Dragoons became popular because they look cool, but in practice the Jump move is not really that useful. It takes longer than simply attacking, and in practice the damage-per-second (or damage-per-turn in FF3) tends to even out the same as if you had just attacked multiple turns in a row. It also allows the Dragoon character to avoid damage, but most of the time I either DON'T want to avoid damage, or avoiding the damage won't matter.If the enemy is using single-target attacks, then I need to be cautious with keeping vulnerable units alive (notably a white mage). A Dragoon is NOT a vulnerable unit, they have high HP and high Defense, not the best but much better than a mage. By Jumping, I reduce the amount of targets the enemy can choose. In a party of 4, my white mage has a 1/4 chance of getting attacked, but if my Dragoon Jumps, it becomes 1/3!If the enemy is using multi-target attacks, then I'm going to cast party-wide heals afterward, so most of the time avoiding the damage with Jump won't matter because the Dragoon is getting healed anyway. Sure there's a bit more to it than that (i.e. heal spell might not fully heal the damage taken) but generally it holds true.Bad game design! But they do look cool.
>>3695914>By Jumping, I reduce the amount of targets the enemy can choose. In a party of 4, my white mage has a 1/4 chance of getting attacked, but if my Dragoon Jumps, it becomes 1/3!Only if your battle system is programmed like ass.Good enemy AI should still be able to consider a jumped Dragoon as an eligible target without forcefully correcting it as though the target was dead/otherwise taken out of combat.
>>3695916...why?Attacking someone you can't hit is a stupid thing to do. Obviously if you want your AI to act smart you wouldn't make them target someone it can't hit.
>>3695914They were rather useful in FF Tactics (ignore height) and when Ramza had a solo fight with Wiegraf before he became Belias.
>>3695918>Obviously if you want your AI to act smart you wouldn't make them target someone it can't hit.If the AI is smart as you claim, then it absolutely should be allowed to target the space where a jumped Dragoon is. What if the enemy is slower than the Dragoon in turn priority and can hit it later in the round once the Dragoon in question has landed?You think you're smart for observing a grade-school level statistics "problem" that doesn't actually exist.
>>3695914Dragons were birthed for a single boss fight in FF3. This wasn't rare with 3's design with many classes being mainly for one dungeon.The thing did always a group attack, so jumping meant not getting hit. And anyone that wasn't a dragoon died.
>>3695920>What if the enemy is slower than the Dragoon in turn priority and can hit it later in the round once the Dragoon in question has landed?FFIV demonstrated this with Kain and Kain's usefulness did not increase. Kain didn't avoid damage, as you think you brilliantly point out, but Kain spent two ATB turns for 1 attack just to get smacked. OP's point is still proven when you're arguing a smarter enemy still overrides the claimed benefit of the dragoon. So the question has to be asked, what is the use of the dragoon when the enemy will not succumb to the jump gimmick when the dragoon simultaneously reduces its own damage output to soak damage when there is a knight that already soaks damage more efficiently without sacrificing damage output?
>>3696007The discussion was not about how "good" Dragoon is. The discussion was purely mechanical.Objectively, it is a design flaw if a jumped Dragoon is not an eligible target for the enemy AI (or hell, even your own party) since there are strategies for either side that can rely on taking advantage of action priority to time damage, a heal, etc. aimed at a Dragoon that is not yet, but will become, a hittable target before the action occurs.ATB games usually have "windup" that determines how far back in the queue an action falls when it's queued up. Round-based games obviously have innate action priority based on speed, as well as individual commands' priority modifiers (if any).
>>3695914I would have thought it was pretty clear it was not a great gimmick since nobody else ever tried to imitate it. Seems majority of developers out there are not really a fan of a character that just removes themselves from the battlefield for 1-2 rounds to do almost double damage. It was purely a turn based game gimmick they were trying out.It has only ever been useful when fighting Odin or a final boss that has a party wipe attack.
>>3695914Dragoons exist solely for the Garuda battle in FF3 as a way to avoid burst damage.
>>3696007>but Kain spent two ATB turns for 1 attack just to get smackedYou're ignoring that in games with rows Jump means doing equivalent damage to a front-liner from the back row.In FF4 you are supposed to run a backline of Rydia-Rosa-Kain
>>3697045Moves that remove a combatant from the field temporarily have always been good, both from an offensive and defensive standpoint.
>>3695918>...why?Because your average person picking up a video game to play is not trying to beat Skynet levels of super computation. They're trying to have fun while unwinding. The goal of the comp controlled enemies is to offer resistance to the player's advance and little else.Part of the reason why enemies in random encounters tend to be pushovers is to give an opportunity for the players to try out their new gear, new spells, new skills, and do it in a very low risk environment. You up the difficulty too much and players start to turtle inward and rely on what they already know and that really sucks when you then turn of the difficulty a notch, relying on your players to be smart enough to try out the new tools you gave them, but they didn't because the enemies were overtuned, and now the completely reasonable content that would've been a cakewalk is now a chore because i order for the player to get their old strategy to work in the new dungeon that had the new mechanic(s) in mind in it's creation they need to level grind. Then they complain that the dungeon is either "too difficult" or the "grind is boring" because they were too scared to try something new and all your feedback is pointing at the new dungeon instead of the overtuned enemies that caused the initial turtling.>Attacking someone you can't hit is a stupid thing to do.So too is it when the comp decides to spread out damage across an entire party instead of focus firing everything on one character like you do to the enemy teams. Doubly so for not bee-lining for your healer every time, but that doesn't feel fun to experience. If the comp were alive it wouldn't be having fun, fortunately it's not, it's just a bot. So it can make stupid decisions and sub-optimal plays for the benefit of the players' enjoyment.>Obviously if you want your AI to act smart you wouldn't make them target someone it can't hit.A comp that's smart *enough* to a point. Again, we do not want Skynet.
Still the best dragoon.
>>3695914>Dragoons became popular because they look cool.Stopped reading right there. Looking cool is all I need.
>>3695914The answer is simple. Jump needs a bigger multiplier and the ability break the damage cap. Make them the charge and big damage class. The concept of the Dragoon is a monster hunting knight, so the idea of being able to deal collosal burst damage while avoiding damage readying it makes sense. Maybe give Dragoon some specific anti-monster skills to match. Jump could deal 3x damage to big monsters but only 2x to humans and small enemies etc.
>>3697567>Jump needs a bigger multiplier and the ability break the damage capYeah. Dragon Horn + Dragoon Boots + a spear does that in FFVI, and it's great even in a game with a lot of powerful options.
>>3695914>not usefulKain killed Zeromus while the rest of my team was dead in both the OG FF4 and the 3D remake. Jumpniggers are based.
>>3697282uhhhh pic not related?
>>3697282Fly and Dig both suck though. If they did way more damage they'd be better, but even then you're still giving your opponent a free opportunity to switch Pokemon.
>>3695914AoE heals in FFIV are split per target. There's a good reason to jump.
>>3697611or just use protect on the 100% locked in and telegraphed move.
