"Pillars of Eternity was chock-full of writing styles which experienced writers tend to advise against," he said, his nose twitching. He glances to the left, then the right, then up, then down. You notice one of his sleeves is a slightly different shade to the other. "In fact, you could say that the writing of Pillars 1 was bloated, and constantly interrupted the flow of -" he paused, yawning loudly and scratching his backside with a lazy pawing motion - "dialogue. Like people don't need to know - " time seems to slow, and you feel that once upon a time in another life, this man was a farmer "- a bunch of useless details to get an understanding of who a person is. Where you meet a person and how they speak can communicate it with good writing." He said, wearing a rag-tag tunic, frayed pants, and with a slightly unkempt beard, hinting that he was some sort of peasant.
>>3669792Lol good postI was thinking about POE recently and actually wanted to replay it. I don't hate the first one at all.But the writing is so shit and Josh Sőÿèř is such a fun-police cuck, and he's good at his job too. He really made sure there's no way to do anything fun, eccentric and god forbid unbalanced in terms of gameplay.He prioritized balance over fun, which RPG devs should never do. It's still an okay game tho, but I love to powergame so it's an issue for me. (I have 150 hours)
>BALANCEZOOOOKAAAAFor example, enemies don't drop EXP upon death if you kill too many of them, so that you can be railroaded into a "proper" level / exp amount that devs intended and not a smidge bit more. This is made so that casuals dont get softlocked too, pathetic.You can't even powergame exp gain by manipulating party size. Again, streamlined pathetic game design. The game does have some redeeming qualities. I have played it a lot after all. But i still so fucking pissed at Cuckyer nevertheless.
I have over 40 hours in PoE and the only character I can remember is Durance. The game is just word vomit. No person, real or made up speaks like that. Couple that with the backer dialogue and the lack of an in game wiki and you have a story recipe for mediocrity. The game constantly throws at you made up verbs and nouns without explaining, and you have no idea what's going on.Then you have the combat, which attempts to solve every issue RPGs have, and ends up making everything feel worse. Attribute system is unintuitive. Buffing outside of combat isn't allowed so you just end up chaining fights just to keep your buffs.The game just feels hollow compared to DOS, DOSII, Pathfinder I & II, or BG3. I think at the time of the crowdfunding, people were just so hungry for any CRPG. It had been so long since we had a good one. But now we've seen a resurgence, and for me PoE falls at the bottom of that list.
>>3669812Wanted to replay both games as well. If you skip all dialogue, it might be almost enjoyable.
>>3669816I like some of the dialogue, with some of the characters. So I wont be skipping all of it when I replay POE1 one of these days.
Perhaps the die was cast when Sawyer vetoed the idea of making anything at all innovative or original; he made sure the game would never be mistaken for a work of art that meant anything to anybody, just ridiculously profitable nostalgia pandering to ageing Baldur's Gate fans. Pillars of Eternity might be anti-casual(or not), but it’s certainly the anti-Divinity series in its refusal of spontaneity, fun and excitement.>a-at least the writing was good though"No!"The writing is dreadful; the narrative was terrible. As I played, I noticed that every time I engaged in dialogue with an NPC the game presented me with a Wiki-page style infodump instead of anything resembling actual human conversation.I began marking on the back of an envelope every time this was repeated. I stopped only after I had marked the envelope several dozen times. I was incredulous. Sawyer's mind is so governed by obsession with pointless minutiae of the lore that he has no other style of writing.Later I read a lavish, loving review of Pillars of Eternity by the same David Gaider. He wrote something to the effect of, "If these kiddies are playing Obsidian games at 17 or 18, then when they get older they will go on to enjoy Dragon Age II." And he was quite right. He was not being ironic. When you play "Pillars of Eternity" you are, in fact, trained to shill for Bioware.
>>3669834>"pandering to ageing Baldur's Gate fans">kickstarter game sold as going back to baldurs gate as a spiritual successorYes, I'm sure not making it for the people that backed your project based on a specific premise would've been a very intelligent move.False advertisement or even swindling is what that would've been called.>but it’s certainly the anti-Divinity series in its refusal of spontaneity, fun and excitement.Suggesting Dvinity is fun and exciting is an ironic statement. It's just as "spontaneous, fun and exciting" as a baby shitting itself.>When you play "Pillars of Eternity" you are, in fact, trained to shill for Bioware.And this is when you outed yourself as having brainrot. Extreme delusion.
>>3669841Yeah, that was a total schizopost
>>3669841>>3669848Such cute little newfags.
>>3669854You are avatarfagging you cunt. If jannies ever did their jobs properly instead of jacking off to jrpg porn threads, you wouldn't even be posting, you'd just get banned.None of that word salad you said had any meaning. Ironically, thats what you are criticising POE for. Fucking codex midwits.
>>3669863Calm down. It's okay.
>>3669792>>3669812>>3669813>>3669815how much of these posts are samefaging?get a life you fucking cuckdexer, PoE are good games with great userscores and good played-to-finished ratios
It's fair to criticize PoE on a number of things, but the hate it gets on this entire website is completely overblown.
>>3669875Small men grasp for the reassurance of consensus and its intrinsic mediocrity, while railing against bogeymen. A tearjerking display.
I just bought the game and rolled up a dwarf chanter, kind of digging the class gimmick with setting up your chants and stuff. I only just got to the first town and I haven't seen any huge text walls yet, the verbosity is fine so far.
>>3669834>"No!"
Deh!
>>3669880Why do you type like that unironically>>3669875Its me only twice, with two Josh picrels. The rest are different people. Kill yourself, schizo.
>>3669893Because I "unironically" want to.
>>3669896Because you are a fat neckbeard with a ponytail. There you go, fucking sperg.
>>3669898I'm "unironically" fairly fit and have close-cropped hair. I don't think you are suited to anonymous posting and you experienced an emotional reaction to "big" words, thinking it's "pretentiousness" and not "mockery".Now, cry.
>>3669887I genuinely like what they did with lots of the classes, especially the chanter, being a far more mechanically interesting version of the often times confused D&D bard. Avoid the dumb backers NPCs (golden name-plate) and you'll be fine.
>>3669899You are the most pretentious cunt I have ever seen on this board. The only emotion that provoked is disgust. People like you get bullied and slapped around IRL, that's why you talk like a dark elf on chinese image boards
>>3669899And again, you criticized POE for being a pretentious word salad, dude... that's the most ironic thing ever. That's literally how you type. You type like a fucking POE npc
>>3669910Will do
>>3669913Nah, you can talk like you want when you aren't an ugly weakling. It's little men like you who have to "blend in".>>3669914lmao, so close.
>>3669917so typing like a retard is your way of not blending in
>>3669943
>>3669841>It's just as "spontaneous, fun and exciting" as a baby shitting itselfI have more fun watching my babies shit themselves than I do playing PoE, to be honest
>>3669834I miss Potter posting.
>>3669812I used to post stuff like this but recently replayed both POEs and now I respect Sawyer. He was right and I just didn't dig deep enough into the systems to find the fun.
>>3669893>yes I'm confirming that indeed at least 50% of these are samefagging>stop making things up about people samefagging you shizo
>>3669880>Small men grasp for the reassurance of consensussays a cuckdexer-hugbox hermitlmao
>>3669914>like a fucking POE npcnta but like a goldplated POE npc might I add
>>3670437>>3670438>>3670439samefag
yeah the writing is shityou can praise poe for a number of things (or at least things attempted), but both the writing and the world-building are a bore
>>3670447yeah, no shit sherlock
>>3669792
>>3669875Codex living renbt free in your head a susual for a poe fag.
>>3669887It's honestly not that verbose other than some of Avellone's garbage. A pain to read though, since they went with the horizontal textboxes.
Reddit thread
le balance man making all of the stats vital to every class just means every single build is basically "put a middling amount of points in every stat"
>>3670559There are flaws with the implementation of which stats do what, but I like the overall idea. I enjoy giving every character 10s with two 18s based on what they need. Dump stats are cringe, unless you’re a paladin dumping INT, then it’s based roleplaying
>>3670561>Dump stats are cringeFucking zoomies ruining everything.
>>3670563You want braindead min-max where some stats do absolutely nothing and are worthless.All stats should be useful for all classes, just that some classes benefit more from certain ones.You actively want more braindead games.
>>3670559Nope, it's more like you're shifting a gradient and it allows for the same class to play very differently simply by shifting it's stats.
>>3670567>All stats should be useful for all classeswizard needing strength is retarded
>>3670563>Fucking zoomies ruining everything.I’m almost certainly older than you are, baka-san.
>>3670574>but it's akshually might which can mean the strenght of your mind or something which obviously enables you to pick up and move large heavy objects just like physical strenght O^Ot. balanceman
>>3670530>renbt freeI don't think you understand what it means cuckdex-anonyou can't keep spamming your retarded opinions no one asked you for and proceed saying ' hehe rent free!!1'were you not up your own asses on every resource you use aside from cuckdex no one would remember about it
>>3670567this
>>3670567>>3670591I get what they _tried_ to do and I do give points for effort, but when the end result is muscle wizards and genius barbarians being "normal" (not necessarily always the most optimal) it just fucks too much with what the cool kids call verisimilitude. If anything poe proved why the archetypes and "cliches" of classes work so well and why they are endlessly repeated. The difference of a well made system and a badly made one is in the execution of the concepts.
>>3670595Yup, that’s what I meant by>There are flaws with the implementation of which stats do what, but I like the overall idea.Muscle wizards are a fucking stupid idea. Conan the librarian is based though>t. muscle wizard irlPoE is general is “interesting mechanical concepts, poorly implemented: the game”. Every stat should be valuable to every class to varying degrees, and the concept of “I’m gonna dump every stat I don’t care about to max damage output on the one I do care about” is retarded and flattens build variety. Unless you’re gonna go all in and roleplay Raistlin as sickly, infirm, and weak, but usually no one’s doing that, usually it’s all just pure munchkin min maxing with no concern for roleplaying or logical consistency. I personally have fun trying to optimize within the bounds of what’s thematic and fluffy and appropriate.I do like what PoE did with varying grades of miss, graze, hit, crit though. Neat idea.My favorite goofy shit in PoE is the enchanted dagger or whatever that does damage over time, but instead of being coded as “does X damage per second, multiplied by Y duration” they did “does X damage divided by Y duration” so rather than high INT prolonging the negative effect and the integral giving higher total damage, low INT just makes the same damage happen faster, so lots of cheetofingers dumped INT to maximize the damage per second from the weapon.
>>3670567>You want braindead min-max where some stats do absolutely nothing and are worthless.Yes, it is the core of the genre. Deal with it.>All stats should be useful for all classes, just that some classes benefit more from certain ones.Never works and as seen in POE, fails spectacularly.>You actively want more braindead games.Yeah, i want braindead game such as wizardry and goldbox games that have min max systems.Go play something other than POE and then come back with a opinion.>>3670576>I’m almost certainly older than you are, baka-san.Nah, you are typical underage zoomie pretending to be an oldfag.>>3670590>you can't keep spamming your retarded opinions Literally just wrote renbt free and have nothing do with this thread minus that. You are so broken by the codex you see every anon on vrpg as a codex samefag. I don't think meds can help at this point.
>>3670574>wizard needing strength is retardedD&D stat system is retarded.But physical strength could easily be that you can carry more or heavier gear without interrupting your spellcasting. Meaning stuff like being able to wear light or medium armor, not just cloth.This in turn could be more useful for mage multiclasses with martial classes.>>3670595Poorly designed shit is repeated because too many devs and PnP designers just copy what they like and are familiar with.The DPS-Healer-Tank triangle is a perfect example of trash design being repeated, despite being crap.>>3670630>Yes, it is the core of the genre.No, it's not. Even if it was that's a good reason to change it, because these games should not be designed for braindead subhumans incapable of basic thought.Stick to playing in your mud puddle, that's the max level of complexity you can handle.
>>3670630yeah whatever, you are in fact a cuckdexer that also posts vrpgso everything applies to you as well
>>3670579trying to go safe with Might is the only flawThey should have doubled down on it>hell yeah you need muscles to channel magic energy!>hit me with dat protein shake, brothereasy to head-canon though
>>3670595>If anything poe proved why the archetypes and "cliches" of classes work so well and why they are endlessly repeated.Why is that?apart from the fact that [midwit] people are pre-biased towards familiar things
>>3670595>but when the end result is muscle wizards and genius barbarians being "normal"also forgot to askWhy?what is inherently wrong about those?ancient greek scholars were physically adept, seems like a perfect rational for having a physically able wizards as well"smart" barbarians doesn't offend me as well, why can't "intelligence" as an abstraction not only cover everything associated with academia and "book smarts" but being able to think quick on your feet in the heat of battle as well?
>>3670665If you can’t understand why archetypes resonate with the human soul, then it is you who is the midwit, anon.
>>3670574>wizard needing strength is retardedTell that to Ryu as he keeps throwing fireballs in your face.
>>3670667>what is inherently wrong about those?There is actually nothing wrong with that, it's just the implementation being somewhat confused about it. In PoE's case, it's not strength, but a "might", so it's more abstract and can work with whatever your class is, you do more damage or heal more because of might.But in the case of dialog, it's treated as if you have big muscles. High might can allow you to choke or intimidate someone, or submit before they can attack. And it's written like you use physical force, your big arms and bulky muscles, not your more abstract "might". This is really the only flaw about how might is portrayed. I don't think anyone would be bothered if the flavor text was changed based on your characters class, like using magical force instead of muscles when subduing someone during dialog.By the way, my first time in this thread making a post, before someone confuses me with someone else.
>>3670579>strenght of your mindOf your soul.Give a child the soul of an animal and it will grow into an abomination neither man nor beast. A man with a mighty soul will be strong in muscle and magic.The setting is internally coherent and will show you these things.
>>3670662The only people who say shit like this are codexfags. No one talks about that site except them, I guarantee you are on their Discord.
>>3670689Fireballs are Ki, which is spiritual and not a science of the intellect. Reducing it to a property of the muscle is taking the spiritual and making it mundane. Pillars of Eternity is made by materialists, this is why it lacks soul.
Beat it a few months ago and I found it completely underwhelming. It was Baldur's Gate without any interesting characters & no urgency to the story. There was no mystery to unravel & nothing felt like it was unfolding. The big "twist" was >LE ATHEISM! BRO!! THERE ARE NO GODSThe characters were completely hollow. The mechanics of the stronghold felt like an iphone game. The random npcs you could "awaken" were just crowd funded slop & broke my immersion. I felt no desire to move on to the sequel.
>>3670750>The mechanics of the stronghold felt like an iphone game.Kickstarter stretch goal half assed at the last minuteIirc the ships in Deadfire were the same way
>>3670769Stretch goals are bad in almost every game I've seen them get implemented. Crowdfunding makes games worse.
>>3670720>which is spiritual and not a science of the intellectMagic is not intelligence. Magic is not created from intelligence.Ken sets people on fire.
>>3670771>Crowdfunding makes games worse.True, but in the case of PoE there would've been no game if not for crowdfunding. Nobody believed into giving them funds for a RTWP nostalgiabait game.
>>3670773Wizardry is specifically the science of Magic and this is born out in the lore of PoE, wizards study and learn rules which operate magical functions. Ki is not organized magic, training in 100x gravity didn't make Goku's muscles able to make his brain read thoughts, it's that the training process and the pain and effort enlightened him spiritually. Think Yoda, small and able to move a starship.
>play PoE >feels like a slog, generally just bored>quit after trying out several different classes in an attempt to make myself enjoy the game>play Tyranny immediately after>finish the game over a week in a few sittingsWhy was this allowed to happen?
>>3670780Feargus Urqhart has Scottish blood.
>>3670669nigger don't make it spiritual or whatnot, it's not that complicatedmost people find comfort in familiar things and stress when facing unfamiliar thingsthis fact is exploited by every consumer industry there is from selling shoes, to writing songs and filming moviesI agree that I made my previous point a bit baity, nothing wrong with having natural tendenciesit's just that some of us get tired of the same thing on repeat and require something [even if barely] more sophisticatedtldr;muh archetypes is a pleb take
>>3670789>most people find comfort in familiar things and stress when facing unfamiliar thingsThis is reducing human experience to something mechanical. You do this because the spiritual frightens you, it's ephemeral.
>>3670690I don't see it as much of a problem, see >>3670664just admit obsidian were to shy to go all the way, and head-canon straight up muscle being beneficial at casting powerful magic, say it helps to channel powerful magical energy
What they should've done is had the stat put in context of the character's class when making stat checks. There was a disconnect between the design and the implementation.
>>3670720>Fireballs are Kianon, first of all please don't go full retard "this is not how magic is _supposed_ to work" pathit's magic, fantasy, it doesn't exist so it can work in whatever waysecondly, why is it so hard for you to accept that magic can require all three: the learned knowledge, intelligence, and physical strength?there is no magic but there are some parallels in real lifea mechanic would need understand the general operation of some unit (learned knowledge), can greatly benefit from quick thinking and connecting the dots (say to properly guess what is the cause of an issue), but strength also helps to actually complete the task
>>3670802I'm talking about the specific lore of Pillars and the specific lore of Street Fighter. Wizardry is specifically the study of the rules of magic, a science requiring intelligence. That's their lore, not mine. Go look at the class description.
>>3670791yeah whatever spriti-boy
>>3670804Boo.
>>3670803>Wizardry is specifically the study of the rules of magicYeah, and the act of studying something is not the same as practicing somethingGiving you the benefit of the doubt you are arguing in good faith, please let me point out that this is addressed in the second paragraph of the post you are replyinghere is another good examplemedicine is a science, it requires learning and it requires intelligence both while studying and to connect the dots when practicingBut that's not enough on its own, specifically surgeons require good hand-eye coordination and nimbleness, an entirely physical characteristic
>>3670807>Yeah, and the act of studying something is not the same as practicing somethingSome things, even in application are an intellectual activity, like engineering. Besides, I'm mostly dealing with the false equivalency of pointing to out of setting "muscle wizards". I'm fine with lore that requires dexterity to make motions or constitution to withstand forces or whatever.
>>3670810the point stands that a generally intellectual activity which would require tons of acquired knowledge can still rely on physical feats to actually practice said activityand in case of magic nothing prohibits you from straight out saying that a physically stronger person all other things being equal can channel more magical energy that results in more potent spell effect
>>3670815Of course, but in a type of magic based on study, intelligence should allow you to design a more efficient way of channeling energy requiring less reliance on the physical body as well. Regardless, Goku or Ryu or whoever has no bearing.
>>3670816OK, so would you generally agree with my reasoning above that physical strength can in fact help with spell effects?all other things considered _equal_, specifically intelligence and learned knowledgesay it's the same exact person, but in test case B strength is magically enchanted
>>3670824It can be whatever the designer wants. It's just confusing when using preexisting memes like "wizard" and stating that it's a class based on study and then having them able to easily bend iron bars in a stat check.
>>3670826What's confusing about it? You made a physically strong wizard and he can pass the physical strength checks.If you want you're free to make one with average or low might. High Might isn't a requirement, it's just an option.
>>3670826>stating that it's a class based on study and then having them able to easily bend iron bars in a stat check.wtf? like why?if a character belonging to a class based on study nevertheless developed high strength score [regardless of a reason]in what way is him being able to bend bars confusing?
>>3670828Because it's just not what people think when they hear the word "wizard". Why not use a new term?
>>3670807>But that's not enough on its own, specifically surgeons require good hand-eye coordination and nimbleness, an entirely physical characteristicare there surgeons who have no dexterity? that's a class requirement, not a boon. by this logic, all wizards should have to go to the gym and none of them should be slight of build.
>>3670830But you aren't bending the bars due to your class choice, it's all about the base attributes you have chosen and aren't in any way restricted by the class.
>>3670830>Because it's just not what "people" think when they hear the word "wizard"so? what kind of argument is that?what's next, pillars system is bad because it's not ADnD 2e?you are free to make the same wizards archetype you are accustomed to in pillars, are you not?there is nothing that makes strength a requirement for an effective wizard buildbut it doesn't mean that wizards can't be buffed up beefcakes at all, and it doesn't mean they can't benefit from it
>>3670832Thus diminishing the class fantasy and its assigned lore. A retard can become a wizard, a class based on study. The solution? Remove either classes or attributes altogether.
>>3670834>you are free to make the same wizards archetype you are accustomed to in pillars, are you not?No, because the physical is connected to the immaterial when the wizard archetype is based on acquired wisdom. As soon as a physical stat impacts wizardry, you've tainted the archetype and should create a new class concept.
>>3670831>that's a class requirement,it's not you are making it up, there are no class restriction in Pillars when it comes to attributesI'm not really interested in discussions with someone who has 0 knowledge on the subjectalso Pillars attributes are not on an absolute scale since it's not meant to be universalhaving a minimal might of 2 is just -25% below average
>>3670839>can't readit's a class requirement of "surgeon" in real life. i'm not the one who brought up a real world circumstance. surgeons require dexterity, it isn't simply impacting their work with bonuses, they have to have it. having a class means having a set of guidelines that defines the class.>having a minimal might of 2 is just -25% below averageimagine a surgeon with 25% less hand-eye coordination, lol. small differences are incredibly important at the limits of human ability, especially when it comes to combat or competition. look at olympic athletes.
>>3670835>if you're strong then you're a retardD&D brain rot has set in
>>3670834>you are free to make the same wizards archetype you are accustomed to in pillars, are you not?>there is nothing that makes strength a requirement for an effective wizard buildNTA, and this is true (if I were gonna roll a Poe wiz I’d max INT and PER not STR) but what causes objections to the mechanics encouraging muscle wizards and genius barbarians isn’t that those things are possible, it’s that the mechanics conflate two different concepts and reduce them to a single statistic, and that reduction illustrates the contradiction between those concepts. There’s no reason that a beefcake fighter should have strong magical damage, or that a barbarians intellect should make his weapon reach a greater area, and it requires post-hoc ass-pulling and retcons that>bbbut that statistic doesn’t really mean what it says it meansto reconcile the silliness
>>3670845Not what I said. Stop assuming I'm pro-D&D or railing against your "grognard" strawman like a child. I'm talking about how any set of attributes doesn't restrict class choice, yet they have classes still.
>>3670844I can't really comment on what kind of dexterity is required from a surgeon, I'm not onebut I can reasonably assume that some are better and some are worse
>>3670850If classes were restricted to attributes, why have attributes at all other than "D&D did it"?That's not a choice if you can only use certain attributes on a specific class. You may not be a D&D tard but sure you seem to reason like one.
>>3670852do you think someone with a quarter less than the average dexterity could feasibly become a surgeon? the difference between the best surgeons and an average one is not large in terms of "attributes". the philosophy behind the game is broken with regards to reality, don't mention it.
>>3670854>why have attributes at all other than "D&D did it"?Exactly my point. Cargo cult design.>That's not a choice if you can only use certain attributes on a specific classThen why have classes at all? To pick and choose abilities a la carte is far more choice.
>>3670857>Then why have classes at all? To pick and choose abilities a la carte is far more choice.Because the made a crowfunded game appealing to infinity engine games fans, thus they wanted to present a game with classes in it.The tabletop version of Pillars doesn't need to appeal to a crowd therefore it's a classless system like all good RPGs are.
>>3670859See, even the designers know Pillars is a schizo system trying to appeal to different design philosophies at cross purposes.
This thread is a prime example of how this hobby is full of worthless retards. Anything different and they chimp out like primitive apes. Incapable of looking from different perspectives and surely also incapable of creating anything worthwhile. Kill yourselves.
>>3670864Is PIllars "different" or is it pandering to aging BG fans?
>>3670846>There’s no reason that a beefcake fighter should have strong magical damage, or that a barbarians intellect should make his weapon reach a greater areaI'm addressing these two points specifically laterbut first I wanted to point out what I consider to be the general fallacy trap you are falling into.The most important thing is that while some strive to and use simulation as a starting point for an RPG system, RPG systems are _not_ a simulation. And I can see fundamental reasons why it is so, be sure to ask me if you are interested, but it really is another topic and don't expect a fast reply, I'm writing my last posts today.RPG mechanics don't need to make perfect simulational sense, they only need to make enough sense.> mechanics conflate two different concepts and reduce them to a single statisticso this line of yours is an inevitable flaw (but it's only a flaw in a simulationist approach) of RPG systems, because they are not simulations in the very natureHowever, I don't think you have any gripes with other such abstractions, like hit point and experience points? What about AC both deflecting blows but also avoiding blows? those are very different things you know, one is about getting hit, the other is about avoiding getting hit.What about my favorite, PF1e charisma? It conflates two different concepts, leadership and appearance, into a single statistic. So theoretically wearing makeup can make a blade bounce back (mechanically speaking). Makeup -> charisma bonus -> with the right feats it translates to AC -> which mechanically indistinguishably means blows glancing of armorend of p.1
>>3670867>like hit point and experience points? What about AC both deflecting blows but also avoiding blows?>PF1e charismaThese are all bad.
>>3670867cont. addressing the following as promised>no reason that a beefcake fighter should have strong magical damage, or that a barbarians intellect should make his weapon reach a greater areain the light of the above, it doesn't have to make perfect sense, only enough senseso here is why these things are not nonsensical>martial class might = bonus to magical damagewhy not? he might not have learned how spells work, but considering magic damage would work on the same principal as wizard's, a martial's strength would provide the same bonus to channeling magical energythe only difference is he isn't using acquired knowledge, but postulating magical energy instinctively >barbarians intellect should make his weapon reach a greater areagreater area here is obviously an abstraction to hitting more targetswell, a barbarian that can think quick on his feet can chain blows or even hit multiple targets with a single oneever seen Jackie Chan movies when he hits to guys with the same kick?
>it doesn't have to make sense
>>3670869then you admit to not liking RPG systems in generalbecause RPGs are fundamentally not simulationsa simulation is no longer an RPGthat's fine while a bit off considering we are on /vrpg/, and I really can't help you beyond this point
>>3670872>RPG mechanics don't need to make perfect simulational sense=/=>it doesn't have to make senseBut I recon you already know that
>>3670873Stuck in your narrow preconceptions, huh? Scared to evolve the genre?
>>3670856why does any of it matter?do Eora wizards also require some sort of professional certifications to practice magic just as surgeons require one irl?100% there are no wizard NPCs with a strength of 3 in pillars gamesso while you as a player are free to make one, it would be a strange casethen again you are free to make up roleplaying reasons why it is like that
>>3670881making a wizard with 3 intelligence is dumb when the class fantasy is that they are studious. lore shouldn't conflict with mechanics.
>>3670875I gave it some thought in the past and I'm pretty sure I've come to a pretty robust system of arguments to why simulations can't be considered RPGsI can lay it out tomorrow if you are interested
>>3670883Limb health, more statistical variety in damage avoidance, and more attribute granularity don't make something not an RPG. It just means there's more to it, probably not good in tabletop, fine in computer games. Besides, I'm mocking the whole "if you don't like Pillars you are a D&D grogard stuck in the past" because that concept applies to your preconceptions and personal philosophy about RPGs.
>>3670857>Then why have classes at all?do you know how classes work in pillars?it's not DnD3.5/PF1e where a class is just a set of free feats + access to feats
>>3670887Man, you just aren't smart enough to engage here. I don't want to explain my posts over and over.
>>3670595I think the issue is that they abstracted away from attributes being simple physical properties. Might probably isn't supposed to be musculature, but some kind of general aggressiveness/offensive prowess. In terms of game design it makes sense, it's much more interesting if all stats have some useful effect for every class and the amount of impactful decisions and builds you can make is vastly increased.As a character fantasy, though, it's hard to intuit. I can intuit giving my barbarian muscles by putting points in strength, but what the fuck does it mean for a wizard to have might? What practical, physical/mental property about him changes that makes his spells do more damage? After running through PoE twice and the second game once I have some idea of how to build characters in its system but they're all abstract ideas of how to use the system, not character ideas that are informed by roleplaying. When I play DnD I can imagine for myself the life my character lead to end up with the stats they did and be a capable adventurer of a specific type, but when I'm rolling a new character in PoE it's very hard for me to fit him into the world in a way that doesn't just involve calling him an adventurer in an RPG.
>>3670865it's whichever deflects any warranted criticism of the game better at different moments
>>3670898You made a good post.I have some differing views on this however:>it's much more interesting if all stats have some useful effect for every class and the amount of impactful decisions and builds you can make is vastly increased.I used to think like this and I can easily see why this is an attractive line of thinking, but after seeing this implemented in various games over a span of time I can't really think of a game where this philosophy would have contributed to "transcending" the game or its mechanics to new heights. At best it's a tradeoff or neutral, but more often than not it seems to result in the mechanics (for a character) being a bland mess and at its worst it becomes a convoluted (not complex, convoluted) and confused patchwork where any concept of a "what is this character" is lost and everything is just marginal "add x% to abilities y and z, get n amount of resource a and b".There are obviously degrees to this, but off the top of my head some better examples of a multi-stat approach usually have some valuable tresholds at the lower end of the scale that are more than just general %-increasements: in the original ADOM and bg having less than retard level intelligence (9 I think) gives you literacy that can have very meaningful gameplay consequences, or that having less-than noodle arm strengh allows you to equip more powerful weapons and armor even for characters that don't mainly focus on that. In the better examples you are generally not (in gameplay terms) encouraged to just mix and match any stats for any character, but the less important stats can still give you meaningful gains if you invest in them a little bit.The original fallout games (1&2) are an interesting example of multi-stat approach, but it's a classless system to begin with so it's a bit of a different animal and it does have some of that uninteresting %-increasement dishwater in its progression.cont. 1/2
>>3670867>RPG mechanics don't need to make perfect simulational sense, they only need to make enough sense.I agree with this, but what's being argued here is that PoE's abstractions are sufficiently in "don't make enough sense" to be immersion-breaking. This is why people innately object to things like muscle wizard = fireball damage go up, and genius barbarian = AoE go brr.>However, I don't think you have any gripes with other such abstractions, like hit point and experience points?Everyone accepts these as gamey conceits that are at least understandable. Hit points = capacity to absorb damage before dying (much like integrating a stress-strain curve gives toughness, in units of energy absorbed before fracture). The problem is that PoE's abstractions for the stats are unsatisfying because they're silly.>What about AC both deflecting blows but also avoiding blows?Armor class was originally from naval wargames, and avoiding damage through AC was due to hull thickness (AC 1 was armor class, ship of the line first rate, etc)>What about my favorite, PF1e charisma? It conflates two different concepts, leadership and appearance, into a single statistic.Yup, that's a pertinent example to the issue being discussed here.>So theoretically wearing makeup can make a blade bounce back (mechanically speaking). Makeup -> charisma bonus -> with the right feats it translates to AC -> which mechanically indistinguishably means blows glancing of armorThis is a good example of why doing silly things with the stats doesn't sit well, because it's no longer an abstraction that's grounded in understandable reality, it's an amalgamation of things that are not the same, and so becomes silly and unrealistic when taken to its logical conclusions. It's no longer an acceptable conceit for gameplay purposes, but the rules are now detracting from their original purpose.>>3670898>I think the issue is that they abstracted away from attributes being simple physical properties.This.
>>3670958cont. 2/2I think ultimately the biggest sin poe did in this regard was that the game mechanics (stats) end up feeling a step too far detached from the game world since they tried to make them cover so many different aspects that don't really gel thematically.They might (pun not intended) have alleviated some of this by refluffing some of their stuff or made the interaction descriptions more specialized, but I don't think it would completely fix the larger problem of different stats being a bit too broadly and vaguely defined.This problem is not something I came up with and is hardly unique to poe; some of the big criticisms of tabletop dnd 4th edition were largely in the same vein: vague ability descriptions that had numerical impact on gameplay mechanics but you couldn't really tell what exactly it was that this ability enabled you to do really. They went with numbers, balance and gameplay first and forgot that without proper fluff it ends up being reduced to a simple math exercise.If you want to comment please make at least complete sentences with something other than bad faith strawmanning and I might bother to read the replies.
>>3670960>I think ultimately the biggest sin poe did in this regard was that the game mechanics (stats) end up feeling a step too far detached from the game world since they tried to make them cover so many different aspects that don't really gel thematically.Yup. I agree.>They might (pun not intended) have alleviated some of this by refluffing some of their stuff or made the interaction descriptions more specializedToo much hubris to admit that some of their ideas were silly and went in the wrong direction. This is also why you'll get the defensive shilling about akshually muscle wizards are logical and reasonable because it just means their uhhhh spiritual strength because uhhhh it says might and not strength so it's okay. This is an extension of your point about getting too in the number-crunching weeds and mechanics, and losing sight of the thematic concepts that the numbers are supposed to represent. Doubling down on, ahem, soullessness.
>>3670958>having less-than noodle arm strenghtypo, should obviously be "more than"
>>3670958>>3670960Yeah, I mostly agree. The idea seems tempting but I haven't seen implementations where it didn't also lead to problems.That said, the alternative also always has problems attached to it. Endlessly putting points in charisma because it's the main stat of my sorcerer is just not interesting. The fact that a sorcerer with another main stat is just a worse sorcerer, rather than a sorcerer that happens to be good at a different thing, feels like a wasted opportunity. PoE's system can in some cases achieve this, I think an intelligent fighter that is better at crowd control and AoEs makes some amount of sense, as does a physically weak paladin with high resolve. It's just that there are so many combinations and classes where it doesn't make sense that it does ends up being hard to make a character that you can envision being a human being with physical traits.Essentially, the current system only makes sense with physical classes and even then the barbarian ends up being silly. I think having stat requirements (both upper and lower thresholds) for classes could work to alleviate this somewhat. It could be fun to force barbarians to have less than 7 int, magic users to have more than 15, paladins to have a certain amount of resolve, etc.I agree that ideally you would also want to have meaningful thresholds at certain values that fundamentally change what your character is capable of.
>>3670881>100% there are no wizard NPCs with a strength of 3 in pillars gamesBecause the attribute is called might.The entire discussion in this thread is fucked, because you talk about strength, not might.
>>3670559>"put a middling amount of points in every stat"why would you do that unless you have a character that you make into jack of all trades
>>3671201You can still keep most stats at an average 10 and pump two stats you care about to the maximum of 18. You don’t have to min max dump shit you don’t care about so you’re a lopsided autist with retard strength, or an ugly and frail genius, for example (sorry for those self inserters in this board)
>>3671058This argument falls flat because in-game, might is treated as physical strength, allowing you to bend and break things by pushing, pulling, etc, or lifting heavy objects with your hands.
>>3671058yeah, but I'm arguing that going all in and flat out treating it as strength makes enough sense that such mental gymnastics are not necessaryso might/strength makes no difference to me, I just say>yeah it's physical strength and it makes my fireball do more damage, so what? gonna cry?
>>3670886>Limb health, more statistical variety in damage avoidance, and more attribute granularity don't make something not an RPGdoesn't make it a simulation eitherit makes it a shitty "simulationist-lite" RPG system, sure, but it's still far from a simulation>personal philosophy about RPGs.as I said I gave it quite a bit of thought, simulations are fundamentally different from RPGs
>>3669792The biggest reveal that CRPG writers are massive hacks is how they insist on aping character descriptions because they observe that's how novelists write. Hey idiot, novelists describe their character's appearance because that's literally all the reader has to go on. You're writing in a visual medium, use the goddamn character portrait. Provide all those overly elaborate descriptions to the art team not the player you fucking imbecile.
>>3670888bruh... there are entire paragraphs in this thread from anons that actually have something to say, and that's ain't youso spare me that "i'm tired explaning" bullshit of yours and get lostfor real
>>3670837>As soon as a physical stat impacts wizardry, you've tainted the archetype and should create a new classforgot to address that yesterdayfirst of all, it sounds JRPGayish, with them having tens of jobs/classes or whateversecondly, that's nonsensicalbut more importantly an immediate implication of this is that you can't design a system with no dump statsbecause if physical stats aren't important to wizardry they might as well not be important at all (because everything can be addressed via wizardry), i.e. they are dump stats
>>3669792>force myself to finish critically acclaimed CRPGs>despair that my attention-starved brain is too ADHD to read anything anymore>someone gifts me a fantasy novel for Christmas>as a gesture to said person, attempt to actually read it even though it's like 1000+ pages>within a few chapters I'm totally engrossed, wind up staying up all the night to finish it>realize that my attention span was never the issue, CRPG devs just can't write and the audience has no taste
>>3670959>are sufficiently in "don't make enough sense" to be immersion-breakingfor people with mental rigidity and no imagination sureit's perfectly addressable otherwise, see >>3670871 for martials and >>3670824 and above for casters>much like integrating a stress-strain curve gives toughness, in units of energy absorbed before fracturelmao that is indeed silly, even more so than muscle-fireball, because we know for a fact that's not how human-sized heroes operateeveryone just accepts it because they are familiar and accustomed to hitpoints/XP/ACthere is literally no fundamental difference compared to PoE Might accounting for "completely different things" (again I don't think it necessary is just consider physical strength important to channeling magical energy)>grounded in understandable realitymagic is not grounded in understandable realityshould we get rid of high-fantasy as well?anon, it's called a fantasy game for a reason
What's with baseder and both spamming trash encounters and making sure that you get absolutely nothing out of them. Is wasting your time his fetish or something.
>>3671264>doesn't make it a simulation eitherRight, and hating some particular nonsensical abstractions doesn't mean someone is pushing for simulationism.>>3671269Bruh, you just don't read very well. You can't engage with thoughts that don't fit your preconceptions, you want to place the idea you encounter into a container.>>3671269>first of all, it sounds JRPGayishChildish non sequitur.>because if physical stats aren't important to wizardry they might as well not be important at all (because everything can be addressed via wizardry)This has nothing to do with attributes at all. No character should be able to do everything, encounter-wise. That's why parties are groups of people with disparate abilities who work together. A class should have a set of standards, otherwise why have a class at all?
i am installing it right now. gonna give it my third try, didn't come farther than the first town the previous times
>>3669792Quite possibly the most intelligent OP ever written on this board.
>>3669792Thanks OP I had a good hearty laugh, hope you have an excellent day mate.
>pick a cipher>give him disappointer and kana rua's gun>spend entire encounters paralyzing, dominating and DPSing the absolute FUCK out of everythingIs this class a developer's pet or something?
>>3671677>DPSing
>>3671354>This has nothing to do with attributes at all.in a discussion on "muscle-wizards"? ok, let's see where it takes us>No character should be able to do everything, encounter-wise.So you are arguing this is the case w/ PoE?
>>3671812No.
>>3671825>one word replygreat to see the effort from your sidesure convinces people you have some thought through ideas on the subject
>>3671861You asked a yes or no question. I answered.
>>3671677Obviously. The entire story is written around the cipher. You're a magic dude who can see souls, and that's what the cipher class is all about.
>>3670595>muscle wizards and genius barbariansno idea what you are talking about since might also refers to spiritual strengththey just didn't map the attributes properly onto each other it's a weird clusterfuck to be frank and I don't think that can ever be avoided
FUCK I WANT TO INSTALL AND PLAY THIS BORING ASS GAME AGAINhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xm9xclRC80fuck it, I'm installing it
>>3671946Actually might making you better at healing makes perfect sense if you think about it: you can hug your partymembers harder, make a makeshift tourniquet by squeezing their arm or leg really hard with your grasp or smashing them in the face really hard with the healing mace.there is no healing mace
>>3672172>tourniquetBut I want them to keep all their limbs!
>>3672285loss of limbs from tourniquets is in my understanding a bit of a meme that doesn't really happen if they're not used in retarded waysalso healing maces can be used on irl criminals to heal their criminal behaviour
>>3669813The exp system sucks but not for the reason you're crying about.Quests give out way too much exp so you get overlevelled way too easily. You have to avoid a lot of sidequests if you want a proper difficulty curve. I wish the game had the railroaded exp you're complaining about.
>>3670559I see people dumping stats in pillars all the time.People set con and resolve to 3 on super min max dps builds.Min max is an option but not the only one, idk why people get so triggered by pillars stat system.
Gonna replay this soon on potd and finally finish white march.Can't decide on my class, was thinking bleak walker paladin or something gimmicky like melee mage.
>>3672631Paladin is kinda shit all around before you get the set yourself on fire gimmick and melee mage isn't nowhere near as complicated or gimmicky as you might think. You just fire about 2 buffs at the start of the fight and that's it, you're good to go.
>>3672636You have any recommendations? I'm open to any except monk which I've done in both games already.Maybe it'd be better to wait until deadfire to do melee mage for the multiclassing
>>3672638Honestly I don't have anything to say. Game isn't really all that complex and thinking about the builds is much more interesting than actually playing them. Especially if your avant garde prima ballerina is gonna end up relying on Shods and Firebrand. Guess try Cypher or Rogue if you like microing.
>>3670689ryu is a monk you retard
>>3671677>disappointerDogshit weapon, or did you enchant it?But yeah I agree, cipher is hilariously broken, and that's after a multitude of nerfs since release. Charm as a level 1 spell is a bit silly, and as soon as you get silent scream you can just spam that all game long (RAW damage, AoE, AND cc's a target, wtf? balance man I am disappointed).>>3672621Agreed. Thankfully the IEmod has an XP nerf option, for me on PotD mode 50% XP nerf is pretty much perfect (don't have to scale any content except act 3 and 4). Would probably go to 33% or possibly 25% if I wasn't a completionist.
The atheist elf in this game annoyed me so much I reincarnated her soul on purpose and I wound up sympathizing with the Leaden Key. I thought the writing was not up to the task for the final revelation, and wasn't prepared to handle a Watcher that actually didn't give a shit the gods were manmade.
>>3672690The subverters were themselves subverted. A tale as old as time
>>3672686I find it funny everyone complains about sawyer being the balance man when something as important as the xp curve is completely fucked in both games.How did they never think to nerf it in any of the patches they did? You can end up up like 5 levels ahead just doing random shitty sidequests in the main city of poe1.
>>3672699They walked themselves into a corner the moment the balance man decided that you should get nothing for combat and that there should be a city that has more quests than the rest of the game combined.
>>3671946It still just doesn't work.I've DM'd all my life, and at this my table have my own system.The base attributes are:BodyMindSensesSoulNow let's say you have an skill, "Archery" you use your senses to aim (+atk), your body to drawn the bow (+dmg), your soul to add magic to it, and mind to recall information about it.Why do you need more?
>>3672647How does a monk conjure fire. A monk is just a martial artist.
>>3672686>Dogshit weapon, or did you enchant it?Yeah you can enchant it. Although there's very little reason because they added a bunch of gamebreaking items right to the very beginning of the game via the deadfire pack and you can get a unique blunderbuss with charm effect and a soulbound crossbow like 4 hours after starting the game.
I just feel like taking out exp for combat is fundamentally against this genre, and that when most of your content is killing trash mobs, that part of the gameplay loop should be rewarded
>>3672889>and mind to recall information about itRemembering to actually nock an arrow before you draw it? Makes sense. Many a low int fighter has missed an attack before he forgot to pick up his weapon.
>>3669792I generally liked it.The combat was fun, the writing hit or miss.Same for the characters.Some really great and unique ideas with a so-so execution.Id say it was a solid 7/10.I think what bothered and removed me from the setting the most were the cultures and the weird takes on diversity, you have multiple groups that identify themselves along national lines despite being made up of various races that probably cannot interbreed with each other.Its this weirdly modernized take on fantasy, it feels incongruent with the ideas that the game tries to present, its even weirder that the game kinda refuses to adress it except for the Godlike and furry halflings which seem to be the only ones to be discriminated against.If I had to explain it it feels like someone wanted to tell a classic fantasy story but his own progressive views kept interfering with creating various blends of faux-medieval societies.I feel like this was the game I started noticing "millenial writing"-isms.
I feel like wizards are fucking awful in 1 unless you rest constantly. Druid can stun entire encounter and can stack lashes for insane DPS in shifter form. A few buffs from priest win encounters. Wizard can be entirely replaced by a cipher who will do pretty much everything better.
>>3673443There's got to be a mod that makes all spells "per encounter".
>>3673509Yeah, there is. Also increases grimoire spell cap to 6 per spell level.
>>3673443Imo it's fun to build with all the feats that buff the per-encounter abilities. Priest's interdiction and holy radiance, the wizard's arcane bumtickler, etc
>>3673524The issue is that cipher literally has an entire arsenal of abilities like this and he can spam them foreverLevel 2-3 cipher powers are better than a good chunk of level 8 wizard spells and it's infinite
>>3673536Yeah cipher is busted and I don’t enjoy playing it. Haven’t used once since I played with the companions my first time through back whenever it was new. Now I enjoy custom parties. If I ever replayed I’d I’d do four man, paladin, melee chanter, squishy priest and wizard in back row
>>3673443I always just spam the paralyzing fireball spell you get from white march, shit is busted.
>>3673584It's one of a few saving graces of the wizard honestly. And druid gets an aoe storm that does the same to the entire battlefield while cipher dominates, stunlocks everything, deals retarded raw damage in aoe and disintegrates bosses.
>>3673587I haven't got around to trying druid yet. I don't usually play as a caster mc and I don't really like the druid party member.Maybe this run I'll give them a shot
potd is tougher than I thought, the ghosts in the eothas temple are kicking my ass.
Party members are just terrible in both games. Durance at least feels like a human being and Eder is quite nice in the first one before being flanderized into pettings lmao abomination in the second one. Beyond that these things have about as much personality and drive as random tavern hirelings.
>>3673443Wizard is control rather than damage, you want to use wizard as a debuffer. Also if you made a muscle wizard like everyone else in the world you could get the wizard to self buff and use a long melee weapon since their self buffs are pretty powerful.
>>3673681>Wizard is control rather than damage, you want to use wizard as a debuffer.Yup.>Also if you made a muscle wizard like everyone else in the worldFor me, it's INT + PER. Damage scales poorly in PotD
>>3673681Never got why some people got so butthurt about the muscle wizard thing, its not even the best way to build a wizard, its just a decent option.
>>3673702It's just funny to mess with hipsters who have a hard-on for hating "grognards" and get irate defending PoE. They never fail to get riled up by it.
>>3672895he dipped one level in sorcerer to get the cantrips
>>3670574Not needing necessarily, but having a use for it so it doesn't just get dumped.
>>3670667>why can't "intelligence" as an abstraction not only cover everything associated with academia and "book smarts" but being able to think quick on your feet in the heat of battle as well?This is why I like intelligence being a stat and knowledge being represented by skills, two separate thingst that complement each other.
>>3673823Yet people still dump it... Almost like 'dumping' will always happen in any point buy system.
>>3673835HeySo basically, I’m just not gonna dump them (the stats)I know… UGH… I knowI’m just not gonna dump any stats, is allHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>3673835Dumping Might in PoE is a choice, dumping Strength as a Wizard in D&D-likes is mandatory if you want a moderately optimized character.That's the difference.
>>3673702In my own personal opinion, it's because it PoE's attribute system pigeonholes characters into certain roles. If you try to make a damage wizard, he will only be good at damage and cannot roleswitch to something else, such as a summoner or a debuffer. Plus the attributes for a melee wizard and a spell damage wizard is yhe same making wizards not as vulnerable if they somehow run out of spells.The other problem is the armor system in that it creates very strict roles for each character, either you are a tank or you take lots of actions.In an attempt to make a more balanced system, Sawyer just made a more inflexible system which pigeonholes characters into the new mmo triangle dps/damage avoidance/support.
>>3673838There's always a choice, STR is useful for carry capacity. CHA is the dump for Wizards. The fact is that point buy encourages you to spend your points wisely and classes tend towards specialization. Either remove attributes, remove classes, or remove point buy. PoE is just another D&D derivative.
>>3673843It's not just classes that tend toward specialisation, the entire game is about specialising. If you fail to have certain specialisation in your setup, your team is worse off for it. Don't have a rogue? Your team loses a lot of skill related options. Don't have a priest? Good luck with negative levels. Don't have a face? Your entire team is full of socially retarded autists that will offend the king and get their entire party exiled/imprisoned.If you don't specialise, you are letting down your team.
>>3669812He looks like a communist Weird Al.
>>3673681The problem with control wizards is that druid literally outplays them just by having mass paralysis that refreshes for 30 seconds
>>3673835It's not a personal attack against your decision to dump stats, dude. Just a notion that giving you reason to have more balanced attributes is a good idea, at least in theory.
>>3673885There's no reason to have balanced attributes in any RPG, specialization is king, stacking bonuses is always mathematically superior. I'm mocking D&D based RPGs like PoE anyway, I'd really prefer no attributes at all.
>>3669792Didn't read the rest of the thread, but I came here to say that POE and POE2 are good games with with certain problems (lack of QOL in POE1 with strange balancing choices, and a lackluster ending sequence and final ending in POE2 unless you have the DLC) that everyone acts like are dealbreakers because they're unironically game journo brained, where everything is either a 10/10 or a 1/10, the best thing ever or the worst thing ever.>If you can't have fun with POE, fine, that's just a consequence of the game's design for you. But don't act like they're irredeemable shit and don't have something going on that makes them popular among CRPG fans who aren't old fuddy duddies who never got over Fallout 1, Arcanum, and Neverwinter Nights.
>>3673910Having an ending that effectively makes entire journey pointless feels terrible
>dumps you
>>3673916It does, but it also doesn't entirely invalidate what the entire rest of the game does right.>>3673917>imagine getting dumped, skill issue
>>3673926>imagine getting dumped, skill issueI don't think there's an ending where you two stay together
>>3673917Maaan, i still remember the sex scenes with Xoti. She tells you to open your mouth and then proceeds to spit inside it. I love that nasty bitch.
>>3673860There's an alternative control wozard build that only works in the first game. It takes advantage of the blast perk wizards get. Basically you use it to create an interrupt wizard with high perception, intelligence and dexterity. Might is optional since im pretty sure it doesn't effect blast damage.
>>3673959Just a wand autoattack bot?
>>3673962Yes, with self buffs and able to drop alternative control spells when needed.
>>3673860The problem with is that they’re lame and I never want one in my party
>>3673965Like 90% of wizard spells are so fucking boringAnd it doesn't help you have nearly zero wizard reactivity too
Problem with stat system is that you either make a glass cannon that dumps con and res or your stats don't matter. One balanced character compared to another balanced character will be maybe 9% better at something.
>>3673843>STR is useful for carry capacityuseless
>>3673843>Either remove attributes, remove classes, or remove point buyyou should remove your head from being attached to your shoulders Int is a dump stat for you irl anyway
>>3673916retard takethe ending was the mass murders we made along the waythe end sequence/slides are just there for the player to reflect on it and recall the best ones
>>3674060>>3674062lol, D&Dtard is mad.
No-one forces you to dump stat. You make that choice yourself because you want to cheese the game rather than make a sensible character and role-play.The problem is (You).
>>3674082Wrong, the system itself encourages dump statting. D&D and it's knockoffs are about specialisation and refusing to do so lets down your entire party.
What are some fun multiclasses for deadfire? I really enjoyed monk/rogue.
>>3674992Paladin/fighter
>>3669792>time seems to slow, and you feel that once upon a time in another life, this man was a farmer "Important info
>>3669816Did that. Gets really tedious mid poe2 latest.
>>3675023Mid poe1*
>>3674091>Wrong, the system itself encourages dump statting. D&D and it's knockoffs are about specialisation and refusing to do so lets down your entire party.This is fundamentally wrong, and stems from you viewing the game as *needing* to min-max and munchkin and power game, rather than play your character. In early editions of DnD you rolled your chars and sometimes you got great rolls and sometimes you got shitty rolls, the point was you adapted to what you got and made do. Hell, some DMs had you roll your stats in order and that's what you got, couldn't even swap the rolls around to suit your desired character. You would then choose a class that your rolls qualified you for. This was intended to make paladins (which high stat requirements) difficult to create and thus rare, you didn't start out saying "I'm gonna make a fighter and so then I'm gonna pick good fighter stats" or whatever.But to humor you, let's look at 32 point buy (this would be tighter with fewer points, or for a MAD class like paladins, etc, of course)FighterSTR 18DEX 12CON 14INT 10WIS 10CHA 10ClericSTR 10DEX 12CON 14INT 10WIS 18CHA 10If you wanted more STR and CHA for melee and turning undead you could alternately do 14/12/12/10/16/14 at the cost of some WIS and CONRogueSTR 10DEX 18CON 12INT 14WIS 10CHA 10WizardSTR 10DEX 14CON 12INT 18WIS 10CHA 10All of these are more than reasonable to play, if not ruthlessly min-maxed. Zero dump stats on any of them. And you don't absolutely *need* that 18. You could start with a 16, or even spread around to a bunch of 14s. Some of the most interesting characters have flaws or take racial modifiers against their primary stats. One of my favorite chars back in the day was a full orc wizard who took that -2 and started with a modified 16, was a lot of fun.
>>3675336>This is fundamentally wrong, and stems from you viewing the game as *needing* to min-max and munchkin and power game, rather than play your character.>proceeds to show only examples with dumped stats despite cheating with a massive point buy budgetNot sure if retarded or bot.
>>3675383>an average score of 10 is a dump statNot a bot, just retarded.Different games use different point buy budgets, and in tabletop it’s whatever your DM thinks is appropriate for the power level of the campaign. NWN2 used 32, which is why I chose that. NWN1 used 30. ToEE used 25 iirc, which is more standard. WotR used what 25 but you start at 10 and not 8? Theres a million different variations of point buy rules, the specifics are unimportant when discussing the broader context.Point being, you can still reasonably specialize a character and make them decent at their role without dumping their stats into oblivion to harvest every ounce of optimization out of them, which is sacrificing roleplaying for munchkin min-maxing. It is silly to say that you’ll let your teammates down if you don’t roll characters like a Cheeto-encrusted sweatlord.
>>3675336Videogames are too rigid.
>>3675336>not a single point put into a non-useful statD&D brain.
>>3675473>puts points into non-useful stats specifically to avoid having dump stats>”not a single point into a non-useful stat”Grim.
>>3675420>average>10This has to be written by a bot of some kind
>>3675336>actually you can totally play D&D without dumpstatting>makes a cleric that can't turn undead with 32 point buy
>>3675548>what is the mean of 3d6, rounded down
>>3675551>noooooooooo you can't turn undead with 14 CHA, you just, you just can't, okayThe seething in this thread by assblasted munchkins is something else.
>>3675520>no wise wizard>no charismatic rogue>no hardy cleric>no clever fighterdumpy builds
>>3675614This desu, this is why Sawyer tried his best to make a system that discourages dump stats and to his credit it's very close to his ideal. The real issue with PoE is that it encourages an MMO style of character role, where you are either DPS, Damage avoidance or Support.
>>3675693That's really part of the whole identity crisis of the game, there's no real innovation in it at all, it's a reaction to other games. "Fixing" D&D is a mistake.
>>3675693And what did we get for it? Muscle wizards and everyone dumping stats to 3
>>3675725That's because you want to play a wizard that does damage, if you want a control wizard you'd focus on Int and Per, or if you wanted a tanky wizard you'd focus on Res and Int. Ironically in Sawyers attempt to prevent dumpstatting, he created a system that encourages it more than ever.
>>3675729>Sawyers attempt to prevent dumpstattingNo, he merely wanted for the player to choose which stat to dump instead of designing the classes as such as only one way to play them was possible.
>>3675735You don't need to dump any stats in order to make a viable character and play games.
>>3675755people don't dump because they have to, they do it because they want to. some people though, like being told/telling others what to do.shit players. shit devs. everywhere.
Pillars was so bad that I gave up on it around the time you escape the big city. When Aloth turned around and said "Oh yeah I was sent to spy on you". It all felt so disconnected. I've seen people say they enjoy it, but they never explain why.
>>3675899You can enjoy it by ignoring the story and writing entirely and treating it like Icewind Dale. The combat mechanics are good for a potd run or a two.
>>3675725>everyone dumping stats to 3naturally source is your ass ?
>>3675899>I've seen people say they enjoy it, but they never explain why.
>>3676093The box obviously, since it's not in the basket
>>3676093Inside Anne's chest cavity, obviouslty.
>can turn her into a psychotic serial killerbased>character barely changes outside a couple dialoguescringe
>>3676393Blame sóyer autism. Hundred of thousand words wasted on nothing. Nothing spared to be used on people being people.
>>3676093funny fact, this whole battery of tests was created in part by borat's cousin. it's kinda ironic that the theory of mind is a false conception of the human mind due to starting from the perspective of some kind of 'standard' human.
>>3676393I wish she had at least had different battle shouts. It's also weird nobody in your party gives a fuck you're clearly corrupting this girl.
>>3676400Why care when the beginning state was a pile of excrement to begin with?
>>3676400>girlThat just reminds of her dialogue where she says she's 27 when all her other dialogue indicates she's a retarded teen
>>3676403>devs inflate the nominal age of a character so they don't get criticised for having one "too young"A tale as old as time. I still remember that faggot Gaider trying to convince people that the DA: Origins crew were in their early 30s
>>3676393>dumps your ass in the ending>her lesbian ending is happily ever after though
The midget pirate companion in deadfire is so annoying. His whole personality is wanting to fuck everything, including his old man mentor which just felt fucking weird.He's telling me some heartfelt story about his old captain and then suddenly mentions that he wished he would have filled him up with cum.
>>3676543Maybe this is why noone likes Orlans
>>3676444is it that, or is it that the guys writing this shit have the mental age of a teenager?
>>3676571Maybe so, the orlan in pillars 1 isn't much better.
>>3676875>we're so oppressed>all of them are degenerates with a sex addiction of some sortWhat did Josh mean by this?
>>3676543>can be a monk, rogue, or shadowdancer which are all a million times better than Serafen's shitty classes>fun recruitment quest>isn't a whiny little cunt over slaversMirke rules Serafen drools
The worst Deadfire companions are Eder, Aloth, and Pallegina. Eder became retarded, Aloth adds nothing, and Pallegina would have been better as a new character repping the VTC instead of ignoring her character development from the first game.
Can Zahua be used as a main tank?
Those ogre druids in caed nua are so cancer. I hate insect plague
>>3677051That's because druid is by far the strongest class in the game other than cipher. Of course they are ass aids to deal with.
>>3677051If you kill them then they can't attack you.
Do rangers suck in poe1? Having the extra body with the pet is nice but it feels like they don't really achieve much themselves compared to other backline classes.Like compare what they do compared to a caster or a ranged rogue shitting out damage. idk maybe I'm not building them right.
>>3677072>Do rangers suck in poe1?They suck massive dick until you get stormcaller. Then they become gods because they basically get a druid's strongest ability on 10% proc from basic attacks and they can split every shot between like 4 targets.
Why did they drop the ball with soulbound items in 2 so badly?
Man I did love PoE 1, but looking back I do think the dialog and characters were pretty mediocre. I was the target audience though and had a ton of fun with it at release. I could never get into PoE 2 though. I really hated the setting. Give me knights and castles and European-themed kino, not brown Polynesian shit. And somehow the characters were even worse. Nobody in an RPG should have a hick southern accent. Sorry.
>>3677416I liked Deadfire way more when I dropped all the real companions and only used sidekicks and hired adventurers and went full RDC nationalist bringing civilization to these retarded fish people.
>>3676982The only sidekick I didn't like was Konstanten because of how anachronistic his voice acting and dialogue is to the setting. Bringing him to SSS isn't worth it either unlike Ydwin/Vatnir for BoW or Fassina for FS.
>>3677442>hired adventurersThis is the only way to play modern RPGs.
>>3677416>but looking back I do think the dialog and characters were pretty mediocreThey were straight garbage. CRPG revival just started back then so we had nothing to compare them with, but Kingmaker alone absolutely and utterly destroys it in likability.
>lots of unique gear locked behind bounties>doing them throws so much exp at you that it breaks the game completelyThis shit is annoying. I thought sawyer was the balance man?
>>3678242>balance man>insane disparity in class power (cipher, priest, druid, monk vs the rest)>insane disparity in weapon power (some uniques and soulbounds make the rest of the class useless)The only good ideas in poe are the hit-graze-crit system and martial classes having active powers (but then again, you can do the same in pathfinder framework and especially in WOTR).
I feel like the class disparity isn't that bad really, at least compared to most crpgs. Yeah priests, druids etc are busted but every class has their use and a place in a party. Fighters are kind of mid but they are practically unkillable a lot of the time and allow the busted backline classes to do their thing. Rangers are shit but the extra body really comes in handy sometimes.Like compare the worst pillars class to something like bg 1 and 2 monk, or half the subclasses in pathfinder which are either striaght downgrades or bugged
Will they forget that a huge chunk of the setting was racist to orlans i wonder
>>3678462Doubt it. It's so empowering for niggerlans to ignore it. Your new and wholesome companion is yet another sex obsessed wretch to boot.
>>3678242Combine this modhttps://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/729With this https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/732For a better experience
>>3678635Nice these look good.Are there any other good mods you guys recommend? Only ever played these games vanilla
>>3678462Well racism is a unique thing made up by white people that only exists on earth. No-one else anywhere is stupid or evil enough to judge other people on how they look.
>>3678242>playing deadfire>you reach level cap 60% throughDo these devs realize how important the feeling of progression is?
>>3678842Every modern crpg has this problem and I have no idea why, pisses me off to no end.bg3, wotr, deadfire all have you reach level cap way before the end of the game, its so unsatisfying.When did rpg devs forget how to make a proper level curve?
>>3678850I really hope Rogue Trader bumps up the level cap with the second DLC. The first lands you on a level cap neatly like 2 hours before the game ends, but if the second throws even more exp your way, you will hit the cap before the last chapter and it would be unsatisfying too.
>>3669792There's really nothing aggressively bad about PoE I, but nothing outstanding either. The writing was somewhat bloated and somewhat too Californian, but it had good moments too. It was just subtly alright. Deadfire substantially improved the combat mechanics to the point where they are noticeably nice, but writing took a tremendous nosedive. It's still just as bloated, but also loud and obnoxious in addition to that.
>>3676393My entire impression of that bitch was "sorry who are you again? Why the fuck are you here?">>3676543Serafen is a supremely written companion who is a masterclass demonstration on why people are racist against Orlans, cyphers and pirates, and think that slavery is okay. If you play with him in the party for more than 3 hours and do not start seeing the infinite nobility of the idea of every single Orlan, cipher, pirate or Orlan cipher pirate in existence toiling in some mine in chains for the rest of their lives, then you have no soul or media literacy.
>>3678842>>3678850You only hit the cap early because you did all of the optional side-quests.Imagine you could keep levelling, but didn't do those quests. Now you'll be complaining that you're underlevelled and too weak for the end-game.
>>3678916>We have to punish people who like playing our game so as not to filter people who don't.Brilliant.
>>3669792>writingNigger I don't read that slop. I play RPGs for the combat, tactics/strategy, gear-progression and levelling/builds. And Obsidian is absolutely fucking garbage at making a game that's fun in any of those regards
>>3678918Do you want negative reviews from journalists?
>>3678930>combat, tactics/strategy, gear-progression and levelling/builds. Oh, I see where you went wrong. Someone told you to play PoE and you got this instead of Path of Exile.
>>3678916>You only hit the cap early because you did all of the optional side-quests.A good game should design a level cap to accommodate all players. Ideally, there should be a milestone level you can hit by doing main game + chunk of side content and additional level ups that give you smaller rewards until the very end of the game.
>>3678916Making people who actually engage with the game overleveled just so the people who ignore everything and rush the main story don't get filtered isn't the best solution. These rpgs are designed for you to go out and explore the world doing sidequests, if you get overleveled playing the game the intended way then that's bad design.And in the case of bg3 you hit the level cap early even if you aren't exploring much. Deadfire just doing a couple bounties and sidequests completely throws off the level curve, you could do 10% of the side content available and still be overleveled.
>>3678950In the age of Youtube, Twitch and Steam reviews? Sure. But, journalists only play like 4 hours. All you need for them is frontloaded content.
The only way to enjoy Deadfire is by installng the level 33 level cap modAt least you won't stop progressing
>>3680047Now how do you enjoy the original?
>>3680082ehi guess there's IEmod that unfucks certain aspects of gameplay like lower scouting mode move speed
I honestly think that the plot twist of the first game makes the plot of the second game lose its strength.It would be much more impactful if you only discovered the truth about the nature of the gods in the second game.>Berath makes you her herald to resolve the Hollowborn crisis>throughout the game you discover that Woedica is capturing souls to become stronger>the canon end of the first game would be for you to return the souls to the Wheel>Eothas awakens and heads towards Deadfire>second game takes place>only when you arrive in Ukaizo do you discover the truth about the godsThis would put a new perspective on your entire adventure and your choices not only during the second game but your past choices in PoE1.That would be a plot twist that would make me care.
>>3680237Based, this makes too much sense. Too bad it would never happen
>>3680237I feel like the reason they did that was they couldn't be sure they would get another game. Both games only happened because of kickstarter. There's no point saving a big twist for a sequel that might never come.Plus poe1's story would be pretty boring without the twist. You'd have keep Thaos' motivations a mystery for another game (which might not even get made) or rewrite him completely.
>>3669815>no one speaks like thatlolhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrXUcEh0ncE&t=827s
>>3671677or build a party of rangers and pick bear as pet for all of them
>>3680237The plot twist is boring as shit all by itself. Gods in 2 are dreadfully boring on top of it.
>>3670750>LE ATHEISM! BRO!! THERE ARE NO GODSI never really got this part, since apparently humans made Gods millions of years ago or something and they're just as powerful as real Gods and can influence the world in certain ways and if you worship them/do their bidding you can be rewarded (as seen by gifts you're given in PoE2 if you follow what the God asked of you at the end of PoE1) so why *wouldn't* you want to worship a God you agree with here?It's not like you're going to hell anyway since you're just thrown back into the world due to the great wheel or whatever and seemingly certain Gods will give you a better race/life if you worship them and die so like why wouldn't you? It just feels like a way to improve your life and future for free, unless I missed something here?
>>3680405They just seem to have an exception with the word "god".
>>3680405>humans made Godsyeah, that's not how this stuff works. divinity comes before humanity. it's literally an immature atheistic conception of religion, that mankind created it as cope. the whole cosmology is materialistic and born from the mind of materialists.
>>3680416Its a fantasy game, who gives a fuck. It makes sense in the setting.Wannabe christcucks who come here to complain about everything that triggers them are so annoying.
>>3680423you absolutely don't have to give a shit, plenty of things in life go over your head or just don't interest you, i'm sure. but, this has absolutely nothing to do with christianity, it's about what words mean and how people use them to express concepts.
>>3680416It can be connected. Humanity is raw divinity. Every soul contains the spark of the divine, that kind of thing.The soul is a natural force, man is a cocoon or something, then the final form is divine.>that mankind created it as copeI suppose it's all cope. We don't want to be monkeys.
>introduce per encounter resources in deadfire>introduce a blood mage who can literally spam his powers into oblivion by sacrificing a bit of health, easier than a fucking cipherI cannot comprehend
>>3680437The mere existence of a soul is proof of the existence of God.That's why a world in which there are no gods but there is soul doesn't make sense at all.
>>3680423>It makes sense in the setting.It doesn’t, that’s the point, that’s why it rubs people the wrong way. It’s anachronistic projection by a bunch of terminally Californian writers. Ironically, PoE is sovlless.
>>3680508>sovllessHollowborn. The game has a perfect description for itself.
>>3680503>The mere existence of a soul is proof of the existence of God.How so?doesn't sound convincing
>>3680503It really does depends on the setting. As long as you've got a reason, it can make sense.If gods create souls then who created the gods? If the gods can be eternal, natural beings that have always existed, then in another setting the soul could be an eternal, natural force.If you're doing a godhead thing, then the soul is god and god is the soul. So humanity is the divine.
>>3680437yes, souls being manipulable matter reduces them to a natural force, undermining its own conception. it's like the midiclorian shit in the star wars prequels. objective destruction of spirituality.>monkeyswe are apes, not monkeys, but we are apes that know themselves, name themselves. that's an incredible thing. materialistic reductions, that man creates his reality, are comfortable blankets in the face of awareness of awareness and copious brainwashing towards universal responsibility. history is a trap.pillars is a science fiction setting with extremely boring science. they simply can't into religion. shouldn't have had that aspect at all.
>>3680610>objective destruction of spirituality.Devs consider that a feature not a bug
>>3680591An eternal, immortal concept cannot exist in the material world without an immortal creator.Immortality and eternity are synonymous with divinity.This is philosophy 101, fren.Go read Plato.
>>3680648as a matter of fact I did read some Platojust so you wouldn't make the same mistake later on, I want to warn you that what you said directly contradicts the entire concept behind Platonic idealismyou just made yourself look like a pretentious moron
>>3680648>An eternal, immortal concept cannot exist in the material world without an immortal creator.
>>3680848Look at you, philosophlet, panting and sweating as you run through my world of forms. How can you challenge a perfect immortal concept?
>>3680648Could you try not sniffing your own farts for 5 minutes.
yeah i couldn't get through poe because of the purple prose. the games had amazing music and beautiful pre rendered backgrounds. i wish some other developer would go back to prerendered backgrounds like those
>>3680971>beautiful pre rendered backgrounds. i wish some other developer would go back to prerendered backgrounds like thoseConsidering its budget and its engine, it really is a pretty game.
>>3680977Then you see the character and especially the weapon models. Fucking stilettos look like wands made of stone and single handed swords are as shorter than already short arming swords while axes and maces are retardedly huge.
>>3680661lmao chat is this real?
>>3681029>chatget thee hence
>>3681029absolutelythe tldr; version of Platonic Idealism is that everything in existence is a projection of ideas and these ideas are eternal and separate from the physical world. So even if greek pantheon were demiurge type gods [i.e. world creators], which they weren't, the eternal idea of a demiurge god is what would postulate a demiurge god in the physical world according to PlatoPlainly speaking the other anon doesn't know literally the first thing about philosophy and is in fact a classic example of a pretentious retard who is too stupid to understand how stupid he is
>introduced a monk subclass that's just a better cipher in deadfire as you generate Wounds just by using your own wound-expending abilities, leading to infinite special spam loops with certain loadouts and subclassesI cannot comprehend these devs
>hear balance>have a retarded idea of what that word should mean referring to single player gameI cannot comprehend these gaymershttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnR1Y3GlTqs
I guess the pseud-philosopher-anon is not coming back to the thread eh?
>>3682640>being this desperatelol
>>3682671>ignores the post that btfo himlel
>>3682748>swing and a misslmao
>>3682748>every single person on this board is the same guyYeah, all me
>>3682671>every single person on this board is the same guyYeah, all me
