in the next TES.
>>3653386>The AI that sets Elder Scrolls apart is the non combat AIHow lol
>>3653392I'm not here to explain video game history to you.>>3653390I don't see why there's not room for innovation. It just takes a good idea. The things you mentioned were good ideas. Just not massive ideas. Skyrim was in many ways the peak of Bethesda. Things have regressed since this. But I mean I overall agree with you.
>>3653398>I'm not here to explain video game history to you.Good, don't explain yourself to anyone ever, you shouldn't taint people with your Bethtard brainrot.
>>3653403Wow, that's crazy.
>>3653403>t. mad
>>3653405More pure joy at a Bethtard not ranting on about the exquisite design of Todd's last digital bowel movement. Muhimmurshunfags are the derpest of the derps and a blight upon the genre. What's wrong with being mad though? You kids and your addiction to irony have made you afraid of sincere expressions of emotion, as if being affected is a loss.
>>3653407You cowards always talk shit, but then never put an example forward of a better game. A better system. You're boring. You're stupid. You think trolling to troll is a victory. It's just boring. "haha I got a response, I win!" Alright, bro, have fun with that.
>>3653386What can I say, you brought up team tactics. Or, at any rate, the other anon.Regarding the non combat AI, and I'm not backtracking, it's the first time I make a point about it, I could give a fuck- other than the bare minnimum. Other anons keep talking about how innovative RDR2 is with regards to that, and it is specifically that they've spent so many resources on that why the game is a movie slash cowboy sim and barely an actual game. It's fine that workers actually hammer nails into the train tracks, but what fucking autist prefers watching digital chinks build railroads, rather than playing an engaging quest?When you drop trash in the city and NPCs fetch it back to you, it elicits a brief "neat" from you, then you move on. It's like a superficial easter egg (to not use the word reddit).What I'd like to see in an RPG is actual economy, trades between agricultural and industrial cities, thar you could tamper with and have the world react to it. But I think you'll agree such a mechanic would be too grand not to center an entire game around it.
>>3653398>I don't see why there's not room for innovation. It just takes a good idea. The things you mentioned were good ideas. Just not massive ideas.Things I mentioned were incremental improvements, that existed in some form in previous games.Oblivion had very limited followers: Skyrim expanded on that. More followers available, you could equip them, order them to do stuff, recruit them for a faction. In FO4 followers have more character, you recruit settlers and set them on a job.Morrowind's NPCs already reacted to stuff like low health or disease, later games expanded on that, so on and so on.I can be impressed with new NPC features, but expecting something that could be considered innovative/groundbreaking would be foolish, and setting yourself up for disappointment.Also, if you have some innovative ideas, tell me so I can make it into a mod.
>>3653425Ya but you're still wrong, just to be clear, there are no tactics in Elder Scrolls from the AI that make any sense. There's no "guy holding a shield while someone shoots arrows." You're literally just making that up.
>>3653426Why would you make a mod. The mod community is the biggest group of fucking babies and trannies on the planet. Just make a game.
>>3653430Because mods can be made in an afternoon.
>>3653409I'm not trolling, "bro", I'm responding to a retard who sits on a high horse made of excrement and thinks they are superior for it. Of course you aren't going to like what I like, what you value is valueless to me and vice versa. I like mechanics, not flavour, not feelings, not immersion. I like RPGs, not roleplaying.
>>3653433If you're not trolling then you're a retard who is beneath me. I'd very much enjoy if you fucking died. I'd rather read of your death in the paper than your opinion on video games. Why should I fucking care what you like you dumb fucking faggot, I'm not your mommy. What kind of faggot goes up to a stranger and starts ranting about THEY PERSONALLY like you fucking loser.
>>3653434Yes, you are a manchild with emotional problems and an inferiority complex, I got that from your responses to other anons, no need to beat it into the ground like this. Get off the internet, kid.
>>3653398>>3653386And to answer how they could innovate and address your criteria, I'd say you don't do it by having the guards have a dialogue trigger for when you sprint rather than walk around them. You do it by coming up with fun quest and mechanics and engaging factions and characters.Having, for example, the faction system of Morrowind (made a bit more complex and restrictive, even) in a game as accessible, gameplay wise, as Skyrim, keeping everything else the same, would be enough to make one of the greatest RPGs>>3653428This is the type of autism I'm referring to. What do I care if the bandit in Skyrim runs and draws the aggro of a necromancer, or if he's coded to magically flee towards another bandit camp that helps him, like in stalker?Similarly, I don't care if skeletons and draugr are coded to tank with shields and flank with magic. If the tank is coded to keep the shield up when I face him and attack when I face another direction, it has the same effect on me.It's like playing an mmo and saying "well, the tank didn't intend to tank the boss, it's just that his abilities generate threat"
>>3653437Weren't you the fag that just justified the emotion of anger. And now you're mad that I'm emotional? You can't even write three posts without contradicting yourself you fucking moron. You think it makes you sound clever to not be emotional in this post, and in the other you justify it. The sign of a retard. You see this with low IQ students writing essays. They'll argue one thing in one paragraph and then argue against it in another. Some, like you, can't even make it a few sentences without contradicting yourself.
>>3653438>Having, for example, the faction system of Morrowind (made a bit more complex and restrictive, even) in a game as accessible, gameplay wise, as Skyrim, keeping everything else the same, would be enough to make one of the greatest RPGsI haven't played Morrowind but my entire game is pretty much based on this.>>What do I care if the bandit in Skyrim runs and draws the aggro of a necromancer, or if he's coded to magically flee towards another bandit camp that helps him, like in stalker?Well, it matters less for a game like Oblivion where it's like, 1 v 1,2,3, MAYBE 4. But in general I'm not sure why you'd not want some sort of tactics. Like a series of builds, aggressive, neutral, defensive, to spice things up.And if you're the poster talking about Read Dead Nails being driven in being stupid, I agree. I think that game was fairly schizo with a lot of mechanics being a total waste. It did a few things right though. Being able to pick fights with npc's, npc's being out and about in the wilderness, the camp system was immersive. But ya, overall from a mechanic stand point it was mostly not that well put together.
Because it can't actually work. The Agent (the player) is always going to be an unknown factor for the closed system. The system can infer the boundaries of the Agent's actions within the system but it can't accurately approximate the actions within those boundaries.
>>3653442Emotional problems isn't mere passion, it's about an inability to control yourself in the face of anyone questioning you. Ranting about how you wish someone was dead because someone called you a retard for liking a video game isn't a proportionate response. I know you midwits have trouble with "subtle" nuances like these though. See, again, this post being well written and almost beyond your English skills will cause your inferiority complex to flare as you desperately look for some minuscule way you can assume dominance over the other. This is why you hide within virtual worlds and desire immersion above all else, it's the only place you are safe from the mirror.
>>3653452Wow, that's crazy.
>>3653453No, no it's not. It's sad.
>>3653449It's funny to me. Alexander went from Greece, to India. Fighting many battles in between, against the steppe nomads, against the super powers of the day, against his peoples age old enemies, against classical Greek militaries. And there are still people like you who are like "nah, this simple thing, can't be done. Too complex. Impossible, cause reasons." Yes it can be done. It's just a question to what level, how to make it fun, meaningful.
>>3653456Little mommas boy needs the last word. You can't handle being ignored. Predictable. Pathetic. And most of all, boring."Wah wah wah I like rpgs NOT ROLE PLAY listen to me! Listen to me! wah wah wah." Fucking loser.
>>3653459You say I need the last word and yet you can't help but respond with extremely childish insults. Do these cut deep in your native tongue? To me they are laughable. C'mon, man, show some creativity here, this isn't a playground. Or, just stop replying.
>>3651581Whenever I think about good combat AI, I always think about FEAR.Whether it was actually good or just an illusion, the way the enemy soldiers seemed to talk to each other really helped sell it.
>>3653458You end up with goat simulator instead of an rpg, it simply can't be done with any level of reasonableness to create what an rpg is.
>>3653466Have you seen the games talked about in this thread? These people aren't interested in RPGs at all.
>>3653463You've shown yourself to be a retard on many levels.1. Stupid insults like Bethtard.2. Contradicting yourself on your views of emotion.3. Childishly inserting yourself into conversations you yourself admit you're not interested in.4. You write like a fag. "Show some creativity!" Why. Why would I do that. I literally would be happy if you posted a webm of you blowing your brains out. I'm not here to have fun with you. It again shows your mommas boy complex where you think the world owes you attention or that you matter.I will no longer respond. I said what needed to be said.
>>3653447>i haven't played morrowindYou really should>But in general I'm not sure why you'd not want some sort of tactics.But I've said that they do exist, it's just that they're not coded in the way you like. Tanks tank, but, what, because they aren't explicitly coded to protect the spellcasters, you don't like it?I also don't know why you keep bringing Oblivion up, I conceded that it's shit.I am the rdr2 complainer and I'll go even further and say that even the gameplay oriented immersive gimmicks they employ damage the game. Things like chasing a thief down for 5 minutes to tie him up (sometimes he leads you to a trap- more engaging and, of course, scripted) are interesting for about 15 seconds.Brawls, hunters in the wilderness, random encounters, were all in Skyrim. Between you and me, when I saw a hunter camp I didn't think "Oh, how immersive". I thought "here's another hide armor wearing bosmer chasing elk. Your tricks don't work on me." But that's another conversation.I think even camping exists in one of the 15 re-releases of Skyrim. Fishing, too
>>3653467I haven't read the thread, just assumed you queers were talking about rpgs in /vrpg/.I accept that that was my error.
>>3653466Well if you say so. I guess it must be true. Another arrested development nobody.
>>3653473You appear to be a bot.
>>3653426>recruit them for a factionPardon? Do you mean within the Civil War? I haven't played through that
>>36534691. You are a Bethtard. Fact.2. This never happened, you simply don't understand nuance.3. Public space and I was responding to your rude post towards another anon.4. Projection.>I will no longer respond.I accept your concession, now go practice English.
>>3653470By camp system I mean just being around your gang. I thought it was an immersive system. Not saying that sort of loop never existed elsewhere, but with the day night cycle, various times we moved together, you really got to know people and it helped tell a good story. As opposed to say Elder Scrolls where nothing really grounds you in the world. I'm not saying every game needs it, just saying I thought it stood out as good in RDR2.As far as tactics, again, I've just never noticed any. You claim they exist, I've never seen it. Every character acts like every other character. Like magic dudes use magic, sword guys attack, what tactics exist? None
>>3653474You appear to be a retard.
>>3653472The OP has a bad picture of Oblivion, that should've clued you in. Do better.
>>3653479I made 2 posts ITT and both replies have been nonsense about nothing with no understanding of the context of the post>>3653482Thats why I assumed you guys were talking about radiant AI. I accept that was my failing.
>>3653484Radiant AI has nothing to do with RPGs, it's a gimmick used for marketing.
>>3653484You made claims with no supporting statements. Sign of arrested development. Do I need to spell everything out, I already said "If you say so" that should have clued you that we need more just a conclusive statement. It's just a goat simulator. WHY.
>>3653485So are you just a retard or what? What is the gimmick I'm missing here?
>>3653477If you want me to record a 1v3 with draugr, where 1 tanks, 1 casts frost, 1 shoots arrows to show their different behaviors, I will.I see what you mean by camp. I guess I'd compare it to BG3, where it's anything but immersive. Half the time you go to camp, you haven't progressed enough, or in the right direction, to trigger any new dialogue. The other half, you might have breezed through the game too quickly and skipped over dialogue because another trigger takes priority. I think it's anythinh but immersive, you almost have to metagame it.But I see your point, yeah
>>3653447>But in general I'm not sure why you'd not want some sort of tactics. Like a series of builds, aggressive, neutral, defensive, to spice things up.Well you could look at vampires in Oblivion. A variety of classes, abilities, and corresponding behavior. Skyrim improved on stealth enemies with Falmer.Problem is that ideas on paper don't necessarily translate to gameplay.For example, I had a mod that made enemies more likely to flee, because someone apparently thought it would be interesting/immersive. It was annoying. I'm happy with fleeing being limited to Fear/Turn Undead spells and nonhostile enemies.
>>3653486Are you a bot?
>>3653487yes he's a retard.>>3653489I don't really see how this is tactics. This is just three enemies attacking you.>>Problem is that ideas on paper don't necessarily translate to gameplay.Worked great in Starcraft. It's pretty simple.
>>3653487Your problem is that you aren't catching on that I'm mocking this thread and people who think Radiant AI is impressive.
>>3653493You might just be really bad at what you are trying to do then.
>>3653494No, it's a fairly blatant skill issue on your part from your first response. Tired?
>>3653475You can have followers join the Blades. Apparently they stay at the headquarters, and you can run into them later around the eorld as random encounters, like you sometimes come across the Companions members.It's one example of features they've already dabbled in.
>>3653496No you are just really bad at this. So bad I thought you were a malfunctioning chatbot lol.
>>3653500Now you're having trouble telling posters apart, huh? Get some sleep.
>>3653501haha that's hilarious! "Get some sleep" oh man anon you trolled him well!
>>3653501>passive aggressivenesshe's got you pegged.
>>3653492The tanks only attack when you switch targets (in fairness, probably coded to only attack when you look away). That's a tactic
>>3653522I guess I never noticed.
>>3653497I haven't bothered with blades or companions either. That's neat.I assume it's only mercenaries you hire though, not ones of consequence?
>>3653506Jokes aren't trolling.>>3653510Nobody pegs me.
>>3653567Hahaha “nobody pegs me!” You’re killingMe! Great post!
Bethestard replies are so formulaic and repetitive its honestly like talking to a oblivion npc. Which makes me wonder if liking bethesda games is a genuine mental disability. Like maybe this is an accurate representation of how real life background NPCs live and they find it relatable.
>>3653570Thanks, I'll be here all night. Remember to tip your waitress.
>>3653575Ya! It's mental disability! Hahah fucking funny man. That's great. Mental disability. haha, where do you come up with this!
>>3653575The vast disparities in human intelligence are shocking indeed and the foundation of contemporary life is leveraging those differences. The Information Age.
>>3653579Wow that’s crazy.
>>3653580
>>3653587Different intelligences haha. Am I right?
>>3653588Right about what? Bethesda making good games? Nope.
>>3653593Ohhh sick burn haha. They don’t make good games, they make BAD GAMES. AYYYEEEEOOOOOOOO
>>3653594Yup.
>>3653601Great post. Fucking loser.
>>3653525>I assume it's only mercenaries you hire though, not ones of consequence?I don't know if there's any rules, iirc I made a Blade from one of those followers you get from doing a quest for them. I'd guess you can't make a Companion into a Blade.
>>3653607k
the oblivion ai is still better then skyrims and any game that's come after
>>3652299>They don't do suppressive fire>They just shoot at your last known location to keep you suppressed behind cover>They don't flank you>They just circle wide around you while someone else isn't doing the suppressive fire I described (that they don't do)
>>3651581>immersive You don't want that man. Why do you think you still play old ass games? It's because they require your imagination to fill in blanks and never makes you think it's not a game; a thing of entertainment
>>3655484These are not mutually exclusive
>>3655484>You don't want that man.>just use your imagination broNo, man. NPCs doing shit would actually offer roleplay/gameplay scenarios, unlike just imagining things.
>>3657363>I wasted my life memorizing the daily schedule of every inhabitant in Cyrodiil Just get a job lmao
>>3657389>memorizing the daily schedule of every inhabitantWhy, what even makes you think that
>>3657413There seems to be like 4 mentally ill anons pathologically autistic and unable to comprehend why people enjoy NPC's who are interactable. Best to just ignore them.
>>3657417Oh okay. Still, what a bizarre line of thinking even for a troll
>>3651581Because it would require cohesive design from everyone in the studio to make it worthwhile, and probably wouldn't really satisfy what most people want from their games. It's vaguely interesting that some characters go on long trips every month, but it's not interesting that you can't ask anyone where they are and get some useful answer, or that people seem to have no response at all to someone dying on the road and just disappearing(even if they're nobility). If bandits go off from their camp, you have no real way to track them down, if an npc pickpocket gets caught, they don't go to jail, the guards just kill them then and there. It's so halfbaked in oblivion it can't really do anything all that interesting (the most interesting interactions are bugs, like remulus bruiant killing his wife and dogs), and getting more interesting interactions that you can't really perceive or interact with yourself isn't worth it.
The NPCs are still dependent on developers writing for the characters, a dynamic world would require for example, every member of the faction being able to function in every position to replace their superiors should they be bumped off.Until generative AI can truly take over, the only way to do it is to have NPCs with zero personality, communicating with generic text. I guess Morrowind was kinda like that already, but I'm not sure the world is ready for another one.
>>3651581This platformer did exactly that and proved all the faggots ITT spitting "hurr durr it won't be fun", hurr durr it's not necessary", "hurr durr it's hard/impossible" to be coping retards. it is possible and it improves games drastically. If a platformer was improved by NPCs having their own goals and decisions, then RPGs will be drastically superior with it.
>>3659803Based.
